[ccp4bb] Protein-Ligand Crystallization

2015-02-05 Thread Monica Mittal
Hi all,
I am working to crystallize a protein-ligand complex. I did a preliminary
melting curve analysis for the protein in the absence and presence of 2
ligands (dissolved in protein buffer). I kept the other controls as buffer
an a known standard to confirm instrument performance. All expts done in
triplicates.
Now the results are like : Tm of protein alone is 56 deg, Tm in the
presence of Lig1 conc. of 0.05mM, 0.1mM, 1.0mM and 10.0mM is 56.2, 56.1,
56.0 and 53.5 respectively !! Tm in the presence of Lig 2 conc. of 0.05mM,
0.1mM, 1.0mM, 4.0mM and 10.0mM is 56.2, 56.1, 54.9, 52.3 and 50.6
respectively !!
Although the effective delta Tm for both is different at higher
concentration, but both are kind of making protein less stable. So i was
wondering, will it be difficult to co-crystallize them !! Any suggestions
in this regard are highly appreciated !!

Thanks
Monica


Re: [ccp4bb] Bulk solvent correction in Phaser MR LF

2015-02-05 Thread Alexandre OURJOUMTSEV
Hi, Bernhard,

ok, sure, you are right ! Nevertheless, I would not be so desperate and 
categorical: you are right , at my knowledge also, there is currently NO known 
algorithm to take into account the flat mask bulk solvent contribution at the 
rotation step (maybe I am wrong?), however this does not mean it is impossible. 
The question is should it be done at all ?
 When do you the rotation search, you need to use mostly the highest 
resolution data, and it may be rather useful to remove the low-resolution data 
(see the tests described in Acta Cryst D51, 888-895, 1995; however, it looks 
like in practice nobody uses variable resolution for different MR steps). When 
you work at low resolution with envelopes, you do not care about bulk solvent 
correction since all this results indeed in a scale coefficient.
 There is a tiny (but not unusual) situation when one wants to do MR at the 
worse resolution of 9-12 A (worse in the sense that the maps show neither 
(already) molecular envelope nor (yet) clear structure. Suppose we could solve 
the MR problem - what we do then since the maps are so poor ? It is worthy in 
this case artificially lower the resolution ? I do not know...

However, I agree, you question is fully valid and is interesting.


All the best ,

Sacha

De : hofkristall...@gmail.commailto:hofkristall...@gmail.com 
[hofkristall...@gmail.com]
Envoyé : mercredi 4 février 2015 14:09
À : Alexandre OURJOUMTSEV; CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UKmailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Objet : RE: [ccp4bb] Bulk solvent correction in Phaser MR LF
Hi Sacha,

I was imprecise. With unplaced I meant 'neither rotated nor translated'.
Once you become post-rotationally SF based, you can in fact compute a F(env)
whole inclusion should improve the TF score.

What is not evident to me is how to use a mask and compute the Fs  if the 
orientation
(rotation) is yet to be determined?

Thx, BR




Re: [ccp4bb] Resolve Domain Sequence Ambiguities

2015-02-05 Thread Dom Bellini
Dear Jacob,

Are you sure your MR solution is correct? What is your resolution?

Best,

D

-Original Message-
From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Keller, 
Jacob
Sent: 05 February 2015 15:21
To: ccp4bb
Subject: [ccp4bb] Resolve Domain Sequence Ambiguities

Hi All,

I have 14 identical domains placed in my ASU with reasonable MR scores, but the 
problem is that there should really be 7+7 or 8+8 of domains A and B (which are 
structurally similar). Can anyone think of a great and easy way of resolving 
the ambiguity?

I was thinking potentially:

-change one domain to polyAla
-SA omit map of that one
-rebuild/refine
-iterate through all domains, noting scores

Seems it might be pretty low reliability and a fair amount of work though. 
Otherwise, could try to go back to a small SAD signal, use partial model phases 
to find HAs, then phase without the model, rebuild from there. Any thoughts or 
similar experiences?

JPK


***
Jacob Pearson Keller, PhD
Looger Lab/HHMI Janelia Research Campus
19700 Helix Dr, Ashburn, VA 20147
email: kell...@janelia.hhmi.org
***

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Re: [ccp4bb] Resolve Domain Sequence Ambiguities

2015-02-05 Thread Keller, Jacob
Sorry--should have included a bit more info:

A huge caveat: data is tetartohedrally twinned, which makes everything an 
issue. But, I have managed to get Rfree down to ~32% in refmac with 
intensity-based twin refinement. I know--R's with de-twinning are illusory, but 
I still think it's solved, since I also can see anomalous signal in 
partial-model LLG maps from phaser at places predicted by the structure (and I 
don't think that anomalous info could be encoded in the MR phases (can it?)). 
So, that was a nice confirmatory moment...

Resolution is good, but cut off by detector limit on home system (set at max 
resolution w/o 2theta)

  N  1/d^2Dmid CCanomNanom   RCRanom   CC1/2   NCC1/2   Rsplit 
CCfit CCanomfit   $$ $$
  1  0.0061  12.82 -0.018  938 0.982   0.998  9890.028 
1.000 0.001
  2  0.0182   7.40  0.026 1831 1.026   0.998 18800.027 
1.000 0.006
  3  0.0304   5.73  0.062 2334 1.064   0.995 23850.032 
1.000 0.010
  4  0.0426   4.85  0.048 2806 1.049   0.995 28810.033 
1.000 0.014
  5  0.0547   4.27  0.036 3164 1.036   0.995 32430.034 
1.000 0.019
  6  0.0669   3.87  0.025 3524 1.026   0.994 36060.035 
1.000 0.023
  7  0.0791   3.56  0.011 3758 1.011   0.993 38730.038 
1.000 0.027
  8  0.0912   3.31  0.021 4111 1.021   0.993 42060.041 
0.999 0.032
  9  0.1034   3.11 -0.003 4340 0.997   0.991 44410.044 
0.999 0.036
 10  0.1155   2.94 -0.040 4602 0.961   0.989 47240.049 
0.999 0.040
 11  0.1277   2.80  0.050 4864 1.051   0.991 49680.048 
0.999 0.045
 12  0.1399   2.67  0.051 4996 1.052   0.988 51210.052 
0.998 0.049
 13  0.1520   2.56  0.073 5348 1.076   0.988 54690.053 
0.997 0.053
 14  0.1642   2.47 -0.009 5486 0.991   0.987 56110.057 
0.996 0.058
 15  0.1764   2.38  0.032 5698 1.032   0.985 58270.061 
0.995 0.062
 16  0.1885   2.30  0.091 5945 1.095   0.985 60670.063 
0.993 0.066
 17  0.2007   2.23  0.038 6002 1.039   0.985 61180.064 
0.991 0.070
 18  0.2128   2.17  0.086 6331 1.089   0.983 64450.068 
0.987 0.075
 19  0.2250   2.11  0.075 6411 1.078   0.983 65560.070 
0.983 0.079
 20  0.2372   2.05  0.097 6608 1.102   0.983 67560.070 
0.977 0.083
 21  0.2493   2.00  0.141 6712 1.152   0.981 68800.078 
0.968 0.088
 22  0.2615   1.96  0.104 6556 1.110   0.974 71260.093 
0.957 0.092
 23  0.2737   1.91  0.141 5595 1.152   0.953 70540.121 
0.943 0.096
 24  0.2858   1.87  0.149 4659 1.160   0.936 66520.151 
0.923 0.101
 25  0.2980   1.83  0.125 3630 1.133   0.909 59360.184 
0.898 0.105
 26  0.3101   1.80  0.138 2640 1.148   0.874 51180.219 
0.866 0.109
 27  0.3223   1.76  0.111 1793 1.116   0.851 40350.250 
0.825 0.114
 28  0.3345   1.73  0.040 1040 1.041   0.782 28570.305 
0.776 0.118
 29  0.3466   1.70  0.094  300 1.097   0.713 14740.371 
0.717 0.122
 30  0.3588   1.67   -   2  -  0.589  2280.497 
0.649 0.127
$$
Overall:0.027   122024 1.027   0.997   1385260.048
   CCanomNanom   RCRanom   CC1/2   NCC1/2   Rsplit 
CCfit CCanomfit



MR solution:

SOLU SET  RFZ=3.9 TFZ=7.1 PAK=0 LLG=38 RFZ=3.7 TFZ=8.9 PAK=0 LLG=75 RFZ=4.2
TFZ=8.2 PAK=0 LLG=40 LLG=160 RFZ=3.2 TFZ=11.2 PAK=0 LLG=249 LLG=262 RFZ=4.2
TFZ=9.4 PAK=0 LLG=331 LLG=339 RFZ=4.1 TFZ=11.3 PAK=0 LLG=405 LLG=418 RFZ=3.9
TFZ=11.6 PAK=0 LLG=487 LLG=494 RFZ=4.2 TFZ=8.9 PAK=0 LLG=539 LLG=554 RFZ=3.3
TFZ=8.6 PAK=0 LLG=612 LLG=638 RFZ=3.1 TFZ=8.7 PAK=0 LLG=679 LLG=691 RFZ=2.6
TFZ=12.4 PAK=0 LLG=910 LLG=926 RFZ=3.0 TFZ=9.2 PAK=0 LLG=987 LLG=1001 
RFZ=2.7
TFZ=9.8 PAK=3 LLG=1018 LLG=1043 RFZ=2.9 TFZ=9.1 PAK=5 LLG=1039














-Original Message-
From: dom.bell...@diamond.ac.uk [mailto:dom.bell...@diamond.ac.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 10:28 AM
To: Keller, Jacob; ccp4bb@jiscmail.ac.uk
Subject: RE: Resolve Domain Sequence Ambiguities

Dear Jacob,

Are you sure your MR solution is correct? What is your resolution?

Best,

D

-Original Message-
From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Keller, 
Jacob
Sent: 05 February 2015 15:21
To: ccp4bb
Subject: [ccp4bb] Resolve Domain Sequence Ambiguities

Hi All,

I have 14 identical domains placed in my ASU with reasonable MR scores, but the 
problem is that there should really be 7+7 or 8+8 of domains A and B (which are 
structurally similar). Can anyone think of a great 

Re: [ccp4bb] Resolve Domain Sequence Ambiguities

2015-02-05 Thread Dom Bellini
Did you try ShelxE autotrace? At that resolution it should work nicely, or at 
least be able to distinguish between the two sequences.

D

-Original Message-
From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Keller, 
Jacob
Sent: 05 February 2015 15:49
To: ccp4bb
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Resolve Domain Sequence Ambiguities

Sorry--should have included a bit more info:

A huge caveat: data is tetartohedrally twinned, which makes everything an 
issue. But, I have managed to get Rfree down to ~32% in refmac with 
intensity-based twin refinement. I know--R's with de-twinning are illusory, but 
I still think it's solved, since I also can see anomalous signal in 
partial-model LLG maps from phaser at places predicted by the structure (and I 
don't think that anomalous info could be encoded in the MR phases (can it?)). 
So, that was a nice confirmatory moment...

Resolution is good, but cut off by detector limit on home system (set at max 
resolution w/o 2theta)

  N  1/d^2Dmid CCanomNanom   RCRanom   CC1/2   NCC1/2   Rsplit 
CCfit CCanomfit   $$ $$
  1  0.0061  12.82 -0.018  938 0.982   0.998  9890.028 
1.000 0.001
  2  0.0182   7.40  0.026 1831 1.026   0.998 18800.027 
1.000 0.006
  3  0.0304   5.73  0.062 2334 1.064   0.995 23850.032 
1.000 0.010
  4  0.0426   4.85  0.048 2806 1.049   0.995 28810.033 
1.000 0.014
  5  0.0547   4.27  0.036 3164 1.036   0.995 32430.034 
1.000 0.019
  6  0.0669   3.87  0.025 3524 1.026   0.994 36060.035 
1.000 0.023
  7  0.0791   3.56  0.011 3758 1.011   0.993 38730.038 
1.000 0.027
  8  0.0912   3.31  0.021 4111 1.021   0.993 42060.041 
0.999 0.032
  9  0.1034   3.11 -0.003 4340 0.997   0.991 44410.044 
0.999 0.036
 10  0.1155   2.94 -0.040 4602 0.961   0.989 47240.049 
0.999 0.040
 11  0.1277   2.80  0.050 4864 1.051   0.991 49680.048 
0.999 0.045
 12  0.1399   2.67  0.051 4996 1.052   0.988 51210.052 
0.998 0.049
 13  0.1520   2.56  0.073 5348 1.076   0.988 54690.053 
0.997 0.053
 14  0.1642   2.47 -0.009 5486 0.991   0.987 56110.057 
0.996 0.058
 15  0.1764   2.38  0.032 5698 1.032   0.985 58270.061 
0.995 0.062
 16  0.1885   2.30  0.091 5945 1.095   0.985 60670.063 
0.993 0.066
 17  0.2007   2.23  0.038 6002 1.039   0.985 61180.064 
0.991 0.070
 18  0.2128   2.17  0.086 6331 1.089   0.983 64450.068 
0.987 0.075
 19  0.2250   2.11  0.075 6411 1.078   0.983 65560.070 
0.983 0.079
 20  0.2372   2.05  0.097 6608 1.102   0.983 67560.070 
0.977 0.083
 21  0.2493   2.00  0.141 6712 1.152   0.981 68800.078 
0.968 0.088
 22  0.2615   1.96  0.104 6556 1.110   0.974 71260.093 
0.957 0.092
 23  0.2737   1.91  0.141 5595 1.152   0.953 70540.121 
0.943 0.096
 24  0.2858   1.87  0.149 4659 1.160   0.936 66520.151 
0.923 0.101
 25  0.2980   1.83  0.125 3630 1.133   0.909 59360.184 
0.898 0.105
 26  0.3101   1.80  0.138 2640 1.148   0.874 51180.219 
0.866 0.109
 27  0.3223   1.76  0.111 1793 1.116   0.851 40350.250 
0.825 0.114
 28  0.3345   1.73  0.040 1040 1.041   0.782 28570.305 
0.776 0.118
 29  0.3466   1.70  0.094  300 1.097   0.713 14740.371 
0.717 0.122
 30  0.3588   1.67   -   2  -  0.589  2280.497 
0.649 0.127
$$
Overall:0.027   122024 1.027   0.997   1385260.048
   CCanomNanom   RCRanom   CC1/2   NCC1/2   Rsplit 
CCfit CCanomfit



MR solution:

SOLU SET  RFZ=3.9 TFZ=7.1 PAK=0 LLG=38 RFZ=3.7 TFZ=8.9 PAK=0 LLG=75 RFZ=4.2
TFZ=8.2 PAK=0 LLG=40 LLG=160 RFZ=3.2 TFZ=11.2 PAK=0 LLG=249 LLG=262 RFZ=4.2
TFZ=9.4 PAK=0 LLG=331 LLG=339 RFZ=4.1 TFZ=11.3 PAK=0 LLG=405 LLG=418 RFZ=3.9
TFZ=11.6 PAK=0 LLG=487 LLG=494 RFZ=4.2 TFZ=8.9 PAK=0 LLG=539 LLG=554 RFZ=3.3
TFZ=8.6 PAK=0 LLG=612 LLG=638 RFZ=3.1 TFZ=8.7 PAK=0 LLG=679 LLG=691 RFZ=2.6
TFZ=12.4 PAK=0 LLG=910 LLG=926 RFZ=3.0 TFZ=9.2 PAK=0 LLG=987 LLG=1001 
RFZ=2.7
TFZ=9.8 PAK=3 LLG=1018 LLG=1043 RFZ=2.9 TFZ=9.1 PAK=5 LLG=1039














-Original Message-
From: dom.bell...@diamond.ac.uk [mailto:dom.bell...@diamond.ac.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 10:28 AM
To: Keller, Jacob; ccp4bb@jiscmail.ac.uk
Subject: RE: Resolve Domain Sequence Ambiguities

Dear Jacob,

Are you sure your MR solution is correct? What is your resolution?

Best,

D

-Original Message-
From: CCP4 bulletin board 

Re: [ccp4bb] Resolve Domain Sequence Ambiguities

2015-02-05 Thread Gabor Bunkoczi

Hi Jacob,

I would superpose domain B onto each domain A in turn, and run 
refinement in Phaser. If the LLG goes up, exchange that domain A for a 
domain B, otherwise keep. This requires 14 refinement calculations.


This procedure may not give you what you are hoping for if your models 
are distant, since in this case domain A may be a better model for both 
domains. However, you could still improve your solution this way, and is 
therefore probably worth it.


BW, Gabor

On 2015-02-05 15:20, Keller, Jacob wrote:

Hi All,

I have 14 identical domains placed in my ASU with reasonable MR
scores, but the problem is that there should really be 7+7 or 8+8 of
domains A and B (which are structurally similar). Can anyone think of
a great and easy way of resolving the ambiguity?

I was thinking potentially:

-change one domain to polyAla
-SA omit map of that one
-rebuild/refine
-iterate through all domains, noting scores

Seems it might be pretty low reliability and a fair amount of work
though. Otherwise, could try to go back to a small SAD signal, use
partial model phases to find HAs, then phase without the model,
rebuild from there. Any thoughts or similar experiences?

JPK


***
Jacob Pearson Keller, PhD
Looger Lab/HHMI Janelia Research Campus
19700 Helix Dr, Ashburn, VA 20147
email: kell...@janelia.hhmi.org
***


--
##

 Dr Gabor Bunkoczi

 Cambridge Institute for Medical Research
 Wellcome Trust/MRC Building
 Addenbrooke's Hospital
 Hills Road
 Cambridge CB2 0XY
##


Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays

2015-02-05 Thread Keller, Jacob
What about the bogey of Fourier truncation ripples--I have heard many have been 
fooled by the into thinking they were seeing orbitals. How does one tell the 
difference?

JPK

-Original Message-
From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Phil 
Jeffrey
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 3:52 PM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays

Mark,

In the small-molecule crystal structures I work with it's relatively common to 
see localized difference electron density along covalent bonds or in the places 
you'd expect to see lone pairs during refinement after you've fit and modeled 
the atoms reasonably well and the phases are pretty good.  It's usually not as 
strong as difference density for hydrogens, before you put them in, but it's 
often pretty clearly visible once you have.

(I use SHELXLE as an interface for small molecule refinements because of a 
somewhat Coot-like experience in viewing maps).

Phil Jeffrey
Princeton


 What you CAN do in fact is appropriately subtract spherical electron 
 density from the experimental density and see what is left (i.e.
 directional ED that is 'surplus'). I tried to quickly find a paper on 
 that, they exist, and they show that experimental density does confirm 
 what we learn in chemistry class, orbitals are not imaginary.

 Mark


Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays

2015-02-05 Thread Pavel Afonine
 What about the bogey of Fourier truncation ripples--I have heard many have
 been fooled by the into thinking they were seeing orbitals. How does one
 tell the difference?


Indeed, there are such dangers. Hints are here:

On the possibility of observation of valence electron density for
individual bonds in proteins in conventional difference maps. (2004). Acta
Cryst., D60, 260-274.

Have a look at Figure 4. Then compare with Figure 1 here: J. Biol. Chem.
(1999) 274, 20753-29755.

Bottom line is: be careful with unbalanced Fourier syntheses, balanced ones
may be a safer option.

Pavel


Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays

2015-02-05 Thread Phil Jeffrey

Mark,

In the small-molecule crystal structures I work with it's relatively 
common to see localized difference electron density along covalent bonds 
or in the places you'd expect to see lone pairs during refinement after 
you've fit and modeled the atoms reasonably well and the phases are 
pretty good.  It's usually not as strong as difference density for 
hydrogens, before you put them in, but it's often pretty clearly visible 
once you have.


(I use SHELXLE as an interface for small molecule refinements because of 
a somewhat Coot-like experience in viewing maps).


Phil Jeffrey
Princeton



What you CAN do in fact is appropriately subtract spherical electron
density from the experimental density and see what is left (i.e.
directional ED that is 'surplus'). I tried to quickly find a paper on
that, they exist, and they show that experimental density does confirm
what we learn in chemistry class, orbitals are not imaginary.

Mark


Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays

2015-02-05 Thread Bernhard Rupp
This may be useful reading on charge density crystallography:

http://journals.iucr.org/a/issues/1998/05/00/by0157/by0157.pdf

I like the phrase ‘gourmet crystallographers’

Best, BR

 

From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Mark van 
der Woerd
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 9:28 PM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays

 

Not very well. When you look in the originally quoted article, there is really 
not much difference in the ED for H+ and H- (which are conveniently both shown 
in Fig 2). You build a model that is consistent with 'book knowledge' (i.e. 
normal hydrogen has only one bond) and take it from there. 

You have a point that the resolution isn't very good at 0.89A (sorry!)  but I 
suspect that the number of recorded reflections is much more important than the 
nebulous number of 0.89A (i.e. you can start to see these little details 
because you finally have an over-determined system parameters). 

What you CAN do in fact is appropriately subtract spherical electron density 
from the experimental density and see what is left (i.e. directional ED that is 
'surplus'). I tried to quickly find a paper on that, they exist, and they show 
that experimental density does confirm what we learn in chemistry class, 
orbitals are not imaginary. 

Mark

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Doug Ohlendorf oh...@umn.edu
To: CCP4BB CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Sent: Mon, Feb 2, 2015 11:29 am
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays

But, how with x-rays can one experimentally tell the difference between a 
hydrogen and a filled orbital (say of N)? I will grant that the electron 
density for a bound H should extend farther from the heavy atom but I believe 
you would need resolution better than 0.89 Ang to see this difference.
 
Doug
 
Douglas H. Ohlendorf   Phone:  612-624-8436
Professor  FAX:612-624-5121
Dept. of Biochemistry, Molecular Biology  Biophysics
Twin Cities Campus, University of Minnesota
Lab web site:
http://biosci.cbs.umn.edu/bmbb/ohlen_lab/index.html 
http://biosci.cbs.umn.edu/bmbb/ohlen_lab/index.html
 
 
-Original Message-
From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK 
mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK? ] On Behalf Of Colin Nave
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 9:04 AM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays
 
“As you say the proton itself is invisible to X-rays.”
Not quite! The ratio of scattering between electrons and protons should go as 
the inverse square of the masses.
Ratio of mass 1:1860, ratio of scattering 1:3459600. A small correction but 
doubtless it has been incorporated in to SHELX.
Colin
 
 
From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK 
mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK? ] On Behalf Of Ian Tickle
Sent: 02 February 2015 13:35
To: ccp4bb
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays
 
 
Peter, if it's a covalently-bonded H atom it surely can't be a bare proton, it 
must have at least some partial electron around it for the (possibly partial) 
covalent bond, enough to diffract X-rays anyway.  As you say the proton itself 
is invisible to X-rays.
Cheers
-- Ian
 
On 2 February 2015 at 13:08, Peter Moody 
pcem1bigfi...@gmail.commailto:pcem1bigfi...@gmail.com 
mailto:pcem1bigfi...@gmail.com?  wrote:
Dear BB
 
I have (again) realised how limited by understanding of our subject is.
 
In Nature’s online site 
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature14110.html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20150129
 there is a paper describing an X-ray structure determined with sub-atomic data 
(nice!).  The figures show density for H+ as well as H-. In my simple way I had 
assumed that any X-ray scattering from the nucleus was negligible, and that the 
electrons are responsible for this. I would expect a proton (i.e. H+) alone to 
be invisible to X-rays, and certainly not to look similar to a hydride (with 
two electrons in (electron density) maps. What have I missed?  Could someone 
please explain, or point me to a suitable reference?
 
Best wishes, Peter
(please use peter.mo...@le.ac.ukmailto:peter.mo...@le.ac.uk 
mailto:peter.mo...@le.ac.uk?  to reply directly)
 
http://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/biochemistry/staff/moody
 
 
 
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[ccp4bb] absolute-scale and noise maps

2015-02-05 Thread Isabel Garcia-Saez
Dear all,
I do apologize for the slightly off-topic subject but, how could you 
calculate ccp4 absolute-scale and noise maps in ccp4?. Basically I need e/A3 
and noise maps to discard that some maps contoured at certain sigmas are not 
just noise. I do know END/RAPID, but I have some problems trying to run RAPID 
(I am hoping that they would be included sometime in Phenix).
Thanks a lot,
Isabel



Isabel Garcia-Saez  PhD
Institut de Biologie Structurale
Viral Infection and Cancer Group (VIC)-Cell Division Team
71, Avenue des Martyrs
CS 10090
38044 Grenoble Cedex 9
France
Tel.: 00 33 (0) 457 42 86 15
e-mail: isabel.gar...@ibs.fr
FAX: 00 33 (0) 476 50 18 90
http://www.ibs.fr










[ccp4bb] Resolve Domain Sequence Ambiguities

2015-02-05 Thread Keller, Jacob
Hi All,

I have 14 identical domains placed in my ASU with reasonable MR scores, but the 
problem is that there should really be 7+7 or 8+8 of domains A and B (which are 
structurally similar). Can anyone think of a great and easy way of resolving 
the ambiguity?

I was thinking potentially:

-change one domain to polyAla
-SA omit map of that one
-rebuild/refine
-iterate through all domains, noting scores

Seems it might be pretty low reliability and a fair amount of work though. 
Otherwise, could try to go back to a small SAD signal, use partial model phases 
to find HAs, then phase without the model, rebuild from there. Any thoughts or 
similar experiences?

JPK


***
Jacob Pearson Keller, PhD
Looger Lab/HHMI Janelia Research Campus
19700 Helix Dr, Ashburn, VA 20147
email: kell...@janelia.hhmi.org
***


[ccp4bb] 2nd Announcement and etc - the 5th Winter School on Soft X-rays in MX

2015-02-05 Thread Bi-Cheng Wang
Posted on behalf of the Organizing Committee:	John Rose and Bi-Cheng Wang (University of Georgia, Athens, Georgia, U.S.A.)	Manfred Weiss (Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin für Materialien und Energie, Berlin, Germany)	Christoph Mueller-Dieckmann (ESRF, Grenoble, France)2nd AnnouncementandNewAdditions to theProgramThe 5thWinter School on Soft X-Rays in Macromolecular Crystallography	Location:		Georgia Center,TheUniversity of Georgia, Athens, Georgia, USA 30602	Dates:		March 1 - 4, 2015	Registration:	Online at: http://wssxmc.bmb.uga.edu.We announced theWinterSchool on the CCP4 bulletin board on December 19, 2014. Since then,we have addeda new Session on Detector Considerations on Monday evening, March 2 (pleasesee the attached Program Outline) and updated thecourseinformation on thethreehands-on workshopson Wednesday, March 4.The aim of the School is to bring together experts and young scientists interested in using the anomalous signal from light atoms (e.g. S, P, Ca, K, Mg) for macromolecular structure determination employing soft(lambda 1.5Å) X-ray techniques.The previous four Schools were held in Europe:1st Winter School: Bressanone/Brixen, Italy; Feb. 25-27, 20032ndWinter School: Seefeld, Austria; March 22-25, 20063rdWinter School: Berlin, Germany; February 18-20, 20094thWinter School: Grenoble, France, February 6-8, 2012There will also be hands-on workshops on Wednesday March 4.Optimizing Native-SAD Data Collection - (John Rose  Albert Fu) will demonstrate features thatmaybe used to optimize data quality.Getting The Most Out of Data Processing - (Albert Fu  John Rose) will demonstrate data processing using XDS, Kylin and HKL2000.Experimental Phasing With SHELX C/D/E -(George Sheldrick) will demonstrate the use of the SHELX suite for experimental phasing of SAD data.Participants are encouraged to bring their laptops (Windows, Mac or Linux) so that theymaywork through the test data during the workshop. The required software and data sets will be provided via the web (directions will be provided at the Winter School) or via USB drive at the meeting.Limited travel bursaries arestillavailable to young investigators (students and postdoc) who wish to attend. You may submit your application online athttp://wssxmc.bmb.uga.edu/Travel_Bursary.htmlor contact John Rose (jpr...@uga.edu).Online registration at: http://wssxmc.bmb.uga.edu.An updated Program Outline is attached.

5th Winter School Program Outline_150204.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document


Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays

2015-02-05 Thread Alexandre OURJOUMTSEV
Dear Jacob,

there was a nice small computation project by Anne Bochow published in the CCP4 
Newsletters (2005), 

http://www.ccp4.ac.uk/newsletters/newsletter42/content.html,  communication 
9,

illustrating how strong and how confusing the ripples may be indeed; if you 
want I may send it you off list the corresponding pdf file. Please make a look 
the figures, they are very impressive. And Pavel just commented how to 
distinguish such the ripples from the peaks for the deformation bond density. 

With best regards,

Sacha Urzhumtsev


De : CCP4 bulletin board [CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] de la part de Keller, Jacob 
[kell...@janelia.hhmi.org]
Envoyé : jeudi 5 février 2015 21:53
À : CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Objet : Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays

What about the bogey of Fourier truncation ripples--I have heard many have been 
fooled by the into thinking they were seeing orbitals. How does one tell the 
difference?

JPK



[ccp4bb] Superposition of select residues

2015-02-05 Thread Kgosisejo, Oarabile
Hi all,

Does anyone know of a program to use to superpose only selected protein 
residues, e.g. enzyme active site residues. I solved my structure using 
molecular replacement now I want to compare its active site to those of 
homologous structures. I have used the DALI server before but I had to upload 
the whole model.

Thank you for your advise

Best Regards,

Oarabile M. Kgosisejo, MSc. Candidate
University of Saskatchewan
o.kgosis...@usask.ca


Re: [ccp4bb] Superposition of select residues

2015-02-05 Thread holdenj
The program chimera will align homologous structures from which you can 
generate a sequence alignment (based on the structural alignment)


http://www.cgl.ucsf.edu/chimera/docs/ContributedSoftware/matchalign/matchalign.html

~JH

On 05.02.2015 14:41, Kgosisejo, Oarabile wrote:

Hi all,

 Does anyone know of a program to use to superpose only selected
protein residues, e.g. enzyme active site residues. I solved my
structure using molecular replacement now I want to compare its active
site to those of homologous structures. I have used the DALI server
before but I had to upload the whole model.

 Thank you for your advise

BEST REGARDS,

 Oarabile M. Kgosisejo, MSc. Candidate
 University of Saskatchewan

 o.kgosis...@usask.ca


Re: [ccp4bb] Superposition of select residues

2015-02-05 Thread Andrew Orry
The free ICM-Browser from MolSoft can do this - 
http://www.molsoft.com/icm_browser.html  It will calculate the Ca-atom, 
backbone and heavy atom differences between multiple structures and 
superimpose.

To do this:
1. Download and install ICM-Browser here (Win, Mac or Linux) 
http://www.molsoft.com/getbrowser.cgi

2. Read in the PDB structures using the search tab or File/Open
2. Select the residues in the proteins you wish to superimpose
3. Click on the superimpose button in the display tab - you can select 
one structure to be static.

http://www.molsoft.com/gui/protein-structure-tutorials.html#protein-structure-tutorials-superimpose
Thanks,
Andrew

--
Andrew Orry Ph.D.
Senior Research Scientist
MolSoft LLC
11199 Sorrento Valley Road
San Diego, CA 92121
--
Tel: 858-625-2000 x108
Fax: 858-625-2888
www.molsoft.com
www.twitter.com/MolSoft


On 2/5/2015 2:41 PM, Kgosisejo, Oarabile wrote:

Hi all,

Does anyone know of a program to use to superpose only selected 
protein residues, e.g. enzyme active site residues. I solved my 
structure using molecular replacement now I want to compare its active 
site to those of homologous structures. I have used the DALI server 
before but I had to upload the whole model.


Thank you for your advise

*Best Regards,*
*
*
*Oarabile M. Kgosisejo, MSc. Candidate
University of Saskatchewan
*
*o.kgosis...@usask.ca*




Re: [ccp4bb] Superposition of select residues

2015-02-05 Thread Kgosisejo, Oarabile
Dear Andrew,

Thank you very much for the detailed instructions. I am downloading it

Best Regards,

Oarabile M. Kgosisejo
o.kgosis...@usask.ca

From: Andrew Orry [a...@molsoft.com]
Sent: February 5, 2015 4:57 PM
To: Kgosisejo, Oarabile; CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Superposition of select residues

The free ICM-Browser from MolSoft can do this -  
http://www.molsoft.com/icm_browser.html  It will calculate the Ca-atom, 
backbone and heavy atom differences between multiple structures and superimpose.
To do this:
1. Download and install ICM-Browser here (Win, Mac or Linux) 
http://www.molsoft.com/getbrowser.cgi
2. Read in the PDB structures using the search tab or File/Open
2. Select the residues in the proteins you wish to superimpose
3. Click on the superimpose button in the display tab - you can select one 
structure to be static.
http://www.molsoft.com/gui/protein-structure-tutorials.html#protein-structure-tutorials-superimpose
Thanks,
Andrew

--
Andrew Orry Ph.D.
Senior Research Scientist
MolSoft LLC
11199 Sorrento Valley Road
San Diego, CA 92121
--
Tel: 858-625-2000 x108
Fax: 858-625-2888
www.molsoft.comhttp://www.molsoft.com
www.twitter.com/MolSofthttp://www.twitter.com/MolSoft

On 2/5/2015 2:41 PM, Kgosisejo, Oarabile wrote:
Hi all,

Does anyone know of a program to use to superpose only selected protein 
residues, e.g. enzyme active site residues. I solved my structure using 
molecular replacement now I want to compare its active site to those of 
homologous structures. I have used the DALI server before but I had to upload 
the whole model.

Thank you for your advise

Best Regards,

Oarabile M. Kgosisejo, MSc. Candidate
University of Saskatchewan
o.kgosis...@usask.camailto:o.kgosis...@usask.ca



Re: [ccp4bb] Superposition of select residues

2015-02-05 Thread Zhijie Li
Hi Oarabile,

Coot allows you to align structures by selected atoms:
https://www2.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk/Personal/pemsley/coot/docs/coot-faq.html#How-do-I-do-a-superposition-on-just-a-part-of-my-structure_003f
I guess what you are trying to do can be accomplished by the “multi-range LSQ 
superposition” method.

Note that the commands shown in the above page are in Guile/Scheme format, 
which is now not supported in Coot (if I am correct). You need to write the 
commands in python format like this:

superpose_with_atom_selection (0, //B/1-100”, 1, //B/1-100,0)
-basically: i)replace all ‘-’with ‘_’in function name, ii) put all parameters 
in a pair of brackets and iii) separate them with commas. 
For python formatting see 
https://www2.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk/Personal/pemsley/coot/web/docs/coot.html#Python

You can either make a little txt file “scripts.py” with these commands and let 
Coot run it, or you can type them one by one in Calculate-Scripting-python.

Zhijie

From: Kgosisejo, Oarabile 
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 5:41 PM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK 
Subject: [ccp4bb] Superposition of select residues

Hi all,

Does anyone know of a program to use to superpose only selected protein 
residues, e.g. enzyme active site residues. I solved my structure using 
molecular replacement now I want to compare its active site to those of 
homologous structures. I have used the DALI server before but I had to upload 
the whole model.

Thank you for your advise


Best Regards,


Oarabile M. Kgosisejo, MSc. Candidate
University of Saskatchewan

o.kgosis...@usask.ca

Re: [ccp4bb] off topic pymol

2015-02-05 Thread Horrell, Sam
Hi Almudena,

Have a look in your PDB file in the second to last colum, if it looks something 
like the example below then delete the As from the fine and it should connect 
up. I've had this before, not sure where it came from but removing it fixed the 
problem.

ATOM371  CA  PRO A  48 -11.300 -19.315 -35.308  1.00 91.62   C
ATOM372  CB  PRO A  48 -10.546 -20.584 -35.726  1.00 90.06   C
ATOM373  CG  PRO A  48  -9.106 -20.254 -35.548  1.00 91.26   C
ATOM374  CD  PRO A  48  -8.992 -19.119 -34.570  1.00 91.06   C
ATOM375  C   PRO A  48 -12.669 -19.668 -34.722  1.00 85.38   C
ATOM376  O   PRO A  48 -13.686 -19.209 -35.228  1.00 79.05   O
ATOM377  N   ARG A  49 -12.683 -20.461 -33.658  1.00 91.80  AN
ATOM378  CA  ARG A  49 -13.936 -20.872 -33.022  1.00101.75  AC
ATOM379  CB  ARG A  49 -13.717 -22.064 -32.077  1.00109.37  AC
ATOM380  CG  ARG A  49 -15.008 -22.749 -31.637  1.00106.33  AC
ATOM381  CD  ARG A  49 -14.933 -23.259 -30.207  1.00104.16  AC

Hope that helps,

Sam

From: CCP4 bulletin board [CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] on behalf of Almudena Ponce 
Salvatierra [maps.fa...@gmail.com]
Sent: 04 February 2015 17:07
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: [ccp4bb] off topic pymol

Dear all,

does anyone know why if I open a pdb in pymol (that appears normal and fully 
connected in coot) it appears as if it was broken into pieces?

Thanks,

Almudena.

--
Almudena Ponce-Salvatierra
Macromolecular crystallography and Nucleic acid chemistry
Max Planck Institute for Biophysical Chemistry
Am Fassberg 11 37077 Göttingen
Germany



[ccp4bb] Job Advert

2015-02-05 Thread Phillips, Chris
Please see the recent job advert for a position with AstraZeneca in  Cambridge.

http://jobs.astrazeneca.com/jobs/details/l1rRD1248-senior-scientist-crystallography



Chris Phillips
Associate Director, Protein Structure, UK
_

AstraZeneca
RD | Innovative Medicines | Discovery Sciences
50S38, Mereside, Alderley Park, Macclesfield, Cheshire, UK, SK10 4TG
T: +44 (0)1625 513316
chris.phill...@astrazeneca.commailto:rick.dav...@astrazeneca.com

 P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail



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Re: [ccp4bb] Protein-Ligand Crystallization

2015-02-05 Thread John Newitt
Hi Monica,

Your Tm results don't suggest any binding of your ligand to the protein. Your 
ligand concentrations are quite high so I am not convinced of even weak 
binding. The destabilization that you are seeing at the highest concentration 
may be due to ligand precipitation causing protein denaturation/unfolding.

If available, I would search for other ligands for co-crystallization. 
Alternatively, confirm the ligand binding by some other technique before 
investing a lot of time and protein in crystallization screening.

John

Sent from my iPad

 On Feb 5, 2015, at 8:43 AM, Monica Mittal monica.mitta...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Hi all,
 I am working to crystallize a protein-ligand complex. I did a preliminary 
 melting curve analysis for the protein in the absence and presence of 2 
 ligands (dissolved in protein buffer). I kept the other controls as buffer an 
 a known standard to confirm instrument performance. All expts done in 
 triplicates.
 Now the results are like : Tm of protein alone is 56 deg, Tm in the presence 
 of Lig1 conc. of 0.05mM, 0.1mM, 1.0mM and 10.0mM is 56.2, 56.1, 56.0 and 53.5 
 respectively !! Tm in the presence of Lig 2 conc. of 0.05mM, 0.1mM, 1.0mM, 
 4.0mM and 10.0mM is 56.2, 56.1, 54.9, 52.3 and 50.6 respectively !!  
 Although the effective delta Tm for both is different at higher 
 concentration, but both are kind of making protein less stable. So i was 
 wondering, will it be difficult to co-crystallize them !! Any suggestions in 
 this regard are highly appreciated !!
 
 Thanks
 Monica


Re: [ccp4bb] Protein-Ligand Crystallization

2015-02-05 Thread Jurgen Bosch
Hi Monica,

A different option is they both bind but destabilize your protein (as you 
suggested). This will likely not help much if you are trying to co-crystallize 
them. But there are couple of examples out there in the literature that show 
the contrary, despite destabilizing Tm they got structures with bound ligands - 
I think it was the Beryllium Clan out in Seattle that had such an example but I 
might be misremembering this.

There’s a clear dose-dependency in both ligands, so I would give it a shot 
(assuming you have enough protein  ligands).
You could run some ITC or SPR experiments to verify this if you happen to have 
access to such an instrument.
Now if you have an enzymatic assay, that can be tricky if you are looking for 
inhibition. Yes your ligands may inhibit, great but perhaps your protein is 
simply destabilized and unfolds etc. and fails to fulfill its normal function - 
here it would be handy to run some CD spectra to actually se if there is a 
dose-dependent unfolding of the protein. This will also help you decide how 
likely it might be to co-crystallize the ligand.

Do you have native crystals ? Soak your ligands in and observe if they 
crack/dissolve.

Good luck,

Jürgen


..
Jürgen Bosch
Johns Hopkins University
Bloomberg School of Public Health
Department of Biochemistry  Molecular Biology
Johns Hopkins Malaria Research Institute
615 North Wolfe Street, W8708
Baltimore, MD 21205
Office: +1-410-614-4742tel:%2B1-410-614-4742
Lab:  +1-410-614-4894tel:%2B1-410-614-4894
Fax:  +1-410-955-2926tel:%2B1-410-955-2926
http://lupo.jhsph.edu

On Feb 5, 2015, at 9:33 PM, John Newitt 
newit...@gmail.commailto:newit...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Monica,

Your Tm results don't suggest any binding of your ligand to the protein. Your 
ligand concentrations are quite high so I am not convinced of even weak 
binding. The destabilization that you are seeing at the highest concentration 
may be due to ligand precipitation causing protein denaturation/unfolding.

If available, I would search for other ligands for co-crystallization. 
Alternatively, confirm the ligand binding by some other technique before 
investing a lot of time and protein in crystallization screening.

John

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 5, 2015, at 8:43 AM, Monica Mittal 
monica.mitta...@gmail.commailto:monica.mitta...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi all,
I am working to crystallize a protein-ligand complex. I did a preliminary 
melting curve analysis for the protein in the absence and presence of 2 ligands 
(dissolved in protein buffer). I kept the other controls as buffer an a known 
standard to confirm instrument performance. All expts done in triplicates.
Now the results are like : Tm of protein alone is 56 deg, Tm in the presence of 
Lig1 conc. of 0.05mM, 0.1mM, 1.0mM and 10.0mM is 56.2, 56.1, 56.0 and 53.5 
respectively !! Tm in the presence of Lig 2 conc. of 0.05mM, 0.1mM, 1.0mM, 
4.0mM and 10.0mM is 56.2, 56.1, 54.9, 52.3 and 50.6 respectively !!
Although the effective delta Tm for both is different at higher concentration, 
but both are kind of making protein less stable. So i was wondering, will it be 
difficult to co-crystallize them !! Any suggestions in this regard are highly 
appreciated !!

Thanks
Monica



Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays

2015-02-05 Thread Mark van der Woerd
Hi Peter,

Try to think of it as a quantum chemist:
What you call H+ is not H+ floating in space. They are hydrogens bound to the 
rest of the structure by means of electrons. These electrons can be described 
by wave functions, which relate to probabilities where they (electrons) might 
be.

If we consider for simplicity water, we learn in a simple model that each O-H 
bond contains two electrons. On average, they like to be closer to O and than 
to H. But it does not mean H has none. 

You need high-quality, high-resolution data to actually visualize this and in 
small molecule work this is commonly done. In macromolecular work not so much, 
but my search easily found an example (see 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC16211/ for Crambin) where you can 
see the electrons between N and H in the backbone.

The main difference between what you think of as H+ and H- is one and two 
bonds, respectively. The density in their figures does not look all that 
different, but says something should be here. We then propose H in the 
location and show that it adequately explains the experimental data.

HTH

Mark 

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Peter Moody pcem1bigfi...@gmail.com
To: CCP4BB CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Sent: Mon, Feb 2, 2015 11:33 am
Subject: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays


 
   
Dear BB
  


   
I have (again) realised how limited by understanding of our subject is.
  


   
In Nature’s online site 
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature14110.html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20150129
 there is a paper describing an X-ray structure determined with sub-atomic data 
(nice!).  The figures show density for H+ as well as H-. In my simple way I had 
assumed that any X-ray scattering from the nucleus was negligible, and that the 
electrons are responsible for this. I would expect a proton (i.e. H+) alone to 
be invisible to X-rays, and certainly not to look similar to a hydride (with 
two electrons in (electron density) maps. What have I missed?  Could someone 
please explain, or point me to a suitable reference?
   


  
Best wishes, Peter 

  
(please use peter.mo...@le.ac.uk to reply directly)
   
   
http://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/biochemistry/staff/moody
   
 
 


Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays

2015-02-05 Thread Mark van der Woerd
Not very well. When you look in the originally quoted article, there is really 
not much difference in the ED for H+ and H- (which are conveniently both shown 
in Fig 2). You build a model that is consistent with 'book knowledge' (i.e. 
normal hydrogen has only one bond) and take it from there. 

You have a point that the resolution isn't very good at 0.89A (sorry!)  but I 
suspect that the number of recorded reflections is much more important than the 
nebulous number of 0.89A (i.e. you can start to see these little details 
because you finally have an over-determined system parameters). 

What you CAN do in fact is appropriately subtract spherical electron density 
from the experimental density and see what is left (i.e. directional ED that is 
'surplus'). I tried to quickly find a paper on that, they exist, and they show 
that experimental density does confirm what we learn in chemistry class, 
orbitals are not imaginary. 

Mark

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Doug Ohlendorf oh...@umn.edu
To: CCP4BB CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Sent: Mon, Feb 2, 2015 11:29 am
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays


But, how with x-rays can one experimentally tell the difference between a 
hydrogen and a filled orbital (say of N)? I will grant that the electron 
density for a bound H should extend farther from the heavy atom but I believe 
you would need resolution better than 0.89 Ang to see this difference.

Doug

Douglas H. Ohlendorf   Phone:  612-624-8436
Professor  FAX:612-624-5121
Dept. of Biochemistry, Molecular Biology  Biophysics
Twin Cities Campus, University of Minnesota
Lab web site:   http://biosci.cbs.umn.edu/bmbb/ohlen_lab/index.html


-Original Message-
From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Colin Nave
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 9:04 AM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays

“As you say the proton itself is invisible to X-rays.”
Not quite! The ratio of scattering between electrons and protons should go as 
the inverse square of the masses.
Ratio of mass 1:1860, ratio of scattering 1:3459600. A small correction but 
doubtless it has been incorporated in to SHELX.
Colin


From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Ian Tickle
Sent: 02 February 2015 13:35
To: ccp4bb
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] proton scattering by X-rays


Peter, if it's a covalently-bonded H atom it surely can't be a bare proton, it 
must have at least some partial electron around it for the (possibly partial) 
covalent bond, enough to diffract X-rays anyway.  As you say the proton itself 
is invisible to X-rays.
Cheers
-- Ian

On 2 February 2015 at 13:08, Peter Moody 
pcem1bigfi...@gmail.commailto:pcem1bigfi...@gmail.com wrote:
Dear BB

I have (again) realised how limited by understanding of our subject is.

In Nature’s online site 
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature14110.html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20150129
 there is a paper describing an X-ray structure determined with sub-atomic data 
(nice!).  The figures show density for H+ as well as H-. In my simple way I had 
assumed that any X-ray scattering from the nucleus was negligible, and that the 
electrons are responsible for this. I would expect a proton (i.e. H+) alone to 
be invisible to X-rays, and certainly not to look similar to a hydride (with 
two electrons in (electron density) maps. What have I missed?  Could someone 
please explain, or point me to a suitable reference?

Best wishes, Peter
(please use peter.mo...@le.ac.ukmailto:peter.mo...@le.ac.uk to reply directly)

http://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/biochemistry/staff/moody



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