Re: [Audiogames-reflector] An interesting scenario, thoughts?
Re: An interesting scenario, thoughts? @Joseph Westhouse: Ive started to study this issue, but unfortunately, I think it might be a question that we cant answer, because we dont have enough detail. If you look at the various stories in the different gospels, sometimes 1 gospel has Jesus seeming to be initiating the healing, and in other gospels it clearly shows that he was asked. Also, sometimes the entire stories arent given, with the gospels stating only that Jesus healed many people at so-and-so place, not saying if he did it because he was asked or not. So all I can really say is that in all of the detailed stories of Jesus healing people, IE those that are more than 1 or 2 verses, he is always asked, either by the person in question, or by someone on behalf of that person (a father, for example). But that doesnt mean that he was always asked, because in a lot of the accounts it just doesnt say.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166480#p166480 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] An interesting scenario, thoughts?
Re: An interesting scenario, thoughts? Thanks guys for all the responses so far. I knew I could trust in this community to bring a variety of different views. As I think more about the incident, I realise that my main gripe isnt as such that the guy wanted to pray for my friend and I, but instead that he randomly barged into the middle of our lunch to do so; while we were simply catching up a bit after a long and tiresome day of classes. That makes me wonder if being nice in these situations are always the best thing? Can anyone be blamed if they acted impolitely at some point in the past if this happened to them? I very much doubt Ill be half as nice should this happen to me again. The praying for my blindness thing isnt new for me either. Similar to what happened to Cinnamon, it was when I was much younger and with my parents around. Even then, when my faith in Christianity was strong, I fe lt uncomfortable afterwards. I believed, like assault_freak and fastfinge, that it was how I was made and that its not going to change. Even today I hold to that belief to an extent. Though I must add, not even that argument deterred the guy much, as he seemed to, very firmly, believe in miracles. He told stories of how he heard (I must emphasise, he said heard of, not seen for himself) of instances where people were healed through prayer. Ive never seen or witnessed something like this, so at this stage in my life Im afraid I wont take such stories very seriously. Having considered it Ive never heard any kind of rational explanations and all these stories are always more hearsay than anything else. But thats just my opinion, feel free to disagree. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166237#p166237 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] An interesting scenario, thoughts?
Re: An interesting scenario, thoughts? @Joseph Westhouse: Dont misunderstand: I do agree that it could be Gods will that I be cured. But if that is his will, I strongly believe that he would let me know through the holy spirit. Notice that in all of the biblical examples we have of healing prayer that I can think of, it was the sick person who *asked* that someone prayed for him. Jesus didnt go up to the sick and ask, Can I pray for you so you will be healed? It was exactly the opposite. The sick person was prompted by the spirit to beg for healing prayer. And I also believe that if it is Gods will that I be healed, it is because it is Gods plan for my life, not as a side effect of his plans to glorify someone else by granting them a miracle. Unfortunately, from everyone thus far who has asked to pray for me, Ive gotten the vibe that they want to show off how spiritual and faithful they are, and take credit that any miracle occurred because of them , not God. That might even be why theyre asking me and praying in public in the first place, instead of praying quietly to themselves. And I just dont feel right accepting that kind of prayer on my behalf.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166241#p166241 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] An interesting scenario, thoughts?
Re: An interesting scenario, thoughts? Hey folks. Brendan, showing at least courtesy to a stranger is the least we can do. They are not on our skin to actually know if it is painful or not to live as a blind person. There are many ways to say no and most of them wont hurt anyone. Ignoring this kind of people could be in most cases better than saying something rude.Best regards, Haramir.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166254#p166254 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] An interesting scenario, thoughts?
Re: An interesting scenario, thoughts? @Joseph Westhouse: If the question interests you, the page at:http://stronginfaith.org/article.php?page=9seems to be a good place to start. Unfortunately, getting into that here is probably way off-topic.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166279#p166279 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] An interesting scenario, thoughts?
Re: An interesting scenario, thoughts? Agree again with Joseph and fastfinge. I feel like God would heal me if it was in his will to do so. And to my memory as well... most of the examples of healing in the bible were by people coming up to Jesus. But I do believe there were a couple of examples where, as joseph said, the person wasnt the one initiating. But remember that every time Jesus healed someone it was so that the glory of God could be demonstrated... having said that, I do agree about getting some of the vibes that seem like the person is praying more for themselves than because they believe it to be Gods will.Brendan, youre right... and I would probably be bothered by the same thing. The prayer isnt so much the problem... but interruption of your meal. If I were him, even if I wanted to pray for you I wouldve asked to pray for you and then left and prayed in my own time. Intercession and prayer in public should be done on very specific occasions, not on street corners or in restaurants, at least in my view. Prayer is a private thing and your own private time with god, even if you are praying to interceed... youre praying in order to ask for a miracle, not to demand one... sometimes I feel like people who pray over me like that are more saying the prayer in the spirit of some sort of incantation rather than an honest from the heart prayer. As to reacting to such people.. well, its always important to be gracious, though Ive been pretty frazzled at times, and sometimes act a little more impolitely than I should. But I think the best reaction is to just say no thank you and leave it at that. lolURL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166288#p166288 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] An interesting scenario, thoughts?
Re: An interesting scenario, thoughts? Ive had this happen twice in my life living in North Carolina which is in a pretty religious region of the US.1. I was pretty young, somewhere between 10 and 12. I dont remember if I still had partial sight. I was with my granny in a Chinese restaurant, and we were sitting at the table eating. A man came up to us, and I supposed he asked my granny if he could pray for me. My fuzzy memory says she said sure in a sort of confused kind of way. The man put his hand over my eyes and did his thing. I sat there slightly panicked and confused. I was too young to really know what to do, other than to sit there until he went away. I went on eating, thinking how weird and uncomfortable it was for me.2. I was 21 or so. My best girl friend and I were sitting in the bus depot waiting to catch a bus. I couldnt understand the man, because it was loud and he was mumbling. He came up to us as we were sitting on a bench finishing our Quizznos sandwic hes and was asking if he could pray for me. Partially, I couldnt hear what was going on. Partially, I was very confused and super uncomfortable. My friend stammered a bit, we stood up, and she told him, Uh... uh... thanks. We have to catch a bus. We scurried away.Both times, the people have been weird mumbly types. I supposed if that happened to me now that Im older, I would try to calmly say something like, I appreciate your beliefs, but my blindness isnt something bad for me. It just is what it is. I know you want to pray for me, and I thank you for your kindness, but Im sort of uncomfortable with it.I think its very rude to interrupt people sitting at their table to do this. A more polite option would be to approach someone when theyre not trying to enjoy a meal. I take a little offence to someone trying to include me in a religion I dont agree with, but thats just me. I respect your need to pra y... but leave me out of it!URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166136#p166136 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] An interesting scenario, thoughts?
Re: An interesting scenario, thoughts? As someone who considers myself to be a devoted Christian, Ive had it happen to me as well... and every time I have told them the same thing, and this is something I would say holds true whether you believe in God or not. I usually say no thank you, especially as God obviously made me this way... and somewhere I dont understand there is a good reason for it. That usually satisfies them, and if they still feel the need to do pray for me, then Ill let them do it... because I know in my heart that God knows how I feel and if change isnt in his plan, my blindness wont be going any time soon. But my preference would be not to be prayed over for that kind of thing... and if youre not religious at all then I would understand how uncomfortable that could be. I dont think he shouldve interrupted your meal like that... Im not a fan of Christians who push that hard. I think prayer and sharing the gospel are great things... but one should not interrupt a total stranger to do either one.In conclusion... I would say that it definitely is not something limitted to just South Africa. Im in one of the least religious cities in Canada, and I think Ive had it happen maybe 3 or 4 times that I can remember.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166146#p166146 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] An interesting scenario, thoughts?
Re: An interesting scenario, thoughts? I would agree with assault_freak...with a small caveat. Id let him know that hes welcome to pray for me - but in private, on his own. If he truly wants God to heal me, and wants to intercede on my behalf, he has the right to do so. But by asking to pray directly over me, its as if hes trying to redirect the glory to himself, rather than letting it be directed to God. If I woke up tomorrow and I could see, I would praise God - I wouldnt need to know whether or not somebody had been praying for me. And I know that God is every bit as capable of healing (if He so chooses) in response to a remote prayer as He is in response to a prayer directly over the recipient.Very interesting topic, though. Its actually not something Ive experienced, to the best of my memory.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166160#p166160 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] An interesting scenario, thoughts?
Re: An interesting scenario, thoughts? I will start by confessing that I am an atheist. I used to be Christian.This is very similar to Pascals wager-I dont believe in a god, I am certain that there is no god, but I lose nothing by allowing you to pray for me. if there is no god, or if god is indifferent. I think that its impolite to ask someone unless your religion mandates that you have permission first-Yes, Id like to pray for you, but only if you know it is the kind of impression I get from these people, or perhaps Id like to pray for you, but maybe youd prefer to be blind, or something like that. As for saying yes or no, personally itd depends on what they want from me-if youre going to ask for my blood, or make me participate in some sort of strange ritual or something, no. Ive had this a few times in my life, mostly when I was younger.As for the your purpose argument-what does it hurt to ask? I dont like that argument anyway-religion aside, what its really saying is Youre blind, heres an excuse to make it all better. Maybe your purpose is to be cured, inspiring a new wave of scientific researchers, and in all religions Im aware of, your purpose doesnt happen unless you work at it. If your purpose is blindness, god isnt going to cure you, and I really doubt hes going to smite you or something for asking. Also, I dont think Id want to believe in a god that says: Yeah, by the way, live without eyes, because really theres less sadistic ways to accomplish anything a blind person can (and that includes inspiring others, which is one thing Ive heard before).URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166174#p166174 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] An interesting scenario, thoughts?
Re: An interesting scenario, thoughts? I am a moderate protestant Christian (IE somewhere between the baptists whom I find far too conservative and the United Church whom I find far too liberal), and I do not allow other Christians to pray that my blindness be healed, as I believe God has a plan for me, just the way he created me (Jeremiah 1:5, Jeremiah 29:11, Psalm 139:16). When someone who is not a Christian offers this, I refuse on the grounds that I do not believe in the God they worship, and as I actively believe in and worship another God, prayer from them would make me uncomfortable. Its only ever happened to me 4 or 5 times, and I have never found anyone who was not understanding and respectful of my beliefs. People who ask you this only want to help, and if youre clear about what you believe and why, I have never met anyone of any religion who would pressure you into accepting unwanted healing.URL: http: //forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166182#p166182 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] An interesting scenario, thoughts?
Re: An interesting scenario, thoughts? Agree pretty much 100% with fastfinge. couldnt put it better myself. No point echoing what he said... so Ill just leave it at that.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166197#p166197 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] An interesting scenario, thoughts?
Re: An interesting scenario, thoughts? My one comment to fastfinge and assault_freak: I (personally) wouldnt prohibit someone for praying for me just because I presume to know that God *wants* me to be blind. Does He allow me to be blind? Yes. Could it exist within His will for me to not be blind? Of course it could. Who am I to say for sure? Being comfortable with someone praying, God, if it is within your will that (person) be healed, please heal (person) is fine by me, so long as you arent presuming that it is within Gods will to do so, or suggesting that it *should* be within Gods will to do so. Christ Himself modeled this kind of prayer in Gethsemane, so I dont have a problem letting someone pray as they see fit. But Id definitely be sure that they understand, as you and I do, that our blindness is not intrinsically a bad thing. That kind of thinking comes from the wellness gospel that preaches that Jesus came to make us all happy and healthy, and that there is no pa in or hardship included in His plan for us. Which goes against basically the entirety of Scripture.So Im pretty much agreeing with you guys, but I do want to acknowledge the others right to pray as he or she desires, so long as they do so in submission to Gods will, whatever that may be.Side bar - I love that this conversation includes a variety of beliefs. To those who dont believe as I do, I hope my comments dont seem like Im trying to churchify this topic. Just remember that theyre directed at those who do believe as I do. Feel free to disregard them if you will. But of course, Im more than happy to talk about my beliefs, if you do take an interest :-)URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166203#p166203 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] An interesting scenario, thoughts?
Re: An interesting scenario, thoughts? Joseph Westhouse, it would be interesting to share some thoughts about religiousness, but perhaps on another topic, since this one is more toward the peoples approach regarding blindness.Best regards, Haramir.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166206#p166206 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] An interesting scenario, thoughts?
Re: An interesting scenario, thoughts? Well Id generally agree with Fastfinge in most cases, however there are occasions when Ive had someone offering prayers when there is clearly something wrong, particularly in Britain where religious fundamentalists are far rarer than in some other parts of the world and where approaching someone randomly in public about religion is pretty strange.Even when I was very certain of my belief in god, and actively took the time to talk to people of faith, I would have situations when people would make me feel uncomfortable simply because there is a fairly clear boarder where well intentioned prayer becomes a form of psychological self absorbtion, look at the people who stand on street corners and shout about sin to passing crowds.I cant exactly say what this line is, but usually my emotional sense will tell me if a person is wrong or not, and how politely I respond tends to be based on that impression, since there is a d ifference between someone saying a prayer and being randomly hugged and indeed quite unpleasantly close to a general stranger. These days I would stick to politeness, though I will confess over the past few years since i have become more of an agnostic I have had some occasions when I havent been exactly polite, which i admit is a failing in myself.As to gods plan etc, well I can admit for other people the idea might make sense and I can respect the faith that others have of that idea, but thats not really where I am at the moment. I wouldnt describe myself as an atheist, since I dont actively disbelieve in Gods existance, but I no longer conviction that God actually gives a dam about most humans or is there for people who are not immediately in contact with god anyway. But that is a debate for another time.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166214#p166214 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
