Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

[Rory Conaway]

And not even close to accurate.

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jeff Broadwick - Lists
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2023 12:49 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

Stop it please.  I enjoy this list for tidbits of industry info and it’s 
friendly banter.  I’m even interested in Jaime’s breakfast and weather girls.

If the politics was light and friendly, I’d be all in…this is anything but.
Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com


On Mar 25, 2023, at 3:45 PM, Jan-GAMs 
mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net>> wrote:


Darin, the real challenge is the station the right-wingers watch.  FOX.  
Documented liars, well documented liars.  They make shit up and present it as 
fact.  This has been admitted to by their owner Murdock.  They make up news 
just to drive their advertisement income.  Why the hell should anyone watch 
that channel is beyond belief.  The problem is, this has been a known factoid 
for years, FOX makes shit up and presents it as news.  Until Congress makes 
laws concerning what a so-called "NEWS" channel can present as truth and still 
have a license to broadcast, I'm never going to trust any "NEWS" source.  
Especially FOX.  Reagan did away with the "Fairness Doctrine" back in the 
'80's, which more or less ended news reporting facts and brought in news 
reporting as hype.  Facts and news have been at odds since Roger Ailes left the 
Nixon WH and started up FOX news.  Real news may never recover.
On 3/25/23 11:02, Darin Steffl wrote:
Evan and others,

You guys really are delusional if you don't see what the Republicans are doing 
to strip away rights. At least call them out if you're going to vote their way.

Everything I shared were statements of fact easily verified with a Google 
search with reputable sources.

It's sad that I can share facts and then some want to shut down the 
conversation. Is that because you don't want to be wrong or don't think you're 
associated with people who hold more extreme views than you?

I'm asking you not to be complicit in the hate that's in the republican party. 
Speak out and tell your representatives to stop attacking people. Be kind and 
empathetic.

Evan, why are you worried about me for calling out hateful people? I'm worried 
for you if you think that's wrong for me to do. You should be against all the 
attacks on human rights too. I believe you and your wife, Sandra, to be good 
people. But there are some on the right who would tell your wife to go back to 
her country because they're xenophobic and racist. Wouldn't that bother you if 
someone said that to your wife?

Call out the bad that any party partakes in. During the Floyd riots, I didn't 
agree with any violence or destruction of property and I'm in full support of 
people being arrested who committed crimes. Same with the people on January 6. 
But why does the right think January 6 was a peaceful tour and no one should be 
arrested? It's hypocritical.

Same with law enforcement. We shouldn't support any profession unconditionally. 
That's dangerous. I support good cops but think we should hold bad ones 
accountable. This is all common sense stuff but the right thinks all cops are 
good which is false. There's bad people in every profession so let's weed them 
out. I have some sick friends and family that think the murder of George Floyd 
was justified, even after watching the full video of him being suffocated!! 
Sick people with sick minds.

The rest of the world watches our country with disgust that half the people 
hate themselves and their country so much that they continue to vote 
republican. The new republican party is far more different and extreme than the 
old one, which was somewhat reasonable and bipartisan.

There is no question that democrats are better for all people in terms of human 
rights, equality, and protections against employers and corporations. They pass 
more bills to protect people, the environment, and the world than the right. 
That does NOT mean the party is perfect and that there aren't shady politicians 
on both sides. It all comes back to calling out the bad things either party 
tries to do so we end up in the middle.

Being in the middle, centrist, should not be an extreme view. The facts and 
opinions I shared are centrist views so if you think I'm crazy or you're 
offended, it's likely that your views are more extreme than you think. I could 
list more than enough Democrat ideas I don't agree with and just as many fiscal 
republican ideas I do agree with.

On Sat, Mar 25, 2023, 12:03 PM Robert 
mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:
What we have here is a failure to communicate.   I may sound like a c theorist 
but what we have is two oligarchical factions that are fighting for control of 
an electoral mass of minds and using all the propaganda tools to manage that.   
The Monster money from both "factions" (because they aren't really one side 

Re: [AFMUG] Public broadband failures

[Rory Conaway]

Gotta know someone.  We got screwed in the RDOF bid multiple ways.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2021 5:27 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Public broadband failures

Provo Utah was a muni system.  I offered $4m when they got tired of it.  
Instead they sold to Google for $2.  As in two dollars.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 12, 2021, at 5:15 PM, Nate Burke  wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know a compiled list of community broadband projects that have 
> received federal funds then failed or got sold off?
> 
> One of the counties in our service area is in the process of 'thinking about 
> building a fiber network that we(they) will run ourselves'  We're looking for 
> examples we can give them where the government built then network, but was 
> then unable to continue to run it, or it didn't play out the way they 
> expected.
> 
> Here in Illinois, another county just recently transferred their BTOP funded 
> Fiber network to a private entity because they were convinced they didn't 
> want to run it anymore (there's more to the story, but that's the long and 
> short from what I gather)  There's gotta be stories like this all over, has 
> there been a list compiled somewhere?
> 
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Re: [AFMUG] WiFi Stds compliant beamforming sectors in 2.4?

[Rory Conaway]

SkyPilot only turned on 1 antenna at a time, thus PTP.

Rory


From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 10:59 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WiFi Stds compliant beamforming sectors in 2.4?


I think SkyPilot argued that the CPE was a point to point and used the higher 
Tx power only in the upload direction. I think that held up to scrutiny, but 
not sure how helpful that was.  It probably didn't hurt.


On 10/14/2020 1:55 PM, Mark Radabaugh wrote:



On Oct 14, 2020, at 1:38 PM, Brian Webster 
mailto:i...@wirelessmapping.com>> wrote:

I think it made it to 5 GHz too because SkyPilot had radios that ran under PTP 
rules.


Yes and no….   this is an active petition from Radwin before the FCC to allow 
higher power using beamforming antennas in U-NII-1 and U-NII-3:

https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/10618241749047/Radwin%20Petition%20for%20Rulemaking.pdf

"RADWIN seeks modification of Section 15.407 of the rules to allow devices that 
emit multiple directional beams sequentially in the U-NII-1 and U-NII-3 bands 
to operate at power limits that are allowed for point-to-point systems in those 
bands."
 WISPA, the WISPA Policy Committee, as well as Cambium have supported this 
proposal but it has not see action from the FCC.
Details of the fine points are in above reference PDF including a discussion of 
the current rules.

Mark




Thank you,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com


-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Grip
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 11:33 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WiFi Stds compliant beamforming sectors in 2.4?

Well, it is more like a PtP to the client.

Anybody ever had hands on a GO AP?

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of 
Ken Hohhof
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 11:22 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WiFi Stds compliant beamforming sectors in 2.4?

The infamous "Vivato Rule".
http://www.vivato.com/pdfs/Vivato_Technical_White_Paper.pdf

Some would say the FCC was asleep at the wheel when they allowed this.  It is 
apparently for 2.4 GHz only.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of 
Harold Bledsoe
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 8:45 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WiFi Stds compliant beamforming sectors in 2.4?

There's a couple of things to break down here.  One is that there are 2 major 
kinds of beamforming - analog and digital.  The ones you mention (and I'll add 
Go Networks to the list) were using analog beamforming.  These are antenna 
arrays that can be phased together to make a stronger beam and is steerable.  
The chip-based beamforming in the WiFi standard is a bit different and you 
don't get this sort of powerful beam out of it.  That kind of digital 
beamforming is more useful for nulls mu-mimo isolation that would be useful in 
an indoor wifi environment.

I'm not too familiar with the cnmedusa design, but I get the impression it is 
more of an array of fixed sectors that have physically different coverage areas 
that are connected to different radio chains.  So that is yet another sort of 
variation.

One thing that made the analog beamforming systems achieve better coverage was 
that the FCC allowed (maybe they still do?) higher EIRP from this specific type 
of system.  So it had physically more power and punch to it.

I am personally not aware of any companies actively developing analog 
beamforming systems like those older ones.  It gets significantly more 
difficult for those designs to support the sort of advanced macs that came 
after 11n - 11ax supports MU-MIMO and OFDMA for example which would be 
challenging to support with an analog beamformer.


On 10/13/20, 3:42 PM, "AF on behalf of Jeremy Grip"  
wrote:

   A few years ago, when the electrical utility trashed the 900 spectrum with 
“smart” meters, I did a forklift upgrade of a bunch of 900 PtMP with some old 
Wavion beamforming sectors talking to ubnt clients in 2.4. I was surprised that 
I got just about the same coverage that I had with 900 (Trango) and of course 
better throughput. Those original Wavions were b/g; I’ve since found a couple 
of .11n versions from the brief last gasp of Alvarion (R.I.P.) that did even 
better. Anybody know if anybody’s currently producing a beamforming 2.4 sector 
that will talk to standards compliant 11n radios?

   I’m assuming that the beamforming saved this location—one tower plus a 
couple of other little nodes in a little spread out village in the middle of a 
dense National Forest of mixed tall evergreens and hardwood. I just don’t 

[AFMUG] looking for contacts with Crown Castle and American Tower

[Rory Conaway]

If anyone has a contact number that I can talk to today, I'd appreciate it.

Rory Conaway * Triad Wireless * CEO
4226 S. 37th Street * Phoenix * AZ 85040
602-426-0542
r...@triadwireless.net<mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>
www.triadwireless.net<http://www.triadwireless.net/>

" Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and enjoy working in the 
present toward the future."

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[AFMUG] Anyone familiar with the Agilent FieldFox analyzer

[Rory Conaway]

Trying to get it into NA mode but only see CAT and SA when selecting Mode.

Rory Conaway * Triad Wireless * CEO
4226 S. 37th Street * Phoenix * AZ 85040
602-426-0542
r...@triadwireless.net<mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>
www.triadwireless.net<http://www.triadwireless.net/>

" When one door closes, if another door doesn't open, go through a window"

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Re: [AFMUG] email client

[Rory Conaway]

We use Outlook including the entire Microsoft Office Suite.  We have our own 
Exchange Server though.

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adair Winter
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2019 6:54 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] email client

I can't imagine actually using a mail client in 2019..


On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 8:53 PM Ken Hohhof 
mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:
Do any of you have an email client you recommend to people who don’t buy 
Outlook?  I checked out the Mail app in Windows 10, and IMHO, it really sucks, 
I wouldn’t recommend it to anybody.
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VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
C: 806.231.7180
http://www.amarillowireless.net
[https://docs.google.com/a/amarillowireless.net/uc?id=0B-KeaiwIRBHEQl9leFFvVjZuWmc=download]

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Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity

[Rory Conaway]

The affect of windmills goes beyond the 140-330K or so they directly kill every 
year.  The noise is affecting mating for them as well as other species.  I’m 
all for solar assuming they get Peroksvite cranked up soon but I’m not a fan of 
windmills.

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 9:52 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity

I read an article once which claimed that to satisfy worldwide electric demand 
via wind alone would require extracting 100% of the energy from the wind.  That 
is to say, it would require stopping the wind.

-Adam
On 8/22/2019 5:25 PM, Bill Prince wrote:

I am unschooled in this, but since windmills extract energy from wind, they 
would actually DECREASE wind locally. Might be pretty hard to measure though.



bp




On 8/22/2019 2:18 PM, Carl Peterson wrote:
I believe that mountain lions go downwind to stalk their prey. Is there any 
chance that the increased wind caused by the windmills has led to an influx of 
mountain lions because their prey is easier to stalk? Somebody should look into 
this.

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 4:08 PM Carl Peterson 
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:
Thats completely bogus.  Windmills don't attract cats.  The wind from the 
windmills blows away the smell of predators which causes the mice and birds to 
come out.  Its the mice and birds that attract the cats.

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 4:04 PM Chuck McCown 
mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
Well I hear that windmills attract cats.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:15 PM, Bill Prince 
> mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Based upon what I've read, the danger to birds is way, way overstated. 
> Probably at least an order of magnitude. Cats are far more dangerous to birds.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
>> On 8/22/2019 1:10 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
>> You are diving down on a mouse that was disturbed by the tip vortex off a 
>> 300mph passing blade tip and swap...   300mph _next_ blade tip knocks you 
>> into oblivion...
>>
>>> On 08/22/2019 01:01 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>>> Well, that explains the bats, but what about the raptors? Do they just die 
>>> from disgust because they think it's an eyesore?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 6:53 PM Chuck McCown 
>>> mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> 
>>> >> wrote:
>>>
>>> There is a low pressure zone on the lee side of the blade that
>>> apparently is
>>> dramatic enough of a pressure change to cause some kind of lung
>>> damage to
>>> bats.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Robert Andrews
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 5:27 PM
>>> To: af@af.afmug.com 
>>> >
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Reselling Electricity
>>>
>>> That was back in 2012, and the blades were 75 Meters now blades are
>>> exceeding 104 Meters
>>>
>>> On 08/21/2019 04:23 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
>>>  > Ummm   blade tip speed is still pretty darn high. Just because
>>> it looks
>>>  > slow doesn't mean that it is...  180Mph...
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>> https://gizmodo.com/the-worlds-biggest-wind-turbine-blades-are-so-long-thei-5930272
>>>  >
>>>  > On 08/21/2019 04:13 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
>>>  >> Not the new giant ones. They move very slowly & the birds & bats
>>> just fly
>>>  >> around them.
>>>  >>
>>>  >>
>>>  >> bp
>>>  >> 
>>>  >>
>>>  >> On 8/21/2019 3:11 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>>>  >>> Wind kills bats and raptors and migratory waterfowl
>>>  >>
>>>  >
>>>
>>> -- AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com 
>>> >
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -- AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com 
>>> >
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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PORT NETWORKS

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707


--

Carl Peterson

PORT NETWORKS

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707





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Re: [AFMUG] Ceragon 39GHz

[Rory Conaway]

I have several 39GHz radios I’ll let go for a decent price.  Shipping is going 
to be expensive though.

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2019 9:54 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ceragon 39GHz


Apart from non-compliant operation:  I think in some non-FCC countries they can 
use 39ghz.  I don't know how to connect with international buyers though, and 
even if I did I don't know what they would be willing to pay.  I gave up on it.

-Adam


On 10/2/2019 12:26 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:
If they have Ethernet interfaces, and you're far from civilization, and you 
don't mind the power usage: free house to garage link.

On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 11:21 AM Jason McKemie 
mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>> 
wrote:
Is there any value in these other than scrap metal? --
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Re: [AFMUG] Saisei Hardware

[Rory Conaway]

Check Ebay.  We use a lot of the Quanta servers.

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adair Winter
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 9:01 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Saisei Hardware

We never buy new servers. Send the specs over to the guys at 
https://www.stikc.com/ and they will help you get a matching box.
Usually about half the cost of a new one.

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 10:00 AM Kurt Fankhauser 
mailto:lists.wavel...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Does anyone have an recommend hardware for a Saisei traffic shaping box? 
Powercode gave me some recommended Dell servers but looking for something a 
little more cost effecting, looking to filter between 1G-2G. Didn't know if 
there was a nice cheap box out there preferable something that's not too deep 
because one tower i have has a shallow rack only 23 inches depth.
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C: 806.231.7180
http://www.amarillowireless.net
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Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave is being annoying

[Rory Conaway]

We have been working with the Navigator for a few months.  It still had some 
bugs to work out in terms of locking up every few days.  We just got new 
software a few days ago and so far, looks good.  If it make it another week, 
I’m ordering another one.

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 3:09 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave is being annoying

For what it's worth, we've had two Bridgewave FL4G-LITE 80ghz links running for 
about a year with no issues.

On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 3:36 PM Josh Baird 
mailto:joshba...@gmail.com>> wrote:
There are people here who have the units deployed.  I believe Rory has a link.

Josh

On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 2:35 PM David Sovereen 
mailto:david.sover...@mercury.net>> wrote:
I keep hoping someone here will drink the Bridgewave Navigator kool-aid and 
report back but no one has. I’m about to pull the trigger, except I can’t get 
Streakwave (not a usual vendor of mine but one of two companies Jim Norton at 
Bridgewave said are stocking distributors) to take an order. CTI is 
recommending SIAE but they don’t have 10 Gbps interfaces and I keep reading of 
disappointing experiences with their products like yours.

Dave
Sent from my iPad

On Feb 8, 2019, at 2:27 PM, Jason McKemie 
mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>> 
wrote:
I'm a bit unhappy with the SIAE link that I have in place.  While it has been 
pretty solid once I got it up and running, the initial process had some issues. 
 Then I lost a radio due to a power surge (which I didn't think should have 
caused a failure - nothing else on the tower died) and the replacement radio is 
throwing out errors that point to a failure at some point in the future, which 
they won't troubleshoot with me unless I pay for additional support.  That, 
coupled with the fact that the radios now cost not quite double what I 
originally paid, has me looking elsewhere.

The single radio sparing on the Navigator is huge for me as well.

I guess I need to hear some reviews from people who have Navigators in the wild.

-Jason

On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 9:06 AM Seth Mattinen 
mailto:se...@rollernet.us>> wrote:
On 2/8/19 12:51 AM, Jason McKemie wrote:
> This is a bit unsettling. I'm looking some Navigator links. The
> price/performance seems pretty good IMO, and the single radio sparing is
> a big plus. I remember Nathan from Wisper swearing off Bridgewave
> because of some random issues with links as well.
>


Yeah I really don't know what to think. I have microwave gear from SAF,
Exalt, and Cambium/Ceragon and those have all been rock solid in all
kinds of places. I thought these would be in the same category but it's
been nothing but problems. The 10+ minute reboot times are beyond
frustrating too.

One thing that struck me as odd was that when I did back to back testing
on the bench with waveguide that even in what I felt should be perfect
RF conditions they wouldn't reach full modulation. Support said that was
to be expected because of the attenuators being used and since these
were new and I was new to Bridgewave I went ahead and deployed them.

Down for 2 hours, so many reboots later, and it finally came up again.
Why? Nobody knows. But now it won't modulate above QAM on one side.
These Bridgewaves weren't cheap and even if I'm able to get to the
bottom of why they are being crap I don't think I'll ever be able to
trust them without a parallel link from another vendor.


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[AFMUG] Tales from the Towers Chapter 66 posted

[Rory Conaway]

Rory Conaway * Triad Wireless * CEO
4226 S. 37th Street * Phoenix * AZ 85040
602-426-0542
r...@triadwireless.net<mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>
www.triadwireless.net<http://www.triadwireless.net/>

" Being a pitcher is a great thing.  You get to break other people's 
belongings, not have to pay for it, and still gain respect."

Oliver Wendell Holmes

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Re: [AFMUG] Managed whole house mesh wifi

[Rory Conaway]

Mimosa does 1 repeater, AC Cubes do 2 repeaters at least, and Unifi is 
unlimited.  All 3 of them have cloud management.  Why pay a monthly fee if it 
isn’t necessary?  Does Callix have additional features beyond connectivity like 
blocking torrents or parental controls?

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 8:35 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Managed whole house mesh wifi

Designed for single-device (or more if mesh\repeater\etc.) is needed vs. 
assuming a large ecosystem.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
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<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

From: "Rory Conaway" mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>>
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 6:20:13 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Managed whole house mesh wifi
What is the advantage of Calix versus Unifi?

Rory

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
David Coudron
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:02 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Managed whole house mesh wifi

Chuck,

We’d be pretty interested in that.   Love to see that happen.

Cory, can you reach out to us in the meantime, we’d like to learn more and some 
decisions to make soon about our directed for managed whole house Wifi.

Regards,

David Coudron
david.coud...@advantenon.com<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>  |  Mobile: 
612-991-7474

Advantenon, Inc.
i...@advantenon.com<mailto:i...@advantenon.com>  |  3500 Vicksburg Lane N, 
Suite 315, Plymouth, MN 55447  |  
www.advantenon.com<http://www.advantenon.com/>  |  Phone: 800-704-4720  |  
Local: 612-454-1545



From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
ch...@wbmfg.com<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:38 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Managed whole house mesh wifi

Calix historically sold to ILECs via dedicated regional sales reps.  You had 
personalized service.
They didn’t have a product with universal appeal until they did the 844.

I will volunteer to stock and sell their products via my ecommerce site if they 
will give me enough margin to make it worth it.

From: Ken Hohhof
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:03 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Managed whole house mesh wifi

Agreed, but that’s their business model.  I think similar to the companies that 
OEM “gateways” to the likes of AT and Comcast.  These are not supposed to 
find their way onto Amazon and Walmart online stores for end users to buy 
themselves and then try to figure out how to link them into their service 
provider’s operations systems.

I guess our customers could make the same complaint about us.  Maybe a few 
WISPs have online ordering portals, but I’m guessing very few.  Not talking 
about put your location in here and a salesperson will call you, but actually 
sign up and schedule installation, similar to what we used to do with dialup 
service (where we just needed to assign a username and password, and publish a 
list of local access numbers).


From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Jon Langeler
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:37 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Managed whole house mesh wifi

I think it’s a turn off when they don’t have an online store somewhere to 
simply order a 10 or 100 pack, or anything. But I got that vibe from them as 
well.
Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.


On Dec 23, 2018, at 1:14 AM, Jason Wilson 
mailto:ja...@remotelylocated.com>> wrote:
How does one get Calix to talk to you?  They seemed less than interested to 
talk at WISPAPalooza and no call from the lead generated at he show.
Jason Wilson
Remotely Located
Providing High Speed 

Re: [AFMUG] Managed whole house mesh wifi

[Rory Conaway]

What is the advantage of Calix versus Unifi?

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of David Coudron
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:02 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Managed whole house mesh wifi

Chuck,

We’d be pretty interested in that.   Love to see that happen.

Cory, can you reach out to us in the meantime, we’d like to learn more and some 
decisions to make soon about our directed for managed whole house Wifi.

Regards,

David Coudron
david.coud...@advantenon.com  |  Mobile: 
612-991-7474

Advantenon, Inc.
i...@advantenon.com  |  3500 Vicksburg Lane N, 
Suite 315, Plymouth, MN 55447  |  
www.advantenon.com  |  Phone: 800-704-4720  |  
Local: 612-454-1545



From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:38 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Managed whole house mesh wifi

Calix historically sold to ILECs via dedicated regional sales reps.  You had 
personalized service.
They didn’t have a product with universal appeal until they did the 844.

I will volunteer to stock and sell their products via my ecommerce site if they 
will give me enough margin to make it worth it.

From: Ken Hohhof
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:03 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Managed whole house mesh wifi

Agreed, but that’s their business model.  I think similar to the companies that 
OEM “gateways” to the likes of AT and Comcast.  These are not supposed to 
find their way onto Amazon and Walmart online stores for end users to buy 
themselves and then try to figure out how to link them into their service 
provider’s operations systems.

I guess our customers could make the same complaint about us.  Maybe a few 
WISPs have online ordering portals, but I’m guessing very few.  Not talking 
about put your location in here and a salesperson will call you, but actually 
sign up and schedule installation, similar to what we used to do with dialup 
service (where we just needed to assign a username and password, and publish a 
list of local access numbers).


From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Jon Langeler
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:37 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Managed whole house mesh wifi

I think it’s a turn off when they don’t have an online store somewhere to 
simply order a 10 or 100 pack, or anything. But I got that vibe from them as 
well.
Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.


On Dec 23, 2018, at 1:14 AM, Jason Wilson 
mailto:ja...@remotelylocated.com>> wrote:
How does one get Calix to talk to you?  They seemed less than interested to 
talk at WISPAPalooza and no call from the lead generated at he show.
Jason Wilson
Remotely Located
Providing High Speed Internet to out of the way places
530-651-1736 Office
530-748-9608 Cell
www.remotelylocated.com

On Dec 22, 2018, at 7:35 PM, Darin Steffl 
mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com>> wrote:
You have to buy direct from Calix.

We upped our plan prices $10 per month for new subs and now give the router 
"free". We're slowly migrating existing customers to these new plans and 
putting the Calix in their home. We're about 60% complete with the process. It 
dramatically reduces the number of tech support calls related to wifi issues. 
Huge time saver, money maker, and keeping customers happy and churn low.

On Sat, Dec 22, 2018, 8:56 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Chuck McCown
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2018 7:23 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Managed whole house mesh wifi

I buy direct. I think that is how they do it with everyone.
Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 22, 2018, at 6:20 PM, David Coudron 
mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:
Where do you purchase the Calix equipment from?   Our typical sources don’t 
seem to carry them (Streakwave, Winncom, ISPSupplies, Linktechs, etc.   Are you 
purchasing direct from Calix?

Regards,

David Coudron


From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Darin Steffl
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:34 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Managed whole house mesh wifi

Calix is the only good method today for routers and a mesh solution that can be 
managed by the ISP. Powerline adapters suck and we don't use them anymore. WiFi 
extenders are just as bad and we tell customers to throw them in the garbage. 
They cause more issues than they fix.

We have 850+ Calix GigaCenters in the field and are deploying more of the Mesh 
units. Everything is very easy to provision and we have full visibility into 
the home network. Pricing is pretty good and we get to make money on it instead 
of the customer 

Re: [AFMUG] KP 900mhz flatpanel as 450i AP antenna

[Rory Conaway]

An antenna is an antenna.  If TV antennas were 50 ohms, they would make great 
TV White Space antennas for example.

The only difference from sectors is that these antennas have a higher vertical 
beam pattern.

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 10:12 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] KP 900mhz flatpanel as 450i AP antenna

Anyone using this antenna for a 450-900mhz AP antenna instead of the giant 
sector? Have a couple towers that can't take the wind load and looking for 
alternatives just wondering if anyone else has tried it.

https://www.kpperformance.com/900-mhz-13-5-dbi-dual-pol-flat-panel-antenna


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Re: [AFMUG] Wasps

[Rory Conaway]

We had the same issue with bees.  Even the bee savers guys couldn't do anything 
and we tried 2 of them.  Told us to find some exterminators.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of David M
Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2018 6:05 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wasps

unless google says its true :)



On 11/7/2018 6:10 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
> Doncha know, you can't believe a flippin' thing on Facebook...
>
> -Original Message- From: Jay Weekley
> Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2018 4:33 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wasps
>
> The employee that reported it is our tower guy so he's not chicken and
> has worked around wasps before but apparently this was biblical. Advice
> from Facebook (Jim Patient) says that they are mating.
>
> Dave wrote:
>> Thats what my tower guy does. He tells me dont look them in the eye 
>> and they wont be tempted lol
>>
>>
>> On 11/7/18 4:23 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
>>> i like wasps. They are my friends. Tell your guy to befriend them. 
>>> you cant pet them though, no matter now much you want to. The trick 
>>> is to just be mindful of where they are so you dont injure them, 
>>> then just go about your business as you normally would. They wont 
>>> bug you as long as you dont hurt one
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 3:50 PM >> > wrote:
>>>
>>>     I went and rented a full beekeepers get up for $20 one afternoon
>>>     when I was
>>>     faced with the same thing on a water tower.
>>>     They never even tried to light on me or sting me while climbing
>>>     right
>>>     through a cloud of them.
>>>
>>>     -Original Message-
>>>     From: Jay Weekley
>>>     Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 1:58 PM
>>>     To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>>     Subject: [AFMUG] Wasps
>>>
>>>     One of our primary towers is a retired forestry observation tower
>>>     and it
>>>     has been invaded by 1000's brown wasps. We needed to replace a 
>>> radio
>>>     today and there were so many he didn't think he could safely
>>>     perform the
>>>     work. He even had to be careful climbing down since they were
>>>     swarming
>>>     the entire way. Also, he didn't see any nests so even if we 
>>> could use
>>>     wasp spray we wouldn't know where to use it. What is the best 
>>> way to
>>>     deal with this? Fake owls?
>>>     --     *Jay Weekley*
>>>     *Cyber Broadband
>>>     *
>>>
>>>     --     AF mailing list
>>>     AF@af.afmug.com 
>>>     http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>>
>>>     --     AF mailing list
>>>     AF@af.afmug.com 
>>>     http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>>
>


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Re: [AFMUG] WiFi systems

[Rory Conaway]

They also have yearly support fees and will shut your equipment off if you 
don’t pay.  They also have the same warranty as Ubiquiti.  They make good 
stuff, just have to decide if it’s worth the value.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Layne Sisk
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 2:15 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WiFi systems

Rukus is worth looking at, it is rock solid and we love dealing with it.

Layne Sisk
ServerPlus
801.426.8283, ext 102
[New logo xl]
[http://i.imgur.com/VOz763A.png]
[http://i.imgur.com/xvQYYWa.png]
[http://i.imgur.com/ELG0AB1.png]
[Utah 100]   [fast50-01] [Inc 5000]

From: AF  On Behalf Of Tim Cailloux
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 7:41 AM
To: Animal Farm Mailing List 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WiFi systems

I do MDUs, hotels, and large residential (5000+ feet) with Unifi.

For MDUs, I set a native/default VLAN on all switch ports with no DHCP/IP and 
no routing.  I then selectively enable ports for devices and tenants.  All 
hardware is on a "device only" management VLAN for the Unifi equipment to talk 
with itself and firewall rules to only allow inter-device communication and 
with the Unifi controller.  Each tenant gets their own VLAN (no inter-VLAN 
routing).  WiFi is an open guest network in the common areas with managed 
DNS/click-through authentication.  Port isolation is enabled on the aggregation 
switches to each cascaded switch, and to each AP to limit broadcast domains.

The hotel setup is similar, with VoIP phones in the mix on dedicated "Guest + 
Tagged VoIP VLANs" for all Ethernet ports and dedicated staff WiFi/VLAN 
networks.  802.1x is coming to these networks soon to provide device 
authentication for the managed/corporate devices.

Firmware updates are tested in the lab, then in a trial network, then scheduled 
for deployment during a maintenance window.  APs are scheduled for upgrade 
first, and then switches get upgraded 30 minutes later.  MDUs happen overnight. 
 Hotels happen during the day, at off-peak hours (like 11AM Wednesday) , while 
staffed, in case there's a guest emergency.

tim

On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 10:35 AM Matt Hoppes 
mailto:mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net>> 
wrote:
So you brick the entire network at one time? ;)

What is your application?  Apartments?  Or single dwelling homes?

On Oct 28, 2018, at 10:19, Tim Cailloux 
mailto:t...@southern-internet.com>> wrote:
I'm using Ubiquiti Unifi for my SMB/large residential customers.  It's got 
virtually everything I need to manage, though it's not single pane-of-glass 
monitoring for the entire network.

I'm using Cambium cnPilot for my residential customers, managed through 
cnMaestro with my other Cambium gear.  It works nicely.

(I'm far enough down the path with an installed Ubiquiti footprint that I'm 
unwilling to migrate the Unifi to cnPilot, and Cambium is only now coming out 
with switches that can be managed through cnMaestro.)

tim

On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 11:38 PM Adam Moffett 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I'm curious general if anyone is selling WiFi systems.  Not just a
single router, but some kind of integrated package like AmpliFi.  I see
several options on the market, but AmpliFi is supposed to work with
Ubiquiti's UNMS software.  Something centrally managed like that might
be very attractive to me.  I like the idea that when they all need a
firmware update I just click a button and they all get updated.

-Adam


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Southern Internet -- Locally Owned and Operated
t...@southern-internet.com
(404) 406-9911
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--
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Southern Internet -- Locally Owned and Operated
t...@southern-internet.com
(404) 406-9911
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Re: [AFMUG] Renewed discussion on work vans

[Rory Conaway]

This is a good discussion.  Tire size and ground clearance versus cost per 
mile.  The best vans for off-road from Ford are the up to 2014 E-150/E-250.  We 
get 400,000 miles plus out of them and they can take a beating.  The new 
Transits are 16” tires which is a disappointment and there are few vendors.  We 
are planning on changing those wheels to 17” shortly.Didn’t catch that when 
we bought it.  Did find out the 2014 Chrysler Cargo Mini-Vans are 17” and 
bought one of those also at a great price and they get good gas mileage.

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 1:47 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Renewed discussion on work vans

We have been happy with our Promaster series. We have one with the high top 
long version which you do have to watch on windy days. Having said that, we 
drive it regardless all around West Texas. We have the standard height which is 
barely tall enough for a 6 foot guy to stand up in but it works. It is the 
short wheel base version. Both work well, decent mileage. Lots of room inside. 
We added some $25 Amazon LED's to bothwhich makes findiing stuff bunches easier.

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 3:35 PM Ken Hohhof 
mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:
My techs seem embarrassed to be seen driving a van.  Real men drive pickup 
trucks.  Diesel and dually = especially manly.  And expensive.

If they HAVE to drive one of those sissy vans, then at least it should be a 
medium roof height, tall enough to stand up in while searching for parts and 
tools, but not so tall that you are afraid to drive it on a windy day.  But the 
best medium height option seems to be the Ford Transit, and they also seem 
embarrassed to be seen driving a Ford.  Ram sounds manly, or maybe Chevy.  
Probably a tribal thing, are you a Ford, Chevy or Mopar guy?

In my somewhat rural area, I don’t think the suspension or tires on something 
like a Transit Connect are made for our roads and winter weather, the ground 
clearance also seems inadequate.  Getting to some tower sites in winter or 
after a heavy rain, I sometimes feel like my Forester is marginal, a Transit 
Connect class van would be worse.


From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Paul McCall
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 3:14 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: [AFMUG] Renewed discussion on work vans

Been quite a while since I saw this discussed…

What is the preference for work vans these days?

Transit
Nissan
Promasters
Sprinter

?

Paul , PDMNet
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Re: [AFMUG] Antenna article

[Rory Conaway]

Kumu Networks was working on this too.  I don’t think they have it working yet.

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 2:17 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Antenna article

More throughput? Less latency?

Sure, without Mu-MIMO you can't have more than one CPE talking at the same time 
to the AP, but there's no reason to restrict some CPE from transmitting at the 
same time as the AP.

Maybe some CPE have more to say than others...  by a lot?

I guess it boils down to cost. Is the cost high enough to where you just add it 
to the AP and call it a day or is it low enough where you put it in everything?

What's more costly, the filter or developing a scheduler to accommodate the 
lack of a filter?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
Midwest Internet Exchange
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
The Brothers WISP
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]




From: "castarritt" mailto:castarr...@gmail.com>>
To: af@af.afmug.com
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 4:11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Antenna article
What's the point of having the CPE run full duplex?

Example scenario: two CPEs (#1 and #2) are connected to a magic filter equipped 
FD AP.  Both want to send and receive as much bandwidth as possible.

The AP splits the frame up into two halves.  During the first half, it talks to 
#1 while receiving from #2.  During the second half, it talks to #2 while 
listening to #1.  The AP spends 100% of the frame-time talking and receiving at 
the same time.  The CPEs meanwhile are running TDD, and spend 100% of the 
frame-time either talking or listening, but not at the same time.

I see no benefit from building this tech into the CPEs unless you want your CPE 
to be able to use up more than 50% of the AP's frame-time.

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 3:59 PM Mike Hammett 
mailto:af...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
Why not have CPE talking at the same time as they're receiving?

I don't know why it wouldn't work on MIMO, but I'm not smart enough to make 
that declaration.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
Midwest Internet Exchange
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
The Brothers WISP
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]




From: "castarritt" mailto:castarr...@gmail.com>>
To: af@af.afmug.com
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 3:53:12 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Antenna article
I understand the benefit.  My point was that only the APs would need the magic 
filters as long as a frequency and/or time division multiple access scheme will 
still be in use.  The SMs don't need the magic filters because they aren't 
talking while receiving, only the AP is.  The only reason I can see to have the 
filters in the SMs if you want each SM to be able to use more than 50% of the 
AP's frame time.


My other question still stands though; is this tech going to work for MIMO APs? 
 I would rather have a dual-pol (or better yet, MU-MIMO) AP running TDD/FDD 
than a full duplex SISO AP.

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 3:23 PM Mike Hammett 
mailto:af...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
If this works, Tx and Rx at the same time means throughput goes up everywhere 
with everything (that adopts it), given that everything is now full duplex and 
not half 

[AFMUG] Can anyone service these events?

[Rory Conaway]

Please contact me:

USSWO:
Pine Needles Lodge
1005 Midland Rd.
Southern Pines, NC 28387
USSMO:
Warren Golf Course @ Notre Dame
110 Warren Golf Course Clubhouse
Notre Dame, IN 46556

Rory Conaway * Triad Wireless * CEO
4226 S. 37th Street * Phoenix * AZ 85040
602-426-0542
r...@triadwireless.net<mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>
www.triadwireless.net<http://www.triadwireless.net/>

"A true man of character knows his limitations - but doesn't accept them"!

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Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

[Rory Conaway]

On the dual Radio Bridgewave, it will support discontiguous 80MHz channels.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tim Hardy
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 12:03 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

According to the latest AF11 data sheet, they do not list 128 QAM as an option 
so 256 QAM would be required.  I’d have to research the B11 and don’t have time 
right now..
Sent from my iPad

On Oct 10, 2018, at 2:47 PM, Mathew Howard 
mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com>> wrote:
So, if I'm calculating that right, that would mean a minimum of 240Mbps per 
80mhz channel? If if I remember correctly, that would mean that an AF11 link 
needs to be able to do at least 128QAM/7X to meet the requirements.

I'm kind of curious what numbers they use to calculate capcity on the B11... 
since it's technically using 320mhz in both directions, it can't be clearing 
the 3.0 bitz/sec/Hz threshold by much.

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 1:17 PM Tim Hardy 
mailto:thardy...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Actually, modulation(s) / loading is a required data element of the PCN.  The 
FCC application requires all modulations / bit rates to be listed, and they 
license these by polarization and direction so there is absolutely no need for 
“aggregate rates”.  The FCC also requires a certification from the coordinator 
that the lowest compliant modulation (the lowest modulation that meets bits/Hz 
requirements) meets 99.95% two-way availability.  The FCC doesn’t check this 
and instead leaves it up to the coordinator’s veracity and the coordination 
community to police.  BTW, the bits/Hz requirement at 11 GHz is 3.0 
bits/sec/Hz.  4.4 is the requirement at 6 GHz.

Unfortunately, there is at least one coordinator that routinely provides this 
certification when there’s no doubt at all it would be impossible to meet.  I 
saw a recent path where the licensee was complaining on social media that he 
couldn’t get 10x or 1024 QAM.  Well, no doubt as the path was coordinated and 
licensed with an RSL  BELOW the 10-6 BER threshold for 1024Q.  The lowest 
compliant modulation on this particular path was 256 QAM and the two-way 
availability calculated at something like 99.87% - and that was with the most 
liberal availability model (ITU-R).

I know that the major coordinators are aware of this issue and have begun 
“policing” this to ensure that there’s a level playing field for all licensees 
and coordinators.
Sent from my iPad

On Oct 10, 2018, at 1:28 PM, Ken Hohhof 
mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:
I’m a bit annoyed that Liz puts “1.3 Gbps aggregate throughput” on the PCNs she 
coordinates.  It’s a nit, but a frequency coordinator should not be influenced 
by marketing.  I also suspect at least some customers think they are getting 
the same capacity as other 80 MHz XPIC radios on the market.  You could say 
shame on them if they don’t realize that a true 1.3 Gbps requires 2 gigabit 
Ethernet interfaces and LAG.  If you go to the UBNT forums (dangerous for your 
sanity), it’s clear that some of the fanboys really believe the AF11 kicks 
everybody else’s butt when it comes to spectral efficiency and maximum 
modulation.  It is an innovative and cost effective product with some nice 
features like swappable diplexers and XPIC included at no extra cost, but it 
isn’t kicking any butt on efficiency or modulation level, in fact it seems to 
trade those off to get the cost down.

Back to the PCNs, it’s probably not important for the bulk of AF11 links, which 
are short.  But if someone is doing a 10+ mile link, I suspect the AF11 may not 
actually meet FCC capacity requirements.  I forget the exact numbers, but it’s 
something like 4.4 bits/sec/Hz, 99.95% of the time with rain fade.  So with a 
160 MHz allocation (2x80 MHz XPIC), if the requirement is actually 4.4 
bits/sec/Hz, that would be 704 Mbps, which is right about what the AF11 can do 
at full modulation on a sunny day.  Not totally sure I have those numbers 
right, and I don’t think anyone actually checks it anyway.  It just bothers me 
to see a PCN going out of its way to parrot the manufacturer’s non standard way 
of quoting capacity.  I’m not sure a PCN even needs to state capacity, so I’m 
not sure why Liz is doing this.


From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 11:26 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

I bitched at length about Ubiquiti's claims for AF11 in the past.

The thing I realized is that while their spec sheet numbers are inconsistent 
with the rest of the industry, they're consistent with the rest of the Ubiquiti 
ecosystem.  They've chosen to be self consistent.  I still think they're wrong, 
but I'm not mad anymore.

-Adam

On 10/10/2018 12:05 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
One worry of course is that if someone can’t coordinate a link due to your use 
of Cat B antennas, they can force you to upgrade to Cat A.  I’m 

Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

[Rory Conaway]

The B11 is 256QAM, dual polarity.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tim Hardy
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 12:03 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

According to the latest AF11 data sheet, they do not list 128 QAM as an option 
so 256 QAM would be required.  I’d have to research the B11 and don’t have time 
right now..
Sent from my iPad

On Oct 10, 2018, at 2:47 PM, Mathew Howard 
mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com>> wrote:
So, if I'm calculating that right, that would mean a minimum of 240Mbps per 
80mhz channel? If if I remember correctly, that would mean that an AF11 link 
needs to be able to do at least 128QAM/7X to meet the requirements.

I'm kind of curious what numbers they use to calculate capcity on the B11... 
since it's technically using 320mhz in both directions, it can't be clearing 
the 3.0 bitz/sec/Hz threshold by much.

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 1:17 PM Tim Hardy 
mailto:thardy...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Actually, modulation(s) / loading is a required data element of the PCN.  The 
FCC application requires all modulations / bit rates to be listed, and they 
license these by polarization and direction so there is absolutely no need for 
“aggregate rates”.  The FCC also requires a certification from the coordinator 
that the lowest compliant modulation (the lowest modulation that meets bits/Hz 
requirements) meets 99.95% two-way availability.  The FCC doesn’t check this 
and instead leaves it up to the coordinator’s veracity and the coordination 
community to police.  BTW, the bits/Hz requirement at 11 GHz is 3.0 
bits/sec/Hz.  4.4 is the requirement at 6 GHz.

Unfortunately, there is at least one coordinator that routinely provides this 
certification when there’s no doubt at all it would be impossible to meet.  I 
saw a recent path where the licensee was complaining on social media that he 
couldn’t get 10x or 1024 QAM.  Well, no doubt as the path was coordinated and 
licensed with an RSL  BELOW the 10-6 BER threshold for 1024Q.  The lowest 
compliant modulation on this particular path was 256 QAM and the two-way 
availability calculated at something like 99.87% - and that was with the most 
liberal availability model (ITU-R).

I know that the major coordinators are aware of this issue and have begun 
“policing” this to ensure that there’s a level playing field for all licensees 
and coordinators.
Sent from my iPad

On Oct 10, 2018, at 1:28 PM, Ken Hohhof 
mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:
I’m a bit annoyed that Liz puts “1.3 Gbps aggregate throughput” on the PCNs she 
coordinates.  It’s a nit, but a frequency coordinator should not be influenced 
by marketing.  I also suspect at least some customers think they are getting 
the same capacity as other 80 MHz XPIC radios on the market.  You could say 
shame on them if they don’t realize that a true 1.3 Gbps requires 2 gigabit 
Ethernet interfaces and LAG.  If you go to the UBNT forums (dangerous for your 
sanity), it’s clear that some of the fanboys really believe the AF11 kicks 
everybody else’s butt when it comes to spectral efficiency and maximum 
modulation.  It is an innovative and cost effective product with some nice 
features like swappable diplexers and XPIC included at no extra cost, but it 
isn’t kicking any butt on efficiency or modulation level, in fact it seems to 
trade those off to get the cost down.

Back to the PCNs, it’s probably not important for the bulk of AF11 links, which 
are short.  But if someone is doing a 10+ mile link, I suspect the AF11 may not 
actually meet FCC capacity requirements.  I forget the exact numbers, but it’s 
something like 4.4 bits/sec/Hz, 99.95% of the time with rain fade.  So with a 
160 MHz allocation (2x80 MHz XPIC), if the requirement is actually 4.4 
bits/sec/Hz, that would be 704 Mbps, which is right about what the AF11 can do 
at full modulation on a sunny day.  Not totally sure I have those numbers 
right, and I don’t think anyone actually checks it anyway.  It just bothers me 
to see a PCN going out of its way to parrot the manufacturer’s non standard way 
of quoting capacity.  I’m not sure a PCN even needs to state capacity, so I’m 
not sure why Liz is doing this.


From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 11:26 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

I bitched at length about Ubiquiti's claims for AF11 in the past.

The thing I realized is that while their spec sheet numbers are inconsistent 
with the rest of the industry, they're consistent with the rest of the Ubiquiti 
ecosystem.  They've chosen to be self consistent.  I still think they're wrong, 
but I'm not mad anymore.

-Adam

On 10/10/2018 12:05 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
One worry of course is that if someone can’t coordinate a link due to your use 
of Cat B antennas, they can force you to upgrade to Cat A.  I’m not saying I’ve 
worried a lot about that, 

Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

[Rory Conaway]

I just checked.  I got the DT version.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 2:38 PM
To: AFMUG
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

Mind sharing the specs (throughput, channel size, etc) of the ST model for a 
super lazy person like myself?

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 5:27 PM Jason McKemie 
mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>> 
wrote:
I just got a quote yesterday, the ST model was around d $4k a link with full 
licenses. The DT model was about twice that.

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018, Rory Conaway 
mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>> wrote:
Yea, no.   I’m not sure if I can release pricing but figure somewhere around 
$10-$12k with antennas depending on options.  If you double up the radios, even 
more.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] On 
Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 1:54 PM
To: AFMUG
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

~$4k was the price that I heard originally.

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 4:28 PM Rory Conaway 
mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>> wrote:
I have 2 of the units.  They second antenna showed up today so they are going 
up on Monday.

Depends on what you think the price is.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] On 
Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 1:17 PM
To: AFMUG
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

I heard that some people have beta units.. I have also heard the price is NOT 
what everyone thought it would be.

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 3:32 PM Joe Novak 
mailto:jno...@lrcomm.com>> wrote:
Everyone was talking about it at the Spring show.

If it's not actually in the wild yet I start to question it's existence.



Joe

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 2:23 PM Jason McKemie 
mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>> 
wrote:
I'm not sure if there are any out in the wild as of yet.
If so, is anyone using these?  Thoughts?

The features look good, and pricing is pretty aggressive.

-Jason
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Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

[Rory Conaway]

The original idea was $2000-$2500 per radio but it ended up being a little more 
than that.

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 2:15 PM
To: AFMUG
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

I figured as much.  Bummer.  Not sure where the people who were yelling 
"omgomgomg $4k" got their info from.

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 4:59 PM Rory Conaway 
mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>> wrote:
Yea, no.   I’m not sure if I can release pricing but figure somewhere around 
$10-$12k with antennas depending on options.  If you double up the radios, even 
more.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] On 
Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 1:54 PM
To: AFMUG
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

~$4k was the price that I heard originally.

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 4:28 PM Rory Conaway 
mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>> wrote:
I have 2 of the units.  They second antenna showed up today so they are going 
up on Monday.

Depends on what you think the price is.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] On 
Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 1:17 PM
To: AFMUG
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

I heard that some people have beta units.. I have also heard the price is NOT 
what everyone thought it would be.

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 3:32 PM Joe Novak 
mailto:jno...@lrcomm.com>> wrote:
Everyone was talking about it at the Spring show.

If it's not actually in the wild yet I start to question it's existence.



Joe

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 2:23 PM Jason McKemie 
mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>> 
wrote:
I'm not sure if there are any out in the wild as of yet.
If so, is anyone using these?  Thoughts?

The features look good, and pricing is pretty aggressive.

-Jason
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Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

[Rory Conaway]

Yea, no.   I’m not sure if I can release pricing but figure somewhere around 
$10-$12k with antennas depending on options.  If you double up the radios, even 
more.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 1:54 PM
To: AFMUG
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

~$4k was the price that I heard originally.

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 4:28 PM Rory Conaway 
mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>> wrote:
I have 2 of the units.  They second antenna showed up today so they are going 
up on Monday.

Depends on what you think the price is.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] On 
Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 1:17 PM
To: AFMUG
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

I heard that some people have beta units.. I have also heard the price is NOT 
what everyone thought it would be.

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 3:32 PM Joe Novak 
mailto:jno...@lrcomm.com>> wrote:
Everyone was talking about it at the Spring show.

If it's not actually in the wild yet I start to question it's existence.



Joe

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 2:23 PM Jason McKemie 
mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>> 
wrote:
I'm not sure if there are any out in the wild as of yet.
If so, is anyone using these?  Thoughts?

The features look good, and pricing is pretty aggressive.

-Jason
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

[Rory Conaway]

I have 2 of the units.  They second antenna showed up today so they are going 
up on Monday.

Depends on what you think the price is.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 1:17 PM
To: AFMUG
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Bridgewave Navigator

I heard that some people have beta units.. I have also heard the price is NOT 
what everyone thought it would be.

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 3:32 PM Joe Novak 
mailto:jno...@lrcomm.com>> wrote:
Everyone was talking about it at the Spring show.

If it's not actually in the wild yet I start to question it's existence.



Joe

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 2:23 PM Jason McKemie 
mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>> 
wrote:
I'm not sure if there are any out in the wild as of yet.
If so, is anyone using these?  Thoughts?

The features look good, and pricing is pretty aggressive.

-Jason
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AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Improving WIFI coverage in homes

[Rory Conaway]

We were using the Air Cube ACs also on Ubiquiti installations and the Mimosa 
G2s on Mimosa installations specifically because of the repeater abilities.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Erich Kaiser
Sent: Monday, October 1, 2018 9:05 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Improving WIFI coverage in homes

We use the Ubiquiti AirCube AC and add an additional unit in repeater mode if 
needed.  So far they are working great got about 40 in the field.  They are 
also our POE source going forward, for ubiquiti radios and fiber ONU.  All 
managed through UNMS.





On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 9:30 AM Kurt Fankhauser 
mailto:lists.wavel...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Been having a lot of customers lately calling about poor wifi coverage, I 
always install the router in a prime location in house and when digging into 
details further finding out that they are trying to use the wifi outside, or by 
the pool or in the garage. What is everyone doing to accommodate these peoples 
requests? Add another Mikrotik AP and charge additional $10/month for each 
extra AP's? I want to offer a solution but at the same time make it worth my 
time dealing with them. Seems to me i should be walking away with minimum $500 
for getting flawless wifi coverage in their house plus more monthly fee.
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Re: [AFMUG] looking for chart or data on wireless improvements over the last 20 years

[Rory Conaway]

Good idea.  thanks Chuck

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 4:45 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] looking for chart or data on wireless improvements over 
the last 20 years

This has some historical info.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_efficiency

From: Rory Conaway
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 5:35 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: [AFMUG] looking for chart or data on wireless improvements over the 
last 20 years

Just need some type of information for a powerpoint slide.  Would greatly 
appreciate any information on that.

Rory Conaway • Triad Wireless • CEO
4226 S. 37th Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040
602-426-0542
r...@triadwireless.net
www.triadwireless.net<http://www.triadwireless.net/>

“Yesterdays Home Runs don’t win todays games!”


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[AFMUG] looking for chart or data on wireless improvements over the last 20 years

[Rory Conaway]

Just need some type of information for a powerpoint slide.  Would greatly 
appreciate any information on that.

Rory Conaway * Triad Wireless * CEO
4226 S. 37th Street * Phoenix * AZ 85040
602-426-0542
r...@triadwireless.net<mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>
www.triadwireless.net<http://www.triadwireless.net/>

"Yesterdays Home Runs don't win todays games!"

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Re: [AFMUG] More Hot Air?

[Rory Conaway]

Still need to know how many they have to put on poles.  My guess, every pole.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 1:47 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] More Hot Air?

There's an PtMP AP on the pole as well. That seemed pretty clear in the videos.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]


<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

From: "Josh Luthman" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 1:48:59 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] More Hot Air?
"signals travel around or near the lines not through them" so it looks like mm 
wave between nodes.  How it's going from those devices to a house or inside a 
car is beyond me.

The videos really look like hype generators and stock price inflators.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 2:36 PM, Rory Conaway 
mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>> wrote:
So at minimum they need access to the spectrum they are going to use unless 
it’s something unlicensed based on the patent.  I can’t figure out how far this 
is supposed to go though.  The video shows every single power pole or maybe a 
few hundred feet per hop.  Is that correct?

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] On 
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 10:16 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] More Hot Air?

Someone posted this link on the TBW FB.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9154966B2/en


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
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<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

From: "Jason McKemie" 
mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com>>
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:Af@af.afmug.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 8:57:36 AM
Subject: [AFMUG] More Hot Air?
Sounds like it to me, but there are some interesting ideas for BPL-ish 
communication.

https://www.cnet.com/news/at-t-airgig-could-mean-100-megabit-rural-broadband-in-2021/
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Re: [AFMUG] More Hot Air?

[Rory Conaway]

So at minimum they need access to the spectrum they are going to use unless 
it’s something unlicensed based on the patent.  I can’t figure out how far this 
is supposed to go though.  The video shows every single power pole or maybe a 
few hundred feet per hop.  Is that correct?

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 10:16 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] More Hot Air?

Someone posted this link on the TBW FB.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9154966B2/en


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Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
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From: "Jason McKemie" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 8:57:36 AM
Subject: [AFMUG] More Hot Air?
Sounds like it to me, but there are some interesting ideas for BPL-ish 
communication.

https://www.cnet.com/news/at-t-airgig-could-mean-100-megabit-rural-broadband-in-2021/
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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Rory Conaway]

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151023083229.htm

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/07/11/marijuana-pregnant-thc-positive-babies-colorado/

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:24 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

Please elaborate.

On Thursday, August 30, 2018, Rory Conaway 
mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>> wrote:
No but addicted children birth rates have gone way up in hospitals.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] On 
Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:03 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

On 8/30/18 3:55 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
> Utah has medicinal pot on the ballot this fall.  Who woulda thunk...

So far the world hasn't ended in states that went full legal.

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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Rory Conaway]

No but addicted children birth rates have gone way up in hospitals.  

Rory

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:03 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

On 8/30/18 3:55 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
> Utah has medicinal pot on the ballot this fall.  Who woulda thunk...

So far the world hasn't ended in states that went full legal.

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Re: [AFMUG] CAF Phase II

[Rory Conaway]

Ah, gotcha.  If you email them to me, I’ll post them on a couple WISP pages on 
Facebook.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 11:40 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CAF Phase II

I don’t have a link, I have the PDFs that were forwarded to me.  I will try to 
forward them but I don’t think they will come through.

From: Rory Conaway
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 12:36 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CAF Phase II

Can you please post the link?

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 11:33 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] CAF Phase II

I see some familiar names amongst the winners.  I would attach the list but I 
don’t think PDF go through this listserv.

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Re: [AFMUG] CAF Phase II

[Rory Conaway]

Can you please post the link?

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 11:33 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] CAF Phase II

I see some familiar names amongst the winners.  I would attach the list but I 
don’t think PDF go through this listserv.
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Re: [AFMUG] Customers wont stop texting personal cell

[Rory Conaway]

We have an app on our phone that connects to our office VoIP setup.  When we 
call customers, they see the office number.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Brian Webster
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 11:13 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Customers wont stop texting personal cell

Remember Google Voice also lets you text from a web browser. Get one of those 
numbers and have the ability to on call or office people to answer and reply to 
texts. Texting for support is a nice feature for a company and any tech or 
answering service can log in to the Google Voice account to be able to accept 
and respond. I turned a friend on to this who owns a junkyard, he can now send 
text picture replies of cars/parts back to a person who texts right from their 
workstations where they have all the photos stored and organized on their LAN. 
He used to do that through his cell phone.

Kurt if you just start the autoreply message to text to the new Google Voice 
number instead it is a possible solution to your problem without having to 
change your personal number.

Another option would be to port your cell number over to Google Voice and get 
yourself a new number. In Google Voice you have options to set up forwarding 
based on hours or pre-screen calls and forward to your new cell to decide if 
you will answer or send it to voice mail. You can also set up a per contact 
rule to ring right through to the forwarding number if you like. A lot of 
flexibility while keeping your old number active. When customer text to your 
old number it would now show up on the web log in rather than your phone.

Thank You,
Brian Webster

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 1:15 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Customers wont stop texting personal cell

Im very firm with the customers who call my cell (they have it for the same 
reason you state). I dont offer any assistance, just keep directing them to the 
office number. They get a little mad, but once they realize they will get help 
from the other number they stop and are satisfied. the worst thing you can do 
once you commit to getting them to stop is to help at all. That includes 
advising them to powercycle, or even answering the question of whether there 
are any known outages

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 11:26 AM Dave 
mailto:dmilho...@wletc.com>> wrote:
Thats what I did for a while to get them to call the correct numbers
On 08/28/2018 11:07 AM, Brian Sullivan wrote:
Type up a quick auto reply and save it somewhere on your phone.  Next time you 
get one of these texts, reply with your "Auto-reply" and they will stop sending 
you messages.  No one wants to talk to a bot.
On 8/28/2018 10:58 AM, Jeremy wrote:
We use a Google Voice number for outbound calls, and it goes straight to a 
voicemail that states "this number is for outbound technician calls only.  For 
support, please call x".  I never gave out my personal cell number, but a 
few people managed to get it off of caller id when I was having Google Voice 
issues for about a month.  I have been slowly steering those customers to 
another provider because they text incessantly.  I just block the number if 
they call inbound.  Call my cell = find a new provider.  It's extreme, I know.

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 9:50 AM Matt Hoppes 
mailto:mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net>> 
wrote:
I don’t know that I can offer you any advice at this point, but this is why we 
all carry a VoIP soft phone on our cell phone, so we can call customers from 
the company phone number.

> On Aug 28, 2018, at 11:45, Kurt Fankhauser 
> mailto:lists.wavel...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I have had the same personal cell number for almost 10 years now and because 
> of things like me calling a client while on the road and them saving my 
> number I have a boatload of them that are always texting/calling it whenever 
> they have an issue. Its really annoying since I have hired an office 
> assistant and I am paying them to answer calls now. I had an outage a month 
> ago and probably had 20 of the same message from numbers I did not know who 
> they were all asking if the internet was down. I am considering changing my 
> personal cell number now and keeping the old one and just having it forward 
> to the office number and maybe get some sort of text auto reply set up on it 
> to send a message back whenever anyone texts it saying that this is an auto 
> response, for support issues please call the office number at xxx-xxx-. 
> Then when I get my new number I now have a VOIP app that can call out from 
> the cell and make it appear like the office number so this issue doesn't 
> happen again.
>
> The only downfall to this is there are a lot of important contacts i have 
> that have the cell number that I do need to be in contact with for emergency 
> situations. And is anyone doing any sort of SMS messaging for 

Re: [AFMUG] Faster Ubiquiti RMA Process

[Rory Conaway]

No kidding on the stock issue but it’s also about how long it takes to get 
equipment from distributors.  We buy tons off Amazon in small quantities 
because I can get it in 24-48 guaranteed versus not know what warehouse 
distributor X is shipping from and it’s guaranteed to be in stock if it’s on 
the website.  We have distributors with who can’t even tell me if they have 
something in stock when I order.  They don’t even know until they try to ship 
it which then may waste a day or two.  Throw in the extra day or 2 if something 
is shipped out of a different warehouse with longer ship times and I don’t have 
5 days waiting for stuff.  If this is an issue with warranty’s on Amazon 
purchases, then it’s going to be a huge issue for us.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tim Cailloux
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 9:49 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Faster Ubiquiti RMA Process

Yeah; in a pinch I go for Amazon fulfillment product sold by Pasadena or FlyTec 
because they’re authorized resellers.

Ingram gave me ETAs of November 1 for product, and it’s hard to run a business 
with that kind of delay, or to bring it in inventory and then get punished by a 
customer because their unit sat on my shelf for 6 months. I dont want to eat 
half the warranty period when it’s stocked on my shelf before it’s deployed. 
When I want it in stock, it is for my own business needs as an integrator. My 
customers would laugh at me and find someone else if I told them it’s 6 months 
for product availability.

I can appreciate why they’re asking, but is there that much greymarket sold in 
the US?

Tim

On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 11:15 AM Mike Hammett 
mailto:af...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
Some Amazon sellers are authorized distributors.

I think if UBNT is going to start worrying about supply chain integrity, they 
ought to start making sure the supply chain is stocked.


-
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Intelligent Computing Solutions
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From: "Tim Cailloux" 
mailto:t...@southern-internet.com>>
To: "Animal Farm Mailing List" mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 10:02:08 AM
Subject: [AFMUG] Faster Ubiquiti RMA Process

Is there a faster way to submit RMAs to Ubiquiti than the (slow) 
rma.ubnt.com site?  I batch RMAs to do monthly/quarterly, 
and it takes much longer through than previously now that it seemingly has to 
look up every single MAC.  It just took 40 minutes to do 5 devices.

(Also, they claim to only accept RMAs from official distributors and resellers, 
so FYI on those Amazon purchases from "nebulous" resellers.  I know I've had to 
do that occasionally when I'm out of stock and Baltic/Ingram don't have any 
inventory, which seems to happen all the time...)

tim

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Southern Internet -- Locally Owned and Operated
t...@southern-internet.com
(404) 406-9911

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[AFMUG] Does OTARD apply on Federal lands like National Parks

[Rory Conaway]

Rory Conaway * Triad Wireless * CEO
4226 S. 37th Street * Phoenix * AZ 85040
602-426-0542
r...@triadwireless.net<mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>
www.triadwireless.net<http://www.triadwireless.net/>

"Yesterdays Home Runs don't win todays games!"

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[AFMUG] looking for a remec mount to go with a Tongyu antenna

[Rory Conaway]

Found the antenna, can't find the remec adapter.  Could also use a different 
antenna if it's compatible with this remec mount or the radio that uses it.

Tongyu Part #:   TYA09U01 8S-T92S
Remec Part #:700-51000-1813


Rory Conaway * Triad Wireless * CEO
4226 S. 37th Street * Phoenix * AZ 85040
602-426-0542
r...@triadwireless.net<mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>
www.triadwireless.net<http://www.triadwireless.net/>

"Yesterdays Home Runs don't win todays games!"

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[AFMUG] anyone have a source for tongyu antennas

[Rory Conaway]

Rory Conaway * Triad Wireless * CEO
4226 S. 37th Street * Phoenix * AZ 85040
602-426-0542
r...@triadwireless.net<mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>
www.triadwireless.net<http://www.triadwireless.net/>

"Yesterdays Home Runs don't win todays games!"

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Re: [AFMUG] FCC and 24 + 28 GHz

[Rory Conaway]

What kind of power output are you allowed for PTMP?

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Eric Kuhnke
Sent: Monday, August 6, 2018 12:34 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: [AFMUG] FCC and 24 + 28 GHz

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-18-109A1.pdf

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-18-109A2.pdf

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-18-109A3.pdf

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-18-109A4.pdf



eleased: 2018-08-03. AUCTIONS OF UPPER MICROWAVE FLEXIBLE USE LICENSE FOR NEXT 
GENERATION WIRELESS SERVICES; NOTICE AND FILING REQUIREMENTS, MINIMUM OPENING 
BIDS, UPFRONT PAYMENTS, AND OTHER PROCEDURES FOR AUCTIONS 101 (28 GHZ) AND 109 
(24 GHZ). (Dkt No 18-85). FCC establishes the application and bidding 
procedures for the upcoming auctions of UMFUS licenses in the 28 GHz and 24 GHz 
bands. (FCC No. 18-109). WTB. Action by: the Commission. 
FCC-18-109A1.docx 
FCC-18-109A1.pdf 
FCC-18-109A1.txt 
FCC-18-109A2.docx 
FCC-18-109A2.pdf 
FCC-18-109A2.txt 
FCC-18-109A3.docx 
FCC-18-109A3.pdf 
FCC-18-109A3.txt 
FCC-18-109A4.docx 
FCC-18-109A4.pdf 
FCC-18-109A4.txt 
FCC-18-109A5.docx 
FCC-18-109A5.pdf 
FCC-18-109A5.txt


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Re: [AFMUG] RF Armor for a CPE

[Rory Conaway]

Have you considered adding back to back RF Armor shields.  I might try that 
today on an RD-34.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 9:01 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] RF Armor for a CPE

It is outside at my NOC.  We have a 10' x 10' structure on the roof with back 
to back Nanostations broadcasting 10' apart

On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 7:27 AM, Cameron Crum 
mailto:cc...@murcevilo.com>> wrote:
The foil table is cheap and easy to try. If it doesn't work, you can always 
peel it off. As for the 6db result from earlier, were you outdoors in inside 
when you tried that test?

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Jeremy 
mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I used to use galvanizing spray paint to repair stingers that had lost their 
gold stickers, and it worked great for that.  I would clean the residue off, 
mask and spray the circle, and then paint the whole thing white.

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 10:59 AM, mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> 
wrote:
Galvanizing spray paint may not have a good faraday effect due to the small 
zinc particle size and the lack of electrical connection between particles.  
Just a guess.  I would think foil tape would tell you for certain.

But the paint may have been just as good.  Never really tested it for that.  I 
know that eventually the vehicle somehow weathers or evaporates away and allows 
the zinc to do the proper electrochemistry when applied to steel.

From: Jeremy
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 10:55 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] RF Armor for a CPE

I have masked the front and painted the backs with galvanizing spray paint, but 
the difference was not really very noticeable.  I debated trying foil tape, but 
just gave up frequency reuse on that old UBNT gear.

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 10:47 AM,  wrote:
I would have cost them just a penny or two to have coated the inside of the 
enclosure with aluminum deposition or nickel paint (or arc spray zinc) to have 
eliminated much of that.

I wonder what the difference would be to put foil on everything but the area in 
the front where the antenna is...

From: Jeremy
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 10:43 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] RF Armor for a CPE

so it dropped from hearing at a -30 to a -36.  Still too hot for them to 
both be on-channel obviously, since they put out so much noise out the back.  
Obviously a directional antenna like a Powerbeam will be different.

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 10:41 AM, Jeremy  wrote:
In my experience testing RF armor on a two Nanostations facing opposite 
directions, ten feet apart from each other, each rf armor lowered the noise 
level by 3db.  So both of them lowered the level that they could hear each 
other by 6db.

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 9:26 AM, Jay Weekley  wrote:
How effective is RF Armor in reducing interference being received by an SM?  
Obviously it depends on which direction it's coming from .
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Error! Filename not specified.

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[AFMUG] Tales from the Towers Chapter 65 posted

[Rory Conaway]

http://muniwireless.com/2018/07/23/tales-from-the-towers-chapter-65-picky-picky/#respond

Rory Conaway * Triad Wireless * CEO
4226 S. 37th Street * Phoenix * AZ 85040
602-426-0542
r...@triadwireless.net<mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>
www.triadwireless.net<http://www.triadwireless.net/>

"Yesterdays Home Runs don't win todays games!"

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Re: [AFMUG] AF11x

[Rory Conaway]

The 820 can’t do 80MHz channels at 2048QAM.  The Bridgewave Navigator is what 
I’d be looking at next, way more capabilities and capacity.  They are just 
starting to ship them.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 9:45 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] AF11x

What does an aviat link cost? The alfoplus2 is about $15k a link, the regular 
alfoplus used to be a solid deal, not as much anymore.

On Thursday, July 19, 2018, Mike Hammett 
mailto:af...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
SIAE I believe will be your best bang and at a reasonable buck. Aviat, maybe. 
Bridgewave, still waiting.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
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The Brothers WISP
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From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@af.afmug.com
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 9:43:01 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] AF11x
So what current product current release radio has the best throughput in the 11 
GHz band?

From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:04 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] AF11x

So I just read up about the AF11x.  I haven't been paying much attention to 
this product because I've been busy with other things.

The datasheet claims "best spectral efficiency in class" and "1.2gbps".
Various people on the forum made claims that don't match up with simple 
comparisons of spec sheets.  Some were UBNT employees, others were just fanboys.

The actual info on the spec sheets is that you get about 22% less throughput 
per channel at the same modulation level and same channel size as competing 
products.  They claim huge numbers by adding multiple channels together.  You 
also can't use a full 80mhz channel, so if I compare to a PTP820C (which 
actually can do 1.2gbps full duplex in XPIC), the Airfiber 11x is more like 42% 
less throughput.

So the spec sheet is factually accurate with it's numbers, but the text 
narrative is clearly intended to mislead the buyer.  Having just realized this, 
I'm a bit offended.

It seems the only thing it really has going for it is being very inexpensive.  
Like I can get 2 AF11x's for less than one PTP820S with full speed licenses.  
So if I can get enough channels licensed for 2 XPIC links, then the AF11x is 
still compelling.  And it might mean I can justify an 11ghz link for a lower 
volume site than I could otherwise.  They didn't need to lie about it.



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Re: [AFMUG] AF-11FX vs B11

[Rory Conaway]

Why use the FDD option?  It’s still better to use the 2x80 mode and let it 
dynamically adjust where the priority is.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tim Hardy
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 5:05 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] AF-11FX vs B11

I’ll look but there’s nothing other than 50/50 with the 1x80 FDD option.

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 7:27 PM Mathew Howard 
mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I think those rates are what you'd get with a 50/50 traffic split - if it's 
running in flexible mode, you should be able to get close to double that in one 
direction... but it's been awhile since I've played with settings on a B11, so 
I could be wrong.

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 4:57 PM, Faisal Imtiaz 
mailto:fai...@snappytelecom.net>> wrote:

Something is off in your Mimosa #  see picture attached..

Respectfully,

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
http://www.snappytelecom.net

Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net


From: "Tim Hardy" mailto:thardy...@gmail.com>>
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 5:32:32 PM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] AF-11FX vs B11
I realize that these are theoretical values supplied by the manufacturer and 
attaining these is another matter entirely.  But, I thought it might help to 
see a comparison of supplied specs.

Manufacturers are supposed to provide the “air-rate” that does not include 
header compression, overhead bits, etc. but from what I remember it was not 
possible to get this from either UBNT or Mimosa.  So, the claims of throughput 
are all over the place and its not easy to compare radios based on manufacturer 
supplied data.  If you look at an Aviat spec sheet, you will see an Airlink 
capacity and a Max Ethernet Capacity based on 64 byte frames, physical layer, 
with DAC GE3.  Mimosa supplied data is confusing as all data that I saw before 
I retired last October was listed in full duplex and considered everything on a 
path.  For example, they publish 1472 Mbps for the 2X80 radio but this takes an 
astonishing 8 chains to accomplish vs.UBNT’s 4 chains for the full duplex rate. 
 I won't even go into the havoc that the TDD radios create for efficient use of 
the spectrum - especially in bands where 98% of the installed base is FDD.  
That would take too long and its not the point of this post.

Not knowing what assumptions were used for either radio, I did a comparison of 
their 80 MHz channel plan radio configurations (using their listed data)and 
this is what I found:

To accurately compare radio to radio, one must compare the Mimosa TD-FD (based 
on 2-streams or chains) values to UBNTs Mimo (based on 2-streams or chains) 
values and the data rates listed below are assumed each direction.

80 MHz channel plan radio

UBNT - Both Polarizations bit rates specified per direction on the path

1024 QAM 688 Mbps -52.5 dBm 10-6 BER
256 QAM 550 Mbps -60.5 dBm 10-6 BER
QPSK 138 Mbps -81.5 dBm 10-6 BER

Mimosa - Both Polarizations bit rates specified per direction on the path

256 QAM 368 Mbps -64.5 dBm 10-6 BER
QPSK 83 Mbps -82 dBm 10-6 BER

The Mimosa radio catches up to UBNT when 2X80 is used and the throughput values 
listed here double.  I also listed the radio thresholds as there was some talk 
about difficulty holding the higher modulation in the UBNT radio.  Hopefully, 
this shows why since the B11 would have a minimum of 12 db additional fade 
margin (difference between 256 QAM and 1024 QAM) right off the bat - plus the 
Mimosa radio runs at about 24 dBm vs 18-19 dBm for UBNT at the highest 
modulation.

Thought I’d add SAF Lumina just for grins.  The 80 MHz channel plan radio has a 
56 MHz occupied bandwidth.

SAF Lumina - Both Polarizations bit rates specified per direction on the path

256 QAM 732 Mbps -63.5 dBm 10-6 BER
4 QAM 134 Mbps -87.0 dBm 10-6 BER

On Jul 17, 2018, at 3:25 PM, Jeremy 
mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com>> wrote:

AFAIK The Trango Lynx secret sauce was header compression, and those numbers 
vary based on your average packet size.  Lets of small packets = less overall 
throughput / larger packets = larger overall throughput capability.

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 1:17 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
ubnt does not publish the specific FEC coding types and percentages for the 
AF11's modulations. What it's doing under the hood is kind of opaque...





On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 11:59 AM, Adam Moffett 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
This brings up what I've been wondering when looking at the AF11 data sheets:

A Trango Lynx on a 56mhz channel SISO without compression yields 486mbps Full 
Duplex at 1024QAM.
An AF11X SISO on the same channel size at 1024QAM yields 344mbps Full Duplex.

What's the deal?  Lower cyclic prefix on AF11?

-Adam


On 7/17/2018 2:28 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
With limited spectrum, it's an accurate 

Re: [AFMUG] WISP in need

[Rory Conaway]

We also need to understand if he is looking for a loan, a partner, or some 
other business arrangement.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tim Reichhart
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2018 10:15 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP in need


Butch 

is this wisp in financial problems or what? We need need little bit more 
information what the funds will be going for? 



Tim



 
-Original Message- 
> From: "Butch Evans"  
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
> Date: 07/13/18 12:35 
> Subject: [AFMUG] WISP in need 
> 
> I have been made aware of a WISP that has some financial needs. I have
> been asked to keep his name private. If you are willing to help -
> ANYTHING helps - send paypal to but...@butchevans.com and in the notes
> comment "WISP Helper" (or similar). I will see that he gets 100% of
> what you send. Paypal costs me 3% or so, but I will cover that part,
> too. Thank you!
> 
> -- 
> Butch Evans
> Training and Support for WISPs
> 702-537-0979
> http://store.wispgear.net/
> http://www.butchevans.com/
> 
> -- 
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



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Re: [AFMUG] One day AnimalFarm in Mountain Home

[Rory Conaway]

Clearly you haven't been to our Phoenix Fry's.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 2:40 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] One day AnimalFarm in Mountain Home

No longer the case.

I've been to the Sunnyvale Fry's and the Campbell Fry's in the last 
couple of weeks. Both times there were only 4 or 5 checkers (in a row of 
at least 20), and there was never more than one person in front of me. 
If I had waited 30 seconds, I would be surprised.

It's still difficult to find a sales person to ask a question.

Hellooo? Anybody home?


bp


On 7/10/2018 1:42 PM, Rory Conaway wrote:
> Fry's sunk themselves with the 30 minute lines to check out.
>
> Rory
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robert Andrews
> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 10:05 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] One day AnimalFarm in Mountain Home
>
> I was afraid of that.   Amazon is a real Fry's killer...   Almost like a
> cruise missile takeout of Fry's customers...
>
> On 07/09/2018 01:26 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
>> There are at least 4 or 5 Fry's in the general vicinity. Closest would
>> be either Palo Alto (the cowboy place), or Sunnyvale (was the circuit
>> board place, but now is a 1920's art deco place). The last time I was
>> there, it was like a ghost town. I'm kind of wondering if they will be
>> closing up shop soon? Maybe they're doing all their orders online...
>>
>>
>> bp
>> 
>>
>> On 7/9/2018 12:46 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
>>> I was guessing he was making a joke..   BTW a stop at a Fry's
>>> Electronics would be a hoot if they are still any good?
>>>
>>> I would tentatively be a yes...
>>>
>>> On 07/09/2018 12:20 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>>>> All silicone valley to me.  Silicon too.
>>>> Mountain Home Idaho is what first comes to my mind.
>>>> I never know the sequence of towns down there.  San Jose, Cupertino,
>>>> Mountain View, Los Gatos etc etc.
>>>> South of SFO.
>>>> *From:* Bill Prince
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 1:16 PM
>>>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] One day AnimalFarm in Mountain Home
>>>>
>>>> BTW - It's Mountain View. Mountain Home is about 200 miles east in
>>>> the Sierra foothills.
>>>>
>>>> bp
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> On 7/9/2018 11:52 AM, Cameron Crum wrote:
>>>>> That weekend looks good for me...10,11,12. Whatever.
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  Let’s pick a date.
>>>>>  *From:* Bill Prince
>>>>>  *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 12:22 PM
>>>>>  *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>>>>>  *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] One day AnimalFarm in Mountain Home
>>>>>
>>>>>  I'd go to that for sure. I can't tell you the number of times I
>>>>>  "was going to go down there", and something else came up. Just
>>>>>  down the hill from here and just a couple blocks from one of our
>>>>> NOCs.
>>>>>
>>>>>  bp
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>  On 7/9/2018 11:13 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>>>>>>  Looks like Cameron and myself are game.  Anyone else. Bill,
>>>>>>  pretty close by to you.
>>>>>>  Forrest?  Aug 11th?  12th?
>>>>>>  It is open 10-5.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>  -- AF mailing list
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>>>>>  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>> <http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>
>>>>>
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>>>>>  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>>> <http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> 
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>>>>
>>>>
>>


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Re: [AFMUG] One day AnimalFarm in Mountain Home

[Rory Conaway]

Fry's sunk themselves with the 30 minute lines to check out.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robert Andrews
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 10:05 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] One day AnimalFarm in Mountain Home

I was afraid of that.   Amazon is a real Fry's killer...   Almost like a 
cruise missile takeout of Fry's customers...

On 07/09/2018 01:26 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
> There are at least 4 or 5 Fry's in the general vicinity. Closest would 
> be either Palo Alto (the cowboy place), or Sunnyvale (was the circuit 
> board place, but now is a 1920's art deco place). The last time I was 
> there, it was like a ghost town. I'm kind of wondering if they will be 
> closing up shop soon? Maybe they're doing all their orders online...
> 
> 
> bp
> 
> 
> On 7/9/2018 12:46 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
>> I was guessing he was making a joke..   BTW a stop at a Fry's 
>> Electronics would be a hoot if they are still any good?
>>
>> I would tentatively be a yes...
>>
>> On 07/09/2018 12:20 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>>> All silicone valley to me.  Silicon too.
>>> Mountain Home Idaho is what first comes to my mind.
>>> I never know the sequence of towns down there.  San Jose, Cupertino, 
>>> Mountain View, Los Gatos etc etc.
>>> South of SFO.
>>> *From:* Bill Prince
>>> *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 1:16 PM
>>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] One day AnimalFarm in Mountain Home
>>>
>>> BTW - It's Mountain View. Mountain Home is about 200 miles east in 
>>> the Sierra foothills.
>>>
>>> bp
>>> 
>>>
>>> On 7/9/2018 11:52 AM, Cameron Crum wrote:
 That weekend looks good for me...10,11,12. Whatever.
 On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

 Let’s pick a date.
 *From:* Bill Prince
 *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 12:22 PM
 *To:* af@af.afmug.com
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] One day AnimalFarm in Mountain Home

 I'd go to that for sure. I can't tell you the number of times I
 "was going to go down there", and something else came up. Just
 down the hill from here and just a couple blocks from one of our 
 NOCs.

 bp
 

 On 7/9/2018 11:13 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
> Looks like Cameron and myself are game.  Anyone else. Bill,
> pretty close by to you.
> Forrest?  Aug 11th?  12th?
> It is open 10-5.
>
>

  

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>>>
>>> 
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>>>
>>
> 
> 

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Re: [AFMUG] Hughes 9202 BGAN Terminal for remote VPN access.

[Rory Conaway]

I would see if Viasats new satellite covers that area.  It’s a lot faster.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Yuchasz
Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2018 1:33 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Hughes 9202 BGAN Terminal for remote VPN access.

We are going to be in the most SE portion of Alaska. Should be able to use it 
there according the sat company.

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2018 3:02 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Hughes 9202 BGAN Terminal for remote VPN access.

I can't testify to reliability but I assume you have checked your future 
lat/long and know that sat is good up there. Many sats cut off south of most of 
Alaska. At least that is what I remember.
On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, 14:30 Brandon Yuchasz 
mailto:li...@gogebicrange.net>> wrote:
Borg,
We discussed this a while back but I didn’t have specifics back then so I am 
bringing it back to the list for another round.
In august I am taking a backpack, self-guided, alpine Sitka blacktail deer 
hunting trip in SE Alaska with my son and good friend.
The basics are we are dropped off an sea level on a float plane and we are 
hiking up to the alpine around 300 feet ( so low for alpine). Completely on our 
own for 8 days.
Everything we have will be on our back. So weight is a large concern.
I am the geek at the company. They can handle basic help desk, and fixing and 
installing customers without me. But if an AP dies or a backhaul drops things 
will be difficult without me to troubleshoot. I have decided I will need the 
ability to get online and VPN in.
Basic needs, will be winbox, webbrowser ( log into an AP) and other basics. 
Nothing heavy.

I will have an garmin inreach for texting and emailing communication.

I will carry my laptop and an extra battery or may buy something lighter if I 
can find an acceptable unit.

What I need help with is the Satellite terminal unit.
I am considering two models.
Hughes 9202 BGAN Terminal and the Huges 9211 BGAN Terminal.  The 9202 is 
lighter by about a pound. That matters a lot to me. I will be carrying an extra 
battery for whatever unit I decide on. Both units tell me I will get IP 
broadband speeds up to 464 kbps. I can live with that if I get those speeds and 
can VPN through it and work through pings, winbox and the gui on cambium 
backhauls and APs.

I know I need to be able to get clear skies to the south I can deal with that. 
What I don’t know is are these connections stable can I depend on it to work at 
close to speeds advertised?

I have a test unit scheduled to be shipped to me next week to try but wanted to 
find out if anyone has used one of these units for similar work?

Best Regards.
Brandon Yuchasz

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Re: [AFMUG] Long PTP link with epmp.

[Rory Conaway]

You can get more than half the capacity of a B5c with the C5c under ideal 
conditions.  I’ve got B5cs running 1Gbps.  The C5c is limited to speeds in the 
600Mbps range.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jaime Solorza
Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2018 8:25 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Long PTP link with epmp.

Oh...I don't know the equipment... thanks
Jaime Solorza

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018, 9:24 PM Mathew Howard 
mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Yeah, but that's a B5c, not a C5c... 300mbps is easily possible with a B5c, but 
you wouldn't use those if you're doing it on the cheap.

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018, 10:11 PM Jaime Solorza 
mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com>> wrote:
The company I installed the AF24s for last week have a 12 mile link doing close 
to 300mbps on pair of Mimosas according to their tech.
Jaime Solorza

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018, 5:34 PM Chris Fabien 
mailto:ch...@lakenetmi.com>> wrote:
We had a 26 mile ePMP 1000 ptp link running for about 4 years. Overall it 
worked well, we got about 70 Mbps throughput. We did see ducting fade 
occasionally on calm summer mornings but the radio type is not going to change 
that.

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 1:12 PM, Sam Lambie 
mailto:samtaos...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I am looking at being cheap while going long today. We currently have a 32 mile 
5ghz rocket link with a 29dbi antenna and a the 34dbi antenna on each end. We 
get about 20 mbps fdd out of the link and I am looking at the epmp 1000 
connectorized gear to replace it for slightly better performance. I think 
according to linkplanner with the Force 200's I would get at least 45 mbps out 
of the link.
Has anyone done a link close to this long?
--
--
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Taosnet Wireless Tech.
575-758-7598 Office
www.Taosnet.com

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Re: [AFMUG] Long PTP link with epmp.

[Rory Conaway]

There are several options that will be an improvement over the Force 200’s for 
this.  The Mimosa C5c can hit as much as 500Mbps or more depending on the 
quality of the link for $130 per radio.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Sam Lambie
Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2018 10:13 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Long PTP link with epmp.

I am looking at being cheap while going long today. We currently have a 32 mile 
5ghz rocket link with a 29dbi antenna and a the 34dbi antenna on each end. We 
get about 20 mbps fdd out of the link and I am looking at the epmp 1000 
connectorized gear to replace it for slightly better performance. I think 
according to linkplanner with the Force 200's I would get at least 45 mbps out 
of the link.
Has anyone done a link close to this long?
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Taosnet Wireless Tech.
575-758-7598 Office
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Re: [AFMUG] Recent licensed link pricing?

[Rory Conaway]

Bridgewave will have the same features, probably at a lower price.

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Peter Kranz
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 4:31 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Recent licensed link pricing?

Word on the street is XPIC is delayed again, and the 18Ghz HP radio is not 
shipping anytime soon.

Peter Kranz
www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Peter Kranz
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2018 12:25 PM
To: 'Jeff Broadwick - Lists' mailto:jeffl...@att.net>>; 'Gino 
A. Villarini' mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>>
Cc: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Recent licensed link pricing?

Yes apparently the XPIC is squeaking out this month..

Peter Kranz
www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com

From: Jeff Broadwick - Lists mailto:jeffl...@att.net>>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2018 11:10 AM
To: Gino A. Villarini mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>>
Cc: Peter Kranz mailto:pkr...@unwiredltd.com>>; Eric 
Kuhnke mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>>; 
af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Recent licensed link pricing?

True.  I have a customer waiting on it.  Was told that it would be the end of 
this month...but they’ve missed those deadlines before.
Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com

On Jun 14, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Gino A. Villarini 
mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>> wrote:
Iirc the DW does not support xpic.  Supports dual pol, different channel.

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> on behalf of 
Peter Kranz mailto:pkr...@unwiredltd.com>>
Date: Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 12:18 PM
To: 'Jeff Broadwick - Lists' mailto:jeffl...@att.net>>, 
"eric.kuh...@gmail.com" 
mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>>
Cc: "af@af.afmug.com" 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Recent licensed link pricing?

Dual channel, 3’ dishes, built in XPIC.

Peter Kranz
www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Jeff Broadwick - Lists
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 5:27 PM
To: Eric Kuhnke mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>>
Cc: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Recent licensed link pricing?

Single or dual channel?  What size dishes? Xpic?  There are a whole bunch of 
variables that go into the price.
Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com




Gino A. Villarini

President

Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968



On Jun 13, 2018, at 6:44 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
If you've received pricing from both SIAE for the AlfoPlus2 and Dragonwave for 
that sort of setup, I would be interested to see (off-list) how they compare.

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 4:00 AM, Peter Kranz 
mailto:pkr...@unwiredltd.com>> wrote:
Anyone priced out 18Ghz capable hardware recently? Need to do a new 3 link 
build, thinking of using Dragonwave-X Harmony Enhanced MC radios. 
http://www.dragonwavex.com/products/packet-microwave/harmony-enhancedmc

Curious if any new players in the market are more cost effective than 
Dragonwave for a dual-carrier, all outdoor, 2x80Mhz 4096QAM capable radio.

Peter Kranz
www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com


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Re: [AFMUG] 10 GHz backhauls

[Rory Conaway]

Thanks.  SIAE was the one I couldn't remember but they can also do 20Gbps.  I 
don't follow NEC but we looked at this very hard a few months ago and SIAE and 
CableFree were the ones we narrowed it down to.  I didn't check Bridgewave 
though.

Rory

From: Jason Petrillo [mailto:ja...@lastmilegear.com]
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2018 11:14 AM
To: Danny Ben-Simhon; Tim Hardy; Rory Conaway
Cc: Mike Meluskey via AF; Email Server
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 10 GHz backhauls

SIAE and NEC as well.

From: AF  on behalf of Rory Conaway 

Sent: Friday, June 15, 2018 11:11:13 AM
To: Danny Ben-Simhon; Tim Hardy
Cc: Mike Meluskey via AF; Email Server
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 10 GHz backhauls

Several vendors have 10Gbps now, Bridgewave, CableFree, are 2 of them.  I think 
CableFree and one other can do 20Gbps also.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Danny Ben-Simhon
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2018 11:02 AM
To: Tim Hardy
Cc: Mike Meluskey via AF; Email Server
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 10 GHz backhauls

Agreed,  no other band is even close to offering 10Gbs full duplex with no need 
bulky xpic , mimos and non realistic ultra high QAMs
Sent from BlueMail<http://www.bluemail.me/r?b=13187>
On Jun 15, 2018, at 20:55, Tim Hardy 
mailto:thardy...@gmail.com>> wrote:
In the US, other than possibly 70-90 GHz there is no licensed channel plan to 
support that kind of channel bandwidth..


On Jun 15, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Email Server 
mailto:cablefree.em...@gmail.com>> wrote:

10GHz backhaul radios certainly do exist.  Most countries allow only quite 
narrow channels in this band.

10Gbps MMW links also certainly do exist: 128QAM or 256QAM modulation, 2000MHz 
channel width gives 10Gbps full duplex.

Our company - CableFree - offer both of the above, fully shipping + available.

Best regards

Stephen


On 15 June 2018 at 18:27, Gino A. Villarini 
mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>> wrote:
Interesting.. I did not know this



From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> on behalf of 
Tim Hardy mailto:thardy...@gmail.com>>
Date: Friday, June 15, 2018 at 12:43 PM
To: Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>
Cc: "af@af.afmug.com<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>" 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 10 GHz backhauls

Yep, licensed band US limited to 5 MHz bandwidth



Gino A. Villarini

President

Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968



On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 12:38 PM mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> 
wrote:
Do these exist?
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Re: [AFMUG] 10 GHz backhauls

[Rory Conaway]

Several vendors have 10Gbps now, Bridgewave, CableFree, are 2 of them.  I think 
CableFree and one other can do 20Gbps also.

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Danny Ben-Simhon
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2018 11:02 AM
To: Tim Hardy
Cc: Mike Meluskey via AF; Email Server
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 10 GHz backhauls

Agreed,  no other band is even close to offering 10Gbs full duplex with no need 
bulky xpic , mimos and non realistic ultra high QAMs
Sent from BlueMail
On Jun 15, 2018, at 20:55, Tim Hardy 
mailto:thardy...@gmail.com>> wrote:
In the US, other than possibly 70-90 GHz there is no licensed channel plan to 
support that kind of channel bandwidth..



On Jun 15, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Email Server 
mailto:cablefree.em...@gmail.com>> wrote:

10GHz backhaul radios certainly do exist.  Most countries allow only quite 
narrow channels in this band.

10Gbps MMW links also certainly do exist: 128QAM or 256QAM modulation, 2000MHz 
channel width gives 10Gbps full duplex.

Our company - CableFree - offer both of the above, fully shipping + available.

Best regards

Stephen


On 15 June 2018 at 18:27, Gino A. Villarini 
mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>> wrote:
Interesting.. I did not know this



From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> on behalf of 
Tim Hardy mailto:thardy...@gmail.com>>
Date: Friday, June 15, 2018 at 12:43 PM
To: Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>
Cc: "af@af.afmug.com" 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 10 GHz backhauls

Yep, licensed band US limited to 5 MHz bandwidth



Gino A. Villarini

President

Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968



On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 12:38 PM mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> 
wrote:
Do these exist?
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Re: [AFMUG] Fwd: Limited run of AW3464 900mhz dual-slant omnis actually available

[Rory Conaway]

Did they set a price for them?

Rory

From: AF  On Behalf Of Colin Stanners
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2018 8:41 PM
Cc: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fwd: Limited run of AW3464 900mhz dual-slant omnis 
actually available

The omni is large, but look at the size of 4x of the sectors (also the cost of 
3x additional non-lite APs) and the omni becomes quite a bit more reasonable 
for small numbers of nearby subscribers.

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 10:36 PM, Brandon Yuchasz 
mailto:li...@gogebicrange.net>> wrote:
Interesting concept. I thought omni would be way to large in 900 dual pol?

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On 
Behalf Of Jeff Broadwick - Lists
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 4:17 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Fwd: Limited run of AW3464 900mhz dual-slant omnis actually 
available

> I just checked with Carey.  He says he doesn’t have stock, but if there is 
> enough demand, they could bring some in.  9 week lead time.
>
> Jeff Broadwick
> CTIconnect
> 312-205-2519 Office
> 574-220-7826 Cell
> jbroadw...@cticonnect.com
>
>> On Jun 13, 2018, at 7:12 AM, Colin Stanners 
>> mailto:cstann...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> For those who can fit some in their network/business plan, a limited run of 
>> Alpha AW3464 900mhz dual-slant omnis is now actually available. Contact 
>> Carey at Crossover Distribution.


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