RE: U.S. health care
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jon louis mann Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:04 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: U.S. health care Why do we behave the way we behave? What has become of us? Where is our soul? DUMPED ON SKID ROW - Hospitals drop homeless patients on the city's Skid Row, sometimes dressed in only a flimsy gown and without a wheel chair, even if they're not healthy enough to fend for themselves. Anderson Cooper reports on the practice known as hospital dumping. The first thing that comes to mind is that this is an expectable, albeit immoral, response to the mess that hospitals find themselves in with regard to treatment of the indigent. I have had some extended conversations with my brother-in-law (a physician who has a low income private practice in Northern Michigan (he sees a lot of Medicaid patients, and the area is very poor). We agreed that what is needed is a system in which everyone can get a Chevy, but you have to pay your own money if you want a BMW. The system we have now is that a hospital is not required to take any given patient (I think there are exceptions for some public hospitals such as Ben Taub in Houston). However, once a patient is in, they must be afforded the best care available...until they meet discharge criteria. This is an overwhelming cost to the hospitals, with virtually no hope of recovering the costs. Insurance companies have the leverage to bargain down bills...as anyone who has seen a hospital bill before and after adjustments can tell. So, the bills for those paying privately are through the roof...especially if they do not pre-pay an negotiated amount. For example, we got a bill for 50k for the use of an operating room, a day in intermediate care, and 2 days in a regular room.and had to prove that we pre-paid a negotiated 12,500. The insurance rates were lower than this, of course...so the hospitals can only recoup so much of indigent care from insurance coverage for other patients. Given this, we can see why hospitals would be strongly motivated to release indigent patients that meet discharge criteria...particularly those who are candidates for extensive expensive care. While this is certainly wrong, I think the real problem is the system. And, fixing this is not as easy as Moore might suggest. As it stands, over 16% of GDP is spent on health care.and this is with a significant fraction of Americans obtaining sub-standard care If everyone was given the BMW service, this would rise to 20% to 25% quickly. As it stands, costs are expected to rise to 20% within 10 years, which means that BMW care for all would cost 25%-30% within 10 years. There are a lot of things that can be done to address these costs, but they will involve sacrifices by average people who now have good insurance. We will have to allow, as do other countries, government bureaucrats to decide services that will be offered as well as waiting lists for non-emergency procedures. This problem is a good one for discussion here. However, it will not be solved by polemics that provide simple stories with heroes and villains like that provided by Moore. There is a hard way out for this, just no easy way out. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: U.S. health care
One way would be to have a string of simple health clinics that could do checkups and make ordinary repairs - stitches, shots, setting broken bones, monitoring diabetics, etc - and refer people to other facilities if there were problems. They need not be staffed by doctors: they could be staffed by medics, paramedics, medtechs, nurse-practitioners, etc - with a doctor on call who also made the rounds of the clinics on a regular schedule. As it is, I know a fair number of people who go to herbalists and other alternative practitioners for a lot of their health care, partly because of all the hassle and expense involved in using the health care system. If anyone wants to howl about witchcraft, all I can say is, the witch gives decent service at affordable prices, and is usually either an experienced practitioner of traditional medicine (hence with a long tradition of knowing when to send the patient to Public Health) or a college-educated person of a New Age persuasion. And both the latter are far more skilled at taking care of the patient's emotional, spiritual, and family-oriented needs than the health care system (which for the most part does not address them.) For example: a Navajo veteran might see the VA for combat wounds, but for PTSD would also have an Enemy Way Sing done, and the sing can be very effective. http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ 'Earth is just a starter planet.' Stephen Colbert From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com To: 'Killer Bs Discussion' brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: RE: U.S. health care Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 10:21:12 -0500 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jon louis mann Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:04 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: U.S. health care Why do we behave the way we behave? What has become of us? Where is our soul? DUMPED ON SKID ROW - Hospitals drop homeless patients on the city's Skid Row, sometimes dressed in only a flimsy gown and without a wheel chair, even if they're not healthy enough to fend for themselves. Anderson Cooper reports on the practice known as hospital dumping. The first thing that comes to mind is that this is an expectable, albeit immoral, response to the mess that hospitals find themselves in with regard to treatment of the indigent. I have had some extended conversations with my brother-in-law (a physician who has a low income private practice in Northern Michigan (he sees a lot of Medicaid patients, and the area is very poor). We agreed that what is needed is a system in which everyone can get a Chevy, but you have to pay your own money if you want a BMW. The system we have now is that a hospital is not required to take any given patient (I think there are exceptions for some public hospitals such as Ben Taub in Houston). However, once a patient is in, they must be afforded the best care available...until they meet discharge criteria. This is an overwhelming cost to the hospitals, with virtually no hope of recovering the costs. Insurance companies have the leverage to bargain down bills...as anyone who has seen a hospital bill before and after adjustments can tell. So, the bills for those paying privately are through the roof...especially if they do not pre-pay an negotiated amount. For example, we got a bill for 50k for the use of an operating room, a day in intermediate care, and 2 days in a regular room.and had to prove that we pre-paid a negotiated 12,500. The insurance rates were lower than this, of course...so the hospitals can only recoup so much of indigent care from insurance coverage for other patients. Given this, we can see why hospitals would be strongly motivated to release indigent patients that meet discharge criteria...particularly those who are candidates for extensive expensive care. While this is certainly wrong, I think the real problem is the system. And, fixing this is not as easy as Moore might suggest. As it stands, over 16% of GDP is spent on health care.and this is with a significant fraction of Americans obtaining sub-standard care If everyone was given the BMW service, this would rise to 20% to 25% quickly. As it stands, costs are expected to rise to 20% within 10 years, which means that BMW care for all would cost 25%-30% within 10 years. There are a lot of things that can be done to address these costs, but they will involve sacrifices by average people who now have good insurance. We will have to allow, as do other countries, government bureaucrats to decide services that will be offered as well as waiting lists for non-emergency procedures. This problem is a good one for discussion here. However, it will not be solved by polemics that provide simple stories with heroes and villains like that provided by Moore. There is a hard way out for this, just no easy way out. Dan M.
RE: Flatulence
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of jon louis mann
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 3:44 PM
To: Killer Bs Discussion
Subject: Flatulence
you are absolutely correct, ronn. one of the classic specious
arguments that bushco sycophants...
Sorry. That's where I stop reading.
-- Ronn! :)
really?-) you don't seem like the sort who doesn't consider all
viewpoints. i don't know anything about the regulars here, but i
assume most are admirers of the brin perspective which is open,
empirical, curious and pragmatic. it is difficult, sometimes, to tell
when someone is being ironic, sarcastic, sardonic, rhetorically
flatulent, or completely sincere?~{
-- jon
Well, some of us have been discussing various ideas here for quite some
time. I think I've been here 7 years, and I think I recall Ronn being
here before me. One pattern I've seen here, as well as elsewhere, is that
polemics almost always add more heat than light. There are exceptions to
all generalities (including this one), but the signal/noise ratio in
polemics tends to be very low.
Statements such as one of the classic specious arguments that bushco
sycophants have a very high tendency of being followed by polemics. It's a
statement that indicates a lack of openness to other idea.
Now, it's true that there are other possibilities. I tend to search for
these, and thus tend to read on. But, I certainly can understand someone
who cannot read and think about every message in every list will have such a
filter.
Dan M.
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
hot air polemics
Well, some of us have been discussing various ideas here for quite some time. I've been here 7 years, and I think I recall Ronn being here before me. One pattern I've seen here, as well as elsewhere, is that polemics almost always add more heat than light. There are exceptions to all generalities (including this one), but the signal/noise ratio in polemics tends to be very low. Statements such as one of the classic specious arguments that bushco sycophants have a very high tendency of being followed by polemics. It's a statement that indicates a lack of openness to other idea. Now, it's true that there are other possibilities. I tend to search for these, and thus tend to read on. But, I certainly can understand someone who cannot read and think about every message in every list will have such a filter. Dan M. thank you dan, i realize now that there may be people on brinlist who might be offended by generalities like bushco sycophants . not everyone of that persuasion is necessarily dogmatic and close minded to other perspectives. if there are conservatives on brinlist they are probably not the sort who are in denial about human causes of global warming, or what the patriot act really is about. i am sure that there are many genuine conservatives who reflect the values of the old eisenhower, or rockefeller, or even goldwater republicans. even nixon and reagan look good when compared to the bush neo-cons. it has been my experience that many right wing neo-conservatives only watch fox news, and are not interested in hearing another perspective. their counterparts will watch fox news just to know what the other side is saying. i am continually amazed at how murdoch's fair and balanced commentators will rant on about how edwards paid $400 for a hair cut and gets $50,000 for speaking appearances, but fail to mention giuliani getting $100,000 for speaking engagements. maybe giuliani doesn't require the services of a stylist because there is very little to style!~) there is so much that fox doesn't cover about the many excesses of the bush administration, except to atttack their critics, not that the other media outlets are much better for being on the defensive. the lurker who introduced me to the brinlist took a couple years before he finally decided the neo-cons were an aberration. when i observe what has happened in the world during the bush administration i can understand why carter said his foreign policy is the worst of any administration in the history of the world. it is hard for me not to be outraged when the constitution is being subverted. jon m. Knowledge is Power Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396545469 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
U.S. health care
Why do we behave the way we behave? What has become of us? Where is our soul? DUMPED ON SKID ROW - Hospitals drop homeless patients on the city's Skid Row. -- jlm --The first thing that comes to mind is that this is an expect-able, albeit immoral, response to the mess that hospitals find themselves in with regard to treatment of the indigent. ... what is needed is a system in which everyone can get a Chevy, but you have to pay your own money if you want a BMW. The system we have now is that... (sic) once a patient is in, they must be afforded the best care available... This is an overwhelming cost to the hospitals. (sic) i just had routine microsurgery for my lower lumbar region and the bill was well over $20,000. my in network portion is over $10,000. they kicked me out after one day with very little followup. i would have been better off spending the money on prevention and seeking alternative medicine. i suppose hospitals have to compensate for losses when they provide services for indigent patients like my alcoholic and homeless brother. the hospital wanted me to sign a release to take him off life support, but i couldn't do it. miraculously his liver recovered, probably due to the expensive intensive care he received. the last time he tried to go into rehab he was refused, so he robbed a bank for $100 and went to the police station to turn himself in. he spent thirty months in a federal detention center, which is the longest he has been sober in forty years... the insurance and pharmaceutical companies seem to be doing quite well, which is part of the reason my brother became addicted to prescription medicine when he worked for a think tank and had great coverage. --This problem is a good one for discussion here. However, it will not be solved by polemics that provide simple stories with heroes and villains like that provided by Moore. There is a hard way out for this, just no easy way out. Dan M. i think michael moore has done a real service with his controversial documentaries. he doesn't pretend not to have an agenda when he has louis armstrong singing it's a beautiful world with a collage of all the world's inhumanities as background, or bush sitting dazed like a deer in the headlights for seven minutes while america is under attack. the message is much more powerful than rants by dennis miller or bill o'reilly, who also have an agenda. i very much like the idea of a string of simple health clinics staffed by medics, med techs, nurse-practitioners, and physician assistants - with doctors on call, so they can be free for important emergencies. i do believe there are some good alternative medicine resources, and some out right snake medicine scams. there are plenty of quacks in the medical profession, as well and doctors who think they are god, or are in the profession for the money. even though i am a skeptic about chanting, gris gris and juju cures, i never negate the power of suggestion. --jlm Knowledge is Power No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: U.S. health care
You said: even though i am a skeptic about chanting, gris gris and juju cures, i never negate the power of suggestion. Those aren't supposed to work on the body, or at least not directly. They are supposed to work on the mind, emotions, cultural background etc, which will then help the body do its job, or at least not fight it. It's analogous to explaining the treatment in the language (to quote the old Episcopalian prayer book) Understanded of the people. Because to many traditional people, the ways of our health care system are not only alien, but in some cases, repugnant. Heavens - even to me, reared in the system, they are often repugnant. http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ 'Earth is just a starter planet.' Stephen Colbert From: jon louis mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: U.S. health care Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 10:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Why do we behave the way we behave? What has become of us? Where is our soul? DUMPED ON SKID ROW - Hospitals drop homeless patients on the city's Skid Row. -- jlm --The first thing that comes to mind is that this is an expect-able, albeit immoral, response to the mess that hospitals find themselves in with regard to treatment of the indigent. ... what is needed is a system in which everyone can get a Chevy, but you have to pay your own money if you want a BMW. The system we have now is that... (sic) once a patient is in, they must be afforded the best care available... This is an overwhelming cost to the hospitals. (sic) i just had routine microsurgery for my lower lumbar region and the bill was well over $20,000. my in network portion is over $10,000. they kicked me out after one day with very little followup. i would have been better off spending the money on prevention and seeking alternative medicine. i suppose hospitals have to compensate for losses when they provide services for indigent patients like my alcoholic and homeless brother. the hospital wanted me to sign a release to take him off life support, but i couldn't do it. miraculously his liver recovered, probably due to the expensive intensive care he received. the last time he tried to go into rehab he was refused, so he robbed a bank for $100 and went to the police station to turn himself in. he spent thirty months in a federal detention center, which is the longest he has been sober in forty years... the insurance and pharmaceutical companies seem to be doing quite well, which is part of the reason my brother became addicted to prescription medicine when he worked for a think tank and had great coverage. --This problem is a good one for discussion here. However, it will not be solved by polemics that provide simple stories with heroes and villains like that provided by Moore. There is a hard way out for this, just no easy way out. Dan M. i think michael moore has done a real service with his controversial documentaries. he doesn't pretend not to have an agenda when he has louis armstrong singing it's a beautiful world with a collage of all the world's inhumanities as background, or bush sitting dazed like a deer in the headlights for seven minutes while america is under attack. the message is much more powerful than rants by dennis miller or bill o'reilly, who also have an agenda. i very much like the idea of a string of simple health clinics staffed by medics, med techs, nurse-practitioners, and physician assistants - with doctors on call, so they can be free for important emergencies. i do believe there are some good alternative medicine resources, and some out right snake medicine scams. there are plenty of quacks in the medical profession, as well and doctors who think they are god, or are in the profession for the money. even though i am a skeptic about chanting, gris gris and juju cures, i never negate the power of suggestion. --jlm Knowledge is Power No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: hot air polemics
On Behalf Of jon louis mann the lurker who introduced me to the brinlist took a couple years before he finally decided the neo-cons were an aberration. The neo-cons you speak of might be an aberration but I think Brin-L is poorer for their absence. There is only so long you can be interested in preaching to the choir. I'm mostly a lurker myself. I rarely, if ever, have much to add to the discussion. But I learn a lot from what I do read. I miss the exchange of radically different ideas. I may not have agreed with much (or anything) that some of them said but I enjoyed listening to their arguments and getting insight on how their minds work. Back in the run-up to Gulf War II, I had my mind largely changed by the debates between Dan and others. - jmh CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
hot air polemics
the lurker who introduced me to the brinlist took a couple years before he finally decided the neo-cons were an aberration. - jlm The neo-cons you speak of might be an aberration but I think Brin-L is poorer for their absence. There is only so long you can be interested in preaching to the choir. I'm mostly a lurker myself. I rarely, if ever, have much to add to the discussion. But I learn a lot from what I do read. I miss the exchange of radically different ideas. I may not have agreed with much (or anything) that some of them said but I enjoyed listening to their arguments and getting insight on how their minds work. Back in the run-up to Gulf War II, I had my mind largely changed by the debates between Dan and others. - jmh i absolutely agree, john, there is little i enjoy more than a stirring debate on religion or politics. was there a reason why brin-l was down for a while? i was a lurker at first, on and off, after my lurker friend told me about the list. i have to say that he is responsible for me having changed my position on the mideast. i used to be pro-palestinian, but now i am more repulsed by the atrocities of hamas, fatah and hezbollah, than those of the zionists. i do not believe that the israeli forces deliberately target civilians, but the jihadists do use human shields and they do target civilians. israel is sincere about a two state solution, which is unacceptable to countries like iran and syria. i really enjoyed the emotional rhetoric between rosie and elizabeth on the view this morning. little elizabeth gave as good, and better, than she got. i loved her shaking her finger at rosie, who i don't much care for, even though she is a fellow bush hater. rosie goes too far when she insinuates that our military are terrorists. many of them are people who volunteered after 911 and were caught up in the hysteria. many of them, like cpl pat tillman, did not volunteer for iraq. those who support that invasion are sublect to military indocrination, although they are not as misguided and confused as the jihadists who have been subjected to even more intense propaganda, and may have lost family to the american occupation. - jlm Knowledge is Power Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
U.S. health care
You said: even though i am a skeptic about chanting, gris gris and juju cures, i never negate the power of suggestion. Those aren't supposed to work on the body, or at least not directly. They are supposed to work on the mind, emotions, cultural background etc, which will then help the body do its job, or at least not fight it. It's analogous to explaining the treatment in the language (to quote the old Episcopalian prayer book) Understanded of the people. Because to many traditional people, the ways of our health care system are not only alien, but in some cases, repugnant. Heavens - even to me, reared in the system, they are often repugnant. i understand that, pat. i had a brother-in-law who was raised on a reservation in saskatchewan, and was a medicine man. he tried his remedies on me, but i lacked faith. i have friends who rely on positive imaging which is the same thing. i think one of the reasons i have such excellent health is i have always felt indestructible, which has allowed me to take the kind of risks which probably resulted in my back problems. i think stress is also a factor because i don't shrink from conflict in my life. Why do we behave the way we behave? What has become of us? Where is our soul? DUMPED ON SKID ROW - Hospitals drop homeless patients on the city's Skid Row. -- jlm --The first thing that comes to mind is that this is an expect-able, albeit immoral, response to the mess that hospitals find themselves in with regard to treatment of the indigent. ... what is needed is a system in which everyone can get a Chevy, but you have to pay your own money if you want a BMW. The system we have now is that... (sic) once a patient is in, they must be afforded the best care available... This is an overwhelming cost to the hospitals. (sic) i just had routine microsurgery for my lower lumbar region and the bill was well over $20,000. my in network portion is over $10,000. they kicked me out after one day with very little followup. i would have been better off spending the money on prevention and seeking alternative medicine. i suppose hospitals have to compensate for losses when they provide services for indigent patients like my alcoholic and homeless brother. the hospital wanted me to sign a release to take him off life support, but i couldn't do it. miraculously his liver recovered, probably due to the expensive intensive care he received. the last time he tried to go into rehab he was refused, so he robbed a bank for $100 and went to the police station to turn himself in. he spent thirty months in a federal detention center, which is the longest he has been sober in forty years... the insurance and pharmaceutical companies seem to be doing quite well, which is part of the reason my brother became addicted to prescription medicine when he worked for a think tank and had great coverage. --This problem is a good one for discussion here. However, it will not be solved by polemics that provide simple stories with heroes and villains like that provided by Moore. There is a hard way out for this, just no easy way out. Dan M. i think michael moore has done a real service with his controversial documentaries. he doesn't pretend to not have an agenda with louis armstrong singing it's a beautiful world and a collage of all the world's inhumanities as background, or bush sitting dazed, like a deer in the headlights, for seven minutes while america is under attack. his message is much more powerful than rants by dennis miller, or bill o'reilly, who also have an agenda. i very like the idea of a string health clinics staffed by medics med techs, nurse-practitioners, and physician assistants - with doctors on call, so they can be free for important emergencies. i do believe there are good alternative medicine resources, and some out right snake oil scams. there are plenty of quacks in the medical profession, as well, and doctors who are in the profession for money, think they are god, . even though i am a skeptic about chanting, gris gris and juju cures, i never negate the power of suggestion. --jlm Knowledge is Power Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
cost of conservation
has anyone been following this scenario? http://worldwithoutoil.org/ Knowledge is Power Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: U.S. health care
On 23 May 2007 at 10:21, Dan Minette wrote: And, fixing this is not as easy as Moore might suggest. As it stands, over 16% of GDP is spent on health care.and this is with a significant fraction of Americans obtaining sub-standard care If everyone was given the BMW service, this would rise to 20% to 25% quickly. As it stands, costs are expected to rise to 20% within 10 years, which means that BMW care for all would cost 25%-30% within 10 years. Assuming, once more, no cost benefits. But there are. SImply put, the weakest area of the American health system is preventative care. Poorer people with chronic conditions can end up with repeated emergency hospital treatment for conditions which are manageable with drugs which, while not cheap, are far cheaper than repeated hospital admitance. And it improves their health as well. AndrewC Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: U.S. health care
Ah. We here in the Southwest tend to feel we're the only ones who know anything about Native Americans (blush). Apologies. http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ 'Earth is just a starter planet.' Stephen Colbert From: jon louis mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: U.S. health care Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 12:16:19 -0700 (PDT) You said: even though i am a skeptic about chanting, gris gris and juju cures, i never negate the power of suggestion. Those aren't supposed to work on the body, or at least not directly. They are supposed to work on the mind, emotions, cultural background etc, which will then help the body do its job, or at least not fight it. It's analogous to explaining the treatment in the language (to quote the old Episcopalian prayer book) Understanded of the people. Because to many traditional people, the ways of our health care system are not only alien, but in some cases, repugnant. Heavens - even to me, reared in the system, they are often repugnant. i understand that, pat. i had a brother-in-law who was raised on a reservation in saskatchewan, and was a medicine man. he tried his remedies on me, but i lacked faith. i have friends who rely on positive imaging which is the same thing. i think one of the reasons i have such excellent health is i have always felt indestructible, which has allowed me to take the kind of risks which probably resulted in my back problems. i think stress is also a factor because i don't shrink from conflict in my life. Why do we behave the way we behave? What has become of us? Where is our soul? DUMPED ON SKID ROW - Hospitals drop homeless patients on the city's Skid Row. -- jlm --The first thing that comes to mind is that this is an expect-able, albeit immoral, response to the mess that hospitals find themselves in with regard to treatment of the indigent. ... what is needed is a system in which everyone can get a Chevy, but you have to pay your own money if you want a BMW. The system we have now is that... (sic) once a patient is in, they must be afforded the best care available... This is an overwhelming cost to the hospitals. (sic) i just had routine microsurgery for my lower lumbar region and the bill was well over $20,000. my in network portion is over $10,000. they kicked me out after one day with very little followup. i would have been better off spending the money on prevention and seeking alternative medicine. i suppose hospitals have to compensate for losses when they provide services for indigent patients like my alcoholic and homeless brother. the hospital wanted me to sign a release to take him off life support, but i couldn't do it. miraculously his liver recovered, probably due to the expensive intensive care he received. the last time he tried to go into rehab he was refused, so he robbed a bank for $100 and went to the police station to turn himself in. he spent thirty months in a federal detention center, which is the longest he has been sober in forty years... the insurance and pharmaceutical companies seem to be doing quite well, which is part of the reason my brother became addicted to prescription medicine when he worked for a think tank and had great coverage. --This problem is a good one for discussion here. However, it will not be solved by polemics that provide simple stories with heroes and villains like that provided by Moore. There is a hard way out for this, just no easy way out. Dan M. i think michael moore has done a real service with his controversial documentaries. he doesn't pretend to not have an agenda with louis armstrong singing it's a beautiful world and a collage of all the world's inhumanities as background, or bush sitting dazed, like a deer in the headlights, for seven minutes while america is under attack. his message is much more powerful than rants by dennis miller, or bill o'reilly, who also have an agenda. i very like the idea of a string health clinics staffed by medics med techs, nurse-practitioners, and physician assistants - with doctors on call, so they can be free for important emergencies. i do believe there are good alternative medicine resources, and some out right snake oil scams. there are plenty of quacks in the medical profession, as well, and doctors who are in the profession for money, think they are god, . even though i am a skeptic about chanting, gris gris and juju cures, i never negate the power of suggestion. --jlm Knowledge is Power Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
U.S. health care
Ah. We here in the Southwest tend to feel we're the only ones who know anything about Native Americans (blush). Apologies. http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ none necessary, i also live in the southwest. my brother-in-law was a canadian native american. i am one of those rarities, a mexican canadian!~) now, i know what STFU means; please tell us, WTF is GBTW? jon m. This needs to be inscribed on my computer I finally found an acronymic slogan that is more to the point and more concise than Robert Heinlin's old favorite, TANSTAAFL, short for There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Meaning, if something looks like one, look for the hidden costs. Today. Pink Splice on the Fourth Turning Forums website added a very nice and all-too-true prescription for Crisis Era America: STFU GBTW. What that means, I leave as an exercise for the reader. Or will answer you offline at [EMAIL PROTECTED], since the F stands for precisely what you think it does. Knowledge is Power You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: U.S. health care
Get Back To Work. Pat, taking care of business all day and ready to veg out by the boob tube. http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ 'Earth is just a starter planet.' Stephen Colbert From: jon louis mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: U.S. health care Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Ah. We here in the Southwest tend to feel we're the only ones who know anything about Native Americans (blush). Apologies. http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ none necessary, i also live in the southwest. my brother-in-law was a canadian native american. i am one of those rarities, a mexican canadian!~) now, i know what STFU means; please tell us, WTF is GBTW? jon m. This needs to be inscribed on my computer I finally found an acronymic slogan that is more to the point and more concise than Robert Heinlin's old favorite, TANSTAAFL, short for There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Meaning, if something looks like one, look for the hidden costs. Today. Pink Splice on the Fourth Turning Forums website added a very nice and all-too-true prescription for Crisis Era America: STFU GBTW. What that means, I leave as an exercise for the reader. Or will answer you offline at [EMAIL PROTECTED], since the F stands for precisely what you think it does. Knowledge is Power You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: hot air polemics
- Original Message - From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:15 PM Subject: RE: hot air polemics On Behalf Of jon louis mann the lurker who introduced me to the brinlist took a couple years before he finally decided the neo-cons were an aberration. The neo-cons you speak of might be an aberration but I think Brin-L is poorer for their absence. There is only so long you can be interested in preaching to the choir. I'm mostly a lurker myself. I rarely, if ever, have much to add to the discussion. But I learn a lot from what I do read. I miss the exchange of radically different ideas. I may not have agreed with much (or anything) that some of them said but I enjoyed listening to their arguments and getting insight on how their minds work. Back in the run-up to Gulf War II, I had my mind largely changed by the debates between Dan and others. Just to open up the discussion a bit.. I wouldn't describe Dan or Ronn! as conservatives exactly. From here they are both more centrists on the conservative side of the mid-point than staunch partisans of the right. I say this because over the years I have seen both of them very reasonably criticize both extremes. I also say this because we don't have any non-lurking staunch conservatives (raise your hand if I overlooked you please, I'd be glad to be wrong here) on the list at this time. John is exactly correct and I too miss our conservatives. We had two very visible conservatives here for several years and their input was valued by me if by no others. (Though I suspect there are many who wish similarly) We are also missing some of the more liberal types and a couple of (dare I say) complete whack jobs who could make the list quite interesting at times. Memories! After all these years I still miss Marvin. What a guy! And has anyone heard news from Chad Cooper who had 3M-INIM as the license plate on his Cooper Mini? I've been meaning to ask about him for a good while. Or Joshua Bell? I hear the name all the time on NPR. The Fool? Bob Z. sure has been quiet for a long time now. I'm still waiting for my headless clone and for robots to take my job from me. When will random quantam effects begin to make me think? As for IAAMOAC, we all fall down, we get back up. Life goes on as usual. xponent IASAMOAC Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Re Cost of conservation
At 02:30 PM Sunday 5/20/2007, Deborah Harrell wrote: I used to know how much flatulence we humans produced, but I have long forgotten that! sigh Yet another thing to look up... http://www.geocities.com/Krishna_kunchith/humor/fart.html http://tafkac.org/medical/death_by_flatulence.html -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
hot air polemics
IAAMOAC? Does Brin-L have a FAQ, or profile section? --JLM Just to open up the discussion a bit.. I wouldn't describe Dan or Ronn! as conservatives exactly. From here they are both more centrists on the conservative side of the mid-point than staunch partisans of the right. I say this because over the years I have seen both of them very reasonably criticize both extremes. I also say this because we don't have any non-lurking staunch conservatives (raise your hand if I overlooked you please, I'd be glad to be wrong here) on the list at this time. John is exactly correct and I too miss our conservatives. We had two very visible conservatives here for several years and their input was valued by me if by no others. (Though I suspect there are many who wish similarly) We are also missing some of the more liberal types and a couple of (dare I say) complete whack jobs who could make the list quite interesting at times. Memories! After all these years I still miss Marvin. What a guy! And has anyone heard news from Chad Cooper who had 3M-INIM as the license plate on his Cooper Mini? I've been meaning to ask about him for a good while. Or Joshua Bell? I hear the name all the time on NPR. The Fool? Bob Z. sure has been quiet for a long time now. I'm still waiting for my headless clone and for robots to take my job from me. When will random quantum effects begin to make me think? As for IAAMOAC, we all fall down, we get back up. Life goes on as usual. xponent IASAMOAC Maru rob Knowledge is Power Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Condom Size Tester
A man goes to buy condoms at a local drug store. What size? asks the clerk. Gee, I don't know. Go see Sara in aisle 4. He goes over to see Sara, who grabs him in the crotch, and yells, Medium! The guy is mortified! He hurries over to pay and leaves quickly. Another guy comes in to buy condoms, and gets sent to Sara in aisle 4. Sara grabs him and yells, Large! The guy struts over to the register, pays, and leaves. A high school kid comes in to buy condoms. What size? The kid embarassedly says I've never done this before. I don't know what size. The clerk sends him over to Sara in aisle 4. She grabs him and yells Clean up in aisle 4! xponent Break In The Action Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
fans-go-nuts-over-jerichos-cancellation
http://tvmakesyoustupid.com/2007/05/23/fans-go-nuts-over-jerichos-cancellation/ Fans of the CBS post-apocalypse drama Jericho upset about the untimely cancellation of the series this year, which ended on a cliffhanger, are sending nuts to the network in order to get them to renege. Thousands and thousands of pounds of nuts! Says the ingenius fan campaign: Why nuts? In the final episode Jake Green (Skeet Ulrich) borrowed the historic phrase NUTS in response to a final offer of surrender from a hostile neighboring town. CBS decided to cancel the show, and fans are uprising to save Jericho by sending, you got it, NUTS to CBS executives. To participate, spread the word, read more about it, or just to see the awesome, awesome photo gallery of the massive shipments of nuts (mmm, cashews), go here( http://www.nutsonline.com/jericho ). Awesome! And in the comments: Thanx for supporting the cause!! CBS - YOU'VE BEEN THUNDERSTUCK!! xponent Sabot Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: fans-go-nuts-over-jerichos-cancellation
I have this feeling people are going nuts over nothing... BTW, when does the new season of Enterprise start? Damon. Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: Tamiya's Jagdpanther in 1/48 scale - Original Message - From: Robert G. Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: brin-L brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:46 PM Subject: fans-go-nuts-over-jerichos-cancellation http://tvmakesyoustupid.com/2007/05/23/fans-go-nuts-over-jerichos-cancellation/ Fans of the CBS post-apocalypse drama Jericho upset about the untimely cancellation of the series this year, which ended on a cliffhanger, are sending nuts to the network in order to get them to renege. Thousands and thousands of pounds of nuts! Says the ingenius fan campaign: Why nuts? In the final episode Jake Green (Skeet Ulrich) borrowed the historic phrase NUTS in response to a final offer of surrender from a hostile neighboring town. CBS decided to cancel the show, and fans are uprising to save Jericho by sending, you got it, NUTS to CBS executives. To participate, spread the word, read more about it, or just to see the awesome, awesome photo gallery of the massive shipments of nuts (mmm, cashews), go here( http://www.nutsonline.com/jericho ). Awesome! And in the comments: Thanx for supporting the cause!! CBS - YOU'VE BEEN THUNDERSTUCK!! xponent Sabot Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.6/813 - Release Date: 5/20/2007 7:54 AM ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
American Idol Finals
The chick won But it was Beatles night on AI with all sorts singing Beatles songs and I was once again struck by the profound impact the Beatles had on the world. Will we ever see their like again? xponent Fab Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: hot air polemics
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Seeberger Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:04 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: hot air polemics - Original Message - From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:15 PM Subject: RE: hot air polemics On Behalf Of jon louis mann the lurker who introduced me to the brinlist took a couple years before he finally decided the neo-cons were an aberration. The neo-cons you speak of might be an aberration but I think Brin-L is poorer for their absence. There is only so long you can be interested in preaching to the choir. I'm mostly a lurker myself. I rarely, if ever, have much to add to the discussion. But I learn a lot from what I do read. I miss the exchange of radically different ideas. I may not have agreed with much (or anything) that some of them said but I enjoyed listening to their arguments and getting insight on how their minds work. Back in the run-up to Gulf War II, I had my mind largely changed by the debates between Dan and others. As an aside, the discussions on Iraq between Gautam and myself continue to this day. He just doesn't feel as though this list is a good place for him discuss ideas (paraphrasing what he has written here). Although I don't concur, I see his point. Just to open up the discussion a bit.. I wouldn't describe Dan or Ronn! as conservatives exactly. From here they are both more centrists on the conservative side of the mid-point than staunch partisans of the right. ROTFLMA, Rob. When you first came here, I looked like a leftist arguing for gun control, remember? I think from Ronn's posts that he is a centralist slightly to the right of center, and I see myself as centralist to the left of center. Arguing here probably makes me look more conservative than I am because there are no persistent conservatives like JDG here. Gautam is best described as a centralist, slightly to the right of center by US standards. JDG is a true conservative. But, comparing to the US, I'm liberal on a number of issues. I do favor National insurance, but I think health care will have to be rationed here...as it is elsewhere. I am against the death penalty and abortion for the same reason (the latter is a conservative position I held as a McGovern delegate when I voted for gay rights at the Minn. Democratic convention in '72). On economics, I tend to like Brad Delong's ideas. Right now, I'm leaning towards voting Obama in the Texas primarymaybe Bill Richardson for his experience. Now, by a UK test, I come out very slightly to the right of center in the UK...but the UK mean is to the left of the US mean. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: U.S. health care
SImply put, the weakest area of the American health system is preventative care. Poorer people with chronic conditions can end up with repeated emergency hospital treatment for conditions which are manageable with drugs which, while not cheap, are far cheaper than repeated hospital admitance. OK, let's try to do an experimental test on this. Drug coverage was just added to Medicare. To the extent that your hypothesis is true, we would see a drop in hospital costs that correspond to the increase in prescription payments. I looked it up, and there is a small effect on the rise in hospital costs, but it's only a fraction of the increase in cost. This doesn't prove that the same thing will happen if we do this for other age groups, but it is data. I realize that I don't tend to calculate synergy benefits. I've seen scores of these calculations from various sources, and they are usually pipe dreams. The subset that is not tends to be characterized by tangible quantitative arguments...not general ones. Having said that, I'll agree that there will be some benefit, so maybe it's just 25% of GDP in 10 years if we do nothing but add universal health care. Since I have said I support universal health care, the obvious conclusions from the above statement is that we need a radical retooling. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: hot air polemics
- Original Message - From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Killer Bs Discussion' brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:21 PM Subject: RE: hot air polemics -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Seeberger Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:04 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: hot air polemics - Original Message - From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:15 PM Subject: RE: hot air polemics On Behalf Of jon louis mann the lurker who introduced me to the brinlist took a couple years before he finally decided the neo-cons were an aberration. The neo-cons you speak of might be an aberration but I think Brin-L is poorer for their absence. There is only so long you can be interested in preaching to the choir. I'm mostly a lurker myself. I rarely, if ever, have much to add to the discussion. But I learn a lot from what I do read. I miss the exchange of radically different ideas. I may not have agreed with much (or anything) that some of them said but I enjoyed listening to their arguments and getting insight on how their minds work. Back in the run-up to Gulf War II, I had my mind largely changed by the debates between Dan and others. As an aside, the discussions on Iraq between Gautam and myself continue to this day. He just doesn't feel as though this list is a good place for him discuss ideas (paraphrasing what he has written here). Although I don't concur, I see his point. Just to open up the discussion a bit.. I wouldn't describe Dan or Ronn! as conservatives exactly. From here they are both more centrists on the conservative side of the mid-point than staunch partisans of the right. ROTFLMA, Rob. When you first came here, I looked like a leftist arguing for gun control, remember? G No, I haven't forgotten! But judging by things you have written it seems to me you were moving rightward a bit starting around 2000 or so. I see quite a few people I would regard as being further left than I am here, but WRT political issues I would place you a bit to the right of me. (In an overall sense) I think from Ronn's posts that he is a centralist slightly to the right of center, and I see myself as centralist to the left of center. Arguing here probably makes me look more conservative than I am because there are no persistent conservatives like JDG here. Gautam is best described as a centralist, slightly to the right of center by US standards. JDG is a true conservative. Everytime I do one of those political quizzes with the 2 axis payoff graph, I come out a bit right of center and a bit to the libertarian side of the libertarian/authoritarian axis. I suppose it depends on where one draws a line (sets the parameters and definitions), but I would still consider Gautam just outside the centrist circle. Not for any personal distaste for his politics (Gautam is quite a reasonable guy), but because of his solid (most of the time) support of conservative stances and his general disagreement (almost always as I recall) with liberal stances. Of course I know you talk to him a good bit offlist and all I have to go by is his onlist discussions to go by. (Is he still doing his blog?). But, comparing to the US, I'm liberal on a number of issues. I do favor National insurance, but I think health care will have to be rationed here...as it is elsewhere. I am against the death penalty and abortion for the same reason (the latter is a conservative position I held as a McGovern delegate when I voted for gay rights at the Minn. Democratic convention in '72). On economics, I tend to like Brad Delong's ideas. Right now, I'm leaning towards voting Obama in the Texas primarymaybe Bill Richardson for his experience. Brad is decidedly more liberal than I am, but economically he seems pretty much a centrist for the most part. In the first election where I was of age to vote, I voted for John Anderson. I *am* going to vote for Obama unless he goes flakey on us. I'm an AFL-CIO labor guy and support Gay rights. I'm against the death penalty, but against a total abortion ban. ( I prefer some limits) I agree we need national health insurance, but think cost controls is the way to go. Now, by a UK test, I come out very slightly to the right of center in the UK...but the UK mean is to the left of the US mean. I come out only slightly more to the right on the UK test than I do on the US centered tests. xponent Elephants All The Way Down Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
fans-go-nuts-over-jerichos-cancellation
i would not be surprised if this was a ploy to create buzz for a movie!~) jlm http://tvmakesyoustupid.com/2007/05/23/fans-go-nuts-over-jerichos-cancellation/ Fans of the CBS post-apocalypse drama Jericho upset about the untimely cancellation of the series this year, which ended on a cliffhanger, are sending nuts to the network in order to get them to renege. Thousands and thousands of pounds of nuts! Says the ingenius fan campaign: Why nuts? In the final episode Jake Green (Skeet Ulrich) borrowed the historic phrase NUTS in response to a final offer of surrender from a hostile neighboring town. CBS decided to cancel the show, and fans are uprising to save Jericho by sending, you got it, NUTS to CBS executives. To participate, spread the word, read more about it, or just to see the awesome, awesome photo gallery of the massive shipments of nuts (mmm, cashews), go here( http://www.nutsonline.com/jericho ). Awesome! And in the comments: Thanx for supporting the cause!! CBS - YOU'VE BEEN THUNDERSTUCK!! xponent Sabot Maru rob Knowledge is Power Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mailp=summer+activities+for+kidscs=bz ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
