Re: Shrub's Conspiracy to Invade Iraq Revealed by Ex-Admin Official
And there are plans for invading N Korea, Cuba, Russia, China, Japan, Columbia, New Zealand, Spain, Canada..any country you want. It's what the military does. Plans in the Pentagon are not the same thing as plans in the White House. I think the point is not that the Defense Dept. was doing its job but that the newly installed Bush administration was thinking about invading Iraq months before Sept. 11 gave them what they would use as an ostensible reason. Given that Dubya's entire presidency is basically about doing stuff his father couldn't, this does not surprise me. Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Not Bush2 (Was Shrub's Conspiracy to Invade Iraq Revealed by Ex-Admin Official)
On Sunday 2004-01-11 00:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Plans in the Pentagon are not the same thing as plans in the White House. I think the point is not that the Defense Dept. was doing its job but that the newly installed Bush administration was thinking about invading Iraq months before Sept. 11 gave them what they would use as an ostensible reason. Given that Dubya's entire presidency is basically about doing stuff his father couldn't, this does not surprise me. I like Thomas Friedman's idea that GW Bush's presidency is *NOT* Bush II, but Reagan III, or even better, Regan Squared. Regan made Goldwater look moderate, the W Bush administration makes Regan look moderate and Goldwater seem a half-hearted fiscal moderate, social liberal, big government pragmaticst. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Double Standards on Regional Bigotry
On Sat, Jan 10, 2004 at 11:45:19PM -0500, John D. Giorgis wrote: At 04:08 PM 1/10/2004 -0600 The Fool wrote: Bullshit. I wrote: There's no need to swear. The Fool wrote: That's not swearing. Uh, does *anyone* here agree with The Fool? I am quite offended by the word sw**r, John. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Not Bush2 (Was Shrub's Conspiracy to Invade Iraq Revealed by Ex-Admin Official)
On Sun, Jan 11, 2004 at 12:55:12AM -0700, Trent Shipley wrote: I like Thomas Friedman's idea that GW Bush's presidency is *NOT* Bush II, but Reagan III, or even better, Regan Squared. Regan made Goldwater look moderate, the W Bush administration makes Regan look moderate and Goldwater seem a half-hearted fiscal moderate, social liberal, big government pragmaticst. At least Reagan made some significant spending cuts. And when the deficit skyrocketed, he even raised taxes if I recall. I don't expect to see such fiscal semi-responsibility from this Bush. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Ha Ha! At Last!
Gautam Mukunda wrote: Travis Edmunds wrote: You see, I'm at somewhat of a disadvantage due to my age. I'm only 21 That mean's I'm no longer the youngest Brin-Ler. It's about time! :-) Quiet, ya whippersnapper! And get offa my lawn!! ;-p Jim Right about at the median age around here I think Maru ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Physics Quiz
Robert Seeberger wrote http://intuitor.com/physics_test/PhysicsSavvy.html 70% for me. Not bad for someone who hasn't cracked a physics book in almost 15 years, I suppose. Jim The world is flat isn't it maru ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Book questions
On 11 Jan 2004, at 4:49 am, G. D. Akin wrote: Has anyone read Kim Stanley Robinson's Orange County trilogy? I have. Are they worth reading? I found the third (_Pacific Edge_ the Utopian version of Orange County) very dull. But _The Wild Shore_ and _The Gold Coast_ were quite good. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run out of things they can do with UNIX. - Ken Olsen, President of DEC, 1984. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Minimal Profits for Halliburton
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: I don't know about financial models, but I do know that judgement, especially when immediate judgement on critical issues is necessary, is affected by fatigue. For one thing, tired people tend to be grumpy people, and may do things they later regret. I think both of us are looking at this issue from a programmer's viewpoint, where long hours usually *are* a sign of poor planning, either by the managers who didn't hire enough people, or on the software engineering side, where time for completing tasks was severely underestimated. __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Science Fiction-themed online store . http://www.sloan3d.com/store Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Swearing, cussing
John objected to swearing in a post. I believe the problem he had was with the word bullshit. My opinion on that word is: a) Throwing that into an argument is an emotional matter, and undercuts the intellectual content of what you're trying to say somewhat. You look more rational if you refrain from using the word. If you're seriously arguing a point, don't use it -- it just makes you look like you don't have a good rational argument, even if you do. b) Throwing that into a discussion where you want to convey your emotion about the whole thing may still be a little over-the-top. Using bull without the fecal matter suffix usually gets the point across just as well. c) There are days where anyone tossing off shit without referring literally to fecal material tempts me to write to the poster an off-list description of exactly what sort of fecal matter I've had to deal with that day. So far I have resisted. So far. d) I prefer not to deal with the word anyway, most of the time, without the preface of I call. That kind of lightens the tone of the whole thing. Especially in a sort of sing-songy way. (Think about how you'd say I call shotgun! And the word in question is best left to use in the company of those who *would* call shotgun.) Julia who has called shotgun on a number of occasions and found that it's not always the wisest course if you're the smallest person in the party ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Holy Blood Holy Grail
Robert Seeberger wrote: So where is it inaccurate exactly. Most of the history in the book was a but beyond the scope of my education, but I found the hypothesis at least plausible. Anyone here have some expertise in those eras of history? Damon? The Graal was secured in Portugal, that derives its name from it Por Tu Grall = By Your Graal. The Kings of Portugal were the descendants from Jesus. When the Portuguese Monarchy fled to Brazil in the early 1800s, they brought the Graal. It was buried under the Maracana footbal stadium, which cursed us and made us lose the World Cup of 1950 Weird History Maru II Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Holy Blood Holy Grail
I never read the book, but ironically it came up as a subject on Mediev-L list I'm subscribed to. It was pretty heavily criticized as a crack-pot type interpretation of history. The main complaints, however, is that it did not follow standard historical methodology, such as making conclusions from unsupportable evidence, interpreting evidence out of context, and more importantly, ignoring (or failing to address) evidence that contradicts the main thesis of the book. Although occasionally advances in historical knowledge can occur by outsiders (i.e. non-professionals), more often than not these people have little to add (and therefore would be fine for pop or introductory history), or rather, lack training in methodology so that their conclusions are twisted or unsupportable. I liken it akin to if I talked about astronomy. I might have a lot of information about it, and generally could possibly even teach it, but any real new discoveries (beyond finding comets and other stellar bodies...I'm thinking more in the line of astrophysics or new theories) would be beyond me because I lack training in formal methodology of science and Astronomy research. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Holy Blood Holy Grail
Although occasionally advances in historical knowledge can occur by outsiders (i.e. non-professionals), more often than not these people have little to add (and therefore would be fine for pop or introductory history), or rather, lack training in methodology so that their conclusions are twisted or unsupportable. I liken it akin to if I talked about astronomy. I might have a lot of information about it, and generally could possibly even teach it, but any real new discoveries (beyond finding comets and other stellar bodies...I'm thinking more in the line of astrophysics or new theories) would be beyond me because I lack training in formal methodology of science and Astronomy research. Forgot to add that another thing a professional has going for him is a body of knowledge only a professional can have. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
The Immigration Nexus
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2004_01_04_dneiwert_archive.html#1073799095 31128573 The Immigration Nexus Saturday, January 10, 2004 The uproar over George W. Bush's proposal for immigration reform has revealed a significant rift within the American right -- namely, between its corporatist element, whose primary interest lies in exploiting the low wages that immigrants provide, and its ideological element, which sees immigrants as part of a brown tide on the verge of permanently swamping the majority white culture. The Bush plan comes down squarely on the side of the corporatists -- unsurprisingly, since those interests throughout his administration have held sway in nearly every aspect of governance. That in turn has spurred the intense anger of the ideological right, who are hotly denouncing Bush's betrayal of America. Witness, for instance, the following diatribe from the Federation of American Immigration Reform: The White House is pandering to ethnic lobbies in the hope of attracting a few more votes in November, and to an assortment of business interests seeking a massive labor subsidy at the public's expense. The only people whose interests are left out of this proposal are the overwhelming majority of Americans who work hard, obey the law, pay taxes, and seek a quality education for their kids, said Stein. And then there's this response, from Peter Brimelow's VDare organization, which variously describes Bush's proposals as treasonous, idiotic, and the product of moral arrogance, deceit, disinformation and disregard for the democratic process. VDare also carried this piece by noted racist Samuel Francis, who opined: It's Mr. Bush who is wrong, of course. America has no responsibility to foreigners, let alone to foreigners who have broken our laws to get here. It has a responsibility to its own people and its own identity and interests. Note how closely these responses parallel the views of the extremist American Patrol (which, of course, also carries links to the VDare and FAIR material at its Web site). The group's Web site describes the Bush plan thus: Insane Bush Amnesty will Sacrifice U.S.; Mexicans Cheer Bush Surrender Plan; Bush Outlines Plan to Surrender Southwest U.S. to Mexico. None of this should be a great surprise. As the Southern Poverty Law Center reported a couple of years ago, most of these anti-immigration groups are at their core deeply racist, operated and promoted by people who are adept at appearing reasonable but whose bigotry lies just beneath the surface. More recent reports from the SPLC have further uncovered the cauldron of racial hatred that underlies groups like Brimelow's VDare and FAIR, which was prominently on display during recent counterdemonstrations involving the pro-immigrant Freedom Ride: [W]hat really got under JustPiper's skin seemed to be the Freedom Riders, not the neo-Nazis from White Revolution. [T]hese banditos kept screaming obscenities and threats at us, she claimed. Lemme tellya, they were just coming with signs like cockroaches! D.A. King of the Georgia Coalition for Immigration Reduction a group that says it does not cater to persons who believe their race to be superior to others had a similar reaction after protesting a Freedom Ride stop outside Atlanta. I got the sense that I had left the country of my birth and been transported to some Mexican village, completely taken over by an angry, barely restrained mob, King wrote on the hard-line anti-immigration Web site vdare.com (see Keeping America White). My first act on a safe return home was to take a shower. Groups like FAIR, VDare, and American English like to pose as mainstream organizations offering thoughtful proposals for reforming U.S. immigration policy, but in reality their core -- ideologically, financially and programmatically -- is the same bigoted, racist Nativism that has plagued the nation since the time of the Know-Nothings. They are, in essence, all about putting pearls on a pig. The danger, however, is that the ideological element has been rapidly gaining in both influence and numbers within the larger conservative movement -- thereby representing one of the most significant incursions of right-wing extremism into the mainstream since the rise of the Clinton-hate nexus in the 1990s. This should have been painfully evident a few weeks ago, when MSNBC's Joe Scarborough hosted the leader of one of the nation's most notorious academic hate organizations -- Jared Taylor of American Renaissance -- in an hourlong hatefest devoted primarily to bashing immigrants and stoking irrational fears about what Pat Buchanan calls The Death of the West. Outrageously enough, Scarborough repeated the performance again recently, hosting Taylor in a discussion of Bush's immigration reforms. [Transcript here.] What was remarkable about both of these performances, of course, was the utter failure of MSNBC to inform its audience about Taylor's background, or the fact that
RE: Davidbrin.com blocked by WebSense
Bryon wrote: That's happened to me a few times recently as well. Just today I got one from Tricia Blankenship. I got one from Tricia Blankenship as well. Lal GSV Spam Hell ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Extraordinary Rendition
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2003_archives/003029.html The Maher Arar Case Impeach George Bush and Richard Cheney. Impeach them now. We are the United States of America. We do not do things like this. Christopher Pyle writes about the Maher Arar case: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/01/04/INGPQ40MET1.D TLtype=printable Torture by proxy / How immigration threw a traveler to the wolves: On Sept. 26, 2002, U.S. immigration officials seized a Syrian-born Canadian at Kennedy International Airport, because his name had come up on an international watch list for possible terrorists. What happened next is chilling. Maher Arar was about to change planes on his way home to Canada after visiting his wife's family in Tunisia when he was pulled aside for questioning. He was not a terrorist. He had no terrorist connections, but his name was on the list, so he was detained for questioning. Not ordinary, polite questioning, but abusive, insulting, degrading questioning by the immigration service, the FBI and the New York City Police Department. He asked for a lawyer and was told he could not have one. He asked to call his family, but phone calls were not permitted. Instead, he was clapped into shackles and, for several days, made to disappear. His family was frantic. Finally, he was allowed to make a call. His government expected that Arar's right of safe passage under its passport would be respected. But it wasn't. Arar denied any connection to terrorists. He was not accused of any crimes, but U.S. agents wanted him questioned further by someone whose methods might be more persuasive than theirs. So, they put Arar on a private plane and flew him to Washington, D.C. There, a new team, presumably from the CIA, took over and delivered him, by way of Jordan, to Syrian interrogators. This covert operation was legal, our Justice Department later claimed, because Arar is also a citizen of Syria by birth. The fact that he was a Canadian traveling on a Canadian passport, with a wife, two children and job in Canada, and had not lived in Syria for 16 years, was ignored. The Justice Department wanted him to be questioned by Syrian military intelligence, whose interrogation methods our government has repeatedly condemned. The Syrians locked Arar in an underground cell the size of a grave: 3 feet wide, 6 feet long, 7 feet high. Then they questioned him, under torture, repeatedly, for 10 months. Finally, when it was obvious that their prisoner had no terrorist ties, they let him go, 40 pounds lighter, with a pronounced limp and chronic nightmares. Why was Arar on our government's watch list? Because multiple international intelligence agencies had linked him to terrorist groups. How many agencies? Two. What had they reported? Not much. The Syrians believed that Arar might be a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Why? Because a cousin of his mother's had been, nine years earlier, long after Arar moved to Canada. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police reported that the lease on Arar's apartment had been witnessed by a Syrian- born Canadian who was believed to know an Egyptian Canadian whose brother was allegedly mentioned in an al Qaeda document. That's it. That's all they had: guilt by the most remote of computer- generated associations. But, according to Attorney General John Ashcroft, that was more than enough to justify Arar's delivery to Syria's torturers. Besides, Ashcroft added, the torturers had expressly promised that they would not torture him. Our intelligence agencies have a name for this torture-by-proxy. They call it extraordinary rendition. As one intelligence official explained: We don't kick the s -- out of them. We send them to other countries so they can kick the s -- out of them. This secret program for torturing suspects has been authorized, if that is the right word for it, by a secret presidential finding. Where the president gets the authority to have anyone tortured has never been explained. It is time someone asked. What our government did to Maher Arar is worse than anything the British did to our Colonial forefathers. It was worse than anything J. Edgar Hoover did to alleged Communists, civil rights workers and anti-war activists during his long program of dirty tricks. According to the Bush administration, we are at war with al Qaeda. If so, then delivering a suspect to torturers is a war crime and should be prosecuted as such. But first, we need to know who was responsible, and that will not be easy -- unless there is a firestorm of protest. Isn't it time to condemn torture by proxy and demand prosecution of the persons responsible? Isn't it time to question how these watch lists are assembled and used, before more of us fall victim to secret detentions and brutal interrogations based on guilt by computerized associations? I Pledge Impertinence to the Flag-Waving of the Unindicted Co-Conspirators of America and to the Republicans for
Re: Extraordinary Rendition
It is time someone asked. What our government did to Maher Arar is worse than anything the British did to our Colonial forefathers. It was worse than anything J. Edgar Hoover did to alleged Communists, civil rights workers and anti-war activists during his long program of dirty tricks. Wasting your time. There is not a single right-wing fanatic on this list (or in dittoland) who will give a damn about what we did to this poor bastard. It's far too easy to scream war against terror to justify anything they want to do or cover up. The fact that Bush and Ashcroft between them are in the process of jettisoning much of what makes America WORTH defending in the first place is completely lost on Rush and his hateful, hate-filled clones. This is why Dubya is the worst president we've ever had, and John Ashcroft is by far the worst Attorney-General (by such a far margin that he makes Edwin Meese and John Mitchell look almost acceptable by comparison). I know this sounds inflammatory and I don't care. I don't see how anyone can defend men who can perpetrate such an outrageous injustice. There is nothing that justifies this, nothing at all. If we can't defeat our enemies by any other means than by becoming them, then we don't deserve to win. This guy did nothing and they treated him like he personally guided the planes into the Twin Towers by wire. George Bush and John Ashcroft are the worst kind of scum - men who hide despicable actions behind airy, lofty motives. They don't even have the guts to admit their villainy. Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Extraordinary Rendition
At 03:41 PM 1/11/2004, you wrote: It is time someone asked. What our government did to Maher Arar is worse than anything the British did to our Colonial forefathers. It was worse than anything J. Edgar Hoover did to alleged Communists, civil rights workers and anti-war activists during his long program of dirty tricks. Wasting your time. There is not a single right-wing fanatic on this list (or in dittoland) who will give a damn about what we did to this poor bastard. It's far too easy to scream war against terror to justify anything they want to do or cover up. The fact that Bush and Ashcroft between them are in the process of jettisoning much of what makes America WORTH defending in the first place is completely lost on Rush and his hateful, hate-filled clones. This is why Dubya is the worst president we've ever had, and John Ashcroft is by far the worst Attorney-General (by such a far margin that he makes Edwin Meese and John Mitchell look almost acceptable by comparison). I know this sounds inflammatory and I don't care. I don't see how anyone can defend men who can perpetrate such an outrageous injustice. There is nothing that justifies this, nothing at all. If we can't defeat our enemies by any other means than by becoming them, then we don't deserve to win. This guy did nothing and they treated him like he personally guided the planes into the Twin Towers by wire. George Bush and John Ashcroft are the worst kind of scum - men who hide despicable actions behind airy, lofty motives. They don't even have the guts to admit their villainy. Tom Beck Responding to another list member's ghost post with hateful, hate filled clones: too upset to come up with more adjectives? I'd say you and your lot are the ones filled with hate and madness. I'm happy even with pipes in my kitchen frozen, the cable being out, my cat being sick and numerous (very minor) health problems of my own. Dwell in your hatred, just don't let it consume you. Kevin T. - VRWC I prefer ditto (as in D. Brin's novel) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Extraordinary Rendition
On Sunday 2004-01-11 13:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This guy did nothing and they treated him like he personally guided the planes into the Twin Towers by wire. Now the problem is that you cannot be certain he was not important until AFTER his, er, thorough interogation by third parties. Israeli and American intelligence experts are telling the press that the odds of infiltrating Islamist Nonstate Violent Groups is essentially nil. Either they need to become so unpopular amoung their indigenous base that INVGs become non-viable OR you pursue them through interrogation based intelligence (or citizens become squemish about abusive police practices and interogation techniques, learning to live in a significantly more dangerous world...). A big problem with interogation based intelligence is that you need to sift though a lot of noise to find signal. Perhaps you arrest and tort..., ah, thoroughly interrogate 99 basically innocent profilees to snare a single operative or active supporter. [ Operative: member of group Active Supporter: gives aid or comfort Passive Supporter: (neither participates or supports, but is passively sympathetic) ] There *IS* a very real trade off between liberty and security. SOOO... The main complaints have been about citizens of close allies, eg the UK or Canada. One rather expects them to retaliate. How long until they decide to render or indefinitely detain US Citizens? [Would the Bushies care?] How long until they warn their businessmen and tourists that visiting the US isn't safe? How long until they stop sharing anti-terrorist intel in retaliation? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Extraordinary Rendition
Responding to another list member's ghost post with hateful, hate filled clones: too upset to come up with more adjectives? I'd say you and your lot are the ones filled with hate and madness. I'm happy even with pipes in my kitchen frozen, the cable being out, my cat being sick and numerous (very minor) health problems of my own. I'm not filled with hate - I'm angry. I think what Bush and his maniacs are doing to this country is dangerous and despicable. I think what they did to that poor Canadian was outrageous and frightening. How come when right-wingers scream, that's okay, but when liberals get angry, that's not? Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Extraordinary Rendition
Perhaps you arrest and tort..., ah, thoroughly interrogate 99 basically innocent profilees to snare a single operative or active supporter. We. Don't. Torture. Period. Besides being despicable, it almost never works. Most people will say ANYTHING to stop being tortured. I understand the ticking timebomb argument (not that I agree with it), but that can hardly apply to a situation where you basically torture anyone you can find without any probable cause at all. To some extent, a war against terror requires some necessary if distasteful tradeoffs. I think what is going on at the moment goes WAY far beyond the bare minimum necessary. I think Bush and Ashcroft have contempt for civil liberties and are overjoyed to have an excuse to do what they want to anyway. If distasteful methods sometimes have to be utilized in the field, under the exigencies of an ongoing operation or a well reasoned fear that an attack is imminent, well, maybe (although it makes it difficult if not impossible to complain if and when the other side treats your people the same way). But that clearly did not happen in this case. They arrested the guy for almost no reason, interrogated him, had absolutely no reason to think he was any kind of terrorist - and had him tortured anyway. Practicalities aside, why doesn't that infuriate you? How can you defend treating the guy this way? Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: TV Editing
In a message dated 1/10/2004 9:24:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It seems like the editing reported it exactly how it is. Dean plainly said that listening to other peoples' arguments for eight hours would be a waste of time for ordinary people - because they can't be convinced. Once again John you have managed to get me to do something I would not have thougth possible; defend Dean; He was not saying it was a waste of time because ordinary people could not be convinced. He was saying that people do not have the time for this specific method of forming opinions. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Physics Quiz
- Original Message - From: Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 8:56 AM Subject: Re: Physics Quiz Robert Seeberger wrote http://intuitor.com/physics_test/PhysicsSavvy.html 70% for me. Not bad for someone who hasn't cracked a physics book in almost 15 years, I suppose. Jim The world is flat isn't it maru Interesting thing is, I have never studied physics (in any formal manner) and never took any math beyond algebra 1. Everything I know about physics comes from reading on my own. So I tend to be weak at the basics at times, but somewhat knowledgeable about many aspects of the state of the art. I love to read about physics research and history. xponent Reaching Beyond My Grasp Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Double Standards on Regional Bigotry
In a message dated 1/10/2004 4:25:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Personally, if you want to talk about pandering, I'll talk abotu a party that collects 90% of the vote of people of a certain race. That's only *possible* via pandering Alternately, it may be the result of the policies of the republican party with regard to the welfare of that race (by the way which race are we talkng about). And of course the fact that the republican party gets over 90% of the vote of a religous groups with certain philosophies or certain aspects of the economic sector is not pandering? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ha Ha! At Last!
In a message dated 1/10/2004 11:35:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You see, I'm at somewhat of a disadvantage due to my age. I'm only 21, and I'm only now beginning to immerse myself into the things I really enjoy. -Travis That mean's I'm no longer the youngest Brin-Ler. It's about time! :-) -- So who's oldest? George A P.S. I'm 53 and would just as soon NOT win the prize. 57 for at least 6 more weeks ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Science Fiction In General
From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Science Fiction In General Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:31:24 -0600 - Original Message - From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 6:24 PM Subject: Re: Science Fiction In General From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Science Fiction In General Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 18:24:15 -0600 - Original Message - From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 10:42 AM Subject: Re: Science Fiction In General I've read every King book as they were published over the last 30 something years. And I chuckle a bit when I read statements like this. Remember Dickens was subject to exactly the same kinds of criticism you make and so were many books that are now considered classics. A nice, if not relevant comparison. Don't tell me however that King is in the same league as Dickens. Sure, why not? A populist writer who reflects his times quite well, but was often lambasted during his life? I think you could make lots of comparisons. A lot of contrasts too, but that is only natural. I speak of his writing ability. King, like most of us is a child of the television era, and like many of us, grew up watching horror movies. This is strongly reflected in his writing and the smell of matinee popcorn wafts from every page. Pure gold in words. I really like that. Thanks, I learned how to write while reading Stephen Kings books. G lol I bet. Speaking of writing, do you? (Fiction that is) I do however judge King himself, and render a verdict of which you already know. And it's more than just pure taste or raw opinion. King is without a doubt a mediocre writer.(See actual definition of mediocre) Well, you are not in any way judging King himself, you are judging his abilities and qualities as a writer, and that is not in any way the same thing. You have me so to speak, on that score. I never covered my tracks on that one and deserve the correction. But of course, judging his abilities and qualities as a writer is what I meant. [Here, I take a swipe at Travis, but it is meant only as a criticism of the theme he presents and not as an attack of Travis personally or his abilities and qualities as a writerG] Lets agree shall we, that from now on statements like that are not needed between us (unless otherwise stated!! lol), as I find you quite agreeable. Travis, what I find objectionable in the above paragraph is that you set yourself up as an objective authority or as a party who has access to objective reality. You aren't and you don't. True. Yet the fact remains that he is indeed mediocre in regard to his writing ability. Let me draw out a little analogy. You are taught in school that 2 + 2 = 4, and you tell all your friends about it. You are in fact talking about it when along come Travis. Now Travis looks at you and says: That's not right. You're setting yourself up as an objective authority or as a party who has access to objective reality. You aren't and you don't. Oops. There's the mistake Robert. You see 2 + 2 does in fact equal 4, and to say otherwise is an easy avenue in which to base an argument. But an avenue that's flawed because it denies the truth. Of course I'm not the objective king (pun intended), as it's impossible to be 100% objective, as we humans are subject to exist within the confines of our own little minds, thus rendering us subjective. It's all about perspective really; and when you think about it, perspective is all we have. However, once again we, as humans have to collectively agree upon things. Thus creating truth as we know it. Take language for example. It's an agreed upon set of symbols. It may not be an objective way to convey ideas, but it's the best we have, and we agree (whether consciously or not) to use it and stand by it as a means of communication. The same goes for law, math, what's funny, what's not...blah blah blah.up to and including literature. That's where I base MY argument; in truth, which yes, IS subjective due to individual perspective, but at least it's a unanimously agreed upon principal. -Travis hope we can keep this up Edmunds...lol _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/viruspgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Immigration Nexus
- Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: xBrin-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 1:22 PM Subject: The Immigration Nexus This is typical. These are people who say, OK, this is great. I don t care if these Mexicans are going to live 20 or 30 in a house, because its not my daughter who's going to look across the back fence and see them urinating in their yard. No, I'm happy to get a guy who can mow the lawn for $2 an hour and thats all I care about. As sad as it is, this is an accurate assessment. (The part quoted that is) xponent Two Hoods Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stephan King
From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Stephan King Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:24:02 -0600 - Original Message - From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 5:33 PM Subject: Re: Stephan King From: Amanda Marlowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Stephan King Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:32:05 -0600 1. King is a better storyteller than he is a writer. His plots can be fascinating and compelling. Unfortunately he indiscriminately adds details about every thing including the kitchen sink, which can make the writing very hard to slog through. Amanda Just my two cents Maru (And no, I haven't read King's book on writing yet.) Good point. Especially since it helps validate my point of view!!lol Compare that to Anne Rice's work, which yes, can be tedious and indiscriminately detailed, but it's GOOD. As much as I like Rice's books, they can be so detailed that they get boring. At times, yes. However her writing is so rich and textured, that you can almost smell the blood... I really care very little about knowing the most intimate details about every characters wardrobe. lol That's pretty funny. But it comes back to taste I suppose. Something you may have already touched upon with me...lol Her books have so much detail that it seems almost to be filler to get the word count up. Filler? Filler you say. Blasphemy...well ok it not blasphemous, it's just that I love Anne Rice. BTW, I thought Blackwood Farm was excellent. xponent Wordy Gurdy Maru rob I enjoyed it, but was dourly disappointed. If you don't mind, could you elaborate a little as to your feelings towards the book? -Travis Will you marry me Anne? Edmunds _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Extraordinary Rendition
- Original Message - From: Kevin Tarr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 3:50 PM Subject: Re: Extraordinary Rendition Responding to another list member's ghost post with hateful, hate filled clones: too upset to come up with more adjectives? I'd say you and your lot are the ones filled with hate and madness. I'm happy even with pipes in my kitchen frozen, the cable being out, my cat being sick and numerous (very minor) health problems of my own. Dwell in your hatred, just don't let it consume you. Well, Would you sign *your* name on this guys treatment? You know, this is not the first time this guys story has shown up on this list. I am just surprised that this is still going on. xponent Not As Angry As Tom, But Just As Disgusted Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Return of the King Review Re: my mini review
From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Return of the King Review Re: my mini review Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:04:51 -0600 From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Return of the King Review Re: my mini review Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:04:51 -0600 You see, I'm at somewhat of a disadvantage due to my age. I'm only 21, and I'm only now beginning to immerse myself into the things I really enjoy. -Travis Ahhh.Well that explains a lot. G Haha. There is nothing wrong with being young except that you are at a bit of a disadvantage when talking to people who have had much more time to explore the world. Oh, I couldn't agree more. I certainly recognize that fact, which is why I posted my thoughts on it originally. The young think they know everything and are uninhibited in expressing that. Generalizing is a bad thing Robert. For me personally, I acknowledge my shortcomings, as well as my own merits. Older people are much the same, but experience gives one reason to have doubts that The Facts are set in stone. To me, they seem to be set in silly putty and are waiting for a new days paradigm. I know what you mean, though perhaps in a more shallow frame of reference. I can draw those parallels to myself, from the time I was in high-school up until now. I also realize the deep water is yet to come; or so I'm told. Please don't take the above as criticism, its an observation based of remembrances of my youth. I think a lot of the older people here could say similar things phrased in a quite different way. G Hey, thanks for any and all observations past-tense and yet to come. In any case I appreciate the energy you bring to the discussions and your unique point of view. xponent Old Enough To Be Your Father Ya Little Scalawag Maru rob Thank you very much Robert. You are quite the troubadour, I must say. I as well, appreciate your own unique point of view, as well as your openness, and kindness in accepting me the way you did. -Travis _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/photospgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Science Fiction In General
- Original Message - From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Science Fiction In General From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Science Fiction In General Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:31:24 -0600 - Original Message - From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 6:24 PM Subject: Re: Science Fiction In General From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Science Fiction In General Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 18:24:15 -0600 - Original Message - From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 10:42 AM Subject: Re: Science Fiction In General I've read every King book as they were published over the last 30 something years. And I chuckle a bit when I read statements like this. Remember Dickens was subject to exactly the same kinds of criticism you make and so were many books that are now considered classics. A nice, if not relevant comparison. Don't tell me however that King is in the same league as Dickens. Sure, why not? A populist writer who reflects his times quite well, but was often lambasted during his life? I think you could make lots of comparisons. A lot of contrasts too, but that is only natural. I speak of his writing ability. Oh? And Dickens is special exacly how? In his time Dickens was not especially respectedexcept by the general public and even then not by all. There were many writers who were thought to be of higher quality than Dickens, after all Dickens was pandering to the public, but the other writers are not as well known today. King, like most of us is a child of the television era, and like many of us, grew up watching horror movies. This is strongly reflected in his writing and the smell of matinee popcorn wafts from every page. Pure gold in words. I really like that. Thanks, I learned how to write while reading Stephen Kings books. G lol I bet. Speaking of writing, do you? (Fiction that is) Some here, would tell that is all that I write. G (Hi Yall!) Actually we had a little group here writing a sequal to Startide Rising ayear or two ago. Whatever happened to that? I am currently stuck in the middle of a story for the [Janelle] mythos that I can't seem to get to progress. (Its about Brin-L in a parralel world more or less, something that Dr Brin himself actually started..quite by accident G) I do however judge King himself, and render a verdict of which you already know. And it's more than just pure taste or raw opinion. King is without a doubt a mediocre writer.(See actual definition of mediocre) Well, you are not in any way judging King himself, you are judging his abilities and qualities as a writer, and that is not in any way the same thing. You have me so to speak, on that score. I never covered my tracks on that one and deserve the correction. But of course, judging his abilities and qualities as a writer is what I meant. [Here, I take a swipe at Travis, but it is meant only as a criticism of the theme he presents and not as an attack of Travis personally or his abilities and qualities as a writerG] Lets agree shall we, that from now on statements like that are not needed between us (unless otherwise stated!! lol), as I find you quite agreeable. Glad the feeling is mutual. Just did'nt want to put you on the defensive, thinking you were being slammed. G Travis, what I find objectionable in the above paragraph is that you set yourself up as an objective authority or as a party who has access to objective reality. You aren't and you don't. True. Yet the fact remains that he is indeed mediocre in regard to his writing ability. Unfortunately you cannot make objective statements since you enter with preexisting prejudices. This makes the starting point for your argument a position of weakness. Of course I'm unable to be objective also, but knowing this, I only have to expose your arguments. I don't need to make any claims of my own. Let me draw out a little analogy. You are taught in school that 2 + 2 = 4, and you tell all your friends about it. You are in fact talking about it when along come Travis. Now Travis looks at you and says: That's not right. You're setting yourself up as an objective authority or as a party who has access to objective reality. You aren't and you don't. Oops. There's the mistake Robert. You see 2 + 2 does in fact equal 4, and to say otherwise is an easy avenue in which to base an argument. But an avenue that's flawed because it denies the truth. So you set up a strawman and then
Re: Minimal Profits for Halliburton
At 09:45 AM 1/11/04, Steve Sloan II wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: I don't know about financial models, but I do know that judgement, especially when immediate judgement on critical issues is necessary, is affected by fatigue. For one thing, tired people tend to be grumpy people, and may do things they later regret. I think both of us are looking at this issue from a programmer's viewpoint, where long hours usually *are* a sign of poor planning, either by the managers who didn't hire enough people, or on the software engineering side, where time for completing tasks was severely underestimated. That's true. (I'm sure all here have heard the rule for turning project time estimates into more realistic predictions: multiply the estimate by 2 and change to the next larger time unit, so an estimate of 1 day is in reality likely to take 2 weeks to complete, and an estimate of two months means it is likely to really take four years . . . and I won't even make another reference to The Mythical Man-Month . . . ) Actually, though, I wasn't thinking of programming examples when I wrote the earlier message. One profession where many people think fatigue is frequently the cause of serious (too often, fatal) errors is the medical profession. And as far as tired people being grumpy even if they don't want to be, and yelling at the people they really don't want to yell at, just ask any new parent, particularly a first-time parent . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Swearing, cussing
At 10:14 AM 1/11/04, Julia Thompson wrote: Julia who has called shotgun on a number of occasions and found that it's not always the wisest course if you're the smallest person in the party 'Cuz the kick of a 12-gauge is likely to knock you right on your a$$ . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Holy Blood Holy Grail
At 12:00 PM 1/11/04, Damon Agretto wrote: I never read the book, but ironically it came up as a subject on Mediev-L list I'm subscribed to. It was pretty heavily criticized as a crack-pot type interpretation of history. The main complaints, however, is that it did not follow standard historical methodology, such as making conclusions from unsupportable evidence, interpreting evidence out of context, and more importantly, ignoring (or failing to address) evidence that contradicts the main thesis of the book. Although occasionally advances in historical knowledge can occur by outsiders (i.e. non-professionals), more often than not these people have little to add (and therefore would be fine for pop or introductory history), or rather, lack training in methodology so that their conclusions are twisted or unsupportable. I liken it akin to if I talked about astronomy. I might have a lot of information about it, and generally could possibly even teach it, but any real new discoveries (beyond finding comets and other stellar bodies...I'm thinking more in the line of astrophysics or new theories) would be beyond me because I lack training in formal methodology of science and Astronomy research. Or you could do what some of us real astronomers do, and bull$hit a lot . . . Thread Confluence Maru At 12:08 PM 1/11/04, Damon Agretto wrote: Forgot to add that another thing a professional has going for him is a body of knowledge only a professional can have. Damon. Yep. If you know enough trivia, you can fill an entire lecture period and never say anything useful . . . Spring Term Classes Start Tomorrow Maru -- Ronn! :) Ronn Blankenship Instructor of Astronomy/Planetary Science University of Montevallo Montevallo, AL Disclaimer: Unless specifically stated otherwise, any opinions contained herein are the personal opinions of the author and do not represent the official position of the University of Montevallo. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Extraordinary Rendition
At 05:34 PM 1/11/04, Doug Pensinger wrote: Who hopes both you and your cat are better soon, the pipes aren't broken and you've got a good movie or two you can watch while the cable's out. 8^) I was going to say the same thing, but I guess I'll just say, Me, too! -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Habitable Planets: was Notes on Uplift
Trent Shipley wrote: Ok. But it's better to go back and set the Drake factors based on what we want to get in the end. Excellent idea! And then we can get back and estimate how many planets developed pre-sentient life _before_ the Progenitors came and destroyed their own planets causing self-extinction, based on the estimation that the Universe is some tens of thousands of millions of years old and that Galaxies might have existed from half to 1/10 of this time. N* = 100*10^9 (that is, 1.00E+11) fp = .75 (most systems have planets) ne = .25 (few could support life, partly a cheat factor) fl = 3.00E-05 (3/100,000 have life, entirely a cheat factor. Implies there are a lot of terraforming candidates) fi = 1 (ALL good planets get colonized) fc = 1 (If colonized, the setlers participate in O-2 Civ.) fL = .125 (7 times out of 8 a planet is fallow) This gives the number of planets that could *naturally* support life in the Milky Way N = 7.03E+04 Small, isn't it? 5 galaxies Total natural planets under GIM control = 2.81E+06 Total natural GIM leased planets = 5N = 3.52E+05 Natural/Terraformed = 1/6 Total GIM planets (B or C leasable) = 1.69E+07 (We don't count A class leases because they are in need of terraforming.) Total GIM B or C leases at present time = 2.11E+06 Giving us about 11.1 planets per race, which is close enough to 10. Yes, I think the mean of 10 is consistent with the data that Earth has 10 Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Health was Re: Extraordinary Rendition
At 06:34 PM 1/11/2004, you wrote: Kevin wrote: Responding to another list member's ghost post with hateful, hate filled clones: too upset to come up with more adjectives? I'd say you and your lot are the ones filled with hate and madness. I'm happy even with pipes in my kitchen frozen, the cable being out, my cat being sick and numerous (very minor) health problems of my own. Would you be happy to be deported, confined in a tiny cell and tortured for what amounts to a hint of a rumor? Dwell in your hatred, just don't let it consume you. He wasn't dwelling in his hatred, he was referring to the hatred expressed by the Bush administration by taking these extreme, fascist, racist measures. He's asking if we all think it's OK to combat people like bin Laden and Hussain by becoming more like them. What do you think? Do we just avert our eyes? -- Doug Who hopes both you and your cat are better soon, the pipes aren't broken and you've got a good movie or two you can watch while the cable's out. 8^) For myself I'll only get better when I die. (Not saying I believe in life after death, just the release from ills and pain part; and I don't expect that to happen for another 60 years. I have no major problems, just the little ones that can't get better.) The cat, I don't know. He's 14 at least (shelter rescue). I started giving him Iam's diet food. He has lost a lot of weight but now seems to be having hair-ball problems. I'm used to cats throwing up, but this one never had before this. I don't want to give details, just not fun. My pipes unfroze about an hour ago. They freeze every year and have not burst. It's just poor house design. The kitchen is on the back porch. Only the attic has insulation; the pipes run right to an outside wall then up, right above the outside basement door so lots of cold areas. Last summer I rewrapped the heat tape but still doesn't help on 5 F nights. Friday night they were free, but I should have run the hot water until hot water came out. I won't let it drip overnight, it does not help. And the cable got fixed today. I knew what the problem was and it took the guy five minutes. Where the cable comes down, outside between my house and the next, the cable end was bad and every time the neighbors took their garbage out or the kids running there, it got knocked loose. On Thursday, while I was home, it went out and I heard the neighbors. I came out to ask them to please watch the cable, but they were already in their car and gone. I went to put it back in but the internal cable had broken. Now, I know how to fix it, I was a TV repairman for three years. But for the amount of money Comcast charges, that I had called them twice already about it, and other BS I decided to call them again. Plus I have satellite and was working during Saturday's football games so no biggy. Now: I'm watching my attempt of making Cordon Blue go horribly wrong. And a woman I've been talking with for two months just stopped communicating, no reason just a I do not wish to pursue this anymore message; I got it 20 minutes ago. Kevin T. Suddenly tired ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Shrub's Conspiracy to Invade Iraq Revealed by Ex-Admin Official
--- The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/09/60minutes/printable592330.shtml From the very beginning, there was a conviction that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go, he tells Stahl. For me, the notion of pre-emption, that the U.S. has the unilateral right to do whatever we decide to do is a really huge leap, says O'Neill. snip So, is this a disgruntled employee snapping at the folks who fired him? Or is this former member of the Nixon and Ford admins blowing a whistle for good reason? ...In the book, ONeill says that the president did not make decisions in a methodical way: there was no free-flow of ideas or open debate...O'Neill is the only one who spoke on the record, but Suskind says that someone high up in the administration Donald Rumsfeld - warned ONeill not to do this book... ...During the campaign, candidate Bush had criticized the Clinton-Gore Administration for being too interventionist: If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road. And I'm going to prevent that. The thing that's most surprising, I think, is how emphatically, from the very first, the administration had said X during the campaign, but from the first day was often doing Y, says Suskind. Not just saying Y, but actively moving toward the opposite of what they had said during the election. ...The former treasury secretary accuses Vice President Dick Cheney of not being an honest broker, but, with a handful of others, part of a praetorian guard that encircled the president to block out contrary views. This is the way Dick likes it, says ONeill... Many of the people Bush has chosen to surround himself with - Cheney and Ashcroft in particular - are not friends of the Constitution, democracy, the common man or the rule of law. I am quite sure that I never learned in Civics class that indefinite detention, torture-by-proxy, and 'unquestioning belief is the only form of patriotism allowed' were core American values. Debbi But Some Are More Equal Than Others Maru :-/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Return of the King Review Re: my mini review
Travis Edmunds wrote: From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Return of the King Review Re: my mini review Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:04:51 -0600 The young think they know everything and are uninhibited in expressing that. Generalizing is a bad thing Robert. For me personally, I acknowledge my shortcomings, as well as my own merits. Which is admirable, but you won't totally get it until you're a little older. Unless you're *really* exceptional. I was a fair bit like you seem to be, when I was 20 or 21, and I acknowledge now that I didn't have as much of a handle on it as I do now. Your merits, as I see them from your posts so far, are laudable. Your shortcomings as they come through in your posts will probably be reduced noticeably in 5 years. Older people are much the same, but experience gives one reason to have doubts that The Facts are set in stone. To me, they seem to be set in silly putty and are waiting for a new days paradigm. I know what you mean, though perhaps in a more shallow frame of reference. I can draw those parallels to myself, from the time I was in high-school up until now. I also realize the deep water is yet to come; or so I'm told. Extrapolate high school-to-now by a doubling, at least, and that's what you can look forward to when you reach the ripe age of 30 or so. At least, this was *my* experience. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Extraordinary Rendition
At 02:24 PM 1/11/2004 -0600 The Fool wrote: http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2003_archives/003029.html The Maher Arar Case Impeach George Bush and Richard Cheney. Impeach them now. We are the United States of America. We do not do things like this. I am personally shocked that the ordinarily sensible Brad DeLong would write something like this. Anyhow, I will now humbly wait for all of the Brin-L's resident liberals to point out that interrogtating a foreigner without a lawyer (if indeed that this story is true) does not constitute a high crime and misdemeanor. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Double Standards on Regional Bigotry
At 06:34 PM 1/11/2004 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/10/2004 4:25:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Personally, if you want to talk about pandering, I'll talk abotu a party that collects 90% of the vote of people of a certain race. That's only *possible* via pandering Alternately, it may be the result of the policies of the republican party with regard to the welfare of that race (by the way which race are we talkng about). And of course the fact that the republican party gets over 90% of the vote of a religous groups with certain philosophies or certain aspects of the economic sector is not pandering? Of course the Republican Party is terrible for African Americans. That is why 30 years of unquestioning, nearly unanmious, support for the Democratic Party has produced such a substantial improvement in the welfare of African Americans. Your last sentence, BTW, is not at all true. JDG - Three guesses as to what a major religious component of African-Americans is. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Not Bush2 (Was Shrub's Conspiracy to Invade Iraq Revealed byEx-Admin Official)
At 12:55 AM 1/11/2004 -0700 Trent Shipley wrote: I like Thomas Friedman's idea that GW Bush's presidency is *NOT* Bush II, but Reagan III, or even better, Regan Squared. 50 years from now, historians will refer to 12 years of Bush-Clinton interrupting the Reagan-Dubya Administrations. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Double Standards on Regional Bigotry
The Fool wrote: Bullshit. The Republican party is _built_ on confederate loving, racist, bigoted, bible thumping fundamentalists in the south. Republicans couldn't win without the bigot vote. Republicans like Rush, and Buchanan, routinely pander to bigoted southerners. How interesting. We learned here in Brazil that the Republican Party was Lincoln's Party, and that Lincoln made war against the South Separatists. Which one of these two statements is wrong? Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Swearing, cussing
Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Julia Thompson wrote: Julia who has called shotgun on a number of occasions and found that it's not always the wisest course if you're the smallest person in the party 'Cuz the kick of a 12-gauge is likely to knock you right on your a$$ . . . *Ronn* I am shocked, _shocked_ suh, at yo' potty mouth! If you must refer to the human gluteus maximus area, you should speak French [derriere] or Yiddish [tushie (sp??)] or Equine [donkey]. Debbi Roll The Bones Maru ;) __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Extraordinary Rendition
Anyhow, I will now humbly wait for all of the Brin-L's resident liberals to point out that interrogtating a foreigner without a lawyer (if indeed that this story is true) does not constitute a high crime and misdemeanor. Don't ever travel in a foreign country in case you get on the wrong side of someone official who decides to treat you like we treated this guy. (Heck, if Ashcroft has his way much longer, don't travel in this country.) It's not the interrogating a foreigner without a lawyer that's so objectionable (even though many court cases say that foreigners arrested in this country have some of the same rights as citizens and lawful residents; and, in any case, foreigners arrested in this country are entitled by treaty to speak with someone from their embassy or consulate; and we don't normally deport them to a third country in order to be tortured - what part of interrogating is that?). We don't arrest people in this country without probable cause. That applies to foreigners, too. Either there are rights for all, or there aren't really RIGHTS for anyone. To let this continue risks them deciding to do it to anyone they want for any reason - or none. I am completely unable to understand why you dismiss this so cavalierly. Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Physics Quiz
Robert Seeberger wrote: http://intuitor.com/physics_test/PhysicsSavvy.html 77.5 % Embarrassing xponent But At Least I Passed Without Study G Maru rob I got 90-something, after spending lots of work trying to see how picky to be in answering the questions. It does not help that the technical terms are often avoided, and one is left guessing what was meant. And the grading is off--I answered false to this one, and got it wrong, because the correct answer is false: 7) To produce heat, the Sun burns hydrogen in a combustion reaction. Your Answer: false View Explanation ---David ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Shrub's Conspiracy to Invade Iraq Revealed by Ex-Admin Official
At 05:42 PM 1/11/2004 -0800 Deborah Harrell wrote: So, is this a disgruntled employee snapping at the folks who fired him? Or is this former member of the Nixon and Ford admins blowing a whistle for good reason? I think almost certainly the former. The piece opens with O'Neill criticizing the way that Bush runs Cabinet Meetings. It sounds an awful like he just did not fit into the operational culture of The White House, as there is a lot of evidence that Bush's CEO style has managed conflicting ideas from his staff fairly well in my mind. At any rate, who cares about this stuff?About the most damning claim O'Neill has is that Bush actually had far more pre-planning for the war in Iraq than we have previously none. So, we are going to pillory Bush for planning ahead? JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 10:12 PM 1/5/2004 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you condone his behavior or not? No, I do not condone the abuse of prescription drugs. Lets get back to Plame. Do you condone the outing of a CIA operative? I do not condone the outing of a CIA operative. JDG - As long as we are being technical. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 10:22 PM 1/5/2004 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a Catholic, I find it completely unsuprising that a sinner would admit to wrongdoing only when caught. Such is human nature. Yeh, kind of like lying about affairs. So? Clinton had a much higher responsibility, like to faithfully uphold and defend the laws of the United States. Rush is just a talk radio show host, who has said a lot of intersting things in his life that had nothing to do with drugs. There is nothing about what he was doing with drugs that at all affects the validity or interesting nature of his opinions. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Extraordinary Rendition
From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 02:24 PM 1/11/2004 -0600 The Fool wrote: http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2003_archives/003029.html The Maher Arar Case Impeach George Bush and Richard Cheney. Impeach them now. We are the United States of America. We do not do things like this. I am personally shocked that the ordinarily sensible Brad DeLong would write something like this. Why? He has written similarly at least a dozen times in the past few months. Brad is an enemy of shrubCo, have no doubt. Anyhow, I will now humbly wait for all of the Brin-L's resident liberals to point out that interrogtating a foreigner without a lawyer (if indeed that this story is true) does not constitute a high crime and misdemeanor. As opposed to impeaching someone for a blowjob? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Shrub's Conspiracy to Invade Iraq Revealed by Ex-Admin Official
At any rate, who cares about this stuff? About the most damning claim O'Neill has is that Bush actually had far more pre-planning for the war in Iraq than we have previously none. So, we are going to pillory Bush for planning ahead? Um...well...considering that he never mentioned any of this at any point, and that the reasons he's given for invading Iraq have turned out not to be the case (no WMD, no real Al Qaeda connection, no responsibility for 9-11) - doesn't it bother you at ALL that this man appears to have come into office planning an aggressive war against a country that we now know (and he must have known then) did not really pose any threat to us? I repeat: this is not the Pentagon having contingency plans. After all, I doubt seriously that the Bush White House was calling up the plans for war against Argentina or Belgium. Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 10:29 PM 1/5/2004 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/3/2004 6:48:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In general, however, I have no problem with Rush Limbaugh using all of the Laws of Florida - even potentially those laws he may have disagreed with - in his legal defence.In my mind, that's not hypocrisy - that's life. You are such a tolerant soul. It so good that you are willing to grant humans their frailties. But it would seem to me that using a legal technique for your personal defense that you have condemned for others qualifies as an index example of the human frailty called hypocricy Let me use a relevant example. Would it be hypocrisy for a high school student who believes that the Federal Education Loan program is unconstitutional under the limited powers clause to accept federal education loans to go to college?Even though the existance of these loans have caused the prices of higher education to skyrocket? I answer no to that question it would *not* be hypocrisy in my mind. Indeed, the existance of these loans have so distorted the market for higher education, in terms of driving private loans out of the market and escalating the price that it would be only sensible to accept these loans, even in spite of one's views. JDG - Who does not consider education loans to be unconstitutional. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Double Standards on Regional Bigotry
At 01:51 AM 1/12/2004 + Alberto Monteiro wrote: The Fool wrote: The Republican party is _built_ on confederate loving, racist, bigoted, bible thumping fundamentalists in the south. Republicans couldn't win without the bigot vote. Republicans like Rush, and Buchanan, routinely pander to bigoted southerners. How interesting. We learned here in Brazil that the Republican Party was Lincoln's Party, and that Lincoln made war against the South Separatists. Which one of these two statements is wrong? Both are correct. The South of the United States no longer casts votes on racial issues, but does cast votes on religious/cultural conservatism issues. This has led to the once Democratic Solid South becoming the Republican Solid South. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Double Standards on Regional Bigotry
From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool wrote: Bullshit. The Republican party is _built_ on confederate loving, racist, bigoted, bible thumping fundamentalists in the south. Republicans couldn't win without the bigot vote. Republicans like Rush, and Buchanan, routinely pander to bigoted southerners. How interesting. We learned here in Brazil that the Republican Party was Lincoln's Party, and that Lincoln made war against the South Separatists. Which one of these two statements is wrong? It's simple really. Nixon beytayed Lincoln's party and remade it in the image of the confederacy. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Shrub's Conspiracy to Invade Iraq Revealed by Ex-Admin Official
John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Deborah Harrell wrote: So, is this a disgruntled employee snapping at the folks who fired him? Or is this former member of the Nixon and Ford admins blowing a whistle for good reason? I think almost certainly the former. grin I daresay I have correctly guesstimated the way most of the active Brinellers will have answered my rhetorical questions! The piece opens with O'Neill criticizing the way that Bush runs Cabinet Meetings. It sounds an awful like he just did not fit into the operational culture of The White House, as there is a lot of evidence that Bush's CEO style has managed conflicting ideas from his staff fairly well in my mind. At any rate, who cares about this stuff? snip grim I also wrote: Many of the people Bush has chosen to surround himself with - Cheney and Ashcroft in particular - are not friends of the Constitution, democracy, the common man or the rule of law. I am quite sure that I never learned in Civics class that indefinite detention, torture-by-proxy, and 'unquestioning belief is the only form of patriotism allowed' were core American values. If the premier leader of the free world acts 'cavalierly' about some important topics, and does not appear to understand basic underlying principles of American government, we had all _better_ care. It is one thing to plan for a possible necessity -- another to make the merely possible seem imperitive. Debbi __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Physics Quiz
At 08:08 PM 1/11/04, David Hobby wrote: Robert Seeberger wrote: http://intuitor.com/physics_test/PhysicsSavvy.html 77.5 % Embarrassing xponent But At Least I Passed Without Study G Maru rob I got 90-something, after spending lots of work trying to see how picky to be in answering the questions. It does not help that the technical terms are often avoided, and one is left guessing what was meant. And the grading is off--I answered false to this one, and got it wrong, because the correct answer is false: 7) To produce heat, the Sun burns hydrogen in a combustion reaction. Your Answer: false View Explanation So what was their explanation for claiming that the correct answer should be true? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Extraordinary Rendition
At 08:12 PM 1/11/2004 -0600 The Fool wrote: As opposed to impeaching someone for ? Perjury. JDG - Not that someone who posts daily complaints objecting to lying by the Administration would understand. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Shrub's Conspiracy to Invade Iraq Revealed by Ex-Admin Official
At 09:14 PM 1/11/2004 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Um...well...considering that he never mentioned any of this at any point, and that the reasons he's given for invading Iraq have turned out not to be the case (no WMD, no real Al Qaeda connection, no responsibility for 9-11) - doesn't it bother you at ALL that this man appears to have come into office planning an aggressive war against a country that we now know (and he must have known then) did not really pose any threat to us? If you go back and look at almost any major speech on the subject by the Bush Administration, you will not find the case presented as you did above. Instead, the case included: 1) Iraq was blatantly not complying with 12 years worth of United Nations resolutions. (Thus, there were many aspects of Iraq's WMD programs we could not be certain of. However, we did know that Iraq was clearly acting as if they were hiding something.) 2) Iraq was oppressing the freedoms and rights of 38 million people. 3) Invading Iraq would save the lives of the millions of Iraqis who were starving, dying from lack of treatment, and being murdered - all by Saddam. In addition, there were two very strong reasons for invading Iraq that the Bush Administration clearly recognized yet could not, and indeed, could NEVER publicly state to the American people. 4) Invading Iraq would allow us to remove our troops from the Muslim Holy Land of Saudi Arabia, thus removing a key recruiting tool of Al Qaeda 5) So long as Saddam was in Iraq, we had an obligation to defend Saudi Arabia - which was very clearly viewed as extreme hypocrisy by much of the world, and indeed, particularly the Arab world. Indeed, US support for Saudi oppression was a key feature of Al Qaeda's recruitment efforts. A liberated Iraq, however, would allow the US to less visibly support Saudi oppression, and indeed, allow us to begin to subtly work to end Saudi oppression. These last two reasons are all the reason we needed to invade Iraq and I hope you can see that it is self-evident that we can't exactly go trumpeting the fact that we are basically going along with at least part of two key Al Qaeda demands - removing our troops from the Muslim Holy Land and ending overt and visible support for the Saudi oppressors. I repeat: this is not the Pentagon having contingency plans. After all, I doubt seriously that the Bush White House was calling up the plans for war against Argentina or Belgium. That's because the Bush Administration lives in the land of reality.And given our so-called intelligence on the nuclear programs of Pakistan, India, Iran, and the DPRK over the past decade, the Bush Administration would have been very wise to keep such contingency plans on tap, in case our intelligence' failed us as badly in Iraq as in those countries. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Extraordinary Rendition
At 08:56 PM 1/11/2004 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am completely unable to understand why you dismiss this so cavalierly. I am not dismissing this cavalierly. The person being cavalier here is the former *Clinton* Administration Official who is calling for *impeachment*. That's cavalier. For the record: 1) If there is unreliable information on this List, it is surely information from a liberal blog reposted by another liberal log and then reposted here by Brin-l's chief propagandia officer.I am not at all convinced that I am dealing with a full deck of facts here. 2) I support a law making it illegal for the US to turn over any person of any sort to countries on the State Dept.'s torture list. 3) Assuming we have all the facts here, it looks like someone screwed up here. This should not have happened. I expect that after a protest from the Canadian embassy, assuming that all of these facts hold up, that the fact that this was a mistake will be admitted. This looks like the sort of story that, if true, would produce outrage in the mainstream press - not just on liberal blogs. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Physics Quiz
In a message dated 1/11/2004 7:31:20 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 7) To produce heat, the Sun burns hydrogen in a combustion reaction. Your Answer: false View Explanation So what was their explanation for claiming that the correct answer should be true? -- Ronn! :) You took the test at night, right? Vilyehm Teighlore ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 10:19 PM 1/5/2004 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/3/2004 6:30:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Point 1 _ There seems to be no debate on the fact that Halliburton overcharged. Even the incredibly pro-business Bush administration is not making your claim. Halliburton overcharged period. Not true. A NY Times invetigation of this story found no significant profiteering by Haliburton. What is not true? Some one (I don't know if it was you or not) claimed that it was not really overcharging. I am still waiting for any one of the conservatives on the list to state up front that overcharging is a crime that must be pursued. Why? Do you think that any conservatives on this List are going to disagree with President Bush's statements that essentially say that?Or do you expect that all of us disagree with Bush on this point? So is that a yes? Yes. Bush himself said that there should be a full investigation. Heck it was Rumsfeld's own Defense Dept. that first raised the questions about this. At any rate, I highly doubt that any conservative on this List would contradict President Bush's judgment that there should be a full investitgation. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 10:14 PM 1/5/2004 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/3/2004 6:30:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's funny and ironic. My Dad recently accused me of always seeing sinister motivations among the right, and being far quicker to criticize conservatives lately than liberals. Well we all have different relationships with our dads. Rest assured I have never seen you to be hard on conservatives. Could you give us an example of being hard on conservatives on list? I think that it is important for you to remember, however, what an ideological bubble Brin-L is. For example, I am probably considered by most the be the most religious person on this List. Yet, I am a Catholic... which instantly points out that we have no Evangelicals on this List.Moreover, as a Catholic, I am fairly middle-of-the-road by many measures. I don't, for example, attend Daily Mass - which is generally the first mark of the truly conservative Catholics. A good example of this - I disagree pretty strongly with the Catholic Church on the issue of contraception and disagree with certain Vatican statemets on homosexuals in the priesthood.Yet, we don't talk about these things here because I highly doubt that there is anyone on this List who wants the defend the Catholic Church's teaching on contraception nor advocate a ban on homsexuals in the priesthood. While this example comes from the religious side of the spectrum, it highlights the general trend with Brin-L.The vast majority of Brin-L posters on political disscussions are far left to center-left. Thus, it becomes an ideological bubble where very little of the debates on the right take place, except for maybe an occasional disagreement between Gautam and I. Yet, there is no one on this List who is regularly reposting the articles and views of conservatives like Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, Pat Buchanan, John Derbyshire, etc. whom I disagree with all of the time. Thus, when debates are kept solidly on the far-left to center-left, the disagreements on the right never really show up. Lastly, it is worth noting that I am essentially a neoconservative, and thus the Bush Administration is like a dream come true for me - to the extent the real politicians can fulfill dreams. I would never have imagine five years ago that we would have a President capable of giving the axis of evil speech - let alone so many other incredible speeches. Likewise, in sort of the same way that Bill Clinton was called by some liberals our first black President, when I hear Bush talk about the Culture of Life, I feel like we similarly have our nation's second Catholic President.On several other issues like faith-based-initiatives, immigration reform, Social Security, and space exploration, Bush gets extremely high marks from me. Thus, when Bush is essentially everything I could hope for in a President - you just aren't going to see a lot of criticism of the Bush Administration in particular from me. However, Bush has plenty of his criticis on the right - just listen to talk radio some day. Of course, here on Brin-L the idea of Bush being attacked on the right is almost inconceivable, so again, you never seen these sorts of things. JDG - Now, if he could just balance the budget in the second term.. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Minimal Profits for Halliburton
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 09:45 AM 1/11/04, Steve Sloan II wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: I don't know about financial models, but I do know that judgement, especially when immediate judgement on critical issues is necessary, is affected by fatigue. For one thing, tired people tend to be grumpy people, and may do things they later regret. I think both of us are looking at this issue from a programmer's viewpoint, where long hours usually *are* a sign of poor planning, either by the managers who didn't hire enough people, or on the software engineering side, where time for completing tasks was severely underestimated. That's true. (I'm sure all here have heard the rule for turning project time estimates into more realistic predictions: multiply the estimate by 2 and change to the next larger time unit, so an estimate of 1 day is in reality likely to take 2 weeks to complete, and an estimate of two months means it is likely to really take four years . . . and I won't even make another reference to The Mythical Man-Month . . . ) Ah, but it's an excellent book. Anyone trying to manage a programming project ought to read it, IMO, and it's worth reading even if you're *not* trying to manage programming projects. (Did I ever mention having been on a bus briefly with Brooks?) Actually, though, I wasn't thinking of programming examples when I wrote the earlier message. One profession where many people think fatigue is frequently the cause of serious (too often, fatal) errors is the medical profession. And as far as tired people being grumpy even if they don't want to be, and yelling at the people they really don't want to yell at, just ask any new parent, particularly a first-time parent . . . Yep. What he said Julia There and Doing That (and contemplating the t-shirt) Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Swearing, cussing
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 10:14 AM 1/11/04, Julia Thompson wrote: Julia who has called shotgun on a number of occasions and found that it's not always the wisest course if you're the smallest person in the party 'Cuz the kick of a 12-gauge is likely to knock you right on your a$$ . . . -- Ronn! :) Or the kicking the back of your seat by the larger people jammed into the backseat. Plus the grumbling. And heaven forbid your spouse was one of the people in the backseat Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Double Standards on Regional Bigotry
Alberto Monteiro wrote: The Fool wrote: Bullshit. The Republican party is _built_ on confederate loving, racist, bigoted, bible thumping fundamentalists in the south. Republicans couldn't win without the bigot vote. Republicans like Rush, and Buchanan, routinely pander to bigoted southerners. How interesting. We learned here in Brazil that the Republican Party was Lincoln's Party, and that Lincoln made war against the South Separatists. Which one of these two statements is wrong? Parties shift over time. The party of Lincoln has changed since he took office in 1860; heck, it's changed since 1960. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Extraordinary Rendition
From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] This looks like the sort of story that, if true, would produce outrage in the mainstream press - not just on liberal blogs. You mean like the Washington Post, where this story _Originated_ several months ago? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
J.D. Goes Hard on Conservatives
O.k., in response to Bob Z.'s challenge, I am going to do nothing but criticize conservatives in this post. 1) George W. Bush allowed too many people to be executed in Texas. (I opposed to the death penalty in almost all cases.) 2) Any Republican who criticizes the Bush Administration's recently proposed immigration policy is wrong - this is a great policy that, if anything, does not go far enough. They are doubly wrong if they think that was only proposed to pander to a certain ethnic group. It is the right policy, it is good for America and it is good for Hispanics. They are tripply wrong if they criticize it on the grounds of not respecting the law. America's current immigration laws are disastrous and non-sensical.Perhaps the dumbest comment on this issue comes from Sean Hannity who correctly notes that a guest-worker program is a necessity, but incredibly, proposes to exclude all the illegal immigrants over here who already have jobs. Hannity also incredibly thinks that this is a disastrous thing for our borders - when in fact, by making it much easier to enter the country, the Bush Administration will effectively put the old coyotes - professional human smugglers - out of business, thus making it much harder to sneak into the United States. 3) President Bush is wrong to have underfunded the US National Park System. The crown jewels of America should not be falling into disrepair and suffer from critical understaffing. 4) Any Republican who doesn't admit that the war on drugs is a failure is whistling in the dark. This probably includes just about every politicians in America, sadly, Democrat or Republican. There needs to be a basic recognition that demand creates supply, and prohibition simply increases the price - and incentive to supply. 5) President Bush was wrong to abandon his proposed carbon emissions trading program. 6) The Catholic Church should recognize that non-abortifacent contraceptive pills are not inherently sinful, and are instead a new technological development not forseen by previous theologians. (Note, conservative Catholics love the ban on contraception.) 7) The Catholic Church should welcome homosexuals into the priesthood, as the natural conclusion of the celibate lifestyle it currently teaches that homosexuals are called to. 8) The Catholic Church is far too prone to over-officiousness. The new General Instructions of the Roman Missal, which seems a product of the Church's conservative wing, is entirely symptomatic of this problem. 9) President Bush should have found a way to veto at least one spending bill at some point. A 50% increase in transporation spending since 2000, while an entirely understandable outcome of a nearly 50/50 Congress, still seems like much too much in our current fiscal situation. (Couldn't these Congressmen have been bought off with increased National Park spending? :) 10) I oppose the isolationist wing of the Republican Party who advocate withdrawl from the WTO and opposed the invasion of Iraq and the expansion of NATO. 11) I oppose all anti-sodomy laws that criminalize homosexual behavior. 12) I think that the tablet of the 10 Commandments in the Alabama courtroom was unconstitutional. 13) The National March for Life is wrong to prevent Homosexuals for Life from being an official sponsor of the March. 14) The conservatives who have criticized President Bush for praying in a mosque are wrong. Ditto fot those who criticized the Pope for doing that. Ditto for those who criticized President Bush for calling Islam a religion of peace. 15) President Bush should have pushed harder for his faith-based-initiatives, particularly as a part of tackling the larger problem of urban renewal. 16) I think that I disagree with almost everything that Pat Robertson says. Anyhow, I am sure that there are many more, but I hope that I've made my point JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Physics Quiz
At 08:40 PM 1/11/04, Vilyehm Teighlore wrote: In a message dated 1/11/2004 7:31:20 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 7) To produce heat, the Sun burns hydrogen in a combustion reaction. Your Answer: false View Explanation So what was their explanation for claiming that the correct answer should be true? -- Ronn! :) You took the test at night, right? No comprehende. -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Minimal Profits for Halliburton
At 08:55 PM 1/11/04, Julia Thompson wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 09:45 AM 1/11/04, Steve Sloan II wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: I don't know about financial models, but I do know that judgement, especially when immediate judgement on critical issues is necessary, is affected by fatigue. For one thing, tired people tend to be grumpy people, and may do things they later regret. I think both of us are looking at this issue from a programmer's viewpoint, where long hours usually *are* a sign of poor planning, either by the managers who didn't hire enough people, or on the software engineering side, where time for completing tasks was severely underestimated. That's true. (I'm sure all here have heard the rule for turning project time estimates into more realistic predictions: multiply the estimate by 2 and change to the next larger time unit, so an estimate of 1 day is in reality likely to take 2 weeks to complete, and an estimate of two months means it is likely to really take four years . . . and I won't even make another reference to The Mythical Man-Month . . . ) Ah, but it's an excellent book. Anyone trying to manage a programming project ought to read it, IMO, and it's worth reading even if you're *not* trying to manage programming projects. I agree! I have praised it so many times on this list that I thought I'd give everyone a break from doing so again. (Someday maybe I should even buy a copy to call my own.) (Did I ever mention having been on a bus briefly with Brooks?) No. Anything interesting to report? Actually, though, I wasn't thinking of programming examples when I wrote the earlier message. One profession where many people think fatigue is frequently the cause of serious (too often, fatal) errors is the medical profession. And as far as tired people being grumpy even if they don't want to be, and yelling at the people they really don't want to yell at, just ask any new parent, particularly a first-time parent . . . Yep. What he said Julia There and Doing That (and contemplating the t-shirt) Maru Probably contemplating *any* shirt without spit-up on it . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Swearing, cussing
At 07:53 PM 1/11/04, Deborah Harrell wrote: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Julia Thompson wrote: Julia who has called shotgun on a number of occasions and found that it's not always the wisest course if you're the smallest person in the party 'Cuz the kick of a 12-gauge is likely to knock you right on your a$$ . . . *Ronn* I am shocked, _shocked_ suh, at yo' potty mouth! If you must refer to the human gluteus maximus area, you should speak French [derriere] or Yiddish [tushie (sp??)] Tukus, IIRC. or Equine [donkey]. If you fire one while sitting on a donkey, it is likely to knock you right off your ass. And if the donkey in question is like most of the donkeys I have ridden in my life, you are likely to get to walk all the way home and find that the donkey has been waiting there for you for a long time . . . Faithful Steed My Ass Maru -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Minimal Profits for Halliburton
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 08:55 PM 1/11/04, Julia Thompson wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 09:45 AM 1/11/04, Steve Sloan II wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: I don't know about financial models, but I do know that judgement, especially when immediate judgement on critical issues is necessary, is affected by fatigue. For one thing, tired people tend to be grumpy people, and may do things they later regret. I think both of us are looking at this issue from a programmer's viewpoint, where long hours usually *are* a sign of poor planning, either by the managers who didn't hire enough people, or on the software engineering side, where time for completing tasks was severely underestimated. That's true. (I'm sure all here have heard the rule for turning project time estimates into more realistic predictions: multiply the estimate by 2 and change to the next larger time unit, so an estimate of 1 day is in reality likely to take 2 weeks to complete, and an estimate of two months means it is likely to really take four years . . . and I won't even make another reference to The Mythical Man-Month . . . ) Ah, but it's an excellent book. Anyone trying to manage a programming project ought to read it, IMO, and it's worth reading even if you're *not* trying to manage programming projects. I agree! I have praised it so many times on this list that I thought I'd give everyone a break from doing so again. (Someday maybe I should even buy a copy to call my own.) (Did I ever mention having been on a bus briefly with Brooks?) No. Anything interesting to report? Not really. Just that I was on the same bus as he was, and realized just who it was before I saw the nametag to confirm, just from what he'd been talking about. I thought it was cool. (This was at Siggraph in 2000. That's the same week I last had a meal with Hector Yee, as well -- we had lunch together one day at a Chinese restaurant near the convention center in New Orleans.) Actually, though, I wasn't thinking of programming examples when I wrote the earlier message. One profession where many people think fatigue is frequently the cause of serious (too often, fatal) errors is the medical profession. And as far as tired people being grumpy even if they don't want to be, and yelling at the people they really don't want to yell at, just ask any new parent, particularly a first-time parent . . . Yep. What he said Julia There and Doing That (and contemplating the t-shirt) Maru Probably contemplating *any* shirt without spit-up on it . . . Acutally, I've had this shirt on since I got out of the shower last night before bed, and it has remained free of spit-up by some miracle. My *pants*, on the other hand Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Bledsoe and the Bills Re: NHL observation
At 11:59 PM 1/4/2004 -0500 Bryon Daly wrote: I used to hate the Bills (sorry John!), back from around the Giants-Bills superbowl days. I forgive you I used to hate the Denver Broncos for always going to the Super Bowl and losing for the AFC - because I *hated* an idea that was gaining currency at the time of abolishing the Conferences, since the AFC was regularly getting blown out in the Super Bowl. I was pretty young at the time though and didn't know better and come 1998 I was rooting really, really, hard for John Elway and the Broncos. I'm a big Drew Bledsoe fan (he's a total class act), though, so once they traded Bledsoe to Buffalo, I started routing for the Bills a bit. I'd really like to see him succeed. (John - any thoughts on Bledsoe? A lot of fans in Boston loved him, but many hated him. I'm curious if Buffalo fans are thinking the same thing now, with his recent not-so-great season.) Drew Bledsoe is on very thin ice in Buffalo.I don't think that there are words to describe how incredibly horrible he was this year. I watch an awful lot of football, and I have rarely seen such a disastrous performance from a QB.Basically, despite playing with a horrible offensive line, throwing to subpar WR's, and getting plays from a pretty horrible offensive coordinator, Drew Bledsoe nevertheless showed almost zero pocket presence, ability to avoid the rush, precision throwing ability, gamemanship/leadership, and decision making.A classic example of his lack of awareness of the game was when he was driving down the field late in the 4th quarter, down by 10 points. he somewhat miraculously dodged a rushing lineman, and even more incredibly, actually threw the ball away to avoid the sack... all things he did very little of this year, except it was 4th down. Bledsoe had lost track of the downs and the game was over. Argh... Anyhow, the Bills will almost certainly select a QB on the first day of the draft, and if the Bills decide to keep Bledsoe for next year, he really has a small window of opportunity to become a competent NFL QB again. Overall, it kind of leaves me pretty conflicted, since there's no teams in my division that I can freely despise. :-) Buffalo has it easy. We *hate* the Dolphins, and will always hate the Dolphins. JDG - Buffalo is the only city in America where they sell dolphin-tuna mix. ;-) ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Snarling at the state of medicine
Vent time: I just spent nearly an hour doing research and on-the-phone with a friend who has an adrenal tumor of uncertain significance (most incidentalomas of the adrenal glands turn out to be benign); she's had a number of tests but her care has not been coordinated AT ALL and no one has explained ANYTHING of substance to her. In addition, one test was definitely abnormal, but instead of repeating it to check for accuracy they did a *different* test, telling her it was the 'gold standard.' Well it's NOT!!! It's considered useful in following one particular kind of adrenal secretory tumor, and it might someday become the gold standard, but *right now* the test that came back definitely abnormal (I saw the results) IS the standard-of-care. lip curled Disgraceful! That a patient can have talked with 2 docs, a nurse and a lab tech, and still not have been properly informed about her tests... Debbi who strongly advises anyone with medical problems to educate themselves, and not to hesitate to be a seriously squeaky wheel :( __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Shrub's Conspiracy to Invade Iraq Revealed by Ex-Admin Official
John wrote: If you go back and look at almost any major speech on the subject by the Bush Administration, you will not find the case presented as you did above. Sorry, John, this is completely revisionist. I posted a URL to Colin Powell's speech to the U.N. several months back while discussing this topic. He spent about 95% of the speech pointing out the evidence for WMDs in order to justify the invasion. There was one paragraph relating to the plight of the Iraqi people. The Bush administration sold this war to us by telling us Iraq was a threat. Period. any attempt to deny this is pure, unadulterated, bovine fecal matter. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
