Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

More info – this is a good read:
http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Guide-to-VRLA-Batteries-1927.pdf

More thoughts on alternators. When you look at a “big” alternator, look at the 
degraded output while hot, not the cold output. Then look at the output at your 
cruising and idle RPMs, not the max RPM the alternator is capable of. You may 
well find out the 120 amp alternator is derated to 90-100 when hot and only 
doing 80 at your cruise RPM and 40 (or less) at idle. Your big gain may be 
putting out much more than your stock alternator at lower RPMs, not in the max 
possible output. You should also hopefully gain a more robust unit. The usual 
progression we had back in the day was customer bought big batteries and then 
came back for a 3 stage regulator, then the burned out their stock alternator 
and came back again for a better alternator to go with the new batteries and 
new regulator. Any auto-derived alternator was originally designed for smallish 
batteries with thin plates that charge very fast on startup and taper off 
quickly, not putting out max output for hours on end.

Joe
Coquina

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Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Even if the car battery is dead and I push start the car it doesn’t severely 
overcharge itself. The battery chemistry controls the charge rate and it only 
can physically draw so much power.
Take a look here:
http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Deka-Dominator-Gel-Marine_RV-Flyer-0909.pdf

You can see a graph of charging current accepted by various sized batteries at 
their suggested constant charging voltage. A 4D gel battery that is about 190 
AH starts out at 55 amps or so. This is true with a charging source capable of 
100 amps or 1000 or 100,000. You can try to force 100 amps into a battery that 
is accepting 50 amps at its correct charge voltage. You CAN turn the voltage up 
until 100 amps goes in. It won’t be transferred into stored energy though if it 
exceeds max %C or max voltage limits, it will damage the battery in one way or 
another by excess heat and gassing, perhaps permanently. Kind of like 
overdriving speakers, the power is not doing useful work any longer. But what 
you CAN do with batteries at least is charge higher than the suggested float 
voltage – within limits of the battery capacity – to force more current in when 
they are low and back off when they fill up. You could call Dekka and ask what 
the max allowable charge current is for that 4D and what the max voltage is at 
your running temperature and set the regulator appropriately.

Joe
Coquina
BTW – my car is set to 13.9 volts. It actually could use a gel and not kill it. 
No idea why, it came that way. OTOH an airplane I was flying once got way over 
28 volts and when I went to check the batteries the top blew off one and 
sprayed acid all over. I’d be blind if I had taken my glasses off, I got some 
right on the lenses.

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:32 AM
To: C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

Joe,

Your car battery does not "explode" (or more appropriately "get damaged") 
because it is not very deeply discharged between cycles.  The battery voltage 
quickly reaches 14.4v (because that is what car regulators are set at) and then 
maintains 14.4v by varying the current depending on the electrical loads.  The 
regulator leaves bulk charge mode quickly (if it even ever begins) and then 
reduces current.

Besides, exploding isn't really the issue.  I believe that the issue is 
excessive electrolysis and localized boiling despite overall low bulk battery 
temperature.  In a properly maintained wet-cell the owner would ensure that 
this lost water was made up for.  If it were to happen more often than normal 
or predicted by the manufacturer, then even an attentive owner might not detect 
a low level before damage was done.  In the case of AGM and gel-cells this 
water CANNOT be replaced and the effects are perminent.

Yes a good regulator can be set to reduce output (ironically this seems to be 
in contradiction to the idea of having a higher output alternator to charge 
faster) and yes it can include a temperature detection.  Unfortunately 
proximity of the batteries to the regulator can make temperature monitoring a 
challenge.

Ultimately, my original point was that while there are wide-ish margins 
associated with electrical system design, simply getting a high output 
alternator can cause more problems than they solve and the disadvantages need 
to be considered.  Getting AGM or gell cells are popular but not without their 
disadvantages as well.

In a sort of analogous way, I'm currently working on a speaker project.  In 
selecting components, I'm finding speakers with options of between 50w and 90w 
(my load - the analog of batteries).  Then I realize I'm only driving them with 
a 20w OEM amp (my source - the analog of a low output alternator).  Do the new 
speakers have added advantages besides higher power rating - yes.  Will they be 
louder for the same volume setting - maybe but that is a function of their 
efficiency not their power rating.  Similary, I could replace the amp but the 
OEM speakers would not accept the added power.  Does this mean that the OEM 
speakers will automatically be blown - no because at low and even reasonable 
volume I'm not over powering the original rating.  Although, the high power amp 
does create the ability and increased chance of accidentally overpowering the 
speakers.  Does it mean that even the OEM speakers will be loader (for the same 
volume setting) - probably, but then I'll turn the volume down to prevent 
damaging my ears and ultimately the speakers.

Josh


On Oct 17, 2017 10:35 AM, "Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List" 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Batteries have an acceptance curve. You can see a plot of amps absorbed at a 
given discharge state and charge voltage that assume

Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

ine pulleys that make it hard to get
any decent output at low RPMs.



Joe

Coquina



* none of this applies to Lithium batteries. You can blow them up real good
without a specialized battery management system



*From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com
<cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>] *On Behalf Of *Josh Muckley via CnC-List
*Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 9:32 PM

*To:* C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
*Cc:* Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com>
*Subject:* Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator



Joe, the damage I was considering would be caused by exceeding the charge
rate for the bank size.  The conventional wisdom is that typical lead acid
batteries should not be charged at a rate greater than 25% of their
capacity.  A 100 AHr battery would be limited to 25 amps.  Isn't it
possible to exceed the charge rate with a good regulator?  Particularly
applicable when the battery is more deeply discharged.



 All of the 3 and 4 stage regulators I've ever seen will ramp up to max
amps and hold there until ~14.6 volts is reached (80% full - end of bulk
charge) at which time the voltage will be held constant at ~14.6v as the
amps are reduced.  Once the amps lower to ~2amps the regulator shifts to
float mode and lowers the voltage to ~13.3v and holds it indefinitely.



As an example lets say that you are using a 100 amp alternator and
regulator to charge a 100AHr battery bank that has been discharged to 50%
capacity.  Isn't it likely that the charge current will ramp to 100 amps?
Or at least greater than 25 amps?  What other regulator function would
prevent this from happening?  I suppose battery temperature could input to
the alternator so as to reduce charge current.  Though, I'm not sure that
battery temperature responds quickly enough to prevent early over current
damage, only overcurrent damage as a result of longer term charging current
which has been applied long enough to raise temperature to the threshold.



Josh



___

The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up again.
October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a small
contribution to help keep this list running.  Use PayPal to send
contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All contributions are greatly appreciated!
___

The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up again.  
October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a small 
contribution to help keep this list running.  Use PayPal to send contribution 
--   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Batteries have an acceptance curve. You can see a plot of amps absorbed at a 
given discharge state and charge voltage that assume that the capacity of the 
charging source is infinite. The idea that the batteries absorb whatever the 
alternator can produce is a common one, even though it is wrong. For one 
example, my car has a 120 amp alternator and a 50 AH wet cell battery. The 
battery does not explode every time I start the car ☺
It is commonly stated that wet cells charge at 0.25C max and gel types are 0.5C 
max. This is largely due to the chemistry, the wet cell batteries *restrict 
themselves* to 0.25C. If you are charging the batteries too hard, there are a 
few ways to fix it. One is a temperature sensor on the battery. If excess 
charging heats the battery, the voltage will back off. Another is a 
sophisticated regulator that can control amp output as well as voltage. Back in 
the day we used this feature to save belts and drag on the engine more so than 
for battery issues. The third way is adjusting the voltage setpoints. In my 
experience too much charging is the last problem you’ll ever have on a 
sailboat, but say you did. Your 220 amp golf cart wet cell bank is my some 
miracle accepting 140 amps instead of the desired 55 amps and somehow the temp 
sensor is not backing it off or you don’t have a temp sensor. Just do a test 
with low batteries and reduce the set point on the regulator to see the desired 
55 amp charge current. By far the bigger issue is set points too high for the 
float mode, so you leave the dock with full batteries and end up 
wrecking/boiling them with float voltage way too high.
The slow speed charging rate is also very important to sailboats. Figure out 
your pulley ratios and look at the output curves of various alternators. You 
may find the 180 amp version puts out no more than the 120 amp version at low 
engine speeds and you may find out no alternator is going to get you much 
running at idle at anchor. I went through a few alternators to settle on a 
Balmar 60 amp unit on my boat. It puts out a fair amount more than the 120 amp 
10si it replaced at low and medium RPMs, which is not a thing for powerboats 
but very much is for us. Those of us with Atomic 4s suffer from small engine 
pulleys that make it hard to get any decent output at low RPMs.

Joe
Coquina

* none of this applies to Lithium batteries. You can blow them up real good 
without a specialized battery management system

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley 
via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 9:32 PM
To: C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com<mailto:muckl...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

Joe, the damage I was considering would be caused by exceeding the charge rate 
for the bank size.  The conventional wisdom is that typical lead acid batteries 
should not be charged at a rate greater than 25% of their capacity.  A 100 AHr 
battery would be limited to 25 amps.  Isn't it possible to exceed the charge 
rate with a good regulator?  Particularly applicable when the battery is more 
deeply discharged.

 All of the 3 and 4 stage regulators I've ever seen will ramp up to max amps 
and hold there until ~14.6 volts is reached (80% full - end of bulk charge) at 
which time the voltage will be held constant at ~14.6v as the amps are reduced. 
 Once the amps lower to ~2amps the regulator shifts to float mode and lowers 
the voltage to ~13.3v and holds it indefinitely.

As an example lets say that you are using a 100 amp alternator and regulator to 
charge a 100AHr battery bank that has been discharged to 50% capacity.  Isn't 
it likely that the charge current will ramp to 100 amps?  Or at least greater 
than 25 amps?  What other regulator function would prevent this from happening? 
 I suppose battery temperature could input to the alternator so as to reduce 
charge current.  Though, I'm not sure that battery temperature responds quickly 
enough to prevent early over current damage, only overcurrent damage as a 
result of longer term charging current which has been applied long enough to 
raise temperature to the threshold.

Josh

___

The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up again.  
October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a small 
contribution to help keep this list running.  Use PayPal to send contribution 
--   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[coltrek via CnC-List]

This is all really good information, and I wished that I had read and digested 
it a year or so ago. Those are exactly the voltages I am seeing on mine now, 
and I'm glad to know that is just what it is supposed to do.   I mentioned 
something earlier this summer about burning a couple of alternator  belts up. 
Well, I have 125 amp Balmer alternator, and the Balmar smart regulator. And I 
think I had it set to 95% charge, which was as I recall recommended on their 
chart. But, for some reason that sucker was charging its little heart out, and 
burning belts up like crazy. I think something was wrong with my heart 
interface because I later discovered the inverter was stuck on. That was 
another problem. Later, I reset the heart back to factory defaults, and it 
started working perfectly again. This time, I never made any adjustments to it 
or set the battery amp hours or anything. It's working perfectly, so I'm 
letting sleeping dogs lie. However, the ballmart rep recommended cutting it 
down to 65% charge on the smart regulator, and I haven't felt any need to 
change that since them. Although, I did get the alternator temperature 
regulator, tied into the smart regulator.  Once you go through one of these 
things in strange ports, you never want experience  them again.


Regards,
Bill ColemanC 39

 Original message 
From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Date: 10/16/17  21:32  (GMT-05:00) 
To: C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator 

Joe, the damage I was considering would be caused by exceeding the charge rate 
for the bank size.  The conventional wisdom is that typical lead acid batteries 
should not be charged at a rate greater than 25% of their capacity.  A 100 AHr 
battery would be limited to 25 amps.  Isn't it possible to exceed the charge 
rate with a good regulator?  Particularly applicable when the battery is more 
deeply discharged.
 All of the 3 and 4 stage regulators I've ever seen will ramp up to max amps 
and hold there until ~14.6 volts is reached (80% full - end of bulk charge) at 
which time the voltage will be held constant at ~14.6v as the amps are reduced. 
 Once the amps lower to ~2amps the regulator shifts to float mode and lowers 
the voltage to ~13.3v and holds it indefinitely.
As an example lets say that you are using a 100 amp alternator and regulator to 
charge a 100AHr battery bank that has been discharged to 50% capacity.  Isn't 
it likely that the charge current will ramp to 100 amps?  Or at least greater 
than 25 amps?  What other regulator function would prevent this from happening? 
 I suppose battery temperature could input to the alternator so as to reduce 
charge current.  Though, I'm not sure that battery temperature responds quickly 
enough to prevent early over current damage, only overcurrent damage as a 
result of longer term charging current which has been applied long enough to 
raise temperature to the threshold.
Josh 

On Oct 16, 2017 3:01 PM, "Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List" 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:








Wrecking batteries with a big alternator is why you need a good regulator. If 
you are counting on the alternator itself to just be unable to do any damage 
because
 it can’t, you are taking a big risk or and have a very suboptimal charging 
setup.
For an extreme example, given a decent regulator, a 1000 amp alternator should 
do no harm and you can very much destroy batteries with a 35 amp alternator.
 I once worked on a boat whose genset had a 35 amp alternator set to 16 volts. 
The owner was buying several batteries a year and didn’t know why.
 
Joe
Coquina
 
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]
On Behalf Of Josh Muckley via CnC-List

Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 2:50 PM

To: C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>

Cc: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator
 

Not only will they not absorb the charge quickly enough, exceeding the charge 
rate will boil the batteries more than staying within the charging guidelines.  
An alternator that is too big for the bank will seriously risk damaging the 
batteries.

 


Larger alternators under full load will also strain the v-belt.  Additional 
tention will need to be applied to prevent the belt from slipping.  The 
additional tension puts additional side loads on the crankshaft end bearing.  


 


Lets also remember that full output is only achieved under full RPM.  Many 
people enjoy the idea of idling along or running the engine for a few hours in 
neutral.  Not only does this not achieve the full rated output of the 
alternator but
 it can also coke up the exhaust elbow and glaze the cylinders.  Diesel engines 
should be run at 80% as often as possible and for as long as possible.

 


Josh 




 

On Oct 16, 2017 2:19 PM, "Joel Aronson via CnC-List"

Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Joe, the damage I was considering would be caused by exceeding the charge
rate for the bank size.  The conventional wisdom is that typical lead acid
batteries should not be charged at a rate greater than 25% of their
capacity.  A 100 AHr battery would be limited to 25 amps.  Isn't it
possible to exceed the charge rate with a good regulator?  Particularly
applicable when the battery is more deeply discharged.

 All of the 3 and 4 stage regulators I've ever seen will ramp up to max
amps and hold there until ~14.6 volts is reached (80% full - end of bulk
charge) at which time the voltage will be held constant at ~14.6v as the
amps are reduced.  Once the amps lower to ~2amps the regulator shifts to
float mode and lowers the voltage to ~13.3v and holds it indefinitely.

As an example lets say that you are using a 100 amp alternator and
regulator to charge a 100AHr battery bank that has been discharged to 50%
capacity.  Isn't it likely that the charge current will ramp to 100 amps?
Or at least greater than 25 amps?  What other regulator function would
prevent this from happening?  I suppose battery temperature could input to
the alternator so as to reduce charge current.  Though, I'm not sure that
battery temperature responds quickly enough to prevent early over current
damage, only overcurrent damage as a result of longer term charging current
which has been applied long enough to raise temperature to the threshold.

Josh

On Oct 16, 2017 3:01 PM, "Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List" <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

Wrecking batteries with a big alternator is why you need a good regulator.
If you are counting on the alternator itself to just be unable to do any
damage because it can’t, you are taking a big risk or and have a very
suboptimal charging setup.

For an extreme example, given a decent regulator, a 1000 amp alternator
should do no harm and you can very much destroy batteries with a 35 amp
alternator. I once worked on a boat whose genset had a 35 amp alternator
set to 16 volts. The owner was buying several batteries a year and didn’t
know why.



Joe

Coquina



*From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh
Muckley via CnC-List
*Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 2:50 PM
*To:* C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
*Cc:* Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com>

*Subject:* Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator



Not only will they not absorb the charge quickly enough, exceeding the
charge rate will boil the batteries more than staying within the charging
guidelines.  An alternator that is too big for the bank will seriously risk
damaging the batteries.



Larger alternators under full load will also strain the v-belt.  Additional
tention will need to be applied to prevent the belt from slipping.  The
additional tension puts additional side loads on the crankshaft end
bearing.



Lets also remember that full output is only achieved under full RPM.  Many
people enjoy the idea of idling along or running the engine for a few hours
in neutral.  Not only does this not achieve the full rated output of the
alternator but it can also coke up the exhaust elbow and glaze the
cylinders.  Diesel engines should be run at 80% as often as possible and
for as long as possible.



Josh



On Oct 16, 2017 2:19 PM, "Joel Aronson via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:

With a small battery bank you will not benefit from the larger alternator.
The batteries can't absorb a charge that quickly.



Joel



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On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 1:25 PM, David via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:

Let me expound a bit on alternators and engine size.   When replaced my
dumb alternator with a Balmar set-up (alternator, smart Charger, digital
Duo etc ) on my 33 hp diesel Balmar recommended no more than the 80 amp
because of the loss of HP which I could ill afford.



If you have HP to spare...go for it.   If not reconsider.





1981 40-2

David F. Risch

(401) 419-4650 (cell)


--

*From:* CnC-List <cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com> on behalf of Josh Muckley
via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
*Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 12:47 PM
*To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
*Cc:* Josh Muckley
*Subject:* Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator



Paul, Thanks for these more accurate "ratings".  It definitely helps to
give an answer to the question of "what does good look like?"  I have never
saught out actual ratings for refrigerator loads and I've never gotten a
AHr meter installed - besides the plethora of variables which make single
point AHr usage almost impossible to  determine.  It seemed like nobody
else had provided a frame of reference besides examples 

Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Wrecking batteries with a big alternator is why you need a good regulator. If 
you are counting on the alternator itself to just be unable to do any damage 
because it can’t, you are taking a big risk or and have a very suboptimal 
charging setup.
For an extreme example, given a decent regulator, a 1000 amp alternator should 
do no harm and you can very much destroy batteries with a 35 amp alternator. I 
once worked on a boat whose genset had a 35 amp alternator set to 16 volts. The 
owner was buying several batteries a year and didn’t know why.

Joe
Coquina

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley 
via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 2:50 PM
To: C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

Not only will they not absorb the charge quickly enough, exceeding the charge 
rate will boil the batteries more than staying within the charging guidelines.  
An alternator that is too big for the bank will seriously risk damaging the 
batteries.

Larger alternators under full load will also strain the v-belt.  Additional 
tention will need to be applied to prevent the belt from slipping.  The 
additional tension puts additional side loads on the crankshaft end bearing.

Lets also remember that full output is only achieved under full RPM.  Many 
people enjoy the idea of idling along or running the engine for a few hours in 
neutral.  Not only does this not achieve the full rated output of the 
alternator but it can also coke up the exhaust elbow and glaze the cylinders.  
Diesel engines should be run at 80% as often as possible and for as long as 
possible.

Josh

On Oct 16, 2017 2:19 PM, "Joel Aronson via CnC-List" 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
With a small battery bank you will not benefit from the larger alternator.  The 
batteries can't absorb a charge that quickly.

Joel

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On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 1:25 PM, David via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Let me expound a bit on alternators and engine size.   When replaced my dumb 
alternator with a Balmar set-up (alternator, smart Charger, digital Duo etc ) 
on my 33 hp diesel Balmar recommended no more than the 80 amp because of the 
loss of HP which I could ill afford.



If you have HP to spare...go for it.   If not reconsider.





1981 40-2

David F. Risch

(401) 419-4650<tel:(401)%20419-4650> (cell)


From: CnC-List 
<cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> on behalf 
of Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 12:47 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Josh Muckley
Subject: Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

Paul, Thanks for these more accurate "ratings".  It definitely helps to give an 
answer to the question of "what does good look like?"  I have never saught out 
actual ratings for refrigerator loads and I've never gotten a AHr meter 
installed - besides the plethora of variables which make single point AHr usage 
almost impossible to  determine.  It seemed like nobody else had provided a 
frame of reference besides examples of their own setup and I was kinda trying 
to describe a worst case numbers scenario to provide an upper boundary to the 
project.  Your numbers bring further clarity by providing a lower boundary.

You and other listers are absolutely correct that adding insulation is the best 
way to reduce refrigerator AHr load.

Thanks,
Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD



On Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 9:20 AM Dreuge via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

If you have a refrigeration load of 120AH/day, don’t waist money on increasing 
battery and charging capacity.

Spend a little cash on better insulation or rebuild your box with more and 
better insulation.   It is not unreasonable to shoot for a refrigeration load 
under 30AH/day.  Just have a look at Wally’s Stella Blue page titled “Marine 
refrigeration and freezer on 22AH/day”(I recall he has a  Frigoboat unit with 
keel cooler).   Technautics claim that their CoolBlue system consumes “24AH/Day 
for a 7 cubic foot fridge/freezer with R-30” and “operates at ambient 
temperatures up to 120F without a loss in system efficiency.”   Even the 
Isotherm claims their ASU SP3751 can achieve loads under 20AH/day.   Now making 
ice or cooling down warm beer on a r

Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Not only will they not absorb the charge quickly enough, exceeding the
charge rate will boil the batteries more than staying within the charging
guidelines.  An alternator that is too big for the bank will seriously risk
damaging the batteries.

Larger alternators under full load will also strain the v-belt.  Additional
tention will need to be applied to prevent the belt from slipping.  The
additional tension puts additional side loads on the crankshaft end
bearing.

Lets also remember that full output is only achieved under full RPM.  Many
people enjoy the idea of idling along or running the engine for a few hours
in neutral.  Not only does this not achieve the full rated output of the
alternator but it can also coke up the exhaust elbow and glaze the
cylinders.  Diesel engines should be run at 80% as often as possible and
for as long as possible.

Josh

On Oct 16, 2017 2:19 PM, "Joel Aronson via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:

With a small battery bank you will not benefit from the larger alternator.
The batteries can't absorb a charge that quickly.

Joel

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On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 1:25 PM, David via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:

> Let me expound a bit on alternators and engine size.   When replaced my
> dumb alternator with a Balmar set-up (alternator, smart Charger, digital
> Duo etc ) on my 33 hp diesel Balmar recommended no more than the 80 amp
> because of the loss of HP which I could ill afford.
>
>
> If you have HP to spare...go for it.   If not reconsider.
>
>
>
> 1981 40-2
>
> David F. Risch
>
> (401) 419-4650 (cell)
>
>
> --
> *From:* CnC-List <cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com> on behalf of Josh
> Muckley via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 12:47 PM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Josh Muckley
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator
>
> Paul, Thanks for these more accurate "ratings".  It definitely helps to
> give an answer to the question of "what does good look like?"  I have never
> saught out actual ratings for refrigerator loads and I've never gotten a
> AHr meter installed - besides the plethora of variables which make single
> point AHr usage almost impossible to  determine.  It seemed like nobody
> else had provided a frame of reference besides examples of their own setup
> and I was kinda trying to describe a worst case numbers scenario to provide
> an upper boundary to the project.  Your numbers bring further clarity by
> providing a lower boundary.
>
> You and other listers are absolutely correct that adding insulation is the
> best way to reduce refrigerator AHr load.
>
> Thanks,
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 9:20 AM Dreuge via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> If you have a refrigeration load of 120AH/day, don’t waist money on
>> increasing battery and charging capacity.
>>
>> Spend a little cash on better insulation or rebuild your box with more
>> and better insulation.   It is not unreasonable to shoot for a
>> refrigeration load under 30AH/day.  Just have a look at Wally’s Stella Blue
>> page titled “Marine refrigeration and freezer on 22AH/day”(I recall he has
>> a  Frigoboat unit with keel cooler).   Technautics claim that their
>> CoolBlue system consumes “24AH/Day for a 7 cubic foot fridge/freezer with
>> R-30” and “operates at ambient temperatures up to 120F without a loss in
>> system efficiency.”   Even the Isotherm claims their ASU SP3751 can achieve
>> loads under 20AH/day.   Now making ice or cooling down warm beer on a
>> really hot day will likely have higher load demands, but the message is
>> still the same.  Insulation is cheaper than batteries and lasts a lot
>> longer too.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Paul E.
>> 1981 C 38 Landfall
>> S/V Johanna Rose
>> Fort Walton Beach, FL
>>
>> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsvjohannarose.blogspot.com%2F=02%7C01%7Cdavidrisch75%40msn.com%7C174374313e324a76649608d514b5ae0e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636437692893291062=3Z6nZDYREvjXOkTwuBgdW3OftsiN%2B4KI22XBkKfEUaQ%3D=0>
>>
>> On Oct 14, 2017, at 2:02 PM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:
>>
>> Let

Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

With a small battery bank you will not benefit from the larger alternator.
The batteries can't absorb a charge that quickly.

Joel

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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 1:25 PM, David via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:

> Let me expound a bit on alternators and engine size.   When replaced my
> dumb alternator with a Balmar set-up (alternator, smart Charger, digital
> Duo etc ) on my 33 hp diesel Balmar recommended no more than the 80 amp
> because of the loss of HP which I could ill afford.
>
>
> If you have HP to spare...go for it.   If not reconsider.
>
>
>
> 1981 40-2
>
> David F. Risch
>
> (401) 419-4650 (cell)
>
>
> --
> *From:* CnC-List <cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com> on behalf of Josh
> Muckley via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 12:47 PM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Josh Muckley
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator
>
> Paul, Thanks for these more accurate "ratings".  It definitely helps to
> give an answer to the question of "what does good look like?"  I have never
> saught out actual ratings for refrigerator loads and I've never gotten a
> AHr meter installed - besides the plethora of variables which make single
> point AHr usage almost impossible to  determine.  It seemed like nobody
> else had provided a frame of reference besides examples of their own setup
> and I was kinda trying to describe a worst case numbers scenario to provide
> an upper boundary to the project.  Your numbers bring further clarity by
> providing a lower boundary.
>
> You and other listers are absolutely correct that adding insulation is the
> best way to reduce refrigerator AHr load.
>
> Thanks,
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 9:20 AM Dreuge via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> If you have a refrigeration load of 120AH/day, don’t waist money on
>> increasing battery and charging capacity.
>>
>> Spend a little cash on better insulation or rebuild your box with more
>> and better insulation.   It is not unreasonable to shoot for a
>> refrigeration load under 30AH/day.  Just have a look at Wally’s Stella Blue
>> page titled “Marine refrigeration and freezer on 22AH/day”(I recall he has
>> a  Frigoboat unit with keel cooler).   Technautics claim that their
>> CoolBlue system consumes “24AH/Day for a 7 cubic foot fridge/freezer with
>> R-30” and “operates at ambient temperatures up to 120F without a loss in
>> system efficiency.”   Even the Isotherm claims their ASU SP3751 can achieve
>> loads under 20AH/day.   Now making ice or cooling down warm beer on a
>> really hot day will likely have higher load demands, but the message is
>> still the same.  Insulation is cheaper than batteries and lasts a lot
>> longer too.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Paul E.
>> 1981 C 38 Landfall
>> S/V Johanna Rose
>> Fort Walton Beach, FL
>>
>> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsvjohannarose.blogspot.com%2F=02%7C01%7Cdavidrisch75%40msn.com%7C174374313e324a76649608d514b5ae0e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636437692893291062=3Z6nZDYREvjXOkTwuBgdW3OftsiN%2B4KI22XBkKfEUaQ%3D=0>
>>
>> On Oct 14, 2017, at 2:02 PM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:
>>
>> Lets consider some hypothetical numbers based on the rep's info.  If a
>> 100w
>> panel were %100 effective and operated for 8 hours, you would get 800w-hrs
>> of power per day.  800w divided by 12v = 67amp-hrs.  67 divided by 24hrs =
>> 2.8amps current draw on average.
>>
>> That kinda gives you a ball park for what type of loads you'll be facing.
>> Round up to 5amps/hr if you like for margin.  5 *24=120AHr per day.
>>
>> ___
>>
>> The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up
>> again.  October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a
>> small contribution to help keep this list running.  Use PayPal to send
>> contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.me%2Fstumurray=02%7C01%7Cdavidrisch75%40msn.com%7C174374313e324a76649608d514b5ae0e%7C84df9

Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[David via CnC-List]

Let me expound a bit on alternators and engine size.   When replaced my dumb 
alternator with a Balmar set-up (alternator, smart Charger, digital Duo etc ) 
on my 33 hp diesel Balmar recommended no more than the 80 amp because of the 
loss of HP which I could ill afford.


If you have HP to spare...go for it.   If not reconsider.



1981 40-2

David F. Risch

(401) 419-4650 (cell)



From: CnC-List <cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com> on behalf of Josh Muckley via 
CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 12:47 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Josh Muckley
Subject: Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

Paul, Thanks for these more accurate "ratings".  It definitely helps to give an 
answer to the question of "what does good look like?"  I have never saught out 
actual ratings for refrigerator loads and I've never gotten a AHr meter 
installed - besides the plethora of variables which make single point AHr usage 
almost impossible to  determine.  It seemed like nobody else had provided a 
frame of reference besides examples of their own setup and I was kinda trying 
to describe a worst case numbers scenario to provide an upper boundary to the 
project.  Your numbers bring further clarity by providing a lower boundary.

You and other listers are absolutely correct that adding insulation is the best 
way to reduce refrigerator AHr load.

Thanks,
Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD



On Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 9:20 AM Dreuge via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

If you have a refrigeration load of 120AH/day, don’t waist money on increasing 
battery and charging capacity.

Spend a little cash on better insulation or rebuild your box with more and 
better insulation.   It is not unreasonable to shoot for a refrigeration load 
under 30AH/day.  Just have a look at Wally’s Stella Blue page titled “Marine 
refrigeration and freezer on 22AH/day”(I recall he has a  Frigoboat unit with 
keel cooler).   Technautics claim that their CoolBlue system consumes “24AH/Day 
for a 7 cubic foot fridge/freezer with R-30” and “operates at ambient 
temperatures up to 120F without a loss in system efficiency.”   Even the 
Isotherm claims their ASU SP3751 can achieve loads under 20AH/day.   Now making 
ice or cooling down warm beer on a really hot day will likely have higher load 
demands, but the message is still the same.  Insulation is cheaper than 
batteries and lasts a lot longer too.



-
Paul E.
1981 C 38 Landfall
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsvjohannarose.blogspot.com%2F=02%7C01%7Cdavidrisch75%40msn.com%7C174374313e324a76649608d514b5ae0e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636437692893291062=3Z6nZDYREvjXOkTwuBgdW3OftsiN%2B4KI22XBkKfEUaQ%3D=0>

On Oct 14, 2017, at 2:02 PM, 
cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:

Lets consider some hypothetical numbers based on the rep's info.  If a 100w
panel were %100 effective and operated for 8 hours, you would get 800w-hrs
of power per day.  800w divided by 12v = 67amp-hrs.  67 divided by 24hrs =
2.8amps current draw on average.

That kinda gives you a ball park for what type of loads you'll be facing.
Round up to 5amps/hr if you like for margin.  5 *24=120AHr per day.
___

The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up again.  
October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a small 
contribution to help keep this list running.  Use PayPal to send contribution 
--   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.me%2Fstumurray=02%7C01%7Cdavidrisch75%40msn.com%7C174374313e324a76649608d514b5ae0e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636437692893291062=7kc%2FxlWlAIBdFI5P498w2ktOhdYBxaO1jBXoIheJqII%3D=0>

All contributions are greatly appreciated!
___

The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up again.  
October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a small 
contribution to help keep this list running.  Use PayPal to send contribution 
--   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Paul, Thanks for these more accurate "ratings".  It definitely helps to
give an answer to the question of "what does good look like?"  I have never
saught out actual ratings for refrigerator loads and I've never gotten a
AHr meter installed - besides the plethora of variables which make single
point AHr usage almost impossible to  determine.  It seemed like nobody
else had provided a frame of reference besides examples of their own setup
and I was kinda trying to describe a worst case numbers scenario to provide
an upper boundary to the project.  Your numbers bring further clarity by
providing a lower boundary.

You and other listers are absolutely correct that adding insulation is the
best way to reduce refrigerator AHr load.

Thanks,
Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD



On Mon, Oct 16, 2017, 9:20 AM Dreuge via CnC-List 
wrote:

>
> If you have a refrigeration load of 120AH/day, don’t waist money on
> increasing battery and charging capacity.
>
> Spend a little cash on better insulation or rebuild your box with more and
> better insulation.   It is not unreasonable to shoot for a refrigeration
> load under 30AH/day.  Just have a look at Wally’s Stella Blue page titled
> “Marine refrigeration and freezer on 22AH/day”(I recall he has a  Frigoboat
> unit with keel cooler).   Technautics claim that their CoolBlue system
> consumes “24AH/Day for a 7 cubic foot fridge/freezer with R-30” and
> “operates at ambient temperatures up to 120F without a loss in system
> efficiency.”   Even the Isotherm claims their ASU SP3751 can achieve loads
> under 20AH/day.   Now making ice or cooling down warm beer on a really hot
> day will likely have higher load demands, but the message is still the
> same.  Insulation is cheaper than batteries and lasts a lot longer too.
>
>
>
> -
> Paul E.
> 1981 C 38 Landfall
> S/V Johanna Rose
> Fort Walton Beach, FL
>
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
>
> On Oct 14, 2017, at 2:02 PM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:
>
> Lets consider some hypothetical numbers based on the rep's info.  If a 100w
> panel were %100 effective and operated for 8 hours, you would get 800w-hrs
> of power per day.  800w divided by 12v = 67amp-hrs.  67 divided by 24hrs =
> 2.8amps current draw on average.
>
> That kinda gives you a ball park for what type of loads you'll be facing.
> Round up to 5amps/hr if you like for margin.  5 *24=120AHr per day.
>
> ___
>
> The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up
> again.  October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a
> small contribution to help keep this list running.  Use PayPal to send
> contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
___

The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up again.  
October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a small 
contribution to help keep this list running.  Use PayPal to send contribution 
--   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

A little late to this thread, but here goes:
Batteries, alternators, and regulators are a SYSTEM and you need to pick them 
all to work together for best results.
A big alternator does you absolutely NO GOOD without a good temperature sensing 
3 stage regulator. With a stock fixed set point regulator, you’ll either be set 
too low and get very little benefit from a big alternator, or too high and ruin 
expensive batteries. The 3-stage regulator charges fast when batteries are low 
and then backs off when they get full. The temperature sensors allow the 
regulator to back off if either the batteries or the alternator overheat.
AGM batteries are far from a cure-all for battery issues and I personally do 
not like them.
Quick rundown of battery types:

1.  Car batteries. Die quickly in marine service, but they are cheap.

2.  Gel batteries. These were the first commonly available gelled 
electrolyte batteries. They can charge quickly and their self-discharge is very 
low. They don’t leak and don’t off-gas unless badly abused. They won’t leak 
acid if damaged. Their cycle life is good in deep cycle use. Their big drawback 
is over-charging kills them very fast. They have very specific charge voltages 
that must be used.

3.  AGM batteries. These are now the most common gelled/solid electrolyte 
batteries. They are popular for the same reasons gels are but without the 
sensitivity to high charge voltages. They can drop-in to boats, cars, and 
airplanes without a special regulator. Their drawbacks are significant compared 
to gels. The cycle-life of the commonly available AGMs is about half that of 
gels at the same discharge levels. They too have very specific charge 
requirements, but the opposite way that gels do. They *have to* be brought to 
100% charge every so often or they lose capacity quickly. Boats not on shore 
power and without significant solar will have a very hard time with this. 
Please note that neither gel nor AGM have any advantage over wet cells for 
amp-hours per cubic inch, i.e. a 4D gel, 4D agm, and 4D wet cell are all about 
the same capacity.

4.  Traction batteries. These batteries are designed for electric cars, 
electric golf carts, floor sweepers, fork lifts, and other types of electric 
vehicles. They are made for rough service in both senses, they routinely get 
discharged deeply and get banged around. The most commonly used size is the 6 
volt golf cart battery and they are – by a HUGE margin – the cheapest batteries 
if you analyze the cost per AH, even when deeply discharged. They can be boiled 
to death or sulfated to death if you really try, but they are pretty tolerant 
of charging issues over the short term. You can always add water or equalize. 
Their drawbacks are higher self-discharge (not a big deal anymore with solar 
IMHO) and the big one IMHO – they contain liquid and off-gas hydrogen and acid 
fumes. The safe mounting requirements for wet cells are much more stringent 
than gel types. Long story made short  - I had a wet cell crack and leak all 
the acid into the bilge during a hurricane and the smell did not add to the 
enjoyment of the trip at all. Oh – did I mention they are cheap? 220 AH for 
maybe $160 or so.

5.   Lithium-Ion batteries are far superior in all ways to any of the above 
if you have a large container of $100 bills to devote to the project.


Please keep in mind $1 of insulation in your icebox is probably worth $3 of 
electrical work ☺

Joe
Coquina



From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dreuge via 
CnC-List
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 9:20 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dreuge
Subject: Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator


If you have a refrigeration load of 120AH/day, don’t waist money on increasing 
battery and charging capacity.

Spend a little cash on better insulation or rebuild your box with more and 
better insulation.   It is not unreasonable to shoot for a refrigeration load 
under 30AH/day.  Just have a look at Wally’s Stella Blue page titled “Marine 
refrigeration and freezer on 22AH/day”(I recall he has a  Frigoboat unit with 
keel cooler).   Technautics claim that their CoolBlue system consumes “24AH/Day 
for a 7 cubic foot fridge/freezer with R-30” and “operates at ambient 
temperatures up to 120F without a loss in system efficiency.”   Even the 
Isotherm claims their ASU SP3751 can achieve loads under 20AH/day.   Now making 
ice or cooling down warm beer on a really hot day will likely have higher load 
demands, but the message is still the same.  Insulation is cheaper than 
batteries and lasts a lot longer too.



-
Paul E.
1981 C 38 Landfall
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

On Oct 14, 2017, at 2:02 PM, 
cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:

Lets consider some hypothetical numbers based on the rep's info.  If a 100w
panel were %100 effective and operated for 8 hours, you wou

Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[Dreuge via CnC-List]

If you have a refrigeration load of 120AH/day, don’t waist money on increasing 
battery and charging capacity.  

Spend a little cash on better insulation or rebuild your box with more and 
better insulation.   It is not unreasonable to shoot for a refrigeration load 
under 30AH/day.  Just have a look at Wally’s Stella Blue page titled “Marine 
refrigeration and freezer on 22AH/day”(I recall he has a  Frigoboat unit with 
keel cooler).   Technautics claim that their CoolBlue system consumes “24AH/Day 
for a 7 cubic foot fridge/freezer with R-30” and “operates at ambient 
temperatures up to 120F without a loss in system efficiency.”   Even the 
Isotherm claims their ASU SP3751 can achieve loads under 20AH/day.   Now making 
ice or cooling down warm beer on a really hot day will likely have higher load 
demands, but the message is still the same.  Insulation is cheaper than 
batteries and lasts a lot longer too.



-
Paul E.
1981 C 38 Landfall 
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

> On Oct 14, 2017, at 2:02 PM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:
> 
> Lets consider some hypothetical numbers based on the rep's info.  If a 100w
> panel were %100 effective and operated for 8 hours, you would get 800w-hrs
> of power per day.  800w divided by 12v = 67amp-hrs.  67 divided by 24hrs =
> 2.8amps current draw on average.
> 
> That kinda gives you a ball park for what type of loads you'll be facing.
> Round up to 5amps/hr if you like for margin.  5 *24=120AHr per day.  
___

The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up again.  
October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a small 
contribution to help keep this list running.  Use PayPal to send contribution 
--   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List]

I replaced my lead acid batteries with AGM batteries.  Two 6 volt batteries
in series for my house bank, and one 12 volt for my starting battery.  I
also replaced my 35 amp alternator with a Balmar (I think 120 amp) with
external regulator.  My engine is a Yanmar 3gmf, twenty hp, and I have not
had a problem with being under powered because of the higher rated
alternator.  When an alternator is rated at 120 amps, it doesn't mean that
it is always pumping out 120 amps.  That's the maximum it can put out based
on the load.  The load determines how much current is drawn.  I have
refrigeration, and I have replaced all of my lights (cabin and running
lights) with LED bulbs.

Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR

On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I talked to a Nova-Cool rep at one time who said that typically a 100w
> solar panel could keep one of their 12v refrigerator system operating
> indefinitely.  There are too many variables to say this absolutely but lets
> assume the rep was right.  The Nova-Cool system is based on a Danfoss
> compressor which is pretty ubiquitous, has plenty of parts and service
> knowledge.  I have and Alder-Barbor system which is based on the Danfoss
> compressor.  I'm quite satisfied and would recommend that you consider a
> Danfoss unit.
>
> Lets consider some hypothetical numbers based on the rep's info.  If a
> 100w panel were %100 effective and operated for 8 hours, you would get
> 800w-hrs of power per day.  800w divided by 12v = 67amp-hrs.  67 divided by
> 24hrs = 2.8amps current draw on average.
>
> That kinda gives you a ball park for what type of loads you'll be facing.
> Round up to 5amps/hr if you like for margin.  5 *24=120AHr per day.  A
> typical automotive size lead-acid battery has ~100AHrs capacity and you
> don't want to discharge below 50% so a minimum of 2 batteries in parallel
> (200AHr) would be required as your house battery bank to run only your
> refrigerator 24 hours a day with only a 100w solar panel.  If you are not
> on the boat you probably don't need the fridge on so the solar would keep
> the batteries topped up and if you are on board then you are probably
> starting the engine to at least get in and out of port (or on and off the
> hook).
>
> Lets assume that you run the engine a cumulative total of 1 hour per day
> and you have a minimum size alternator of 35 amps.  Lets also assume that
> it is putting out the full 35amps during the entire hour (it doesn't
> because output current is based on engine rpm).  Lets also assume that the
> charging efficiency of the batteries is 100%.  You can see pretty quickly
> that 35amps per day is not going to keep up with the 120amp (or even the
> 67amp) per day load of your refrigerator.  So now you have options, run the
> engine longer or get a larger alternator.
>
> You have to be careful that the alternator charge current is not going to
> exceed the charge rate for the type of battery which you have.  Lead acid =
> 25% of capacity.  Gel = 30%, and AGM = 40%.  So if you have 2 auto style
> AGM batteries at ~100 amps each then your bank is 200AHrs and you should
> limit your max charging current to 80amps.  At 80 amps and 1 hour of run
> time per day you're getting closer to being able to keep up with the needs
> of your refrigerator.
>
> AGM does not NEED to be charged at a higher rate but it CAN be.  AGM does
> need to be charged at a slightly different voltage profile otherwise
> gassing can occur and since it is AGM once the gas is gone it can't be put
> back in.  Even with a higher capacity alternator you will still need an
> external voltage regulator which would allow you to select the AGM
> profile.  Almost all battery chargers, alternators and solar controlers
> will charge a lead-acid (as a base model or by default) and if gassing
> occurs you can and should replace it by watering.  If you have room I
> suggest increasing your bank to the largest available lead-acid
> configuration and sizing the charging equipment as applicable.  IMO You'll
> get more bang for your buck and save yourself a bunch of other
> complications.
>
> Obviously there are a lot of variables but you should be able to apply
> your own needs and expected usage.  As a point of reference I have ~450Ahr
> on bank 1 and ~200AHr on bank 2.  I have 200w solar and a 90amp
> alternator.  I've been able to go on multi week trips and have never pulled
> into port because of a need for shore power or ice.  In my case water is
> the first limiting necessity (I have ~70 gallons) followed in the far
> distance by a need to pump my holding tank (~150 flushes).
>
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
>
> On Oct 14, 2017 11:50 AM, "DON JONSSON via CnC-List" <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> I previously lamented engine problems on my 1982 C 34.  I had the
>> original Yanmar 3GMD.  The problem was leaking oil from the intake 

Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

I talked to a Nova-Cool rep at one time who said that typically a 100w
solar panel could keep one of their 12v refrigerator system operating
indefinitely.  There are too many variables to say this absolutely but lets
assume the rep was right.  The Nova-Cool system is based on a Danfoss
compressor which is pretty ubiquitous, has plenty of parts and service
knowledge.  I have and Alder-Barbor system which is based on the Danfoss
compressor.  I'm quite satisfied and would recommend that you consider a
Danfoss unit.

Lets consider some hypothetical numbers based on the rep's info.  If a 100w
panel were %100 effective and operated for 8 hours, you would get 800w-hrs
of power per day.  800w divided by 12v = 67amp-hrs.  67 divided by 24hrs =
2.8amps current draw on average.

That kinda gives you a ball park for what type of loads you'll be facing.
Round up to 5amps/hr if you like for margin.  5 *24=120AHr per day.  A
typical automotive size lead-acid battery has ~100AHrs capacity and you
don't want to discharge below 50% so a minimum of 2 batteries in parallel
(200AHr) would be required as your house battery bank to run only your
refrigerator 24 hours a day with only a 100w solar panel.  If you are not
on the boat you probably don't need the fridge on so the solar would keep
the batteries topped up and if you are on board then you are probably
starting the engine to at least get in and out of port (or on and off the
hook).

Lets assume that you run the engine a cumulative total of 1 hour per day
and you have a minimum size alternator of 35 amps.  Lets also assume that
it is putting out the full 35amps during the entire hour (it doesn't
because output current is based on engine rpm).  Lets also assume that the
charging efficiency of the batteries is 100%.  You can see pretty quickly
that 35amps per day is not going to keep up with the 120amp (or even the
67amp) per day load of your refrigerator.  So now you have options, run the
engine longer or get a larger alternator.

You have to be careful that the alternator charge current is not going to
exceed the charge rate for the type of battery which you have.  Lead acid =
25% of capacity.  Gel = 30%, and AGM = 40%.  So if you have 2 auto style
AGM batteries at ~100 amps each then your bank is 200AHrs and you should
limit your max charging current to 80amps.  At 80 amps and 1 hour of run
time per day you're getting closer to being able to keep up with the needs
of your refrigerator.

AGM does not NEED to be charged at a higher rate but it CAN be.  AGM does
need to be charged at a slightly different voltage profile otherwise
gassing can occur and since it is AGM once the gas is gone it can't be put
back in.  Even with a higher capacity alternator you will still need an
external voltage regulator which would allow you to select the AGM
profile.  Almost all battery chargers, alternators and solar controlers
will charge a lead-acid (as a base model or by default) and if gassing
occurs you can and should replace it by watering.  If you have room I
suggest increasing your bank to the largest available lead-acid
configuration and sizing the charging equipment as applicable.  IMO You'll
get more bang for your buck and save yourself a bunch of other
complications.

Obviously there are a lot of variables but you should be able to apply your
own needs and expected usage.  As a point of reference I have ~450Ahr on
bank 1 and ~200AHr on bank 2.  I have 200w solar and a 90amp alternator.
I've been able to go on multi week trips and have never pulled into port
because of a need for shore power or ice.  In my case water is the first
limiting necessity (I have ~70 gallons) followed in the far distance by a
need to pump my holding tank (~150 flushes).

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD


On Oct 14, 2017 11:50 AM, "DON JONSSON via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> Hi
>
> I previously lamented engine problems on my 1982 C 34.  I had the
> original Yanmar 3GMD.  The problem was leaking oil from the intake manifold
> caused by serious blow back.  There is also a transmission problem, where
> it doesn't always go into gear.
>
> So the decision has been made to put a new engine in, and as someone
> mentioned over capitalize the boat.  But we sail to the outside of
> Vancouver Island and up north to where engine problems would be a super
> pain.  (Soon I will post information about the engine and extra parts in
> case anyone is interested.  It has an almost brand new exhaust riser on it
> built by Gartside.)
>
> The old engine is out and we are now sound insulating the engine
> compartment.
>
> The boat currently has an ice box but putting in refrigeration is high on
> the list.  Getting ice rapidly becomes a challenge as you head off.  This
> would imply more battery power and an alternator to keep it going.  We are
> looking at a Beta 25 for which you can get a 75 or 120 amp alternator.
> Because of limited battery space I'm thinking of using AGM batteries which
> 

Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[David via CnC-List]

With a 25 HP do not go more than 75 amp.   Too much lost for that HP.



Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone


 Original message 
From: DON JONSSON via CnC-List 
Date: 10/14/17 11:51 (GMT-05:00)
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: DON JONSSON 
Subject: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

Hi

I previously lamented engine problems on my 1982 C 34.  I had the original 
Yanmar 3GMD.  The problem was leaking oil from the intake manifold caused by 
serious blow back.  There is also a transmission problem, where it doesn't 
always go into gear.

So the decision has been made to put a new engine in, and as someone mentioned 
over capitalize the boat.  But we sail to the outside of Vancouver Island and 
up north to where engine problems would be a super pain.  (Soon I will post 
information about the engine and extra parts in case anyone is interested.  It 
has an almost brand new exhaust riser on it built by Gartside.)

The old engine is out and we are now sound insulating the engine compartment.

The boat currently has an ice box but putting in refrigeration is high on the 
list.  Getting ice rapidly becomes a challenge as you head off.  This would 
imply more battery power and an alternator to keep it going.  We are looking at 
a Beta 25 for which you can get a 75 or 120 amp alternator.  Because of limited 
battery space I'm thinking of using AGM batteries which you can suck more amps 
out of.

Has anyone got some words of wisdom and/or experience with this?  Including 
what is the minimum amount of available amp hours you need?  The water is cold 
up here and it usually doesn't get too hot.  It seems with AGM batteries you 
need a fair bit more charging capability.

Although the refrigeration project is a little further off I don't want to but 
too small of an alternator now.

Thanks
Don Jonsson
Victoria, B.C.


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October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a small 
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--   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

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Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

Don,

First of all, I loved you in Miami Vice. 

I agree with Alan — get the larger alternator, which is what I did when I 
repowered my boat with a Beta 30. 

Since the previous Enterprise (NCC-1701-A) was a C 34, I also share Alan’s 
concerns with being able to fit AGM batteries in that compartment under the 
quarter berth. Measure it out first. Also make sure the AGMs have enough Cold 
Cranking Amps (CCAs) to turn the starter motor. Beta should be able to guide 
you on those specs and give you recommendations. A guy named Farron at Beta in 
North Carolina seems to know everything about Beta's and diesels in general: 
far...@betamarinenc.com  

You are going to LOVE the Beta. Everything is easy to service and maintain. And 
that built-in oil change pump is a dream. Knowing the 34, the one area that 
will be a challenge, unless you are a pretty good contortionist, is changing 
that sacrificial anode and checking the O-ring on the aft starboard side of the 
engine every year. 

Oh — and here’s a tip for that oil-change pump. Buy a cheap 1/2” I.D. length of 
hose. It will fit nicely on the pump and its a great way to pump oil into a 
container without any mess. 


All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
City Island, NY 
Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 




On Oct 14, 2017, at 12:00 PM, ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List  
wrote:



On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 8:50 AM, DON JONSSON via CnC-List 
> wrote:
Hi

I previously lamented engine problems on my 1982 C 34.  I had the original 
Yanmar 3GMD.  The problem was leaking oil from the intake manifold caused by 
serious blow back.  There is also a transmission problem, where it doesn't 
always go into gear.

So the decision has been made to put a new engine in, and as someone mentioned 
over capitalize the boat.  But we sail to the outside of Vancouver Island and 
up north to where engine problems would be a super pain.  (Soon I will post 
information about the engine and extra parts in case anyone is interested.  It 
has an almost brand new exhaust riser on it built by Gartside.)

The old engine is out and we are now sound insulating the engine compartment.

The boat currently has an ice box but putting in refrigeration is high on the 
list.  Getting ice rapidly becomes a challenge as you head off.  This would 
imply more battery power and an alternator to keep it going.  We are looking at 
a Beta 25 for which you can get a 75 or 120 amp alternator.  Because of limited 
battery space I'm thinking of using AGM batteries which you can suck more amps 
out of.

Has anyone got some words of wisdom and/or experience with this?  Including 
what is the minimum amount of available amp hours you need?  The water is cold 
up here and it usually doesn't get too hot.  It seems with AGM batteries you 
need a fair bit more charging capability.

Although the refrigeration project is a little further off I don't want to but 
too small of an alternator now.

Thanks
Don Jonsson
Victoria, B.C.


___

The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up again.  
October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a small 
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All contributions are greatly appreciated!



-- 
Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR
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The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up again.  
October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a small 
contribution to help keep this list running.  Use PayPal to send contribution 
--   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All contributions are greatly appreciated!

___

The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up again.  
October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a small 
contribution to help keep this list running.  Use PayPal to send contribution 
--   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List New Engine, now what size alternator

[ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List]

Get the larger alternator.  Also, remember that AGM batteries are taller
than lead acid batteries.  You'll also need a new charger that can charge
AGM batteries.  Get a charger that has a switch for use with AGM, gel or
lead acid batteries.

Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR

On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 8:50 AM, DON JONSSON via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I previously lamented engine problems on my 1982 C 34.  I had the
> original Yanmar 3GMD.  The problem was leaking oil from the intake manifold
> caused by serious blow back.  There is also a transmission problem, where
> it doesn't always go into gear.
>
> So the decision has been made to put a new engine in, and as someone
> mentioned over capitalize the boat.  But we sail to the outside of
> Vancouver Island and up north to where engine problems would be a super
> pain.  (Soon I will post information about the engine and extra parts in
> case anyone is interested.  It has an almost brand new exhaust riser on it
> built by Gartside.)
>
> The old engine is out and we are now sound insulating the engine
> compartment.
>
> The boat currently has an ice box but putting in refrigeration is high on
> the list.  Getting ice rapidly becomes a challenge as you head off.  This
> would imply more battery power and an alternator to keep it going.  We are
> looking at a Beta 25 for which you can get a 75 or 120 amp alternator.
> Because of limited battery space I'm thinking of using AGM batteries which
> you can suck more amps out of.
>
> Has anyone got some words of wisdom and/or experience with this?
> Including what is the minimum amount of available amp hours you need?  The
> water is cold up here and it usually doesn't get too hot.  It seems with
> AGM batteries you need a fair bit more charging capability.
>
> Although the refrigeration project is a little further off I don't want to
> but too small of an alternator now.
>
> Thanks
> Don Jonsson
> Victoria, B.C.
>
>
> ___
>
> The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up
> again.  October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a
> small contribution to help keep this list running.  Use PayPal to send
> contribution --   https://urldefense.proofpoint.
> com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.paypal.me_stumurray=DwICAg=
> clK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI=
> 9w3G7Cf8YfQnrjmtuNxwDJYr3JMv9f1pAfgAJ9xXYQQ=XGof74pLEND1qFaKWhayB3-
> Emn9Lav4WhEvam_xO4uA=DesOVq9iSgUZdqDCfyQTcaS9Gd-oIih8XnHBfOPlmJw=
>
> All contributions are greatly appreciated!
>



-- 
Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR
___

The bills have started coming in for the year 2018 and have gone up again.  
October will be our fund raising month.  Please consider sending a small 
contribution to help keep this list running.  Use PayPal to send contribution 
--   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All contributions are greatly appreciated!