Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA
I would prefer the GFA put the funding they currently direct into sponsoring our international teams, most of whom could afford to pay their own way, towards sponsoring the Juniors - these guys and gals are the future of our sport. That would be development :-) SDF _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Kruyssen Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2008 2:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA I am dead against funding international teams out of GFA revenue. BUT funding from profits of competitions would work for me. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kym Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2008 1:35 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA Dear all, I have been watching this topic with interest as I wrote to the GFA on behalf of Renmark Gliding Club committee for clarification when the (one sentence) letter was sent out explaining the increases. Regardless of whether AEF charges should increase or not, the annual membership cost is still too high when compared with RAAus and I agree with Guy that the GFA should look at cost reductions! I agree that a computerised system would be an excellent start to this. The area of cost saving which the RGC committee wanted to pick on was the money paid towards the support of the Australian competitors in International events. Quote from RGC letter to GFA: It is the strong opinion of our committee that, given the current declining membership numbers and increasing costs, it is unfortunately no longer appropriate to continue supporting those who desire to fly internationally. We understand that the amount paid is insignificant compared to the costs incurred, however we believe that the costs in the GFA need to be reduced for the purpose of lowering membership fees in order to retain members. We received a nice reply including: Funding of the International Teams has been the subject of considerable debate over the years, the current GFA policy is to continue supporting our teams. I'd still like to see this policy changed as I see no benefit to individual GFA members being forced (via subs) to assist funding people to compete overseas. Regards, Kym Z. Barry Kruyssen wrote: AEF's are a main source of revenue for some clubs in both dollars and attracting new members. This is a blatant grab for club dollars by GFA, taking revenue straight out of the clubs. In small clubs the cost of operating will most likely be in the red and are being propped up by donations from members (buying fuel for winch, food for fund raising BQ, etc out of their own pocket). Now their revenue is cut more even more. I thought that GFA was here to support it's members and encourage gliding, not to make a profit out of our sport. In today's economy every organisation has to reduce cost, yes even GFA, if we are to survive. So what is going to happen in the future? Fees are going up, therefore membership will decline, cost per member will go up, thus fees go up, more members leave and the vicious circle has begun. The answer is to keep reducing costs per member to attract growth this is simple business logic. Don't get me wrong, I think that GFA staff and board members are helpful and doing a job which many of us could not do (or would not do). And a lot of it at their cost. But we still need turn around spending by GFA. The answer is definitely not to keep slugging the members and clubs. Barry Kruyssen _ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- - www.riverland.net.au/~kym - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA
Harry, From my observations most clubs (including my own) do not have an effective new membership strategy How many have and AEI potential membership package? How many follow up with AEIs that are assessed as genuine potential new members? The list goes onprofessional sales people follow up on contacts; we all try to talk the talk about new memberships etc - but how ;many clubs walk the walk? Litmus test - what is your AEI to membership conversion rate ? National figure was 3% several years ago AND of those who do join how many are still members following the first renewal. Begs the question, why don't we spend more time and effort retaining the new members we do recruit. Not saying we should not recruit, just looking at making the effort spent in recruitment returns true growth SDF _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of harry medlicott Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2008 4:54 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA Our experience at Lake Keepit is that with a bit of an effort on the part of instructors we get a quite reasonable conversion rate from AEFs. We also need the money. Also where would our new members come from if it wasn't through introductory flights? Anyone with any bright ideas? How many trainees just rock up at the airfield and sign up for a training course? The previous $5 charge covered an insurance component. If there has been a change would be pleased to hear about it. I hope you guys are not going to complain about $$50,000 being spent on the 1% of us aspiring for overseas team selection. You might as well keep quiet. Your fees are compulsory and you as an individual have absolutely no say in the election of the GFA board or its executive. It would have been a simple matter when the new constitution was being formulated to ensure member elected representation from each state. Candidates could present their CVs and policies for publication in Soaring Australia. You will find it hard to find another organisation with compulsory membership and no associated vote. If anyone knows of any, please give us a list. no taxation without representation was the catchcry of the American War of Independence, Harry - Original Message - From: Kevin McGowan mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Soaring in Australia. Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA Lets get real here, it is a well known fact, and stated on this forum many times previously that AEF's result in few new members to gliding, in fact often they just clog up the day but we do them in the hope that maybe this one will join. At my club we have a fairly simple way of charging for these flights, work out what it will cost worst case for the launch, add the cost of the glider, add a bit for the fudge factor, add a bit for profit, then add the GFA fee whether it be $1 or $20. Any club that says that the $20 GFA fee is taken from the club needs to look at its administration as they are not doing their job properly as an AEF should not cost the members but should profit them. Most people who take an AEF do so for the experience only and will pay whatever is asked, I have seen flights charged at $150 and the club is still kept busy doing flights. K _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:02:40 +1000 Subject: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA AEF's are a main source of revenue for some clubs in both dollars and attracting new members. This is a blatant grab for club dollars by GFA, taking revenue straight out of the clubs. In small clubs the cost of operating will most likely be in the red and are being propped up by donations from members (buying fuel for winch, food for fund raising BQ, etc out of their own pocket). Now their revenue is cut more even more. I thought that GFA was here to support it's members and encourage gliding, not to make a profit out of our sport. In today's economy every organisation has to reduce cost, yes even GFA, if we are to survive. So what is going to happen in the future? Fees are going up, therefore membership will decline, cost per member will go up, thus fees go up, more members leave and the vicious circle has begun. The answer is to keep reducing costs per member to attract growth this is simple business logic. Don't get me wrong, I think that GFA staff and board members are helpful and doing a job which many of us could not do (or would not do). And a lot of it at their cost. But we still need turn around spending by GFA. The answer is definitely not to keep slugging the members and clubs. Barry Kruyssen _ _
Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA
On 16/10/2008, at 4:24 PM, harry medlicott wrote: Our experience at Lake Keepit is that with a bit of an effort on the part of instructors we get a quite reasonable conversion rate from AEFs. We also need the money. Also where would our new members come from if it wasn't through introductory flights? Anyone with any bright ideas? That's an excellent question, and it's a shame that we're in to 2008 and hardly anyone has a clear idea. The GFA has done stats with its own corpus of AEFs, and published an article in the Mag earlier this year about the woeful conversion rate of AEFs to full GFA members. The take-home message was confirmation of the fact that gliding doesn't have a recruitment problem, it has a retention problem. The typical AEF fronts-up for a joyflight then goes home. A small but significant percentage of them have enough fun to join the club and commence training, and almost all of them drop-out before first-solo. Of the ones that proceed to first-solo, most of them drop out between solo and C certificate. Compared to the number of AEFs flown nationally, the number of Silver badges issued in Australia is almost statistically insignificant. That's why it's a mistake to view AEFs as a source of members. They just aren't. They're a source of money, which a club can use to improve its services and reduce its prices for its members. (which, incidentally, appears to be the same way the GFA has seen them, by hiking the price to $20 and dumping concession discounts -- meaning they get to keep the money instead of the clubs!) In my experience, long-term members are people who always wanted to learn how to fly, but never knew they could do it as accessibly as gliding. Kids, sailors and motorcycle riders tend to be disproportionately represented. If you can find a person like that, you don't need to give them an AEF, you just sign them up, get them straight onto the syllabus, train them, and enjoy their presence as a long-term member. If you're confronted by a person who isn't like that, you'd be right 99% of the time if you simply wrote them off as someone whose only value was to be exploited for cash. Remember: We don't need to be all things to all people. We'd double our membership base overnight if we looked at Australia's 21 million population and decided that we'd just be some things to about 4000 people. That shouldn't be hard, but we spend so much time distracting ourselves with marketing efforts to people who'll never give a damn that we completely miss the 4000 people who'd take our membership numbers back to the levels they enjoyed in the 1980's. I don't think any club in Australia knows how to effectively identify and market to those 4000 people. I don't know. Maybe that's something the GFA should be prioritizing, because it seems to me that a 100% increase in long-term membership would be somewhat beneficial... How many trainees just rock up at the airfield and sign up for a training course? At my club: Almost no general walk-in joy-flighters. Almost all people who our (limited) marketing efforts have identified as someone who is likely to seriously enjoy the experience of flight. The previous $5 charge covered an insurance component. If there has been a change would be pleased to hear about it. The GFA's justification for the change was that the amount of money yielded by selling 3-day memberships didn't adequately compensate the organization for the amount of administrative effort involved in processing them. My response to that is pretty simple: The GFA is the only organization I deal with in 2008 which actually requires pieces of paper in order to do things. Literally every single other organization I have day to day dealings with has worked out that administrative overheads can be largely automated out of existence if they're replaced with well-designed automatic systems. Can you imagine what'd happen if someone like amazon.com or eBay decided to put their prices up due to administrative overheads? They'd lose all their customers. That simply isn't an acceptable outcome for a business in 2008. Administrative overheads are things you eliminate, not things you bump up prices to accommodate. In my ideal world, there'd be a web form on GFA's website which would ask an AEF candidate for their details, present them with the terms and conditions with a box marked I Agree, and when they click it they'd get a reference/receipt number. When they fly they'd give the receipt number to the club/pilot, and afterwards they'd visit another bit of the GFA's website, where each entry of a receipt number marked the AEF voucher as used and debited a few bucks to the club's account. Zero human involvement from the GFA, vastly reduced overhead from club secretaries and treasurers, and total elimination of paperwork for the AEF victim. It's 2008. Why is this still being done on
[Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story
In my experience, long-term members are people who always wanted to learn how to fly, but never knew they could do it as accessibly as gliding. Kids, sailors and motorcycle riders tend to be disproportionately represented. I think it has been mentioned before, that posters for the local gliding club could be put up at sailing clubs or other represented group. The other group of people to target are those who have been more active in gliding or other aviation related activity in the past. The task would be then to reignite their passion and interest. It would be interesting to know the retention rates of Air Training Corp Cadets. My own experience: I was fascinated with flight ever since I hopped on a TAA T-jet in 1974 (Adelaide to Melbourne flight). As a kid, I built planes out of lego, made a balsa wood and doped paper throw glider, even considered getting into radio controlled stuff. (i.e. I always wanted to learn how to fly) Just before I started Uni, my Dad had told me that he thought there was a Uni Glining Club. A work colleague of my Dad was a tow pilot at Waikerie and had told my Dad about the Adelaide Uni Gliding Club (i.e. lucky word of mouth) So when I started Uni, at O'week, I actively sought the Uni Gliding Club and signed up. At that time (prior to joining up), I thought that gliding was a poor cousin to power flying (just glorified paper darts), but any flying was better than no flying. My first day on field comprised 3 circuits off a winch launch in a Bergy (GZM) at the end of the day. I was hooked. So either fortunately or unfortunately (depending upon your opinion of me..;-) ), I am still keen on gliding some 21 years later. Mind you raising a young family and having chronic illness in the family has tempered my participation over the last couple of years (my priority is to my family), but I anticipate that my activity in the sport will increase as my kids become interested (they are only 4.5 and almost 3 years old) and health problems settle. The challenge for the gliding movement in Australia is seeking out those who wish to fly for pleasure, versus those who want to do it and move on as they they tick the been there and done that box. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] (no subject)
harry medlicott wrote: Robert, What you are saying is just not correct. You should know better than try and justify this charge on the basis that its being paid by people other than GFA members. The price charged intro flights is inelastic - you just can't raise it by $20. The money comes straight out of clubs pockets. there is some justification for $20 when the extra days cover is utilised. Perhaps near metropolitan clubs able to charge +$100 can afford it. For winch launch clubs it is a charge of $120 per hour based on 10 minute flights and is a huge disincentive for those clubs offering low cost intro flights hoping to win new members. The increase from $5 for struggling clubs is obscene and will in the end be counterproductive to membership. Harry I have to disagree here. My general expierence (and this is supported by discussions I have had with a number of people) is that AEFs are pretty price insensitive. One club I am associated with raised its price considerably about 3 years ago - and increased their sales. Many clubs are however undercharging for AEFs - look at what is being charged for the parachuting equivalent and we are pretty cheap! If clubs choose to absorb the price increase that is entirely their decision. Sorry to be so unreceptive on this but I strongly believe that widening our revenue base is essential - and getting the casuals to pay is far better than getting the members to pay. -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story
I don't think there is anything wrong with either group - it just helps to know which someone is in so the training and experience is tailored for what they are after ! The best way of getting people for the long term is 1st making sure they know what is in store for them - having someone get through 15 flights and quit because the time commitment is too much is pointless and causes bad publicity by word of mouth - better for them not to start than have this happen. Smart companies turn down business that is not good for them even when desperate for income ! 2nd is to make sure that people always have a clear progression path visible with sensible goals that they aspire to - I know progress is being made on this, but it take a long time to re-educate the rest of us to promote this !!! On 16/10/2008, at 22:30 , McLean Richard wrote: Hi Michael I think these 2 comments of yours are spot on: The other group of people to target are those who have been more active in gliding or other aviation related activity in the past. The task would be then to reignite their passion and interest. The challenge for the gliding movement in Australia is seeking out those who wish to fly for pleasure, versus those who want to do it and move on as they they tick the been there and done that box. Does any one have any fresh constructive ideas for how best to do either of these? Just fishing for new ideas/ammunition for old ideas. Cheers, Richard --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Texler, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Texler, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Received: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 3:51 PM In my experience, long-term members are people who always wanted to learn how to fly, but never knew they could do it as accessibly as gliding. Kids, sailors and motorcycle riders tend to be disproportionately represented. I think it has been mentioned before, that posters for the local gliding club could be put up at sailing clubs or other represented group. The other group of people to target are those who have been more active in gliding or other aviation related activity in the past. The task would be then to reignite their passion and interest. It would be interesting to know the retention rates of Air Training Corp Cadets. My own experience: I was fascinated with flight ever since I hopped on a TAA T-jet in 1974 (Adelaide to Melbourne flight). As a kid, I built planes out of lego, made a balsa wood and doped paper throw glider, even considered getting into radio controlled stuff. (i.e. I always wanted to learn how to fly) Just before I started Uni, my Dad had told me that he thought there was a Uni Glining Club. A work colleague of my Dad was a tow pilot at Waikerie and had told my Dad about the Adelaide Uni Gliding Club (i.e. lucky word of mouth) So when I started Uni, at O'week, I actively sought the Uni Gliding Club and signed up. At that time (prior to joining up), I thought that gliding was a poor cousin to power flying (just glorified paper darts), but any flying was better than no flying. My first day on field comprised 3 circuits off a winch launch in a Bergy (GZM) at the end of the day. I was hooked. So either fortunately or unfortunately (depending upon your opinion of me..;-) ), I am still keen on gliding some 21 years later. Mind you raising a young family and having chronic illness in the family has tempered my participation over the last couple of years (my priority is to my family), but I anticipate that my activity in the sport will increase as my kids become interested (they are only 4.5 and almost 3 years old) and health problems settle. The challenge for the gliding movement in Australia is seeking out those who wish to fly for pleasure, versus those who want to do it and move on as they they tick the been there and done that box. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Make the switch to the world#39;s best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail! http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA
Some clubs would have bought a few books prior to the price rise forward thinking. More power to the RAA enjoying flying the Jabiru 230 :) Mal ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Our Condolences
Dear Nick, Just passing on our condolences. Hope your mending as well. Thinking of you mate. Mal and Stephanie and Baby Leigha Bruce___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story
I think when it comes to retention, areas like the Air Training Corps are sorely overlooked. They (NSW) run approximately 4-6 courses a year, with about 15-25 students per course. I'm not sure about other states. Here we have a large amount of flying-crazy youngsters, and barely any of them join clubs after that. I learnt to fly with the AIRTC, and I think the amount of people I know still gliding from from the last 8 years of AIRTC camps, you could count them on your hands. Mind you, I'm not sure where kink in the chain comes from there. I'm sure efforts have been made to engage the AIRTC to encourage their students to join clubs after they leave the cadets. What I'd like to know is why this is falling down. Does anyone know? The junior gliding movement in Australia is slowly gathering momentum, however we can see this huge group of flying-obsessed youngsters but can't figure out why we don't hear from them! If anyone from the AIRTC group reads this and wants to contact me offline, please do! If there's anything we youngin's can do to get more interested in the sport, let us know! Gus On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Texler, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my experience, long-term members are people who always wanted to learn how to fly, but never knew they could do it as accessibly as gliding. Kids, sailors and motorcycle riders tend to be disproportionately represented. I think it has been mentioned before, that posters for the local gliding club could be put up at sailing clubs or other represented group. The other group of people to target are those who have been more active in gliding or other aviation related activity in the past. The task would be then to reignite their passion and interest. It would be interesting to know the retention rates of Air Training Corp Cadets. My own experience: I was fascinated with flight ever since I hopped on a TAA T-jet in 1974 (Adelaide to Melbourne flight). As a kid, I built planes out of lego, made a balsa wood and doped paper throw glider, even considered getting into radio controlled stuff. (i.e. I always wanted to learn how to fly) Just before I started Uni, my Dad had told me that he thought there was a Uni Glining Club. A work colleague of my Dad was a tow pilot at Waikerie and had told my Dad about the Adelaide Uni Gliding Club (i.e. lucky word of mouth) So when I started Uni, at O'week, I actively sought the Uni Gliding Club and signed up. At that time (prior to joining up), I thought that gliding was a poor cousin to power flying (just glorified paper darts), but any flying was better than no flying. My first day on field comprised 3 circuits off a winch launch in a Bergy (GZM) at the end of the day. I was hooked. So either fortunately or unfortunately (depending upon your opinion of me..;-) ), I am still keen on gliding some 21 years later. Mind you raising a young family and having chronic illness in the family has tempered my participation over the last couple of years (my priority is to my family), but I anticipate that my activity in the sport will increase as my kids become interested (they are only 4.5 and almost 3 years old) and health problems settle. The challenge for the gliding movement in Australia is seeking out those who wish to fly for pleasure, versus those who want to do it and move on as they they tick the been there and done that box. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA
$180 at SCGC. We get enough. /daveb Kevin McGowan wrote: Lets get real here, it is a well known fact, and stated on this forum many times previously that AEF's result in few new members to gliding, in fact often they just clog up the day but we do them in the hope that maybe this one will join. At my club we have a fairly simple way of charging for these flights, work out what it will cost "worst case" for the launch, add the cost of the glider, add a bit for the fudge factor, add a bit for profit, then add the GFA fee whether it be $1 or $20. Any club that says that the $20 GFA fee is taken from the club needs to look at its administration as they are not doing their job properly as an AEF should not cost the members but should profit them. Most people who take an AEF do so for the experience only and will pay whatever is asked, I have seen flights charged at $150 and the club is still kept busy doing flights. K From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:02:40 +1000 Subject: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA AEF’s are a main source of revenue for some clubs in both dollars and attracting new members. This is a blatant grab for club dollars by GFA, taking revenue straight out of the clubs. In small clubs the cost of operating will most likely be in the red and are being propped up by donations from members (buying fuel for winch, food for fund raising BQ, etc out of their own pocket). Now their revenue is cut more even more. I thought that GFA was here to support it’s members and encourage gliding, not to make a profit out of our sport. In today’s economy every organisation has to reduce cost, yes even GFA, if we are to survive. So what is going to happen in the future? Fees are going up, therefore membership will decline, cost per member will go up, thus fees go up, more members leave and the vicious circle has begun. The answer is to keep reducing costs per member to attract growth this is simple business logic. Don’t get me wrong, I think that GFA staff and board members are helpful and doing a job which many of us could not do (or would not do). And a lot of it at their cost. But we still need turn around spending by GFA. The answer is definitely not to keep slugging the members and clubs. Barry Kruyssen ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring begin:vcard fn:Dave Boulter n:Boulter;Dave email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:+61-2-4626-7595 tel;fax:+61-2-4626-7595 tel;home:+61-2-4626-8165 tel;cell:+61-417-705-997 note;quoted-printable:www.boulterassociates.com.au=0D=0A= www.informgroup.com.au version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Texler, Michael Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2008 6:51 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention,and my own recriutment, retention story [Dave and Cath] I think it has been mentioned before, that posters for the local gliding club could be put up at sailing clubs or other represented group. Hmm... Could be touchy. Imagine someone from the local sailing club coming along to a gliding club and putting up a poster that says Stop gliding and take up sailing! Dave L ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story
I think i may be able to help with this one. My background as a 15 year old learnt to fly Blaniks L-13 With the AIRTC, 16 yrs of went powered and continued to fly with the AIRTC for the next 15 years as a cadet then as a adult instructor, and now in a instructing role. The big problem in making the Conversion from a cadet on a Abinitio Course is the age, Must cadets Learn in gliders because they can solo befor they can drive a car , and they can solo a year befor they can solo a powered aircraft. This is the problem, Once they are hooked and want to continue flying at a club they have no way to get to the club (usally a 300km round trip), many parents get suckered into ferring there son/daughter/ward to the airfield only to sit in the car all day then drive them home. This usally lasts the first trip then they get the If you want to fly you get yourself there and back me and your father are busy all weekend Burger flipping at maccas is usally the weapon of choice to raising funds to continue flying, i my case i was glassing and mixing drinks in a bar (well under age) to pay for my flying, i was lucky dad is a powered pilot so did not mind pushing blaniks around the base all day. When Cadets get a income to pay for there flying, they also incurr lifes costs CARS, Smokes Alcohol and Girls/ boys as we all know these are expensive. and the fun of flying fades into the distance. Car pooling was tried for many years it does work but when you leave it to teenagers to organise it never happens. In saying that many of my ex cadets now flt F18's orions hercs pc9's and hawks, also with the contigent that go the GA COM avenue. I have just finished 2 weeks ago a Abinitio course with cadets and i'm trying like shit to get the cadets to join a club and continue, it all up to them now. Most of the people dont know that the RAAF has a huge abount of AVGAS allocated to cadets for there flying training, so if a cadet fly's at your club IN UNIFORM they can apply to have the system reimburse the club for the cost of the fuel used during their Aerotows. Basically they can get a aerotow for Dry Hire Rates much cheeper considering AVGAS is about 1.80 a litre at the moment. Hope this helps. Ben - Original Message - From: Gus Stewart To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention,and my own recriutment, retention story I think when it comes to retention, areas like the Air Training Corps are sorely overlooked. They (NSW) run approximately 4-6 courses a year, with about 15-25 students per course. I'm not sure about other states. Here we have a large amount of flying-crazy youngsters, and barely any of them join clubs after that. I learnt to fly with the AIRTC, and I think the amount of people I know still gliding from from the last 8 years of AIRTC camps, you could count them on your hands. Mind you, I'm not sure where kink in the chain comes from there. I'm sure efforts have been made to engage the AIRTC to encourage their students to join clubs after they leave the cadets. What I'd like to know is why this is falling down. Does anyone know? The junior gliding movement in Australia is slowly gathering momentum, however we can see this huge group of flying-obsessed youngsters but can't figure out why we don't hear from them! If anyone from the AIRTC group reads this and wants to contact me offline, please do! If there's anything we youngin's can do to get more interested in the sport, let us know! Gus -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA
That did happen to SCGC for a period of time. We used to have too many AEFs and not enough trg or private flying. I still remember the meetings where people would say that we will never get an AEF again. Well we do. Enough, to have bought quite a few new gliders till recently. AEFs have dropped off, even in a place like Sydney there are highs and lows /daveb D S Baker wrote: Bit fo a side note, I remember hearing of a club who were getting too many AEF's, and so put up the price, and instead of getting less AEFs, they ended up getting more =S 2008/10/16 Kevin McGowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lets get real here, it is a well known fact, and statedon this forummany times previously that AEF's result infew new members to gliding, in fact often they just clog up the day but we do them in the hope that maybe this one will join. At my club we have a fairly simple way of charging for these flights, work out what it will cost "worst case"for the launch, add the cost of the glider, add a bit for the fudge factor, add a bit for profit, then add the GFA fee whether it be $1 or $20. Any club that says that the $20 GFA fee is taken from the club needs to look at its administration as they are not doing their job properly as an AEF should not cost themembers but should profit them. Most people who take an AEFdo so for the experience only and will pay whatever is asked,I have seen flights charged at $150 and the club is still kept busy doing flights. K From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:02:40 +1000 Subject: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA AEF's are a main source of revenue for some clubs in both dollars and attracting new members. This is a blatant grab for club dollars by GFA, taking revenue straight out of the clubs. In small clubs the cost of operating will most likely be in the red and are being propped up by donations from members (buying fuel for winch, food for fund raising BQ, etc out of their own pocket). Now their revenue is cut more even more. I thought that GFA was here to support it's members and encourage gliding, not to make a profit out of our sport. In today's economy every organisation has to reduce cost, yes even GFA, if we are to survive. So what is going to happen in the future? Fees are going up, therefore membership will decline, cost per member will go up, thus fees go up, more members leave and the vicious circle has begun. The answer is to keep reducing costs per member to attract growth this is simple business logic. Don't get me wrong, I think that GFA staff and board members are helpful and doing a job which many of us could not do (or would not do). And a lot of it at their cost. But we still need turn around spending by GFA. The answer is definitely not to keep slugging the members and clubs. Barry Kruyssen ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- timmo you know what i hate timmo errors that wont go away Guilty So you dislike children too ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring begin:vcard fn:Dave Boulter n:Boulter;Dave email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:+61-2-4626-7595 tel;fax:+61-2-4626-7595 tel;home:+61-2-4626-8165 tel;cell:+61-417-705-997 note;quoted-printable:www.boulterassociates.com.au=0D=0A= www.informgroup.com.au version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story
Hi Gus Having been introduced to the sport through this path myself 20 odd years ago I think the reality is that the majority of these kids just want to fly F/A-18's, and also they are unlikely to be in a position to, or have the desire to, get seriously into gliding for some time. A definite investment in the future though, just don't expect a return for a while, and definitely not much short term retention. Just my experience. I started gliding in 87 by 93 had left to do other things .. but then I came back. Cheers, Richard --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Gus Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Gus Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Received: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 8:10 PM I think when it comes to retention, areas like the Air Training Corps are sorely overlooked. They (NSW) run approximately 4-6 courses a year, with about 15-25 students per course. I'm not sure about other states. Here we have a large amount of flying-crazy youngsters, and barely any of them join clubs after that. I learnt to fly with the AIRTC, and I think the amount of people I know still gliding from from the last 8 years of AIRTC camps, you could count them on your hands. Mind you, I'm not sure where kink in the chain comes from there. I'm sure efforts have been made to engage the AIRTC to encourage their students to join clubs after they leave the cadets. What I'd like to know is why this is falling down. Does anyone know? The junior gliding movement in Australia is slowly gathering momentum, however we can see this huge group of flying-obsessed youngsters but can't figure out why we don't hear from them! If anyone from the AIRTC group reads this and wants to contact me offline, please do! If there's anything we youngin's can do to get more interested in the sport, let us know! Gus On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Texler, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my experience, long-term members are people who always wanted to learn how to fly, but never knew they could do it as accessibly as gliding. Kids, sailors and motorcycle riders tend to be disproportionately represented. I think it has been mentioned before, that posters for the local gliding club could be put up at sailing clubs or other represented group. The other group of people to target are those who have been more active in gliding or other aviation related activity in the past. The task would be then to reignite their passion and interest. It would be interesting to know the retention rates of Air Training Corp Cadets. My own experience: I was fascinated with flight ever since I hopped on a TAA T-jet in 1974 (Adelaide to Melbourne flight). As a kid, I built planes out of lego, made a balsa wood and doped paper throw glider, even considered getting into radio controlled stuff. (i.e. I always wanted to learn how to fly) Just before I started Uni, my Dad had told me that he thought there was a Uni Glining Club. A work colleague of my Dad was a tow pilot at Waikerie and had told my Dad about the Adelaide Uni Gliding Club (i.e. lucky word of mouth) So when I started Uni, at O'week, I actively sought the Uni Gliding Club and signed up. At that time (prior to joining up), I thought that gliding was a poor cousin to power flying (just glorified paper darts), but any flying was better than no flying. My first day on field comprised 3 circuits off a winch launch in a Bergy (GZM) at the end of the day. I was hooked. So either fortunately or unfortunately (depending upon your opinion of me..;-) ), I am still keen on gliding some 21 years later. Mind you raising a young family and having chronic illness in the family has tempered my participation over the last couple of years (my priority is to my family), but I anticipate that my activity in the sport will increase as my kids become interested (they are only 4.5 and almost 3 years old) and health problems settle. The challenge for the gliding movement in Australia is seeking out those who wish to fly for pleasure, versus those who want to do it and move on as they they tick the been there and done that box. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Make the switch to the world#39;s best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail! http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
Re: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story
Hi Michael I think these 2 comments of yours are spot on: The other group of people to target are those who have been more active in gliding or other aviation related activity in the past. The task would be then to reignite their passion and interest. The challenge for the gliding movement in Australia is seeking out those who wish to fly for pleasure, versus those who want to do it and move on as they they tick the been there and done that box. Does any one have any fresh constructive ideas for how best to do either of these? Just fishing for new ideas/ammunition for old ideas. Cheers, Richard --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Texler, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Texler, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Received: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 3:51 PM In my experience, long-term members are people who always wanted to learn how to fly, but never knew they could do it as accessibly as gliding. Kids, sailors and motorcycle riders tend to be disproportionately represented. I think it has been mentioned before, that posters for the local gliding club could be put up at sailing clubs or other represented group. The other group of people to target are those who have been more active in gliding or other aviation related activity in the past. The task would be then to reignite their passion and interest. It would be interesting to know the retention rates of Air Training Corp Cadets. My own experience: I was fascinated with flight ever since I hopped on a TAA T-jet in 1974 (Adelaide to Melbourne flight). As a kid, I built planes out of lego, made a balsa wood and doped paper throw glider, even considered getting into radio controlled stuff. (i.e. I always wanted to learn how to fly) Just before I started Uni, my Dad had told me that he thought there was a Uni Glining Club. A work colleague of my Dad was a tow pilot at Waikerie and had told my Dad about the Adelaide Uni Gliding Club (i.e. lucky word of mouth) So when I started Uni, at O'week, I actively sought the Uni Gliding Club and signed up. At that time (prior to joining up), I thought that gliding was a poor cousin to power flying (just glorified paper darts), but any flying was better than no flying. My first day on field comprised 3 circuits off a winch launch in a Bergy (GZM) at the end of the day. I was hooked. So either fortunately or unfortunately (depending upon your opinion of me..;-) ), I am still keen on gliding some 21 years later. Mind you raising a young family and having chronic illness in the family has tempered my participation over the last couple of years (my priority is to my family), but I anticipate that my activity in the sport will increase as my kids become interested (they are only 4.5 and almost 3 years old) and health problems settle. The challenge for the gliding movement in Australia is seeking out those who wish to fly for pleasure, versus those who want to do it and move on as they they tick the been there and done that box. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Make the switch to the world#39;s best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail! http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] (no subject)
Robert, I it depends on where you are. Close to major cities where there is a large populations with surplus disposal income your right In the rural areas - not the case. In our case 98% of our AEI Joy Flights come from Canberra 100km away, 1% from Cooma 15Km away and 1% from Adjacnt areas including the far South Coast of NSW some two hours drive away. We have a $100 and a $150 AEI Joy Flight package we sell more $150.00 flights and we sell most of them on Sundays. Your operating on the Darling Downs - you must have similar outcomes. SDF _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Hart Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2008 7:45 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Cc: aus Soaring; Robert Hart Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] (no subject) harry medlicott wrote: Robert, What you are saying is just not correct. You should know better than try and justify this charge on the basis that its being paid by people other than GFA members. The price charged intro flights is inelastic - you just can't raise it by $20. The money comes straight out of clubs pockets. there is some justification for $20 when the extra days cover is utilised. Perhaps near metropolitan clubs able to charge +$100 can afford it. For winch launch clubs it is a charge of $120 per hour based on 10 minute flights and is a huge disincentive for those clubs offering low cost intro flights hoping to win new members. The increase from $5 for struggling clubs is obscene and will in the end be counterproductive to membership. Harry I have to disagree here. My general expierence (and this is supported by discussions I have had with a number of people) is that AEFs are pretty price insensitive. One club I am associated with raised its price considerably about 3 years ago - and increased their sales. Many clubs are however undercharging for AEFs - look at what is being charged for the parachuting equivalent and we are pretty cheap! If clubs choose to absorb the price increase that is entirely their decision. Sorry to be so unreceptive on this but I strongly believe that widening our revenue base is essential - and getting the casuals to pay is far better than getting the members to pay. -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] (no subject)
- Original Message - From: Robert Hart To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Cc: aus Soaring ; Robert Hart Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] (no subject) harry medlicott wrote: Robert, What you are saying is just not correct. You should know better than try and justify this charge on the basis that its being paid by people other than GFA members. The price charged intro flights is inelastic - you just can't raise it by $20. The money comes straight out of clubs pockets. there is some justification for $20 when the extra days cover is utilised. Perhaps near metropolitan clubs able to charge +$100 can afford it. For winch launch clubs it is a charge of $120 per hour based on 10 minute flights and is a huge disincentive for those clubs offering low cost intro flights hoping to win new members. The increase from $5 for struggling clubs is obscene and will in the end be counterproductive to membership. Harry I have to disagree here. My general expierence (and this is supported by discussions I have had with a number of people) is that AEFs are pretty price insensitive. One club I am associated with raised its price considerably about 3 years ago - and increased their sales. Suggest rather than just relying on discussions with a few people you circulate clubs and ask them their experience. The comments on this chat page should give you the message that many clubs are pretty furious about this impost. If you don't want to do it maybe I will but can't see the GFA ,being a virtual dictatorship and able to impose charges as it decides, taking any notice. Suggesting clubs raise their charges to cover this impost dosn't change the fact that it is coming out of that clubs income. The best way of increasing the revenue base is to increase membership and the GFAs score on this aspect is pretty woeful. Would you like to give members the cost a few years ago of employing a development officer and the results? I won't hold my breath. The GFA treasurer was asked at a pilots meeting in Kingaroy the cost of supporting overseas teams. Refused to give an answer. Perhaps you could give us a detailed costing. Again I won't hold my breath waiting for an answer but it is an not unreasonable request. As an example, Lake Keeepit Soaring Club, which is under severe financial stress, asked the NSWGA to help fund some new highway signs. A few years ago they said that this would be an acceptable request. We got a refusal despite the NSWGA having tens of thousands of dollars in reserves. Our club members are levied each year to fund the NSWGA. Please don't say,- none of the GFAs business. Its just indicative of the mindset in the gliding bureaucracy. Money available to support the hobby horses of the powers that be. Robert, when you were elected to the GFA board we all hoped that you would make a difference. Seems like they have won you over, Harry Many clubs are however undercharging for AEFs - look at what is being charged for the parachuting equivalent and we are pretty cheap! If clubs choose to absorb the price increase that is entirely their decision. Sorry to be so unreceptive on this but I strongly believe that widening our revenue base is essential - and getting the casuals to pay is far better than getting the members to pay. -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1727 - Release Date: 10/15/2008 8:02 PM ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story
Michael Did you notice engineers are also disproportionally represented, but thats a good thing because they're so easy to take the mickey out of and we need the entertainment! Grant Harper -Original Message- From: Texler, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 5:51 pm Subject: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story In my experience, long-term members are people who always wanted to learn how to fly, but never knew they could do it as accessibly as gliding. Kids, sailors and motorcycle riders tend to be disproportionately represented. I think it has been mentioned before, that posters for the local gliding club could be put up at sailing clubs or other represented group. The other group of people to target are those who have been more active in gliding or other aviation related activity in the past. The task would be then to reignite their passion and interest. It would be interesting to know the retention rates of Air Training Corp Cadets. My own experience: I was fascinated with flight ever since I hopped on a TAA T-jet in 1974 (Adelaide to Melbourne flight). As a kid, I built planes out of lego, made a balsa wood and doped paper throw glider, even considered getting into radio controlled stuff. (i.e. I always wanted to learn how to fly) Just before I started Uni, my Dad had told me that he thought there was a Uni Glining Club. A work colleague of my Dad was a tow pilot at Waikerie and had told my Dad about the Adelaide Uni Gliding Club (i.e. lucky word of mouth) So when I started Uni, at O'week, I actively sought the Uni Gliding Club and signed up. At that time (prior to joining up), I thought that gliding was a poor cousin to power flying (just glorified paper darts), but any flying was better than no flying. My first day on field comprised 3 circuits off a winch launch in a Bergy (GZM) at the end of the day. I was hooked. So either fortunately or unfortunately (depending upon your opinion of me..;-) ), I am still keen on gliding some 21 years later. Mind you raising a young family and having chronic illness in the family has tempered my participation over the last couple of years (my priority is to my family), but I anticipate that my activity in the sport will increase as my kids become interested (they are only 4.5 and almost 3 years old) and health problems settle. The challenge for the gliding movement in Australia is seeking out those who wish to fly for pleasure, versus those who want to do it and move on as they they tick the been there and done that box. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Retention, recruitment and the pPrune thread
But the F/A 18 guys will eventually return to gliding when they become airline pilots in 15 - 20 years time and what something that is fun and gives them real stick and rudder time. Those that can't afford that or don't go to the RAAF will maybe come back to sailplanes when they get too old for HGs. I started with Air Cadet movement and then my choice of University was partly based on a gliding club funded by student union - I was Sec for 3 yrs and still administering a gliding club 40 years on. We are required by the rules of the system to make everybody a GFA member to take an AEF and give them insurance protection - or take them as private passengers if they are already mates and we can be sure they will not sue us if all does not go well. [Plenty of history here of instant mates later going litigious - hopefully the Civil Liability laws will sort this out if we do not make false claims of safety.] Since we are all the GFA this means we do not all subsidise AEFs by charging them less than it costs to insure and fly them, and many clubs can make a profit on this. However not all can do that, though these people may either qualify as true friend passengers or else be unable to afford the cost of becoming involved in the sport even if they wanted to. Some gliding organisations are set up to cater for the money-rich and time-poor, but most of us still spend a lot of time going gliding that could be spent doing something else, and call it relaxation. Being a sport that depends on either voluntary effort or paid time to get the background work done, GFA might well be more flexible in the styles of club they encourage to exist. Going back to the PPrune posts that started this thread off, only one posting there so far seems to totally bag gliding (the rest being glider pilots bagging the GFA's traditional and historic sense of instructor responsibility) - and those claims of irresponsible behaviour towards airspace and other pilots should concern us all of they were founded in truth. I cannot reco0ncile them with any one site I know of, but some of us may be guilty of some of the things the movement as a whole is accused of - and we should root these accusations out of the system as soon as possible if they are even remotely close to the truth. Wombat At 00:09 17/10/2008, you wrote: Hi Gus Having been introduced to the sport through this path myself 20 odd years ago I think the reality is that the majority of these kids just want to fly F/A-18's, and also they are unlikely to be in a position to, or have the desire to, get seriously into gliding for some time. A definite investment in the future though, just don't expect a return for a while, and definitely not much short term retention. Just my experience. I started gliding in 87 by 93 had left to do other things .. but then I came back. Cheers, Richard --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Gus Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Gus Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Received: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 8:10 PM I think when it comes to retention, areas like the Air Training Corps are sorely overlooked. They (NSW) run approximately 4-6 courses a year, with about 15-25 students per course. I'm not sure about other states. Here we have a large amount of flying-crazy youngsters, and barely any of them join clubs after that. I learnt to fly with the AIRTC, and I think the amount of people I know still gliding from from the last 8 years of AIRTC camps, you could count them on your hands. Mind you, I'm not sure where kink in the chain comes from there. I'm sure efforts have been made to engage the AIRTC to encourage their students to join clubs after they leave the cadets. What I'd like to know is why this is falling down. Does anyone know? The junior gliding movement in Australia is slowly gathering momentum, however we can see this huge group of flying-obsessed youngsters but can't figure out why we don't hear from them! If anyone from the AIRTC group reads this and wants to contact me offline, please do! If there's anything we youngin's can do to get more interested in the sport, let us know! Gus On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Texler, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my experience, long-term members are people who always wanted to learn how to fly, but never knew they could do it as accessibly as gliding. Kids, sailors and motorcycle riders tend to be disproportionately represented. I think it has been mentioned before, that posters for the local gliding club could be put up at sailing clubs or other represented group. The other group of people to target are those who have been more active in gliding or other aviation related activity in the past. The
Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA
At SCGC we have success with 5 and 10 flight packages. We find some AEFs take the 5 flight package as they see better value. I agree, in regards to the target market problem. There are "samplers" who will never join anything. I also find it funny reading Golf Australia where they are complaining about the reduced numbers in Golf and declining memberships /daveb Mark Newton wrote: On 16/10/2008, at 4:24 PM, harry medlicott wrote: Our experience at Lake Keepit is that with a bit of an effort on the part of instructors we get a quite reasonable conversion rate from AEFs. We also need the money. Also where would our new members come from if it wasn't through introductory flights? Anyone with any bright ideas? That's an excellent question, and it's a shame that we're in to 2008 and hardly anyone has a clear idea. The GFA has done stats with its own corpus of AEFs, and published an article in the Mag earlier this year about the woeful conversion rate of AEFs to full GFA members. The take-home message was confirmation of the fact that gliding doesn't have a recruitmentproblem, it has a retentionproblem. The typical AEF fronts-up for a joyflight then goes home. A small but significant percentage of them have enough fun to join the club and commence training, and almost all of them drop-out before first-solo. Of the ones that proceed to first-solo, most of themdrop out between solo and C certificate. Compared to the number of AEFs flown nationally, the number of Silver badges issued in Australia is almost statistically insignificant. That's why it's a mistake to view AEFs as a source of members. They just aren't. They're a source of money, which a club can use to improve its services and reduce its prices for its members. (which, incidentally, appears to be the same way the GFA has seen them, by hiking the price to $20 and dumping concession discounts -- meaning they get to keep the money instead of the clubs!) In my experience, long-term members are people who always wanted to learn how to fly, but never knew they could do it as accessibly as gliding. Kids, sailors and motorcycle riders tend to be disproportionately represented. If you can find a person like that, you don't need to give them an AEF, you just sign them up, get them straight onto the syllabus, train them, and enjoy their presence as a long-term member. If you're confronted by a person who isn't like that, you'd be right 99% of the time if you simply wrote them off as someone whose only value was to be exploited for cash. Remember: We don't need to be all things to all people. We'd double our membership base overnight if we looked at Australia's 21 million population and decided that we'd just be somethings to about 4000 people. That shouldn't be hard, but we spend so much time distracting ourselves with marketing efforts to people who'll never give a damn that we completely miss the 4000 people who'd take our membership numbers back to the levels they enjoyed in the 1980's. I don't think any club in Australia knows how to effectively identify and market to those 4000 people. I don't know. Maybe that's something the GFA should be prioritizing, because it seems to me that a 100% increase in long-term membershipwould be somewhat beneficial... How many trainees just rock up at the airfield and sign up for a training course? At my club: Almost no general walk-in joy-flighters. Almost all people who our (limited) marketing efforts have identified as someonewho is likely to seriously enjoy the experience of flight. The previous $5 charge covered an insurance component. If therehas been a change would be pleased to hear about it. The GFA's justification for the change was that the amount of money yielded by selling 3-day memberships didn't adequately compensate the organization for the amount of administrative effort involved in processing them. My response to that is pretty simple: The GFA is the only organization I deal with in 2008 which actually requires pieces of paper in order to do things. Literally every single other organization I have day to day dealings withhas worked out that administrative overheads can be largely automated out of existenceif they're replaced with well-designed automatic systems. Can you imagine what'd happen if someone like amazon.com or eBay decided to put their prices up due to administrative overheads? They'd lose all their customers. That simply isn't an acceptable outcome for a business in 2008. Administrative overheads are things you eliminate, not things you bump up prices to accommodate. In my ideal world, there'd be a web form on GFA's website which would ask an AEF candidate for
[Aus-soaring] SA deadline
A reminder that articles for inclusion in the December issue of Soaring Australia should reach me by October 25 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards AnneE Keith Dixon and Anne Elliott (GFA Sub-editor Soaring Australia magazine) PO Box 189 Narromine NSW 2821 Australia Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.ourafricansafari.com.au www.vintageglidersaustralia.org.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Funding for coaching
Hello all I have been watching the debate with great interest and feel that it might help if contributors have a better insight into the funding of our international teams and coaching in general. If I understand the GFA president correctly there is about $ 35000.00 per annum allocated to support pilots representing Australia at overseas events. The aim is to ease the considerable financial burden of our dozen or so international pilots. From my involvement on the National Coaching Panel (NCP) I know that an additional amount of $ 8000.00 is paid as a fee to our squad coach plus $ 3000.00 for squad coach expenses. The grand total is about $ 46000.00 per year but I stand corrected on this figure. At the recent NCP meeting I have raised some concern that the amount allocated to one week of squad coaching stands in stark contrast to the funding available for coaching at state level. The expense account for 'State Head Coaches' is $200 per year necessitating that many of them dig into their own pocket to cover the most basic needs. I felt obliged to point out that the work conducted at regional level is by far more valuable than squad coaching in terms of arresting the slow death of gliding in Australia. I have also argued that we can only stop the decline in membership if we ensure that our new members get more fun and satisfaction from gliding. Only if they get the same enjoyment from the sport as our better skilled and more seasoned pilots do we stand a chance to reverse our poor retention rates. If newcomers don't have the skills necessary to enjoy gliding they will soon vote with their feet. The consensus of the NCP is that better training as well as individual and group coaching is the key to membership retention and the survival of the sport in Australia. The prime reason for this posting is to find out whether the wider GFA membership is basically in agreement. Also, please let us know what percentage of available funds should be allocated to the coaching of our elite pilots on one hand and on the many newcomers in each state on the other. The coaching budget is currently being drafted and will soon be submitted to the GFA board for approval. Your input will help greatly to find the right balance. Kind regards Bernard Eckey State Head Coach for SA NT PS: May I ask to answer these two questions first before sharing other thoughts with us??? _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kym Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2008 2:05 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA Dear all, I have been watching this topic with interest as I wrote to the GFA on behalf of Renmark Gliding Club committee for clarification when the (one sentence) letter was sent out explaining the increases. Regardless of whether AEF charges should increase or not, the annual membership cost is still too high when compared with RAAus and I agree with Guy that the GFA should look at cost reductions! I agree that a computerised system would be an excellent start to this. The area of cost saving which the RGC committee wanted to pick on was the money paid towards the support of the Australian competitors in International events. Quote from RGC letter to GFA: It is the strong opinion of our committee that, given the current declining membership numbers and increasing costs, it is unfortunately no longer appropriate to continue supporting those who desire to fly internationally. We understand that the amount paid is insignificant compared to the costs incurred, however we believe that the costs in the GFA need to be reduced for the purpose of lowering membership fees in order to retain members. We received a nice reply including: Funding of the International Teams has been the subject of considerable debate over the years, the current GFA policy is to continue supporting our teams. I'd still like to see this policy changed as I see no benefit to individual GFA members being forced (via subs) to assist funding people to compete overseas. Regards, Kym Z. Barry Kruyssen wrote: AEF's are a main source of revenue for some clubs in both dollars and attracting new members. This is a blatant grab for club dollars by GFA, taking revenue straight out of the clubs. In small clubs the cost of operating will most likely be in the red and are being propped up by donations from members (buying fuel for winch, food for fund raising BQ, etc out of their own pocket). Now their revenue is cut more even more. I thought that GFA was here to support it's members and encourage gliding, not to make a profit out of our sport. In today's economy every organisation has to reduce cost, yes even GFA, if we are to survive. So what is going to happen in the future? Fees are going up, therefore membership will decline, cost per member will go up, thus fees go
Re: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story
Hi Rob (and others) I think SA is probably the only state where the junior movement really has any momentum, and that's due to a) having critical mass, b) a university gliding club and b) good resources. So I guess what I'm referring to at the moment is the other AIRTC wings, in particular NSWAIRTC (327 wing I think they're now called? can't remember), who I believe continue to be the biggest youth gliding operation in the southern hemisphere. I realise that many just want to fly F/A 18's. In fact, probably 90% of them do. But honestly, 10% of them don't give a rats... they just want to fly something. And enjoy the social aspect of the camps. I too was an AIRTC graduate, I spent many years in a Blanik out at Raglan (Bathurst) and just like Ben, when I joined my local club (RRGC) afterwards, I spent 3 hours+ travel on train and pushbike just to go flying. Only when I got my first set of wheels could I head further out to places like BSC to continue my flying. Working as a kitchenhand to afford it all, whilst inglorious, was necessary . (Gawd, I think I'm going to need my very own terry towelling hat soon!) What I'm trying to get at is that the AIRTC is probably flying more people per year than they ever did in the olden days, yet far less than ever are taking up gliding afterwards. Even if only 2% of them decided to continue flying, that would be a huge boost and inject more younger people into clubs. Are there any (current) AIRTC members on this mailing list? If not, why not? Gus On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 12:09 AM, McLean Richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Gus Having been introduced to the sport through this path myself 20 odd years ago I think the reality is that the majority of these kids just want to fly F/A-18's, and also they are unlikely to be in a position to, or have the desire to, get seriously into gliding for some time. A definite investment in the future though, just don't expect a return for a while, and definitely not much short term retention. Just my experience. I started gliding in 87 by 93 had left to do other things .. but then I came back. Cheers, Richard --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Gus Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Gus Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Received: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 8:10 PM I think when it comes to retention, areas like the Air Training Corps are sorely overlooked. They (NSW) run approximately 4-6 courses a year, with about 15-25 students per course. I'm not sure about other states. Here we have a large amount of flying-crazy youngsters, and barely any of them join clubs after that. I learnt to fly with the AIRTC, and I think the amount of people I know still gliding from from the last 8 years of AIRTC camps, you could count them on your hands. Mind you, I'm not sure where kink in the chain comes from there. I'm sure efforts have been made to engage the AIRTC to encourage their students to join clubs after they leave the cadets. What I'd like to know is why this is falling down. Does anyone know? The junior gliding movement in Australia is slowly gathering momentum, however we can see this huge group of flying-obsessed youngsters but can't figure out why we don't hear from them! If anyone from the AIRTC group reads this and wants to contact me offline, please do! If there's anything we youngin's can do to get more interested in the sport, let us know! Gus On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Texler, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my experience, long-term members are people who always wanted to learn how to fly, but never knew they could do it as accessibly as gliding. Kids, sailors and motorcycle riders tend to be disproportionately represented. I think it has been mentioned before, that posters for the local gliding club could be put up at sailing clubs or other represented group. The other group of people to target are those who have been more active in gliding or other aviation related activity in the past. The task would be then to reignite their passion and interest. It would be interesting to know the retention rates of Air Training Corp Cadets. My own experience: I was fascinated with flight ever since I hopped on a TAA T-jet in 1974 (Adelaide to Melbourne flight). As a kid, I built planes out of lego, made a balsa wood and doped paper throw glider, even considered getting into radio controlled stuff. (i.e. I always wanted to learn how to fly) Just before I started Uni, my Dad had told me that he thought there was a Uni Glining Club. A work colleague of my Dad was a tow pilot at Waikerie and had told my Dad about the Adelaide Uni Gliding Club
[Aus-soaring] German teenager crashed glider into tree
German teenager has been rescued three hours after her glider crashed into a tree. The 16-year-old flight trainee was applauded by rescue workers as she leapt onto a rope to descend from the glider. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7674453.stm ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
