Re: Content editor [was: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-)development environment" ...]

[Joerg Heinicke]

Sorry, this mail shouldn't go to the list, but to Markus Vaterlaus.

Joerg Heinicke wrote:
Hallo Markus,

ich nehme mal an, dass Deutsch kein Problem für dich darstellt - das 
macht die Sache für mich auch einfacher ... Die leichte Verzögerung 
(immerhin fast 3 Wochen) liegt an den Diplomprüfungen, die ich in dieser 
Zeit schreiben musste. Bin jetzt bei 1400 ungelesenen Cocoon-Mails.

Aber mal zum Thema: Ja, unsere Firma (www.virbus.de) hat eine Lösung 
programmiert, mit der Content mit OpenOffice gepflegt werden kann. Der 
Code gehört allerdings nicht mehr uns, so dass ich nicht mehr als den 
Ablauf beschreiben kann.

Wir standen vor einem ähnlichen Problem, dass der Kunde den Content per 
Word, zumindest aber WYSIWYG pflegen wollte. Wir haben letztendlich 
OpenOffice durchgesetzt (der Kostenfaktor hat überzeugt) und eine 
Dokumentstrukturierung mittels einer Vorlage vorgegeben. Diese 
OpenOffice-Datei gefüllt mit Content wird von den Kunden per Webformular 
hochgeladen. Cocoon entzippt die Datei und legt die verschiedenen 
XML-Dateien und die enthaltenen Bilder im Dateisystem ab. HTML wird aus 
den verschiedenen Dateien dann on the fly erzeugt (zu sehen unter 
www.ekommunen.de die Nachrichten).
Noch ein paar Kommentare: Sehr wichtig ist die Strukturierung der 
Dokumente. Es reicht nicht nur die Formattierung zu ändern. Je komplexer 
die Dateien werden, desto komplizierter werden natürlich auch die 
XSL-Stylesheets. Ich möchte behaupten, dass auch bei 
best-strukturiertesten Dokumenten eine gehörige Portion XSL-Wissen nötig 
ist. Es bleibt ja immer noch eine relativ "flache" XML-Datei, sprich mit 
wenig Hierarchie.
Eine andere Frage bleibt natürlich die Umstellung von Word auf 
OpenOffice. Ich weiß zwar nicht, wie weit fortgeschritten das 
POI-Projekt (http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/index.html) ist, aber 
eventuell kann man damit bereits vernünftiges XML aus Word erzeugen. Es 
gab auch mal einen POI-Generator in Cocoon - Qualität unbekannt. 
Word-HTML halte ich persönlich für eine schlechte Idee.
Eine andere Idee wäre noch der vorgeschlagene WYSIWYG-XML-Editor XXE von 
XMLMind. Allerdings ist das eine noch größere Umstellung für 
Word-Nutzer. Der ist deutlich technik-orientierter und setzt auch ein 
gewisses XML-Wissen voraus. DTD- oder Schema-getrieben würde das 
Ergebnis aber immerhin sehr strukturiert sein. Bei uns wird der 
eingesetzt für technische Dokumentation mit Docbook. Nicht jeder 
schreibt gern pures XML, obwohl ich persönlich das immer noch bevorzuge.

Ich hoffe, ich konnte dir einen gewissen Einblick geben. Wenn du Fragen 
hast, stehe ich natürlich gern zur Verfügung. Es gilt eigentlich "nur" 
abzuwägen zwischen der Umstellung der 30 Dokumentatoren und dem Aufwand 
für die Implementierung ;-)

Jörg

Markus Vaterlaus wrote:

Hi there,

I'm just facing the same problem as you do. About 30 persons are 
contributing to our documentation (a single document runs from 10 to 
100 pages with about as much graphics in it). Actually all this is 
done in MS Word. I have the Vision that in the near future all this 
content will no longer be stored in a proprietary format. Instead of 
that it will be stored in XML and cocoon will be a good helper to 
manage and publish this content. However, for me the biggest problem 
actually is, what kind of alternatives for an editor are existing? All 
users are mentally bound to Word. They like it's functionality, it's 
ability to write in WYSIWYG-mode et cetera. Actually I'm thinking 
about using OpenOffice as an editor. Has anyone of you cocoonistas any 
experiences or best practices on this behalf (and also on the 
interaction with cocoon)?

--mv


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Re: Content editor [was: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-)development environment" ...]

[Joerg Heinicke]

Hallo Markus,

ich nehme mal an, dass Deutsch kein Problem für dich darstellt - das 
macht die Sache für mich auch einfacher ... Die leichte Verzögerung 
(immerhin fast 3 Wochen) liegt an den Diplomprüfungen, die ich in dieser 
Zeit schreiben musste. Bin jetzt bei 1400 ungelesenen Cocoon-Mails.

Aber mal zum Thema: Ja, unsere Firma (www.virbus.de) hat eine Lösung 
programmiert, mit der Content mit OpenOffice gepflegt werden kann. Der 
Code gehört allerdings nicht mehr uns, so dass ich nicht mehr als den 
Ablauf beschreiben kann.

Wir standen vor einem ähnlichen Problem, dass der Kunde den Content per 
Word, zumindest aber WYSIWYG pflegen wollte. Wir haben letztendlich 
OpenOffice durchgesetzt (der Kostenfaktor hat überzeugt) und eine 
Dokumentstrukturierung mittels einer Vorlage vorgegeben. Diese 
OpenOffice-Datei gefüllt mit Content wird von den Kunden per Webformular 
hochgeladen. Cocoon entzippt die Datei und legt die verschiedenen 
XML-Dateien und die enthaltenen Bilder im Dateisystem ab. HTML wird aus 
den verschiedenen Dateien dann on the fly erzeugt (zu sehen unter 
www.ekommunen.de die Nachrichten).
Noch ein paar Kommentare: Sehr wichtig ist die Strukturierung der 
Dokumente. Es reicht nicht nur die Formattierung zu ändern. Je komplexer 
die Dateien werden, desto komplizierter werden natürlich auch die 
XSL-Stylesheets. Ich möchte behaupten, dass auch bei 
best-strukturiertesten Dokumenten eine gehörige Portion XSL-Wissen nötig 
ist. Es bleibt ja immer noch eine relativ "flache" XML-Datei, sprich mit 
wenig Hierarchie.
Eine andere Frage bleibt natürlich die Umstellung von Word auf 
OpenOffice. Ich weiß zwar nicht, wie weit fortgeschritten das 
POI-Projekt (http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/index.html) ist, aber 
eventuell kann man damit bereits vernünftiges XML aus Word erzeugen. Es 
gab auch mal einen POI-Generator in Cocoon - Qualität unbekannt. 
Word-HTML halte ich persönlich für eine schlechte Idee.
Eine andere Idee wäre noch der vorgeschlagene WYSIWYG-XML-Editor XXE von 
XMLMind. Allerdings ist das eine noch größere Umstellung für 
Word-Nutzer. Der ist deutlich technik-orientierter und setzt auch ein 
gewisses XML-Wissen voraus. DTD- oder Schema-getrieben würde das 
Ergebnis aber immerhin sehr strukturiert sein. Bei uns wird der 
eingesetzt für technische Dokumentation mit Docbook. Nicht jeder 
schreibt gern pures XML, obwohl ich persönlich das immer noch bevorzuge.

Ich hoffe, ich konnte dir einen gewissen Einblick geben. Wenn du Fragen 
hast, stehe ich natürlich gern zur Verfügung. Es gilt eigentlich "nur" 
abzuwägen zwischen der Umstellung der 30 Dokumentatoren und dem Aufwand 
für die Implementierung ;-)

Jörg

Markus Vaterlaus wrote:
Hi there,

I'm just facing the same problem as you do. About 30 persons are 
contributing to our documentation (a single document runs from 10 to 100 
pages with about as much graphics in it). Actually all this is done in 
MS Word. I have the Vision that in the near future all this content will 
no longer be stored in a proprietary format. Instead of that it will be 
stored in XML and cocoon will be a good helper to manage and publish 
this content. However, for me the biggest problem actually is, what kind 
of alternatives for an editor are existing? All users are mentally bound 
to Word. They like it's functionality, it's ability to write in 
WYSIWYG-mode et cetera. Actually I'm thinking about using OpenOffice as 
an editor. Has anyone of you cocoonistas any experiences or best 
practices on this behalf (and also on the interaction with cocoon)?

--mv

Am Samstag, 08.02.03 um 20:28 Uhr schrieb Robert Simmons:




The only other comment I have is that I'm still searching for a content
editor for Static XML. I'm currently investigating using adobe 
FrameMaker.
The idea being that I would have a WYSIWYG way of editing documents 
that any
one of my clients could use and I could write XSLT processors to 
convert that
to the web format using cocoon. Right now the current XML editors are too
primitive. Usable for a programmer but for a corporate document 
jockey, no
chance.

-- Robert




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Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment"...

[Frank Ridderbusch]

On Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:40:57 +
Jeremy Quinn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm just curious. I assume you XXE used only with UTF-8 or ascii. I 
> > also
> > gave XXE a short whirl, but I was unable to load documents with
> > encoding="ISO-8859-1" that contained german öäü... characters.
> 
> XXE reads the encoding from the first line of your file, if there is 
> not one there, it uses whatever you have set for the default in 
> 'options'.
> 
> regards Jeremy
> 

Good, that we talked about it. 

I was originally of the opinion, that everything I did was correct, but 
now that I rechecked I found, that I had written "ISO8859-1" instead of
"ISO-8859-1" (simple typo). 

After I corrected this, everything works like a charm. 

So, what I've seen from XXE is really impressive.

So, thanks for answering and in turn causing me to recheck.
-- 
MfG/Regards

Frank Ridderbusch


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Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

NetBeans at www.netbeans.org has these features in its XML editor.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Rob Hoopman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


> SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
>
> 
>
> > 5.) eclipse
> > 6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)
>
> 
>
> I'm currently evaluating oxygen (http://www.oxygenxml.com), it has
> tag-closing DTD/Schema aware tag insert and XSLT transformation
> functionality and so far I'm impressed by it.
>
> Do any of you know any other editors that support similar functionality?
> I'm tempted to spring the USD 65 (USD 25 academic)  when my evaluation
> expires, but there might be something better out there?
>
>
> Regards.
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment"...

[Rob Hoopman]

SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:




5.) eclipse
6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)




I'm currently evaluating oxygen (http://www.oxygenxml.com), it has 
tag-closing DTD/Schema aware tag insert and XSLT transformation 
functionality and so far I'm impressed by it.

Do any of you know any other editors that support similar functionality?
I'm tempted to spring the USD 65 (USD 25 academic)  when my evaluation 
expires, but there might be something better out there?


Regards.

Rob



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RE: Content editor [was: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...]

[Conal Tuohy]

Markus Vaterlaus wrote:

> I'm just facing the same problem as you do. About 30 persons are
> contributing to our documentation (a single document runs from 10 to
> 100 pages with about as much graphics in it). Actually all
> this is done
> in MS Word. I have the Vision that in the near future all
> this content
> will no longer be stored in a proprietary format. Instead of that it
> will be stored in XML and cocoon will be a good helper to manage and
> publish this content. However, for me the biggest problem
> actually is,
> what kind of alternatives for an editor are existing? All users are
> mentally bound to Word. They like it's functionality, it's ability to
> write in WYSIWYG-mode et cetera. Actually I'm thinking about using

If you can get your users to save their docs (from Word) in HTML format,
then Cocoon can read it with the HTMLGenerator. Perhaps a little VB macro
might help to automate the File/SaveAs/HTML operation, to ensure that Word's
proprietary format isn't used by mistake.

Cheers

Con



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Content editor [was: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...]

[Markus Vaterlaus]

Hi there,

I'm just facing the same problem as you do. About 30 persons are 
contributing to our documentation (a single document runs from 10 to 
100 pages with about as much graphics in it). Actually all this is done 
in MS Word. I have the Vision that in the near future all this content 
will no longer be stored in a proprietary format. Instead of that it 
will be stored in XML and cocoon will be a good helper to manage and 
publish this content. However, for me the biggest problem actually is, 
what kind of alternatives for an editor are existing? All users are 
mentally bound to Word. They like it's functionality, it's ability to 
write in WYSIWYG-mode et cetera. Actually I'm thinking about using 
OpenOffice as an editor. Has anyone of you cocoonistas any experiences 
or best practices on this behalf (and also on the interaction with 
cocoon)?

--mv


Am Samstag, 08.02.03 um 20:28 Uhr schrieb Robert Simmons:





The only other comment I have is that I'm still searching for a content
editor for Static XML. I'm currently investigating using adobe 
FrameMaker.
The idea being that I would have a WYSIWYG way of editing documents 
that any
one of my clients could use and I could write XSLT processors to 
convert that
to the web format using cocoon. Right now the current XML editors are 
too
primitive. Usable for a programmer but for a corporate document 
jockey, no
chance.

-- Robert




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RE: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Hunsberger, Peter]

> Ones you didnt talk about:
> 
> 13) Together control center. If you can afford it, it 
> absolutely kills any other IDE on the planet.

Hmm, I use it, but I wouldn't quite say that: it's got it's share of bugs
that make it sometimes quite painful to use.  However, we're getting good
support and I expect these to eventually be solved.

> 14) eXcelon Stylus Studio. A great XML editor. It has a bonus 
> of being easy to use and allot less confusing than XML Spy.

This is probably a personal preference kind of thing: I prefer Xslerator
over either Stylus or XML Spy, but my main focus is writing and debugging
XSLT.  If your main focus is XSLT to HTML transformation or XML authoring
then Stylus is probably the best choice.  If you need something sort of half
way in between then XML Spy does a reasonable job.



> >
> > * I also managed to setup eclipse with Cocoon in less than 10
> >minutes. OK, i did a lousy trick, but for debugging and
> >learning how cocoon internals  work it's absolutley
> >satisfying...
> 
> Shouldnt be tough, just run tomcat (or JBoss) in debug mode 
> with a socket attach. Then you can remote attach to the 
> socket and you are on your way!

Yes it works, but get some powerful hardware if you're using Together on the
other side of the debug socket!



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Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Jeremy Quinn]

On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 04:50 PM, Frank Ridderbusch wrote:


On Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:26:50 +
Jeremy Quinn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...


I don't have the $$$ to try Framemaker, but if you are prepared to put
in the work, you could try XMLMind XMLEditor (XXE).

	

You need to write a config for XXE, for your docset.
You need to write CSS to display your XML.
You can use either XSD or DTD for validation.

If you want to use XSD (and use the editor for free) you must have a
default namespace starting with
'http://xmlmind.com/xmleditor/Schema/[yourdoc]', in your document
root.

I have managed to produce a satisfactory environment for 'corporate
document jockeys' to use.

regards Jeremy



Hi,

I'm just curious. I assume you XXE used only with UTF-8 or ascii. I 
also
gave XXE a short whirl, but I was unable to load documents with
encoding="ISO-8859-1" that contained german öäü... characters.

XXE reads the encoding from the first line of your file, if there is 
not one there, it uses whatever you have set for the default in 
'options'.

regards Jeremy


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Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment"...

[SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous]

Hy, All;

Would you mind to open another thread about your JDO-theme ?

regards, Hussayn

--
Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
SAXESS Software Design GmbH
Neuenhöfer Allee 125
50935 Köln
Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
Fax: +49-221-56011-20
E-Mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

Well, I don't want to debate JDO vs. ODMG object mapping. I use JDO as will a
very large amount of other people. Don't judge it when you know little about
it. As for the query language, it blasts any other object based query
language to hell. As for CMP and BMP, you can toss those out the window.
Entity beans are the one blemish to EJB in my opinion. They are poorly
thought out and poorly implemented. In short, all entity beans are basically
crap.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 2:25 AM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


I'm familiar with BCEL and have used it to speed up JMX and reflection
based applications.
I haven't found the ODMG way to be very slow.  Are we comparing specs
to tools?  Most things can auto-deploy schemas, but very few of my
clients will use such a feature.
We've used several ODMG based solutions to take advantage of a
particular vendors enhancements, or J2C connectors.  I can say that in
the past my team of 3 have used these techniques to deliver
maintainable, workable solutions very quickly.

If you're persisting classes that you don't have control over, nor
access to the class files (don't you need access to manipulate them?)
then I'd be worried about version management and coupling.

But, I'll have another look.  Last thing, it's too bad that with JDO
they have introduced 3 query languages, rather than have one that works
for JDO, CMP-EJB, etc.

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 04:56  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:

> Yes. That is part of the specification. The enhancement is to byte
> code, not
> to native versions of the code. Therefore any JVM can read the enhanced
> files. You might look at Jakarta's BCEL project to get an idea about
> how byte
> code enhancement works.
>
> As for the ODMG vs. byte code enhancement, Id have to disagree. The
> thing I
> want out of a persistence project is a fire and forget solution. As a
> consultant, I don't get paid for providing persistence solutions. I
> get paid
> for working on what makes my clients money. Be that web purchasing or
> genetic
> engineering. I am far better off having solutions where I need to
> invest only
> small amounts of thought in how to persist data and do object to
> relational
> mapping.
>
> In addition, there are instances, many of them, where you have neither
> control of the data that needs to be stored, nor access to the class
> files
> defining these data objects. At which point the JDO approach is far
> superior.
> Lastly the JDO approach provides the ability to reverse engineer
> schemas into
> the cross JDO vendor portable JDO metadeta files. This gives enormous
> power
> when working with legacy databases.
>
> -- Robert
>
> ----- Original Message -
> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 1:37 AM
> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
> environment" ...
>
>
> Have you found that it works well for you across JVM versions and
> implementations?  The ODMG JDO works everywhere.
>
> On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 05:22  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
>
>> Point of correction. Class enhancement is not generation per se. The
>> actual
>> class files are enhanced in place. In other words the byte code
>> enhancers go
>> into the class files and alter them. The solution elegantly solves
>> some nasty
>> problems.
>>
>> -- Robert
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Robert Simmons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:59 PM
>> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
>> environment" ...
>>
>>
>>> Sun JDO JSR-12.
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
>>> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
>>> environment"
>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>> Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
>>> generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?
>>>
>>> Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the
>>> spec
>>> ... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference
>>> implementation
>>> does 

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert]

I'm familiar with BCEL and have used it to speed up JMX and reflection  
based applications.
I haven't found the ODMG way to be very slow.  Are we comparing specs  
to tools?  Most things can auto-deploy schemas, but very few of my  
clients will use such a feature.
We've used several ODMG based solutions to take advantage of a  
particular vendors enhancements, or J2C connectors.  I can say that in  
the past my team of 3 have used these techniques to deliver  
maintainable, workable solutions very quickly.

If you're persisting classes that you don't have control over, nor  
access to the class files (don't you need access to manipulate them?)  
then I'd be worried about version management and coupling.

But, I'll have another look.  Last thing, it's too bad that with JDO  
they have introduced 3 query languages, rather than have one that works  
for JDO, CMP-EJB, etc.

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 04:56  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:

Yes. That is part of the specification. The enhancement is to byte  
code, not
to native versions of the code. Therefore any JVM can read the enhanced
files. You might look at Jakarta's BCEL project to get an idea about  
how byte
code enhancement works.

As for the ODMG vs. byte code enhancement, Id have to disagree. The  
thing I
want out of a persistence project is a fire and forget solution. As a
consultant, I don't get paid for providing persistence solutions. I  
get paid
for working on what makes my clients money. Be that web purchasing or  
genetic
engineering. I am far better off having solutions where I need to  
invest only
small amounts of thought in how to persist data and do object to  
relational
mapping.

In addition, there are instances, many of them, where you have neither
control of the data that needs to be stored, nor access to the class  
files
defining these data objects. At which point the JDO approach is far  
superior.
Lastly the JDO approach provides the ability to reverse engineer  
schemas into
the cross JDO vendor portable JDO metadeta files. This gives enormous  
power
when working with legacy databases.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 1:37 AM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development  
environment" ...


Have you found that it works well for you across JVM versions and
implementations?  The ODMG JDO works everywhere.

On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 05:22  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:

Point of correction. Class enhancement is not generation per se. The
actual
class files are enhanced in place. In other words the byte code
enhancers go
into the class files and alter them. The solution elegantly solves
some nasty
problems.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Robert Simmons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
environment" ...



Sun JDO JSR-12.


- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
environment"

...



Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?

Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the
spec
... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference
implementation
does (like the classpath stuff).  Is it superior, I can't say for  
sure
(but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss.  I like  
it
because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between
applications and what the server itself uses (making me less  
dependent
on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:

I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
superior
to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it.
Perhaps
it
will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.

Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
basically
rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an
object
model
using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
(raw XML
or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me"
and
it
just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence
and
schema manipulation.

I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking
about using
it in the book that I am writing.

-- Robert



----- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMA

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

Yes. That is part of the specification. The enhancement is to byte code, not
to native versions of the code. Therefore any JVM can read the enhanced
files. You might look at Jakarta's BCEL project to get an idea about how byte
code enhancement works.

As for the ODMG vs. byte code enhancement, Id have to disagree. The thing I
want out of a persistence project is a fire and forget solution. As a
consultant, I don't get paid for providing persistence solutions. I get paid
for working on what makes my clients money. Be that web purchasing or genetic
engineering. I am far better off having solutions where I need to invest only
small amounts of thought in how to persist data and do object to relational
mapping.

In addition, there are instances, many of them, where you have neither
control of the data that needs to be stored, nor access to the class files
defining these data objects. At which point the JDO approach is far superior.
Lastly the JDO approach provides the ability to reverse engineer schemas into
the cross JDO vendor portable JDO metadeta files. This gives enormous power
when working with legacy databases.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 1:37 AM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


Have you found that it works well for you across JVM versions and
implementations?  The ODMG JDO works everywhere.

On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 05:22  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:

> Point of correction. Class enhancement is not generation per se. The
> actual
> class files are enhanced in place. In other words the byte code
> enhancers go
> into the class files and alter them. The solution elegantly solves
> some nasty
> problems.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Robert Simmons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:59 PM
> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
> environment" ...
>
>
>> Sun JDO JSR-12.
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -----
>> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
>> environment"
> ...
>>
>>
>> Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
>> generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?
>>
>> Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the
>> spec
>> ... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference
>> implementation
>> does (like the classpath stuff).  Is it superior, I can't say for sure
>> (but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss.  I like it
>> because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between
>> applications and what the server itself uses (making me less dependent
>> on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Thor HW
>>
>> On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:
>>
>>> I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
>>> superior
>>> to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it.
>>> Perhaps
>>> it
>>> will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
>>> http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.
>>>
>>> Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
>>> basically
>>> rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an
>>> object
>>> model
>>> using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
>>> (raw XML
>>> or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me"
>>> and
>>> it
>>> just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence
>>> and
>>> schema manipulation.
>>>
>>> I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking
>>> about using
>>> it in the book that I am writing.
>>>
>>> -- Robert
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
>>> environment" ...
>>>
>>>
>>> Robert:
>>>

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert]

Have you found that it works well for you across JVM versions and  
implementations?  The ODMG JDO works everywhere.

On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 05:22  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:

Point of correction. Class enhancement is not generation per se. The  
actual
class files are enhanced in place. In other words the byte code  
enhancers go
into the class files and alter them. The solution elegantly solves  
some nasty
problems.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Robert Simmons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development  
environment" ...


Sun JDO JSR-12.


- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development  
environment"
...



Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?

Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the  
spec
... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference  
implementation
does (like the classpath stuff).  Is it superior, I can't say for sure
(but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss.  I like it
because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between
applications and what the server itself uses (making me less dependent
on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:

I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
superior
to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it.  
Perhaps
it
will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.

Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
basically
rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an  
object
model
using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
(raw XML
or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me"  
and
it
just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence  
and
schema manipulation.

I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking
about using
it in the book that I am writing.

-- Robert



- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
environment" ...


Robert:

Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must
copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon  
(2.0/2.1)
and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice
when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its
own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
available in Tomcat at some point.

If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib  
tree,
add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest  
...
Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.

I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO  
and
not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:

Hy, all;

During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this
mailing
list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my
development
environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be  
great,
if someone could comment on this issue.


the tools collection

Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
at least partially by what i do for my customers...

free tools:
1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)

Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you spend money on
support
contracts. Cheaper. In addition, Solaris is primitive compared to
Linux.


2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)


Duh ;)


3.) tomcat 4.1.18


Yes, but you can go one step further. Get JBoss with integrated
tomcat. JBoss
will handle all sorty of nasty things like deploying to clusters for
you. As
a bonus, you get the ability to integrate with EJB based programs.


4.) cocoon-2.0.4


2.1 Hopefully soon!


5.) eclipse


See my previous message about eclopse vs netbeans.


6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)


URL ?


7.) ant


I have 15 million of them in my damn appartment, want a few? Oh ...
you mean
Jakarta ant? Ok, nevermind then. =) Im currently looking at  
Krysalis'
extensions to ant. http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/quickstart.html

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert]

Possibly, but when I went to Sun's announcement of JDO at JavaOne they  
had post-processing of the *.class files with some funky stuff so that  
the classloaders wouldn't reject the *.class files to allow loading of  
the data.  Castor, et al. was following the ODMG much closer and didn't  
try to hide the fact the the classes were persistent and made the  
programmer do a little work.  I found that approach much more in  
keeping with where I wanted to go.  I guess that's why I like Jini and  
the new RMI stuff as they don't try and hide the network, as much as  
abstract it for you.

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 12:30  AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote:

On Sunday 09 February 2003 05:59, Robert Simmons wrote:

Sun JDO JSR-12.


And I thought this is a Java specific specification of the ODMG model.  
No?


- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development  
environment"
...


Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?

Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the  
spec
... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference  
implementation
does (like the classpath stuff).  Is it superior, I can't say for sure
(but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss.  I like it
because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between
applications and what the server itself uses (making me less dependent
on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:
I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
superior
to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it.  
Perhaps
it
will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.

Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
basically
rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an  
object
model
using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
(raw XML
or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me"  
and
it
just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence  
and
schema manipulation.

I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking
about using
it in the book that I am writing.

-- Robert



- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
environment" ...


Robert:

Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must
copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon  
(2.0/2.1)
and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice
when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its
own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
available in Tomcat at some point.

If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib  
tree,
add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest  
...
Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.

I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO  
and
not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
Hy, all;

During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this
mailing
list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my
development
environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be  
great,
if someone could comment on this issue.


the tools collection

Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
at least partially by what i do for my customers...

free tools:
1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)

Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you spend money on
support
contracts. Cheaper. In addition, Solaris is primitive compared to
Linux.


2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)


Duh ;)


3.) tomcat 4.1.18


Yes, but you can go one step further. Get JBoss with integrated
tomcat. JBoss
will handle all sorty of nasty things like deploying to clusters for
you. As
a bonus, you get the ability to integrate with EJB based programs.


4.) cocoon-2.0.4


2.1 Hopefully soon!


5.) eclipse


See my previous message about eclopse vs netbeans.


6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)


URL ?


7.) ant


I have 15 million of them in my damn appartment, want a few? Oh ...
you mean
Jakarta

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment"...

[Frank Ridderbusch]

On Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:26:50 +
Jeremy Quinn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...
> 
> I don't have the $$$ to try Framemaker, but if you are prepared to put
> in the work, you could try XMLMind XMLEditor (XXE).
> 
>   
> 
> You need to write a config for XXE, for your docset.
> You need to write CSS to display your XML.
> You can use either XSD or DTD for validation.
> 
> If you want to use XSD (and use the editor for free) you must have a 
> default namespace starting with 
> 'http://xmlmind.com/xmleditor/Schema/[yourdoc]', in your document
> root.
> 
> I have managed to produce a satisfactory environment for 'corporate 
> document jockeys' to use.
> 
> regards Jeremy
> 

Hi,

I'm just curious. I assume you XXE used only with UTF-8 or ascii. I also
gave XXE a short whirl, but I was unable to load documents with
encoding="ISO-8859-1" that contained german öäü... characters.

The documents were originally created with XEmacs and styled with Saxon 
and the DOCBOOK stylesheet from Norman Walsh. And this worked
flawlessly. So I think, there might be an issue with XXE and with
"non-standard" character sets.


Well, I don't assume I must explicitly start Java with an encoding
defined (I haven't tried this yet).

-- 
MfG/Regards

Frank Ridderbusch

Since I have taken all the Gates out of my computer, it finally works!!


-
Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
FAQ before posting. 

To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

Point of correction. Class enhancement is not generation per se. The actual
class files are enhanced in place. In other words the byte code enhancers go
into the class files and alter them. The solution elegantly solves some nasty
problems.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Robert Simmons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


> Sun JDO JSR-12.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment"
...
>
>
> Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
> generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?
>
> Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the spec
> ... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference implementation
> does (like the classpath stuff).  Is it superior, I can't say for sure
> (but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss.  I like it
> because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between
> applications and what the server itself uses (making me less dependent
> on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).
>
> Cheers,
> Thor HW
>
> On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:
>
> > I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
> > superior
> > to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it. Perhaps
> > it
> > will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
> > http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.
> >
> > Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
> > basically
> > rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an object
> > model
> > using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
> > (raw XML
> > or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me" and
> > it
> > just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence and
> > schema manipulation.
> >
> > I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking
> > about using
> > it in the book that I am writing.
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
> > environment" ...
> >
> >
> > Robert:
> >
> > Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must
> > copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon (2.0/2.1)
> > and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice
> > when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its
> > own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
> > available in Tomcat at some point.
> >
> > If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib tree,
> > add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest ...
> > Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.
> >
> > I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO and
> > not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Thor HW
> >
> > On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
> >
> >>> Hy, all;
> >>>
> >>> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this
> >>> mailing
> >>> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my
> >>> development
> >>> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
> >>> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
> >>> if someone could comment on this issue.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> the tools collection
> >>> 
> >>> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
> >>> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
> >>>
> >>> free tools:
> >>> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)
> >>
> >> Go linux. Instead of spending money on lice

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

Nope. 100% pure Java specification. Give it a read. The first couple chapters
will give you a good idea of its meaning.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Niclas Hedhman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


On Sunday 09 February 2003 05:59, Robert Simmons wrote:
> Sun JDO JSR-12.

And I thought this is a Java specific specification of the ODMG model. No?


> - Original Message -
> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment"
> ...
>
>
> Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
> generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?
>
> Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the spec
> ... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference implementation
> does (like the classpath stuff).  Is it superior, I can't say for sure
> (but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss.  I like it
> because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between
> applications and what the server itself uses (making me less dependent
> on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).
>
> Cheers,
> Thor HW
>
> On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:
> > I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
> > superior
> > to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it. Perhaps
> > it
> > will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
> > http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.
> >
> > Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
> > basically
> > rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an object
> > model
> > using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
> > (raw XML
> > or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me" and
> > it
> > just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence and
> > schema manipulation.
> >
> > I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking
> > about using
> > it in the book that I am writing.
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
> > environment" ...
> >
> >
> > Robert:
> >
> > Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must
> > copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon (2.0/2.1)
> > and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice
> > when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its
> > own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
> > available in Tomcat at some point.
> >
> > If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib tree,
> > add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest ...
> > Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.
> >
> > I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO and
> > not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Thor HW
> >
> > On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
> >>> Hy, all;
> >>>
> >>> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this
> >>> mailing
> >>> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my
> >>> development
> >>> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
> >>> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
> >>> if someone could comment on this issue.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> the tools collection
> >>> 
> >>> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
> >>> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
> >>>
> >>> free tools:
> >>> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)
> >>
> >> Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you sp

RE: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Michael Homeijer]

Your classpath issue won't be fixed by other combinations. It's not a tomcat
problem. The only thing that will fix the problem is fixing the java
compiler in Cocoon to not use a classpath, but use the classloader instead.
For this two fixes have been suggested on the mailing list:
- Fixing the piza compiler (I think this was done bij Jakob Dalsgaard)
I tried the fix, but couldn't get it to work in my Cocoon setup.
- Using the eclipse java compiler in Cocoon (suggested by Christopher
Oliver). The compiler he tested should be integrated in Cocoon.

Because I am not working on a cocoon project right now, I cannot spend time
on it. I guess if it bothers someone enough he will fix it?

HTH,
Michael

-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 8-2-2003 10:05 
Subject: Re: A note about the  "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment"
...

I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
superior
to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it. Perhaps
it
will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.

Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
basically
rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an object
model
using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
(raw XML
or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me" and
it
just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence and
schema manipulation.

I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking about
using
it in the book that I am writing.

-- Robert



- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
environment" ...


Robert:

Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must
copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon (2.0/2.1)
and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice
when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its
own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
available in Tomcat at some point.

If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib tree,
add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest ...
Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.

I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO and
not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:

>> Hy, all;
>>
>> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this
mailing
>> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my
>> development
>> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
>> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
>> if someone could comment on this issue.
>>
>>
>> the tools collection
>> 
>> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
>> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
>>
>> free tools:
>> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)
>
> Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you spend money on
> support
> contracts. Cheaper. In addition, Solaris is primitive compared to
> Linux.
>
>> 2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)
>
> Duh ;)
>
>> 3.) tomcat 4.1.18
>
> Yes, but you can go one step further. Get JBoss with integrated
> tomcat. JBoss
> will handle all sorty of nasty things like deploying to clusters for
> you. As
> a bonus, you get the ability to integrate with EJB based programs.
>
>> 4.) cocoon-2.0.4
>
> 2.1 Hopefully soon!
>
>> 5.) eclipse
>
> See my previous message about eclopse vs netbeans.
>
>> 6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)
>
> URL ?
>
>> 7.) ant
>
> I have 15 million of them in my damn appartment, want a few? Oh ...
> you mean
> Jakarta ant? Ok, nevermind then. =) Im currently looking at Krysalis'
> extensions to ant. http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/quickstart.html
>
>
>> 8.) java-1.3.1 (sun JDK on all platforms)
>
> No no .. 1.4.1!! In 1.4 there are so many COOOL things that I
> couldnt
> live without anymore.
>
>> 9.) Secureway LDAP Server (i'll switch to Open LDAP soon)
>
> Im an LDAP idiot so Ill trust you there.
>
> Tools you didnt talk  about:
>
> CVS - Use it over clearcase. its powerful, free, and a pleasure to
use.
> BugZilla - Great program! Lousy lookin

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Jeremy Quinn]

On Saturday, Feb 8, 2003, at 19:28 Europe/London, Robert Simmons wrote:


The only other comment I have is that I'm still searching for a content
editor for Static XML. I'm currently investigating using adobe 
FrameMaker.
The idea being that I would have a WYSIWYG way of editing documents 
that any
one of my clients could use and I could write XSLT processors to 
convert that
to the web format using cocoon. Right now the current XML editors are 
too
primitive. Usable for a programmer but for a corporate document 
jockey, no
chance.


I don't have the $$$ to try Framemaker, but if you are prepared to put 
in the work, you could try XMLMind XMLEditor (XXE).

	

You need to write a config for XXE, for your docset.
You need to write CSS to display your XML.
You can use either XSD or DTD for validation.

If you want to use XSD (and use the editor for free) you must have a 
default namespace starting with 
'http://xmlmind.com/xmleditor/Schema/[yourdoc]', in your document root.

I have managed to produce a satisfactory environment for 'corporate 
document jockeys' to use.

regards Jeremy


-
Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
FAQ before posting. 

To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Sunday 09 February 2003 05:59, Robert Simmons wrote:
> Sun JDO JSR-12.

And I thought this is a Java specific specification of the ODMG model. No?


> - Original Message -
> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment"
> ...
>
>
> Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
> generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?
>
> Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the spec
> ... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference implementation
> does (like the classpath stuff).  Is it superior, I can't say for sure
> (but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss.  I like it
> because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between
> applications and what the server itself uses (making me less dependent
> on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).
>
> Cheers,
> Thor HW
>
> On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:
> > I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
> > superior
> > to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it. Perhaps
> > it
> > will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
> > http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.
> >
> > Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
> > basically
> > rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an object
> > model
> > using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
> > (raw XML
> > or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me" and
> > it
> > just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence and
> > schema manipulation.
> >
> > I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking
> > about using
> > it in the book that I am writing.
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
> > environment" ...
> >
> >
> > Robert:
> >
> > Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must
> > copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon (2.0/2.1)
> > and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice
> > when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its
> > own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
> > available in Tomcat at some point.
> >
> > If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib tree,
> > add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest ...
> > Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.
> >
> > I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO and
> > not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Thor HW
> >
> > On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
> >>> Hy, all;
> >>>
> >>> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this
> >>> mailing
> >>> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my
> >>> development
> >>> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
> >>> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
> >>> if someone could comment on this issue.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> the tools collection
> >>> 
> >>> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
> >>> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
> >>>
> >>> free tools:
> >>> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)
> >>
> >> Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you spend money on
> >> support
> >> contracts. Cheaper. In addition, Solaris is primitive compared to
> >> Linux.
> >>
> >>> 2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)
> >>
> >> Duh ;)
> >>
> >>> 3.) tomcat 4.1.18
> >>
> >> Yes, but you can go one step further. Get JBoss with integrate

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

Sun JDO JSR-12.


- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class
generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?

Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the spec
... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference implementation
does (like the classpath stuff).  Is it superior, I can't say for sure
(but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss.  I like it
because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between
applications and what the server itself uses (making me less dependent
on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:

> I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is
> superior
> to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it. Perhaps
> it
> will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
> http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.
>
> Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It
> basically
> rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an object
> model
> using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file
> (raw XML
> or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me" and
> it
> just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence and
> schema manipulation.
>
> I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking
> about using
> it in the book that I am writing.
>
> -- Robert
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
> Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development
> environment" ...
>
>
> Robert:
>
> Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must
> copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon (2.0/2.1)
> and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice
> when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its
> own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
> available in Tomcat at some point.
>
> If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib tree,
> add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest ...
> Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.
>
> I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO and
> not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?
>
> Cheers,
> Thor HW
>
> On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
>
>>> Hy, all;
>>>
>>> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this
>>> mailing
>>> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my
>>> development
>>> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
>>> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
>>> if someone could comment on this issue.
>>>
>>>
>>> the tools collection
>>> 
>>> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
>>> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
>>>
>>> free tools:
>>> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)
>>
>> Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you spend money on
>> support
>> contracts. Cheaper. In addition, Solaris is primitive compared to
>> Linux.
>>
>>> 2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)
>>
>> Duh ;)
>>
>>> 3.) tomcat 4.1.18
>>
>> Yes, but you can go one step further. Get JBoss with integrated
>> tomcat. JBoss
>> will handle all sorty of nasty things like deploying to clusters for
>> you. As
>> a bonus, you get the ability to integrate with EJB based programs.
>>
>>> 4.) cocoon-2.0.4
>>
>> 2.1 Hopefully soon!
>>
>>> 5.) eclipse
>>
>> See my previous message about eclopse vs netbeans.
>>
>>> 6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)
>>
>> URL ?
>>
>>> 7.) ant
>>
>> I have 15 million of them in my damn appartment, want a few? Oh ...
>> you mean
>> Jakarta ant? Ok, nevermind then. =) Im currently looking at Kr

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert]

Which JDO?  The ODMG JDO (like what Castor uses) or the after class 
generation muck about that is in the Sun JDO?

Jetty has been using JMX long before Tomcat, it fully supports the spec 
... and I'm thinking it supports it before the reference implementation 
does (like the classpath stuff).  Is it superior, I can't say for sure 
(but it is the default / preferred servlet engine in JBoss.  I like it 
because it takes me less screwing around with jar clashes between 
applications and what the server itself uses (making me less dependent 
on their support cycle and changes in where the JDK wants things).

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 01:05  PM, Robert Simmons wrote:

I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is 
superior
to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it. Perhaps 
it
will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.

Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It 
basically
rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an object 
model
using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file 
(raw XML
or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me" and 
it
just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence and
schema manipulation.

I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking 
about using
it in the book that I am writing.

-- Robert



- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development 
environment" ...


Robert:

Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must
copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon (2.0/2.1)
and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice
when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its
own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
available in Tomcat at some point.

If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib tree,
add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest ...
Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.

I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO and
not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:

Hy, all;

During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this 
mailing
list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my
development
environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
if someone could comment on this issue.


the tools collection

Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
at least partially by what i do for my customers...

free tools:
1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)

Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you spend money on
support
contracts. Cheaper. In addition, Solaris is primitive compared to
Linux.


2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)


Duh ;)


3.) tomcat 4.1.18


Yes, but you can go one step further. Get JBoss with integrated
tomcat. JBoss
will handle all sorty of nasty things like deploying to clusters for
you. As
a bonus, you get the ability to integrate with EJB based programs.


4.) cocoon-2.0.4


2.1 Hopefully soon!


5.) eclipse


See my previous message about eclopse vs netbeans.


6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)


URL ?


7.) ant


I have 15 million of them in my damn appartment, want a few? Oh ...
you mean
Jakarta ant? Ok, nevermind then. =) Im currently looking at Krysalis'
extensions to ant. http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/quickstart.html



8.) java-1.3.1 (sun JDK on all platforms)


No no .. 1.4.1!! In 1.4 there are so many COOOL things that I
couldnt
live without anymore.


9.) Secureway LDAP Server (i'll switch to Open LDAP soon)


Im an LDAP idiot so Ill trust you there.

Tools you didnt talk  about:

CVS - Use it over clearcase. its powerful, free, and a pleasure to 
use.
BugZilla - Great program! Lousy looking interface. We should start
a
project to port
it to cocoon. =) However bugzilla is a great and free
bugtracking system.

commercial tools:
10.) clearcase cms (see below)


Garbage.


11.) xml-spy


Good but confusing.


12.) several DB-Systems


all you need is Mysql baby.

Ones you didnt talk about:

13) Together control center. If you can afford it, it absolutely kills
any
other IDE on the planet.
14) eXcelon Stylus Studio. A great XML editor. It has a bonus of being
easy
to use and allot less confusing than XML Spy.
15) User editors for creating static content

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

I use JBoss but not jetty. Are you saying the Jetty-JBoss combo is superior
to the Tomcat-JBoss combo? If so, I will definitely go try it. Perhaps it
will fix my classpath in XSP issue. Bugzilla Reference:
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580.

Kodo JDO is an implementation of the JDO specification and MORE. It basically
rules. Go through the tutorials and you will love it. Create an object model
using your favorite problem domain. Then create the JDO mapping file (raw XML
or with IDE plug-in) and then just say "uhh, make a schema for me" and it
just does it. Its amazing! No more screwing around with persistence and
schema manipulation.

I have the commercial version of that product and will be talking about using
it in the book that I am writing.

-- Robert



- Original Message -
From: "Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


Robert:

Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must
copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon (2.0/2.1)
and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice
when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its
own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be
available in Tomcat at some point.

If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib tree,
add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest ...
Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.

I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO and
not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:

>> Hy, all;
>>
>> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this mailing
>> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my
>> development
>> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
>> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
>> if someone could comment on this issue.
>>
>>
>> the tools collection
>> 
>> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
>> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
>>
>> free tools:
>> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)
>
> Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you spend money on
> support
> contracts. Cheaper. In addition, Solaris is primitive compared to
> Linux.
>
>> 2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)
>
> Duh ;)
>
>> 3.) tomcat 4.1.18
>
> Yes, but you can go one step further. Get JBoss with integrated
> tomcat. JBoss
> will handle all sorty of nasty things like deploying to clusters for
> you. As
> a bonus, you get the ability to integrate with EJB based programs.
>
>> 4.) cocoon-2.0.4
>
> 2.1 Hopefully soon!
>
>> 5.) eclipse
>
> See my previous message about eclopse vs netbeans.
>
>> 6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)
>
> URL ?
>
>> 7.) ant
>
> I have 15 million of them in my damn appartment, want a few? Oh ...
> you mean
> Jakarta ant? Ok, nevermind then. =) Im currently looking at Krysalis'
> extensions to ant. http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/quickstart.html
>
>
>> 8.) java-1.3.1 (sun JDK on all platforms)
>
> No no .. 1.4.1!! In 1.4 there are so many COOOL things that I
> couldnt
> live without anymore.
>
>> 9.) Secureway LDAP Server (i'll switch to Open LDAP soon)
>
> Im an LDAP idiot so Ill trust you there.
>
> Tools you didnt talk  about:
>
> CVS - Use it over clearcase. its powerful, free, and a pleasure to use.
> BugZilla - Great program! Lousy looking interface. We should start
> a
> project to port
> it to cocoon. =) However bugzilla is a great and free
> bugtracking system.
>
>> commercial tools:
>> 10.) clearcase cms (see below)
>
> Garbage.
>
>> 11.) xml-spy
>
> Good but confusing.
>
>> 12.) several DB-Systems
>
> all you need is Mysql baby.
>
> Ones you didnt talk about:
>
> 13) Together control center. If you can afford it, it absolutely kills
> any
> other IDE on the planet.
> 14) eXcelon Stylus Studio. A great XML editor. It has a bonus of being
> easy
> to use and allot less confusing than XML Spy.
> 15) User editors for creating static content. (FrameMaker? OpenOffice?
> Im
> still working on this one)
> 16) Kodo JDO. Dont leave home without it. All that nasty persistence
> stuff
> just goes PO

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Thor Heinrichs-Wolpert]

Robert:

Have a look at Jetty, or JBoss/Jetty (aka JBossWeb).  No nasty "must 
copy things to endorsed directories, etc.)".  You take Cocoon (2.0/2.1) 
and drop it in your deploy directory and POOF it's there.  It's nice 
when the servlet engine actually uses the libs you define and not its 
own first as the default ... isn't that in the spec ... and will be 
available in Tomcat at some point.

If you want any extra libs in cocoon-2.1 you add them in the lib tree, 
add them to jars.xml and the cocoon build adds them to the Manifest ... 
Jetty/Jboss just eats 'em up in the right place.

I'm off to look for Kudo JDO (which hopefully follows the ODMG JDO and 
not Sun's) ... how does this rank against Castor or Jakarta-OJB ?

Cheers,
Thor HW

On Saturday, February 8, 2003, at 11:42  AM, Robert Simmons wrote:

Hy, all;

During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this mailing
list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my 
development
environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
if someone could comment on this issue.


the tools collection

Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
at least partially by what i do for my customers...

free tools:
1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)

Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you spend money on 
support
contracts. Cheaper. In addition, Solaris is primitive compared to 
Linux.

2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)


Duh ;)


3.) tomcat 4.1.18


Yes, but you can go one step further. Get JBoss with integrated 
tomcat. JBoss
will handle all sorty of nasty things like deploying to clusters for 
you. As
a bonus, you get the ability to integrate with EJB based programs.

4.) cocoon-2.0.4


2.1 Hopefully soon!


5.) eclipse


See my previous message about eclopse vs netbeans.


6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)


URL ?


7.) ant


I have 15 million of them in my damn appartment, want a few? Oh ... 
you mean
Jakarta ant? Ok, nevermind then. =) Im currently looking at Krysalis'
extensions to ant. http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/quickstart.html


8.) java-1.3.1 (sun JDK on all platforms)


No no .. 1.4.1!! In 1.4 there are so many COOOL things that I 
couldnt
live without anymore.

9.) Secureway LDAP Server (i'll switch to Open LDAP soon)


Im an LDAP idiot so Ill trust you there.

Tools you didnt talk  about:

CVS - Use it over clearcase. its powerful, free, and a pleasure to use.
BugZilla - Great program! Lousy looking interface. We should start 
a
project to port
it to cocoon. =) However bugzilla is a great and free
bugtracking system.

commercial tools:
10.) clearcase cms (see below)


Garbage.


11.) xml-spy


Good but confusing.


12.) several DB-Systems


all you need is Mysql baby.

Ones you didnt talk about:

13) Together control center. If you can afford it, it absolutely kills 
any
other IDE on the planet.
14) eXcelon Stylus Studio. A great XML editor. It has a bonus of being 
easy
to use and allot less confusing than XML Spy.
15) User editors for creating static content. (FrameMaker? OpenOffice? 
Im
still working on this one)
16) Kodo JDO. Dont leave home without it. All that nasty persistence 
stuff
just goes POOOF.


notes about the collection
--

* All tools mentioned above fit tightly together.
   I use apache/tomcat since about three years now.
   The above combination also works fine with SSL.

* After i got eclipse setup in tomcat debugging mode,
   i could at least double my productivity.
   Thanks to the tomcat site it was a matter of seconds to
   get it up see:

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idedev-rdtomcat.html

* I also managed to setup eclipse with Cocoon in less than 10
   minutes. OK, i did a lousy trick, but for debugging and
   learning how cocoon internals  work it's absolutley
   satisfying...


Shouldnt be tough, just run tomcat (or JBoss) in debug mode with a 
socket
attach. Then you can remote attach to the socket and you are on your 
way!


* about SCM in general and Clearcase in particular:
   Clearcase is a quite expensive and known to be very slow
   SCM tool. On the other hand it is super easy to integrate.
   Due to exposing the data within a "virtual filesystem" you
   just don't see it from the users viewpoint (except checkin
   checkout your files).
   Having the clearcase integration kit for eclipse up and
   running comes near to a developers dream. I hope, after
   Rational has been incorporated into IBM, clearcase or a
   derivate of it will eventually find it's way into the
   ongoing eclipse efforts to build just another SCM. See

 http://www.eclipse.org/technology/index.html
 follow the link to "stellation" at the bottom of the page.

   Another interesting new SCM could be subversion from

 http://subversion.tigris.org/ ...

   All of these SCM's provide directory versioning

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

> Hy, all;
>
> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this mailing
> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my development
> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
> if someone could comment on this issue.
>
>
> the tools collection
> 
> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
>
> free tools:
> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)

Go linux. Instead of spending money on licenses, you spend money on support
contracts. Cheaper. In addition, Solaris is primitive compared to Linux.

> 2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)

Duh ;)

> 3.) tomcat 4.1.18

Yes, but you can go one step further. Get JBoss with integrated tomcat. JBoss
will handle all sorty of nasty things like deploying to clusters for you. As
a bonus, you get the ability to integrate with EJB based programs.

> 4.) cocoon-2.0.4

2.1 Hopefully soon!

> 5.) eclipse

See my previous message about eclopse vs netbeans.

> 6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)

URL ?

> 7.) ant

I have 15 million of them in my damn appartment, want a few? Oh ... you mean
Jakarta ant? Ok, nevermind then. =) Im currently looking at Krysalis'
extensions to ant. http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/quickstart.html


> 8.) java-1.3.1 (sun JDK on all platforms)

No no .. 1.4.1!! In 1.4 there are so many COOOL things that I couldnt
live without anymore.

> 9.) Secureway LDAP Server (i'll switch to Open LDAP soon)

Im an LDAP idiot so Ill trust you there.

Tools you didnt talk  about:

CVS - Use it over clearcase. its powerful, free, and a pleasure to use.
BugZilla - Great program! Lousy looking interface. We should start a
project to port
it to cocoon. =) However bugzilla is a great and free
bugtracking system.

> commercial tools:
> 10.) clearcase cms (see below)

Garbage.

> 11.) xml-spy

Good but confusing.

> 12.) several DB-Systems

all you need is Mysql baby.

Ones you didnt talk about:

13) Together control center. If you can afford it, it absolutely kills any
other IDE on the planet.
14) eXcelon Stylus Studio. A great XML editor. It has a bonus of being easy
to use and allot less confusing than XML Spy.
15) User editors for creating static content. (FrameMaker? OpenOffice? Im
still working on this one)
16) Kodo JDO. Dont leave home without it. All that nasty persistence stuff
just goes POOOF.

>
> notes about the collection
> --
>
> * All tools mentioned above fit tightly together.
>I use apache/tomcat since about three years now.
>The above combination also works fine with SSL.
>
> * After i got eclipse setup in tomcat debugging mode,
>i could at least double my productivity.
>Thanks to the tomcat site it was a matter of seconds to
>get it up see:
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idedev-rdtomcat.html
>
> * I also managed to setup eclipse with Cocoon in less than 10
>minutes. OK, i did a lousy trick, but for debugging and
>learning how cocoon internals  work it's absolutley
>satisfying...

Shouldnt be tough, just run tomcat (or JBoss) in debug mode with a socket
attach. Then you can remote attach to the socket and you are on your way!

>
> * about SCM in general and Clearcase in particular:
>Clearcase is a quite expensive and known to be very slow
>SCM tool. On the other hand it is super easy to integrate.
>Due to exposing the data within a "virtual filesystem" you
>just don't see it from the users viewpoint (except checkin
>checkout your files).
>Having the clearcase integration kit for eclipse up and
>running comes near to a developers dream. I hope, after
>Rational has been incorporated into IBM, clearcase or a
>derivate of it will eventually find it's way into the
>ongoing eclipse efforts to build just another SCM. See
>
>  http://www.eclipse.org/technology/index.html
>  follow the link to "stellation" at the bottom of the page.
>
>Another interesting new SCM could be subversion from
>
>  http://subversion.tigris.org/ ...
>
>All of these SCM's provide directory versioning
>(something once you got it, you'll never want to miss again...)
>
> * I happen to use XML-Spy since a couple of years now.
>Maybe i just got used to it. I like it, although i have
>to pay for the license. At least it helps me getting
>my XSCHEMA's generated in no time.
>
>
> My personal SAXESS story ...
> 
> SAXESS stands for "System AXESS", just to get this clear;-)
> I write this down, mainly because i got very very satisfied
> with this especially when i compare this to what i was used
> to in former times when open source was something, nobody
> ever heard of...
>
> I'm running my webserver on some linux box and my webapps
> on solaris driven by tomcat. All of my code 

Re: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...

[Robert Simmons]

I find eclipse to be a bit too "pushy" for my tastes. The NetBeans platform
is a bit more open. In addition the eclipse XML editor is a little primitive.
The NetBeans one at least closes tags and offers various other functionality.
Additionally the eclipse release schedule is almost wholly managed by IBM
which makes it a hit or miss thing. The last straw is the relatively limited
plug-in availability for eclipse. It took me hours just to find a site with a
full eclipse module catalog.

The only other comment I have is that I'm still searching for a content
editor for Static XML. I'm currently investigating using adobe FrameMaker.
The idea being that I would have a WYSIWYG way of editing documents that any
one of my clients could use and I could write XSLT processors to convert that
to the web format using cocoon. Right now the current XML editors are too
primitive. Usable for a programmer but for a corporate document jockey, no
chance.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 12:46 PM
Subject: A note about the "best(?) (cocoon-) development environment" ...


> Hy, all;
>
> During the last months of activities i learned a lot from this mailing
> list. while i followed the discussions i started getting my development
> environment a bit up to date.  I plan to setup a Wiki page on this
> theme. Although this may be a bit off topic, it still would be great,
> if someone could comment on this issue.
>
>
> the tools collection
> 
> Here is what i have put together so far. Of course this is driven
> at least partially by what i do for my customers...
>
> free tools:
> 1.) OS: linux and solaris (maybe a mater of taste)
> 2.) apache 1.3.26 (mod_jk2, mod_SSL)
> 3.) tomcat 4.1.18
> 4.) cocoon-2.0.4
> 5.) eclipse
> 6.) sunbow eclipse tools (xml/sitemap)
> 7.) ant
> 8.) java-1.3.1 (sun JDK on all platforms)
> 9.) Secureway LDAP Server (i'll switch to Open LDAP soon)
>
> commercial tools:
> 10.) clearcase cms (see below)
> 11.) xml-spy
> 12.) several DB-Systems
>
> notes about the collection
> --
>
> * All tools mentioned above fit tightly together.
>I use apache/tomcat since about three years now.
>The above combination also works fine with SSL.
>
> * After i got eclipse setup in tomcat debugging mode,
>i could at least double my productivity.
>Thanks to the tomcat site it was a matter of seconds to
>get it up see:
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idedev-rdtomcat.html
>
> * I also managed to setup eclipse with Cocoon in less than 10
>minutes. OK, i did a lousy trick, but for debugging and
>learning how cocoon internals  work it's absolutley
>satisfying...
>
> * about SCM in general and Clearcase in particular:
>Clearcase is a quite expensive and known to be very slow
>SCM tool. On the other hand it is super easy to integrate.
>Due to exposing the data within a "virtual filesystem" you
>just don't see it from the users viewpoint (except checkin
>checkout your files).
>Having the clearcase integration kit for eclipse up and
>running comes near to a developers dream. I hope, after
>Rational has been incorporated into IBM, clearcase or a
>derivate of it will eventually find it's way into the
>ongoing eclipse efforts to build just another SCM. See
>
>  http://www.eclipse.org/technology/index.html
>  follow the link to "stellation" at the bottom of the page.
>
>Another interesting new SCM could be subversion from
>
>  http://subversion.tigris.org/ ...
>
>All of these SCM's provide directory versioning
>(something once you got it, you'll never want to miss again...)
>
> * I happen to use XML-Spy since a couple of years now.
>Maybe i just got used to it. I like it, although i have
>to pay for the license. At least it helps me getting
>my XSCHEMA's generated in no time.
>
>
> My personal SAXESS story ...
> 
> SAXESS stands for "System AXESS", just to get this clear;-)
> I write this down, mainly because i got very very satisfied
> with this especially when i compare this to what i was used
> to in former times when open source was something, nobody
> ever heard of...
>
> I'm running my webserver on some linux box and my webapps
> on solaris driven by tomcat. All of my code is dropped
> into a company wide  multiplatform SCM system. I'm developing
> with the eclipse IDE right on my Desktop machine. I'm running
> Cocoon for the visualisation part of my projects. This is just
> a great XML publishing tool, and i'm still only using the
> basics of it for now. By saving my work to the SCM,
> my testwebapp gets autodeployed on a solaris box, which
> happens to be our testenvironment. I can setup remote debuggig
> sessions from my desktop directly into the heart of my
> webapplications...
> Once i checked in my work into the SCM, my webapp gets
>