[cctalk] Re: Excellent CHM Article on Apple Lisa Software (Apple Archive)
Thank you for that link. As usual, the Vogons get credit for something that was accomplished in spite of the Vogons. At one time, Apple had a historical exhibit. It ended with the Macintosh, with NO provision for any future expansion. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com On Wed, 25 Jan 2023, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: Though it is not a source code, there is a nice article by a retired librarian that used to work at Apple. Anna Mancini helped save a lot of material that Apple discarded in the past. Anna talks about the Apple Archives at https://annamancini.substack.com/p/how-the-apple-archive-ended-up-at Regards, Tarek Hoteit https://tarek.computer
[cctalk] Re: Excellent CHM Article on Apple Lisa Software (Apple Archive)
> On Jan 25, 2023, at 8:03 PM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk > wrote: > > Though it is not a source code, there is a nice article by a retired > librarian that used to work at Apple. Anna Mancini helped save a lot of > material that Apple discarded in the past. Anna talks about the Apple > Archives at > https://annamancini.substack.com/p/how-the-apple-archive-ended-up-at > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > https://tarek.computer Wow. I need to read the whole thing, but some things are blowing my mind already. I remember an infamous Bill Gates quote "the source code is the documentation". But it appears that Gates was several orders of magnitude saner than Steve Jobs. "They should know all that already" -- with brain damage like that, it's amazing he was able to build a company at all. paul
[cctalk] Re: Excellent CHM Article on Apple Lisa Software (Apple Archive)
Though it is not a source code, there is a nice article by a retired librarian that used to work at Apple. Anna Mancini helped save a lot of material that Apple discarded in the past. Anna talks about the Apple Archives at https://annamancini.substack.com/p/how-the-apple-archive-ended-up-at Regards, Tarek Hoteit https://tarek.computer > On Jan 25, 2023, at 2:59 PM, Lee Courtney via cctalk > wrote: > > I thought this was an excellent article on work at CHM on curating, > documenting, and making Apple Lisa software available - thank you Al. Would > be interesting to see other software collection objects curated in this way. > > https://computerhistory.org/blog/apple-lisa-still-more-to-uncover/ > > Enjoy! > -- > Lee Courtney
[cctalk] Excellent CHM Article on Apple Lisa Software
I thought this was an excellent article on work at CHM on curating, documenting, and making Apple Lisa software available - thank you Al. Would be interesting to see other software collection objects curated in this way. https://computerhistory.org/blog/apple-lisa-still-more-to-uncover/ Enjoy! -- Lee Courtney
[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man
> On Jan 25, 2023, at 3:52 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 1/25/2023 3:22 PM, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/25/23 11:53, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >>> And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing >>> keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change >>> (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I know >>> we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual symbol >>> on the keys might be neat. >> A keyboard using small 48x48 pixel OLED screens on each of the keys has >> been done. It was many years ago and they were super expensive at the >> time. As a result they were not commercially successful. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard > > Changing keys would be rather hard on a touch typist, don't you think? > > > bill A touch typist probably won't notice in the first place. But anyone who isn't quite that skilled might benefit. An obvious application is when you're dealing with multiple scripts. Two can be handled with custom keycaps, but more than two would be problematic. paul
[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man
On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 12:53 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > A keyboard using small 48x48 pixel OLED screens on each of the keys has > > been done. It was many years ago and they were super expensive at the > > time. As a result they were not commercially successful. > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard > > Changing keys would be rather hard on a touch typist, don't you think? > If I remember correctly, one of the applications for these was for stock traders. Keys that changed according to context were apparently useful in that regard. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man
On 1/25/2023 3:22 PM, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: On 1/25/23 11:53, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I know we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual symbol on the keys might be neat. A keyboard using small 48x48 pixel OLED screens on each of the keys has been done. It was many years ago and they were super expensive at the time. As a result they were not commercially successful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard Changing keys would be rather hard on a touch typist, don't you think? bill
[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man
On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 12:23 PM John-Paul Stewart via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 1/25/23 11:53, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > > > And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing > > keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change > > (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I > know > > we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual > symbol > > on the keys might be neat. > > A keyboard using small 48x48 pixel OLED screens on each of the keys has > been done. It was many years ago and they were super expensive at the > time. As a result they were not commercially successful. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard I remember these. Very cool. But Steve's original query reminded me of videos I came across a few days ago of the (very rare) Con Brio Synthesizer, which has a panel with a myriad of buttons that light up/go dark depending on the context of the mode, facilitating the operator in highlighting only those buttons applicable in the current mode. Here's a video that explains its operation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-tr9FUGlr0 I had a hand in restoring that synth. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man
On 1/25/23 11:53, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing > keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change > (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I know > we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual symbol > on the keys might be neat. A keyboard using small 48x48 pixel OLED screens on each of the keys has been done. It was many years ago and they were super expensive at the time. As a result they were not commercially successful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard
[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man
On 1/25/23 09:46, ben via cctalk wrote: > Where is is the IMPLES logic function? EQV? > Lets get updated from 1960's algol, bfore even talking about new stuff, > like lower case latin letters. > That includes the keyboard and display. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDC_display_code It was part of the 6-bit CDC display code ca.1963. It did make FORTRAN programs "interesting" to read, however. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man
On 2023-01-25 9:53 a.m., Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I know we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual symbol on the keys might be neat. I think a whole new redesign of the keybord is needed, mostly for accent marks. And no, none of this icons for faces and other crap like print screen. (PS2 please for old computers) All the good ideas are here. http://quadibloc.com/comp/compint.htm Also, does any processor support a dynamic instruction set? I've wonder if some instruction-set optimizer might find improvements by indicating your program could be executed more efficiently if such-and-such instruction was available. Where is is the IMPLES logic function? EQV? Lets get updated from 1960's algol, bfore even talking about new stuff, like lower case latin letters. That includes the keyboard and display. On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 11:49 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: Ben.
[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man
My personal experience of graphical programming environments (scratch, matlab, PLCs, Max/MSP - though all in quite trivial amounts) is that they're dreadful. Painfully slow to use and clumsy compared with straight C. There are too many possible variants of what you might want to do, so every simple for-loop block gains a heap of optional parameters which destroys the point. One contrary example is node-red, used to design data flows and also for teensy's audio programming environment. When the main idea is flow and each block's parameters are either obvious (like filter cut-off frequency) or inherent in the connections (the lists of parameters that describe where the data is flowing rom and to) then they can be a help. I'd recommend playing with the Teensy audio system (you don't need to pay for it) to see what you think. On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 4:53 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm familiar with Scratch, my daughter used it in elementary. I had > forgotten about it though - it seemed focused on the task of depicting and > moving objects on a 2D area, not so much in general information processing > (but still, yes it could be a starting point). One hallmark of a "good > development environment" that someone once told me is that that development > environment can be used to create itself. Like, by Borland Delphi 2, they > used Delphi to create Delphi. Same on the Visual Studio development team > - they compile and develop VS using VS. So, I wonder if Scratch can > create itself? It's not a hard rule, just a casual observation on the > "robustness" or maturity of a given development environment. > > There's always been a kind of "two tiers" of software developers - those > who can create reusable routines (libraries) and those who can mold > existing libraries to build applications. Obviously some can do both, but > generally the latter get "stuck" if there isn't some existing > function/routine in an API to do what they need to do -- like open a > socket, start a thread, or query system time. The former tends to need to > sink into OS and HW specifics. > > With this "blocked" code floating in VR -- the idea is then "behind the > code" to show a virtualization of the resources needed by that code, to > quickly get an idea of the hardware requirements (relative to how many > resources it is using) and also linkages to other software, to get a feel > for the overall complexity.These are important metric to see the > versatility of re-using that code in other environments/platforms. > > And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing > keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change > (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I know > we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual symbol > on the keys might be neat. > > Also, does any processor support a dynamic instruction set? I've wonder if > some instruction-set optimizer might find improvements by indicating your > program could be executed more efficiently if such-and-such instruction was > available. > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 11:49 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:41 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > BTW, I've wondered if some form of stenography could be used for > software > > > development. In my mind, it would make sense to just program directly > > in > > > a kind of Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) from the beginning - why bother > with > > > all the syntaxic sugar and peddling ascii text characters around a file > > to > > > form a program. So now I wonder if "building" a program using an AST > > > might be possible in VR.. you "grab" a FOR loop virtually from a box on > > the > > > left, add it to your program tree, and build out from there decorating > > the > > > tree > > > > > > > Are you familiar with Google Scratch? > > > > https://scratch.mit.edu/ > > > > Add the VR interface and you basically have what you describe. > > > > Sellam > > >
[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man
I'm familiar with Scratch, my daughter used it in elementary. I had forgotten about it though - it seemed focused on the task of depicting and moving objects on a 2D area, not so much in general information processing (but still, yes it could be a starting point). One hallmark of a "good development environment" that someone once told me is that that development environment can be used to create itself. Like, by Borland Delphi 2, they used Delphi to create Delphi. Same on the Visual Studio development team - they compile and develop VS using VS. So, I wonder if Scratch can create itself? It's not a hard rule, just a casual observation on the "robustness" or maturity of a given development environment. There's always been a kind of "two tiers" of software developers - those who can create reusable routines (libraries) and those who can mold existing libraries to build applications. Obviously some can do both, but generally the latter get "stuck" if there isn't some existing function/routine in an API to do what they need to do -- like open a socket, start a thread, or query system time. The former tends to need to sink into OS and HW specifics. With this "blocked" code floating in VR -- the idea is then "behind the code" to show a virtualization of the resources needed by that code, to quickly get an idea of the hardware requirements (relative to how many resources it is using) and also linkages to other software, to get a feel for the overall complexity.These are important metric to see the versatility of re-using that code in other environments/platforms. And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I know we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual symbol on the keys might be neat. Also, does any processor support a dynamic instruction set? I've wonder if some instruction-set optimizer might find improvements by indicating your program could be executed more efficiently if such-and-such instruction was available. On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 11:49 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:41 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > BTW, I've wondered if some form of stenography could be used for software > > development. In my mind, it would make sense to just program directly > in > > a kind of Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) from the beginning - why bother with > > all the syntaxic sugar and peddling ascii text characters around a file > to > > form a program. So now I wonder if "building" a program using an AST > > might be possible in VR.. you "grab" a FOR loop virtually from a box on > the > > left, add it to your program tree, and build out from there decorating > the > > tree > > > > Are you familiar with Google Scratch? > > https://scratch.mit.edu/ > > Add the VR interface and you basically have what you describe. > > Sellam >
[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man
On 2023-01-24 10:49 p.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:41 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: BTW, I've wondered if some form of stenography could be used for software development. In my mind, it would make sense to just program directly in a kind of Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) from the beginning - why bother with all the syntaxic sugar and peddling ascii text characters around a file to form a program. So now I wonder if "building" a program using an AST might be possible in VR.. you "grab" a FOR loop virtually from a box on the left, add it to your program tree, and build out from there decorating the tree Are you familiar with Google Scratch? https://scratch.mit.edu/ Add the VR interface and you basically have what you describe. Sellam I some how like meta II, better than this new stuff. Cards in,Cards out. Needed to tweek my assembler on the home brew computer to handle local variables. !int g g rs 4 c rs 4 ! foo-bar(int a,b) ! int c; /* local */ ! begin .local a: rs 4 b: rs 4 .args c rs 4 foo-bar: lea s s - _local_ ! c = a + b - g ld r1 a add r1 b sub r1 g st r1 c ! return c ld r1 c lea s s _local_ ret lea s s _local ret ! end .global Did any assembler for the old machines handle local variables or had macros to do the same thing? Ben.
[cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C restoration
On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 11:35 AM Adrian Godwin wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 10:27 AM Tony Duell via cctalk > wrote: >> >> >> I've put a few photos of the machine (in bits) in my flickr account here : >> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/albums/72177720304931970 >> >> > > Nice ! Very thorough cleaning of the disc drive ! Don't try that unless you have an alignment disk and know how to use it! > But I'm curious about the eye-bolts. I assume not original. Do you hang it > from the ceiling ? No, they're for the non-original carrying strap. The strap is essential as the end fittings hold the keyboard in place when the machine is stored. Not having the originals, I made some replacements from aluminium strip and bar. The eyebolts are fittted into tapped holes in the bars. I then clipped the shoulder strap from a sports bag type thing onto the eyebolts to be able to carry the machine. To be honest the strap doesn't feel strong enough. I am pretty sure _my_ metal parts are at least as strong as the original plastic ones, but I will try to get a better strap before I carry the machine about too much. Calling the machine 'portable' is stretching things a bit too. It's heaver than a lot of the desktop machines I have (albeit the latter without monitor and keyboard). I feel the P2000C was portable in the sense that you could carry it from the office/lab to the lift, down in the lift to the car park and put it in the boot of your car to take it home or for an off-site job. Not portable in the sense that you'd take it across the country on public transport. -tony
[cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C restoration
On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 10:27 AM Tony Duell via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I've put a few photos of the machine (in bits) in my flickr account here : > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/albums/72177720304931970 > > > Nice ! Very thorough cleaning of the disc drive ! But I'm curious about the eye-bolts. I assume not original. Do you hang it from the ceiling ?
[cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C restoration
On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 10:41 AM jos via cctalk wrote: > >> It booted straight up > > Where's the fun in that? > > > > > Not much, agreed. But plenty of other stuff here to keep me occupied well > until I am 130 years old ! Oh yes, same with me. More projects than I could ever complete. But my house has a finite volume. So I try not to buy things that are of little interest. -tony
[cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C restoration
On 25.01.23 11:08, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 7:52 AM jos via cctalk wrote: Interesting and detailed description, thanks ! my P2000C "restauration" was much simpler : I picked it up, including carrying case and all the original disks, from the e-waste ( illegally..) and found it be be in pristine condition, It booted straight up Where's the fun in that? -tony Not much, agreed. But plenty of other stuff here to keep me occupied well until I am 130 years old !
[cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C restoration
On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 7:41 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > Thank you Tony for your well written and informative post describing the > restoration of a Philips P2000C luggable. > I wish there would be more posts like yours. Thanks. I've put a few photos of the machine (in bits) in my flickr account here : https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/albums/72177720304931970 Feel free to take a look. -tony
[cctalk] Re: Philips P2000C restoration
On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 7:52 AM jos via cctalk wrote: > > > Interesting and detailed description, thanks ! > > my P2000C "restauration" was much simpler : > > I picked it up, including carrying case and all the original disks, from the > e-waste ( illegally..) and found it be be in pristine condition, > > It booted straight up Where's the fun in that? -tony
[cctalk] Re: Restoring floppy disk images to their rightful media
On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon wrote: I know people seemed kind of turned off by the idea of GOTEK floppy disk emulators, but you do realize if you actually have the machine you are wanting to make disks for the GOTEK is a great way to do it. Put a GOTEK and a real drive on the machine and just use backup. Then, for the purists, take the GOTEK back off and hide it in a drawer. A fully valid setup. But for me, I doubt that it would make my life easier because I do have the means to create standard IBM format floppies on my PC. I don't know it, but does the GOTEK support raw images with timing, sector and index information? If it supported e.g. hard sectored non-standard disk images, then this would definitely catch my attention! :-) Christian
[cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man)
Chris, can you *please* correctly indent and cite messages you are referring to? I am getting annoyed by guessing what part is from whom. Christian On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, skogkatt...@yahoo.com wrote: On Monday, January 23, 2023, 09:58:07 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: sorry, never had one. Chuck might know the cookie coercivity specs! 8" and 5.25" were 300 Oersted 5.25" HD was 600 Oersted I think that 720K 3.5" was about 600 Oersted and 1.4M was about 720-750, being close enough that that was why you could sometimes get away with using a 720K disk as a 1.4M https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_density has a chart, but not sure if all of the sources are reliable and does not include 2.5" C: Remember though they are 2" disks. And shootimg from the hip, if coercivity wasn't on spec, would a) would that pose a threat to the disk dribe's circuitry. And b) could the circuit be tweaked to work with what's there. I'm not sure how this could be worked out, but it seems to me there could be a way to modify a drive so that it could measure a disk's coercivity. There was that scene in the Jackal where a hacker woman claimed she could read a card's magnetic strip with a disk drive. I guess it's possible the more I think about it.
