subject:"Re\: \[SlimDevices\: Audiophiles\] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads\?"

Mnyb wrote: 
> Do you remeber our tread about "intersample overs" not many DAC
> especially older ones shave not acounted for this effect

Indeed, and yes, intersample peaks are an issue with older DACs, but I
would expect modern designs to deal with it - it is pretty easy to do,
after all.

"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Julf wrote: 
> So you suspect your DAC hasn't been designed with enough headroom?

Do you remeber our tread about "intersample overs" not many DAC
especially older ones shave not acounted for this effect , which in turn
is an artefact of modern record producing .
DAC mfg is often hunting specs so even if some filters alows for gain
adjustments in theri parameters you get better snr if you don't :) so
they just assume perfect recordings




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MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
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Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
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iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-28 Thread garym

Mnyb wrote: 
> Do you remeber our tread about "intersample overs" not many DAC
> especially older ones shave not acounted for this effect , which in turn
> is an artefact of modern record producing .
> DAC mfg is often hunting specs so even if some filters alows for gain
> adjustments in theri parameters you get better snr if you don't :) so
> they just assume perfect recordings

This relates to the function of the newest Benchmark DAC, the DAC2. 
Pasted below is their brief discussion in their advertising. I think
there is a longer discussion somewhere on their website. (I'm not
claiming any of this is correct, as I don't knowjust pointing out
this example).

High Headroom DSP - with 3.5 dB "Excess" Digital Headroom All
of the digital processing in the DAC2 HGC is designed to handle  signals
as high as +3.5 dBFS. Most digital systems clip signals that  exceed 0
dBFS. The 0 dBFS limitation seems reasonable, as 0 dBFS is the  highest
sinusoidal signal level that can be represented in a digital  system.
However, a detailed investigation of the mathematics of PCM  digital
systems will reveal that inter-sample peaks may reach levels  slightly
higher than +3 dBFS while individual samples never exceed 0  dBFS. These
inter-sample overs are common in commercial releases, and  are of no
consequence in a PCM system until they reach an interpolation  process.
But, for a variety of reasons, virtually all audio D/A  converters use
an interpolation process. The interpolation process is  absolutely
necessary to achieve 24-bit state-of-the art conversion  performance.
Unfortunately, inter-sample overs cause clipping in most  interpolators.
This clipping produces distortion products that are  non-harmonic and
non-musical . We believe these broadband distortion  products often add
a harshness or false high-frequency sparkle to  digital reproduction.
The DAC2 HGC avoids these problems by maintaining  at least 3.5 dB of
headroom in the entire conversion system. We believe  this added
headroom is a groundbreaking improvement.

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Streaming: Spotify

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-28 Thread darrenyeats


Julf, I have a DAC1. Set up the right way anyway, it's still a good
DAC.
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=137152



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

darrenyeats wrote: 
> Julf, I have a DAC1. Set up the right way anyway, it's still a good
> DAC.
> http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=137152

I have to agree with the comments from Werner in that thread.

"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-28 Thread darrenyeats


Some recordings are very quiet others very loud. Sometimes I don't want
to listen at a loud volume. I tend to use 30-65 most of the time but I
occasionally need say 20-80. I don't want a physical preamp. Therefore I
expect my digital volume to be blameless. 80-90 is not a realistic use
case, far too narrow. (BTW I'd avoid above 90 in any event to give my
DAC DSP headroom for upsampling/ASRC.)

Obviously better than any attenuation is getting the gain structure
right. I've done all I can on that front, that was step one.

As we know, noise is far far more benign than distortion. I'd rather
dither everything than have bit perfection but only for 16 bit and only
certain volume levels. The volume control should be dithered! You can
argue all you like about audibility but technically you know dithered
would be better.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Mnyb wrote: 
> A guess 80-90 volume is ok for the best recordings ever made?

Pretty much, yes. So far I haven't come across a single recording going
beyond 90 dB or so.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

darrenyeats wrote: 
> Thanks Clive.
> 
> To summarise what members utgg has clarified for us, a Touch volume
> setting of 40 (~-30db) or higher will be bit perfect with 16 bit source.
> So in this respect at least, similar to earlier Squeezeboxes according
> to your link.
> 
> That just leaves us (well, me anyway) the worry of volume 39 or lower
> with 16 bit source or volume below 100 with 24 bit source.

Good morning .. ( of to work in a minute )

With 24 bit sources you have a kind of wiggle room anyway so not quite
100 ( I'm again not going to figure the exact math, cue utgg ... )
We have discussed that no practical DAC's are really 24 bit ( more like
19-21 bit on a good day ).
That also goes for ADC and other recording equipment assume that the
best modern recordings ever made can reach the same level say 19-20 bits
,and that's a wide margin they are probably not that good .

Typical recordings don't even challenge the cd system ( most of the
recorded history including audiophile favourites like dstm ) , but this
is the audiophile forum so assume your best records on your best system
:)

A guess 80-90 volume is ok for the best recordings ever made ?

I have casually assumed that I have a practical 20 bit system at home (
best case quiet day ) and the recordings are at best 16 bit even if
branded as 24 bit ( 8 bit of random noise is not going to make it
better, even if you bougth them from HD tracks ) .

So what gives ? I think I can use some of the Touch volume 70-90 and all
of my meridian volume ( properly dithered ) without even theoretically
limit my sq .

I again I think the gain of the system is of more importance sending a
quit signal to the DAC means it closer to its noise floor but preamp or
power amp gain if of concern .

And I use bits and dB as the same thing ? You can assume that with
properly dithered modern equipment .

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Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

darrenyeats wrote: 
> BTW I'd avoid above 90 in any event to give my DAC DSP headroom for
> upsampling/ASRC.

So you suspect your DAC hasn't been designed with enough headroom?

"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

darrenyeats wrote: 
> Julf, for me the money shot is here:
> http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1990168=11
> 
> It is far from a single cycle in the example given. It's a macro-effect
> easily seen even at whole-track scale. It also happens to be one of my
> favourite albums, not an extreme outlier I googled or anything.
> Darren

OK, I admit - that is definitely a convincing case. The track might not
be an outlier, but the DAC is. So yes, if you have a DAC that has
absolutely no headroom, then pre-scaling might be a good idea.

"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

Julf wrote: 
> Indeed, and yes, intersample peaks are an issue with older DACs, but I
> would expect modern designs to deal with it - it is pretty easy to do,
> after all.

Yea but is it ? that would be something for audiorags to actually test ?
there are actually some old AES pappers on it on the net it was done
some decade ago . they scoped up some consumer devices to test that
showed this problem ,given that many brands uses the same chips as any
one else , we really have just a few of them so the problems was
widespread then ? So yes I think its safe to assume it's a real problem
. Given that benchmark has it as a selling point in 2015 I wonder how
often it's accounted for in the competition ?

New test for audiomagazines overload the filter :) (I saw some hydrogen
audio tread where some dude had managed to get such peaks at +11dB )

You can always turn the argument around why . It's actually the
recordings that are broken ?

But imho stuff should have healthy headroom . Just like a preamp should
not collapse at 1.0-2.0 volts (yes they exist ) some robustness against
the digital version this is proper design ,again imo

Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

Julf wrote: 
> If they actually cared about real differences - but that would scare
> away advertisers. Remember it is the advertisers, not the subscribers,
> that pay for the audiorags.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. And as I keep saying, having the headroom (given the word length
> of modern DSP architectures) is not hard.

Yes but are these ovesampling filter chips in most DAC really DSP
processors, they where not in the past they where som hardware
implementation ? DSP would be floating point at some incredible rate and
software then just output to some word length suitable for the DAC chip
? then all is well :)

Funny enough i suspect a phone can best many DAC's in this regards as
they seems to have some really cool DSP onboard (in fact i think my
phone beats my first DAC in every other aspect as well ... )

Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

Mnyb wrote: 
> Yea but is it ? that would be something for audiorags to actually test?

If they actually cared about real differences - but that would scare
away advertisers. Remember it is the advertisers, not the subscribers,
that pay for the audiorags.

> But imho stuff should have healthy headroom . Just like a preamp should
> not collapse at 1.0-2.0 volts (yes they exist ) some robustness against
> the digital version this is proper design ,again imo

Indeed. And as I keep saying, having the headroom (given the word length
of modern DSP architectures) is not hard.

"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-27 Thread utgg

darrenyeats wrote: 
> Thanks Mynb,
> If the aim is not to truncate, the first numbers I expect to pop out are
> binary roots of 65536 (i.e. powers of 2) e.g. 256, 512, ..., 16384,
> 32768. Their absence indicates that avoiding truncation was not a goal
> at all.
> 

The table gain values of 2048 and greater are all multiples of 256. That
means if you multiply 16-bit data by the table values, the least
significant 8 bits of the 32-bit result will be all zeros - so there is
no truncation when the most significant 24 bits are fed to a 24-bit DAC.
The 2048 gain value corresponds to -30.1dB. With lower gain values than
that there is truncation.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-27 Thread Mnyb

utgg wrote: 
> The table gain values of 2048 and greater are all multiples of 256. That
> means if you multiply 16-bit data by the table values, the least
> significant 8 bits of the 32-bit result will be all zeros - so there is
> no truncation when the most significant 24 bits are fed to a 24-bit DAC.
> The 2048 gain value corresponds to -30.1dB. With lower gain values than
> that there is truncation.

Great missed that :) cool that it can be without truncation and still
fairly logaritmic

Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-27 Thread cliveb


darrenyeats wrote: 
> Can you remember where you read that?
Sorry, this goes back to 2005 or 2006. I have tried searching the forums
to find the threads that discussed the firmware updates in detail, but
without success. But I do distinctly remember seeing discussions about
how the volume adjustment had been modified to avoid the need to use the
25th bit for all but extreme attenuation settings.

The one place where this is mentioned in passing is in an exchange
between myself and Patrick Dixon (posts #11 to #16) in this thread:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?28133-Transporter-Confused-about-volume-control/page2

darrenyeats wrote: 
> According to my tests on the TOUCH, vol approx 30-100 seems to obey
> approx 0.5dB per step (which would make vol 40 approx -30db) but below
> 30 the drop off in dB is more rapid.
I can't say anything about the Touch. The firmware change I remember was
for the old players (SB2/3, TP), from way before the Duet or Touch were
introduced.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-27 Thread darrenyeats


Thanks Clive.

To summarise what member utgg has clarified for us, a Touch volume
setting of 40 (~-30db) or higher will be bit perfect with 16 bit
source.

That just leaves us the problem of below Touch volume 39 or less.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-27 Thread Julf

darrenyeats wrote: 
> utgg, do you know where and how could one invoke this function?
> > 
Code:

  >   > 
  > --provide hook for applets to modify the gain curve
  > function overrideDefaultVolumeToGain(self, value)
  > _defaultVolumeToGain = value
  > end
  > 

> > 
> 

As it clearly is a stub function, I assume it gets invoked
automatically, but can be overridden (or modified) to accomplish the
desired mapping.

"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-27 Thread darrenyeats


utgg wrote: 
> The table gain values of 2048 and greater are all multiples of 256.
I missed that. Probably because 256, 512 etc are missing below 2048! Why
on earth try to follow some notional curve when SOME of these were for
the taking?! We could have had some volume settings with non-truncation
down to -48db!
utgg wrote: 
> The 2048 gain value corresponds to -30.1dB.
Yep.

BTW, where and how could one invoke this function?

Code:


  --provide hook for applets to modify the gain curve
  function overrideDefaultVolumeToGain(self, value)
_defaultVolumeToGain = value
  end
  



Thanks, Darren



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-26 Thread darrenyeats


Thanks Mynb. I'm aware the 24th bit is a long way down but then with
30dB of digital attenuation it's nearer 18th bit in practice. I'd like
to either it, just to do it right. Audio nervosa perhaps but let's see
if I can rig up a variable way of doing this ... For me the point (as
for so many tweaks) is that it's technically better. I leave audibility
aside when I have technical reasons.

I have to check whether the [flac] part is really necessary, I added it
in whilst struggling, once I fixed the sox part I didn't try taking out
the flac again! I'll report back if no-one else does.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-26 Thread Mnyb

darrenyeats wrote: 
> Thanks Mynb,
> I didn't realise that Touch used Squeezeplay! That was an important bit
> of knowledge. Wondered where the Touch firmware was on github!
> 
> If the aim is not to truncate, the first numbers I expect to pop out are
> binary roots of 65536 (i.e. powers of 2) e.g. 256, 512, ..., 16384,
> 32768. Their absence indicates that avoiding truncation was not a goal
> at all.
> 
> 

Possibly but it goes to some other code crossfade is done somewhere and
the audiocodecs come in somehow then the OS  ( squeezeos ) and its alsa
process and then the hardware chips . So I would not know honestly .
There is propably something akin to a "driver" for the audio hardware
somewhere to ?
But Playback lua looks like some control program but it does not
actually do the playback or the volume control .

The logaritmic volume curve expressed in 16 bit integers . How is that
curve used later in the process ? I dont know that either ?

Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-26 Thread Mnyb


You can get the source code on github for squeezeplay
(controller,Touch,radio) .

There is a file Playback.lua .

There is 2 volume mappings in here . I dont read LUA so I cant really
figure which one is actually used but there are hundred discrete values
in "16 bit format" full volume is 65536 .
These trace nice logaritmic curves :) very close to each other ( I did
plot them in graph just to see ) .
How these map onto 24bit it cant say . It must be done somewhere else in
the code
Just get the complete file from github if you are familiar with the
programming language . I assume you need more than that to get the full
picture audio decoding is spread amongst a several files and
binaries


Code:


  -- volumeMap has the correct gain settings for volume settings 1-100. Based 
on Boom volume curve
  --todo when this becomes SP device specific move to service method and make 
it per-device 
  local _defaultVolumeToGain = {
  16, 18, 22, 26, 31, 36, 43, 51, 61, 72, 85, 101, 120, 142, 168, 200, 237, 
281, 333, 395, 468, 555, 658, 781, 926, 980, 1037, 1098, 1162, 1230, 1302, 
1378, 1458, 1543, 1634, 1729, 1830, 1937, 2050, 2048, 2304, 2304, 2560, 2816, 
2816, 3072, 3328, 3328, 3584, 3840, 4096, 4352, 4608, 4864, 5120, 5376, 5632, 
6144, 6400, 6656, 7168, 7680, 7936, 8448, 8960, 9472, 9984, 10752, 11264, 
12032, 12544, 13312, 14080, 14848, 15872, 16640, 17664, 18688, 19968, 20992, 
22272, 23552, 24832, 26368, 27904, 29696, 31232, 33024, 35072, 37120, 39424, 
41728, 44032, 46592, 49408, 52224, 55296, 58624, 61952, 65536,
  }
  
  local _serverVolumeToGain = _defaultVolumeToGain -- same since Squeezeplay.pm 
uses Boom curve
  
  --sb2 curve
  --local _serverVolumeToGain = {
  --232, 246, 260, 276, 292, 309, 327, 346, 366, 388, 411, 435, 460, 487, 516, 
546, 578, 612, 648, 686, 726, 769, 814, 862, 912, 966, 1022, 1082, 1146, 1213, 
1284, 1359, 1439, 1523, 1613, 1707, 1807, 1913, 2026, 2048, 2304, 2304, 2560, 
2816, 2816, 3072, 3072, 3328, 3584, 3840, 4096, 4352, 4608, 4864, 5120, 5376, 
5632, 5888, 6400, 6656, 7168, 7424, 7936, 8448, 8960, 9472, 9984, 10496, 11264, 
11776, 12544, 13312, 14080, 14848, 15872, 16640, 17664, 18688, 19712, 20992, 
22272, 23552, 24832, 26368, 27904, 29440, 31232, 33024, 35072, 37120, 39168, 
41472, 44032, 46592, 49408, 52224, 55296, 58368, 61952, 65536,
  --}
  
  --provide hook for applets to modify the gain curve
  function overrideDefaultVolumeToGain(self, value)
_defaultVolumeToGain = value
  end
  



Why would i even have this info ? Our member Peter W ? I think figured
how to fix the volume of the Touch ,before we got a server setting for
it .

In the old source i have its around line 819

decode:audioGain(data.gainL, data.gainR)

Replace it with .

decode:audioGain(65536, 65536)

This of-course makes it possible to put in any other number , But it
would be nice to know how the gain is implemented further down the
code/hardware to be able to use numbers hat dont truncate .




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-26 Thread darrenyeats


Mnyb wrote: 
> You can get the source code on github for squeezeplay
> (controller,Touch,radio) .
> 
> There is a file Playback.lua .
> 
> There is 2 volume mappings in here . I dont read LUA so I cant really
> figure which one is actually used but there are hundred discrete values
> in "16 bit format" full volume is 65536 .
> 
Thanks Mynb,
I didn't realise that Touch used Squeezeplay! That was an important bit
of knowledge. Wondered where the Touch firmware was on github!

If the aim is not to truncate, the first thing I expect to pop on the
list are binary roots of 65536 e.g. 32768, 16384. The fact they're
absent indicates that avoiding truncation was not a goal at all.

This part is interesting:

Code:


  --provide hook for applets to modify the gain curve
  function overrideDefaultVolumeToGain(self, value)
_defaultVolumeToGain = value
  end
  




Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-26 Thread cliveb


darrenyeats wrote: 
> Thanks Mynb. I'm aware the 24th bit is a long way down but then with
> 30dB of digital attenuation it's 18th bit in practice. I'd like to
> dither it, just to do it right. Audio nervosa perhaps but let's see if I
> can rig up a variable way of doing this ... For me the point (as for so
> many tweaks) is that it's technically better.
What are your sources? If they are native 24 bit, then fair enough.
However, if they are mainly 16 bit from CD rips, then you really don't
need to worry about dither. Many years ago the SB and TP firmwares were
updated so that all digital attentuation steps down to about -40dB or so
were arranged such that there was never any fixed point rounding or
truncation of the 16th bit (ie. not until you get down to the point
where the 16th bit becomes the 24th bit).



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-26 Thread Mnyb

cliveb wrote: 
> What are your sources? If they are native 24 bit, then fair enough.
> However, if they are mainly 16 bit from CD rips, then you really don't
> need to worry about dither. Many years ago the SB and TP firmwares were
> updated so that all digital attentuation steps down to about -40dB or so
> were arranged such that there was never any fixed point rounding or
> truncation of the 16th bit (ie. not until you get down to the point
> where the 16th bit becomes the 24th bit).

Thanks for that info , then the noise floor on the rest of your hifi is
the deciding factor of where you are to apply the volume or combinations
thereof . For example with the proper attenuation or gain driving a
power amp directly will be trouble free.

That may also explain my results as my system is a bit different with
another digital volume applied in the speakers given 16 bit sources .
Unless I use to much attenuation in the Touch it will be all the same
for me I just use less digital attenuation in my speakers I even get the
same noise floor , it simply becomes a scaling ( the processor works in
floating point anyway then output 24 bit to the speakers .

Given that in practice no DAC performs better than ~20-21 bit I will not
loose sleep .

Btw I tried the practical resolution of my system . -112 dB signals is
audible with the ear against a speaker driver and full volume .
Much less sitting in the listening position with ambient noise etc can
not remember the exact number still at full volume. If don't want to
blow of your ears and play extremely loud I'm quite sure not even 16 bit
is archived in practice in a home setting unless you have an  anechoic
chamber test chamber . Doing this test with your typical listening
volume will usually result that you can't hear signals -70-80dB down .
That is a test signal in isolation not masked by any music it gets
totally quiet !

That get us around to the original subject of the tread , how are we
supposed to hear all the wonderful improvements below say -130 dB :)
they must be there as they are " unmeasurable " according to the cult
practitioners as all objectivist fails to find them .

Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-26 Thread darrenyeats

cliveb wrote: 
> What are your sources? If they are native 24 bit, then fair enough.
> However, if they are mainly 16 bit from CD rips, then you really don't
> need to worry about dither. Many years ago the SB and TP firmwares were
> updated so that all digital attentuation steps down to about -40dB or so
> were arranged such that there was never any fixed point rounding or
> truncation of the 16th bit (ie. not until you get down to the point
> where the 16th bit becomes the 24th bit).
Can you remember where you read that?

According to my tests on the TOUCH, vol approx 30-100 seems to obey
approx 0.5dB per step (which would make vol 40 approx -30db) but below
30 the drop off in dB is more rapid.

0.5dB per step is what I've seen quoted for SB/Transporter. I calculate
for 16 bit source this would be possible only down to 30db assuming 12
volume steps = 1 bit. (Some intermediate volume steps between 40, 28,
16, 4, 0 would require truncation, there just aren't enough bits to
preserve fractional bjt shifts down there.)

But all this assumes that the Touch is similar, and it appears that's
not a given! Does anyone have info on the Touch specifically?

Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-25 Thread darrenyeats


Mnyb wrote: 
> It's a 24 bit volume control dithering may be academic in those cases
> may actually not be needed in practice .
> I don't think for example a SB3 or transporter has the horsepower to run
> a dither algorithm ,so yes I think I actually read years ago that it is
> undithered .
> 
> But for example the practical noise level in the analog out of Touch
> makes it a practical 17-18 bit device or what was it ?
Mynb,
Your comment stung me, I really thought otherwise and it's bothered me
since.

I think* I've managed to attenuate with dither, albeit in a fixed
fashion, by doing this in convert.conf and setting the regular volume to
100.

In convert.conf, set the "flc flc" line as follows:

flc flc * *
[flac] -dcs $START$ $END$ -- $FILE$ | [sox] -q -t wav - -t flac
-C 0 $RESAMPLE$ - gain -30 dither

Replace -30 with whatever dB of attenuation you want.
Darren

PS: *If anyone can confirm this, I'd appreciate it.



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

SB Touch

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-25 Thread Mnyb

darrenyeats wrote: 
> Mynb,
> Your comment stung me, I really thought otherwise and it's bothered me
> since.
> 
> I think* I've managed to attenuate with dither, albeit in a fixed
> fashion, by doing this in convert.conf and setting the regular volume to
> 100.
> 
> In convert.conf, set the "flc flc" line as follows:
> 
> flc flc * *
> [flac] -dcs $START$ $END$ -- $FILE$ | [sox] -q -t wav - -t flac
> -C 0 $RESAMPLE$ - gain -30 dither
> 
> Replace -30 with whatever dB of attenuation you want. Beware since
> non-FLAC files will still play at full volume!
> Darren
> 
> PS: *If anyone can confirm this is doing dither as it should, I'd
> appreciate it.

Ok but why ? Was it you that always had a constant upsamling going on or
was it some other member . Or is t to defeat potential intersample overs
? I have for the last months tried to find out if I can produce any
awerse of positive effect by not running the volume on the Touch at 100%
when using its digital out to my Meridian system , just for these
intersample overs . My processor is designed in 2004 so circuits for
upsample may not be the most modern ( it samples everything to 24/96
before applying volume and DRC , dithered volume ;) ).

But it I have not done the most rigorous testing so it's still a null
result I'm yet to hear any difference on any recording .
Nb this will only manifest if a recording is such that it would provoke
this issue in the filter and if my over sample filter is sensitive to
this .

Another effect , I'm now also personally convinced that the squeezeboxes
volume control is transparent for human listeners at least at the higher
volume settings regardless of how it's actually done in the software :)
depending on total system gain it's probably fine all the way down ! on
CD material the "problem" of no dither will probably only manifest when
reaching bit 16 of 24 that's probably at a fairly low volume . ( cd
stuff is padded with 8 zero bits by The player to make it 24 bit ).

I'm ofcourse open to be totally wrong , that would not be the first time
! Anyone with more insight on the squeezeboxes volume control .

Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-10-25 Thread Mnyb

Mnyb wrote: 
> Ok but why ? Was it you that always had a constant upsamling going on or
> was it some other member . Or is t to defeat potential intersample overs
> ? I have for the last months tried to find out if I can produce any
> awerse of positive effect by not running the volume on the Touch at 100%
> when using its digital out to my Meridian system , just for these
> intersample overs . My processor is designed in 2004 so circuits for
> upsample may not be the most modern ( it samples everything to 24/96
> before applying volume and DRC , dithered volume ;) ).
> 
> But it I have not done the most rigorous testing so it's still a null
> result I'm yet to hear any difference on any recording .
> Nb this will only manifest if a recording is such that it would provoke
> this issue in the filter and if my over sample filter is sensitive to
> this .
> 
> Another effect , I'm now also personally convinced that the squeezeboxes
> volume control is transparent for human listeners at least at the higher
> volume settings regardless of how it's actually done in the software :)
> depending on total system gain it's probably fine all the way down ! on
> CD material the "problem" of no dither will probably only manifest when
> reaching bit 16 of 24 that's probably at a fairly low volume . ( cd
> stuff is padded with 8 zero bits by The player to make it 24 bit ).
> 
> I'm ofcourse open to be totally wrong , that would not be the first time
> ! Anyone with more insight on the squeezeboxes volume control .

An instance of being totally wrong , when I was afflicted with the
audiophile bug I was convinced that 100% volume was the only way and bit
perfect was paramount to perfect sound. Well in some settings with many
DAC it can still be the best practice to run the system bitperfect  at
100% volume no doubt about that . But a slip on the volume control from
100% to 99% would not have a catastrophic effect on sq ;) in fact if you
compensate the volume reduction elsewhere you can't even hear the
difference.

This way of thinking can arise from when you used a computer as a source
then bitperfect output was also achieved when you managed to bypass
Windows kmixer and other horrible stuff on your OS . So bitperfect out
was achieved at the same time as defeating badly implemented resampling
etc .

Otherwise a good 24 bit volume control with dither should in every way
be superior to an analog one , as it behaves as an ideal analog control
for a fraction of the price . Besides try to keep channel balance in a
5.1 or 7.1 system in any other way

Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-30 Thread arnyk


jkeny wrote: 
 Oh, the fact that the Regen has been reported to improve every digital
 audio device it was used with, escaped you? If it improves these devices
 they must therefore not be transparent  therefore broken according to
 your statement. The obvious conclusion, based on your logic, is that all
 these devices couldn't be broken - hence the Regen is  snakeoil
 
 The fact that the Regen is $199 delivered also escaped your notice 
 again that it [COLOR=#33]magically solves all imaginable problems
 as has been cynically stated on this forum before?
 
 


Interesting information about the economics of marketing small
electronics on the web:

http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=36doc_id=1327192;

Key comment:

In September 2012, motivated by some of these success stories we
decided to launch a new single board computer project called Parallella
on Kickstarter. The campaign ended up raising $898,921 from 4,965
backers in less than a month. On the surface this looked like a huge
success, but over the next two years we ended up spending more than $1.5
million to deliver on all of our Kickstarter commitments.

18441

The Regen appears to fit most closely with the middle column of numbers.

Note the Minimum units for break even, which appears to be well in
excess of anything reported publicly for the Regen.

Simple logic suggests that if it is profitable, it is because it
development costs are far less or its profit per unit is far more.


+---+
|Filename: Andreas-1-Labor-costs.jpg|
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18441|
+---+


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-16 Thread arnyk


jh901 wrote: 
 I
 
 If seeing the forest for the trees by your account necessitates adhering
 to Hydrogen Audio dogma, then I'll stick with the, er, sticks.  
 

There is no such unique thing as Hydrogen Audio Dogma. By claiming
otherwise, you show your ignorance of the issue or at least willingness
to reduce the matter to dogmatic posturing. 

There is however the small matter of science, for which you appear to
have very limited knowlege of or respect for.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-15 Thread arnyk


Archimago wrote: 
 Well Arny,
 All I can say is, it looks like you dodged a bullet... Serinus didn't
 call you a pathetic girly man. :-)

I have two sons that are probably about the same age as he, one with a
PhD in Cancer Research, and the other with a MBA and dual BS in
Environmental Engineering and Chemical Engineering. I've obviously,
shall we say gently applied corporal punishment to better men than he
and that ain't just whistling Dixie!  If he doesn't give me respect I'll
sick my daughter on him, who is a kickboxer with a PhD in Cancer
research. ;-)



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-15 Thread jh901


arnyk wrote: 
 The poor guy grew  up (if you can call it that) an irrational
 subjectivist who lives in a multidimensional logic-tight box, what can I
 say?
 
 I'll bet money JH you can't possibly see that, something about seeing
 the forest for the trees...

I blame my parents.  

If seeing the forest for the trees by your account necessitates adhering
to Hydrogen Audio dogma, then I'll stick with the, er, sticks.  

As far as I know Jason's career writing about music has turned out ok. 
Presumably, he's very happy.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | Rule of Thirds for
speaker  sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-15 Thread ralphpnj


jh901 wrote: 
 I blame my parents.  
 
 If seeing the forest for the trees by your account necessitates adhering
 to Hydrogen Audio dogma, then I'll stick with the, er, sticks.  
 
 As far as I know Jason's career writing about music has turned out ok. 
 Presumably, he's very happy.

Not to knock Jason but anyone writing for any print periodical
publication in 2015 does not have much in the way of a career. The
internet has pretty much put all print periodical publications on life
support and as yet no one has figured out how to generate real income
with an online publication since most people feel that anything and
everything on the internet is free or else can be found for free.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. 
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1  Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
 Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose  Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-15 Thread jh901


arnyk wrote: 
 I've obviously, shall we say gently applied corporal punishment to
 better men than he and that ain't just whistling Dixie! 

I'm sure Jason's parents are pleased that you feel so strongly that your
adult children turned out to be better men than he.  Perhaps you could
find out where they went wrong and then let us know.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-15 Thread arnyk


jh901 wrote: 
 I'm sure Jason's parents are pleased that you feel so strongly that your
 adult children turned out to be better men than he.  Perhaps you could
 find out where they went wrong and then let us know.

The poor guy grew  up (if you can call it that) an irrational
subjectivist who lives in a multidimensional logic-tight box, what can I
say?

I'll bet money JH you can't possibly see that, something about seeing
the forest for the trees...



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


bonze wrote: 
 Oh dear, another that runs out of anything useful to say, so resorts to
 personal insults.

At this point I think his *-tells-* seem to have painted a fairly
detailed picture of who he is.

He obviously knows very little about audio technology and is incapable
of forming and expressing lucid word pictures about it.

He feels threatened by people who are more comfortable with audio
technology and those people make him fearful and angry.

He does not reread his own posts and notice how much his posts paint a
picture of their author being exactly the person he describes in hateful
ways.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-14 Thread Mnyb


arnyk wrote: 
 At this point I think his *-tells-* seem to have painted a fairly
 detailed picture of who he is.
 
 He obviously knows very little about audio technology and is incapable
 of forming and expressing lucid word pictures about it.
 
 He feels threatened by people who are more comfortable with audio
 technology and those people make him fearful and angry.
 
 He does not reread his own posts and notice how much his posts paint a
 picture of their author being exactly the person he describes in hateful
 ways.

You have not been on this forum that long have you seen his older treads
? where he for example claims audible differences between server OS when
used as LMS server . He can not grasp the concept that a squeezebox is
not a soundcard with a long cable and that its server agnostic and works
in completely different manner . The LMS server in itself does not need
to have any working audio at all .

He latest questions is in line with this way of thinking the buffer dont
store bass treble and musicality separately it's only data ffs :D an
error here would be very unlikely to target treble soundstage or
whatever . but rather give you dropouts glitches static etc ..

So yes he should measure that himself and present how he did that . in
line with extraordinary claims must have extraordinary evidence .




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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Mnyb wrote: 
 You have not been on this forum that long have you seen his older treads
 ?.

My SB join date is public knowledge. 

I bet that you know that this guy's name is Legion. (Biblical reference
for the post modern crowd)

You can just about rank audio forums by the percentage of people who are
as out-of-touch and anti-science as he appears to be with Computer
Audiophile being near the max, and Hydrogen Audio being near the
minimum. and AVS being some place in between.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-14 Thread Mnyb


arnyk wrote: 
 My SB join date is public knowledge. 
 
 I bet that you know that this guy's name is Legion. (Biblical reference
 for the post modern crowd)
 
 You can just about rank audio forums by the percentage of people who are
 as out-of-touch and anti-science as he appears to be with Computer
 Audiophile being near the max, and Hydrogen Audio being near the
 minimum. and AVS being some place in between.

Just saying that his most silly stuff is couple of years back nothing
else, take my word for it it would be utter waste of anyones time to go
back and read that . Agree about the rest .

Computer Audiophile is even worse than delusional I've seen some article
shilling a certain cable brand ( I cant find it anymoore maybe they
stopped paying so it's down )




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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-14 Thread Archimago


Mnyb wrote: 
 Just saying that his most silly stuff is couple of years back nothing
 else, take my word for it it would be utter waste of anyone#8217;s time
 to go back and read that . Agree about the rest .
 
 Computer Audiophile is even worse than delusional I've seen some article
 shilling a certain cable brand ( I cant find it anymoore maybe they
 stopped paying so it's down )

Well, when it comes to SBGK, I notice that he tends to disappear once
one confronts him with request for details on his testing method and
what he bases his conclusions on.

As for CA. Such an unfortunate state of affairs. I think in its early
days many of the topics were useful and reality-based. There were some
excellent articles by folks like Mitchco looking at room treatments,
speaker digital XO's and such as examples of the value of some articles.
Seems like an excellent example of how trying to turn it into a
financial venture and the need to court advertisers and cater to the
'needs' of certain manufacturers leads to acceptance and ultimately the
'shilling' of questionable products. I guess when you go visit the
manufacturers in S. Korea, France, etc. this kind of thing happens???

On another note... Notice the latest posting on AudioStream today? Hmmm,
a step in the right direction? Of course, I've been banned from posting
for some reason even though I don't think I was rude or terribly
argumentative!

No one in their right mind dismisses the importance of objective
attributes when it comes to the design and manufacturer of audio
components. And no one in their right mind would dismiss the importance
of measurements after-the-fact in determining if a given component is
performing up to spec.

I certainly would have thanked him for starting to take a more balanced
view...



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-14 Thread ralphpnj


Archimago wrote: 
 Well, when it comes to SBGK, I notice that he tends to disappear once
 one confronts him with request for details on his testing method and
 what he bases his conclusions on.
 
 As for CA. Such an unfortunate state of affairs. I think in its early
 days many of the topics were useful and reality-based. There were some
 excellent articles by folks like Mitchco looking at room treatments,
 speaker digital XO's and such as examples of the value of some articles.
 Seems like an excellent example of how trying to turn it into a
 financial venture and the need to court advertisers and cater to the
 'needs' of certain manufacturers leads to acceptance and ultimately the
 'shilling' of questionable products. I guess when you go visit the
 manufacturers in S. Korea, France, etc. this kind of thing happens???
 
 On another note... Notice the latest posting on AudioStream today? Hmmm,
 a step in the right direction? Of course, I've been banned from posting
 for some reason even though I don't think I was rude or terribly
 argumentative!
 
 No one in their right mind dismisses the importance of objective
 attributes when it comes to the design and manufacturer of audio
 components. And no one in their right mind would dismiss the importance
 of measurements after-the-fact in determining if a given component is
 performing up to spec.
 
 I certainly would have thanked him for starting to take a more balanced
 view...

Archimago I believe that the developments at AudioStream kind of
mirrored what happen over at Computer Audiophile in that AudioStream
started off somewhat reality based but soon (a much faster turn around
than CA) began to wave that audiophile flag loudly and proudly. But I
can understand why both CA and AudioStream when down the audiophile
rabbit hole - MONEY

On a related note, why is that the vast majority of subjectivists only
seem to respect subjective and sighted listening tests that yield those
infamous night and day improvements/differences/what-have-yous and not
the subjective and sighted listening tests that reach the conclusions
that there is no difference? For example on this little forum that are
many of us who hear absolutely no difference between well made and
properly functioning USB cables, so why is that subjective observation
dismissed but the ones that claim to hear a difference not only not
dismissed but even revered.

The main reason that I switched from the subjectivist camp over to the
objectivist camp is that after awhile I could no longer hear any real or
important difference between cables, speaker wires, power cords,
electrical outlets, power conditions, etc. Sure I can hear differences
between speakers and headphones but the difference between the sound of
my Headroom amp with the standard DAC and power supply versus my
Headroom amp with the upgraded power supply and DAC (yes I have two
different Headroom DAC/amps) are not only NOT night and day but in
fact may not just not be there at all. Now don't get me wrong in that
the two amps could very well measure slightly different but those
measurable differences just don't seem to translate into audible
differences.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Archimago wrote: 
  
 Notice the latest posting on AudioStream today? 
 

A criticism of the common audiophile definitions of objectivist and
subjectivist was the opening shot in my HE2005 debate with Atkinson.

Hey, its only 10 years later and Atkinson's disciples are beginning to
understand my schtick!

 
 Hmmm, a step in the right direction?
 

I remember its current proprietor when he was just another poster on the
Stereophile forum. I am unsure if he is rational enough to step in the
right direction and play his stereo at the same time.

 
 Of course, I've been banned from posting for some reason even though I
 don't think I was rude or terribly argumentative!
 

Of course. Subjectivists have to be in control or else some objectivist 
weisenheimer will hand them their heads on a platter.

 
 No one in their right mind dismisses the importance of objective
 attributes when it comes to the design and manufacturer of audio
 components. And no one in their right mind would dismiss the importance
 of measurements after-the-fact in determining if a given component is
 performing up to spec.
 

That's a long way from a real-world psychoacoustically-based
understanding of the relationship of measurements and how the ear/brain
work.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-14 Thread ralphpnj


Archimago wrote: 
 Hey there Arny, oh yeah that Atkinson exchange from a decade back. I
 remember reading the 'writeup in Stereophile'
 (http://www.stereophile.com/news/050905debate/#l5EmtBLf2VFx0h18.97)
 (Jason Victor Serinus, oi) and other audiophile places... I see it's on
 YouTube. Will need to have a good listen tonight to really try to
 understand how it went :-)

Remember what I wrote about how written history and the actual events
often have little in common? I would watch the video and then read
Stereophile's write up with a very, very big grain of salt.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


ralphpnj wrote: 
 Remember what I wrote about how written history and the actual events
 often have little in common? I would watch the video and then read
 Stereophile's write up with a very, very big grain of salt.

The audio recording is accurate.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-14 Thread Archimago


Well Arny,
All I can say is, it looks like you dodged a bullet... Serinus didn't
call you a pathetic girly man. :-)



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-14 Thread Archimago


arnyk wrote: 
 A criticism of the common audiophile definitions of objectivist and
 subjectivist was the opening shot in my HE2005 debate with Atkinson.
 
 Hey, its only 10 years later and Atkinson's disciples are beginning to
 understand my schtick!
 
 
 
 I remember its current proprietor when he was just another poster on the
 Stereophile forum. I am unsure if he is rational enough to step in the
 right direction and play his stereo at the same time.
 
 
 
 Of course. Subjectivists have to be in control or else some objectivist 
 weisenheimer will hand them their heads on a platter.
 
 
 
 That's a long way from a real-world psychoacoustically-based
 understanding of the relationship of measurements and how the ear/brain
 work.

Hey there Arny, oh yeah that Atkinson exchange from a decade back. I
remember reading the 'writeup in Stereophile'
(http://www.stereophile.com/news/050905debate/#l5EmtBLf2VFx0h18.97)
(Jason Victor Serinus, oi) and other audiophile places... I see it's on
YouTube. Will need to have a good listen tonight to really try to
understand how it went :-)

https://youtu.be/oyaWMpnhusA



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


jkeny wrote: 
 
 What I suggest is that Archi  friends don't close their mind to trying
 different USB cables  maybe different USB ports.\

jkeny why don't you show us how this open-minded thing is done by
opening your mind to objective tests and reliable subjective tests?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


jkeny wrote: 
 I said any measurements that may emerge will be just another point of
 argument for the objectionists (not proof) - we all know that! 
 

It is well known that *-anything-* can be argued about, so criticizing
objective tests on the grounds that they will spur arguments is
obviously false and dishonest.

We can criticize motherhood and apple pie on the same grounds, so you
want to do away with them?  LOL!

 
 The truth will be found by listening - something you fail to admit or
 recognise - it's a ridiculous position.

Given jkeny your denial of the obvious and fatal problems with listening
tests as you seem to want them to be performed, it is hard to imagine
what truth could possibly be found.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


SBGK wrote: 
 I changed the buffer sizes in my Touch and hear enhanced high
 frequencies with smaller values and reduced high frequencies with larger
 buffers, has anyone tried to measure this effect ? It should be possible
 to measure frequency differences.


Why don't you run your own tests?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


SBGK wrote: 
 thing is your understanding of physics is flawed, the theories don't
 match reality. Unless you think that everyone who hears any differences
 in digital playback is hearing things. Just like the global warming
 theories haven't predicted the stall in global temperatures the theories
 of digital audio can't predict the differences people hear.

Quite. But psychoacoustics can. And will.

SBGK wrote: 
 real science would be trying to come up with theories to match the
 evidence rather than ridiculing the evidence.

This is clearly a misunderstanding. You seem to confuse 'observations'
with 'evidence'. Evidence is what proves that observations reflect
actual reality.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


jkeny wrote: 
 
 What I suggest is that Archi  friends don't close their mind to trying*
 different USB cables*  maybe different USB ports.

Very unlikely thats not how things work . If broken yes , There are old
post where Archimago measures and listen several USB cables . They dont
seem to affect the output of any of his DAC's hence there will be no
difference to hear* .

But certainly include them in the controlled test just as a fringe
possibility he have not used the regen before so the variables are not
the same . Thats the piont with subjektive evaluation . A DBT *is*
actually a subjektive evaluation with as much bias as possible removed
.
Is this a well built USB2/3 spec cable or some exotic design ? It's a
god to use a qaulity cable that adheres to spec. It does not have to be
very expensive , I fear that some of the more expensive exotic stuff are
actually worse (woo woo design involved) or does nothing .

* They measure the same . Hope we all can agree that if its measures the
same it is the same othervise we truly are in magical unicorn land .
Then burden of prof is on people who thinks identical soundwaves can
sound different for other reasons than bias and placebo effects .




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD  SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-13 Thread SBGK


I changed the buffer sizes in my Touch and hear enhanced high
frequencies with smaller values and reduced high frequencies with larger
buffers, has anyone tried to measure this effect ? It should be possible
to measure frequency differences.



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-13 Thread Archimago

rgro wrote:
I'm mostly with you guys, but wouldn't it be interesting to have a
really well-educated audiophile priest or rabbi chime in here with some
balancing thoughts on the place of faith in human societies? It's not
all just one big high-functioning computer out thereor is it?

Well, I'm no rabbi or priest, but I do think there is a place for -faith
in one's life-. And hopefully in doing so, a better society.

However, we do have to know the limits of faith. I see faith as giving
us motivation, inspiration, drive, dreams, sense of morality and
ultimately purpose. But these are high level subjective concepts along
the lines of what's your favourite musical genre? or what's your
favourite book? or describe the most joyful think you have ever done
or who do you love most in this world? Perhaps science can one day
elucidate the neural mechanisms for these concepts and ideas, but until
then, nothing wrong with maintaining the wonder and joy around these
subjective intangibles of what gives us our -personalities-.

I think in a nutshell, this is Stephen Jay Gould's NOMA
(Non-Overlapping Magisteria) concept as he puts it in the book '\Rocks
of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life\'
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/034545040X/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8camp=1789creative=390957creativeASIN=034545040XlinkCode=as2tag=archsmusi-20linkId=ZJ6SDFEMUJRKBRVC).
Give to God what is God's and Science what is Science's... (At least in
terms of framework for understanding and ways of knowing truth.)

And I think it's pretty fair to say that sound quality as rendered by
technological machines is well within the magisterium of Science. :-)

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-13 Thread rgro

Archimago wrote:
Well, I'm no rabbi or priest, but I do think there is a place for -faith
in one's life-. And hopefully in doing so, a better society.

However, we do have to know the limits of faith. I see faith as giving
us motivation, inspiration, drive, dreams, sense of morality and
ultimately purpose. But these are high level subjective concepts along
the lines of what's your favourite musical genre? or what's your
favourite book? or describe the most joyful thing you have ever done
or who do you love most in this world? Perhaps science can one day
elucidate the neural mechanisms for these concepts and ideas, but until
then, nothing wrong with maintaining the wonder and joy around these
subjective intangibles of what gives us our -personalities-.

And I think it's pretty fair to say that sound quality as rendered by
technological machines is well within the magisterium of Science. :-)

Very well said!!

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-13 Thread bonze


arnyk wrote: 
 Why don't you run your own tests?
You should know by now that those were his thorough tests.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-13 Thread SBGK


arnyk wrote: 
 Why don't you run your own tests?
 
 You've said the following:
 
 real science would be trying to come up with theories to match the
 evidence rather than ridiculing the evidence.
 
 can you back those brave words up with relevant action?

there is enough anecdotal evidence from people round the planet who have
changed buffer sizes in asio, wasapi, alsa to be certain that there is
an effect. If abx showed there wasn't an effect then that would be a
reflection on abx testing.

When I broached the subject before on this forum the objectivists would
say I was hearing things and bits are bits, but now we have accepted
that usb can create an 8khz noise due to frame noise then I am
theorizing that the same thing is happening when buffer sizes are
changed ie a frame noise component is being tuned.

The question I had was can this be measured ? It's fairly obvious to me
that frequency output differs with buffer size and now there seems to be
a theory that would back that finding.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


SBGK wrote: 
 there is enough anecdotal evidence from people round the planet who have
 changed buffer sizes in asio, wasapi, alsa to be certain that there is
 an effect. 

Just like there is more than enough anecdotal evidence that unicorns
exist.

 The question I had was can this be measured?

Depends on what this is.

 It's fairly obvious to me that frequency output differs with buffer size
 and now there seems to be a theory that would back that finding.

What, exactly, is your theory? Would it be possible to state it in
precise terms that can be discussed?

What does frequency output differs mean? That the frequency response
is altered? Or that there is some sort of frequency shift?

I really wish people wouldn't try to use technical terms if they don't
understand them.



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-13 Thread rgro


I'm mostly with you guys, but wouldn't it be interesting to have a
really well-educated audiophile priest or rabbi chime in here with some
balancing thoughts on the place of faith in human societies?  It's not
all just one big high-functioning computer out thereor is it?



Rg

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-13 Thread jh901


Gandhi wrote: 
 
 
 Wouldn't selling transparent stuff for a reasonable price be a very
 strange scam?

Your transparency mantra is hilarious.  I'm not sure how you convinced
yourself, but I can see where it is convenient for you.  Note that when
I hit play that the reproduced sound is extraordinary.  None of gear
is broken or otherwise deliberately designed with flaws.  What you hear
at home is mediocrity if you are lucky.  Transparency and all.  Send a
local forum member my way via messaging.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


jh901 wrote: 
 Your transparency mantra is hilarious.  I'm not sure how you convinced
 yourself, but I can see where it is convenient for you.  Note that when
 I hit play that the reproduced sound is extraordinary.  None of the
 gear is broken or otherwise deliberately designed with flaws.  What you
 hear at home is mediocrity if you are lucky.  Transparency and all.  And
 science.  
 
 Send a local forum member my way to report back to you.  Prepare a new
 tactic in the meantime.

That you like the sound so much does not really imply that its
reproduced . I would count using vacuum tubes as flawed especially any
brand that's ever done a 300B amp like Cary, to use tube *is* to design
with flaws.

And it the big scheme it's not strange at all the humans believe weird
things audiophiledom is a very small thing , look up the newest diet or
go to a health store , swim with dolphins deny climate change/evolution,
fake cancer treatments homepathy, religions, racism the list goes on .

As in US where only 60% do not believe in evolution that mean that about
a hundred million people are even more fooled than audiophiles ! To only
be an audiophile is to have a very limited flaw in the perception off
reality . it's not at all strange that there is a whole
cult/hobby/business grown around this .
It is perfectly within human nature and we all get caught up in
something similar from time to time . The key here is critical
thinking to realise Im I drinking the cool aid now ?

So the big picture is that probably 90 of the human population hold
some very very weird belief or opinon of some sort close to their hearts
, we are simply not built to experience reality as is, every
experience we have a re prefiltered via our subconsius/brain etc . We
need a toolbox sometimes call it the scientific method . So that all
audiophiles are missguided is not a very preposterous claim at all .

Do you really think that the scientific method can be wrong regarding
audio and at the same time be right about the medicine you use ? or why
your car work or why your computers works (wonder why no one yet
proposed that my excell spreadsheets would compute better with tube
power supply ) .
It's a method and a system it is not limited to audio .




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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Gandhi wrote: 
 Very interesting! You always link to such high quality articles. How do
 you even find them?

Thanks - but they seem to find me :)

I guess I am lucky in having some interesting friends who forward/post a
wide variety of stuff - but I have to use google (or duckduckgo,
actually), as it is often a case of I remember seeing something about
that...



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Mnyb wrote: 
 I've heard a lot of youtube lectures on this topic . But i have not yet
 bougth the book
 
 http://www.michaelshermer.com/the-believing-brain/
 

Gaawd, for a minute I thought the link pointed to a book by Michael
Fremer! But now I feel better.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

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accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Julf wrote: 
 'were not wired to think scientifically'
 (http://eatingacademy.com/personal/wired-think-scientifically-can-done)
 

I wonder about one thing. We invented the scientific principle 400 years
ago. (But perhaps the chinese actually invented it much earlier? They
were really good mathematicians 6,000 years ago, I think. Western
history books seldom include their history.) I find it hard to believe
that suddenly a mutation that allowed scientific thinking rapidly spread
over the world at that time. We must have been able to think like that a
long, long time, even if we didn't do that on a great scale. Has any
proof ever been produced that says that we have changed at all for
thousands of years? Since agriculture was invented 11,000 years ago we
have adapted to new food. But our mental capacity? Since the 1960s
(IIRC) we have started developing better concentration skills (bigger
working memory), because of the increasing amount of information we are
exposed to. That is said to translate directly to abstract intelligence.
So according to neurocognition scientists, humans get more intelligent
by the decade, because of our environment. This curve has a name, which
I have forgotten. But did this perhaps already start 400 years ago? If
so, could it have been the greater cities with more impressions, the
invention of the printing press and possibly time to read because of
better living conditions in general (if they were actually improved)?
Just thinking out loud...



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Julf wrote: 
 We are not genetically equipped to think logically or scientifically;
 such thinking is a very recent tool of our species that must be learned
 and, with great effort, overwritten. Furthermore, its likely that we
 are programmed to identify and replicate the behavior of others, rather
 than think independently, and independent thought may actually cause
 emotional distress.

That is one part of it - the other is that we live in a society
increasingly dependent on technology, but with a very small, and
decreasing, percentage of us being able to actually understand it. It
does seem Clarke's third law applies - Any sufficiently advanced
technology is indistinguishable from magic. So if you don't understand
the technology, you think of it as magic - and what is the difference
between a magic shiny translucent iThingamajig that transfers music from
thousands of miles away in a millisecond, and fairies riding unicorns at
that point?



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Mnyb wrote: 
 Yes I frequent sceptic websites to and are an active sceptic locally.

I was at the founding meeting of the Finnish association of sceptics
back in the day, but found them a bit too fanatical. I am a supporter of
CSI (the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry), and do subscribe to the
Sceptical Inquirer.

 Dr. Shermer also provides the neuroscience behind our beliefs.

Michael Shermer is a great writer and researcher. But my personal
favourite scam exposers are Penn Jillette and Teller. Their 'Water
Bottle Survey' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFKT4jvN4OEhttp://) is
definitely relevant to this discussion...



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Julf wrote: 
 'were not wired to think scientifically'
 (http://eatingacademy.com/personal/wired-think-scientifically-can-done)
 
 We are not genetically equipped to think logically or scientifically;
 such thinking is a very recent tool of our species that must be learned
 and, with great effort, overwritten. Furthermore, its likely that we
 are programmed to identify and replicate the behavior of others, rather
 than think independently, and independent thought may actually cause
 emotional distress.

Yes it's is an unnatural and learned way to think and act rationally .

I do think 1 years is recent homo sapiens has been around circa
19 years . The scientific method may have been formalised very
recently in it's current most stringent , and thus effective form very
effective newton maxwell eistein planc et al had not been possible
otherwise .

But science is our check and balance otherwise we *will* believe in
rubbish we are doomed to it by nature .




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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


jh901 wrote: 
 It makes more sense to you that any number of thousands of audiophiles
 from Japan, Germany, France, UK, Canada, US, etc are brainwashed than
 the far more obvious conclusion which is that you aren't interested in
 understanding why the gear which I would likely buy reproduces recorded
 music so much better than mass produced stuff in you would buy.  Nah! 
 It's all the most epic business scam of all-time.  Science.

'were not wired to think scientifically'
(http://eatingacademy.com/personal/wired-think-scientifically-can-done)

We are not genetically equipped to think logically or scientifically;
such thinking is a very recent tool of our species that must be learned
and, with great effort, overwritten. Furthermore, its likely that we
are programmed to identify and replicate the behavior of others, rather
than think independently, and independent thought may actually cause
emotional distress.



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


I've heard a lot of youtube lectures on this topic . But i have not yet
bougth the book

http://www.michaelshermer.com/the-believing-brain/

Yes I frequent sceptic websites to and are an active sceptic locally .

Quote from it:


We form our beliefs for a variety of subjective, personal, emotional,
and psychological reasons in the context of environments created by
family, friends, colleagues, culture, and society at large; after
forming our beliefs we then defend, justify, and rationalize them with a
host of intellectual reasons, cogent arguments, and rational
explanations. Beliefs come first, explanations for beliefs follow.

Dr. Shermer also provides the neuroscience behind our beliefs. The brain
is a belief engine. From sensory data flowing in through the senses the
brain naturally begins to look for and find patterns, and then infuses
those patterns with meaning. The first process Dr. Shermer calls
*patternicity*: the tendency to find meaningful patterns in both
meaningful and meaningless data. The second process he calls
*agenticity:* the tendency to infuse patterns with meaning, intention,
and agency.

We cant help believing. Our brains evolved to connect the dots of our
world into meaningful patterns that explain why things happen. These
meaningful patterns become beliefs. Once beliefs are formed the brain
begins to look for and find confirmatory evidence in support of those
beliefs, which adds an emotional boost of further confidence in the
beliefs and thereby accelerates the process of reinforcing them, and
round and round the process goes in a positive feedback loop of belief
confirmation..





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Bedroom/Office: Boom
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Julf wrote: 
 'were not wired to think scientifically'
 (http://eatingacademy.com/personal/wired-think-scientifically-can-done)
 

Very interesting! You always link to such high quality articles. How do
you even find them?



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Mnyb wrote: 
 will[/B] believe in rubbish we are doomed to it by nature .

There is always faith and authority...



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Mnyb wrote: 
 That you like the sound so much does not really imply that its
 reproduced . I would count using vacuum tubes as flawed especially any
 brand that's ever done a 300B amp like Cary, to use tube *is* to design
 with flaws.
 

I think that what is going on with our science-hating correspondent is
that he figured out all by himself on his own that it is pretty easy to
turn the usual scientistic rhetoric around and get a reaction from many
people of a scientific orientation that way.

What he posts is actually meaningless to him, it is just empty rhetoric
that he contrived to reinforce his need to feel superior.

We might just wait for him to say something that he actually believes
in... ;-)



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


SBGK wrote: 
 there is enough anecdotal evidence from people round the planet who have
 changed buffer sizes in asio, wasapi, alsa to be certain that there is
 an effect. 

I guess you didn't get the memo - anecdotal evidence is scientifically
speaking worthless.

Here are just a few ideas that were supported by anecdotal evidence from
millions of people:

(1) Flat earth

(2) Phlogiston.

(3) Earth is the center of the universe

etc., etc.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

jh901 wrote:
Your transparency mantra is hilarious. I'm not sure how you convinced
yourself, but I can see where it is convenient for you. Note that when
I hit play that the reproduced sound is extraordinary. None of the
gear is broken or otherwise deliberately designed with flaws. What you
hear at home is mediocrity if you are lucky. Transparency and all. And
science.

I'm sure the sound at your place is extraordinary. You seem to have
better speakers plus a larger and more treated listening room. In fact I
would like to check out your system first hand, but unfortunately I live
half a world away.

But speakers and room are mainly the reasons that you have such a great
sound.

Since pissing contests obviously are very important to you, I quickly
checked the published measurements of our respective gear that I could
find. I easily conclude that, except for your speakers (presumably), my
system actually measures better. This is because of your tube preamp,
which colors the sound. Even J.A. was a little disappointed.

SOURCECOMPONENTS
http://www.stereophile.com/content/cary-audio-design-cd-306-sacd-professional-version-sacdcd-player-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/slim-devices-transporter-network-music-player-measurements

AMPLIFIERS
http://www.stereophile.com/content/cary-audio-design-slp-05-preamplifier-measurements
http://www.caryaudio.com/products/sa-200-2/
My integrated amplifier Thule IA252B measures better than the tube
preamp, but I can't find a published measurement (though I have a
broschure on paper at home).

SPEAKERS
http://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-physic-scorpio-loudspeaker-measurements
I can't find a published measurement for the Focal Diablo Utopia III.
I'm sure it's a much better speaker than mine, though. Please tell me if
you find it.

OOPS
I won't even mention the designer speaker cables, or the power cables.

Best Regards,
Gandhi

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-13 Thread jh901


arnyk wrote: 
 
 
 Exactly. The recent spate of posts from jkeny appear to be just a
 trolling expedition.

The legendary troll is looking back at you in the mirror.

Your constant claim that genuine audiophiles are anti-science is
typical, meaningless rhetoric.  This ploy isn't new.  You may have
invented though.

It makes more sense to you that any number of thousands of audiophiles
from Japan, Germany, France, UK, Canada, US, etc are brainwashed than
the far more obvious conclusion which is that you aren't interested in
understanding why the gear which I would likely buy reproduces recorded
music so much better than mass produced stuff in you would buy.  Nah! 
It's all the most epic scam of all-time.  Science.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | Rule of Thirds for
speaker  sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
power cords and power conditioning

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


jh901 wrote: 
 Your transparency mantra is hilarious.
 

Dismissing something this easy to prove scientifically is itself pretty
hilarious.

I've already told you about how some people have locked themselves in
logic tight boxes. It is so convenient to have an object lesson right
before us!

 
 I'm not sure how you convinced yourself,
 

Science.

 
 but I can see where it is convenient for you.
 

I can see how it is inconvenient for you due to your stated need to be
that much better than everybody else.

 
 Note that when I hit play that the reproduced sound is
 extraordinary.  None of the gear is broken or otherwise deliberately
 designed with flaws.
 

Since I don't know what sort of gear you have, how would I know? Unlike
you, I have no delusions of my own omniscience as demonstrated below:

 
 What you hear at home is mediocrity if you are lucky.  Transparency and
 all.  And science.  
 

Please  explain your hatred and distrust of science.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-13 Thread jh901


bonze wrote: 
 You should know by now that those were his thorough tests.

Ridicule is where it's at.  Lord forbid Arny escape from Detroit for a
few days and listen to some actual household audiophile systems.  Nah.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | Rule of Thirds for
speaker  sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


jh901 wrote: 
 It makes more sense to you that any number of thousands of audiophiles
 from Japan, Germany, France, UK, Canada, US, etc are brainwashed than
 the far more obvious conclusion which is that you aren't interested in
 understanding why the gear which I would likely buy reproduces recorded
 music so much better than mass produced stuff in you would buy.  Nah! 
 It's all the most epic business scam of all-time.  Science.

Thousands of audiophiles are outnumbered by millions of engineers.

Wouldn't selling transparent stuff for a reasonable price be a very
strange scam?



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


ralphpnj wrote: 
 So gee how is that the Egyptians managed to build those pyramids? There
 is an overwhelming bias in today's world that mankind lived in the dark
 ages until Steve Jobs appeared on earth to save us mere mortals (I'm
 exaggerating :)). Seriously there is a strong bias in favor of modern
 science which only serves to discredit the very real scientific
 achievements and discoveries that were made and that were well known
 prior to The Dark Ages. For example the concept of logarithms was well
 known hundreds of years ago
 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithm#History).
 
 In particular this bias runs strongly in favor of electronics and
 computer science and against what I would Newtonian science, i.e. the
 everyday physical world. Of course my feelings on this issue are also
 very biased by the fact that I am a mechanical engineer. Funny thing is
 when one needs to dig a hole a simply shovel works a whole lot better
 than an iPhone app.
 
 I'm not trying to be a Luddite but only to point out that much of the
 foundation for today's modern marvels was laid many, many years ago.

We actually agree. Perhaps I was unclear. I'll try again.

Science is a method that has to be learned. In general people can
actually plan things and that must be one of our few advanteges on this
harsh earth. But some individuals have always been really good at that
they are genetically equipped with a sizable working memory, greater
than the average. It can also be trained. It enables deeper, more
abstract thinking, which is needed to think logically, plan ahead etc.
Everybody can't just mimic each other, nothing new would ever be
invented. We have made a great many inventions over the time, not just
fire and baking, which may have been found out in the wild and mimiced.
Also very important ideas like money, credit, insurance etc, that are
not found in nature. Not to mention hunting methods, building methods
and materials etc. Our forefathers may not have used the precise
scientific method, but they could think. However, at some point in time
we might have reached a critical mass, where the average intelligence
enabled us to make our living conditions significally better? It could
perhaps happen because people started living in larger communities. (If
you live in a tribe and meet 50 people in a lifetime, your brain might
not get as much impressions, and therefore training, as if you live in
NYC.)



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Gandhi wrote: 
 So according to neurocognition scientists, humans get more intelligent
 by the decade, because of our environment. This curve has a name, which
 I have forgotten.

The Flynn effect? Unfortunately it seems to have reversed in the 1980's,
and average IQ has actually gone down since. This could partially be
explained by the fact that natural selection isn't working any more (or
doesn't select for intelligence) in a society where we aren't constantly
fighting to survive (and every time I turn on the TV, I somehow think
there might be something to it).



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Julf wrote: 
 The Flynn effect? Unfortunately it seems to have reversed in the 1980's,
 and average IQ has actually gone down since. This could partially be
 explained by the fact that natural selection isn't working any more (or
 doesn't select for intelligence) in a society where we aren't constantly
 fighting to survive (and every time I turn on the TV, I somehow think
 there might be something to it).

Ah yes, the Flynn effect. I guess natural selection nowadays works
through the number of likes. And riding a bike in the dark with no
lights while listening to music and scrolling in playlists on your
smartphone, while wearing dark clothes and refusing to wear bicycle
helmets because they ruin the hairdo. Exciting times! 

Is that very unfortunate decline representative for the entire world?
The western world, I can imagine, but how about the less developed part,
who recently just started to learn how to read and even can afford light
to read books at night?



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Julf wrote: 
 I was at the founding meeting of the Finnish association of sceptics
 back in the day, but found them a bit too fanatical. I am a supporter of
 CSI (the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry), and do subscribe to the
 Sceptical Inquirer.
 
 
 
 Michael Shermer is a great writer and researcher. But my personal
 favourite scam exposers are Penn Jillette and Teller. Their 'Water
 Bottle Survey' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFKT4jvN4OEhttp://) is
 definitely relevant to this discussion...

Penn JIllete is great .

The Swedish sceptics are mostly booring but I pay the fee and keep them
running . They expose some scam on yearly basis . Some of the members
have written good books . They not fanatical not compared to the
Americans .




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

Wombat wrote:
Linking to CA for the proof of anything is a joke.

Agreed (but you already knew that)

SBGK wrote:
Just like the global warming theories haven't predicted the stall in
global temperatures

Another zombie lie (lies that continue to persist in spike of debunked
over and over and over)

https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/pause-in-warming-debunked

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-pause-in-global-warming/

http://insideclimatenews.org/news/04062015/global-warming-great-hiatus-gets-debunked-NOAA-study

I suggest that you keep up with the current state of affairs in an issue
as important as global warming, aka climate change.

Gandhi wrote:
I wonder about one thing. We invented the scientific principle 400 years
ago. (But perhaps the chinese actually invented it much earlier? They
were really good mathematicians 6,000 years ago, I think. Western
history books seldom include their history.) I find it hard to believe
that suddenly a mutation that allowed scientific thinking rapidly spread
over the world at that time. We must have been able to think like that a
long, long time, even if we didn't do that on a great scale. Has any
proof ever been produced that says that we have changed at all for
thousands of years? Since agriculture was invented 11,000 years ago we
have adapted to new food. But our mental capacity? Since the 1960s
(IIRC) we have started developing better concentration skills (bigger
working memory), because of the increasing amount of information we are
exposed to. That is said to translate directly to abstract intelligence.
So according to neurocognition scientists, humans get more intelligent
by the decade, because of our environment. This curve has a name, which
I have forgotten. But did this perhaps already start 400 years ago? If
so, could it have been the greater cities with more impressions, the
invention of the printing press and possibly time to read because of
better living conditions in general (if they were actually improved)?
Just thinking out loud...

So gee how is that the Egyptians managed to build those pyramids? There
is an overwhelming bias in today's world that mankind lived in the dark
ages until Steve Jobs appeared on earth to save us mere mortals (I'm
exaggerating :)). Seriously there is a strong bias in favor of modern
science which only serves to discredit the very real scientific
achievements and discoveries that were made and that were well known
prior to The Dark Ages. For example the concept of logarithms was well
known hundreds of years ago
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithm#History).

In particular this bias runs strongly in favor of electronics and
computer science and against what I would Newtonian science, i.e. the
everyday physical world. Of course my feelings on this issue are also
very biased by the fact that I am a mechanical engineer. Funny thing is
when one needs to dig a hole a simply shovel works a whole lot better
than an iPhone app.

I'm not trying to be a Luddite but only to point out that much of the
foundation for today's modern marvels was laid many, many years ago.

Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign.
sub
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Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


jh901 wrote: 
 Ridicule is where it's at. 
 

It would appear that ridicule is all you've got.

 
 Lord forbid Arny escape from Detroit for a few days and listen to some
 actual household audiophile systems.  Nah.

If you actually had something useful to say, you'd have said it by now.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Gandhi wrote: 
 We actually agree. Perhaps I was unclear. I'll try again.
 
 Science is a method that has to be learned. In general people can
 actually plan things and that must be one of our few advanteges on this
 harsh earth. But some individuals have always been really good at that
 they are genetically equipped with a sizable working memory, greater
 than the average. It can also be trained. It enables deeper, more
 abstract thinking, which is needed to think logically, plan ahead etc.
 Everybody can't just mimic each other, nothing new would ever be
 invented. We have made a great many inventions over the time, not just
 fire and baking, which may have been found out in the wild and mimiced.
 Also very important ideas like money, credit, insurance etc, that are
 not found in nature. Not to mention hunting methods, building methods
 and materials etc. Our forefathers may not have used the precise
 scientific method, but they could think. However, at some point in time
 we might have reached a critical mass, where the average intelligence
 enabled us to make our living conditions significally better? It could
 perhaps happen because people started living in larger communities. (If
 you live in a tribe and meet 50 people in a lifetime, your brain might
 not get as much impressions, and therefore training, as if you live in
 NYC.)

Yes I understand what you're saying. Please keep in mind that throughout
human history religion has acted, more often than not, as a kind of
throttle on scientific knowledge and keeping the faithful in the dark
regarding science, especially when the science runs counter to religious
beliefs, helps to enable better control of the faithful. Add into this
the fact while events will happen as they may, history is always written
by those in power and throughout history religious leaders have been
very powerful indeed. In other words, suppression of knowledge has
always been a useful tool for those in power, as can be seen in my
previous comments regarding climate change and zombie lies.



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Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Gandhi wrote: 
 We actually agree. Perhaps I was unclear. I'll try again.
 
 Science is a method that has to be learned. But in general people can
 actually think and plan things like trials and that must be one of our
 few advantages on this harsh earth. (That and language. And being able
 to sweat.) But some individuals have always been really good at that
 they are genetically equipped with a sizable working memory, greater
 than the average. It can also be trained. It enables deeper, more
 abstract thinking, which is needed to think logically, plan ahead etc.
 Everybody can't just mimic each other, nothing new would ever be
 invented. We have made a great many inventions over the time, not just
 fire and baking, which may have been found out in the wild and mimiced.
 Also very important ideas like money, credit, insurance etc, that are
 not found in nature. Not to mention hunting methods, building methods
 and materials etc. Our forefathers may not have used the precise
 scientific method, but they could think. However, at some point in time
 we might have reached a critical mass, where the average intelligence
 enabled us to make our living conditions significally better? It could
 perhaps happen because people started living in larger communities. (If
 you live in a tribe and meet 50 people in a lifetime, your brain might
 not get as much impressions, and therefore training, as if you live in
 NYC.)

There something to that , there are more living scientist know than have
ever died ? so they say .




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD  SqueezePad
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server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


ralphpnj wrote: 
 Another zombie lie (lies that continue to persist in spike of debunked
 over and over and over)
 
 https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/pause-in-warming-debunked
 
 http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-pause-in-global-warming/
 
 http://insideclimatenews.org/news/04062015/global-warming-great-hiatus-gets-debunked-NOAA-study
 
 I suggest that you keep up with the current state of affairs in an issue
 as important as global warming, aka climate change.

Ouch. I didn't even notice the climate myths. But in retrospect I
understand that I did just that, but on a subconscious level and would
actually have propagated that opinion, had anyone asked me today. My
mind was on audio, or at least I thought so. 

Obviously very dangerous not to be on one's toes every millisecond.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Gandhi wrote: 
 Ouch. I didn't even notice the climate myths. But in retrospect I
 understand that I did just that, but on a subconscious level and would
 actually have propagated that opinion, had anyone asked me today. My
 mind was on audio, or at least I thought so. 
 
 Obviously very dangerous not to be on one's toes every millisecond.
 
 Now, was that an act of subconscious mimicry? Or is it just that I can't
 entertain two thoughts at once?

While the big bad internet is filled with lots of mis/dis-information it
also contains a wealth of very useful and otherwise hard to find real
information. In that way modern technology does make it more difficult
(though not impossible) to rewrite history. One small benefit of getting
on in years is that one gets to witness first hand as history is
rewritten to either distort, if not flat out eliminate, past events.

Remember that in every war ever fought god was always on the side of the
victor, at least until the next war. I think Dylan wrote a song about
this :)



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sub
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Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-13 Thread Wombat


The decline of IQ? I like this case study ;)
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Wombat wrote: 
 The decline of IQ? I like this case study ;)
 http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8
 http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=U8rhIZJAdd0

The link does not appear to work, at least not for me - Windows
7/Firefox. Please check the link. Thanks!



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Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose  Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-13 Thread SBGK


arnyk wrote: 
 It would appear that ridicule is all you've got.
 
 
 
 If you actually had something useful to say, you'd have said it by now. 

now now, play nicely. you don't want to be remembered as a bitter old
man.



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?

2015-07-13 Thread bonze


SBGK wrote: 
 now now, play nicely. you don't want to be remembered as a bitter old
 man.

Oh dear, another that runs out of anything useful to say, so resorts to
personal insults.



LMS Version: 7.9
TranquilPC T2-WHS-A3 - WHS 2011
2x Touch, 3x SB3

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?


Julf wrote: 
 Actually it seems that that has been articulated, by Florence Ambrose,
 as Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't
 understand it. 
 
 There is also Grey's law - Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is
 indistinguishable from malice and Morgan's Maxim Any sufficiently
 advanced troll is indistinguishable from a genuine kook.

:-)
-
Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. 
Don't assign to stupidity what might be due to ignorance. 
And try not to assume your opponent is the ignorant one -- until you can
show it isn't you.-
- M. L. Plano



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|*
ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|*
transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|*
no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all,
including waking the server from s3.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is anybody sick of the recent spate of threads?