Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-24
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : patrickthepatshit via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Ah okay. I will look into Python 3. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/414363/#p414363 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-21
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus The Python2.7 vs Python3 thing reminds me of Windows XP. The software, security, and ability to adapt to new hardware improved, but enough was broken or otherwise made worse in the process that a vast userbase stuck with the older one. It didn't take as long for Python to fix the issues, compared to Windows, but yeah. When the old one gets the job done well enough, and the new one breaks things, you'll get holdouts.(Must not make comparisons to how the Ashanti stopped using swords when they modernized their military, and this being their undoing because those would have been muy helpful against all those British Bayonet charges that decided several battles. You can melee effectively with a bayonetted rifle, but swords are made for adaptable melee. Even World War II had some situations that ended in sword fights, and that was, like, a whole 40 years later.)But yeah, the issues with upgrading Python seem to have sufficiently resolved that I went ahead and installed Python3. ... On my newest device, running Windows 7. Because it's my computer, blast it, not Microsoft's. Little did I realize how noticeably faster Win8 is than 7. At least connecting the internet doesn't result in Microdaemons forceably rebooting the thing without warning, or any of that crap. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/413481/#p413481 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Use Python 3 if you can. Python 2 will be officially EOL in 2020. @108, no, Python does not require you to write your own compiler error checkerthing. No programming language requires you to do that. It will report errors to you just as anything else would. Pyinstaller is not a program that "compiles" your Python source code; all it is is a program that bundles your python code, all the libraries it needs, and a python interpreter into a nice little package for you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/413445/#p413445 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-21
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : keithwipf1 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Hmm, I found pyinstaller with Python, it's a library thing that compiles you're python code into an executable. .I got Python 2.7, with PIP, you should get that, pygame, PYAUTOGUI, and other stuff. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/413437/#p413437 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-20
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : patrickthepatshit via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus I do think it would be really cool to learn but I just don't have the time and stuff to screw with it. It would probably be good to start now? Maybe not. Don't know. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/413285/#p413285 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-20
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : patrickthepatshit via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus My issue with Python is that it's... Just... To hard for me to get use to and stuff. BGT has like a simple documentation thing, with Python you gotta find out which documentation thing would be right for you, you have to make you're own compiler and/or compilation error check I think, and you can't just press enter on a script or else it will just show up with the command line and all that stuff.Granted, I do not know much about Python, maybe I am totally wrong about this, but if you could please point me in the right direction.I am not a good coder in BGT either, but it seems like it is a hell of a lot simpler than Python seems to be. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/413284/#p413284 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-20
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : cmerry via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Yeah, or github... well that’s what i’d personally use if i were to open source anything. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/413189/#p413189 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-20
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : keithwipf1 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Hmm just guessing, but I think you could put you're game on an FTP server, set up one account, deny delete permissions and open source it that way. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/413184/#p413184 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-19
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus It's true that the internet makes working together over long distances more possible than ever. From what I can tell, though, having everyone in the same building still makes a huge difference, so long as they're not getting in each other's way (etc, distracting or stressful combinations of people and office layout).Some of the grumbling coming out of game studios recently has me wondering about the idea of someone with an idea hiring people to do most of the work. See: the thing where someone (at Tale-Tale, I think?) got complaints for trying to control the contents of a game. It made it sound like everyone was expecting a collaboration, rather than something more like a movie, where the actors are there to act, and the director/producer don't have to let them ad lib or do anything creative if they don't like it. Granted, compare the Star Wars prequels to the first Pirates of the Caribbean to see what difference allowing actors to try their own ideas can make. Or, heck, just compare Attack of the Clones to The Empire Strikes Back. How do you know where the line should be for a particular project? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/413081/#p413081 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Heh. If I ever do manage to get going in a dev sense, I'm definitely going to have to outsource bits, as I simply don't have the time to learn to code and then actually bloody well do it. Ditto sound design. I'll be a concept person. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/413056/#p413056 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Thing is, with all of the filesharing, storage, and videoconferencing tools available nowadays, having one centralized location isn't a must. Teams can work together even if they live thousands of miles apart. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/413045/#p413045 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-19
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus It's worth pointing out that most teams are concentrated in one location. They might have people phoning in recordings or artwork, but for the most part, successful indy teams tend to have as many team-members as they can in the same building. Liam and Aprone are probably the closest to each other on the list, and they're still hundreds of miles apart, and may or may not have one of the Great Lakes between them.If someone wants to start a company, rent a place to use as a studio, and figure out all the logistics and bureaucratic rear-covering stuff, by all means, go for it. Not sure who would be able or willing to relocate to whereever it is, but I'm sure it will result in at least one playable product before Economic Reality gets its greasy hands on everything. Eugh.One of these days, I'll find something optimistic to balance out these sorts of posts. T.T URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/412924/#p412924 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus I agree with a lot of these recent posts. I especially like the idea of several of our great developers coming together to make something fantastic. Imagine Aprone, Liam, and others teaming together to make something really great. Yeah, it may not be as great as some mainstream games, but there's a lot of potential when you get a bunch of people working together. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/412895/#p412895 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-19
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Re: 3d sound, as I recall, Philip's original intention was to use XAudio2 for BGT, but was unable to get it to work without unacceptable amounts of latency. 3d audio took huge leaps circa 2014-15, and on top of that are all the license issues. It's a headache today, and even more so in 2010-11, so Philip going with the reliable 2d sound available on all Windows machines from XP up, and waiting to see if the results would make adding something else worth the trouble, makes a sort of sense, imo. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/412857/#p412857 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Two very good posts, @98 and @99. I have often said that one of the biggest problems in terms of the inability to get an ulta-quality game in this community is that we, as a community, don't work together enough. Very rarely do you see people collaborate on a project. And that's sad to me. All of these people who moan and bitch about clones and all this other crap don't seem to realize that if they actually got together, shared in the work load, were willing to share knowledge, experience, code, sounds, tools, and whatever else, we could have some audiogames that could rival mainstream titles. It's much harder for a single person to develop a game of that magnitude than it is for a team of people to do so. It's much more difficult for a single person to write out 10 thousand lines of code than it is if you've got 10 people who can write 1000 lines apiece. It's why the mainstream devs can do what they do. They don't just have one person coding for them. They've got a whole team of coders who work together. I am a firm believer that people who work together have the ability to accomplish great things. But people in this community rarely, if ever, do it.I don't give a damn what language a game is programmed in. All I care about is the quality and the content. People say it's impossible to make a good quality game with BGT. I don't believe that. There are definite drawbacks to BGT, yes, and definitely some things I wish that Philip had fixed and improved upon, networking being a huge one. Maybe he just thought that no one would ever make a multiplayer game, or that they wouldn't try to make one with more than 2 or 3 players, and so didn't feel the need to make the network object more robust, I don't know. I think that he included some things without thinking about making sure that all of the common associations available in other languages were there. An example of this is vectors. BGT has a vector object, but yet two very common operational calculations that seem to be just part of other language math libraries are missing, namely an opneg method and a normalization method. Pretty standard and common, and very common to see those calculations done with vectors. All of that being said, BGT has a distinct advantage in the ease with which it deals with sounds. No other language has the sound pool like BGT does. With every other language there's a shit load of dependencies or other crap you need, and a shitload of headache and finagling just to get sound to play correctly. I remember looking at the way it's done in C++ and thinking what a ridiculous nightmare it was. No thanks. That sort of headache just isn't worth it. I do wish that BGT could handle 3D sound, but again, maybe when Philip created it he didn't realize that sort of thing would be needed. In any event, I've seen several games that were made with BGT that are quite enjoyable. I'm not going to judge a game based on its coded language at the end of the day.As far as IOS and android development, the biggest issue is most likely Apple's proprietary bullshit. Remember, Android is open source, and their requirements for apps to be put in their store are less stringent, I believe. Apple has a shit load of hoops that you have to jump through, not to mention cost. In a community where devs don't have lots of extra money, that is a problem. I like Apple's hardware. It's exemplary in terms of quality. But their proprietary shit gets on my nerves. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/412794/#p412794 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Two very good posts, @98 and @99. I have often said that one of the biggest problems in terms of the inability to get an ulta-quality game in this community is that we, as a community, don't work together enough. Very rarely do you see people collaborate on a project. And that's sad to me. All of these people who moan and bitch about clones and all this other crap don't seem to realize that if they actually got together, shared in the work load, were willing to share knowledge, experience, code, sounds, tools, and whatever else, we could have some audiogames that could rival mainstream titles. It's much harder for a single person to develop a game of that magnitude than it is for a team of people to do so. It's much more difficult for a single person to write out 10 thousand lines of code than it is if you've got 10 people who can write 1000 lines apiece. It's why the mainstream devs can do what they do. They don't just have one person coding for them. They've got a whole team of coders who work together. I am a firm believer that people who work together have the ability to accomplish great things. But people in this community rarely, if ever, do it.I don't give a damn what language a game is programmed in. All I care about is the quality and the content. People say it's impossible to make a good quality game with BGT. I don't believe that. There are definite drawbacks to BGT, yes, but I've seen several games that were made with BGT that are enjoyable.As far as IOS and android development, the biggest issue is most likely Apple's proprietary bullshit. Remember, Android is open source, and their requirements for apps to be put in their store are less stringent, I believe. Apple has a shit load of hoops that you have to jump through, not to mention cost. In a community where devs don't have lots of extra money, that is a problem. I like Apple's hardware. It's exemplary in terms of quality. But their proprietary shit gets on my nerves. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/412794/#p412794 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Great post, I love your unique insight and the way you broke down the various different outlooks made it easy to follow. I'm honored that we have you as a member of our forum, and keep track of that karma because I think you'll earn allot with posts like 98.However I do have a few points to bring up.And I too am a man of many words, so buckle in. 1. Players not getting mad at BGT, aside from the virus problem for less savvy computer users or those forced into using inaccessible AV software, it's very much true that no one really cares. However the exception lies in network heavy realtime games like FPS's and Side Scrolling PVP titles, because only Sam and Mason have managed to make the BGT network object actually work for them at this point and that took a long, painful time.Even after that we still can't have proper automatic weapons or extra elements like dynamic shell drops, positional bullet zings/impacts ETC because with distance and firing rate,e specially with a larger server load (more than like 6 people) things start to slow to a crawl from the players point of view.It takes allot more effort to get BGT to behave in those situations, and many new coders don't have the experience to really get their hands dirty and figure it out, because it takes allot of hacking and hours upon hours of frustrating trial and error which cut into school and personal time, leading many of them to burn out.Even with that, I believe Sam's network code is still pretty inefficient so he has to shell out for a much more powerful VPS than other games with the same amount of players, and he doesn't even have to deal with visual stutters. This makes a consistent stream of donations a necessity for him, which means catering to the players willing to pay, leading to imbalance.As players I think we use BGT problems as a scapegoat to avoid laying the blame at the feet of inexperienced coders, and the developers are happy to follow along. But that said, every experienced coder I've seen try out BGT is horrified by networking with it and refuses to touch it.2. The reasonable among us don't compare audio games directly to mainstream triple A titles outside of proving a point, but instead to mainstream Indi ones, so while your observations are still useful, your missing the mark a bit.Our community is full of people with depression/anxiety and social problems, striving for a purpose. That's not a dig that's just the truth. The large majority of us are early teens to early 20s so you can add emotional immaturity into that mix, and now our problems with forming teams, code theft, piracy, project management over time, community entitlement, and developer PR start to make allot more sense.I believe the small market issue is secondary to this, with the bigger issue being a deep sense of envy and discontent around mainstream games, which tends to manifest in a demanding and hard to please audience who often say things without considering the impact on the developer's confedense (though to be fair we are also wary do to previous broken promises) and the fact that so many young developers create games to fill a void in their lives and hang their self worth on the success of their projects, leading to half baked new features taking priority over bug fixes and gameplay balancing, or a prickly and dismissive attitude towards the community at large.As you can see, these two problems feed into and magnify each other, and the more community involvement and popularity a game has the worse it gets.It's not all doom and gloom as some of these things are improving, we're moving towards an account based, limited license, phone home on launch system for combating piracy, and some people are also running contests or just straight up paying for those who can't afford popular new titles.We're cracking down on clones, and we still have a consistent but slow stream of higher quality projects from established developers, and smaller, less popular games receiving highly positive/enthusiastic feedback.3. Aside from the typical pissing contests that have been raging on the internet for years now, I think most of us actually have a problem with the user end limitations of developing for a specific OS.I understand you might have only been using OS choice as an annolog for language choice, but it's a real problem when people develop for IOS and not Android for instance because we already have so few audio games to begin with, and allot of people can't afford a reasonably new IPhone without selling their soul to the devel via a contract, and even then only in more developed countries.And now that the Somethinelse titles, Sixth Sense, and Storm8 games are gone, it's a problem when games are only developed for the Android, too.As for coding language, well, blind people as a rule just don't have gaming rigs outside of a handful of us, not even five year old ones. So if a game requires a certain version of Direct X or some special
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Great post, I love your unique insight and the way you broke down the various different outlooks made it easy to follow. I'm honored that we have you as a member of our forum.However I do have a few points to bring up.And I too am a man of many words, so buckle in. 1. Players not getting mad at BGT, aside from the virus problem for less savvy computer users or those forced into using inaccessible AV software, it's very much true that no one really cares. However the exception lies in network heavy realtime games like FPS's and Side Scrolling PVP titles, because only Sam and Mason have managed to make the BGT network object actually work for them at this point and that took a long, painful time.Even after that we still can't have proper automatic weapons or extra elements like dynamic shell drops, positional bullet zings/impacts ETC because with distance and firing rate,e specially with a larger server load (more than like 6 people) things start to slow to a crawl from the players point of view.It takes allot more effort to get BGT to behave in those situations, and many new coders don't have the experience to really get their hands dirty and figure it out, because it takes allot of hacking and hours upon hours of frustrating trial and error which cut into school and personal time, leading many of them to burn out.Even with that, I believe Sam's network code is still pretty inefficient so he has to shell out for a much more powerful VPS than other games with the same amount of players, and he doesn't even have to deal with visual stutters. This makes a consistent stream of donations a necessity for him, which means catering to the players willing to pay, leading to imbalance.As players I think we use BGT problems as a scapegoat to avoid laying the blame at the feet of inexperienced coders, and the developers are happy to follow along. But that said, every experienced coder I've seen try out BGT is horrified by networking with it and refuses to touch it.2. The reasonable among us don't compare audio games directly to mainstream triple A titles outside of proving a point, but instead to mainstream Indi ones, so while your observations are still good ones, your missing the mark a bit.Our community is full of people with depression/anxiety and social problems, and that's not a dig that's just the truth. The large majority of us are early teens to early 20s so you can add emotional immaturity into that mix, and now our problems with forming teams, code theft, piracy, project management over time, community entitlement, and developer PR start to make allot more sense.I believe the small market issue is secondary to this, with the bigger issue being a deep sense of envy and discontent around mainstream games, which tends to manifest in a demanding and hard to please audience who often say things without considering the impact on the developer's confedense, and the fact that so many young developers create games to fill a void in their lives and hang their self worth on the success of their projects, leading to half baked new features taking priority over bug fixes and gameplay balancing, or a prickly and dismissive attitude towards the community at large.As you can see, these two problems feed into and magnify each other, and the more community involvement and popularity a game has the worse it gets.It's not all doom and gloom as some of these things are improving, we're moving towards an account based, limited license, phone home on launch system for anti piracy, we're cracking down on clones, and we still have a consistent but slow stream of higher quality projects from established developers, and smaller, less popular games receiving highly positive/enthusiastic feedback.3. Aside from the typical pissing contests that have been raging on the internet for years now, I think most of us actually have a problem with the user end limitations of developing for a specific OS.I understand you might have only been using OS choice as an annolog for language choice, but it's a real problem when people develop for IOS and not Android for instance because we already have so few audio games to begin with, and allot of people can't afford a reasonably new IPhone without selling their soul to the devel via a contract, and even then only in more developed countries.And now that the Somethinelse titles, Sixth Sense, and Storm8 games are gone, it's a problem when games are only developed for the Android, too.As for coding language, well, blind people as a rule just don't have gaming rigs outside of a handful of us, not even five year old ones. So if a game requires a certain version of Direct X or some special audio driver that the average somewhat out of date mid to high end business laptop doesn't support or something because you had no choice but to use that library as the developer, your going to have allot of users that can't run your game.But that's just my take on it, I'm
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus If I could afford to do so, I'd say this should be posted on Reddit, so I can upvote it again and maybe give it Gold. But I'm too poor to gild things on Reddit or support people on Patrion, so no need to bother.I have more important things to spend my money on, like electricity, food, and registering Manamon. But had I disposable income!You know what really sucks? I'd have to make an unreasonably large extension to any project budget I might enact, and spend the extra on things seemingly unrelated to the project, on the grounds that I only seem able to work on these things within a year or so of the last time I "had a life", whatever that means. So... that's effed up, yo. Get someone less disastrous to make Grand Theft Audio: Blindcraft Overhear. ... Hehehehe Grand Theft Audio could be set in faximiles of the cities where NFB centers are located. I'm uneasy with this solely because I know people would want to simulate violence against actual people, or thinly-veiled analogs, but GTA needs a subtitle for location, and Grand Theft Audio (and probably the training centers thread) made those the first places not in California to come to mind. ... Crap, I'd actually feel kinda terrible playing a game based on roving Ruston to steal cars or whatever. ... Maybe steal dogs. Because that's not an annoying stereotype, right? Blind criminals hijacking dogs, training them with certain specialties (you could have dogs good at recognizing witnesses or cops, dogs good at luring other dogs to your unmarked white cane, dogs trained to counter dogs trained to sniff out contraband ... this is starting to sound kinda good, actually. Like a messed up cross between GTA and Pokemon. What was this post about, again?)Feh, I was probably not going to post this abominable reply, but the Grand Theft Audio: Pokedog concept is just too amusing to not. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/411855/#p411855 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Origine via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus I read the entire thread and there are some things I'd like to address. Being concise has never been my trademark so be warned.First of all, remember that the game makers are not necessarily developers. One might have the required creativity and originality to make amazing games, but lack the know-how and skills to concretize it. The other way around, one might be a proficient developer in multiple languages, know how to optimize L1 and L2 cache, but have no inspiration nor game design knowledge. Now one could have both and thus be total rockstars. It's just like how an engineer will make a app that works wonderfully but no one will be able to use it because the user experience is terrible (it's an analogy of course, not an absolute and generalizable truth, you get the idea).So what do we have? Some brilliant people with exciting ideas not being able to develop games, and developers developing ok games. It's asymetric, because one produces average quality content while the other one could produce quality content. Now this is a gaming community, an audio gaming community and we all want the same thing: good games. One of the ways to have better games is to simplify the game creation itself which is just the application of an idea. The real fun is in the idea, not really the implementation to certain extent. Now I don't know BGT, but it seems to me it was an effort made years ago towards this direction.Ok, let's imagine some guy makes a game with BGT. The question is, should that person have used BGT ? It's hard to give one answer to this question as I wear multiple hats. So I'll answer for every hat:As a player, I don't care. What I care is if the game is fun or not. If the game is fun, then I'd say yes, because perhaps the game wouldn't have existed without BGT. If the game is not fun, then I'd think it's either the game is not my style or the guy who made the game didn't have a great idea. However, it would be extremely unlikely that I would blame the language in which he wrote the game. The virus flaging is annoying.As a developer, I'd say no. I would recommend C# as I love this language and it has accessible tool chain to develop, debug, compile, publish, profile, namely Visual Studio. I wouldn't recommend BGT because there is not a large community around it, because there hasn't been updates in a long time, because it has a limited feature set.As a former Ubisoft engine developer, it would be impossible to write a game like Assassin's Creed in BGT. In fact, I'd argue it would be impossible to write such a game in Python. It's all written in C++, except for shaders, tools and some assembly optimizations. This is because you have to use all the available resources of a system and to do that you need to be able to control how it's compiled on a specific target. You also cannot afford interpretation costs of scripting languages. I also wanna quickly address something I read about crrappy code written. In the gaming industry, it's done all the time. They do hacks, patches, work arounds, as long as it works and it's efficient. When it's getting closer and closer to a release, this gets even worse. Why is that ? Because all the game code is throwable. You heard me right, they will throw away all the game code, because they cannot reuse any of it for another game. All they can reuse is the game engine. So it doesn't matter if the game specific code is crappy or patched, the only thing that matters is how long did it take to write including the cost of testing and maintaining that code in the release cycle. It's all about money and the quicker you produce code that is good enough, the best return on investment you get.Finally, and this is the most important hat, as Origine, as a human, it's not of my frickin business. Who am I to tell someone that the game he wrote, must it be good or not whould or shouldn't have been written in BGT ? People do what they want and that's it. I say that because it's not only related to BGT. Whether it's NVDA versus JAWS, C# versus Python versus BGT versus C++, audio games versus mainstream games, Windows versus Linux versus MAC OS, if one uses something that satisfies all of its needs, then there's no point on trying to make that person change because this is better than that. I used to be like that when I was younger. I would try to convince iOS users that Android was the best and that they should switch. No matter the arguments, it doesn't matter if they like iOS the way it is. Trust me, when you start to realize this, everything starts to be cooler. I started to like Apple products, I don't own any of their products, but I have to admit they have solid designs, they are cool and feel somewhat premium. Apple are excellent at marketing (well, less recently, but they were truely amazing at that). You will start to see value in everything, ask yourself why they are using that and not something else ? Why is it so important that they change
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-13
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : TheTrueSwampGamer via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus ok, so i get that its updates are infreequent, but dang this thing was updated in what, 2015 or even earlier? yeah, no. that aint infrequent. thats discontinued for yah mate. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/411511/#p411511 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-13
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : philip_bennefall via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Hi all,I just found this topic and so figured I would post a reply to clear some things up.There has in fact been some development happening on BGT on and off for the last few years, but I have not had the time or interest to package it all together and make a public release. This includes writing documentation, fixing some known bugs in the new features, etc. Basically, Aaron (the owner of VGStorm) and I have been collaborating for a number of years. I was involved in the development of both Psycho Strike and The Gate, which is why I added Elias support in the first place (see below).Some people have also paid for features and have then been given special versions so that they can use that particular feature, which is nothing out of the ordinary. It is very common to have private patches intended for a particular company that are not released to the public. I am free to release these updates if and when I choose to do so, and I might at some point, but I am under no obligation whatsoever to do so - especially given that BGT is freeware.Years ago I implemented a wrapper for Elias version 1, which is now way out of date as we're currently on Elias version 3.1. This is why those BGT games do not work on Windows XP, because Elias was being linked with a technique that locates the dll automatically when it is needed but which does not require the dll to be present if it is not used. This is a new technique which, if my guess is correct, does not work on Windows XP as I believe it was introduced in more recent versions of Visual Studio.As for the future of the project, I don't honestly know. I don't really have a lot of interest in it anymore and have mainly been doing work on it in response to small freelance contracts for specific features, hence the special versions as I mentioned above. I could technically make a public release, but I'm not really that interested in spending the time required to do so at the moment. Especially because I am in agreement with most of you here that it is far better to use something mainstream if you want to push the boundaries of what can be done with audio games. BGT was good for what it was intended to do when I began writing it 11 years ago. Nowadays there are many more resources available and I would advise people to move away from it at the earliest opportunity. By all means use it if you know that you will only target Windows, but make sure you are aware of its strenghths and limitations before you decide.HopefullyI have cleared up some of the confusion.Kind regards,Philip Bennefall URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/411436/#p411436 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus It won't expand or collapse indents though I don't think. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/411178/#p411178 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-11
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : The Dwarfer via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus There is the indent nav add-on for NVDA. It's apparently supposed to do those things. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/411142/#p411142 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Funnily enough, the two courses I took regarding coding (which taught me GML and the basics of Java, respectively) hammered the importance of indentation. It just makes cleaner code in general, particularly on the visual side of things...so if I for some reason decided to learn a language, indenting would come naturally to me. I feel this is a skill that virtually anyone could try and work on, since I don't see many/any real downsides. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/411042/#p411042 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-10
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Hmm, the only thing that makes a text editor in BGT ambitious is that it doesn't come with a GUI library, so you have to write one yourself. Which, as it turns out, is the work of a weekend. Friday afternoon to get it working, Saturday to fix the bugs and features you missed, Sunday to do the same for whoever you corner on Skype/Teamtalk.I find it interesting that people insist that sound is easy with these other libraries. It's so easy, in fact, that I still haven't gotten any of them to work.Someone did write BGT wrappers for Bass and Fmodex, so I suppose just doing that with ctypes should work. Judging by the mile-long tracebacks pyfmodex generates, it's bound to be easier that way.Looking at examples, Visual / VPython is astoundingly simple, as 3d graphics go. So, naturally, I can't get it to work, either. Probably something to do with screwing up the camra? It's not made for hyper realistic graphics, though. But no one codes that from scratch, since they can see to use Unity / Unreal / various other programs that turn it into a drag-and-drop affair, enabling colleges to offer game design courses that do not require any programming. ... I'ma headbutt the floor until the world starts making sense. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/411018/#p411018 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Ride is a great concept, but the execution leaves a bit to be desired. It's a talking text editor that lets you navigate indent code accessibly by expanding and colapsoing indents (ctrl+alt+right to expand, left to collapse.) Problem is I think it was made in BGT, and while for fun games with it aren't much of a problem, trying to make a text editor in it is, well, a bit too ambitious for the engine to handle. Notpad Plus Plus is open source so someone could easily put indent nav in there too. Even with NVDA indent navigation beeps, part of the point of indents is to make the code easier to navigate because sighted people can zero in on a particular section, or scroll the major sections of code without looking at each line. Having expand/collapse for indents gives a blind person that same advantage, I just think the actual text editor would have more potential if it were either written in another language, or if it were a Notepad Plus Plus respin. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410989/#p410989 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-10
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : The Dwarfer via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Yeah... Idle (the Python GUI) is completely inaccessible. I couldn't do anything more useful than peruse the menu bar, and view the window title. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410964/#p410964 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @88, ah, but there is always the command-line. The accessibility issue was JAWS-specific. WinPython, if I'm not mistaken, is accessible, or at least was last time I tested it. And notepad2/notepad++ are alternatives. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410961/#p410961 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus And it's not just the sound issue. There's also the issue of making sure that whatever editor/compiler/dev tools for the language you choose is accessible to you with your screen reader. For example, if I remember correctly, Unity is inaccessible to us completely, and I just saw a post on Python in the dev room talking about issues with accessibility there as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410957/#p410957 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus I don't really understand how playing sound in 3D is "so complicated". FmOD, Wwise, and so on provide much easier methods than using the raw system APIs or OpenAL. Sound has gotten much easier. Graphics, on the other hand... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410949/#p410949 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Which is my exact point. Let's say someone has the desire to make a game as a hobby, just because. Sure, they've got the intellectual ability to learn a programming language. But for a game that's not complex, one that's not going to involve complex maps with all sorts of layered things, hundreds of items, enemies, and other stuff, I can see the appeal of using BGT for no other reason than not having to deal with all the fucking ridiculous bullshit just to play sound, let alone getting it to move and the like. The person wants to make a game as a hobby, they aren't doing it for profit. So rather than stressing themselves out banging their head against the wall while trying to get a few sounds to play correctly to the point that they lose the enjoyment of the project, they choose to use BGT, since the game isn't a complex one. I'm currently developing a game, and am doing so in BGT, and yes, I've considered porting the code to a different language, but for the amount of complexity involved, it's not worth the headache of sound management to me. I know of several solid games that were created with BGT, so this theory that absolutely nothing worth anything can be developed with it is false. Games with ultra complex sound schemes, world maps, enemy and item behaviors, etc., should be done in another language, I agree. But for a game that doesn't require that, I see no problem with someone creating it in BGT, and I won't assume that just because a game was made with BGT, it will be nothing more than a total failure or a piece of detritus. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410942/#p410942 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Which is my exact point. Let's say someone has the desire to make a game as a hobby, just because. Sure, they've got the intellectual ability to learn a programming language. But for a game that's not complex, one that's not going to involve complex maps with all sorts of layered things, hundreds of items, enemies, and other stuff, I can see the appeal of using BGT for no other reason than not having to deal with all the fucking ridiculous bullshit just to play sound, let alone getting it to move and the like. The person wants to make a game as a hobby, they aren't doing it for profit. So rather than stressing themselves out banging their head against the wall while trying to get a few sounds to play correctly to the point that they lose the enjoyment of the project, they choose to use BGT, since the game isn't a complex one. I'm currently developing a game, and am doing so in BGT, and yes, I've considered porting the code to a different language, but for the amount of complexity involved, it's not worth the headache of sound management to me. I know of several solid games that were created with BGT, so this theory tthat absolutely nothing worth anything can be developed with it is false. Games with ultra complex sound schemes, world maps, enemy and item behaviors, etc., should be done in another language, I agree. But for a game that doesn't require that, I see no problem with someone creating it in BGT, and I won't assume that just because a game was made with BGT, it will be nothing more than a total failure or a piece of detritus. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410942/#p410942 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-10
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : ironcross32 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus BGT is only really a gateway into learning about BGT. Sure you learn programming concepts you can take with you, but look at the percentage of people who leave BGT versus those who always make BGT and swear up and down by the thing until their game breaks a boundary that the engine has in a bad way. Now you're looking to eek every last bit of performance out of it because now your game is running poorly. Mainly laggy network games. Look you can't even use dictionaries, they're so freaking slow. Python dictionaries make BGT dictionaries look like decrpit old granny, but not a nice old granny who bakes you fresh cookies, a mean old granny who beats you with her cane.I actually think there's some delayed shock with it. Let's say you realize you want to move on to bigger and better things, so you start looking into python. OK you never indented your code, that's weird now, and now you're forced to, so it's a frustration, you need to figure out how to deal with that, and despite having nvda indent reporting by tones option turned on, I still end up screwing up indents and have to fix them, it just makes it easier. OK, but you get that down, now tutorials are talking about stuff you can do on the console, and it's like OK, and you look at it and it's close enough. You see that you don't need to put a variable's data type before the variable, python has no problem with things like a = 5 b = 3.25 c = "cat". Before I draw this out too far, you realize that there are a lot of similarities, the syntax is different, but you hit a hard wall when you get into packages, dependencies, working with libraries, and how actually difficult it can be just to play a sound with some libs where you have to set up streams and stuff like that.I feel that BGT gives you this warm cuddly feeling about how programming is, then when you think you're a BGT baller, you go out into the real world and it's like holy crap, this is.. fw. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410846/#p410846 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @JLove,With consoles not being accessible at first, blind people playing games was still somehow a myth to major game companies. With the xbox having built-in accessibility, and it becoming increasingly easier for developers to obtain the sdk's, that has certainly started the ball rolling on integrating accessibility, especially for Indie devs. But many franchises are still going highly successful, and most (with the exception of EA) think, again, why satisfy a handful and not get a return on investment? Then again, EA's games are quite obviously franchises in and of themselves, but the accessible games have been written from the ground up to incorporate accessibility features. If you think it isn't much to just add it in, think of the fact that just a simple city name change for a Rockstar game required hundreds of code adjustments, and hours of extra work for the voiceovers on modifying cutscenes, just for one bloody name change. It is grueling. Especially given the fact people apparently want more cinematic games with 4k/8k/12k/400k whatever ultra-hd graphics, and scenes so detailed that if you miss them you've missed a crucial part in the game. It's like the game can't exist on its own without the mini-movie. Consumer expectations have gotten obscenely high. This is why Indie developers can focus on whatever the hell they want, because they aren't corporate entities who have to focus on the bottom line. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410817/#p410817 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus I actually want to chime in on the BGT thing in particular here.So okay. We get that it's not the most complex language, and that it's got limitations. But apparently it's friendly for building stuff (I don't know firsthand, mind you). But it's been used to make some decent and solid games, and I would think that for certain styles of games, BGT would be perfectly serviceable. Why can we not accept it as a niche tool and just mov on? Why all the fire-spewing about how people have to give it up and join the mainstream? We are not mainstream. Integration with the mainstream is good, and I welcome the chance to do more of that, but this doesn't mean we can't have games that are designed for us specifically, and if doing so means we sometimes use tools that are easier to use because it's either that or we don't get any such games...I fail to see the issue here.No one is forcing any particular dev to use BGT, so the way I see it, let those choosing to do so continue doing as they wish. Either their games will be hamstrung and will fail, or they'll succeed. If they succeed, awesome. If they don't, and if BGT is somehow behind the game's failure, then hopefully they'll learn or be encouraged to branch out. It also needs to be said that some people do not necessarily want full integration wit the mainstream, either due to simpls straight-up preference, personal bias, cognitive concerns or some level of all three. Please remember that at its core, gaming is a hobby. It is something to do for fun. Everyone has a threshold beyond which all the jumping through hoops is going to feel like busywork and will make the hobby stop feeling worthwhile. I used to be this way for JGT and Japanese audio games, and I'm so glad I softened my stance. And some people may not feel it's worth navigating Steam, or getting a PS4, or only knowing like 21% of a game; these people should absolutely not be shamed because they prefer games they fully understand and can relate to. When we get to a point where many games are accessible and playable both, then fine. But until then, I think there are several people in this thread - specifically not naming names here - who probably ought to get over the conceit that mainstream is just the default best way to go. Personally, if I have to fiddle with menus for ten minutes and use guides just to get a game running, and even then am only getting a tiny sliver of playability from it (or get to a point partway through and get utterly stonewalled, or need sighted help half the time), then that's not worth it. Give me something I want to play, and don't shame me for not putting in hours of work for a hobby. I have better things to do than wrangle with technology for something which is, as far as time expenditure, nothing better than a black hole. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410791/#p410791 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @81, DirectX isn't the only sound engine out there in C++ though. A lot of audio libraries exist (OpenAL, FMOD, Wwise, BASS, ...) simplify (or complexify) the problem and make your job easier or harder. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410749/#p410749 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus So, I guess my question is, I understand why a big company wouldn't want to redo a game that they already completed to add accessibility features. However, I do not see the reason for not just incorporating accessibility from day 1? If you start from day 1 and the first line of code, then it shouldn't be a big deal.As for the whole BGT/other language debate, yeah, BGT definitely has some limitations, and for a game that's ultra complex, I'd say it should be written in another language. But it does allow people who never thought they could code a game to do so, and it can be a gateway for them to enter the world of programming and learn other languages. Also, for a game that's not brimming with complexity, it does make aspects easier. For example, one thing I do like about BGT is the sound pool. It would be nice if it could handle 3d sound, yeah, but for some reason Philip decided not to allow that, unless that was beyond his control and is limited by Angelscript. That being said, the ease of manipulation of 2d is nice. To implement, modify, adjust, or otherwise manipulate sound in other languages can be a nightmare. Take C++, for example. Sound and DirectX in C++. Fucking forget it. A colossal headache and a ton of bullshit. Not sure how python handles it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410748/#p410748 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus So, I guess my question is, I understand why a big company wouldn't want to redo a game that they already completed to add accessibility features. However, I do not see the reason for not just incorporating accessibility from day 1? If you start from day 1 and the first line of code, then it shouldn't be a big deal.As for the whole BGT/other language debate, yeah, BGT definitely has some limitations, and for a game that's ultra complex, I'd say it should be written in another language. But for a game that's not brimming with complexity, it does make aspects easier. For example, one thing I do like about BGT is the sound pool. It would be nice if it could handle 3d sound, yeah, but for some reason Philip decided not to allow that, unless that was beyond his control and is limited by Angelscript. That being said, the ease of manipulation of 2d is nice. To implement, modify, adjust, or otherwise manipulate sound in other languages can be a nightmare. Take C++, for example. Sound and DirectX in C++. Fucking forget it. A colossal headache and a ton of bullshit. Not sure how python handles it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410748/#p410748 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-07
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : CAE_Jones via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus @77: Let me introduce you to the wonderful world of Keto Cookies... :twisted: URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410179/#p410179 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-07
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : ironcross32 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus @Ethin you make me look like a saint in comparison with your behavior. You also need to learn that you can't approach every argument like it's a debate, and you shouldn't argue with fanatics. The only time you should argue with someone is if you see the possibility to change their mind. So one guy might be like I love BGT, it's the best programming language ever designed and it does everything I want and need. You could come up with every possible bit of evidence to disprove those statements and it would make no difference, then you're the one who's wasting time. You also need to realize that you can't win every argument. You have this like orgasmic love for debate but when you feel you're coming out on the bottom, your points become less and less logical, and more and more circular.It's just not worth it to get all bothered about shit like that. The whole reason I got bothered about the WEbL thing which lead to my ban was not because it necessarily affected me, but affected a whole group of people, and the guy just would not stop. I acknowledge that I didn't handle that correctly, but thinking back, I usually can think of ways to so something differently, in this particular case, I can't. I literally know of no other way to get him to stop and that probably didn't do it either, so it was probably best left alone. But yeah it does bother me when someone perpetuates stereotypes about us, and that person being among us makes it even worse. its like shit, we have so many misconceptions and stereotypes floating around, some of which of the stereotypes are quite true for some people, but do we really need to be pushing that image. The stuff you get bothered about is trivial, and I'm sure some of mine is too.Sorressean, I just , sometimes I paint an image of him in my mind on the front of a punching bag and just go at it. I don't like the way he talks to people, especially about code, but he was right in this instance.Also it's worth trying to evaluate where you stand on this forum, a lot of people probably hate you, but getting to know you off forum, you're actually a good guy, a bit misguided at times, but you've changed quite a bit from your 2013 days. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410156/#p410156 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-07
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : keithwipf1 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Hmm, I actually posted my idea to help with this a bit in the developer room, integrating I mean.https://forum.audiogames.net/topic/2753 … s-with-it/ URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410154/#p410154 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-07
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Fuck I'm so glad cookies aren't made of cheese. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410137/#p410137 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @75, thank you for that, I will temper my temper in future, pun intended. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410083/#p410083 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @Soressean I take your point. You had no way of knowing that we were eventually going to step in and say something, so you decided to do it yourself, as it were. Future reference though, you can probably assume that this sort of abuse won't just be left to stand. it's not conducive to a friendly forum. Basically, let us try and do the job we've got. Cautions do not accumulate, by the way, so it's more like saying "heads up" than actually any form of punishment.@Ethin I actually don't have a ton of sympathy for your last couple of posts, because like it or not, Soressean's got a point. You will fault other people for their language and then use inflammatory language to get your points across (you've done it to me several times, and eventually I just learned not to engage you). And the thing is, you can't claim ignorance anymore. You know you get hot-tempered sometimes, and you keep on doing it. This isn't new. This isn't the first time another user decided to single you out, either. This is why my last message said I'm looking for results.But I'm going to show you an example of a way you might be better able to manage situations from here on out. Just work with me for a sec.Person1: I don't see how you don't understand this. Cookies are obviously made out of cheese. If you don't know that, I don't know what else to tell you. it's clear to just about everybody. Made of cheese. Now can we move on?(now obviously this is a very silly comment, and has a combative style to it, a style you tend to launch yourself at whenever you see it. So instead of doing what you normally do, try an approach more like this.)I don't get how you can go around saying cookies are made of cheese. And I don't really appreciate being spoken to that way. Here's some proof that cookies are obviously not made of cheese.(Rather than, say, calling the person or their statements idiotic or whatever.)There's just no need for name-calling. You can absolutely destroy someone's point or their credibility without resorting to a single harsh word if you know how. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410079/#p410079 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : mahdi-abedi via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus very good discaution! nice! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410061/#p410061 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @72, some could probably argue (quite understandably) that you heap the same abuse on me when you post and its directed towards me. The only thing that's different is that you don't use the same language I do. Like I said earlier, whether your tired of what I do is irrelevant; if you want to appear as better than me, you need to be less rude than I am and show that you are better than I am. Posting the way you currently do and appearing much ruder than even I am only makes you look worse than I am, truth be damned. As I said previously (without the harsh language), before you complain (though I'd categorize it as wining) about my faults and issues, you should consider yours, and wonder if you truly are better than me. Your a good person to talk to when its not when its on the subject of coding or technology, but as soon as the topic changes to such things, you immediately become even worse than me. A friend once said that I "raise the tension to 11", to which I replied that you raised it to 13. So, really, who's better? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410052/#p410052 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @72, some could probably argue (quite understandably) that you heap the same abuse on me when you post and its directed towards me. The only thing that's different is that you don't use the same language I do. Like I said earlier, whether your tired of what I do is irrelevant; if you want to appear as better than me, you need to be less rude than I am and show that you are better than I am. Posting the way you currently do and appearing much ruder than even I am only makes you look worse than I am, truth be damned. As I said previously (without the harsh language), before you complain (though I'd categorize it as wining) about my faults and issues, you should consider yours, and wonder if you truly are better than me. Your a good person to talk to when its not when its on the subject of coding or technology, but as soon as the topic changes to such things, you immediately become even worse than me. A friend once said that I "raise the tension to 11., to which I replied that you raised it to 13. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410052/#p410052 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @72, some could probably argue (quite understandably) that you heap the same abuse on me when you post and its directed towards me. The only thing that's different is that you don't use the same language I do. Like I said earlier, whether your tired of what I do is irrelevant; if you want to appear as better than me, you need to be less rude than I am and show that you are better than I am. Posting the way you currently do and appearing much ruder than even I am only makes you look worse than I am, truth be damned. As I said previously (without the harsh language), before you complain (though I'd categorize it as wining) about my faults and issues, you should consider yours, and wonder if you truly are better than me. Your a good person to talk to when its not when its on the subject of coding or technology, but as soon as the topic changes to such things, you immediately become even worse than me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410052/#p410052 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @72, some could probably argue (quite understandably) that you heap the same abuse on me when you post and its directed towards me. The only thing that's different is that you don't use the same language I do. Like I said earlier, whether your tired of what I do is irrelevant; if you want to appear as better than me, you need to be less rude than I am and show that you are better than I am. Posting the way you currently do and appearing much ruder than even I am only makes you look worse than I am, truth be damned. As I said prior (without the hash language), before you complain (though I'd categorize it as wining) about my faults and issues, you should consider yours, and wonder if you truly are better than me. Your a good person to talk to when its not when its on the subject of coding or technology, but as soon as the topic changes to such things, you immediately become even worse than me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410052/#p410052 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @72, some could probably argue (quite understandably) that you heap the same abuse on me when you post and its directed towards me. The only thing that's different is that you don't use the same language I do. Like I said earlier, whether your tired of what I do is irrelevant; if you want to appear as better than me, you need to be less rude than I am and show that you are better than I am. Posting the way you currently do and appearing much ruder than even I am only makes you look worse than I am, truth be damned. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410052/#p410052 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @72, some could probably argue (quite understandably) that you heap the same abuse on me when you post and its directed towards me. The only thing that's different is that you don't use the same language I do. Like I said earlier, whether your tired of what I do is irrelevant; if you want to appear as better than am, you need to be less rude than I am and show that you are better than I am. Posting the way you currently do and appearing much ruder than even I am only makes you look worse than I am, truth be damned. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410052/#p410052 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : sorressean via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus @Jayde/moderation: I'm not going to dispute my caution. I'm really really over him hulking out and screaming at people, and "retarded bullshit" wasn't the first time in this thread. If by turning up the heat you mean I called him down for some of the things he was saying after the fact, I was just now getting to and reading through this thread (and the heat was turned up, if you will and then died down when people didn't respond to the abuse above and then below). I'm mostly just fed up with the amount of abuse he heaps on people who don't deserve it, and when someone responds and says something, no matter how they approach it he doubles down on the abuse and accuses people of targetting him. Many of these people don't know a lot, and many of them don't speak or write English as a first language. Most of them just want to learn, and there are so many ways to teach (or just to not teach, if you do indeed think that people are idiots) rather than just screaming because they don't know what someone thinks they should know. I will attempt to be more civil in my responses, but I'm not particularly sure where that's going to get us. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410041/#p410041 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @70, I know. And I know, you can get hot under the collar, we all can. Its hard for me to remain calm when I'm first almost literally insulted and then someone acts like a dick in an effort to "be the good guy" to add insult to injury. And yes, I was a jerk earlier in this topic, but I did apologize about my behavior before 55 but I still feel that, in a way, 54 was asking for it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410037/#p410037 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @70, I know. And I know, you can get hot under the collar, we all can. Its hard for me to remain calm when I'm first almost literally insulted and then someone acts like a dick in an effort to "be the good guy" to add insult to injury. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410037/#p410037 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus I get that, and it's good that you recognize this trait, but at this point I'm kind of looking for results, not just recognition. You've said many times that you will change, or try to work on it, and then you're good for a little while, and then it all flares up again. So that's why you got a warning while the other dude got a caution. If this had been a rare occurrence or your first ever situation, different story. Just try and work a little harder on this. Believe me, I'm the last person to say that people shouldn't get hot under the collar. I have a temper, too. I've just learned to control it a bit, that's all.And no, I'm not trying to moralize excessively either. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410034/#p410034 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @68, I know, I tend to do that. And I try to remain calm. But its very easy to get caught up in the heat of... debate, I guess... and I tend to lose control sometimes (which doesn't do me much credit). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410033/#p410033 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Moderation:Ethin, consider this an official warning. You have a tendency of becoming inflammatory when things don't suit you, and the "retarded bullshit" statement is an excellent example of this. If I had been here closer to the time when it was made, I'd have probably issued a caution and called it good. You have a warning instead, however, because you've since decided to do what you usually do, and double down on your choice of language. Ask yourself this: how is it that I can tear someone's arguments apart or disagree with them without calling them (or their ideas) stupid or retarded or bullshit, but you seemingly can't? Why is that, do you think? In any case, a warning. Please try and cool your jets a bit.Sorressean: while I agree with about 95% of what you're saying, Ethin makes a good point in that things were relatively cool before you turned up the heat again. I'm issuing a caution for this. You could've stopped short of where you did and still got your point across, and the only reason it's not a warning is because in my experience at least, this is rairly rare for you. A caution (with no immediate consequence) may cause you to reflect enough to realize how better to get your points across in future, while Ethin is sort of infamous for his temper.The TL>DR version is this: everybody play nice. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410029/#p410029 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @66, I know, right? Its incredibly to ask. It seems like blind advocate organizations have forgotten a word called 'civility'. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410028/#p410028 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Yeah true. Well, the NFB doesn't apply to me because I am totally not in the US, but I due read their resolutions sometimes and oh boy, no wonder companys are not doing much for accessibility. The way it sounds to me is that they are going like do it now! instead of explaining the problem, giving suggestions and asking nicely if it could be changed ... it is so easy.Greetings Moritz. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410025/#p410025 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @64, knowing the NFB and their nasty habit of digging their nose into every possible thing and making it accessible ASAP, they probably already do but haven't done anything because they don't have the money to topple valve in court. And even if they did I doubt they'd win. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410024/#p410024 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Yeah, you also can't force push valve to do any accessibility improovments, some people due prefer the jack hammer method and then wonder why nothing is done for them.Let's hope the NFB doesn't know about steam.Greetings moritz. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410023/#p410023 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @61, considering that no one on this thread has been as dickish as you've been and things were (I hoped anyway)starting to cool off after 56, and then you came inn and heated stuff back up to level 15... yeah, you should look at yourself before bitching about other peoples' problems. It was "retarded bullshit" to me because of the insulting tone that literally dripped from it and the offensive way it was written. Whether you like me or not is irrelevant. Whether you are over what I do or not is irrelevant. You don't act worse than the person your targeting and hope to 'look the good guy'. I'd think you'd know that but hey... And yes, I know you can apply that to me, but right now we're talking about you and not me.@62, yeah, I know, the outrage that's raised over Steam's "un-accessibility" annoys me sometime, especially when I and several friends are perfectly capable of using it with OCR and are currently content with the way things are right now. They'll get better when they get better but you can't rush this kind of ting. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410013/#p410013 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @61, considering that no one on this thread has been as dickish as you've been and things were (I hoped anyway)starting to cool off after 56, and then you came inn and heated stuff back up to level 15... yeah, you should look at yourself before bitching about other peoples' problems. It was "retarded bullshit" to me because of the insulting tone that literally dripped from it and the offensive way it was written. Whether you like me or not is irrelevant. Whether you are over what I do or not is irrelevant. You don't act worse than the person your targeting and hope to 'look the good guy'. I'd think you'd know that but hey... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410013/#p410013 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @60 well, it is not that hard to grasp when you play mainstream games yourself and have a lot of contact with sighted people, which is not true for all of the blind people around here I would suppose. I am happy that there are accessible mainstream games out there, most of the new players might not remember this but when I started gaming, there weren't fancy things like OCR and screen readers on PS2 and what not, you had to remember all the menus that you wanted to know about and use, or in certain wii games remember where which option on the game menus was because the game wouldn't support navigation via the d-pad and only would use pointing the controler at a certain option which you wanted to activate.Something I forgot in my last post also is that a lot of blind people expect their product to be fully accessible, and are stubborn when it is not fully accessible.take steam for example. It can be done totally fine with object nav of NVDA, if people would finally pull their ass together and sit down more than 30 seconds to experiment with a program they potentially want to use. Sorry to break it to ya, but not everything is fully accessible, if you have to use workarounds or different methods of navigation, go and use them and stop whining already.Greetings Moritz. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410011/#p410011 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @59, not even going to bother responding. I've already apologized for the PE stuff, your not worth my time. Cool off, I don't see anyone else on this topic acting as dickish as you are.@57, I like that one. At least someone basically understands what I'm getting at. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410008/#p410008 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : sorressean via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus No, you really didn't appologise for calling someone's response "retarded bullshit." Even if you had, I'm a little over you throwing a raging fit every time someone disagrees with you, then tearfully saying sorry when someone calls you down for it. Perhaps you should go back to trying to create the next best multithreaded sqlite based MOO... Oh wait, you can't. I guess you're stuck here trying to be superior to everyone else. Enjoy. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410010/#p410010 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @59, not even going to bother responding. I've already apologized, your not worth my time.@57, I like that one. At least someone basically understands what I'm getting at. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410008/#p410008 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : sorressean via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus It appears to me that someone has resorted to their old ways, accusations and claims. So buckle up folks, because I'm about to get some crayons out to do some xplaining. The only thing I can promise at the end is the likelyhood of salty tears and another tantrum.post #9: The fact that something hasn't been updated in 8 years does not mean that it won't be updated. He could get bored, he apparently handed it to someone last I spoke to him. There are all kinds of ways that BGT could get updates, so don't just assume t hat it won't until there's evidence to support that. This doesn't mean that you should throw all your eggs in the BGT basket, just that you shouldn't be making such claims.post #19: This is where you start screaming that the person is making themselves look like an idiot and throwing insults around. You know, the ones you always accuse others of targetting you with. A language is a language, and there's no need what so ever to comply with the sighted realm and make games in python and c++ simply because they do. I have thoughts on BGT, but I'll get to them when someone who has taken the time to write a grown-up post makes their comments heard. PS: this is coming, hold on to your socks.#22: the PE size being different certainly does prove something, but you attack this later, so I'm just going to stick with saying screaming someone is wrong is yet again wrong, and I'll happily disprove everything later, to add to what Carter has already done and said.#38: Wowee, finally a post with some substance. I like this, we should talk. I don't really mind BGT in that people write things in it. I have multiple issues which really aren't issues in and of themselves with BGT in general.1) This virus flag is kind of annoying and makes it really really hard to run in a lot of places. It will pretty much kill your ability to widely distribute, and I've seen all kinds of people turn away when they either couldn't get around the issue or rightfully don't feel comfortable running something flagged as a virus.2) It doesn't really seem to have spawned all that many good developer practices. Maybe the ease of use brought the copypaste coders out of the woodwork, I truly don't know. It does bridge the gap between compiling a ton of dependencies, dealing with python packaging, etc, but most people copy code and have repos of code that are not checked or haven't really had much work done on them. I present to you as exhibit B, sam's rotation code which is very flawed and which all kinds of people use rather than bothering to do their own math and research. More mainstream languages provide this kind of code in libraries written by people who know what they're doing for the most part, and it's not super hard to find rotation code, or a library that will help you with it.3) There are a lot of issues with extending games. One of the things I witnessed a lot was Sam saying "Well BGT sucks for X, but redspot is already x lines of code and I don't want to restart." At the point where you start running into issues imposed by a very old and outdated scripting engine or a terrible networking library, you've probably already sunk a lot of time and effort into writing your game and simply don't want to restart. This just makes the decision to continue bolting things on to an already project more viable, and it makes the likelyhood of bugs and issues persisting much higher.4) Finally, programming has a decent learning curve. I don't know particularly how I feel about that, I don't want to say that facedesking until you figure out just which magic words to say to make python work properly in a nice compiled package should be required for everyone, but the complaint I usually see is people moving from a language where everything is handed to them to a language where they might have to write their own things like a game menu. There are things that solve this problem, but unfortunately the python library that most of the people I know are working on isn't going to be public, so that problem won't ever be solved until someone steps up and does the same song and dance to create an audio game toolkit in Python or something similar.All of this said, I do agree that there is an advantage which you'd only get through a high level language in that BGT is easy to rapidly develop, prototype and create your ideas in and doesn't require a PHD in smart pointer management. I think Python would somewhat serve as a solution to this as well.#39: I agree with most of this except for the single threaded application bit. Unless you're using a language that truly supports threads, this doesn't matter anyway. Usually multithreading is not the solution to performance.#41: You're comparing apples to oranges here. He's saying the BGT stub is a different size, and you are arguing this point and saying that this doesn't mean anything. There are ways to verify if things were added or removed, some of which Cart
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Alright folks, let's settle this.The real misunderstanding is in Chris's post:Chris wrote:Big studios cannot make the excuse that it costs too much. These companies have incredible amounts of resources at their disposal. I think people either don't know what to do, don't know the issue exists, or don't care.Ok, have you ever looked up close at what mainstream game development actually implies? It's called investment vs return. Just because they may have millions doesn't mean it's steady millions. Millenials want 4k cinematic graphics? They have to invest in that, because apparently it's all the rage, plus games and entertainment seem to be merging as one (refer to the most recent example of this, the live performance from this electrohouse dj called Marshmello on Fortnight, the seemingly most popular pvp in the world.) but I digress. Indie devs especially, or companies like EA that build the game from the ground up with accessibility in mind, have a much better start. They're already investing into the project, and it's going to usually turn out to be an already-good project anyway with steady revenue growth. But redoing a project to add accessibility features that will impress a tiny sum of customers? Remember, we're up against millions of folks here, so that big an investment for such little return, just, isn't, going, to happen. Don't fight me on this - it's just a natural fact. Big investment for knowingly little return does not make financial sense for even a million dollar studio. They still have employees that they need to pay and treat nicer (hope you haven't been hiding under a rock, have you seen Rockstar's recent case of outrageous forcing of crunchtime for q a testers and voiceovers for Red Dead Redemption?) Or how Telltale games essentially folded, laying off so many of their staff unfairly, at least the ones who didn't already feel like they wanted to get the hell out, strictly because! of employee dehumanization and shaming for not going along with intentional crunchtime, or being told they could take days off if needed yet being seen as the asshole when they actually do (that's a rockstar example) etc. Make no mistake about it the bloated corporate game studios are no fun and games, and you might as well educate yourself on that fact as well. That's part of the reason why indie devs are around in the first place; more freedom, more creative lead, less worrying about satisfying the masses and more doing something for the greater good. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410006/#p410006 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Hi.So, that post might be a bit jumbeled up because I am half asleep, but here is my stance on the whole integration debate regarding gaming.Something I want to address firstly is that, at leased from my point of view, many blind people enjoy their simple games and are not willing to step out of their own bubble, even when it comes to more advanced audiogames.An example, even though it is a bit older. When audiogame hub 2 was released there was a questionaire on which kind of games people wanted to see in the app. And wel, what should I say, they voted Simon to be a part of the app.Simon, the most simplistic game concept that there is and of which we already have a ton, even on the mobile market, things like Zany Touch, or the bopit game on Hubudle, which is now called game world I think.Also, this explains why the blindfold games create such a tocsic comunity. Say one bad thing in the applevis comments about the game and you are ripped to shreds by people who can't keep up an argument chain and are not able to comprehend that there are people not wanting to support the cash grab methods of blindfold games.Then, mainstream games.Over the last year or so I noticed that my focus switched to mainstream games for the most part and audiogames were taking a backseat position. Yes, I due sometimes still play some games, games like AHC, new horizons, Cyclepath are still great games, possibly the latter not beeing the most complex of games, but surely having one of the best sound designs, shout out for Pitermach for creating those.AHC was a major leap for audiogames when it was promoted. As Ethin said and which I can't deny, it is not as complex as a standard fantasy game for the mainstream market, it doesn't mean it is a bad game imo, it is very sollit for an audiogame and I really enjoy playing it.But, back to the mainstream games.I can understand that using the OCR and learning menus is tedious for some people not that experienced with computers or gaming, but again, as Ethin said, we need to integrate into the sighted comunity and kindly request accessibility changes.The biggest chance we might have are with indi developers due to the fact that these are smaller studios and don't have a big player base already and are mostly more open for discussion.We are just not as big as a market for the big studios to make an impact. Remember, these companys only have one thing in mind, and that is making money.Yes, harsh for some possibly, but companys like Rockstar, Ubisoft, Bethesta and EA only see you as ATM machines to sell their products to.Putting more money into accessibility just for some people is not worth the effort for them.Quick rundown why. Before a product of any kind is released to the public, companys conduct a marketing analysis.Things like, what is are product, what is the group of people we want to sell the product to, what makes our product stand out. What is our market positions, do we hold a monopolistic position or do we have to face an Oligopol market with many vendors and customers?The percentage of blind people activly playing audiogames isn't that large I can imagine, the percentage of that group which actively play mainstream games is even lower. I wouldn't say 0, but it's still quite a low number.Maybe you get my point I try bringing across wy integrating accessibility features is not worth the effort for mainstream devs.Do i wish the situation would be different? Oh yeah, I do, mainstream games have so many things audiogames don't have, but I am not someone who can go and change the situation over night, it requires many people to move something in the business.So, that much from me.Greetings Moritz. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410005/#p410005 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : nidza07 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus It's alright dude, there's a different language which does not involve calling something retarded all the time. If a mainstream game is not accessible, it is perfectly legitimate to play an audio version and to develop one if not available. If it's not as good as a mainstream equivalent, well, it doesn't in most cases have the same funding either, and playing something is better than nothing. In any case, let's say I was wrong and you are a hardcore audiogamer, then you are just as much wrong with me not playing mainstream games. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/410003/#p410003 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @54, what kind of retarded, bullshit statement is that? Clearly you don't understand my post. At all. Please go reread my post. Did I ever tell people to stop playing audio games? No I didn't. Did I ever tell people that we need to integrate with the mainstream community and stop making ripoff clones of them that can't even come close to their mainstream equivalents? yes I did. And this is coming from someone who has played over 3/4 of the audio games in agarchive.net, to someone (aka you) who has played what, zero mainstream games? I clearly stated, in my post, that if we didn't want to destroy ourselves by making ripoffs and pathetic clones of mainstream games "because we could" that we should integrate. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409995/#p409995 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @54, what kind of retarded statement is that? Clearly you don't understand my post. At all. Please go reread my post. Did I ever tell people to stop playing audio games? No I didn't. Did I ever tell people that we need to integrate with the mainstream community and stop making ripoff clones of them that can't even come close to their mainstream equivalents? yes I did. And this is coming from someone who has played over 3/4 of the audio games in agarchive.net, to someone (aka you) who has played what, zero mainstream games? I clearly stated, in my post, that if we didn't want to destroy ourselves by making ripoffs and pathetic clones of mainstream games "because we could" that we should integrate. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409995/#p409995 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus I mean unless it's on steam or the app store, most people won't give a shit anyway, especially when games like Brain Station have been done a thousand times with a much bigger budget already.This is the same falissy that people had with AHC, which was just a cut down 90s style RPG with a tired storyline and modern audio, but a big leap forward for audio games! Graphics (even high quality ones) weren't going to change that even if you got a few friends playing it to be nice, because they have stuff that's ten steps ahead of that at their fingertips.Unless we make blind centric games for sighted people that also happen to be decent audio games, and do allot of sensationalist marketing and put it on the right platforms, we wont' grab their attention as gamers. Maybe as financial backers, if we're lucky and smart.Look at A Blind Legend for a great example of this done well, or The Blind Swordsman for a lower profile example. Their are actually several youtube videos from small channels of sighted people trying those ones for the novelty... But that's all it will ever be, an oddity to show off either for the uniqueness of it, or for virtue signallingAccepting that fact though saves allot of wasted time and frustration... And if you move forward knowing your audience you have a much better chance of being successful than you would with your head in the clouds IMO.AHC kind of managed to break the mold by not being for sighted people but still getting allot of press attention, but that's because they started up an actual company and had a team of people. They also clearly came in at a good time and marketed them selves heavily in places where we probably wouldn't have been invited too even three years ago, before this bigger accessibility push started.It's great for the low vision people though, and they definitely shouldn't be excluded!Also the excuse before was that it would be too expensive and time consuming to try and integrate serious accessibility into an already existing game, which is apparently true for the most part.The build from the ground up with accessibility in mind approach seems to be going over better, but progress is slow and only a handful of studios seem enthusiastic about it still. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409981/#p409981 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @54, what kind of retarded statement is that? Clearly you don't understand my post. At all. Please go reread my post. Did I ever tell people to stop playing audio games? No I didn't. Did I ever tell people that we need to integrate with the mainstream community and stop making ripoff clones o fthem that can't even come close to their mainstream equivalents? Yes I did. So stop being a dick and *learn to read*! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409995/#p409995 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus I mean unless it's on steam or the app store, most people won't give a shit anyway, especially when games like Brain Station have been done a thousand times with a much bigger budget already.This is the same falissy that people had with AHC, which was just a cut down 90s style RPG with a tired storyline and modern audio, but a big leap forward for audio games! Graphics (even high quality ones) weren't going to change that even if you got a few friends playing it to be nice, because they have stuff that's ten steps ahead of that at their fingertips.Unless we make blind centric games for sighted people that also happen to be decent audio games, and do allot of sensationalist marketing and put it on the right platforms, we wont' grab their attention as gamers. Maybe as financial backers, if we're lucky and smart.Look at A Blind Legend for a great example of this done well, or The Blind Swordsman for a lower profile example. Their are actually several youtube videos from small channels of sighted people trying those ones for the novelty... But that's all it will ever be, an oddity to show off either for the uniqueness of it, or for virtue signallingAccepting that fact though saves allot of wasted time and frustration... And if you move forward knowing your audience you have a much better chance of being successful than you would with your head in the clouds IMO.AHC kind of managed to break the mold by not being for sighted people but still getting allot of press attention, but that's because they started up an actual company and had a team of people. They also clearly came in at a good time and marketed them selves heavily in places where we probably wouldn't have been invited too even three years ago, before this bigger accessibility push started.It's great for the low vision people though, and they definitely shouldn't be excluded! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409981/#p409981 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus I mean unless it's on steam or the app store, most people won't give a shit anyway, especially when games like Brain Station have been done a thousand times with a much bigger budget already.This is the same falissy that people had with AHC, which was just a cut down 90s style RPG with a tired storyline and modern audio, but a big leap forward for audio games! Graphics (even high quality ones) weren't going to change that even if you got a few friends playing it to be nice, because they have stuff that's ten steps ahead of that at their fingertips.Unless we make blind centric games for sighted people that also happen to be decent audio games, and do allot of sensationalist marketing and put it on the right platforms, we wont' grab their attention as gamers. Maybe as financial backers, if we're lucky and smart.Look at A Blind Legend for a great example of this done well, or The Blind Swordsman for a lower profile example. Their are actually several youtube videos from small channels of sighted people trying those ones for the novelty... But that's all it will ever be, an oddity to show off either for the uniqueness of it, or for virtue signallingAccepting that fact though saves allot of wasted time and frustration... And if you move forward knowing your audience you have a much better chance of being successful than you would with your head in the clouds IMO.AHC kind of managed to break the mold by not being for sighted people but still getting allot of press attention, but that's because they started up an actual company and had a team of people. They also clearly came in at a good time and marketed them selves heavily in places where we wouldn't have been invited too five years agoIt's great for the low vision people though, and they definitely shouldn't be excluded! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409981/#p409981 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : nidza07 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Yeah right, because having both audiogames and mainstream games is bad and will definitely destroy the community. Where does this opinion come from? Oh yeah, a guy which played probably 5 audiogames in his life if that. Mainstream games will always be superiour, however what's the actual percentage of mainstream games you yourself can play? Keep in mind that this is only playable, if I say games which you can complete that makes the percentage go down even more. I'm not talking about messing around in GTA, that's a playable game, however when you can do the story alone then you can call it a fully accessible mainstream game. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409989/#p409989 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @50, oh my god dude. Have you ever written a screen reader? Do you know how one works in great detail? No? Then you shouldn't expect others to do it too. Its not exactly an easy process. And adding screen reader support may be easy, but do keep in mind that not everyone in the world knows about screen readers. That wasn't even my logic either. My logic was that we need to integrate. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409984/#p409984 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @50, oh my god dude. Have you ever written a screen reader? Do you know how one works in great detail? No? Then you shouldn't expect others to do it too. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409984/#p409984 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus I mean unless it's on steam or the app store, most people won't give a shit anyway, especially when games like Brain Station have been done a thousand times with a much bigger budget already.This is the same falissy that people had with AHC, which was just a cut down 90s style RPG with a tired storyline and modern audio, but a big leap forward for audio games. Graphics (even high quality ones) weren't going to change that even if you got a few friends playing it to be nice, because they have stuff that's ten steps ahead of that at their fingertips.Unless we make blind centric games for sighted people that also happen to be decent audio games, and do allot of sensationalist marketing and put it on the right platforms, we wont' grab their attention as gamers. Maybe as financial backers, if we're lucky and smart.Look at A Blind Legend for a great example of this done well, or The Blind Swordsman for a lower profile example. Their are actually several youtube videos from small channels of sighted people trying those ones for the novelty... But that's all it will ever be, an oddity to show off either for the uniqueness of it, or for virtue signallingAccepting that fact though saves allot of wasted time and frustration... And if you move forward knowing your audience you have a much better chance of being successful than you would with your head in the clouds IMO.AHC kind of managed to break the mold by not being for sighted people but still getting allot of press attention, but that's because they started up an actual company and had a team of people. They also clearly came in at a good time and marketed them selves heavily in places where we wouldn't have been invited too five years agoIt's great for the low vision people though, and they definitely shouldn't be excluded! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409981/#p409981 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus I mean unless it's on steam or the app store, most people won't give a shit anyway, especially when it's been done a thousand times with a much bigger budget already.This is the same falissy that people had with AHC, which was just a cut down 90s style RPG with a tired storyline and modern audio, but a big leap forward for audio games. Graphics (even high quality ones) weren't going to change that even if you got a few friends playing it to be nice, because they have stuff that's ten steps ahead of that at their fingertips.Unless we make blind centric games for sighted people that also happen to be decent audio games, and do allot of sensationalist marketing and put it on the right platforms, we wont' grab their attention as gamers. Maybe as financial backers, if we're lucky and smart.Look at A Blind Legend for a great example of this done well, or The Blind Swordsman for a lower profile example. Their are actually several youtube videos from small channels of sighted people trying those ones for the novelty... But that's all it will ever be, an oddity to show off either for the uniqueness of it, or for virtue signallingAccepting that fact though saves allot of wasted time and frustration... And if you move forward knowing your audience you have a much better chance of being successful than you would with your head in the clouds IMO.AHC kind of managed to break the mold by not being for sighted people but still getting allot of press attention, but that's because they started up an actual company and had a team of people. They also clearly came in at a good time and marketed them selves heavily in places where we wouldn't have been invited too five years agoIt's great for the low vision people though, and they definitely shouldn't be excluded! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409981/#p409981 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus I mean unless it's on steam or the app store, most people won't give a shit anyway, especially when it's been done a thousand times with a much bigger budget already.This is the same falissy that people had with AHC, which was just a cut down 90s style RPG with a tired storyline and modern audio, but a big leap forward for audio games. Graphics weren't going to change that even if you got a few friends playing it to be nice.Unless we make blind centric games for sighted people that also happen to be decent audio games, and do allot of sensationalist marketing and put it on the right platforms, we wont' grab their attention as gamers. Maybe as financial backers, if we're lucky and smart.Look at A Blind Legend for a great example of this done well, or The Blind Swordsman for a lower profile example. Their are actually several youtube videos from small channels of sighted people trying those ones for the novelty... But that's all it will ever be, an oddity to show off either for the uniqueness of it, or for virtue signallingAccepting that fact though saves allot of wasted time and frustration... And if you move forward knowing your audience you have a much better chance of being successful than you would with your head in the clouds IMO.AHC kind of managed to break the mold by not being for sighted people but still getting allot of press attention, but that's because they started up an actual company and had a team of people. They also clearly came in at a good time and marketed them selves heavily in places where we wouldn't have been invited too five years agoIt's great for the low vision people though, and they definitely shouldn't be excluded! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409981/#p409981 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus I mean unless it's on steam or the app store, most people won't give a shit anyway, especially when it's been done a thousand times with a much bigger budget already.This is the same falissy that people had with AHC, which was just a cut down 90s style RPG with a tired storyline and modern audio.Unless we make blind centric games for sighted people that also happen to be decent audio games, and do allot of sensationalist marketing and put it on the right platforms, we wont' grab their attention as gamers. Maybe as financial backers, if we're lucky and smart.Look at A Blind Legend for a great example of this done well, or The Blind Swordsman for a lower profile example. Their are actually several youtube videos from small channels of sighted people trying those ones for the novelty... But that's all it will ever be, an oddity to show off either for the uniqueness of it, or for virtue signallingAccepting that fact though saves allot of wasted time and frustration... And if you move forward knowing your audience you have a much better chance of being successful than you would with your head in the clouds IMO.AHC kind of managed to break the mold by not being for sighted people but still getting allot of press attention, but that's because they started up an actual company and had a team of people. They also clearly came in at a good time and marketed them selves heavily in places where we wouldn't have been invited too five years agoIt's great for the low vision people though, and they definitely shouldn't be excluded! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409981/#p409981 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus I mean unless it's on steam most people won't give a shit anyway, especially when it's been done a thuosand times with a much bigger budget already.This is the same falissy that people had with AHC, which was just a cut down 90s style RPG with a tired storyline and modern audio.Unless we make blind centric games for sighted people that also happen to be decent audio games, and do allot of sensationalist marketing and put it on the right platforms, we wont' grab their attention.Look at A Blind Legend for a great example of this done well, or The Blind Swordsman for a lower profile example.AHC kind of managed to break the mold by not being for sighted people but still getting allot of press attention, but that's because they started up an actual company and had a team of people. They also clearly came in at a good time and marketed them selves heavily in places where we wouldn't have been invited too five years agoIt's great for the low vision people though, and they definitely shouldn't be excluded. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409981/#p409981 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Sorry about my earlier post being all weird, it was a ruff draft I accidentally posted, but I fixed it up LOL.Anyway, I see the point about us modernizing. We can't stay so insular... And even with the steps forward we make every few years, we're still far behind what we probably should be.As mainstream consoles hopefully start adding more accessibility features, and as more mainstream Indi devs keep making audio games more often, we'll need to stay abreast of that if we want to have our own say in how we're represented in those games, or have any chance of competing financially as members of our own market.That eventuality may be a decade down the line, but it may still be something to keep in mind.I still think that their is a value in smaller, high replayability, more simplistic titles and that we shouldn't be pushing so hard for every hobbyist to become a trailblazer or assume so much about what beginner coders want, but the visual thing especially is a pretty good point.So far we haven't had much success with that, but it's mostly the way we go about it. Audio games meant for experienced blind players with low quality visuals tacked on, just as they'll make visual games meant for sighted players with audio and a blindness focus badly tacked on for us, and a lack of contacts, organization, or funds for doing visual work.I think the deficit in coders able to do PR properly or work well in a team is still our main problem, but we should be looking forward regardless, and BGT just isn't that.As for the BGT version thing, I guess I get it because he's not selling it any more, hasn't been for years, and publically closed the project for ever. and maybe he doesn't want to get people thinking he's willing to ramp up full development again by releasing it as a paid upgrade, especially when it has such a bad rep now.He just did some tinkering is all and didn't fix any major underlying issues as far as I kno, so he probably also doesn't want twenty teens spamming his inbox and creating new threads demanding new features and upgrades.It's shitty for the handful of people still making good stuff with BGT, but I bet you if they asked him he'd possibly provide it to them, and maybe he already has and they just didn't say anything as to not stir things up.I'm not personally sure why he even bothered to update it, and he's probably regretting it now, but it was probably just a (why not since I can) sorta deal. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409978/#p409978 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus That makes absolutely no sense. According to your logic, Apple, Google, and Microsoft shouldn't have built fully-featured screen readers into their operating systems. There is no reason mainstream games can't do the same thing. Most people have no idea VoiceOver, TalkBack, and Narrator are built into their devices. Why should the average gamer care about accessibility options if they're disabled by default and require either a special command or an option to be switched on in a menu. If anything, your attitude doesn't encourage the idea that people should be writing games for everyone from the ground up. If anything, it stifles it. Big studios cannot make the excuse that it costs too much. These companies have incredible amounts of resources at their disposal. I think people either don't know what to do, don't know the issue exists, or don't care.That's my main problem with BGT. It's great that we have it, but not including the ability to add visuals was a huge oversight on Philip's part. Liam's Brain Station game won't have visuals because of this. I think that game would be a great example of something built for everyone, but because it's written in BGT and has no visuals, sighted folks won't want to play it. Then again, the only group of people that truly can't play audio games are those who are deaf. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409980/#p409980 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Sorry about my earlier post being all weird, it was a ruff draft I accidentally posted, but I fixed it up LOL.Anyway, I see the point about us modernizing. We can't stay so insular... And even with the steps forward we make every few years, we're still far behind what we probably should be.As mainstream consoles hopefully start adding more accessibility features, and as more mainstream Indi devs keep making audio games more often, we'll need to stay abreast of that if we want to have our own say in how we're represented in those games, or have any chance of competing financially as members of our own market.That eventuality may be a decade down the line, but it may still be something to keep in mind.I still think that their is a value in smaller, high replayability, more simplistic titles and that we shouldn't be pushing so hard for every hobbyist to become a trailblazer or assume so much about what beginner coders want, but the visual thing especially is a pretty good point.So far we haven't had much success with that, but it's mostly the way we go about it. Audio games meant for experienced blind players with low quality visuals tacked on, just as they'll make visual games meant for sighted players with audio and a blindness focus badly tacked on for us, and a lack of contacts, organization, or funds for doing visual work.I think the deficit in coders able to do PR properly or work well in a team is still our main problem, but we should be looking forward regardless, and BGT just isn't that.As for the BGT version thing, I guess I get it because he's not selling it any more, hasn't been for years, and publically closed the project for ever. and maybe he doesn't want to get people thinking he's willing to ramp up full development again by releasing it as a paid upgrade, especially when it has such a bad rep now.He just did some tinkering is all and didn't fix any major underlying issues as far as I kno, so he probably also doesn't want a million people asking for stuff.It's shitty for the handful of people still making good stuff with BGT, but I bet you if they asked him he'd possibly provide it to them, and maybe he already has and they just didn't say anything as to not stir things up.I'm not personally sure why he even bothered to update it, but it was probably just a why not since I can, sorta thing. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409978/#p409978 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus Sorry about my earlier post being all weird, it was a ruff draft I accidentally posted, but I fixed it up LOL.Anyway, I see the point about us modernizing. We can't stay so insular... And even with the steps forward we make every few years, we're still far behind what we probably should be.As mainstream consoles hopefully start adding more accessibility features, and as more mainstream Indi devs keep making audio games more often, we'll need to stay abreast of that if we want to have our own say in how we're represented in those games, or have any chance of competing financially as members of our own market.That eventuality may be a decade down the line, but it may still be something to keep in mind.I still think that their is a value in smaller, high replayability, more simplistic titles and that we shouldn't be pushing so hard for every hobbyist to become a trailblazer or assume so much about what beginner coders want, but the visual thing especially is a pretty good point.So far we haven't had much success with that, but it's mostly the way we go about it. Audio games meant for experienced blind players with low quality visuals tacked on, just as they'll make visual games meant for sighted players with audio and a blindness focus badly tacked on for us, and a lack of contacts, organization, or funds for doing visual work.I think the deficit in coders able to do PR properly or work well in a team is still our main problem, but we should be looking forward regardless, and BGT just isn't that. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409978/#p409978 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Update: Lukas, Carter: I cannot reproduce your results. Checking Manamon and a compiled BGT game yielded the same byte count for both (887 KB, 908288 bytes, with offsets 0xddc00 and 0xf9c00). I did, however, discover the following functions when I ran strings (with arguments -d -Tpe-i386) on Manamon. Didn't manage to figure out the different angelscript version though...Line 6,739 (elias.dll is referenced on line 5,492 as well):elias elias @f() bool load(const string& in, const string& in) bool start(int, int) bool pause() bool resume() bool set_level(int, int) bool request_change(int) bool silence() bool play_stinger(int) int[]@ get_keys() bool close() bool get_transitioning() bool get_immediately() void set_immediately(bool) bool get_rendezvous() void set_rendezvous(bool) int get_urgency() void set_urgency(int) int get_stinger() void set_stinger(int) int get_key() void set_key(int) int get_greatest_level() double get_volume() double get_pan() bool get_playing()I also discovered this, line 7,947:E:\Bgt\bgt_stb_update\bgt.pdbWhen opening bgt.exe in strings with the same arguments, that path is:E:\C++ tests\Bgt\bgt.pdbSo, to those who I shrugged off and who I offended (if I did) I apologize. I was blinded by my own confidence and it took Carters help (along with me poking around it with strings) to know my folly. This does raise a few questions though:1. What is the "STB Update"? Was it intended for others as well, not just VG?2. Why did VG get this and no one else? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409975/#p409975 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @46, you find that "unacceptable"? Well, deal with it, its the real world. People aren't going to cater to your every whim and desire. We need to start integrating with the sited community -- have you noticed that only you have disagreed with me on that point? We can't even come close to making an FPS that even matches quake 3, let alone Mortal Kombat! Like I said, AHC tried and failed. Whether you find it unacceptable or acceptable is irrelevant. You'll just have to either suck it up and deal with it or stop gaming, because this attitude of yours (and probably others') of "Oh, let's stay isolated, we'll be fine" is going to result in most likely the complete destruction of this entire community because all the sited games are a million times better than anything we could ever make. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409963/#p409963 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : cartertemm via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus The size alterations are as I said purely commited to bytecode as far as I know, the stub already has everything it needs to. In debug, quite a bit of additional information is exposed such as variable names, file names, line numbers, and code to enhance the profiler.You can test this by slightly modifying the last line of my python code abovet.write(r.replace(r[:offset], b""))You're now given the encrypted bytecode, or data appended to our executable. Try compiling as both debug and release. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409952/#p409952 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus Yeah, what's so great about BGT anyway? It provides no way to output visual information and it's not being maintained anymore unless it is true that people have newer private versions. I wonder why they're private in the first place ? Why not let everyone use them?I'm sorry, but I don't agree with post 19. I want playable games that everyone can play together, but settling for playing mainstream games using OCR, memorizing menu positions, and other assorted workarounds is unacceptable! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409949/#p409949 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @44, I didn't see your post when I edited mine and submitted it. Weird.OK... so, let's say your right. Let's assume for a moment that the version of BGT is different. So what does that prove? Yes, in this "assumption" he supposedly gives out versions of BGT to VGStorm (though I don't get why). That doesn't mean much, now does it? We don't know the circumstances behind the exchange. We don't know if it was because they were friends (which I doubt) or because Aaron paid him for it (which seems understandable, since companies do that too).I shrugged off Lukas's evidence because I'm honestly curious if Phillip will admit it, and because debug/release builds of programs do alter their size (OK, minus BGT...). Didn't know about pefile, I'll look into that and play with it. OK... I already have it. Wonder which module installed it.My "idiot" comment wasn't baseless, Simpter was actually looking like an idiot, throwing accusations around left and right as though what Phillip did was some kind of crime, which you already addressed. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409946/#p409946 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @44, I didn't see your post when I edited mine and submitted it. Weird.OK... so, let's say your right. Let's assume for a moment that the version of BGT is different. So what does that prove? Yes, in this "assumption" he supposedly gives out versions of BGT to VGStorm (though I don't get why). That doesn't mean much, now does it? We don't know the circumstances behind the exchange. We don't know if it was because they were friends (which I doubt) or because Aaron paid him for it (which seems understandable, since companies do that too).I shrugged off Lukas's evidence because I'm honestly curious if Phillip will admit it, and because debug/release builds of programs do alter their size (OK, minus BGT...). Didn't know about pefile, I'll look into that and play with it. OK... I already have it. Wonder which module installed it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409946/#p409946 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Re: why bgt dont continus @44, I didn't see your post when I edited mine and submitted it. Weird.OK... so, let's say your right. Let's assume for a moment that the version of BGT is different. So what does that prove? Yes, in this "assumption" he gives out versions of BGT to VGStorm (though I don't get why). That doesn't mean much, now does it? We don't know the circumstances behind the exchange. We don't know if it was because they were friends (which I doubt) or because Aaron paid him for it (which seems understandable, since companies do that too).I shrugged off Lukas's evidence because I'm honestly curious if Phillip will admit it, and because debug/release builds of programs do alter their size (OK, minus BGT...). Didn't know about pefile, I'll look into that and play with it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409946/#p409946 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : cartertemm via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Sighs.@16So he gives out different versions to others... Good for him, Precisely why is this an issue? What crime is being commited that is in direct harm to you, and in which way are you being offended. Please explain@ethinIf your gonna go around calling people idiots, please don't do so baselessly. If you'd like to call someone's ideas stupid, how about actually presenting better ones or at least showing where they went wrong? Lucas has provided technical explanations, to which you've done nothing but shrug off. So I'm apt to go with his assumptions.Here I will do likewise in showing you that manamon is in fact using a different version of BGT, one not released publicly. If your still able to come to a conclusion as to how this proves nothing, and can back it up, I'll gladly listen.1. Get BGT2. Write a simple script, I'll call it game.bgt for simplicities sakevoid main(){alert("test","this is a test");}3. Compile it.4. Grab the stub, the following python script will do it assuming you have pefile installed.import pefileimport syswith open("game.exe", "rb") as s: r = s.read()pe = pefile.PE("game.exe")offset = pe.get_overlay_data_start_offset()with open("stub.out", "wb") as t: t.write(r.replace(r[offset:], b""))5. Run the same script on games such as manamon and make sure to examine the output in detail, specifically exposed functions and constants in the executible. I'd personally use strings.You'll notice that there are, in fact, functions not present in the original stub. Hell, if your lazy, run a diff on both stubs to see what we're talking about.You're even looking at a newer version of angelscript.I might add, the only way one could improve upon the original version of BGT would involve intense reverse engineering and manipulation to such a point where it might be easier to just write your game in another language, or attempt but probably fail to mirror all BGT's functions.edit: So you actually replied between the time I began writing this and clicked the post button. Interestingly enough, all the above applies and there's actually no reason to delete or modify anything.Oh yeah, debug and release builds don't have any reason whatsoever to modify anything but the appended and encrypted angelscript bytecode
URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409917/#p409917
--
Audiogames-reflector mailing list
Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com
https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : cartertemm via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Sighs.@16So he gives out different versions to others... Good for him, Precisely why is this an issue? What crime is being commited that is in direct harm to you, and in which way are you being offended. Please explain@ethinIf your gonna go around calling people idiots, please don't do so baselessly. If you'd like to call someone's ideas stupid, how about actually presenting better ones or at least showing where they went wrong? Lucas has provided technical explanations, to which you've done nothing but shrug off. So I'm apt to go with his assumptions.Here I will do likewise in showing you that manamon is in fact using a different version of BGT, one not released publicly. If your still able to come to a conclusion as to how this proves nothing, and can back it up, I'll gladly listen.1. Get BGT2. Write a simple script, I'll call it game.bgt for simplicities sakevoid main(){alert("test","this is a test");}3. Compile it.4. Grab the stub, the following python script will do it assuming you have pefile installed.import pefileimport syswith open("game.exe", "rb") as s: r = s.read()pe = pefile.PE("game.exe")offset = pe.get_overlay_data_start_offset()with open("stub.out", "wb") as t: t.write(r.replace(r[offset:], b""))5. Run the same script on games such as manamon and make sure to examine the output in detail, specifically exposed functions and constants in the executible. I'd personally use strings.You'll notice that there are, in fact, functions not present in the original stub. Hell, if your lazy, run a diff on both stubs to see what we're talking about.You're even looking at a newer version of angelscript.I might add, the only way one could improve upon the original version of BGT would involve intense reverse engineering and manipulation to such a point where it might be easier to just write your game in another language, or attempt but probably fail to mirror all BGT's functions.edit: So you actually replied between the time I began writing this and clicked the post button. Interestingly enough, all the above applies and there's actually no reason to delete or modify.Oh yeah, debug and release builds don't have any reason whatsoever to modify anything but the appended and encrypted angelscript bytecode
URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409917/#p409917
--
Audiogames-reflector mailing list
Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com
https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
2019-02-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : cartertemm via Audiogames-reflector
Re: why bgt dont continus
Sighs.@16So he gives out different versions to others... Good for him, Precisely why is this an issue? What crime is being commited that is in direct harm to you, and in which way are you being offended. Please explain@ethinIf your gonna go around calling people idiots, please don't do so baselessly. If you'd like to call someone's ideas stupid, how about actually presenting better ones or at least showing where they went wrong? Lucas has provided technical explanations, to which you've done nothing but shrug off. So I'm apt to go with his assumptions.Here I will do likewise in showing you that manamon is in fact using a different version of BGT, one not released publicly. If your still able to come to a conclusion as to how this proves nothing, and can back it up, I'll gladly listen.1. Get BGT2. Write a simple script, I'll call it game.bgt for simplicities sakevoid main(){alert("test","this is a test");}3. Compile it.4. Grab the stub, the following python script will do it assuming you have pefile installed.import pefileimport syswith open("game.exe", "rb") as s: r = s.read()pe = pefile.PE("game.exe")offset = pe.get_overlay_data_start_offset()with open("stub.out", "wb") as t: t.write(r.replace(r[offset:], b""))5. Run the same script on games such as manamon and make sure to examine the output in detail, specifically exposed functions and constants in the executible. I'd personally use strings.You'll notice that there are, in fact, functions not present in the original stub. Hell, if your lazy, run a diff on both stubs to see what we're talking about.You're even looking at a newer version of angelscript.I might add, the only way one could improve upon the original version of BGT would involve intense reverse engineering and manipulation to such a point where it might be easier to just write your game in another language, or attempt but probably fail to mirror all BGT's functions.edit: So you actually replied between the time I began writing this and clicked the post button. Interestingly enough, all the above applies and there's actually no reason to delete or modify anything above.Oh yeah, debug and release builds don't have a reason to modify anything but the appended and encrypted angelscript bytecode
URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/409917/#p409917
--
Audiogames-reflector mailing list
Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com
https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
