Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation Hey.Interesting idea for a topic, but before that, I have a question.Maybe I didnt hear of that, or maybe live behind the moon or something like that, but super liam 2?I thought this project was canceled about 5 years or so. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258350#p258350 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
2016-04-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : magurp244 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation Some of it also has to do with propriatary technology and patents holding back development i'm sure, Creative sued sound card manufacturer's for example that tried build in 3D audio support into their hardware, basically forcing everyone to use a software solution. Then OpenAL fell through and Microsoft and Creative went closed source, leaving OpenAL Soft to fend for itself. I'd say audio development has largely stagnated ever since, though I've seen some Unity Audio Plugins that seem to boast some impressive features not unlike some of the things diagonite's been working on. Course, those are proprietary and not free. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258310#p258310 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
2016-04-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation I'm going to disagree with just about everyone and say that I don't think the absence of proper 3D Audio is that big a problem. Yes, having it would be great, and I'm waiting for when I can play an audio Open World RPG with the See Munkey and an Immersion®-enabled force-feedback mouse (wait, did I say "when I can play"? That's been on my to create list since I discovered Immersion LTD in like 2007 or 2008), but I think the reason innovation is so sluggish is because there are so few of us, more than anything. Even if the ways to approximate 3D are currently crude and obviously fake, the same can be said of graphics in any video game prior to 1997 (and that's being generous). And yet, I got the impression that comparisons were being made to the likes of Megaman and Metroid, rather than Skyrim and Mass Effect.So, yeah, we're stuck at the "how to get quality, since we can't have quantity" phase. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258306#p258306 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
2016-04-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : yukionozawa via Audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation Hi. Great topic! I am not familiar with 3d audio libraries or audio processing algorithms, so I can't discuss them deeply, but yeah, I want to talk.In bk2, all items except the hidden ones had sounds, indicating what they were located. Also, the elements of the game were quite simple. You could hear the game field only by your years, and you didn't have to use static object info so often for this reason.However, developing bk3, things got much more complicated, and I noticed 2 things.Firstly, as someone in this topic also mentioned, too many simultaneous sound playbacks makes players confuse, and also destroys the game's atmosphere. Imagine the game world with lots of beeps, or with loud/clipping wave of audio made by many item sounds playing at once. I'm sure you have had such experiences, and you can get what I mean.Secondly, when I want to add extra information that are difficult to indicate by audio, object info is a very good solution. For example, I want to tell players which direction a surveillance camera is facing. When attempting to do this using sounds, I must use two sounds depending on which direction the object is facing, or which direction it turned to. This also means that players have to memorize the sounds.For these 2 reasons, I designed the game so that players would need to depend on the object info a lot. I get Ray's friend's thought, but I didn't came up with any better ideas other than using a menu-style information notification structure. I completely agree that audio games haven't progressed in these days. Lots of side scrollers, shooters, and so on. I hope that new technology or algorisms will be invented, and of course, I want to participate in such activities or experiments. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258294#p258294 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
2016-04-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : yukionozawa via Audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation Hi. Great topic! I don't familiar with 3d audio libraries or audio processing algorithms, so I can't discuss them deeply, but yeah, I want to talk.In bk2, all items except the hidden ones had sounds, indicating what they were located. Also, the elements of the game were quite simple. You could hear the game field only by your years, and you didn't have to use static object info so often for this reason.However, developing bk3, things got much more complicated, and I noticed 2 things.Firstly, as someone in this topic also mentioned, too many simultaneous sound playbacks makes players confuse, and also destroys the game's atmosphere. Imagine the game world with lots of beeps, or with loud/clipping wave of audio made by many item sounds playing at once. I'm sure you have had such experiences, and you can get what I mean.Secondly, when I want to add extra information that are difficult to indicate by audio, object info is a very g ood solution. For example, I want to tell players which direction a surveillance camera is facing. When attempting to do this using sounds, I must use two sounds depending on which direction the object is facing, or which direction it turned to. This also means that players have to memorize the sounds.For these 2 reasons, I designed the game so that players would need to depend on the object info a lot. I get Ray's friend's thought, but I didn't came up with any better ideas other than using a menu-style information notification structure. I completely agree that audio games haven't progressed in these days. Lots of side scrollers, shooters, and so on. I hope that new technology or algorisms will be invented, and of course, I want to participate in such activities or experiments. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258294#p258294 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
2016-04-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Guitarman via Audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation Hi Aaron.Yes I agree those games were awesome. I wonder why that part of the site got shut down? It would be cool to have 3d audio in games but without using an apple device or google I don't think it's possible. Windows just doesn't have the ability. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258246#p258246 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation I'm looking forward to the games that Oriol will be releasing. One thing I really miss are the experimental audiogames as some of them did try to innovate a bit. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258241#p258241 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
2016-04-25
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Guitarman via Audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation Hi.This is very interesting. I actually wasn't going to look at this topic because I've never played the bk games. I would love too because I've heard great things about them.I don't know how game developers would represent objects and things on a game board. One idea I had is too write jaws script or nvda add-on to alert you to things near you or speak a warning when you get near a pit or trap. Then again something like this maybe more trouble than it's worth. Another idea is to play a sound that goes up or down in pitch depending on if you get to a platform or a pit then as the sound plays there is a text warning as well. This is a very complex prblem which probably won't be solved easily. There was a forum member camlorn who used to be on here he probably would have some good ideas.@Raygrote, that was a very good post you get a thumbs up! I will continue to think of things to make platformers more interesting.@Cae, I really enjoy your games. I still have them they still are fun to play. I don't really worry about mechanics when I'm playing if it's a good game if I have fun playing it, it doesn't matter to me. I haven't played swamp platfrmer in a while but it gets my heart pumping. I think you should continue developing games you have great talent. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258167#p258167 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
2016-04-25
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation I think something like the sonifier, in the sense of scanning from left to right and playing sounds for what's there, isn't a bad method to try. In my entry for Oriol Gomez's contest at the start of the month, I have a section that picks which x position to scan based on the frame (since the ticker I'm using already keeps track of how many frames have passed), then goes from the top of the map to the bottom, updating anything that needs updating. This is a pretty crude method for dynamic map elements, because those really should be objects instead of tiles, but there's no reason it couldn't be used to show the overall design of the map as well.I think the reason this sounds easier than it should is because audio games have such low resolution in general. Since most games are tile-based, and since we're terrible at pixel-precision, there's almost never anything on a scale smaller than a character-sized tile. That simplifies sonifying ov erhead immensely, at the cost of detail.I could try and add this to that game, if anyone wants. I might do that anyway, just to see if it helps. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258158#p258158 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
2016-04-25
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : magurp244 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation Audio platforming mechanics are indeed quite challenging to implement. Going with Reverb and 3D positioning would help, yes, but only to a degree. For example it won't help if you have stacked platform's with one above the other, and it may not tell you whether the pit your in front of is safe or filled with deadly spikes. I should really spend some time getting a better grasp of reverb in general, which diagonite and others seem to have more experience with. I wouldn't considering having a look cursor unusual though, even by sighted standards. There are a number of games for example where players are in incredibly dark environments and need to use limited light sources or cones of light to slow down and assess the environment, having an audio focus equivalent is no different.Another approach i've experimented with is Peter Meijers Image to Sound sonifying techniques, which in practice gives somewhat mixed results. Replicating the sonifier is very resour ce intensive and has a chronically low resolution, interpreting it also takes some amount of training to intuitively understand what the resulting sounds are trying to convey. I think perhaps, using 3D positional audio and giving the player the ability to take a snapshot of the screen with a Sonifier, combined with a look cursor could help give some overlapping perceptual coverage, creating a better experience by supplying users with more tools with which to assess their environment. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258131#p258131 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
2016-04-25
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : pitermach via Audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation Hi,This was a very good post.Part of the problem is the current state of sound libraries (the software kind that plays sound like bass/fmod). Finally there's something going on in that department thanks to libaudioverse, though thanks to the prevalence of BGT who's support for external libraries is laughable and the fact it's currently Windows only, I can't think of anyone using it in a project, or at least I haven't heard about it.Having a library that can do HRTF as well as advanced reverb would solve part of the problem as you would be able to tell when something is above or below, or even how far a drop is thanks to the sound of your steps bouncing off platforms. Then you wouldn't have to look at a static object list as often but you couldn't completely get rid of it.Getting rid of cameras and object lists completely is a bad idea, which something like monkey business shows pretty well as some of the levels in t hat game are quite hard to navigate as a result. Having sounds for almost everything can also get overwelming fast, which is why I haven't really had a lot of luck playing through the quake single player with AQ, or why the developer of Sol is currently trying to find alternative ways to show the complex platforming setups in that game. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258112#p258112 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation I'm not really sure what to think I can't think of anything different, but I've also got other places where things could be improved.I'd like to see a fighting game with more combos -- I know that battle zone 2's concept demo has sort of started with something a bit like it.Another problem is how to represent flight. TDV and such are OK but some parts are just long bits where all you hear is an engine. There's realism but there's also fun. Don't quote me on this as I can't see, but I think in a mainstream flying game, you can see the environment going past and you see different landscapes.Also what about puzzle games like tetris or bejouled? I can't think of a way to represent all of the board so you can tellif you can do multiple matches and make a whole ton of things explode. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258111#p258111 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
2016-04-25
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation A reply, In which cae_jones pretentiously plugs his terrible projects yet againRaygrote wrote:My friend, and I suspect many others who don't like the game, was insistent that the game needs more audible cues. While having better audible height indicators would be awesome, I fail to see how that would negate the need for using cameras to look around.The first Sonic The Hedgehog game had camera panning. It turned out not to be as useful as expected and got removed in favor of crouching and the spin dash, but the concept remained in use in Disney's 16bit platformers.(But let's be fair; Sonic is quite possibly the worse game to bog down with camera panning. I'm looking at you, Sonic Adventure. You took a game based around running really fast... and made me take the camera on a cinematic tour of a rocky oasis? One wonders if perhaps you weren't just trying to show off your shi ny new 3D environments.)Speaking of showing off... the Swamp Platformer, dangit. It does pretty much exactly what we're talking about. The camera controls are more mainstream; everything makes sound; there is no object viewer. Oh, and it's not very popular. I wonder if these things are connected somehow, or if it would have turned out better had someone else done it?I've gone back and forth on that game in development hell which I shall not name in the hopes that this will protect it from the wrath of Fate, and ultimately settled on something more or less like BK3. Got any ideas on how to do better? Because I been trying. That's like most of what I've been doing since I got here. There are, what, 4 or 5 full 2D platformers, 7 if we count two-level demos like Mota / Montezuma's Revenge / Audio Sonic. And there would be more if I was n't so bloody useless.A one-handed controller and a full-screen[1] tactile display would do wonders, but it isn't so much an audio game at that point, is it?If you want everything to make sound, then you can't have much on screen at once, or you need to do something extremely clever that I haven't thought of in my thousands of hours of time not coding. I'm not sure I've come up with anything new since this blogpost.[1] Actually, if we're talking something more like braille with moving dots, we probably want to start with widescreen. But, eh, tablets and smartphones kinda rendered my tenuous grasp on aspect ratios obsolete. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258079#p258079 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
2016-04-25
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation A reply, In which cae_jones pretentiously plugs his terrible projects yet againRaygrote wrote:My friend, and I suspect many others who don't like the game, was insistent that the game needs more audible cues. While having better audible height indicators would be awesome, I fail to see how that would negate the need for using cameras to look around.The first Sonic The Hedgehog game had camera panning. It turned out not to be as useful as expected and got removed in favor of crouching and the spin dash, but the concept remained in use in Disney's 16bit platformers.(But let's be fair; Sonic is quite possibly the worse game to bog down with camera panning. I'm looking at you, Sonic Adventure. You took a game based around running really fast... and made me take the camera on a cinematic tour of a rocky oasis? One wonders if perhaps you weren't just trying to show off your shi ny new 3D environments.)Speaking of showing off... the Swamp Platformer, dangit. It does pretty much exactly what we're talking about. The camera controls are more mainstream; everything makes sound; there is no object viewer. Oh, and it's not very popular. I wonder if these things are connected somehow, or if it would have turned out better had someone else done it?Hopefully Oriol doesn't have a problem with me posting this recording of my contest entry. (Note: I had only finished one level during the contest.) Why do I think it's relevant enough to post? Because of the part where I tried to avoid adding an object viewer or making it easy to pause and look around, but wound up adding both because holycrap you guys are going to hate the second level and I left it in anyway.I've gone back and forth on that game in development hell which I shall not name in the hopes that this will protect it from the wrath of Fate, and ultimately settled on something more or less like BK3. Got any ideas on how to do better? Because I been trying. That's like most of what I've been doing since I got here. There are, what, 4 or 5 full 2D platformers, 7 if we count two-level demos like Mota / Montezuma's Revenge / Audio Sonic. And there would be more if I wasn't so bloody useless.A one-handed controller and a full-screen[1] tactile display would do wonders, but it isn't so much an audio game at that point, is it?If you want everything to make sound, then you can't have much on screen at once, or you need to do something extremely clever that I haven't thought of in my thousands of hours of time not coding. I'm not sure I've come up with anything new since this blogpost.[1] Actually, if we're talking something more like braille with moving dots, we probably want to start with widescreen. But, eh, tablets and smartphones kinda rendered my tenuous grasp on aspect ratios obsolete. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258079#p258079 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation having read your post, I do get ithowever for me personally I've never had any issue with the game, I've always done run-N-gun style, and I can keep up with everything on screen so it just becomes a fight with reflexes, hell my first time playing I ran through the whole of stage 25 in one sitting, unsure how long it was but it was the most fun I'd ever had in any audio game and only died like twice, and that was only in the gauntlet that is 25-3the fact that you actually have to stop and look at what's going on is what makes this game different from the rest of them, it's also what kept me hooked on it for as long as it did since you actually have to think to finish parts of itat least until you're overpowered and everything just bounces off you URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258066#p258066 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation
Re: BK3, the chesboard of audio game innovation having read your post, I do get ithowever for me personally I've never had any issue with the game, I've always done run-N-gun style, and I can keep up with everything on screen so it just becomes a fight with reflexes, hell my first time playing I ran through the whole of stage 25 in one sitting, unsure how long it was but it was the most fun I'd ever had in any audio gamethe fact that you actually have to stop and look at what's going on is what makes this game different from the rest of them, it's also what kept me hooked on it for as long as it did since you actually have to think to finish parts of itat least until you're overpowered and everything just bounces off you URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=258066#p258066 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
