Re: reflections from a former developer
Re: reflections from a former developer @50, I did say that, and my stance on that definitely hasn't changed. But that doesn't mean we should eliminate audio games. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/590113/#p590113 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Eh. I play Genesis games, otherwise it's all audio games... but not many, mostly just Nyanchan, Aprone, and VGStorm. And also Jeqocon, because somebody has to.There's also a Marvel Superheroes / X-Men Children of the Atom / The Punisher arcade cabinet at my parents' house, so sometimes I play that when I'm there. Would play DBZ games and PS1 Capcom games if I had access to them.I'd play Kingdom Hearts were it the least bit accessible. Probably some Marvel games. Since I cannot, there's nothing worth the trouble. Or maybe I need to pay more attention to Kenshir's videos? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/590007/#p590007 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : black_mana via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer i agree with what Nocturnus said on post 43 here, to be fair i can't rremember the last time i played an audiogame in the past year and this one., i think the last game i ever played was manamon 2 when it came out, but i simply droped it afterwords, i guess i wasn't interested of it being the same all over again, but i do still play main stream games whenever i have a chanse.i guess i already menssioned this before, that i'm ready to help out in sound design, it's a part of me, a hobby that i love doing most, and i've bin geting more beter and beter at it to produce hie quality sound effects, i don't do this for the sake of money but more of a something i ennjoye doing in my free time to then anything else. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589972/#p589972 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Dark Eagle via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer @49:It sounds to me like you told me once.We do need to meet the sighted players and developers half way, we can't expect things to change otherwise. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589954/#p589954 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
Re: reflections from a former developer I don't think we should ever lose audiogames -- nor do I think we ever will. They may not be fully inclusive yet, and maybe they never will be, purely because creating graphics that your modern gamer would think are "really good" is extremely difficult for us (not to mention graphics APIs are hard to use sometimes). Plus, I think audiogames give us an expressive and creative outlet that bring challenges to the sighted; the sighted can learn how to play our games while we learn to play theirs. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589910/#p589910 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Dark Eagle via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer When it comes to the audio panning, I have two examples from the snes era.First is U.N squadron. during the boss fight, it is the most clear, as you move left and right, the sound of the boss also shifts.I can only wonder what can be if there were only certain changes within the game, perhaps we could have played this, even in the snes era!Second example is Darius Force, or Super Nova as it came to be known as in the US.This one also had the same audio, only in horizontal since the game itself is horizontal shooter.Again, with just few more modification, I suspect that I could have played this game without the use of cheats. (Besides, it has a killer soundtrack as well.)I have the example of voiced menus from ps2 era, where I was surprised to find that budokai tenkaichi 3 have the characters talk out about the menus and the options present within the game. While the sighted people probably found it annoying and turned it off, it was present there, and I took advantage of it. (Before leaving the game dew to the unreasonable thrashing I received. dragon ball z games from this time go two ways: you win, or you get thrashed.)So, it has been possible with the audio at least from the early 90's, and talking menus are here, though rather rare, since 2007 or 9. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589907/#p589907 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : wing of eternity via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer well let me first say that when I think that we can have play stations with accessible screen reader suport, I am just thinking that this is what we wanted all along, right?We won't nedd audiogames just for a simple reason and thhat is the fact that we will hav access to a games for the sighted that from now will be playable. In this regard audiogames will die out, or may be we will just learn to make things along with the sighted to help with accessibility ishus. It will take sometime however till we feat in to the scene, but I hope we can adapt. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589896/#p589896 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer I am here at this moment entirely because my computer did it's obligatory "crash without warning when you're working on something and haven't saved in a few minutes" for this ... week? Weekend? It's kinda frequent. So maybe this isn't the best time to reply.. But I'm kinda lost.You know, back in the 80s and before, there were hardly any tools for game development, and people had to do everything in assembly, or C at best, including a sound engine for whatever specific hardware they were working with. Apparently the NES gets a lot of mileage out of 1bit audio. But then you mess up and import your data in bytes, with the bits reversed, screwing up the sound quality, but no one notices because it's the NES, and it gets released like that.It makes our utter helplessness seem all the more pathetic. Sure, we don't have the tools they use to make today's games. But crap, surely we can do better with what we already have, considering that, in terms of complexity and gameplay, we're still pathetic by retro standards.It feels like that gulf is so ridiculously vast that no amount of "If everyone just..." seems capable of reducing it in the slightest.Come to think of it, why am I even here? To naval gaze about game development?... You know what? That's a good point. I'ma see how much code I lost when my computer seized. When's the last time I compulsively hit ctrl s? LET's FIND OUT![edit]Right before the crash, apparently. Wow. Anyway, I wonder if we should have just created or commandeered a crypto currency in the past decade or so, even if it was primarily restricted to this community. So long as it could accurately function as currency (e.g. It has a finite amount and is not going to randomly inflate or deflate because someone sat around doing missions 24/7), it could have gotten a functioning e-economy going. I'm not sure why I thought this was a good idea, but I keep coming back to it so it's probably me thinking poorly right now. [/edit] URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589784/#p589784 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Dark Eagle via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer What Nocturnus has said in post 43, actually caused me to examine myself how much audiogaming I do.ever since I arrived on this site three years ago, I have tried several text based browser games, in which I only stayed with two, and ever since late 2019, only one.I have played one RPG, that being manamon, and after getting frustrated at its lasers and security guards, didn't finished it.I have played one monster game, that being breed memorial, a game which I still play, even though I wish I could automate some tasks in it.In short, I didn't end up playing many audiogames as I thought when I came here, while my mainstream gaming remained the same, whether it be playing classic games of the 90's on a emulator, or buying the mortal kombat series or the latest tekken, or BlazBlue... or the most recently King of Fighters, since it was selling at a quite cheep price here. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589786/#p589786 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer I am here at this moment entirely because my computer did it's obligatory "crash without warning when you're working on something and haven't saved in a few minutes" for this ... week? Weekend? It's kinda frequent. So maybe this isn't the best time to reply.. But I'm kinda lost.You know, back in the 80s and before, there were hardly any tools for game development, and people had to do everything in assembly, or C at best, including a sound engine for whatever specific hardware they were working with. Apparently the NES gets a lot of mileage out of 1bit audio. But then you mess up and import your data in bytes, with the bits reversed, screwing up the sound quality, but no one notices because it's the NES, and it gets released like that.It makes our utter helplessness seem all the more pathetic. Sure, we don't have the tools they use to make today's games. But crap, surely we can do better with what we already have, considering that, in terms of complexity and gameplay, we're still pathetic by retro standards.It feels like that gulf is so ridiculously vast that no amount of "If everyone just..." seems capable of reducing it in the slightest.Come to think of it, why am I even here? To naval gaze about game development?... You know what? That's a good point. I'ma see how much code I lost when my computer seized. When's the last time I compulsively hit ctrl s? LET's FIND OUT! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589784/#p589784 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer @NocturnusAgreed, pretty much what I'm getting at as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589767/#p589767 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Nocturnus via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer @nolan, I was atempting to address your question as much as all your question encompasses. You are thinking about it from a developer's standpoint. I'm no dev, but something Dardar said up in post 29 or there abouts struck home, and that is that sometimes devs seem to lose touch with what it means to be a gamer. I feel sometimes I come away with the same issue as it pertains to music; being a musician who enjoys something from every genre, I sometimes wonder if I have what it takes to deliver music to the masses or, if as someone who spends far too much time playing music I'm not spending enough time listening to things that are sticking.and so I asked the questions I did above concerning games. I'm no developer, so I can't answer those questions from a developer standpoint. Do blind and VI people enjoy audiogames because it gives them something to do, or do they enjoy them in and of themselves? I keep thinking it's more of the former than the latter, because we have enough gamers here complaining about how devs are just piggybacking off of already established ideas, and devs seem to get mad because gamers are not appreciating the work anymore. If it really were more of the latter I don't think clones would sincerely be an issue worth discussing. Either way, I'm just the guy in the middle as I see it... I came here to try and find accessible games about 10 years ago, and while I found a few I stuck with, most everything else I tossed aside in favor of mainstream gaming. I stuck around here because I saw that I could be of assistance in many areas for this community, but the amount of gaming I've been doing as a result of being here? Almost nonexistent. I'm speaking for myself, obviously on this particular matter, and I realize that my personal view is not the end all/be all of the community or audiogamers as a whole.But I feel I have seen enough reactions when things come out nowadays to make a few points, the most important of which is simply that something has to change... Something's gotta give. If that means that you freelance yourself to already established projects so that both blind and sighted players can enjoy a game? I think that's what you should do. If it means you have to pay to get a sighted someone to help you establish graphics to make the game accessible to sighted people? That's what you should do. Again, I don't have all the answers, but have you ever considered that by asking a sighted person to step down to the level of an audiogamer, what you are in fact doing is depriving them of accessibility? It seems weird that I should be flipping the idea around after all this time, but I can't help wonder if this is the real issue, assuming we understood it all along when in fact instead of us climbing up with the help of others we're asking them to step down to us and stay where we feel comfortable.If we want accessibility for all, I believe we really have to prove that we want accessibility for all, and that includes sighted people. It strikes us as absolutely hilarious that sighted people can barely do simple things in the midle of the night, such as walking to their bathroom, in their own house, without turning on lights. Why? Because we're used to doing it blind; no lights required. Take the light away from the sighted and you're taking away their accessibility... I have to encourage sighted people to turn on lights when they step into my house, but I can clearly "see" (Yes, I am deliberately using that word see,) that they are at a huge disadvantage as soon as they walk through my door, particularly at night! Do we take them into consideration? No, because we believe that as the ones with the disability we're not playing on a fair, equall playing field.But to expect them to know how to use their ears as well as their eyes to get around? To expect them to make use of all of their senses when they're used to simply depending on the strongest? Just to game? In 2020? For our convenience? When we are a minority? Am I the only one that sees the absurdity?And it's not just here... I see it everywhere! If a sighted person needs to use my phone, be it Android or iOS, I have to turn off the screen reader. If they successfully want to use my TV, I have to turn off the screen reader. More often than not they're not convinced that turning off the screen reader will make a difference, since in particular when you're using JAWS, the way things look or behave on a computer can be drastically altered by its simply being active! Unless they're accessibility experts themselves, or they spend a lot of time around blind people, and know quite a bit about computers already, screen readers just hampers them!We can argue back and forth about whether or not sighted people can do more for us... I'm s
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Nocturnus via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer @nolan, I was atempting to address your question as much as all your question encompasses. You are thinking about it from a developer's standpoint. I'm no dev, but something Dardar said up in post 29 or there abouts struck home, and that is that sometimes devs seem to lose touch with what it means to be a gamer. I feel sometimes I come away with the same issue as it pertains to music; being a musician who enjoys something from every genre, I sometimes wonder if I have what it takes to deliver music to the masses or, if as someone who spends far too much time playing music I'm not spending enough time listening to things that are sticking.and so I asked the questions I did above concerning games. I'm no developer, so I can't answer those questions from a developer standpoint. Do blind and VI people enjoy audiogames because it gives them something to do, or do they enjoy them in and of themselves? I keep thinking it's more of the former than the latter, because we have enough gamers here complaining about how devs are just piggybacking off of already established ideas, and devs seem to get mad because gamers are not appreciating the work anymore. If it really were more of the latter I don't think clones would sincerely be an issue worth discussing. Either way, I'm just the guy in the middle as I see it... I came here to try and find accessible games about 10 years ago, and while I found a few I stuck with, most everything else I tossed aside in favor of mainstream gaming. I stuck around here because I saw that I could be of assistance in many areas for this community, but the amount of gaming I've been doing as a result of being here? Almost nonexistent. I'm speaking for myself, obviously on this particular matter, and I realize that my personal view is not the end all/be all of the community or audiogamers as a whole.But I feel I have seen enough reactions when things come out nowadays to make a few points, the most important of which is simply that something has to change... Something's gotta give. If that means that you freelance yourself to already established projects so that both blind and sighted players can enjoy a game? I think that's what you should do. If it means you have to pay to get a sighted someone to help you establish graphics to make the game accessible to sighted people? That's what you should do. Again, I don't have all the answers, but have you ever considered that by asking a sighted person to step down to the level of an audiogamer, what you are in fact doing is depriving them of accessibility? It seems weird that I should be flipping the idea around after all this time, but I can't help wonder if this is the real issue, assuming we understood it all along when in fact instead of us climbing up with the help of others we're asking them to step down to us and stay where we fel comfortable.If we want accessibilityh for all, I believe we really have to prove that we want accessibility for all, and that includes sighted people. It strikes us as absolutely hilarious that sighted people can barely do simple things in the midle of the night, such as walking to their bathroom, in their own house, without turning on lights. Why? Because we're used to doing it blind; no lights required. Take the light away from the sighted and you're taking away their accessibility... I have to encourage sighted people to turn on lights when they step into my house, but I can clearly "see" (Yes, I am deliberately using that word see,) that they are at a huge disadvantage as soon as they walk through my door, particularly at night! Do we take them into consideration? No, because we believe that as the ones with the disability we're not playing on a fair, equall playing field.But to expect them to know how to use their ears as well as their eyes to get around? To expect them to make use of all of their senses when they're used to simply depending on the strongest? Just to game? In 2020? For our convenience? When we are a minority? Am I the only one that sees the absurdity?And it's not just here... I see it everywhere! If a sighted person needs to use my phone, be it Android or iOS, I have to turn off the screen reader. If they successfully want to use my TV, I have to turn off the screen reader. More often than not they're not convinced that turning off the screen reader will make a difference, since in particular when you're using JAWS, the way things look or behave on a computer can be drastically altered by its simply being active! Unless they're accessibility experts themselves, or they spend a lot of time around blind people, and know quite a bit about computers already, screen readers just hampers them!We can argue back and forth about whether or not sighted people can do more for us... I'm s
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Dark Eagle via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer As I was reading the post of Nocturnus, a dramatic anime style music started to play in my head. Reading your posts for a while, I do think you can write some really inspiring speeches.@nolan:I understand that you probably don't feel like involving yourself in the community much these days, (At least that is what I've got from reading your post which implies something like this, apologies if I am wrong,)But you know what? upcoming developers like myself, we need people like you. Ethin, camlorn, and you, you guys have a lot of knowledge, which usually we can't get by just searching for the tutorials online.I do like if you guys would share your knowledge, which is better than reading theoretical books, since you guys not only have the knowledge, you have the practical experience of it as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589736/#p589736 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-13
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer @NocturnusYou expressed it very well, I've thought similar things for a while now.I will say though that I think aiming for mainstream quality needs to come in waves, and that expectations should be realistic if it's coming from our end rather than that of the larger companies.For instance, rather than trying for triple A caliber, lets just try for Indi mainstream level quality. And before we start courting fully sighted people, lets work on our support for low vision and hard of hearing folks as well as newbie gamers first.Personally, I don't think the big change is going to come from us, accepting the occasional person from our community helping to bring about change in the wider market or small indi studio dipping their toes into audio gaming. We just don't have the people, funds, experience. That doesn't mean we should give up on trying to improve those things though, because I still think that the games built for disabled players from the ground up idea isn't fully realized, and even within that we still have the possibility for upwards improvement within the VI gaming sector.TL/DR: Lets do what we do now, but better and friendlier for more types of players. In the mean time, we can also chip away at the big studios so that eventually we may not even need games for disabled people.I think a realistic approach where we aren't burning bridges before crossing, but we also aren't staying stagnant and being content with the status quo is ideal. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589568/#p589568 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-13
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer @NocturnusYou expressed it very well, I've thought similar things for a while now.I will say though that I think aiming for mainstream quality needs to come in waves, and that expectations should be realistic if it's coming from our end rather than that of the larger companies.For instance, rather than trying for triple A caliber, lets just try for Indi mainstream level quality. And before we start courting fully sighted people, lets work on our support for low vision and hard of hearing folks as well as newbie gamers first.Personally, I don't think the big change is going to come from us, accepting the occasional person from our community helping to bring about change in the wider market. We just don't have the people, funds, experience. That doesn't mean we should give up on trying to improve those things though, because I still think that the games built for disabled players from the ground up idea isn't fully realized, and even within that we still have the possibility for upwards improvement within the VI gaming sector.TL/DR: Lets do what we do now, but better and friendlier for more types of players. In the mean time, we can also chip away at the big studios so that eventually we may not even need games for disabled people.I think a realistic approach where we aren't burning bridges before crossing, but we also aren't staying stagnant and being content with the status quo is ideal. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589568/#p589568 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
Re: reflections from a former developer @39 Not sure if that is in response to me, or to someone else. What I'm talking about is the creative side of what audio gaming is, not the player side.Put another way, I'd happily create a more broadly accessible game if I could. I only work with audio because I can't, to the best of my knowledge, work with graphics. And I'd like to see blind folks involved with gaming as more than just players, or as consultants helping sighted developers create experiences for them. Both are important, but they aren't the full story. If audio gaming is a dead end, where is the place of the blind developer in whatever comes next? I hope there is one, because I have several game ideas waiting for me to create the tools to make the games, and I'd hate to not have an outlet for those. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589563/#p589563 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-13
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Nocturnus via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer No no... There are enough of us here that do have a passion for gaming that we shouldn't just toss it out the window. The trick is how to actually turn that passion into games that are not only (to use this term halfheartedly) "Blind games." There in, I believe, lies the real issue, because we're looking at it from the perspective of blind developers not being able to have accessible games that are equall to those enjoyed by mainstream, majorly sighted communities. Instead of developing games for ourselves, we need to figure out how to develop games as a general rule of thumb!I'm not saying I have all the solutions, but I don't believe where we stand at present and or anything we've seen come before is the way forward. Either we let go of the audiogame and leave it behind as the "blind game" it currently is, or we find a way to make it enticing to the mainstream community so that they too would find it worth engaging in. this is, I believe, currently, the real problem, a problem of inclusivity where everyone feels they can participate without the awkwardness of saying I'm doing less when I could be doing more. I think a few questions we could ask ourselves to begin with might include, are audiogames enjoyable to us because they give us something to do, or are they enjoyable as they are in and of themselves? If the former, how is that any different from picking up a mainstream game you can't really play just to hear the sounds for a bit of mindless fun, or watching a youtube video of someone else playing it? If the latter, why do they not appeal to a greater audience, and what might we do to make that change for the better?IN the end, what I feel is that I see three groups of gamers within this community. One is happily caged away with no desire for change; bring on the old and just make it a little different from time to time with a new sound or set of sounds, new words, new screen reader/tts inclusive mechanics bla bla bla... I have a new set of scripts for you all and so lets make a meal out of it! Another is looking out of the cage as if expecting acessibility should drop out of the sky yesterday and we should all just be able to have it. The third, and this is the minority, is going out and engaging in talks with developers, embracing new ideas that all seem like small, little baby steps toward a hopefully brighter tomorrow, ranging from possible voice guided menus to descriptive videos/trailors for upcoming games. This, in my humble opinion, is the group of people getting the most done as it pertains to gaming as a whole, not just gaming with one group in mind who have all been content to just rally around what should be a genre.And the sad thing is that you get people from the first two groups bashing these ideas. this is too little too late! It's not enough! They could do better! Are you telling us this company can't invest more money in us? What are they doing with it that is more important! They dont' really want us! There's no market for blind gamers in a sighted world! Nay and nay all the way; blind gamers are for blind gamers and that's the end of it! Lets create our coalition of sad sorry gamers and get on with our lives! If we can't have accessible games because big companies won't make them, we'll just make our own, even if there's no money pouring in from anywhere to actually do that?It's not working. There comes a point in time where we all just need to accept that if we really want something superior, we need the help to get it done. It's not a question of what kind of brain power/smarts/intelligence we all have here collectively. It's a matter of how much we're willing to sacrifice our comfort zones to step out into the unknown, shake the hands of a group of well established developers at gaming conventions and say, "Hey, how are ya! Nice to meet ya! I know I only represent a small minority among minorities in this world, but if you could briefly lend me an ear? Let me tell you a bit about myself... I love to game. I've had some success with some games, but most of them are nowhere near the kind of success your general average everyday gamer gets to enjoy. When next you consider gamers and what they're looking for, could you at least pitch me and my concerns to the higher ups assuming you're not the final say in this matter? Thank you; best of wishes to you and your games."These, are the kinds of people making headlines. These, are the people who want to make a change! These, are the people leaving the cage! One baby step at a time! But when you look at them collectively, those are huge jumps forward in comparison to people who never dare to venture out of the cage at all! You can claim it's just a fluke! You can say it's mindless fun! You can tr
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-13
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Nocturnus via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer No no... There are enough of us here that do have a passion for gaming that we shouldn't just toss it out the window. The trick is how to actually turn that passion into games that are not only (to use this term halfheartedly) "Blind games." There in, I believe, lies the real issue, because we're looking at it from the perspective of blind developers not being able to have accessible games that are equall to those enjoyed by mainstream, majorly sighted communities. Instead of developing games for ourselves, we need to figure out how to develop games as a general rule of thumb!I'm not saying I have all the solutions, but I don't believe where we stand at present and or anything we've seen come before is the way forward. Either we let go of the audiogame and leave it behind as the "blind game" it currently is, or we find a way to make it enticing to the mainstream community so that they too would find it worth engaging in. this is, I believe, currently, the real problem, a problem of inclusivity where everyone feels they can participate without the awkwardness of saying I'm doing less when I could be doing more. I think a few questions we could ask ourselves to begin with might include, are audiogames enjoyable to us because they give us something to do, or are they enjoyable as they are in and of themselves? If the former, how is that any different from picking up a mainstream game you can't really play just to hear the sounds for a bit of mindless fun, or watching a youtube video of someone else playing it? If the latter, why do they not appeal to a greater audience, and what might we do to make that change for the better?IN the end, what I feel is that I see three groups of gamers within this community. One is happily caged away with no desire for change; bring on the old and just make it a little different from time to time with a new sound or set of sounds, new words, new screen reader/tts inclusive mechanics bla bla bla... I have a new set of scripts for you all and so lets make a meal out of it! Another is looking out of the cage as if expecting acessibility should drop out of the sky yesterday and we should all just be able to have it. The third, and this is the minority, is going out and engaging in talks with developers, embracing new ideas that all seem like small, little baby steps toward a hopefully brighter tomorrow, ranging from possible voice guided menus to descriptive videos/trailors for upcoming games. This, in my humble opinion, is the group of people getting the most done as it pertains to gaming as a wwhole, not just gaming with one group in mind.And the sad thing is that you get people from the first two groups bashing these ideas. this is too little too late! It's not enough! They could do better! Are you telling us this company can't invest more money in us? What are they doing with it that is more important! They dont' really want us! There's no market for blind gamers in a sighted world! Nay and nay all the way; blind gamers are for blind gamers and that's the end of it! Lets create our coalition of sad sorry gamers and get on with our lives! If we can't have accessible games because big companies won't make them, we'll just make our own, even if there's no money pouring in from anywhere to actually do that?It's not working. There comes a point in time where we all just need to accept that if we really want something superior, we need the help to get it done. It's not a question of what kind of brain power/smarts/intelligence we all have here collectively. It's a matter of how much we're willing to sacrifice our comfort zones to step out into the unknown, shake the hands of a group of well established developers at gaming conventions and say, "Hey, how are ya! Nice to meet ya! I know I only represent a small minority among minorities in this world, but if you could briefly lend me an ear? Let me tell you a bit about myself... I love to game. I've had some success with some games, but most of them are nowhere near the kind of success your general average everyday gamer gets to enjoy. When next you consider gamers and what they're looking for, could you at least pitch me and my concerns to the higher ups assuming you're not the final say in this matter? Thank you; best of wishes to you and your games."These, are the kinds of people making headlines. These, are the people who want to make a change! These, are the people leaving the cage! One baby step at a time! But when you look at them collectively, those are huge jumps forward in comparison to people who never dare to venture out of the cage at all! You can claim it's just a fluke! You can say it's mindless fun! You can try and throw a wet blanket over it all by saying we really can'
Re: reflections from a former developer
Re: reflections from a former developer I've scaled back my participation here somewhat significantly because, quite honestly, I want less of this community's kind of energy in my life. That said, I do still selectively skim, and I'm glad I read this thread, because it does speak to lots of what I think about. If I may, I have some thoughts I'd like to offer.Re: collaboration. Two things. First, for some of us, money is an issue. I'm not saying that good games can't be free. But it's hard to innovate when you're very young. When you're older, you generally come to realize that you can't give that kind of energy away for free--not if you want to pay rent and eat, at least.I don't expect to get rich on audio gaming, but I'm rolling out pieces to hopefully make it sustainable in as far as I make enough to not desperately take every contract that crosses my radar because I have to. But that raises the bar significantly for collaboration. And it isn't just about drafting a written agreement that someone gets X% and someone else Y. You need a business structure, or many of the app stores just won't deal with you. That means, at bare minimum, an LLC. And then there are the tax implications of that. I don't, for instance, know whether I could just form a passthrough LLC, take and split app store fees, hire the occasional independent contractor for things we couldn't do, etc. and understand what my personal tax burden will be. And that's before even addressing whether such an arrangement would work internationally, or whether it only applies to US citizens. In short, money is a limiting factor not only for games themselves, but also for whether or not collaboration is possible on the scale that would make an audio game even minimally profitable. And if I'm going through all of that with someone, they'd better be adult enough to stick it out and not drop the ball halfway through because their parents needed them or school became a bit too much. While those things are important, what's also important is being responsible enough to determine in advance whether or not those things might become a blocking problem.Second, it isn't enough to pick a couple developers, a sound designer or two, and create a game. A lot more goes into a good game, and much of it isn't even necessarily visible. For instance, scope. You need a good sense of what your game is and isn't before you start writing more than prototype code. You need to know when that game is done. And, when it is done, you need to stick with that. If you spend six months crafting your nicely-balanced space shooter, then one weekend a developer goes rogue and decides missiles would be a good addition, you've probably ruined the game. I see lots of developers here treating their games like apps, where they'll continue adding features (or even reselling a new version!) because they're neat. But no one comes along and randomly tosses new cards into your Monopoly or Uno game because those cards seem like they'd be cool. And while games may have expansions, you can be fairly certain those expansions are researched and tested in the context of the original game before they're sold, and they're sold as a complete piece rather than as ten smaller ones released weekly. You really need a disciplined team to crack this problem, and that's harder to come by in teams than it is individually.There is something I'd like to brainstorm on, though, and maybe it requires a different topic. But I see lots of folks talking about audio gaming being a dead end. Say, for the sake of argument, I agree. Then is there a path forward for indie blind developers? Because, while I'm happy to let audio gaming go, I don't want to let it go at the cost of closing game development off from the blind. That's why I push to make Godot accessible even though we already have audio game engines, or why I advocate for accessibility in every open source game engine project I find. If audio-only games are a dead end, then how do we design games with broader accessibility in mind when we can't see the graphics?The only path that occurs to me are roguelikes, if not as a genre, then as a basis for a path forward. Nothing says that a roguelike has to use an ASCII console or can't have great sound design. If anything, Hades is good proof of that. I wonder if we can use roguelike concepts to get a toehold in creating more accessible games? ASCII graphics and symbols can be rendered graphically. Maybe if someone took, say, a half dozen different genre tilesets and gave them very descriptive labels, we could render basic enough graphics such that any good ideas might shine through despite that? It all sounds a bit desperate, and while I'm as eager to throw away audio-only gaming as many of you might be, I wouldn't want to d
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-13
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : crashmaster via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Firstly there will always be audiogames.I guess, the modern ones may be shifting to alexa, and the input will be voice.Since a lot of things from blind organisations and libraries etc are moving off cds etc to smart tech like my local one is, the amazon and google systems re becoming more and more important and will probably become a big focus in the coming decades.Computer wize, yeah eventually mainstream games will mean we won't need audiogames anymore.There will be a day when we can buy a game and it will just work on a console that will just work.There will not be any inaccessible anything.But by then all the blind and disabled will no longer be blind or disabled and the world will be a happy place to live in.That day is not today and it is my opinion that we will probably if we even see this day eventually will have to wait for it.Main reason, we are humans.Sure we could if we tried and stopped trying to beat eachother up, and throw hurdles in eachother's way, wreck our environment and not have to contend with its challenges like this virus and spend time yelling at eachother but thats never going to stop.We have the bits for utopia but maybe not all of us have enough of a will to get there.For that reason, I think we will continue as we are at least for the next 1 or 2 centuries.This is supposing we get it right in this one.Its not over, but we have our environment, this virus being part of it, and our own ambitions to handle and ourselves.We can progress by ourselves yet it is us stopping us from getting to where we want to go.I don't think a lot of us have realised that yet.Some of us but not enough.At any rate I was there in the beginning when audyssey was a magazine on the old paulhenrichsen site when the net was yung and people played interactive fiction a lot.The games companies that shaped us existed from 1999 to 2010.Some of those have stopped.bavisoft, now dead.Pcs, and draconis, stopped or just not doing much.Bsc/blindsoftware, burned out.Gma games, stopped for now.Usagames, dead literally.Kitchensinc.Same as usa.Spoonbill.Unknown status.Esp softworks/ alchemy, probably dead now.Blind adrenaline.Unknown status but probably no longer opperational.Later on oriolgomez, paused for now.Realitysoftware, down due to burnout and hackers.Kaldobsky still semi active.We havn't had any real revolutions since usagames.This excludes soundsupport and the duch university which manages the database and the various student groups.It also excludes the chinese and japanese scenes.We had a string of companies and games from code factory to well others.These companies existed to produce games and pumped them out from 1995 through to 2008.With bgt other single bands jumpped on, some succeeding some not.The big issue, bar some of the old companies like l-works or at least its developer still active as well as a bit of gma, we havn't had any massive comercial team active for ages.And this also excludes companies like generalcoffee and others who only released a single title.We had various groups like the guy making the blind eye, last crusade and teraformas.We have had a few hybrid projects but noting huge.With the shift to mobile devices and into consoles, pc gaming maybe just a niche now as it is.The next generation may actually not use computers as we do.I have seen this on laptops where storage is little and everything is done online.However those people probably have a desktop, its still the desktops which have more storage options these days.The market continues but is running slowly.I doubted back then 5 years ago that we could keep the speed we had.Lets face it, alone we don't have the cash for sound libraries not conercial ones and no licences.We have survived because we really havn't caughted the market's attention which is good since we could get into trouble for stolen sounds, ideas and all sorts of things that could get us shut down.None of us could afford any suit.So the only thing to do would to throw all our code away, games, completely reformat and forget about it alltogether.We could still get there if there were a few teams together but its even harder now with covid.Its hard even now.I think the next chapter in game accessibility will to work of something existing rather than making our own.Now audiogames as an indi deal will always have its place.But the next push will have to be with the trends of things.And yes while where we can handle it the pc, the next will be a cross platform approach with phones and speakers as well as pcs, consoles and different os types, linux is one of those types where no one really has pushed into as such.Its not helped with the fact that most of the western world depends on windows.I do eventually want to use linux but I use so much on windows I could never shift linux to my primary system so it would have to be secondary.I manage several people on windows and well thats th
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-13
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer I haven't felt sufficiently interested in mainstream games as to wish I could play them since the PS2 era. Maybe-maybe DBZenoverse and Spider-man. if all the games from the past 5 years suddenly became accessible, I wouldn't care. Should I expect the hypothetical accessible games to come to be any better?Basically, I'll still want to make games regardless, and I expect other blind people will, too. Maybe we won't need audiogames.net for more than archival purposes, but a blindgamedevs.net will remain needed so long as there are blind game devs. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589491/#p589491 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-13
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Nocturnus via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer I mean I xsuppose if you start making audio dramas from that perspective? Make a cinematic audio story the listener is part of? I dunno. Even there the market is interesting. Old time radio shows that it was once there but the rise of TV kind of faded it out... I'm just not really seeing it. There's die hard fans in almost any circle, but that doesn't make it a viable one in which to consistently exist. Text games really don't require much in the way to keep going other than writing. Audio games? At the very least you need sound to fuel them, and sound designing isn't a cheap hobby. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589482/#p589482 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-13
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : JayJay via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Nah, I doubt it. If that were the case text games would have completely died out by now. Audiogames may become like this emersive experience, especially in a world of VR. Imagine playing AHC in a true VR experience. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589467/#p589467 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-13
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : arqmeister via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer I think eventually we won't need this site to put it bluntly. Why you might ask? Because mainstream games will be accessible in the next few years, until then i think games will be accessible enough to complete independently. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589419/#p589419 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-13
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Nocturnus via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer This seems to confirm what I've already stated here in this topic as to which direction the winds are blowing. Can you believe that was more than likely the result of the collective effort of far too few individuals? Why? Because so many of us are worried about audiogames and their future!If it is true that Sony has finally released a screen reader that makes their console a workable, viable alternative to what we've been hacking away at over here for the past 15, 20 years or even longer, is this at the very least, not worth considering part of the solution? At this rate, I feel like aasking a stupid question, but ask it I shall. What have you got to lose? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589415/#p589415 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-13
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : LordLundin via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer I totally get the burnout ... I was 13 once too, and was constantly doing stuff. Things that would probably be horrifying and awkward to put on my resume, but I always regret not releasing something and I hate how fast I got burned out. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589406/#p589406 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
Re: reflections from a former developer I'd like to add in my two sense as another developer here. I haven't released any audio games that I, personally, have developed independently, but I was on the development team of Snow Race, DMNB and DMPA and I actively participated in all three projects.One problem that I typically have, personally, is that I tend to start something and then eventually get bored of it and move onto something else. A lot of projects that I've initiated have died spectacularly that way. It isn't that I burn out, but more that I tend to use low-level languages for (all) of my projects, with very few exceptions, because I feel most comfortable in said languages, and eventually I just get bored of the project. I'd be happy to collaborate on audio games; I do have a few projects I might put up on github just for archival purposes. It wouldn't be overly hard for me to -- say -- restart the development on them, and I'd love to, because I really do have good ideas. But all of them are in low-level languages like C++ or Rust, and I don't know many on this forum who know the language well enough to go tackle the projects with me, and even less who have enough time to actually do that. It isn't that I hate Python; I really enjoy the language and I love how flexible it is. However, one of my beefs with Python -- which exists to this day -- is that most of the gaming libraries you find are python 2 only. Sure, you've got SDL2 and such, but there are very few OpenAL bindings for Python 3 last time I checked, and that problem persists for various other types of libraries as well, requiring me to invent my own bindings via ctypes or C/Rust-based python modules. As time goes by -- and especially with synthizer -- that problem will be alleviated, and I'm grateful for that, but I'll always prefer C/Rust over Python purely because its a lot easier for me to trivially pull in dependencies in those languages than it is in Python, and I don't have to do strange magic to get it to work (for example, if I want to use an audio library that I like but that's written in C, there isn't much I have to do to call the raw bindings from Rust, though it will complicate code, and if I use C++ I don't have to do anything).Perhaps my complaints aren't very legitimate anymore, but back when I was working on this project they definitely were (plus I had -- and still have -- VCPKG, which is awesome).Like I said: I'd love to revive some of my projects if people would like, though it would take me a while, especially given the fact that the code is rather messy and I need to do some (major) cleanup on it. But if anyone would want to work on a game with me in Python, I wouldn't mind that either. I'd love to see more collaboration just for the sake of it because we need a lot more of that if we want to get out of this perpetual cycle of shitty projects and very few good titles. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589368/#p589368 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-12
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : dardar via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer There are some really interesting thoughts raised in this topic and in particular I admit to enjoying the views people have xpressed.I've hesitated on posting simply because of well, what to say!Especially as a lot of people already covered what I would say. I think it's important though to point something out.Something I've seen several developers do, and something they continue to do:code for cash.They know they're not going to get rich. But they'll slap a project together, hell it might even be a solid 6 out of 10. They'll charge for it, 5 bucks, 10 bucks, and... After about 6 months or, more usually, the first bad update... They disappear. Only to repeat the cycle a year later.I've seen this done over and over again and it really leaves a bad taste in my mouth if I'm honest.So, yes, that's problem number one: People code for cash.Problem number two: Legalities.there is, quite frankly, no enforceable legality on this forum, or really in audiogames in general. As has been stated, most developers (me included) code as a hobby because we like to help out. Whether it's a game or some software, we do it to make a difference. If it gives us a rep as a great person, or if our name becomes known, then great, bonus! but for the most part, it's just to be helpful. Indeed, based on this we're not making any cash off of the audiogames, and even if we were it'd be probably a max of about 200 bucks.To enforce any kind of legality you need a lawyer. If you walk into a lawyers office with 200 bucks, they'll let you shake their hand, give you a cup of coffee, put their arm around you and walk you carefully out of the door again.Big company's can employ many, many developers because when they hire a developer they sign an NDA which if they break, they know they're in deep.Audiogames developers have no such facility.Problem 3: I have this new... oh. Oh he's done it now.We are a small community. As such sometimes, developer's ideas overlap. Let me give an example, about 6 months ago I was very excited to crack open the coding book and get started on a magic the gathering accessible card game adaptation. I was extremely excited to do this, right up until I saw another developer put up a new releases that they'd done it.Obviously this takes the wind out of your sails a bit. And all credit to him/her and my full respect and congratulations in that regard. I was lucky, I had other projects to fall back on (far too many projects if I'm honest). But for younger, less experienced developers that can spell the end of a career, right there.Problem 3: Respect.Now obviously there's the respect of developers, but there's also the respect of users. Too many developers develop (ha ha) a holier than thou attitude. That is wrong. The deeper you get into the knowledge of code, the further you withdraw from being a gamer. You lose that spark of what makes gaming special.I've been out of the audiogame development for about... It has to be at least a year since I released shuffle cars and the last "game" I made before that has to be trick or eat. Have I given up on audiogames development? No. Of course not. but what I have done is lost touch on what people want, and what I, as a gamer, enjoy doing. I'm not about to disrespect the community by throwing together something I don't enjoy.Problem 4: Ego.Might seem an obvious one, right/ but To be a developer, you need ego. you need enough ego to stand up and say, this. This is a good project! But you also don't want enough ego that when someone says, okay, it's good but... You end up ignoring them.I've rambled on for quite a while because this is a topic I have lots to say in if you get me started, but I want to finish off by briefly touching on video games v.s. audio games.I whole heartedly believe it is possible to make a video game styled audio game.I most certainly believe it is doable, no questions asked.Do I think anyone in this community has the experience or patience to do it? Maybe, but it's a very, very few and none under 25, that's for sure. And yes, that includes yours truly.The simple fact is video games take months, if not years to come up with. When a company makes a video game it's the *entire* company. Making an audio game that is on a level with a video game is undoubttedly possible, but it will take time, at estimate? I'd say a year. At best!Could I do it/ Doubt it.I have the coding skill to do it, sure.But could I stay focussed enough on that one lone thing? No. I'm not interested enough. And that's the problem if you ask me.There are very few, if not none, developers in this community who are interested enough in video games who would take that length of time to reproduce such a high quality product to be on a bar with the mechanics and story o
Re: reflections from a former developer
Re: reflections from a former developer @Nocturnis,Think about it this way. We've got tons of games that were made that are totally free...so monetary compensation isn't always an issue. In fact, I posit that given the low price points of most games as well as the fact that most developers code in their spare time rather than as a full-time job, I think it's safe to say that no developer in our community believes that creating audiogames will get them rich. Most of the people in this community write games as a hobby, because they enjoy gaming, they have ideas, they like coding. They're not doing it to get rich. Hell, we have a lot of games that have been released that are totally free...some of them very, very good. So, if money isn't a consideration, you're making a game that you know you aren't looking to make money on, why not collaborate together?? In other words, if I'm coding a game that I'm releasing to the community for free anyway, and I'm doing it solo, monetary compensation obviously isn't an issue for me, and if I had help, there would be nothing to split. So why can't I work with a group to do the same thing? If the game is being made for the community with no charge for it, then it seems like it wouldn't matter if it's done by one person, or whether 500 people chip in to help make something epically awesome.@Nidza07,Isn't there a risk of that happening in any group collaborative situation, though? I would think that risk is equal to everyone, blind or sighted, and across all professions and all walks of life.JLove URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589288/#p589288 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-12
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : nidza07 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer What Nocturnus said, plus one more important aspect, trust. I feel like noone trusts anybody in the community to collaborate. It is sad, but not entirely unfounded. I mean, you don't want your game leaking out after the first beta just because one developer disagreed on an idea and left the team. There is no easy way to prevent something like that. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589278/#p589278 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-12
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Nocturnus via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer @JLove, your point is taking one important aspect out of the equation, and that is compensation, be it monitary or otherwise. The more people you have colaborating on a project, the more that has to be split up. The more that has to be split up, the more the game has to make in order to actually succeed as a viable project worth being worked upon for a good chunk of time, especially if we're talking financially. I do not believe it's soley about the credit as it is about people who don't really want to pay for audiogames that don't feel like their competeing on equall footing against their mainstream counterparts, and in an already small, somewhat fractured and somewhat unstable community, the incentive just doesn't exist. for every good paid audiogame you can find I'm pretty sure someone's got a freebee that is equall to if not betterr, and that raises the question, in a small community, why on earth am I going to pay for something when I don't have to?but there's more. Consider that some of the people here are from less than fortunate, let alone privileged walks of life, that their parents don't give them access to electronic payment methods, that even if they wanted to in some countries those methods are not legal and or flat out inaccessible to their citizens. This is where things get dicy, because while cracking is illegal, you run into the moral reasoning behind it. If I can crack it for someone who's not able to play it for this or that reason, then I'm doing a good thing, right? Problem is, devs don't look kindly on that, and with good reason. We can argue about the financial loss as it pertains to mainstream gaming and how much huge companies lose because a player cracked it and a couple thousand or more give or take ended up with the game for free because p2p is a thing. On the other hand, a couple of hundred having fre access to a paid audiogame is substancially greater because of the size of the community. Lose lose situation. Legal is not always moral, and moral is not always legal, but the two come together here and produce a profound sense of loss for a community that already has trouble coming together, in comparison to a bunch of companies who can aford to pay developers to quit every other aspect of life to dedicate their time to creating games. That is not something audiogaming has going for it, as neither you, nor I, know a single developer let alone a team of them, who has/have quit their jobs and had/have immense amounts of justifiable time and resources to make a livable life out of audiogaming. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589226/#p589226 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-12
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : black_mana via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer if you say collaboration, it's just not for developers, if you're gonna truely create something that can be considered as a title, you'll have to have a team working together, and never ever giveup on their goal.that being said, developers, sound designers, and people who create content for the game. i'm sure their are talented people in all difrent feilds, if you really want to make progress or even a change, we'll have to work together, if not, then we're for ever stuck in this deep hole URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589222/#p589222 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-12
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Keywasfull did collaborate with others on Grave of Redemption, though. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589223/#p589223 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-12
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : black_mana via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer if you say collaboration, it's just not for developers, if you're gonna truely create something that can be considered as a title, you'll have to have a team working together, and never ever giveup on their goal.that being said, developers, sound designers, and people who create content for the game. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589222/#p589222 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-12
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : black_mana via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer if you say collaboration, it's just not for developers, if you're gonna truely create something that can be considered as a title, you'll have to have a team working together, and never ever giveup on their goal. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589222/#p589222 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
Re: reflections from a former developer But again, I come back to my original points, because I think they play a huge role foundationally.Developers in this community start a project, one that they insist on doing solo, then get overwhelmed, and instead of reaching out for help, they just give up. It's too hard...it will take too long to finish. Again, if we can't crank it out now, then it's not worth it. And, yes, I believe that if people worked together, instead of always trying to do everything like they're a fucking island, we'd have something great to show for it. Take, for example, Key's statement above. He said:Battle zone reloaded was probably my last gasp at trying to make audio games in the near future, and it isn't even the fault of audio games really. I think it's just my inability to program sustainable and extensible games, or to juggle all the pieces of large projects. I often feel like I am trying to manage too much data at once...So, if he was so overwhelmed, why was his inclination to give up, rather than to get a team of devs to help him? Seems like perhaps, if he had some support, some extra hands helping him, he wouldn't have felt so overwhelmed. I'm not picking on him, and I mean no offense. I use it merely as an illustrative point.How many times have we seen a developer who insisted on coding games solo, inevitably burn out, say they just couldn't handle it, etc? The thing is, we've got many good programmers in this community. We've got people who are great with sound design and editing. We've got people who can come up with great ideas. But if we refuse to work together, then we will forever remain stagnant. I think we're too focused on the credit, rather than the end result. I can't help but feel like no one wants to work with anyone else because they would have to share the credit...but so what? How many times have we seen a dev abandon a project, one that has huge potential, and refuse to give it to another coder to continue? I see no point in that...if you're abandoning your project, and someone else can complete it, make it great, why not let them? I can't help but wonder if it's a, quote, but then I won't get the credit, end quote, mentality. We should be focused on the result...on finishing a project that will be enjoyed by everyone. And no one person should have to do it all. It would also shorten the amount of time to actually release something. What one person can do in 3 years, might be cut in half if they actually had people helping them. But again, for whatever reason, everyone in this community thinks they're an island unto themselves, and I just don't get it. If there's so much passion for gaming in this community, then why not come together and turn that passion into something epic? We've got the intelligence and the ability. I honestly think it is a question of mentality...and until the mentality changes, the state of audiogames and their development will not change.JLove URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589214/#p589214 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-12
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Nocturnus via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Totally agree with @CAE_Jones. Where's our Turok: ? Cruising the world/USA/other titles of that nature? Mario Kart? Diddy Kong racing? DK country/64? Super Smash Brothers? Banjo-Kazooie? Golden Eye? And yes, you knew it was coming... Perfect Dark! Forever, Perfect Dark!No, I haven't forgotten you, Sony... I had my fair share of fun on playstations, just not as much as I did on my n64, because I was a poor kid with poor parents and not enough money to indulge myself. Twisted metal was a cool concept; Tony Hawk's Pro Skater was fun to watch in action, and Resident Evil and Final Fantasy all had their place here as well. Spiro intrigued me but I only got to see someone playing it like, once. Everything beyond that was a sports game in some shape or form, so sadly can't comment any further, though I'm sure everyone who had a playstation can pick up the slack.The point is quite simply that the two markets are still very, very different, and to try and compare them? You have to have a great understanding of the mainstream market and what it did to really see how drastically different it is from the audiogames market and what it has yet to do, conceptualize or even try to expand upon. The question of whether we should, however, is one that has been biting at me for the past ten years now, and the more I wrestle with it, the more I have come to believe that this is an exceptionally high expectation, considering that in all reality what we're discussing here is trying to meet up to the standard of a video game with an audio game, when the two are drastically different matters. One is usually developed by an already established company that collects data on players and what they're into and what things are trending at any given moment in time, then turns that data into a plausible budget to develop a game that will see some sort of return profit for its eforts, while the other is usually brought together by a gamer with a passion for gaming who trys to catch some semblance of what gaming is on a smaller scale, no graphics, no console other than a computer/smart phone, and very little money to work with and no agreed standard by which to develop because the rest of the community he or she depends upon is far to busy arguing about C versus Python versus a pile of scripts that can get the job done quickly but which may result in a less than desirable game in the end.so the struggle to develop an audio game that compares to a video game is huge, and one that I believe most audiogamers do not take seriously enough. That Aprone was genuinely willing enough to invest so much time into his projects was a matter of good fortune from which this community benefited. I doubt it was all as easy as he made it seem, however, and if I had to guess what was the biggest struggle, I'm willing to bet anything he would at least toy with the idea of saying it's the community. that he had the desire and the passion to do it is more than obvious. That he always felt like his work was appreciated, particularly when he tried to innovate and introduce new concepts? I still wonder.but here we are all the same. I believe we have failed and will continue to fail, because audiogames are a genre; not a standard. We have tried to rally around it and thus created a culture for ourselves and many of us are unwilling to leave it behind for fear of there not being anything on the other side. I thought my passion for gaming had died away, but this topic has proven to me that this is not the case, and posts here have reminded me of the fact that if I had a console, even MK or Tekken releases would satisfy me for a good long while before I put them down, and there's probably more outu there I'm just not considering right now because audiogames. this is where I've been for the past 10 years of my life. I won't say I didn't have any fun... I can still pick up JD, SL, q9, Time of Conflict which was really the only GMA game I honestly liked, and AHC is alright as a time waster now because I've already completed it a couple of times. Muds? I'm not hugely fond of scrolling text and never was... I only needed AOL chatrooms to show me that. Maybe it has something to do with my hearing impairment, but I never did learn to speedread with a screen reader just to process massive mountains of information. Alter Aeon was the exception, only because Mush-z is a thing. Miriani never had a truly dedicated soundpack, and everyone pretends to hate scripting while it's obvious they're still developing them for their own personal gains.IN short, coupled with all of the titles I've already mentioned and some I haven't, ranging from Castlevania to Body Harvest, from Gran Turismo to WWF's In Your House, there are just more titles on the mainstream side of things that I would willingly pick up f
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-12
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Nocturnus via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Totally agree with @CAE_Jones. Where's our Turok: ? Cruising the world/USA/other titles of that nature? Mario Kart? Diddy Kong racing? DK country/64? Super Smash Brothers? Banjo-Kazooie? Golden Eye? And yes, you knew it was coming... Perfect Dark! Forever, Perfect Dark!No, I haven't forgotten you, Sony... I had my fair share of fun on playstations, just not as much as I did on my n64, because I was a poor kid with poor parents and not enough money to indulge myself. Twisted metal was a cool concept; Tony Hawk's Pro Skater was fun to watch in action, and Resident Evil and Final Fantasy all had their place here as well. Spiro intrigued me but I only got to see someone playing it like, once. Everything beyond that was a sports game in some shape or form, so sadly can't comment any further, though I'm sure everyone who had a playstation can pick up the slack.The point is quite simply that the two markets are still very, very different, and to try and compare them? You have to have a great understanding of the mainstream market and what it did to really see how drastically different it is from the audiogames market and what it has yet to do, conceptualize or even try to expand upon. The question of whether we should, however, is one that has been biting at me for the past ten years now, and the more I wrestle with it, the more I have come to believe that this is an exceptionally high expectation, considering that in all reality what we're discussing here is trying to meet up to the standard of a video game with an audio game, when the two are drastically different matters. One is usually developed by an already established company that collects data on players and what they're into and what things are trending at any given moment in time, then turns that data into a plausible budget to develop a game that will see some sort of return profit for its eforts, while the other is usually brought together by a gamer with a passion for gaming who trys to catch some semblance of what gaming is on a smaller scale, no graphics, no console other than a computer/smart phone, and very little money to work with and no agreed standard by which to develop because the rest of the community he or she depends upon is far to busy arguing about C versus Python versus a pile of scripts that can get the job done quickly but which may result in a less than desirable game in the end.so the struggle to develop an audio game that compares to a video game is huge, and one that I believe most audiogamers do not take seriously enough. That Aprone was genuinely willing enough to invest so much time into his projects was a matter of good fortune from which this community benefited. I doubt it was all as easy as he made it seem, however, and if I had to guess what was the biggest struggle, I'm willing to bet anything he would at least toy with the idea of saying it's the community. that he had the desire and the passion to do it is more than obvious. That he always felt like his work was appreciated, particularly when he tried to innovate and introduce new concepts? I still wonder.but here we are all the same. I believe we have failed and will continue to fail, because audiogames are a genre; not a standard. We have tried to rally around it and thus created a culture for ourselves and many of us are unwilling to leave it behind for fear of there not being anything on the other side. I thought my passion for gaming had died away, but this topic has proven to me that this is not the case, and posts here have reminded me of the fact that if I had a console, even MK or Tekken releases would satisfy me for a good long while before I put them down, and there's probably more outu there I'm just not considering right now because audiogames. this is where I've been for the past 10 years of my life. I won't say I didn't have any fun... I can still pick up JD, SL, q9, Time of Conflict which was really the only GMA game I honestly liked, and AHC is alright as a time waster now because I've already completed it a couple of times. Muds? I'm not hugely fond of scrolling text and never was... I only needed AOL chatrooms to show me that. Maybe it has something to do with my hearing impairment, but I never did learn to speedread with a screen reader just to process massive mountains of information. Alter Aeon was the exception, only because Mush-z is a thing. Miriani never had a truly dedicated soundpack, and everyone pretends to hate scripting while it's obvious they're still developing them for their own personal gains.IN short, coupled with all of the titles I've already mentioned and some I haven't, ranging from Castlevania to Body Harvest, from Gran Turismo to WWF's In Your House, there are just more titles that I would willingly pick up for what some people may think is min
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-12
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : JayJay via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Meh. Most of the runners seem to pretty much be reskinned versions of each other. Also, @15, that's true. Hence why we see a lot of audiogames being rather crappy in the early versions, then being actually good in the end. But sadly, by the time the games become good the devs for one reason or another burn out their hydrogen and turn to a red giant and burns the project to the ground. BTS is a recent example of that IMO. It had its problems sure, but if you compare earlier versions to later versions its such a massive contrast. ROTU is also slowly becomming an example of that, with fucktons of lag in the earlies then new features being added in later on. Devs just seem to have this dev as we go attitude as apposed to a yeah, lets flesh out everything from the start and try our best to add it in before release, then add in whatever little bits and bobs the players think would be good additions to the game. Ever wonder why audiogames always have so much versions? Hell. Ultrapower was over version 20. Like bruh. And BTS throughout its liftime probably was up to version ten at least. Or to add in a reference to a clone, constant battle 7.0 I believe we're up to now. Haven't played that in a while but goes to show URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589118/#p589118 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-12
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : JayJay via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Meh. Most of the runners seem to pretty much be reskinned versions of each other URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589118/#p589118 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-12
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : keyIsFull via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Battle zone reloaded was probably my last gasp at trying to make audio games in the near future, and it isn't even the fault of audio games really. I think it's just my inability to program sustainable and extensible games, or to juggle all the pieces of large projects. I often feel like i am trying to manage too much data at once, and trying to make things like a level editor, with all of the things I wanted so I could design the level in a wysiwyg interface, just didn't work out for me. I really liked the smoothe sound design in bzr, and I realize that that's probably my forte when it comes to game creation and development. I do a lot better creating content than actually programming infrastructure. TO be fair, I'm a lot better at programming now that I started my job so maybe I wouldn't be that bad now, but I don't have high confidence. I think my hope for bzr was to make a side scroller that combined the best parts of the bokurano deboukin series with the best of the beat em up fighting games I'd played. Again, it's showing its age. Side scrollers seem to age really fast, and yet there is still plenty of room to innovate.I have yet to see anything like temple run, which is something I had considered making a few years ago when endless runner games were all the rage. Right now the major endless runners we have, Perilous Marathon, Fear, and Endless Runner, move the player in a single direction, forward, and the player controls every step in the other directions, but I'm pretty sure that there was jumping, platforming and strategic falling involved in temple run, which would be the next step of the journey for the runner games. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589096/#p589096 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-12
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer For collaboration, you need to have the sort of situation for which collaboration, rather than one dev hiring another to do some of the work, makes sense. And most of the ideas I care enough about to bother reaching out over are ones I have decades of notes and content associated with, which does not necessarily remove creative opportunities for the hypothetical team, but I'm not sure how many people are in this because they want to manifest someone else's ideas, rather than their own. And I'll just let the history of Star Wars speak to the virtues of different styles of project completion (auteur vs committee vs whatever you call the OT).So we either need devs who are game devs, first and foremost, or we need incentive for the auteur style to be viable. The first might work better (see: AHC), but I get the impression that the latter better describes Swamp / Bokurano Daibouken / Manamon. Eh, if I win the lottery soon-ish, I'll put a million or two USD into subsidizing both, and we'll see which bears fruit. BTW, any time-travelers, prophets, or telekines with access to the Powerball who want this outcome, you know what to do . URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589067/#p589067 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-12
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Juliantheaudiogamer via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer @JLove: I fully agree on both points. Just imagine what audiogames could be made if the devs just gave themselves time to finish a project or if multiple devs worked together to create something huge. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589049/#p589049 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-11
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Wilson via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Ah, battle Zone.The audiogame that begins this adventure.Man, my english were very bad back then, and it tooks me a fiew days just to guess what, jump over a pit, and probably a fiew weeks on how to katch items. But afterwords, It was hours upon hours of funI'm stil flooded with memorys, So I can't say much.Thank you, For Creating BattleZone.Isn't All the trilogy of Bokurano dayboukenn out with in a 4 years time, 1 in 2010, 2 at the end of 2011, and 3 on 2013. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/589006/#p589006 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
Re: reflections from a former developer @jloveI totally agree with you.If you look at the really good games (a hero's call, tactical battle, etc), all of them tok long to be fully complete.Unfortunately as you said most people don't want to wait to have their project released. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588996/#p588996 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
Re: reflections from a former developer I wonder if part of the problem is the, quote, instant gratification, end quote, mentality that has afflicted our society, both in terms of devs as well as the playerbase. What I mean is this:One of the reasons that I believe Shadow Rine and BK3 were such huge successes is that the developers didn't rush to complete them. I believe it took years for those games to be completed. And because the developers took the extra time to code, add features from the ground up instead of trying to add them as afterthoughts, test, thoroughly bug check, etc., because they didn't just rush to slap something haphazardly together, we got true quality. I think that a lot of developers don't have the, quote, in it for the long haul, end quote, mentality. They don't want to spend years on a project. And the quality suffers because of it. They get impatient. They get stuck on a part of their code, and instead of asking for help, they just give up. We don't persevere anymore. If we can't do it, fix it, or have it now, then it's not worth it. That mentality hurts us immensely. The second problem that I believe hurts developers in this community is the nonsensical idea that we can't, or shouldn't, work together. For whatever reason, I hardly ever see a project with more than two or three devs. Why is it that a large group of coders won't get together and come up with something truly innovative? Is it an attempt to have all of the glory and the credit? I mean, shouldn't the end result be the goal, not who gets what accolades and credit? The mentality with devs in this community seems to be that they have to fly solo...and then they inevitably burn out and abandon projects that have great potential. Working together, collaborating on large projects, spreading the workload among many instead of one or two, might lessen burnout significantly and allow for fresh and innovative ideas. And there's no excuse for the go it alone mentality in this day and age...we have more than enough technology to facilitate global communication and collaboration. Just my thoughts.JLove URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588914/#p588914 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
Re: reflections from a former developer I wonder if part of the problem is the, quote, instant gratification, end quote, mentality that has afflicted our society, both in terms of devs as well as the playerbase. What I mean is this:One of the reasons that I believe Shadow Rine and BK3 were such huge successes is that the developers didn't rush to complete them. I believe it took years for those games to be completed. And because the developers took the extra time to code, add features from the ground up instead of trying to add them as afterthoughts, test, thoroughly bug check, etc., because they didn't just rush to slap something haphazardly together, we got true quality. I think that a lot of developers don't have the, quote, in it for the long haul, end quote, mentality. They don't want to spend years on a project. And the quality suffers because of it. They get impatient. They get stuck on a part of their code, and instead of asking for help, they just give up. We don't persevere anymore. If we can't do it, fix it, or have it now, then it's not worth it. That mentality hurts us immensely. The second problem that I believe hurts developers in this community is the nonsensical idea that we can't, or shouldn't, work together. For whatever reason, I hardly ever see a project with more than two or three devs. Why is it that a large group of coders won't get together and come up with something truly innovative? The mentality with devs in this community seems to be that they have to fly solo...and then they inevitably burn out and abandon projects that have great potential. Working together, collaborating on large projects, spreading the workload among many instead of one or two, might lessen burnout significantly and allow for fresh and innovative ideas. And there's no excuse for the go it alone mentality in this day and age...we have more than enough technology to facilitate global communication and collaboration. Just my thoughts.JLove URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588914/#p588914 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-11
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : electro via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer @9 I was also asking for bzr! Fun concept, however I don't know if it will... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588902/#p588902 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-11
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : microsoftsam203 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Thhank you for this great post. I'd like you to know that from the day I downloaded battle zone many hours were spend playing that game. I liked the ambiance, the espeak-acted cutscenes, the bosses, everything, and although I died very much I still kept coming back.All in all you have done a good job. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588737/#p588737 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-11
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : microsoftsam203 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Thhank you for this great post. I'd like you to know that from the day I downloaded battle zone many hours were spend playing that game. I liked the ambiance, the espeak-acted cutscenes, the bosses, everything, and although I died very much I still kept coming back. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588737/#p588737 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-11
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Juliantheaudiogamer via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Thanks for the great post! I think everyone has to start out small, but then get better on the way. Who knows? Maybe grave of redemption could have become a legendary good game if it was ever finished? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588717/#p588717 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-10
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer @8: Mid 2000s? We just got to 1997, with Manamon and AHC. Maybe you're counting the FPS games as 2000s? TBH I don't really feel like we've completed half of the 90s (Do we have anything vaguely resembling Super Mario 64? Gauntlet anything?), and certainly haven't come anywhere near the 2000s as regards any genre other than FPS.But yeah, I wonder how many people give up because they don't feel like they can compete with BK3 and Shadow Rlrline. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588684/#p588684 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-10
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : BoundTo via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Battle Zone. It brings me back to the first time I stumbled across the forum. What a different feel the community had then. Maybe nostalgia is warping my memory, but it's there all the same. It served as my motivation for learning BGT and for making games primarily for my own enjoyment. I spent so much time modding the sounds and trying to seriously beat the game before just resorting to cheating. I still enjoy the ESpeak cut scenes today. I don't entirely know what the point of this post is. Just call it an appreciation post for one of my first introductions to audio games. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588663/#p588663 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-10
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : BoundTo via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Ah Battle Zone. It brings me back to the first time I stumbled across the forum. What a different feel the community had then. Maybe nostalgia is warping my memory, but it's there all the same. It served as my motivation for learning BGT and for making games primarily for my own enjoyment. I spent so much time modding the sounds and trying to seriously beat the game before just resorting to cheating. I still enjoy the ESpeak cut scenes today. I don't entirely know what the point of this post is. Just call it an appreciation post for one of my first introductions to audio games. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588663/#p588663 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-10
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Cool writeup!Any thoughts on BZR? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588660/#p588660 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-10
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : ironcross32 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer I think most of it comes down to the fact that if developers don't start innovating, we're stuck in the mid 2000s while look at mainstream games. There's a huge disparity between the two. I'm guessing that's why some people are willing to spend hours upon hours learning a mainstream game and even getting hella good at it, because the lack of innovation taunts us. "Here's what you could be doing, if only you had working eyeballs. Doing heists in GTA. Performing well-executed assassinations in Hit Man. Kicking ass in Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Injustice. Cooking by the campfire in Red Dead Redemption 2. Jumping off a mountain in a hang glider in Far Cry." You get the drift, I'm sure.It's not necessarily the fault of younger devs who are trying to put themselves on the map. If they're working hard and learning, and not using stolen code or purloined assets, they're doing the best they can. I don't think most people would have a problem with a small game as someone's first project, providing that they took the time to polish it, and sent it through a testing phase to squash preliminary bugs. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588602/#p588602 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-10
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : nidza07 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer This is actually a very interesting perspective. Looking at it this way, we probably would not have many very well known developers by today's standards. Look at for example the first games Ghorthalon created. I'm not sure what to make of it honestly. Perhaps we are at times indeed being too critical, but the problem is that there's only so many times you can play a basic sidescroller and have fun. Battlezone had unique elements, and it was I think the first BGT sidescroller with so many features. To this day I still prefer it over things like The gate, but that's just my opinion and there are probably people who find it too difficult. Speaking of which, I should re play it just for fun. I wish you continued the second sequel of that game, the concept demo had huge potential. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588595/#p588595 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
Re: reflections from a former developer Oh yeah battle zone! I remember when i was 10 years old and trying to beat the game. Nah, nope, i couldn't even beat the second level! And dont tell me to try it now, i wont because its too damn hard. Or maybe it isn't? Idk. I'll just go with autopilot, thanks.But the worst of the worst are the fucking blades! I hate blades! In crime hunter, in battle zone, in shooter, every where! Blades is a fucking abomination! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588585/#p588585 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-10
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : connor142 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer This is very true, but I think there's some good reasons for it. Firstly, there are just more games. Most of the games that defined the last decade came out between 2010 and 2017, and while that's a long time in any other entertainment industry like mainstream gaming or music, it's perceived as a lot shorter here. With more wheat, however, comes more chaf. That's why as the number of good games increases, so does the number of bad ones, and the number of people who just want quick attention and decide to fork some code.Then there were the japanese games. I think those raised the bar by quite a lot. These days, if you make a side scroller, someone's going to come along and say something like "this game sucks because it isn't as good/long/interesting as bk3, get out!"There has to be some kind of market for the simpler things though as well. I mean, I remember the original scrolling battles, how well it did, and how long it was developed for. Same thing with the shooter concept, the new crime hunter ,etc.Finally, you have to consider that there's sighted indi devs making games accessible now, and even a mainstream publisher or two poking their nose in. That'll just raise the standard even higher. I don't know where audio games will go in the next 10 years, or whether we'll even need them by the time the next console generation comes (read. ps6/the next xbox). But if devs want them to stick around, they're going to need to shape up in some way. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588501/#p588501 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-10
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : electro via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Ah, and if in the future you try to rewrite Battle something from BGT to Python, I'm afrade will have a more solid base I think or not what ever just I got? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588466/#p588466 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-10
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : electro via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer Reading this post got me some nostalgia. Firstly with Battle zone that I even remembered the unfinished? sequel? that I was playing. Damage Extreme was also one of my favorites. I know eaven those games hath went agely kind of... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588462/#p588462 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer
2020-11-10
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : jescat277 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: reflections from a former developer I actually really liked this post, thank you for taking the time to write it. This, at least in my opinion, was really well thought out, and it was a pleasure to read. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/588434/#p588434 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
