Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
On Mar 16, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: . I am just curious to understand how people think and decide such things in March 2015. Here's my take on this: My particular vertical market need is for a very small computer that: -Boots up upon receiving an external power (charging) signal. -Customizable boot code -Runs Linux and can run whatever full-blown Linux tool/app we need at startup/boot without any user intervention -Can acquire and use a GPS signal at 4Hz or better. -Has an audio input (headset/mic jack) -Has Wi-Fi -Has accelerometers -Has at least 8GB storage The GTA02 does a fine job at the above, the external GPS antenna capability is a bonus. That's why we bought hundreds of them (everything Openmoko had left in 2010), for one particular vertical market use. What (else) would we need in a GTA05 ? -Better GPS (10Hz, Glonass, Galileo, BeiDou, offline A-GPS) -LTE or at least 4G-ish capability -GSM Certification to operate in major countries -Dual SIM card capability -Dual internal MicroSD cards (RAID) -Retain external GPS antenna port -Support Invensense IMU chip for advanced motion processing (9 DOF) -Barometer/Temp sensor -Infrared blaster -RFID/NFC capability -Fingerprint scanner -Built-in GPIOs with externally-accessible connector -USB OTG, USB 3.0 ? -Built-In Ethernet capability -Built-in A/D converter with externally accessible connector -Built-In RS-232/RS-422 ports, externally accessible -Built-in camera with an external port to add a remote cameras (say up to 3 meters from device). Basically multiple USB 2.0 ports at a minimum. -A decent-sized multi-touch or Glove-Friendly screen (two versions ?), the GTA02 screen is much too small by modern standards (we only use the screen for stuff like Wi-Fi password data entry by the end user) -HDMI outputs (support two external screens) -Speakers (like all phones) -Offer various battery sizes (thicker backs). For the external connector for serial and GPIO, flat round contact pads with a docking station on the back like Garmin uses on many units. I believe such an open device would be highly successful in a Kickstarter campaign. The M2M (Machine-to-Machine) market is huge. Such a device would have broad appeal. Size is not very important, the capability/connectivity: Yes! Ubuntu phone, but for true hardware hackers and companies with vertical needs that are not met with current smartphones or by Raspberry Pi or Arduino platforms. GTA04's limited 1Hz GPS was a killer for us... didn't bother finding USB camera options for the USB OTG on the GTA04 as a result, nor the mysterious built-in camera option (not ideal for us, remote camera is what we need). The M2M folks want low-level hardware support (block diagrams, schematics, etc...) and open software drivers (abandonware is the problem here from commercial vendors). Offer a version that's a smartphone and a bigger version that's basically a small computer with a built-in very smart UPS, with the ability to add expansion cards for non-mobile uses. Personally I am not a purist, I don't mind inevitable closed aspects of some hardware/firmware that don't have open equivalents (the Invensense IMU stuff or LTE modem for example). Nothing on the market offers what I'm looking for... and I'm sure I'm not alone seeking the Holy Grail of connected small mobile computer that's not iOS or Android. The current proposed Ubuntu smartphones all have serious flaws (no microSD on the Meizu and on the EQ 4.5 they can't even bother mentioning which exact Mediatek processor they are using !!!) and pretty much none of the expandability and interface capability that I'd like to see in the device. When you can't even publish a proper detailed hardware spec sheet for your Ubuntu phone, you know lower level support is going to be an absolute nightmare. That's what Ubuntu Phone is now. Better yet, the phone could have an internal small expansion slot with routing to the external connector pads. Need a bizarre interface ? Build a board and you are done, no internal soldering mods required. I would expect demand for such a device from the Drone market alone to be massive. More realistic than the current Phoneblocs-type project. An open phone with a bunch of expansion ports. How hard can that be ? What would it take ? $5M ? $10M ? $30M ? -Pascal ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free phone: smart or not?
are you using your FR because it's free or because it's a smartphone? I don't really use my FR for the following reasons: - I don't use its phone part because it's not Free (I guess by now I could try to use your firmware to fix that part) and because I don't like the idea of being actively tracked by my cell phone provider (and I hate the providers here, who all force you to sign contracts because they suck so much that all users would otherwise run away), so I'd want to turn the cell-phone part OFF most of the time. - I do want to use the smartphone side, such as GPS, book reader, email reader, Jabber client, web browser. I want this more than a cell-phone, really. But the FR's hardware is too limited for that in my experience (e.g. the screen is too small for a resistive touchscreen), and the software is not reliable enough. Stefan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free phone: smart or not?
El día Monday, March 16, 2015 a las 07:31:52PM +, Spacefalcon the Outlaw escribió: g...@unixarea.de wrote: I'm using since 2008 the FR as my one and only cellphone. This is not lying, it is just a fact. And I do not know any other person from this list who is doing so. Nick openmoko-commun...@njw.me.uk followed: I am too. The only thing that makes me tempted to switch phones is=20 redphone or chatsecure, basically. The GTA02 sucks, in some ways,=20 but I have no plans to buy a less free phone than it, so I'll stay=20 where I am for now. I am very glad to see a couple of people using their Freerunners and not switching to anything less free. But I just can't help but wonder: are you using your FR because it's free or because it's a smartphone? In other words, ... I do not exactly know what a 'smartphone' is. I use the FR because it is a Linux 'server' in pocket size, I can do with it what I want and I can phone or send SMS with it. And I have OpenStreet maps on it, after some time the FR knows where I am with GPS. More I do not need. I accept that the FR is not fully 'free' due to some low level binary blobs, but even with them it is more free then my microwave at home. I only see dying my FR: sometimes it does not receive SM, soemtimes it does not wakeup from suspend (both are SHR bugs, I think, but nobody fixes them); and someday something of the hardware will break for ever... and then, what I should do? I love my FR, even if it looks like a brick (which it is not) and I love this FR project for having something else in my hands, something which all the stupid folks do not have while they say about their phone it does not import me when it is spying me and phoning home ... stupid people will use smartphones, I will not matthias -- Matthias Apitz, g...@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-170-4527211 Wenn der Mensch von den Umständen gebildet wird, so muß man die Umstände menschlich bilden. Si el hombre es formado por las circunstancias entonces es necesario formar humanamente las circunstancias, Karl Marx in Die heilige Familie / La sagrada familia ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free phone: smart or not?
Hey, I don't talk on phone. I just don't talk. I chat. I email. That's why I don't need a dumbphone. I need a device with a full operating system so I can compile my preferred applications for it. If I need a gsm then I need it to get an Internet connection. Then I can use ssl/tor for chatting, browsing, whatever. On Mon, 16 Mar 2015, Spacefalcon the Outlaw wrote: g...@unixarea.de wrote: I'm using since 2008 the FR as my one and only cellphone. This is not lying, it is just a fact. And I do not know any other person from this list who is doing so. Nick openmoko-commun...@njw.me.uk followed: I am too. The only thing that makes me tempted to switch phones is=20 redphone or chatsecure, basically. The GTA02 sucks, in some ways,=20 but I have no plans to buy a less free phone than it, so I'll stay=20 where I am for now. I am very glad to see a couple of people using their Freerunners and not switching to anything less free. But I just can't help but wonder: are you using your FR because it's free or because it's a smartphone? In other words, if there were a phone just as free as the FR, i.e., full source code for everything (including the GSM radio interface) without any binary blobs, full hardware schematics, free bootloader w/o any locks etc, but a dumbphone instead of a smartphone - a small, non-touch-sensitive LCD, a traditional numeric button pad for dialing and T9 texting, a processor with just enough horsepower to make/receive calls and send/receive SMS and not one iota more, and an OS-less firmware architecture optimized specifically for those functions - would you wish to use such a phone? What I find almost tragic about the history of this community is that someone effectively jumped the gun on evolution: produced a free smartphone (Openmoko) without producing a free dumbphone first. Some of us are life-long dumbphone users, but are very unhappy about the fact that all existing dumbphones are 100% closed and proprietary, with no ability for an end user to fix functional bugs herself or to make her own changes to the user interface code in the firmware. I currently use my Freerunner as a development platform and nothing more: I use its modem block as a BUV (bring-up vehicle) to run my experimental FreeCalypso firmware before porting the latter to dumbphone hardware targets. But I don't use it as my personal phone with an end user hat on. I don't do the latter because I have too much intrinsic personal revulsion against the idea of using an entire second processor running a full-blown GNU/Linux OS just to make a phone call - when I know full well that this functionality has been very successfully implemented on a tiny ARM7TDMI processor @ 52 MHz with a total of 4 MiB of flash, 256 KiB of fast SRAM and 512 KiB of slow SRAM (specific numbers from Mot C139) running a real-time firmware environment without any full-blown OS. So I wonder how other Freerunner users feel about this issue: do you actually *like* the fact that it is a smartphone, or would you rather use a dumbphone, but are using the FR and tolerating its smart aspects because no free dumbphone currently exists? VLR, SF ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
Hi, Am 16.03.2015 um 13:40 schrieb Neal H. Walfield n...@walfield.org: At Mon, 16 Mar 2015 10:43:51 +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: For our community products we have: because 1, there is no 2 and because 2 there is no 1. What makes the difference? Some investor (Ubuntu) did cover the risk of buying the first set of thousands of eggs and was able to get the price down (higher quantity buyer). My impression of the GTA04 marketing message is: the more people who buy, the cheaper the phone will be! Unfortunately, it hasn't been very clear to me how much cheaper. I suspect that the same is true for other people, particularly those who are not following the project as closely as I have. If I knew that the GTA04 could be produced for 300 Euro if say, 2000, were produced, that could help me convince other people. Of course, if someone is willing to buy today, they might not be willing to wait a year. Well, there is a rough indication http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04A5 • the final price is expected to be (incl. 19% German VAT) • 599 EUR if we reach 100 production units • 549 EUR if we reach 200 production units • 499 EUR if we reach 500 production units but we will try everything to get below this target! But EUR/USD exchange rate development is beyond our control One way around this is to use the strategy that kickstarter uses: only fund it if a threshold is reached. We also have that. The threshold is 100 units preordered (where each pre-order voucher at 100 EUR or above counts for one unit). This is equivalent to a threshold of 1 EUR which could be used to secure some critical components (e.g. 3G Modem, memory chips, WiFi module). If we don’t reach this threshold before the 3G modem really becomes unobtainable, the campaign ends unfunded. We just don’t have a fixed date for the campaign. Just a thought… Any thought is always welcome! Thanks, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
Hi *, I think it's difficult to gain interest of new users if a new user must buy an old casing first of being able to use the new hardware also, old casings are a limited resource and are awful to look compared to newer and slimmer styles moreover the old casings eventually need to be modified (drilled) by the final user to host the camera just my 2cents, A21 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
Quoth g...@unixarea.de: I'm using since 2008 the FR as my one and only cellphone. This is not lying, it is just a fact. And I do not know any other person from this list who is doing so. I am too. The only thing that makes me tempted to switch phones is redphone or chatsecure, basically. The GTA02 sucks, in some ways, but I have no plans to buy a less free phone than it, so I'll stay where I am for now. If my GTA02 broke I'd probably get whatever phone was best supported by the replicant project, second hand, but it's a pleasingly solid piece of hardware :) Nick signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
Hi, I had not planned to make it a statement-reply session, but it has converted into one :) Am 16.03.2015 um 14:47 schrieb Alfa21-mobile freerun...@my.is.it: Hi *, I think it’s difficult to gain interest of new users if a new user must buy an old casing first of being able to use the new hardware also, old casings are a limited resource and are awful to look compared to newer and slimmer styles Well, that is not the goal of the GTA04A5 project. It was focussed right from the beginning (and therefore still is) to give those who already have a GTA02 a much more powerful processor and some newer peripherals. Like a replacement motor for an old car. moreover the old casings eventually need to be modified (drilled) by the final user to host the camera just my 2cents, A21 BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
Hi Ed, Am 16.03.2015 um 09:58 schrieb Ed Kapitein e...@kapitein.org: SNIP Interesting. Makes me curious why you both spend money on that one instead of e.g. the GTA04A5? Any answer is valid - and no need to be polite… I am just curious to understand how people think and decide such things in March 2015. BR, Nikolaus Hi Nikolaus, A couple of things made me decide to buy the ubuntu phone. thanks! -1 The price. for me it is afordable at 170 euro vs +/- 600 euro for a neo900 and slightly less for the GTA04A5 -2 The device is in mass production, compared to the volumes of GTA04 or neo900 well, this is the simple henegg situation that we face for some years. For our community products we have: because 1, there is no 2 and because 2 there is no 1. What makes the difference? Some investor (Ubuntu) did cover the risk of buying the first set of thousands of eggs and was able to get the price down (higher quantity buyer). They can, because Ubuntu is not only a free (as in free beer) OS but Canonical sells maintenance services (ubuntu advantage) to get the money to run their operations. This type of services is something our community lacks. And is even beyond the openmoko approach (because it focusses on the client side while the money is with servers, clouds and content). -3 Development is done by a huge team, with a long track record in development. Well, the team here was big - but has become smaller and smaller. I just wonder if they have a longer track record than the Openmoko community. Hm. Makes me think about: * would people be interested in a real maintained Openmoko distribution * combining everything we have (kernel, Replicant, QtMoko and other choices) * not only for Openmoko devices but others as well to get a broader audience * regularily maintained by fixed team * those who spend let’s say 5 EUR / month get bug fixes and updates first -4 Using old components from the GTA02 to build a GTA04 will get me a new phone with and 8 year old screen, 8 year old battery, 8 year old case etc. This is mostly a consequence of 1 and 2. A GTA05 could be much more modern and made out of all-new components. But because of 1 and 2 there is no GTA05. But i really appreciate what all members from the gta02 community have done in the past and are still doing today! Big thanks from me. Ed Big thanks for sharing your thoughts. Our key problem is that we don’t have a big budget to spend for a new GTA05 that can compete with others. BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
On Mon 16 March 2015 10:43:51 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Our key problem is that we don’t have a big budget to spend for a new GTA05 that can compete with others. The Neo900 UG long term business plan has perspectives to change that, eventually :-) cheers jOERG -- () ascii ribbon campaign /\ against html e-mail - against proprietary attachments http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
At Mon, 16 Mar 2015 10:43:51 +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: For our community products we have: because 1, there is no 2 and because 2 there is no 1. What makes the difference? Some investor (Ubuntu) did cover the risk of buying the first set of thousands of eggs and was able to get the price down (higher quantity buyer). My impression of the GTA04 marketing message is: the more people who buy, the cheaper the phone will be! Unfortunately, it hasn't been very clear to me how much cheaper. I suspect that the same is true for other people, particularly those who are not following the project as closely as I have. If I knew that the GTA04 could be produced for 300 Euro if say, 2000, were produced, that could help me convince other people. Of course, if someone is willing to buy today, they might not be willing to wait a year. One way around this is to use the strategy that kickstarter uses: only fund it if a threshold is reached. Just a thought... :) Neal ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
Am 16.03.2015 um 15:38 schrieb Alfa21-mobile freerun...@my.is.it: Well, that is not the goal of the GTA04A5 project. It was focussed right from the beginning (and therefore still is) to give those who already have a GTA02 a much more powerful processor and some newer peripherals. Like a replacement motor for an old car. I know, and also for me it's interesting a new engine for an old car, but you will never exit from the 12 statement if new users will remain cut off from the game, imho. your solution is directed only to a subset of older users and this can hardly embrace a wide audience that allows to lower the final prices from my pov, you are cutting out both: - fresh users, potentially interested in getting a real open phone - old users, interested in getting an open phone competitive on price It looks as if you are thinking along a “one solution fits everyone” strategy. GTA04A5 is a solution for some group which is completely feasible, no dream, no vapourware. It is a tested design and just needs to be financed to be produced. Of course it does not make everybody happy. But it does also not exclude to have something different (GTA05…) in the future. But it must be clear that a GTA05 needs a lot of work, prefinancing of engineering and time (expect 1 year to develop from scratch including injection moulds). So this also does not make everyone happy. And it is much less lilkely to happen at all because it needs this prefinancing stuff… Therefore we are not cutting out anyone - I am simply honest not to promise the impossible (competitive price and new and immediately available). I prefer to say what is possible and reachable. Like a low hanging fruit: GTA04A5. -1 The price. for me it is afordable at 170 euro vs +/- 600 euro for a neo900 and slightly less for the GTA04A5 -2 The device is in mass production, compared to the volumes of GTA04 or neo900 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
Well, that is not the goal of the GTA04A5 project. It was focussed right from the beginning (and therefore still is) to give those who already have a GTA02 a much more powerful processor and some newer peripherals. Like a replacement motor for an old car. I know, and also for me it's interesting a new engine for an old car, but you will never exit from the 12 statement if new users will remain cut off from the game, imho. your solution is directed only to a subset of older users and this can hardly embrace a wide audience that allows to lower the final prices from my pov, you are cutting out both: - fresh users, potentially interested in getting a real open phone - old users, interested in getting an open phone competitive on price -1 The price. for me it is afordable at 170 euro vs +/- 600 euro for a neo900 and slightly less for the GTA04A5 -2 The device is in mass production, compared to the volumes of GTA04 or neo900 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
Hi I'm using since 2008 the FR as my one and only cellphone. This is not lying, it is just a fact. And I do not know any other person from this list who is doing so. I will continue using the GTA02 until finaly breaks something, display or board, and will hope to update it. How and when such an update is possible? I did it too until the last summer when audio and battery issues became an inconvenience during my work days. I searched for help but with no success. Since then I'm using some dumbphones. If I should buy a new phone my choice is restricted to the GTA04, the Jolla phone and the Ubuntu phone. But a budget limit and the readiness of the device for the everyday usage constitute constraints to reckon with. Is good to see some life in this ML (: thank you all. Ciao Francesco ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
On Mon 16 March 2015 22:00:42 Pascal Gosselin wrote: On Mar 16, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: . I am just curious to understand how people think and decide such things in March 2015. Here's my take on this: My particular vertical market need is for a very small computer that: -Boots up upon receiving an external power (charging) signal. -Customizable boot code -Runs Linux and can run whatever full-blown Linux tool/app we need at startup/boot without any user intervention -Can acquire and use a GPS signal at 4Hz or better. -Has an audio input (headset/mic jack) -Has Wi-Fi -Has accelerometers -Has at least 8GB storage The GTA02 does a fine job at the above, the external GPS antenna capability is a bonus. That's why we bought hundreds of them (everything Openmoko had left in 2010), for one particular vertical market use. What (else) would we need in a GTA05 ? -Better GPS (10Hz, Glonass, Galileo, BeiDou, offline A-GPS) -LTE or at least 4G-ish capability -GSM Certification to operate in major countries -Dual SIM card capability -Dual internal MicroSD cards (RAID) -Retain external GPS antenna port -Support Invensense IMU chip for advanced motion processing (9 DOF) -Barometer/Temp sensor -Infrared blaster -RFID/NFC capability -Fingerprint scanner -Built-in GPIOs with externally-accessible connector -USB OTG, USB 3.0 ? -Built-In Ethernet capability -Built-in A/D converter with externally accessible connector -Built-In RS-232/RS-422 ports, externally accessible -Built-in camera with an external port to add a remote cameras (say up to 3 meters from device). Basically multiple USB 2.0 ports at a minimum. -A decent-sized multi-touch or Glove-Friendly screen (two versions ?), the GTA02 screen is much too small by modern standards (we only use the screen for stuff like Wi-Fi password data entry by the end user) -HDMI outputs (support two external screens) -Speakers (like all phones) -Offer various battery sizes (thicker backs). Neo900 is _almost_ there already ;-) STEP2 will definitely be http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1444602highlight=step2#post1444602 For the external connector for serial and GPIO, flat round contact pads with a docking station on the back like Garmin uses on many units. I believe such an open device would be highly successful in a Kickstarter campaign. The M2M (Machine-to-Machine) market is huge. Such a device would have broad appeal. Size is not very important, the capability/connectivity: Yes! Ubuntu phone, but for true hardware hackers and companies with vertical needs that are not met with current smartphones or by Raspberry Pi or Arduino platforms. GTA04's limited 1Hz GPS was a killer for us... didn't bother finding USB camera options for the USB OTG on the GTA04 as a result, nor the mysterious built-in camera option (not ideal for us, remote camera is what we need). The M2M folks want low-level hardware support (block diagrams, schematics, etc...) and open software drivers (abandonware is the problem here from commercial vendors). Offer a version that's a smartphone and a bigger version that's basically a small computer with a built-in very smart UPS, with the ability to add expansion cards for non-mobile uses. Personally I am not a purist, I don't mind inevitable closed aspects of some hardware/firmware that don't have open equivalents (the Invensense IMU stuff or LTE modem for example). Nothing on the market offers what I'm looking for... and I'm sure I'm not alone seeking the Holy Grail of connected small mobile computer that's not iOS or Android. The current proposed Ubuntu smartphones all have serious flaws (no microSD on the Meizu and on the EQ 4.5 they can't even bother mentioning which exact Mediatek processor they are using !!!) and pretty much none of the expandability and interface capability that I'd like to see in the device. When you can't even publish a proper detailed hardware spec sheet for your Ubuntu phone, you know lower level support is going to be an absolute nightmare. That's what Ubuntu Phone is now. Better yet, the phone could have an internal small expansion slot with routing to the external connector pads. Need a bizarre interface ? Build a board and you are done, no internal soldering mods required. Neo900 has HackerBus for now: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1461954#post1461954 I know it's all not up to par with your requirements but you at least see we're heading into right direction :-) I would expect demand for such a device from the Drone market alone to be massive. More realistic than the current Phoneblocs-type project. An open phone with a bunch of expansion ports. How hard can that be ? What would it take ? $5M ? $10M ? $30M ? STEP2 will need sth like that, yes. Going to start as soon as Neo900 proofed that we actually can do cheers jOERG -- () ascii ribbon
Re: Free phone: smart or not?
Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote: I do not exactly know what a 'smartphone' is. Harald Welte gave a clear technical definition in one of his presentations: a smartphone is a phone that has two separate processors for the application and baseband functions. It's a clear technical definition independent of any marketing terms, and by this definition all GTA0x devices are smartphones. I use the FR because it is a Linux 'server' in pocket size, I can do with it what I want and I can phone or send SMS with it. And I have OpenStreet maps on it, after some time the FR knows where I am with GPS. OK, so you *are* using smartphone functions which are beyond the capabilities of the much simpler dumbphone hardware/software architecture and thus require the much more complex hw/sw architecture of a smartphone. I accept that the FR is not fully 'free' due to some low level binary blobs, If you flash the leo2moko GSM firmware I produced a year and a half ago, your FR won't have any opaque blobs at all - at least as far as GSM goes; I know nothing about GPS or WiFi or BT. Well, OK, leo2moko fw includes some binary libs in its build, but: (1) These blobs are translucent in a way in that we can see exactly what is in them, thanks to them being linkable objects with full symbolic information, and (2) We know there is another TI firmware source version which is full source and which can be used to replace these binary parts - and a port of that full-source version to the Freerunner's modem will happen some day as a side fallout from my project seeking to run the same on dumbphone hardware. I only see dying my FR: sometimes it does not receive SM, soemtimes it does not wakeup from suspend (both are SHR bugs, I think, but nobody fixes them); The software architecture of a smartphone is much, much more complex than that of a dumbphone. If you want the additional capabilities which a dumbphone can't have, you have to pay for the extra complexity - and if you also want this much-more-complex device to be reliable for everyday use as a phone, you have to pay even more... and someday something of the hardware will break for ever... and then, what I should do? To all those for whom the FR hardware is the best thing there is and the best there can ever be - how much money do you have, or how much would extending the life of your FRs be worth to you? It would certainly be possible to restart production of new FRs that are verbatim-identical to the Openmoko-made ones - but it would be very, very expensive. I was given an estimate of 16 kUSD to reverse-engineer a sacrificial GTA02 PCB all the way to a set of gerber files that can then be used to produce new PCBs that are identical in form, fit and function. Or a slightly lower price tag of 5.5 kUSD to get aligned, calibrated, high-resolution images of all copper layers, both outer and inner. I plan on paying for the cheaper option some time in mid to late 2016, unless we get lucky and someone manages to dig up a surviving copy of Om's original PCB layout files. (I was told the files exist on a defect HDD - ouch.) But the 5.5 kUSD option which I'm prepared to pay for will only be sufficient for my needs in the FreeCalypso project, and not for making new verbatim clones of the Freerunner. If someone wants the latter, we would need the 16 kUSD option - and I am *not* covering that one with my own personal funds. Then add the cost of procuring all of components used by Openmoko to produce a new GTA02. All chips and other components in the Calypso modem block are no problem, I already got all of them - but I dunno about all of the chips in the application processor subsystem. If someone wishes to build new GTA02s that are strictly identical to Openmoko-made ones, so they can run all of the software without any changes, the infamous Glamo would have to be a part of it too. Anyone feel like scavenging the surplus markets for those cursed Glamo chips in order to build new FRs? Then throw in the cost of hiring some LCD manufacturer to design and build a new LCD module that matches Om's in form, fit and function - I would expect a mid-6-digit USD amount at least. And the cost of new injection moulds for the plastics to make new cases identical to Om's, and so on. I love my FR, even if it looks like a brick (which it is not) and I love this FR project for having something else in my hands, something which all the stupid folks do not have while they say about their phone it does not import me when it is spying me and phoning home You are comparing the FR to the store-bought mainstream crap that the masses use, and that is not an interesting comparison at all. You are NOT comparing the FR to the hypothetical Free Dumb Phone, which is what I asked in my original post. ... stupid people will use smartphones, I will not Well, whether you like it or not, you ARE using a smartphone, in the strictest technical sense of that
OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
Hello, I saw on the net a video about the BQ Aquaris E4.5 Ubuntu phone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR4baLQmU0s (english 40min) Jono Bacon, former Ubuntu Community Manager, shares a video with a detailed review and demo of the new bq Aquaris E4.5, complete with commentary on the wider scopes and convergence strategy What I'm asking me, and want to ask here: How thy 'paint' the picture from the apps written in HTML5 or QML to the display? Is this as well at the end of the day a X11 server or something else? It moves so smoothly. Thanks matthias -- Matthias Apitz, g...@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-170-4527211 Wenn der Mensch von den Umständen gebildet wird, so muß man die Umstände menschlich bilden. Si el hombre es formado por las circunstancias entonces es necesario formar humanamente las circunstancias, Karl Marx in Die heilige Familie / La sagrada familia ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
On Mon, 2015-03-16 at 08:31 +0100, Matthias Apitz wrote: Hello, I saw on the net a video about the BQ Aquaris E4.5 Ubuntu phone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR4baLQmU0s (english 40min) Jono Bacon, former Ubuntu Community Manager, shares a video with a detailed review and demo of the new bq Aquaris E4.5, complete with commentary on the wider scopes and convergence strategy What I'm asking me, and want to ask here: How thy 'paint' the picture from the apps written in HTML5 or QML to the display? Is this as well at the end of the day a X11 server or something else? It moves so smoothly. Thanks matthias Hi Matthias, As far as i can tell, they use mir [1] I did order the ubuntu phone and can't wait to test it out! Kid regards, Ed [1] http://unity.ubuntu.com/mir/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
El día Monday, March 16, 2015 a las 09:34:37AM +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escribió: Thanks for the info. I did order the ubuntu phone and can't wait to test it out! Me too on March 12 in the flash sell. The money is already cut from my credit card, so there is hope that I will get one :-) Interesting. Makes me curious why you both spend money on that one instead of e.g. the GTA04A5? Any answer is valid - and no need to be polite… I am just curious to understand how people think and decide such things in March 2015. Hi Nikolas, I'm using since 2008 the FR as my one and only cellphone. This is not lying, it is just a fact. And I do not know any other person from this list who is doing so. I will continue using the GTA02 until finaly breaks something, display or board, and will hope to update it. How and when such an update is possible? On the other hand, the Ubuntu phone is something to just play/test with it and the price allowed me this decision. Maybe I will give it to my wife who is using an old Nokia phone and we both are unwilling to use some Android spying and 'phoning home' device. matthias -- Matthias Apitz, g...@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-170-4527211 Wenn der Mensch von den Umständen gebildet wird, so muß man die Umstände menschlich bilden. Si el hombre es formado por las circunstancias entonces es necesario formar humanamente las circunstancias, Karl Marx in Die heilige Familie / La sagrada familiA ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Free phone: smart or not?
g...@unixarea.de wrote: I'm using since 2008 the FR as my one and only cellphone. This is not lying, it is just a fact. And I do not know any other person from this list who is doing so. Nick openmoko-commun...@njw.me.uk followed: I am too. The only thing that makes me tempted to switch phones is=20 redphone or chatsecure, basically. The GTA02 sucks, in some ways,=20 but I have no plans to buy a less free phone than it, so I'll stay=20 where I am for now. I am very glad to see a couple of people using their Freerunners and not switching to anything less free. But I just can't help but wonder: are you using your FR because it's free or because it's a smartphone? In other words, if there were a phone just as free as the FR, i.e., full source code for everything (including the GSM radio interface) without any binary blobs, full hardware schematics, free bootloader w/o any locks etc, but a dumbphone instead of a smartphone - a small, non-touch-sensitive LCD, a traditional numeric button pad for dialing and T9 texting, a processor with just enough horsepower to make/receive calls and send/receive SMS and not one iota more, and an OS-less firmware architecture optimized specifically for those functions - would you wish to use such a phone? What I find almost tragic about the history of this community is that someone effectively jumped the gun on evolution: produced a free smartphone (Openmoko) without producing a free dumbphone first. Some of us are life-long dumbphone users, but are very unhappy about the fact that all existing dumbphones are 100% closed and proprietary, with no ability for an end user to fix functional bugs herself or to make her own changes to the user interface code in the firmware. I currently use my Freerunner as a development platform and nothing more: I use its modem block as a BUV (bring-up vehicle) to run my experimental FreeCalypso firmware before porting the latter to dumbphone hardware targets. But I don't use it as my personal phone with an end user hat on. I don't do the latter because I have too much intrinsic personal revulsion against the idea of using an entire second processor running a full-blown GNU/Linux OS just to make a phone call - when I know full well that this functionality has been very successfully implemented on a tiny ARM7TDMI processor @ 52 MHz with a total of 4 MiB of flash, 256 KiB of fast SRAM and 512 KiB of slow SRAM (specific numbers from Mot C139) running a real-time firmware environment without any full-blown OS. So I wonder how other Freerunner users feel about this issue: do you actually *like* the fact that it is a smartphone, or would you rather use a dumbphone, but are using the FR and tolerating its smart aspects because no free dumbphone currently exists? VLR, SF ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
El día Monday, March 16, 2015 a las 08:46:09AM +0100, Ed Kapitein escribió: What I'm asking me, and want to ask here: How thy 'paint' the picture from the apps written in HTML5 or QML to the display? Is this as well at the end of the day a X11 server or something else? It moves so smoothly. Thanks matthias Hi Matthias, As far as i can tell, they use mir [1] [1] http://unity.ubuntu.com/mir/ Hi Ed, Thanks for the info. I did order the ubuntu phone and can't wait to test it out! Me too on March 12 in the flash sell. The money is already cut from my credit card, so there is hope that I will get one :-) matthias -- Matthias Apitz, g...@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-170-4527211 Wenn der Mensch von den Umständen gebildet wird, so muß man die Umstände menschlich bilden. Si el hombre es formado por las circunstancias entonces es necesario formar humanamente las circunstancias, Karl Marx in Die heilige Familie / La sagrada familia ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
Hi, Am 16.03.2015 um 09:00 schrieb Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de: El día Monday, March 16, 2015 a las 08:46:09AM +0100, Ed Kapitein escribió: What I'm asking me, and want to ask here: How thy 'paint' the picture from the apps written in HTML5 or QML to the display? Is this as well at the end of the day a X11 server or something else? It moves so smoothly. Thanks matthias Hi Matthias, As far as i can tell, they use mir [1] [1] http://unity.ubuntu.com/mir/ Hi Ed, Thanks for the info. I did order the ubuntu phone and can't wait to test it out! Me too on March 12 in the flash sell. The money is already cut from my credit card, so there is hope that I will get one :-) Interesting. Makes me curious why you both spend money on that one instead of e.g. the GTA04A5? Any answer is valid - and no need to be polite… I am just curious to understand how people think and decide such things in March 2015. BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Ubuntu phone HTML5 / QML
SNIP Interesting. Makes me curious why you both spend money on that one instead of e.g. the GTA04A5? Any answer is valid - and no need to be polite… I am just curious to understand how people think and decide such things in March 2015. BR, Nikolaus Hi Nikolaus, A couple of things made me decide to buy the ubuntu phone. -1 The price. for me it is afordable at 170 euro vs +/- 600 euro for a neo900 and slightly less for the GTA04A5 -2 The device is in mass production, compared to the volumes of GTA04 or neo900 -3 Development is done by a huge team, with a long track record in development. -4 Using old components from the GTA02 to build a GTA04 will get me a new phone with and 8 year old screen, 8 year old battery, 8 year old case etc. But i really appreciate what all members from the gta02 community have done in the past and are still doing today! Big thanks from me. Ed ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
