Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
2009/1/9 Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org: This is an attempt to articulate a virtual world infrastructure that will be adequate for the development of human-level AGI http://www.goertzel.org/papers/BlocksNBeadsWorld.pdf goertzel.org seems to be down. So I can't refresh my memory of the paper. Most of the paper is taken up by conceptual and requirements issues, but at the end specific world-design proposals are made. This complements my earlier paper on AGI Preschool. It attempts to define what kind of underlying virtual world infrastructure an effective AGI preschool would minimally require. In some ways this question is under defined. It depends what the learning system is like. If it is like a human brain it would need a sufficiently (lawfully) changing world to stimulate its neural plasticity (rain, seasons, new buildings, death of pets, growth of its own body). That is a never ending series of connectible but new situations to push the brain in different directions. Cat's eyes deprived of stimulation go blind, so a brain in an unstimulating environment might fail to develop. So I would say that not only are certain dynamics important but there should also be a large variety of externally presented examples. Consider for example learning electronics, the metaphor of rivers and dams is often used to teach it, but if the only example of fluid dynamics you have come across is a flat pool of beads, then you might not get the metaphor. Similarly a kettle boiling dry might be used to teach about part of the water cycle. There may be lots of other subconscious analogies of these sorts that have to be made when we are young that we don't know about. It would be my worry when implementing a virtual world for AI development. If it is not like a human brain (in this respect), then the question is a lot harder. Also are you expecting the AIs to make tools out of the blocks and beads? Will --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
Yes, I'm expecting the AI to make tools from blocks and beads No, i'm not attempting to make a detailed simulation of the human brain/body, just trying to use vaguely humanlike embodiment and high-level mind-architecture together with computer science algorithms, to achieve AGI On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 5:56 AM, William Pearson wil.pear...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/1/9 Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org: This is an attempt to articulate a virtual world infrastructure that will be adequate for the development of human-level AGI http://www.goertzel.org/papers/BlocksNBeadsWorld.pdf goertzel.org seems to be down. So I can't refresh my memory of the paper. Most of the paper is taken up by conceptual and requirements issues, but at the end specific world-design proposals are made. This complements my earlier paper on AGI Preschool. It attempts to define what kind of underlying virtual world infrastructure an effective AGI preschool would minimally require. In some ways this question is under defined. It depends what the learning system is like. If it is like a human brain it would need a sufficiently (lawfully) changing world to stimulate its neural plasticity (rain, seasons, new buildings, death of pets, growth of its own body). That is a never ending series of connectible but new situations to push the brain in different directions. Cat's eyes deprived of stimulation go blind, so a brain in an unstimulating environment might fail to develop. So I would say that not only are certain dynamics important but there should also be a large variety of externally presented examples. Consider for example learning electronics, the metaphor of rivers and dams is often used to teach it, but if the only example of fluid dynamics you have come across is a flat pool of beads, then you might not get the metaphor. Similarly a kettle boiling dry might be used to teach about part of the water cycle. There may be lots of other subconscious analogies of these sorts that have to be made when we are young that we don't know about. It would be my worry when implementing a virtual world for AI development. If it is not like a human brain (in this respect), then the question is a lot harder. Also are you expecting the AIs to make tools out of the blocks and beads? Will --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI b...@goertzel.org This is no place to stop -- half way between ape and angel -- Benjamin Disraeli --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
2009/1/13 Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org: Yes, I'm expecting the AI to make tools from blocks and beads No, i'm not attempting to make a detailed simulation of the human brain/body, just trying to use vaguely humanlike embodiment and high-level mind-architecture together with computer science algorithms, to achieve AGI I wasn't suggesting you were/should. The comment about ones own changing body was simply one of the many examples of things that happen in the world that we have to try and cope with and adjust to, making our brains flexible and leading to development rather than stagnation. As we don't have a formal specification for all the mind agents in opencog it is hard to know how it will actually learn. The question is how humanlike do you have to be for the problem of lack of varied stimulation to lead to developmental problems. If you emphasised that you were going to make the world the AI exist in alive, that is not just play pens for the AI/humans to do things and see results of those things but some sort of consistent ecology, I would be happier. Humans managed to develop fairly well before there was such thing as structured pre-school, the replication of that sort of system seems more important for AI growth, as humans still develop there as well as structured teacher lead pre-school. Since I can now get to the paper some further thoughts. Concepts that would seem hard to form in your world is organic growth and phase changes of materials. Also naive chemistry would seem to be somewhat important (cooking, dissolving materials, burning: these are things that a pre-schooler would come into contact more at home than in structured pre-school). Will --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
Hi, Since I can now get to the paper some further thoughts. Concepts that would seem hard to form in your world is organic growth and phase changes of materials. Also naive chemistry would seem to be somewhat important (cooking, dissolving materials, burning: these are things that a pre-schooler would come into contact more at home than in structured pre-school). Actually, you could probably get plantlike growth using beads, via methods similar to L-systems (used in graphics for simulating plant growth) Woody plants could be obtained using a combination of blocks and beads, as well.. Phase changes would probably arise via phase transitions in bead conglomerates, with the control parameters driven by changes in adhesion However, naive chemistry would exist only in a far more primitive form than in the real world, I'll have to admit. This is just a shortcoming of the BlocksNBeadsWorld, and I think it's an acceptable one... ben --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
Melting and boiling at least should be doable: assign every bead a temperature, and let solid interbead bonds turn liquid above a certain temperature and disappear completely above some higher temperature. --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
And it occurs to me you could even have fire. Let fire be an element, whose beads have negative gravitational mass. Beads of fuel elements like wood have a threshold temperature above which they will turn into fire beads, with release of additional heat. --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
Indeed... but cake-baking just won't have the same nuances ;-) On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Russell Wallace russell.wall...@gmail.com wrote: Melting and boiling at least should be doable: assign every bead a temperature, and let solid interbead bonds turn liquid above a certain temperature and disappear completely above some higher temperature. --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI b...@goertzel.org This is no place to stop -- half way between ape and angel -- Benjamin Disraeli --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
Yeah :-) though boiling an egg by putting it in a pot of boiling water, that much I think should be doable. On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org wrote: Indeed... but cake-baking just won't have the same nuances ;-) On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Russell Wallace russell.wall...@gmail.com wrote: Melting and boiling at least should be doable: assign every bead a temperature, and let solid interbead bonds turn liquid above a certain temperature and disappear completely above some higher temperature. --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI b...@goertzel.org This is no place to stop -- half way between ape and angel -- Benjamin Disraeli --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
2009/1/12 Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org: The problem with simulations that run slower than real time is that they aren't much good for running AIs interactively with humans... and for AGI we want the combination of social and physical interaction There's plenty you can do with real-time interaction. OTOH, there's lots you can do with batch processing, e.g. tweak the AI's parameters, and see how it performs on the same task. And of course you can have a regression test suite of tasks for the AI to perform as you improve it. How useful this sort of approach is depends on how much processing power you need: if processing is very expensive, it makes less sense to re-run an extensive test suite whenever you make a change. -- Philip Hunt, cabala...@googlemail.com Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
2009/1/9 Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org: Hi all, I intend to submit the following paper to JAGI shortly, but I figured I'd run it past you folks on this list first, and incorporate any useful feedback into the draft I submit Perhaps the paper could go into more detail about what sensory input the AGI would have. E.g. you might specify that its vision system would consist of 2 pixelmaps (binocular vision) each 1000x1000 pixels, in three colours and 16 bits of intensity, updated 20 times per second. Of course, you may want to specify the visual system differently, but it's useful to say so and make your assumptions concrete. -- Philip Hunt, cabala...@googlemail.com Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
Actually, I view that as a matter for the AGI system, not the world. Different AGI systems hooked up to the same world may choose to receive different inputs from it Binocular vision, for instance, is not necessary in a virtual world, and some AGIs might want to use it whereas others don't... On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Philip Hunt cabala...@googlemail.com wrote: 2009/1/9 Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org: Hi all, I intend to submit the following paper to JAGI shortly, but I figured I'd run it past you folks on this list first, and incorporate any useful feedback into the draft I submit Perhaps the paper could go into more detail about what sensory input the AGI would have. E.g. you might specify that its vision system would consist of 2 pixelmaps (binocular vision) each 1000x1000 pixels, in three colours and 16 bits of intensity, updated 20 times per second. Of course, you may want to specify the visual system differently, but it's useful to say so and make your assumptions concrete. -- Philip Hunt, cabala...@googlemail.com Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI b...@goertzel.org This is no place to stop -- half way between ape and angel -- Benjamin Disraeli --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
My response to Ben's paper is to be cautious about drawing conclusions from simulated environments. Human level AGI has an algorithmic complexity of 10^9 bits (as estimated by Landauer). It is not possible to learn this much information from an environment that is less complex. If a baby AI did perform well in a simplified simulation of the world, it would not imply that the same system would work in the real world. It would be like training a language model on a simple, artificial language and then concluding that the system could be scaled up to learn English. This is a lesson from my dissertation work in network intrusion anomaly detection. This was a machine learning task in which the system was trained on attack-free network traffic, and then identified anything out of the ordinary as malicious. For development and testing, we used the 1999 MIT-DARPA Lincoln Labs data set consisting of 5 weeks of synthetic network traffic with hundreds of labeled attacks. The test set developers took great care to make the data as realistic as possible. They collected statistics from real networks, built an isolated network of 4 real computers running different operating systems, and thousands of simulated computers that generated HTTP requests to public websites and mailing lists, and generated synthetic email using English word bigram frequencies, and other kinds of traffic. In my work I discovered a simple algorithm that beat the best intrusion detection systems available at the time. I parsed network packets into individual 1-4 byte fields, recorded all the values that ever occurred at least once in training, and flagged any new value in the test data as suspicious, with a score inversely proportional to the size of the set of values observed in training and proportional to the time since the previous anomaly. Not surprisingly, the simple algorithm failed on real network traffic. There were too many false alarms for it to be even remotely useful. The reason it worked on the synthetic traffic was that it was algorithmically simple compared to real traffic. For example, one of the most effective tests was the TTL value, a counter that decrements with each IP routing hop, intended to prevent routing loops. It turned out that most of the attacks were simulated from a machine that was one hop further away than the machines simulating normal traffic. A problem like that could have been fixed, but there were a dozen others that I found, and probably many that I didn't find. It's not that the test set developers weren't careful. They spent probably $1 million developing it (several people over 2 years). It's that you can't simulate the high complexity of thousands of computers and human users with anything less than that. Simple problems have simple solutions, but that's not AGI. -- Matt Mahoney, matmaho...@yahoo.com --- On Fri, 1/9/09, Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org wrote: From: Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org Subject: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It? To: agi@v2.listbox.com Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 5:58 PM Hi all, I intend to submit the following paper to JAGI shortly, but I figured I'd run it past you folks on this list first, and incorporate any useful feedback into the draft I submit This is an attempt to articulate a virtual world infrastructure that will be adequate for the development of human-level AGI http://www.goertzel.org/papers/BlocksNBeadsWorld.pdf Most of the paper is taken up by conceptual and requirements issues, but at the end specific world-design proposals are made. This complements my earlier paper on AGI Preschool. It attempts to define what kind of underlying virtual world infrastructure an effective AGI preschool would minimally require. thx Ben G -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI b...@goertzel.org I intend to live forever, or die trying. -- Groucho Marx --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
Matt, The complexity of a simulated environment is tricky to estimate, if the environment contains complex self-organizing dynamics, random number generation, and complex human interactions ... ben On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Matt Mahoney matmaho...@yahoo.com wrote: My response to Ben's paper is to be cautious about drawing conclusions from simulated environments. Human level AGI has an algorithmic complexity of 10^9 bits (as estimated by Landauer). It is not possible to learn this much information from an environment that is less complex. If a baby AI did perform well in a simplified simulation of the world, it would not imply that the same system would work in the real world. It would be like training a language model on a simple, artificial language and then concluding that the system could be scaled up to learn English. This is a lesson from my dissertation work in network intrusion anomaly detection. This was a machine learning task in which the system was trained on attack-free network traffic, and then identified anything out of the ordinary as malicious. For development and testing, we used the 1999 MIT-DARPA Lincoln Labs data set consisting of 5 weeks of synthetic network traffic with hundreds of labeled attacks. The test set developers took great care to make the data as realistic as possible. They collected statistics from real networks, built an isolated network of 4 real computers running different operating systems, and thousands of simulated computers that generated HTTP requests to public websites and mailing lists, and generated synthetic email using English word bigram frequencies, and other kinds of traffic. In my work I discovered a simple algorithm that beat the best intrusion detection systems available at the time. I parsed network packets into individual 1-4 byte fields, recorded all the values that ever occurred at least once in training, and flagged any new value in the test data as suspicious, with a score inversely proportional to the size of the set of values observed in training and proportional to the time since the previous anomaly. Not surprisingly, the simple algorithm failed on real network traffic. There were too many false alarms for it to be even remotely useful. The reason it worked on the synthetic traffic was that it was algorithmically simple compared to real traffic. For example, one of the most effective tests was the TTL value, a counter that decrements with each IP routing hop, intended to prevent routing loops. It turned out that most of the attacks were simulated from a machine that was one hop further away than the machines simulating normal traffic. A problem like that could have been fixed, but there were a dozen others that I found, and probably many that I didn't find. It's not that the test set developers weren't careful. They spent probably $1 million developing it (several people over 2 years). It's that you can't simulate the high complexity of thousands of computers and human users with anything less than that. Simple problems have simple solutions, but that's not AGI. -- Matt Mahoney, matmaho...@yahoo.com --- On Fri, 1/9/09, Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org wrote: From: Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org Subject: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It? To: agi@v2.listbox.com Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 5:58 PM Hi all, I intend to submit the following paper to JAGI shortly, but I figured I'd run it past you folks on this list first, and incorporate any useful feedback into the draft I submit This is an attempt to articulate a virtual world infrastructure that will be adequate for the development of human-level AGI http://www.goertzel.org/papers/BlocksNBeadsWorld.pdf Most of the paper is taken up by conceptual and requirements issues, but at the end specific world-design proposals are made. This complements my earlier paper on AGI Preschool. It attempts to define what kind of underlying virtual world infrastructure an effective AGI preschool would minimally require. thx Ben G -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI b...@goertzel.org I intend to live forever, or die trying. -- Groucho Marx --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI b...@goertzel.org This is no place to stop -- half way between ape and angel -- Benjamin Disraeli --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
--- On Tue, 1/13/09, Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org wrote: The complexity of a simulated environment is tricky to estimate, if the environment contains complex self-organizing dynamics, random number generation, and complex human interactions ... In fact it's not computable. But if you write 10^6 bits of code for your simulator, you know it's less than 10^6 bits. But I wonder which is a better test of AI. http://cs.fit.edu/~mmahoney/compression/text.html is based on natural language prediction, equivalent to the Turing test. The data has 10^9 bits of complexity, just enough to train a human adult language model. http://cs.fit.edu/~mmahoney/compression/uiq/ is based on Legg and Hutter's universal intelligence. It probably has a few hundred bits of complexity, designed to be just beyond the reach of tractability for universal algorithms like AIXI^tl. -- Matt Mahoney, matmaho...@yahoo.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
I think this sort of virtual world is an excellent idea. I agree with Benjamin Johnston's idea of a unified object model where everything consists of beads. I notice you mentioned distributing the computation. This would certainly be valuable in the long run, but for the first version I would suggest having each simulation instance run on a single machine with the fastest physics capable GPU on the market, and accepting that it will still run slower than real time. Let an experiment be an overnight run, and use multiple machines by running multiple experiments at the same time. That would make the programming for the first version more tractable. --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
The problem with simulations that run slower than real time is that they aren't much good for running AIs interactively with humans... and for AGI we want the combination of social and physical interaction However, I agree that for an initial prototype implementation of bead physics that would be the best approach... On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:30 AM, Russell Wallace russell.wall...@gmail.com wrote: I think this sort of virtual world is an excellent idea. I agree with Benjamin Johnston's idea of a unified object model where everything consists of beads. I notice you mentioned distributing the computation. This would certainly be valuable in the long run, but for the first version I would suggest having each simulation instance run on a single machine with the fastest physics capable GPU on the market, and accepting that it will still run slower than real time. Let an experiment be an overnight run, and use multiple machines by running multiple experiments at the same time. That would make the programming for the first version more tractable. --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI b...@goertzel.org This is no place to stop -- half way between ape and angel -- Benjamin Disraeli --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
I think this sort of virtual world is an excellent idea. I agree with Benjamin Johnston's idea of a unified object model where everything consists of beads. I notice you mentioned distributing the computation. This would certainly be valuable in the long run, but for the first version I would suggest having each simulation instance run on a single machine with the fastest physics capable GPU on the market, and accepting that it will still run slower than real time. Let an experiment be an overnight run, and use multiple machines by running multiple experiments at the same time. That would make the programming for the first version more tractable. Actually, I think it would be easier, more useful and more portable to distribute the computation rather than trying to make it to run on a GPU. This kind of computation is very local - objects can primarily interact only with objects that are nearby. A straightforward distribution scheme would be to partition the world spatially - slice up the world into different regions and run each region on a different PC. A first version might use a fixed partitioning, but more sophisticated versions could have partitions that grow or shrink according to their computational load, or could have partitions that are based on a balanced spatial indexing scheme. I believe that my scheme is fairly scalable - in the order of O(n log n) (i.e., a fairly fixed local computation for each node in the graph, including a search in a spatial index to find its nearest neighbors). My current implementation is O(n^2) because I haven't done any indexing. The great thing about solving distribution up front is that you improve the performance without any development costs, simply by throwing more computers at it. Consider, for example, that it only costs US$20/hour to rent 100 High CPU computers from Amazon EC2. That is a lot of computing power! -Ben --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 1:22 AM, Benjamin Johnston johns...@it.uts.edu.au wrote: Actually, I think it would be easier, more useful and more portable to distribute the computation rather than trying to make it to run on a GPU. If it would be easier, fair enough; I've never programmed a GPU, I don't really know how difficult that is. --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
RE: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
Hi Ben, I've been looking at the same problem from a different angle... rather than searching for simplified artificial worlds for an agent to live in, I've been searching for models of the world to be used directly for reasoning (i.e., the internal world for an agent situated in the real world). I'll be interested to see what you do with CogDevWorld, however you may be interested in some of the specifics of my approach: I take the approach that *everything* should be beads. I model the world with 'beads' (that are point masses, and carry heat, color, etc), 'joins' to structure them together (and that can change under stress or heat) and 'surfaces' (convex hulls around small set of beads) that stop things from being permeable. Solid objects can be constructed from beads with rigid (but 'snap'-able) joins; flexible objects by beads with flexible joins; gases by weightless unjoined beads, and liquids/adhesives by 'local joins' that attract and repel their neighbours (to create incompressible liquids with surface tension). I like this approach because everything is uniform - not only does the same mechanism simulate liquids, solids and gases; but more importantly, new laws of physics can be added 'orthogonally' to the existing laws. The approach is flexible and open-ended. I haven't had the resources or time to explore the different laws of physics for such models, but it isn't hard to create realistic objects in simple environments. This approach is far more computationally expensive than, say, rigid-body physics of complete object models; but the locality of the computations means that it should scale very well. (In fact, the orthogonality of the laws of physics means that you could support many more physical laws than could be reasonable computed simultaneously, but only enable laws as they are relevant to particular problems - e.g., turning on laws of heat diffusion and state-of-matter changes only when the agent is interacting with, say, the fridge or fire). I outlined the basic principle in this paper: http://www.comirit.com/papers/commonsense07.pdf Since then, I've changed some of the details a bit (some were described in my AGI-08 paper), added convex hulls and experimented with more laws of physics; but the basic idea has stayed the same. -Ben -Original Message- From: Ben Goertzel [mailto:b...@goertzel.org] Sent: Saturday, 10 January 2009 9:58 AM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It? Hi all, I intend to submit the following paper to JAGI shortly, but I figured I'd run it past you folks on this list first, and incorporate any useful feedback into the draft I submit This is an attempt to articulate a virtual world infrastructure that will be adequate for the development of human-level AGI http://www.goertzel.org/papers/BlocksNBeadsWorld.pdf Most of the paper is taken up by conceptual and requirements issues, but at the end specific world-design proposals are made. This complements my earlier paper on AGI Preschool. It attempts to define what kind of underlying virtual world infrastructure an effective AGI preschool would minimally require. thx Ben G -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI b...@goertzel.org I intend to live forever, or die trying. -- Groucho Marx --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
2009/1/10 Nathan Cook nathan.c...@gmail.com: What about vibration? We have specialized mechanoreceptors to detect vibration (actually vibration and pressure - presumably there's processing to separate the two). It's vibration that lets us feel fine texture, via the stick-slip friction between fingertip and object. There are many different senses that can come into play. For humans, the primary ones are sight, sound and gross physical locations (bumping into something). Ben makes a point of saying human-like AGI. If we were shooting for fish-like, we'd need to include the lateral line, which is a sensory organ that humans simply don't have (its used to detect movement and vibration) Of course, I'm interested in science-like AGI -- so, for example, in atomic-force microscopes (AFM), its been noticed that stiction (the stick/slip friction that you talk about) is a very good way of sensing atomic-scale properties. There's been some effort to attach an AFM to a spring-and-lever-mounted, motorized ball/handle-grip, haptic interface so that humans could directly sense, via arm and wrist muscles, atomic-scale Casimir forces etc. My point is that the world of sensory input can be much richer than a small number of basic senses. We can already augument human vision with infrared googles, but it would be even cooler to see in four primary colors (appearently 1 on 50 women (but no men) have more than three color receptors in their retina) Now that would be something. --linas --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
What about vibration? We have specialized mechanoreceptors to detect vibration (actually vibration and pressure - presumably there's processing to separate the two). It's vibration that lets us feel fine texture, via the stick-slip friction between fingertip and object. On a related note, even a very fine powder of very low friction feels different to water - how can you capture the sensation of water using beads and blocks of a reasonably large size? -- Nathan Cook --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Nathan Cook nathan.c...@gmail.com wrote: What about vibration? We have specialized mechanoreceptors to detect vibration (actually vibration and pressure - presumably there's processing to separate the two). It's vibration that lets us feel fine texture, via the stick-slip friction between fingertip and object. Actually, letting beads vibrate at various frequencies would seem perfectly reasonable ... and could lead to interesting behaviors in sets of flexibly coupled beads. I think this would be a good addition to the model, thanks! On a related note, even a very fine powder of very low friction feels different to water - how can you capture the sensation of water using beads and blocks of a reasonably large size? The objective of a CogDevWorld such as BlocksNBeadsWorld is explicitly **not** to precisely simulate the sensations of being in the real world. My question to you is: What important cognitive ability is drastically more easily developable given a world that contains a distinction between fluids and various sorts of bead-conglomerates? -- Ben G --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org wrote: On a related note, even a very fine powder of very low friction feels different to water - how can you capture the sensation of water using beads and blocks of a reasonably large size? The objective of a CogDevWorld such as BlocksNBeadsWorld is explicitly **not** to precisely simulate the sensations of being in the real world. My question to you is: What important cognitive ability is drastically more easily developable given a world that contains a distinction between fluids and various sorts of bead-conglomerates? The objection is not valid in equating beads with dry powder. Certain forms of adhesion of the beads form a good approximation to fluids. You can have your hand wet with sticky beads etc. The model feels underspecified to me, but I'm OK with that, the ideas conveyed. It doesn't feel fair to insist there's no fluid dynamics modeled though ;-) Best regards. --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
2009/1/10 Lukasz Stafiniak lukst...@gmail.com: On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org wrote: On a related note, even a very fine powder of very low friction feels different to water - how can you capture the sensation of water using beads and blocks of a reasonably large size? The objective of a CogDevWorld such as BlocksNBeadsWorld is explicitly **not** to precisely simulate the sensations of being in the real world. My question to you is: What important cognitive ability is drastically more easily developable given a world that contains a distinction between fluids and various sorts of bead-conglomerates? The objection is not valid in equating beads with dry powder. Certain forms of adhesion of the beads form a good approximation to fluids. You can have your hand wet with sticky beads etc. This would require at least a two-factor adhesion-cohesion model. But Ben has a good rejoinder to my comment. -- Nathan Cook --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
The model feels underspecified to me, but I'm OK with that, the ideas conveyed. It doesn't feel fair to insist there's no fluid dynamics modeled though ;-) Yes, the next step would be to write out detailed equations for the model. I didn't do that in the paper because I figured that would be a fairly empty exercise unless I also implemented some kind of simple simulation of the model. With this sort of thing, it's easy to write down equations that look good, but one doesn't really know if they make sense till one's run some simulations, done some parameter tuning, etc. Which seems like a quite fun exercise, but I just didn't get to it yet... actually it would be sensible to do this together with some nice visualization... ben --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
It turns out that nerve cells require physical vibrations to work correctly. An odd discovery to say the least. But movement of an electrostatic charge in a standing electromagnetic polarization field may be useful for measuring the vibrations of odor molecules for the odor system. Part of an odor molecule moves in an out of the pore of a nerve cell. An odor signal then would be a summation of averages of the different parts being stored on a standing wave pattern of about 30 hertz. You can duplicate any odor if you can get the same ratio of the small parts of the original molecule. - Original Message - From: Nathan Cook To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It? What about vibration? We have specialized mechanoreceptors to detect vibration (actually vibration and pressure - presumably there's processing to separate the two). It's vibration that lets us feel fine texture, via the stick-slip friction between fingertip and object. On a related note, even a very fine powder of very low friction feels different to water - how can you capture the sensation of water using beads and blocks of a reasonably large size? -- Nathan Cook -- agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=126863270-d7b0b0 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
[agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
Hi all, I intend to submit the following paper to JAGI shortly, but I figured I'd run it past you folks on this list first, and incorporate any useful feedback into the draft I submit This is an attempt to articulate a virtual world infrastructure that will be adequate for the development of human-level AGI http://www.goertzel.org/papers/BlocksNBeadsWorld.pdf Most of the paper is taken up by conceptual and requirements issues, but at the end specific world-design proposals are made. This complements my earlier paper on AGI Preschool. It attempts to define what kind of underlying virtual world infrastructure an effective AGI preschool would minimally require. thx Ben G -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI b...@goertzel.org I intend to live forever, or die trying. -- Groucho Marx --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=123753653-47f84b Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
Goertzel this is an interesting line of investigation. What about in world sound perception? On 1/9/09, Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org wrote: Hi all, I intend to submit the following paper to JAGI shortly, but I figured I'd run it past you folks on this list first, and incorporate any useful feedback into the draft I submit This is an attempt to articulate a virtual world infrastructure that will be adequate for the development of human-level AGI http://www.goertzel.org/papers/BlocksNBeadsWorld.pdf Most of the paper is taken up by conceptual and requirements issues, but at the end specific world-design proposals are made. This complements my earlier paper on AGI Preschool. It attempts to define what kind of underlying virtual world infrastructure an effective AGI preschool would minimally require. thx Ben G -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI b...@goertzel.org I intend to live forever, or die trying. -- Groucho Marx --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=123753653-47f84b Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
It's actually mentioned there, though not emphasized... there's a section on senses... ben g On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 8:10 PM, Eric Burton brila...@gmail.com wrote: Goertzel this is an interesting line of investigation. What about in world sound perception? On 1/9/09, Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org wrote: Hi all, I intend to submit the following paper to JAGI shortly, but I figured I'd run it past you folks on this list first, and incorporate any useful feedback into the draft I submit This is an attempt to articulate a virtual world infrastructure that will be adequate for the development of human-level AGI http://www.goertzel.org/papers/BlocksNBeadsWorld.pdf Most of the paper is taken up by conceptual and requirements issues, but at the end specific world-design proposals are made. This complements my earlier paper on AGI Preschool. It attempts to define what kind of underlying virtual world infrastructure an effective AGI preschool would minimally require. thx Ben G -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI b...@goertzel.org I intend to live forever, or die trying. -- Groucho Marx --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI b...@goertzel.org I intend to live forever, or die trying. -- Groucho Marx --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=123753653-47f84b Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] What Must a World Be That a Humanlike Intelligence May Develop In It?
Not really related to your topic, but it sort of isMany years ago Disney made a movie about an alien cat that was telepathic and came to earth in a Flying saucer. A stupid movie because cats can not develop the technology to do this. Recently I realized that while cat can not do this a species like us can transplant computer interface chips into cats to allow them to communicate to our robots, computers, and manufacturing robot factory. We die out as a species for unknown reasons but the cat continues our civilization. In other words a cat can pilot a UFO and land on earth to investigate the life on earth. Ron Blue Assistant Professor of Psychology Lehigh Carbon Community College rb...@lccc.edu --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=123753653-47f84b Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
