Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
On Thursday 21 Jan 2010, Dave Watts wrote: Melbourne which had PHP topics, but I don't think CF would be an appropriate topic at an open-source conference, since, you know, it's closed-source. Nah...there's a open language spec (due any day now) and at least two open source implementations of it, as well as Adobe's closed one. I keep meaning to mention it to our local GeekUp/Free software as a talk idea. -- Helping to augmentatively leverage next-generation platforms as part of the IT team of the year 2010, '09 and '08 This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office together with a list of those non members who are referred to as partners. We use the word partner to refer to a member of the LLP, or an employee or consultant with equivalent standing and qualifications. Regulated by the Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.co ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:330008 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
Melbourne which had PHP topics, but I don't think CF would be an appropriate topic at an open-source conference, since, you know, it's closed-source. Nah...there's a open language spec (due any day now) and at least two open source implementations of it, as well as Adobe's closed one. I keep meaning to mention it to our local GeekUp/Free software as a talk idea. CF != CFML While I think that the open-source CFML implementations are great and all, I think you can understand why Adobe might not present at an open-source conference, right? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:330021 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
On Friday 22 Jan 2010, Dave Watts wrote: While I think that the open-source CFML implementations are great and all, I think you can understand why Adobe might not present at an open-source conference, right? Adobe does a ton of good open source work, in particular around Flex. They have a good story to tell, and based on Sean Corfield's blog about the CFML spec., they could do something similar around that if they wanted to. -- Helping to proactively expedite performance-oriented innovative corporate granular web-readiness as part of the IT team of the year 2010, '09 and '08 This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office together with a list of those non members who are referred to as partners. We use the word partner to refer to a member of the LLP, or an employee or consultant with equivalent standing and qualifications. Regulated by the Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.co ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:330023 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
While I think that the open-source CFML implementations are great and all, I think you can understand why Adobe might not present at an open-source conference, right? Adobe does a ton of good open source work, in particular around Flex. They have a good story to tell, and based on Sean Corfield's blog about the CFML spec., they could do something similar around that if they wanted to. Well sure, they do all sorts of good stuff in the open-source world, but I don't see that helping them to sell CF. So I wouldn't be surprised to see the CF sales team give a pass to open-source conferences. They don't have an infinite budget, after all. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:330027 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
There is never a lack of coldfusion google alerts and here is a nice one... While this is just a fraction of the ColdFusion sites out there, it's still cool in my opinion... Today ColdfusionSites.com http://www.coldfusionsites.com/ covers more than 2.000 ColdFusion websites. This means that the number of ColdFusion references on ColdfusionSites.com http://www.coldfusionsites.com/ has doubled in the last six month. Also the number of countries increased from 38 to 47. New entries are e.g. Antigua, Jamaica, Liechtenstein and Luxemburg. The Top3 contributing countries are (surprise, surprise!): 1. USA (763, + 158%) 2. Switzerland (478, + 214%) 3. Germany (167, + 69%) In this reporting the Top3 contributing countries cover nearly 70% of all listed entries, while the other 44 countries cover 30% together. Beside the above mentioned, these countries as well increased their number of ColdFusion websites noticeble: Austria (+ 129%), Italy (+ 125%), New Zealand (+ 100%), Canada (+ 77%), Australia (+ 66%). Among the new entries there are wellknown companies like Anheuser-Busch InBevhttp://www.coldfusionsites.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=rcon.showRefreferenceid=3717, ATT Storehttp://www.coldfusionsites.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=rcon.showRefreferenceid=3680, eBay (Invester Relations)http://www.coldfusionsites.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=rcon.showRefreferenceid=3531, FedEx (Investor Relations)http://www.coldfusionsites.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=rcon.showRefreferenceid=3558, Hitachi (Österreich)http://www.coldfusionsites.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=rcon.showRefreferenceid=3416and Olympushttp://www.coldfusionsites.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=rcon.showRefreferenceid=3763 . We never expected, that ColdfusionSites.comhttp://www.coldfusionsites.com/has more than 2.000 incredible ColdFusion websites after 14 months. Please continue to post your best ColdFusion projects on ColdfusionSites.comhttp://www.coldfusionsites.com/and be part of the largest pool for fascinating ColdFusion projects. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:330028 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
I read it as a commentary on the state of cf in general, not specifically in Australia. Can we amend the subject line - we really don't need more grist for the 'cf is dead' mill -Original Message- From: John M Bliss [mailto:bliss.j...@gmail.com] Sent: 21 January 2010 12:54 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs Surely most of the people who read Mike's original message do not live in Australia and do not have first-hand knowledge of the state of CF there. However, Mike's subject was not Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia and several of his points seemed to be non-Australia-specific. http://www.indeed.com.au/jobs?q=coldfusion+or+cold+fusion; ...returns 32 jobs: 1 CF job for every 691,348 Australians. http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=coldfusion+OR+cold+fusion; ...returns 2,644 jobs: 1 CF job for every 116,688 Americans. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329898 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
What would be a whole lot better is if someone said 'no you are wrong, Mike, look at all the things we're doing to promote Coldfusion to .net/php/java users: a: b: c: etc' or No Mike, you're wrong the server customer base has increased over the last year by xx% or No Mike, we presented at a .Net conference in Sydney last July, and at a .php conference in Melbourne in August ... etc but there's none of that at all. Not a sound. Not even 'hey look at the great new user that bought CF Enterprise! ...' or look at this great new CF application that XXX Pty Ltd put in .. Nothing from Adobe. I might be wrong - I hope I am, but Adobe didnt know much about what to do with a server product when they bought Macromedia, and I got the impression that many Adobe people see it as a bit of an orphan, a bit of a non-core product, and not a good career move in Adobe to be associated with it unless you're Ben Forta. I got the feeling that Adobe people think it's something they got stuck with when they bought Macromedia for what they REALLY wanted - Flash and Dreamweaver. Certainly in Australia i have yet to hear of anyone at Adobe who is annoyed because I am painting them in a bad light that's undeserved. Let me say here and now that I will VERY rapidly change my tune on this if anyone can show me that I'm wrong about this.But let me summarise the 3 main factors: [A] hardly any jobs for over a year now [B] hardly any promotion activity on ColdFusion apart from preaching to the converted at CF Conferences [C] Very little or no interest in Coldfusion from the usergroups. Does that add up to a vibrant, growing, thriving community? Either prove me wrong someone, or stop bashing me for being critical and for gods sake lets poke someone in the ribs who's in a position to DO SOMETHING about it! Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Will Swain w...@hothorse.com wrote: I read it as a commentary on the state of cf in general, not specifically in Australia. Can we amend the subject line - we really don't need more grist for the 'cf is dead' mill ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329903 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
I'll take your word for it on the state of the cf market in Australia. You live and work there, and have first hand experience. Would like to hear from other Aus based cfers too on this. But, you have to see how your initial post and the thread title were misleading. -Original Message- From: Mike Kear [mailto:afpwebwo...@gmail.com] Sent: 21 January 2010 14:07 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs You are being a jerk Phillip. I'm talking about one of the world's largest and most sophisticated cities. The largest city in a very advanced economy. And in this city of nearly 5 million people there are apparently 4 jobs for people involving ColdFusion, and of those, only 2 actually want any ColdFusion programming. If I was Adobe's CEO I'd be reading the riot act about it. This is how it's been for over a year, in a country that DID NOT go into recession. I'm not complaining because I cant have the perfect job in the perfect place and I'm not going to accept anything less. That's insulting. I'm not sitting idly waiting for money to fall into my hands. That's insulting too. And how dare you presume to decide for me that I should uproot my family, kids, sell my house, move my businesses, find help for my disabled wife, when you havent got a clue about my personal situation. Life's all very easy when you dont have to worry about little details like that - when it's not YOUR family you are tipping upside down. Dont be a jerk. Actually READ what i'm saying or shut the hell up. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Phillip Vector vec...@mostdeadlygame.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 5:17 AM, Mike Kear afpwebwo...@gmail.com wrote: Interesting, John. Actually of those 32 jobs om Australia, 4 are in Sydney, the biggest city in the country, So go to the 28 other jobs and explain to them why telecommuting would be good for their company and expand your pool. Either that or move if the job market is that bad out there. Sorry if I offend, but it seems that you want the perfect job in the perfect place and it isn't working out. So instead of you doing something about it, you are claiming that no one wants CF developers anymor ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329909 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
Actually Adobe has been saying since cf.Objective 2009 (I was there in person) that their user based has grown 300% over the last 5 years. From 250k users around 2004 to over 800k users in 2008/2009. As for XYZ company just bought CF Enterprise, they're not going to share that with you unless it's for a white paper. Have you gone to the Adobe site to see if they've released white papers? It just seems like that unless you're personally looking for a CF job and can't find one, why do you care if other people think CF is dead? Andy matthews -Original Message- From: Mike Kear [mailto:afpwebwo...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 7:34 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia What would be a whole lot better is if someone said 'no you are wrong, Mike, look at all the things we're doing to promote Coldfusion to .net/php/java users: a: b: c: etc' or No Mike, you're wrong the server customer base has increased over the last year by xx% or No Mike, we presented at a .Net conference in Sydney last July, and at a .php conference in Melbourne in August ... etc but there's none of that at all. Not a sound. Not even 'hey look at the great new user that bought CF Enterprise! ...' or look at this great new CF application that XXX Pty Ltd put in .. Nothing from Adobe. I might be wrong - I hope I am, but Adobe didnt know much about what to do with a server product when they bought Macromedia, and I got the impression that many Adobe people see it as a bit of an orphan, a bit of a non-core product, and not a good career move in Adobe to be associated with it unless you're Ben Forta. I got the feeling that Adobe people think it's something they got stuck with when they bought Macromedia for what they REALLY wanted - Flash and Dreamweaver. Certainly in Australia i have yet to hear of anyone at Adobe who is annoyed because I am painting them in a bad light that's undeserved. Let me say here and now that I will VERY rapidly change my tune on this if anyone can show me that I'm wrong about this.But let me summarise the 3 main factors: [A] hardly any jobs for over a year now [B] hardly any promotion activity on ColdFusion apart from preaching to the converted at CF Conferences [C] Very little or no interest in Coldfusion from the usergroups. Does that add up to a vibrant, growing, thriving community? Either prove me wrong someone, or stop bashing me for being critical and for gods sake lets poke someone in the ribs who's in a position to DO SOMETHING about it! Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Will Swain w...@hothorse.com wrote: I read it as a commentary on the state of cf in general, not specifically in Australia. Can we amend the subject line - we really don't need more grist for the 'cf is dead' mill ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329912 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Andy Matthews li...@commadelimited.com wrote: Actually Adobe has been saying since cf.Objective 2009 (I was there in person) that their user based has grown 300% over the last 5 years. From 250k users around 2004 to over 800k users in 2008/2009. In Australia?? Really?? It just seems like that unless you're personally looking for a CF job and can't find one, why do you care if other people think CF is dead? Because that was the reason my biggest client gave for going to DotNet last year. They told me that they had decided that ColdFusion was a dead product, Adobe was doing nothing with it, developers were hard to find. They said I was a nice guy but they had too many eggs in one basket and if anything happened to me they were very exposed. Therefore they were going to DotNet where they could find 50 developers tomorrow if they wanted them and Microsoft wasn't going to ignore the server market in the forseeable future. Thats what they said. I am not saying I agree. In fact we debated back and forth quite vigorously but in the end they went DotNet and my relationship with them ended. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329916 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
Sorry to hear that. I lost a large client a couple of years back, because the consultant they had bought in and were paying £700 a day to told them CF was built on .NET Companies are always making decisions like this. -Original Message- From: Mike Kear [mailto:afpwebwo...@gmail.com] Sent: 21 January 2010 14:46 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Andy Matthews li...@commadelimited.com wrote: Actually Adobe has been saying since cf.Objective 2009 (I was there in person) that their user based has grown 300% over the last 5 years. From 250k users around 2004 to over 800k users in 2008/2009. In Australia?? Really?? It just seems like that unless you're personally looking for a CF job and can't find one, why do you care if other people think CF is dead? Because that was the reason my biggest client gave for going to DotNet last year. They told me that they had decided that ColdFusion was a dead product, Adobe was doing nothing with it, developers were hard to find. They said I was a nice guy but they had too many eggs in one basket and if anything happened to me they were very exposed. Therefore they were going to DotNet where they could find 50 developers tomorrow if they wanted them and Microsoft wasn't going to ignore the server market in the forseeable future. Thats what they said. I am not saying I agree. In fact we debated back and forth quite vigorously but in the end they went DotNet and my relationship with them ended. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329917 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
Gotcha. And I'm guessing that Adobe's numbers are worldwide, and not in one geographic region. -Original Message- From: Mike Kear [mailto:afpwebwo...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 8:46 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Andy Matthews li...@commadelimited.com wrote: Actually Adobe has been saying since cf.Objective 2009 (I was there in person) that their user based has grown 300% over the last 5 years. From 250k users around 2004 to over 800k users in 2008/2009. In Australia?? Really?? It just seems like that unless you're personally looking for a CF job and can't find one, why do you care if other people think CF is dead? Because that was the reason my biggest client gave for going to DotNet last year. They told me that they had decided that ColdFusion was a dead product, Adobe was doing nothing with it, developers were hard to find. They said I was a nice guy but they had too many eggs in one basket and if anything happened to me they were very exposed. Therefore they were going to DotNet where they could find 50 developers tomorrow if they wanted them and Microsoft wasn't going to ignore the server market in the forseeable future. Thats what they said. I am not saying I agree. In fact we debated back and forth quite vigorously but in the end they went DotNet and my relationship with them ended. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329918 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
it would be interesting to see the figures by region/country 2010/1/21 Andy Matthews li...@commadelimited.com Gotcha. And I'm guessing that Adobe's numbers are worldwide, and not in one geographic region. -Original Message- From: Mike Kear [mailto:afpwebwo...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 8:46 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Andy Matthews li...@commadelimited.com wrote: Actually Adobe has been saying since cf.Objective 2009 (I was there in person) that their user based has grown 300% over the last 5 years. From 250k users around 2004 to over 800k users in 2008/2009. In Australia?? Really?? It just seems like that unless you're personally looking for a CF job and can't find one, why do you care if other people think CF is dead? Because that was the reason my biggest client gave for going to DotNet last year. They told me that they had decided that ColdFusion was a dead product, Adobe was doing nothing with it, developers were hard to find. They said I was a nice guy but they had too many eggs in one basket and if anything happened to me they were very exposed. Therefore they were going to DotNet where they could find 50 developers tomorrow if they wanted them and Microsoft wasn't going to ignore the server market in the forseeable future. Thats what they said. I am not saying I agree. In fact we debated back and forth quite vigorously but in the end they went DotNet and my relationship with them ended. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329921 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
No Mike, you're wrong the server customer base has increased over the last year by xx% The last time I looked at Adobe's overall sales figures, CF sales were up. Their overall sales figures are available in their public statements. No Mike, we presented at a .Net conference in Sydney last July, and at a .php conference in Melbourne in August ... etc How many .NET conferences are there? If they're fully run by MS, what makes you think they'd be let in the door? Just for kicks, I searched for PHP conferences in Sydney and Melbourne, and found none. I did find an open-source conference in Melbourne which had PHP topics, but I don't think CF would be an appropriate topic at an open-source conference, since, you know, it's closed-source. Nothing from Adobe. I might be wrong - I hope I am, but Adobe didnt know much about what to do with a server product when they bought Macromedia, That's funny, because the last time I remember seeing a sentence very similar, except it had Macromedia where you have Adobe, and Allaire where you have Macromedia. I got the feeling that Adobe people think it's something they got stuck with when they bought Macromedia for what they REALLY wanted - Flash and Dreamweaver. Again, Adobe people != Adobe. Certainly in Australia i have yet to hear of anyone at Adobe who is annoyed because I am painting them in a bad light that's undeserved. I for one am grateful that Adobe people don't spend all day responding to this sort of thing. Either prove me wrong someone, or stop bashing me for being critical and for gods sake lets poke someone in the ribs who's in a position to DO SOMETHING about it! You know who's in a position to DO SOMETHING? It's you, not Adobe. You're not satisfied with how Adobe markets their product? Market your services with that product! You're not satisfied with their presence in user groups and conferences? Get in those user groups and conferences yourself! It's developers, not salesmen, who are ultimately responsible for the success or failure of a programming product. Nobody had heard of CF when Steve Drucker and I started the very first CF user group, in Washington DC, in 1993 if I recall correctly. We ran monthly meetings, demoed neat applications, and our attendance started with a handful of people, and grew to hundreds. Now, CF is a very strong presence within the DC metro market, and probably the best place in the world for CF jobs. We did our best to popularize the product. Allaire, Macromedia, Adobe - whoever owns the product - can't do that sort of thing. It takes developers. Or, as Steve Ballmer once put it, Developers, developers, DEVELOPERS! Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or o ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329934 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
I was going to stay away from this thread at all costsbut I read this: Nothing from Adobe. I might be wrong - I hope I am, but Adobe didnt know much about what to do with a server product when they bought Macromedia, That's funny, because the last time I remember seeing a sentence very similar, except it had Macromedia where you have Adobe, and Allaire where you have Macromedia. I wrote about this deep in the first post on my blog. It wasn't UNTIL Adobe took over ColdFusion that I felt really good about ColdFusions future. This is what I wrote. *snip* from May of 2008 ...Then came the Macromedia years. I risk offending a few people here, but I really didn't like Macromedia. I felt they didn't know what to do with ColdFusion. I kept coding in CFML, but I dropped out of the ColdFusion Development Community. I had no desire to help Macromedia out in any way. When Adobe bought up Macromedia I was worried at first, but within a week I realized it was a good thing. Adobe has long been the world leader in print media. They had been trying to break into the world of online media and had few successes. They did have PDF, but not much else. I knew right away that Adobe was going to use ColdFusion to become the world leader in online media. With the release of ColdFusion 8 we saw that is exactly what Adobe intends to do. This new direction for ColdFusion has left me feeling better and thus I have decided to slowly become more involved in the ColdFusion community. */snip* (full post at http://www.trunkful.com/page.cfm/About if you're really interested. ) And I have to say I still feel this way and even more so now that ColdFusion 9 is here. I believe ColdFusion is here to stay and grow no mater how much FUD certain people try to (and seem to enjoy) spreading. /soapbox Wil Genovese One man with courage makes a majority. -Andrew Jackson A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329943 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: You know who's in a position to DO SOMETHING? It's you, not Adobe. You're not satisfied with how Adobe markets their product? Market your services with that product! You're not satisfied with their presence in user groups and conferences? Get in those user groups and conferences yourself! It's developers, not salesmen, who are ultimately responsible for the success or failure of a programming product. This is why I get frustrated with some CFers who bemoan the lack of corporate marketing: all of the competing technologies have no corporate marketing - it's all about developer community. Except .NET of course - but .NET is only one of the successful, hot techs out there that certain CFers claim are eating CF's business. You could also argue Sun promotes Java (along with a few other big corporates). The point is that PHP, Ruby/Rails, etc - all the 'hot' techs that are free and open source - those are promoted by their communities. Allaire, Macromedia, Adobe - whoever owns the product - can't do that sort of thing. It takes developers. Or, as Steve Ballmer once put it, Developers, developers, DEVELOPERS! Amen! -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies US -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329949 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 4:43 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: No Mike, you're wrong the server customer base has increased over the last year by xx% The last time I looked at Adobe's overall sales figures, CF sales were up. Their overall sales figures are available in their public statements. In Australia?Are they? Does anyone outside Adobe know? No Mike, we presented at a .Net conference in Sydney last July, and at a .php conference in Melbourne in August ... etc How many .NET conferences are there? If they're fully run by MS, what makes you think they'd be let in the door? I dont know. MS were at WebDU. I went to a presentation of theirs. Got a complete copy of SQLServer2005 from there. Why wouldn't CF try to sell to people who havent already bought the product? THATS WHAT SALES PEOPLE DO! I got the feeling that Adobe people think it's something they got stuck with when they bought Macromedia for what they REALLY wanted - Flash and Dreamweaver. Again, Adobe people != Adobe. Actually Dave, Adobe people = = Adobe. You are 100% wrong in that statement. Certainly in Australia i have yet to hear of anyone at Adobe who is annoyed because I am painting them in a bad light that's undeserved. I for one am grateful that Adobe people don't spend all day responding to this sort of thing. I'd just like to know we aren't building our businesses here in Sydney in an Adobe wilderness. Either prove me wrong someone, or stop bashing me for being critical and for gods sake lets poke someone in the ribs who's in a position to DO SOMETHING about it! You know who's in a position to DO SOMETHING? It's you, not Adobe. You're not satisfied with how Adobe markets their product? Market your services with that product! You're not satisfied with their presence in user groups and conferences? Get in those user groups and conferences yourself! It's developers, not salesmen, who are ultimately responsible for the success or failure of a programming product. Nobody had heard of CF when Steve Drucker and I started the very first CF user group, in Washington DC, in 1993 if I recall correctly. We ran monthly meetings, demoed neat applications, and our attendance started with a handful of people, and grew to hundreds. Now, CF is a very strong presence within the DC metro market, and probably the best place in the world for CF jobs. We did our best to popularize the product. Allaire, Macromedia, Adobe - whoever owns the product - can't do that sort of thing. It takes developers. Or, as Steve Ballmer once put it, Developers, developers, DEVELOPERS! Steve Ballmer. Oh yea.Actually Steve Ballmer doesnt put DEVELOPERS in front line sales positions. Those guys are called SALES people. I knew it wouldnt be long before someone told me this was all my fault. I run a tiny development business. I havent sat idly by and waited for the world to push dollars into my hand. As I said in the outset, if I hadnt gone out and hustled my own opportunities I'd have starved. I just wish I wasnt doing it all alone. If you're a Toyota dealer you dont do it alone. You get backup support from the manufacturer. If you're a Dulux Paint dealer you dont do it alone. You get backup support from the manufacturer. If you're a Microsoft reseller you dont do it alone. You get FLOODED with support from the manufacturer. If you're a McDonalds franchisee you dont do it alone. You get backup support from the manufacturer. If you're an Adobe dealer/reseller/developer in Australia you get nothing, not even brochures. You dont get any support advertising appearing in trade mags. You dont get any help developing sales strategy unless you are prepared to tell a competitor about it all, because the only thing they'll do to help is refer you to a competitor. If you want to sell LiveCycle you get told to piss off. If you need help to sell server products you get told to stop being such a crybaby and get off your ass. All of those things have happened to me personally while trying to make business for Adobe. -- Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/m ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329967 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
OK, you have just officially made me laugh so hard that my side hurts. Since when does Adobe have franchise agreements? Since when do people/companies pay Adobe hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees for which Adobe agrees to market products and/or services for them? Why do so many damn people in this world want every effen thing for free? WHY?!?!?! On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Mike Kear afpwebwo...@gmail.com wrote: If you're a Toyota dealer you dont do it alone. You get backup support from the manufacturer. If you're a Dulux Paint dealer you dont do it alone. You get backup support from the manufacturer. If you're a Microsoft reseller you dont do it alone. You get FLOODED with support from the manufacturer. If you're a McDonalds franchisee you dont do it alone. You get backup support from the manufacturer. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329968 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
You specifically compared Adobe's management of ColdFusion marketing and sales efforts to those of Toyota on behalf of their dealers. Toyota dealers can only become a Toyota dealer by paying massive franchise fees up front and maintaining those payments year after year, as well as adhering to a very strict set of guidelines, rules and mandates established by Toyota. You are not paying franchise fees to Adobe. You are not adhering to anything of theirs. Instead you are once again bitching publicly about Adobe's lack of effort to secure you a job and/or business. You bitch about this even though you pay them **nothing**. That, sir, proves that you absolutely _are_ in search of a free ride. I am certainly not the one being an idiot here. I might be rude or inconsiderate for having a damn good laugh at the expense of your whiny rants, but that definitely does not qualify as being idiotic. On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Mike Kear afpwebwo...@gmail.com wrote: Matt you're being an idiot. I have deliberately AVOIDED mentioning dollars because i DIDNT want people thinking i want a free ride. I dont. I never said so and you're just being a prick by suggesting i did. Mike On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 7:48 AM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.com wrote: OK, you have just officially made me laugh so hard that my side hurts. Since when does Adobe have franchise agreements? Since when do people/companies pay Adobe hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees for which Adobe agrees to market products and/or services for them? Why do so many damn people in this world want every effen thing for free? WHY?!?!?! On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Mike Kear afpwebwo...@gmail.com wrote: If you're a Toyota dealer you dont do it alone. You get backup support from the manufacturer. If you're a Dulux Paint dealer you dont do it alone. You get backup support from the manufacturer. If you're a Microsoft reseller you dont do it alone. You get FLOODED with support from the manufacturer. If you're a McDonalds franchisee you dont do it alone. You get backup support from the manufacturer. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329973 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
Speaking about them not wanting to have you do any selling of Lifecycle, Yeah.. Most likely the attitude. I wouldn't want him selling anything for my company either. On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Mike Kear afpwebwo...@gmail.com wrote: Matt you're being an idiot. I have deliberately AVOIDED mentioning dollars because i DIDNT want people thinking i want a free ride. I dont. I never said so and you're just being a prick by suggesting i ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329974 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs in Australia
In Australia? Are they? Does anyone outside Adobe know? I don't know about Australia. But that's entirely irrelevant to whether CF is on its last legs. Actually Dave, Adobe people = = Adobe. You are 100% wrong in that statement. Really? So if I grab any one of the thousands of Adobe employees, they'll all have the same opinion and vision for the company that the board of directors does? If I talk to someone on, say, the Photoshop team, they won't see things a bit differently from someone else on the Acrobat team? Everyone there will have the same perspective? Steve Ballmer. Oh yea. Actually Steve Ballmer doesnt put DEVELOPERS in front line sales positions. Those guys are called SALES people. I think you missed the point. Sales people, by themselves, cannot make a product succeed or fail. It wasn't advertising and marketing that made CF as successful as it is, it was that developers embraced it. I knew it wouldnt be long before someone told me this was all my fault. I run a tiny development business. I havent sat idly by and waited for the world to push dollars into my hand. As I said in the outset, if I hadnt gone out and hustled my own opportunities I'd have starved. I just wish I wasnt doing it all alone. No one is blaming you for, well, anything except starting another in a long list of CF is dying threads. But the amount of effort you've put into this thread would have been better spent on marketing yourself as a CF solution developer - doing a user group presentation. How many have you done lately? If you're a Toyota dealer you dont do it alone. You get backup support from the manufacturer. If you're a Dulux Paint dealer you dont do it alone. You get backup support from the manufacturer. If you're a Microsoft reseller you dont do it alone. You get FLOODED with support from the manufacturer. If you're a McDonalds franchisee you dont do it alone. You get backup support from the manufacturer. We're Adobe and Microsoft partners, and I don't see the vast difference that you see. But in any case, the two really aren't comparable, as nearly all Microsoft products exist to help sell Windows and Office. Adobe doesn't really have that sort of underlying base product to fall back on. As for the rest of your examples, let's just say that selling cars, paint and hamburgers is different from selling software. If you can't see the difference, I honestly don't know where to start. If you're an Adobe dealer/reseller/developer in Australia you get nothing, not even brochures. You dont get any support advertising appearing in trade mags. You dont get any help developing sales strategy unless you are prepared to tell a competitor about it all, because the only thing they'll do to help is refer you to a competitor. If you want to sell LiveCycle you get told to piss off. If you need help to sell server products you get told to stop being such a crybaby and get off your ass. All of those things have happened to me personally while trying to make business for Adobe. Well, I don't know anything about how things are in Australia. But I can tell you that here in the US, Adobe helps those resellers who help themselves. I don't know any companies that would help my company develop a sales strategy. That's our job. Having done that, we might approach them for funding for specific marketing events, and historically that's worked out pretty well. As for LiveCycle, yeah, they pretty much want you to piss off, because it's INSANELY COMPLICATED and EXPENSIVE. Unless you're a big company, or you specialize in LiveCycle development, chances are you're not going to be qualified to sell it. And every LiveCycle sale is a big sale, because it's such an expensive product. So they sell it themselves. We do LiveCycle training and consulting, but we don't sell it ourselves either. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training c ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329975 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
