Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Petr Baudis]

On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 12:25:57PM +0100, Petr Baudis wrote:
> > Have the courage to
> > compete under human conditions! Enter human tournaments!
> 
> That's easy to say.  Do you know a tournament where a program can enter?
> I have tried few times with Pachi, never successfully yet. I think some
> other authors tried as well in the past.

P.S.: There will be a semi-official Czech Internet Go Championship
played in 2012, with some fairly strong players participating as well:
http://www.goweb.cz/cs/node/3306 - and Pachi (single computer version)
will play in it. The time constrols will be varying main time and
Japanese byoyomi 2x60s, which seems quite generous for the humans
to avoid blunders.

-- 
Petr "Pasky" Baudis
The goal of Computer Science is to build something that will
last at least until we've finished building it.
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Darren Cook]

> Thanks,   I found it on the Android Market and purchased my copy.
> 
> Someone complained that it does not play as well on the Android as it does
> on a 24 core computer.   Is that true?   What a disappointment! I
> laughed out loud when I saw that.

But, more seriously, does anyone know how many ranks weaker is it on an
android phone? E.g. a single core 1Ghz.

Darren
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Vlad Dumitrescu]

Hi Aja,

On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 23:44, Aja Huang  wrote:
> Do you mean the case in the attached example "semeai_scoring.sgf"? In a seki
> of a dead group with a square of four, the other side must have a big eye as
> well. The bottom-right corner is such an example, where it's all White's
> territory. In the bottom-left corner. It can't be a seki.

I can't check the sgf at the moment, but in my case it was a proper
"almost seki, but I had more external liberties" case. If it helps, CS
was playing at level 3 or 4 on 13x13. If CS would have started filling
in those, I would have had to capture, but it passed.

Regarding the UI, what is needed is a way to say "hey, that position
was not done, let's keep playing!".

regards,
Vlad

> Best regards,
> Aja
>
>
> -原始郵件- From: Vlad Dumitrescu
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 10:11 AM
> To: computer-go@dvandva.org
> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
>
>
> Hi Rémi,
>
> On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 16:28, Rémi Coulom  wrote:
>>
>> Sorry for your medal. I don't do the UI stuff, but I'll forward your
>> remark to Unbalance. Or if you can send the position with the wrong scoring
>> to me, I'll try to make CS score it correctly.
>
>
> It's not a problem for me, but thought it would be a simple improvement.
>
> I don't have the position, but it was a semeai where CS's dead group
> had a square of four in the corner but not enough liberties overall to
> make a seki. And since the counting seems to be Japanese (since
> prisoners are deducted), I would have lost points by capturing the
> group effectively.
>
> regards,
> Vlad
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Aja Huang]

Hi Vlad,

Do you mean the case in the attached example "semeai_scoring.sgf"? In a seki 
of a dead group with a square of four, the other side must have a big eye as 
well. The bottom-right corner is such an example, where it's all White's 
territory. In the bottom-left corner. It can't be a seki.


Best regards,
Aja


-原始郵件- 
From: Vlad Dumitrescu

Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 10:11 AM
To: computer-go@dvandva.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

Hi Rémi,

On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 16:28, Rémi Coulom  wrote:
Sorry for your medal. I don't do the UI stuff, but I'll forward your 
remark to Unbalance. Or if you can send the position with the wrong 
scoring to me, I'll try to make CS score it correctly.


It's not a problem for me, but thought it would be a simple improvement.

I don't have the position, but it was a semeai where CS's dead group
had a square of four in the corner but not enough liberties overall to
make a seki. And since the counting seems to be Japanese (since
prisoners are deducted), I would have lost points by capturing the
group effectively.

regards,
Vlad
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semeai_scoring.sgf
Description: application/go-sgf
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Vlad Dumitrescu]

Hi Rémi,

On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 16:28, Rémi Coulom  wrote:
> Sorry for your medal. I don't do the UI stuff, but I'll forward your remark 
> to Unbalance. Or if you can send the position with the wrong scoring to me, 
> I'll try to make CS score it correctly.

It's not a problem for me, but thought it would be a simple improvement.

I don't have the position, but it was a semeai where CS's dead group
had a square of four in the corner but not enough liberties overall to
make a seki. And since the counting seems to be Japanese (since
prisoners are deducted), I would have lost points by capturing the
group effectively.

regards,
Vlad
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Rémi Coulom]

Hi Vlad,

Sorry for your medal. I don't do the UI stuff, but I'll forward your remark to 
Unbalance. Or if you can send the position with the wrong scoring to me, I'll 
try to make CS score it correctly.

Rémi

On 11 janv. 2012, at 15:24, Vlad Dumitrescu wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 15:07, Don Dailey  wrote:
>> Thanks,   I found it on the Android Market and purchased my copy.
> 
> I just did that too (especially since it's on sale at only €2,99), and
> one thing that I'm not happy about is that when a game is finished,
> there is no way to contest the scoring done by the program. It's
> annoying when one doesn't get the medal one deserves because a dead
> group was marked as alive :-)
> 
> regards,
> Vlad
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Vlad Dumitrescu]

Hi,

On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 15:07, Don Dailey  wrote:
> Thanks,   I found it on the Android Market and purchased my copy.

I just did that too (especially since it's on sale at only €2,99), and
one thing that I'm not happy about is that when a game is finished,
there is no way to contest the scoring done by the program. It's
annoying when one doesn't get the medal one deserves because a dead
group was marked as alive :-)

regards,
Vlad
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Don Dailey]

On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 4:39 AM, Rémi Coulom  wrote:

> Thanks Jouni for buying Crazy Stone. And yes, Don, there is an Android
> version.
>

Thanks,   I found it on the Android Market and purchased my copy.

Someone complained that it does not play as well on the Android as it does
on a 24 core computer.   Is that true?   What a disappointment! I
laughed out loud when I saw that.

Anyway,  I am happy with it.

Don




>
> All the many versions of Crazy Stone are listed on its web page:
> http://remi.coulom.free.fr/CrazyStone/
>
> Chinese versions coming soon.
>
> Rémi
>
> On 10 janv. 2012, at 23:48, Don Dailey wrote:
>
> > Is there an Android version for my tablet?
> >
> > Don
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Nick Wedd]

Dear Yamato,

On 11/01/2012 07:28, Yamato wrote:

(2012/01/11 5:19), Jean-loup Gailly wrote:

> I know the Zen author occasionally logs in as the bot and censors
people who abuse the bot.

I do this too for pachi2. But it's a real pain to maintain the censor
list. My list currently has
147 accounts (probably representing much fewer distinct persons).


I did that for only one account, who was an obvious sandbagger.


Your censoring of an obvious sandbagger was good.  In future, when you 
have clear evidence of sandbagging, I hope you will report it to me or 
to another KGS admin.  We believe that sandbaggers weaken the KGS rating 
system, and when we are aware of them we remove their ratings, so that 
all their games are ignored for rating purposes.


A KGS player who was resigning against Aya in won positions, and beating 
Zen and CrazyStone, recently had his rating removed.


Nick
--
Nick Wedd
n...@maproom.co.uk
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Rémi Coulom]

Thanks Jouni for buying Crazy Stone. And yes, Don, there is an Android version.

All the many versions of Crazy Stone are listed on its web page:
http://remi.coulom.free.fr/CrazyStone/

Chinese versions coming soon.

Rémi

On 10 janv. 2012, at 23:48, Don Dailey wrote:

> Is there an Android version for my tablet?  
> 
> Don
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Yamato]

(2012/01/11 5:19), Jean-loup Gailly wrote:

 >  I know the Zen author occasionally logs in as the bot and censors
people who abuse the bot.

I do this too for pachi2. But it's a real pain to maintain the censor
list. My list currently has
147 accounts (probably representing much fewer distinct persons).


I did that for only one account, who was an obvious sandbagger.

--
Yamato
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Michael Williams]

I just realized how natural a tablet would be for playing Go. Makes me want
to build a wooden goban/table with an iPad at the center.

On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Don Dailey  wrote:

> Is there an Android version for my tablet?
>
> Don
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Jouni Valkonen 
> wrote:
>
>> Rémi, here is the receipt about the bought crazystone, for the bet. It
>> plays reasonable well for a tablet computer! Not very easy to beat (next
>> time I need to concentrate better and not eat while playing...).
>>
>> Good luck for 6d!
>>
>> —Jouni
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: "iTunes Store" 
>> Date: Jan 10, 2012 4:37 AM
>> Subject: Your receipt No.149027514692
>> To: 
>>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  *Billed To:*
>>   jounivalko...@gmail.com
>> Jouni Valkonen
>> Ankkurikylankatu 2 C 19
>> 20240 Turku
>> FIN *Order Number:* MHD5B22KKY
>> *Receipt Date:* 09/01/12
>> *Order Total:* 5,99 €
>> *Billed To:* Visa  0661
>>
>>
>>
>> *Item* *Developer* *Type* *Unit Price*  Champion Go HD ～Crazy
>> Stone～, v1.1.0 (4+)
>>  Write a 
>> Review
>>  Report
>> a 
>> Problem
>>   UNBALANCE Corporation  App  5,99
>> €  Order Total: 5,99 €
>>
>>  *Please retain for your records*
>> Please See Below For Terms And Conditions Pertaining To This Order.
>>
>> *iTunes Store*
>> You can find the iTunes Store Terms of Sale and Sales Policies by
>> launching your iTunes application and clicking on Terms of Sale or Sales
>> Policies 
>>
>> Answers to frequently asked questions regarding the iTunes Store can be
>> found at http://www.apple.com/uk/support/itunes/store/
>>
>>
>>   Apple ID 
>> Summary 
>> •
>> Purchase 
>> History
>>
>>   Apple respects your privacy
>> Information regarding your personal information can be viewed at
>> http://www.apple.com/fi/privacy/
>>
>>   This is not a VAT notice. Copyright © 2011 iTunes S.à r.l. All rights
>> reserved 
>>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Don Dailey]

Is there an Android version for my tablet?

Don


On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Jouni Valkonen wrote:

> Rémi, here is the receipt about the bought crazystone, for the bet. It
> plays reasonable well for a tablet computer! Not very easy to beat (next
> time I need to concentrate better and not eat while playing...).
>
> Good luck for 6d!
>
> —Jouni
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: "iTunes Store" 
> Date: Jan 10, 2012 4:37 AM
> Subject: Your receipt No.149027514692
> To: 
>
> **
>
>
>
>
>  *Billed To:*
>   jounivalko...@gmail.com
> Jouni Valkonen
> Ankkurikylankatu 2 C 19
> 20240 Turku
> FIN *Order Number:* MHD5B22KKY
> *Receipt Date:* 09/01/12
> *Order Total:* 5,99 €
> *Billed To:* Visa  0661
>
>
>
> *Item* *Developer* *Type* *Unit Price*  Champion Go HD ～Crazy
> Stone～, v1.1.0 (4+)
>  Write a 
> Review
>  Report
> a 
> Problem
>   UNBALANCE Corporation  App  5,99
> €  Order Total: 5,99 €
>
>  *Please retain for your records*
> Please See Below For Terms And Conditions Pertaining To This Order.
>
> *iTunes Store*
> You can find the iTunes Store Terms of Sale and Sales Policies by
> launching your iTunes application and clicking on Terms of Sale or Sales
> Policies 
>
> Answers to frequently asked questions regarding the iTunes Store can be
> found at http://www.apple.com/uk/support/itunes/store/
>
>
>   Apple ID 
> Summary •
> Purchase 
> History
>
>   Apple respects your privacy
> Information regarding your personal information can be viewed at
> http://www.apple.com/fi/privacy/
>
>   This is not a VAT notice. Copyright © 2011 iTunes S.à r.l. All rights
> reserved 
>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Jouni Valkonen]

Rémi, here is the receipt about the bought crazystone, for the bet. It
plays reasonable well for a tablet computer! Not very easy to beat (next
time I need to concentrate better and not eat while playing...).

Good luck for 6d!

—Jouni
-- Forwarded message --
From: "iTunes Store" 
Date: Jan 10, 2012 4:37 AM
Subject: Your receipt No.149027514692
To: 

**




 *Billed To:*
  jounivalko...@gmail.com
Jouni Valkonen
Ankkurikylankatu 2 C 19
20240 Turku
FIN *Order Number:* MHD5B22KKY
*Receipt Date:* 09/01/12
*Order Total:* 5,99 €
*Billed To:* Visa  0661



*Item* *Developer* *Type* *Unit Price*  Champion Go HD ～Crazy
Stone～, v1.1.0 (4+)
 Write a 
Review
Report
a 
Problem
 UNBALANCE Corporation  App  5,99
€  Order Total: 5,99 €

 *Please retain for your records*
Please See Below For Terms And Conditions Pertaining To This Order.

*iTunes Store*
You can find the iTunes Store Terms of Sale and Sales Policies by launching
your iTunes application and clicking on Terms of Sale or Sales
Policies

Answers to frequently asked questions regarding the iTunes Store can be
found at http://www.apple.com/uk/support/itunes/store/


  Apple ID 
Summary
•
Purchase 
History

  Apple respects your privacy
Information regarding your personal information can be viewed at
http://www.apple.com/fi/privacy/

  This is not a VAT notice. Copyright © 2011 iTunes S.à r.l. All rights
reserved 
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Aja Huang]

When a program becomes famous/interesting on KGS, some users would try to 
"play with" it. I have seen that one guy registered a new account and used 
that account to beat Zen from 6 stones until 2 stones. Now sure if it hurts 
Zen's rating much. Just now I saw an account StoneCrazy [4d] on KGS


From the view of a Go programmer, I would expect that KGS can support 
"reject a match" for a ranked robot.


Aja

-原始郵件- 
From: Rémi Coulom

Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 2:43 PM
To: computer-go@dvandva.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

I wonder what kind of abuse  you censor. I never observed any behaviour I'd 
like to censor with Crazy Stone.


Rémi

On 10 janv. 2012, at 21:19, Jean-loup Gailly wrote:

>  I know the Zen author occasionally logs in as the bot and censors 
> people who abuse the bot.


I do this too for pachi2. But it's a real pain to maintain the censor 
list. My list currently has

147 accounts (probably representing much fewer distinct persons).

Jean-loup

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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Rémi Coulom]

I wonder what kind of abuse  you censor. I never observed any behaviour I'd 
like to censor with Crazy Stone.

Rémi

On 10 janv. 2012, at 21:19, Jean-loup Gailly wrote:

> >  I know the Zen author occasionally logs in as the bot and censors people 
> > who abuse the bot. 
> 
> I do this too for pachi2. But it's a real pain to maintain the censor list. 
> My list currently has
> 147 accounts (probably representing much fewer distinct persons).
> 
> Jean-loup
> 
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Ingo Althöfer]

It might help when programmers exchange their 
experiences and their private censor lists
- not in a forum but in private mails.

Ingo (not a programmer, nothing to exchange)

 Original-Nachricht 
> Datum: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 21:19:52 +0100
> Von: Jean-loup Gailly 
> An: computer-go@dvandva.org
> Betreff: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

> >  I know the Zen author occasionally logs in as the bot and censors
> people
> who abuse the bot.
> 
> I do this too for pachi2. But it's a real pain to maintain the censor
> list.
> My list currently has
> 147 accounts (probably representing much fewer distinct persons).
> 
> Jean-loup

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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Brian Sheppard]

This situation is crying out for collaborative filtering.

 

But even individual filtering would help. Does KGS allow bots to prefer to
accept game offers from some players rather than others?

 

If you gave lowest precedence to players whose results against your bot have
been above their rank level, then anti-bot discrimination would be much
harder to sustain.

 

 

From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org
[mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Jean-loup Gailly
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 3:20 PM
To: computer-go@dvandva.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

 

>  I know the Zen author occasionally logs in as the bot and censors people
who abuse the bot. 

 

I do this too for pachi2. But it's a real pain to maintain the censor list.
My list currently has

147 accounts (probably representing much fewer distinct persons).

 

Jean-loup

 

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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Jean-loup Gailly]

>  I know the Zen author occasionally logs in as the bot and censors people
who abuse the bot.

I do this too for pachi2. But it's a real pain to maintain the censor list.
My list currently has
147 accounts (probably representing much fewer distinct persons).

Jean-loup
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Stefan Kaitschick]

I think your beeing too logical.
There is no logic to vanity.
(not his bot btw)

Stefan

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Don Dailey  wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Stefan Kaitschick <
> stefan.kaitsch...@hamburg.de> wrote:
>
>> That was not bothater.
>> A strong 6d razed many kgs 5ds(me included) with his account.
>> This is a case of importing rating points to the bot.
>>
>
> I didn't even think of that scenario.   So you think he is pumping up the
> bot?Is it just a game or perhaps it's his bot?
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>> I really don't see a cure for this.
>> Wrong handicaps could be corrected with a simple function added to the
>> protocol.(Or the bot could look up the kgs archive before agreeing)
>> But wrong people playing, or players throwing games on purpose, is
>> hopeless.
>> Banning accounts is cumbersome and ineffective, and social pressure can
>> hardly be brought to bear on those who think this is a good idea in the
>> first place.
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Rémi Coulom  wrote:
>>
>>> On 8 janv. 2012, at 20:45, Jouni Valkonen wrote:
>>> > oh, Zen is drifting more than I expect, when old games are dropping.
>>> It did not look like getting into 6d when she played actively in November.
>>> I guess that I already lost the bet. Is it ok, that I pay the bet as buying
>>> CS for iPad2? It is only €5.99, so after reducing Apple's share and taxes,
>>> it may be a little less than 5 euros for you.
>>> >
>>>
>>> You have not lost already, but yes, if you lose, it is OK :-)
>>>
>>> I believe the main reason for the recent drift is the un-rating of the
>>> sandbagger. Also, the mid-december drift was caused by BOTHater36 playing
>>> humans:
>>> http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=bothater36
>>>
>>> The most efficient way to improve one's rank on KGS is to stop playing.
>>>
>>> Rémi
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>>
>>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Jeff Nowakowski]

You can probably just disconnect and reconnect. Another option: I know 
the Zen author occasionally logs in as the bot and censors people who 
abuse the bot. The only problem with this method is that it's very easy 
to create a new account on KGS.


If you catch somebody rank cheating, the best thing to do is to report 
it to the admins and get all their hard work undone. I think most people 
are legit, and removing a few bad apples helps out and offers some 
discouragement.


On 01/09/2012 02:11 PM, Christian Nilsson wrote:

Concerning _abusive_ players..

After some googling I finally found a log file from kgsgtp ( I haven't
had a bot online for years, thus googling! ). What I've been looking
for is if the name of your opponent is shown in the logs or output of
kgsgtp. It appears this may be the case:

"FINER: Got challenge from"", testing engine response."

Of course this could have been from an old version, but if this is
still being written to a log or output. Maybe you can use it for
access control? Simply keep a list of players you wish to exclude and
either resign at move 1 ( shouldn't count right? ) or if it is
displayed before the game starts you could decline one of the settings
making it impossible for them to start a game?

Perhaps someone would be willing to have a look at their output/logs?


/Christian Nilsson


On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 7:38 PM, Don Dailey  wrote:



On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Jeff Nowakowski  wrote:


On 01/09/2012 11:54 AM, Jim O'Flaherty, Jr. wrote:



Of course I am making this up. The point is that the assumption that
a single account is associated with exactly one human who is the same
human to play on that account. Additionally, there are those out
there in the human world who don't value rank variation near as much
as those creating bots might like or want. {smirk}



First of all, you're not allowed to share an account, and if the admins
find out they'll derank you just as if you had been intentionally
sandbagging.

Also, it's not just the bot creators that value the integrity of the rank
system. As a KGS player, I report anybody when I find obvious cheating. I
originally reported this player and I stand by it.

Bot bashing is rampant on KGS, and there are several people on KGS who
feel like they are defending the honor of humanity. My guess is that this
person took it too far.


I think it's time that bots stand up for themselves and unite.   I can hear
them now,  "We refuse to be treated like second class citizens!"

I know how you feel because I have had people disrespect my bot (and me by
extension) by their behavior.

Don






This person spent all their time playing bots, had an amazing record
against CrazyStone, and resigned several games in the middle where he had a
lead or good chances against the Aya bots.


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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Christian Nilsson]

Concerning _abusive_ players..

After some googling I finally found a log file from kgsgtp ( I haven't
had a bot online for years, thus googling! ). What I've been looking
for is if the name of your opponent is shown in the logs or output of
kgsgtp. It appears this may be the case:

"FINER: Got challenge from "", testing engine response."

Of course this could have been from an old version, but if this is
still being written to a log or output. Maybe you can use it for
access control? Simply keep a list of players you wish to exclude and
either resign at move 1 ( shouldn't count right? ) or if it is
displayed before the game starts you could decline one of the settings
making it impossible for them to start a game?

Perhaps someone would be willing to have a look at their output/logs?


/Christian Nilsson


On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 7:38 PM, Don Dailey  wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Jeff Nowakowski  wrote:
>>
>> On 01/09/2012 11:54 AM, Jim O'Flaherty, Jr. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Of course I am making this up. The point is that the assumption that
>>> a single account is associated with exactly one human who is the same
>>> human to play on that account. Additionally, there are those out
>>> there in the human world who don't value rank variation near as much
>>> as those creating bots might like or want. {smirk}
>>
>>
>> First of all, you're not allowed to share an account, and if the admins
>> find out they'll derank you just as if you had been intentionally
>> sandbagging.
>>
>> Also, it's not just the bot creators that value the integrity of the rank
>> system. As a KGS player, I report anybody when I find obvious cheating. I
>> originally reported this player and I stand by it.
>>
>> Bot bashing is rampant on KGS, and there are several people on KGS who
>> feel like they are defending the honor of humanity. My guess is that this
>> person took it too far.
>>
> I think it's time that bots stand up for themselves and unite.   I can hear
> them now,  "We refuse to be treated like second class citizens!"
>
> I know how you feel because I have had people disrespect my bot (and me by
> extension) by their behavior.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>>
>> This person spent all their time playing bots, had an amazing record
>> against CrazyStone, and resigned several games in the middle where he had a
>> lead or good chances against the Aya bots.
>>
>>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Don Dailey]

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Jeff Nowakowski  wrote:

> On 01/09/2012 11:54 AM, Jim O'Flaherty, Jr. wrote:
>
>>
>> Of course I am making this up. The point is that the assumption that
>> a single account is associated with exactly one human who is the same
>> human to play on that account. Additionally, there are those out
>> there in the human world who don't value rank variation near as much
>> as those creating bots might like or want. {smirk}
>>
>
> First of all, you're not allowed to share an account, and if the admins
> find out they'll derank you just as if you had been intentionally
> sandbagging.
>
> Also, it's not just the bot creators that value the integrity of the rank
> system. As a KGS player, I report anybody when I find obvious cheating. I
> originally reported this player and I stand by it.
>
> Bot bashing is rampant on KGS, and there are several people on KGS who
> feel like they are defending the honor of humanity. My guess is that this
> person took it too far.
>
> I think it's time that bots stand up for themselves and unite.   I can
hear them now,  "We refuse to be treated like second class citizens!"

I know how you feel because I have had people disrespect my bot (and me by
extension) by their behavior.

Don





> This person spent all their time playing bots, had an amazing record
> against CrazyStone, and resigned several games in the middle where he had a
> lead or good chances against the Aya bots.
>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Jeff Nowakowski]

On 01/09/2012 11:54 AM, Jim O'Flaherty, Jr. wrote:


Of course I am making this up. The point is that the assumption that
a single account is associated with exactly one human who is the same
human to play on that account. Additionally, there are those out
there in the human world who don't value rank variation near as much
as those creating bots might like or want. {smirk}


First of all, you're not allowed to share an account, and if the admins 
find out they'll derank you just as if you had been intentionally 
sandbagging.


Also, it's not just the bot creators that value the integrity of the 
rank system. As a KGS player, I report anybody when I find obvious 
cheating. I originally reported this player and I stand by it.


Bot bashing is rampant on KGS, and there are several people on KGS who 
feel like they are defending the honor of humanity. My guess is that 
this person took it too far.


This person spent all their time playing bots, had an amazing record 
against CrazyStone, and resigned several games in the middle where he 
had a lead or good chances against the Aya bots.


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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Don Dailey]

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Stefan Kaitschick <
stefan.kaitsch...@hamburg.de> wrote:

> That was not bothater.
> A strong 6d razed many kgs 5ds(me included) with his account.
> This is a case of importing rating points to the bot.
>

I didn't even think of that scenario.   So you think he is pumping up the
bot?Is it just a game or perhaps it's his bot?

Don





> I really don't see a cure for this.
> Wrong handicaps could be corrected with a simple function added to the
> protocol.(Or the bot could look up the kgs archive before agreeing)
> But wrong people playing, or players throwing games on purpose, is
> hopeless.
> Banning accounts is cumbersome and ineffective, and social pressure can
> hardly be brought to bear on those who think this is a good idea in the
> first place.
>
> Stefan
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Rémi Coulom  wrote:
>
>> On 8 janv. 2012, at 20:45, Jouni Valkonen wrote:
>> > oh, Zen is drifting more than I expect, when old games are dropping. It
>> did not look like getting into 6d when she played actively in November. I
>> guess that I already lost the bet. Is it ok, that I pay the bet as buying
>> CS for iPad2? It is only €5.99, so after reducing Apple's share and taxes,
>> it may be a little less than 5 euros for you.
>> >
>>
>> You have not lost already, but yes, if you lose, it is OK :-)
>>
>> I believe the main reason for the recent drift is the un-rating of the
>> sandbagger. Also, the mid-december drift was caused by BOTHater36 playing
>> humans:
>> http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=bothater36
>>
>> The most efficient way to improve one's rank on KGS is to stop playing.
>>
>> Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Stefan Kaitschick]

That was not bothater.
A strong 6d razed many kgs 5ds(me included) with his account.
This is a case of importing rating points to the bot.
I really don't see a cure for this.
Wrong handicaps could be corrected with a simple function added to the
protocol.(Or the bot could look up the kgs archive before agreeing)
But wrong people playing, or players throwing games on purpose, is hopeless.
Banning accounts is cumbersome and ineffective, and social pressure can
hardly be brought to bear on those who think this is a good idea in the
first place.

Stefan


On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Rémi Coulom  wrote:

> On 8 janv. 2012, at 20:45, Jouni Valkonen wrote:
> > oh, Zen is drifting more than I expect, when old games are dropping. It
> did not look like getting into 6d when she played actively in November. I
> guess that I already lost the bet. Is it ok, that I pay the bet as buying
> CS for iPad2? It is only €5.99, so after reducing Apple's share and taxes,
> it may be a little less than 5 euros for you.
> >
>
> You have not lost already, but yes, if you lose, it is OK :-)
>
> I believe the main reason for the recent drift is the un-rating of the
> sandbagger. Also, the mid-december drift was caused by BOTHater36 playing
> humans:
> http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=bothater36
>
> The most efficient way to improve one's rank on KGS is to stop playing.
>
> Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Don Dailey]

That's an interesting thought.Perhaps by looking at the comments that
could be established, or you could even ask in a non-threatening way.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Jim O'Flaherty, Jr. <
jim_oflaherty...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Remi,
>
> There might be a very simple explanation for the "sandbagger" - what if it
> is actually an account that is shared? In other words, it could easily be a
> man around 45 years old playing occasionally on his device. And then
> allowing his dad to use it thereby removing all of the noise of trying to
> manage his father's account.
>

That's an interesting thought.Perhaps by looking at the comments that
could be established.   Or you could ask in a non-threatening way.
"Hey, are the you the same guy that played such a nice game against Crazy
Stone the other day?" You will get an honest response if he doesn't
think you are trying to pin him down.




> Of course I am making this up. The point is that the assumption that a
> single account is associated with exactly one human who is the same human
> to play on that account. Additionally, there are those out there in the
> human world who don't value rank variation near as much as those creating
> bots might like or want. {smirk}
>
>
> Jim
>
>
>   --
> *From:* Rémi Coulom 
> *To:* computer-go@dvandva.org
> *Sent:* Sunday, January 8, 2012 4:04 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
>
> On 8 janv. 2012, at 20:45, Jouni Valkonen wrote:
> > oh, Zen is drifting more than I expect, when old games are dropping. It
> did not look like getting into 6d when she played actively in November. I
> guess that I already lost the bet. Is it ok, that I pay the bet as buying
> CS for iPad2? It is only €5.99, so after reducing Apple's share and taxes,
> it may be a little less than 5 euros for you.
> >
>
> You have not lost already, but yes, if you lose, it is OK :-)
>
> I believe the main reason for the recent drift is the un-rating of the
> sandbagger. Also, the mid-december drift was caused by BOTHater36 playing
> humans:
> http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=bothater36
>
> The most efficient way to improve one's rank on KGS is to stop playing.
>
> Rémi
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>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Jim O'Flaherty, Jr.]

Remi,

There might be a very simple explanation for the "sandbagger" - what if it is 
actually an account that is shared? In other words, it could easily be a man 
around 45 years old playing occasionally on his device. And then allowing his 
dad to use it thereby removing all of the noise of trying to manage his 
father's account.

Of course I am making this up. The point is that the assumption that a single 
account is associated with exactly one human who is the same human to play on 
that account. Additionally, there are those out there in the human world who 
don't value rank variation near as much as those creating bots might like or 
want. {smirk}


Jim




 From: Rémi Coulom 
To: computer-go@dvandva.org 
Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2012 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
 
On 8 janv. 2012, at 20:45, Jouni Valkonen wrote:
> oh, Zen is drifting more than I expect, when old games are dropping. It did 
> not look like getting into 6d when she played actively in November. I guess 
> that I already lost the bet. Is it ok, that I pay the bet as buying CS for 
> iPad2? It is only €5.99, so after reducing Apple's share and taxes, it may be 
> a little less than 5 euros for you. 
> 

You have not lost already, but yes, if you lose, it is OK :-)

I believe the main reason for the recent drift is the un-rating of the 
sandbagger. Also, the mid-december drift was caused by BOTHater36 playing 
humans:
http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=bothater36

The most efficient way to improve one's rank on KGS is to stop playing.

Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hi Jouni,

> oh, Zen is drifting more than I expect, when old games are dropping. It did
> not look like getting into 6d when she played actively in November. I guess
> that I already lost the bet. 

indeed you lost the 5-Euro bet today: Zen's rating curve has climbed,
due to clever inactivity, above the 6-dan threshold. See at
http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=zen19d

Of course, Zen's team did not do this with the intentiion to become 6-dan.
But perhaps they now can use the opportunity to find out how the new
rank makes play on KGS differently for Zen.

Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Rémi Coulom]

On 8 janv. 2012, at 20:45, Jouni Valkonen wrote:
> oh, Zen is drifting more than I expect, when old games are dropping. It did 
> not look like getting into 6d when she played actively in November. I guess 
> that I already lost the bet. Is it ok, that I pay the bet as buying CS for 
> iPad2? It is only €5.99, so after reducing Apple's share and taxes, it may be 
> a little less than 5 euros for you. 
> 

You have not lost already, but yes, if you lose, it is OK :-)

I believe the main reason for the recent drift is the un-rating of the 
sandbagger. Also, the mid-december drift was caused by BOTHater36 playing 
humans:
http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=bothater36

The most efficient way to improve one's rank on KGS is to stop playing.

Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Jouni Valkonen]

On 8 January 2012 14:27, Rémi Coulom  wrote:

>
> On 7 janv. 2012, at 21:07, Jouni Valkonen wrote:
> >
> > 6d for MC-gobot seems a bit optimistic, I would bet €5 that it won't
> happen in 2012. 6d's are ridiculously strong. I calculated that in January,
> out of 56 games against 5d's CS won 48%. This is indeed impressive,
> although there is long way to beat 6d's in even game.
>
> I take the bet. Zen19D is 5.99 dan today. No way it won't improve to 6d. I
> would take the bet for Crazy Stone too.
>
>
oh, Zen is drifting more than I expect, when old games are dropping. It did
not look like getting into 6d when she played actively in November. I guess
that I already lost the bet. Is it ok, that I pay the bet as buying CS for
iPad2? It is only €5.99, so after reducing Apple's share and taxes, it may
be a little less than 5 euros for you.

   –Jouni
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hmm, Remi and Thomas,

good fodder to meditate about.

Remi wrote:
> Thomas Wolf wrote:
> > Reaching 6 Dan may well happen, I only want to say that the difference
> > between 5.99 dan and a stable 6.00 dan can be big because then all 
> > players get one more stone, all games are somewhat different.
> 
> This all depends on the rating system. Depending on how well the rating
> system is calibrated, reaching 6d might make things easier or harder. 

So far, your opinion are compatible.


Remi went on:
> I expect that for computers, reaching 6d will make things easier, because the
> level of play of computers is very uneven. Some of the fast progress of Crazy
> Stone when it passed the 5d bar might come from that phenomenon.
 
That sounds very interesting but also very complicated.
Can you try to explain it in more detail?

Has there been this phenomenon with other bots at other barriers?
Did the Zen team experience it at some k-dan/(k+1)-dan barrier(s)?

What a wonderfully complicated world,
Ingo.


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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Rémi Coulom]

On 8 janv. 2012, at 16:25, Thomas Wolf wrote:
> 
> Reaching 6 Dan may well happen, I only want to say that the difference between
> 5.99 dan and a stable 6.00 dan can be big because then all players get one 
> more
> stone, all games are somewhat different.

This all depends on the rating system. Depending on how well the rating system 
is calibrated, reaching 6d might make things easier or harder. I expect that 
for computers, reaching 6d will make things easier, because the level of play 
of computers is very uneven. Some of the fast progress of Crazy Stone when it 
passed the 5d bar might come from that phenomenon.

Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Thomas Wolf]

On Sun, 8 Jan 2012, Rémi Coulom wrote:



On 7 janv. 2012, at 21:07, Jouni Valkonen wrote:


6d for MC-gobot seems a bit optimistic, I would bet €5 that it won't happen in 
2012. 6d's are ridiculously strong. I calculated that in January, out of 56 
games against 5d's CS won 48%. This is indeed impressive, although there is 
long way to beat 6d's in even game.


I take the bet. Zen19D is 5.99 dan today. No way it won't improve to 6d. I 
would take the bet for Crazy Stone too.



Reaching 6 Dan may well happen, I only want to say that the difference between
5.99 dan and a stable 6.00 dan can be big because then all players get one more
stone, all games are somewhat different.

Thomas



Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Rémi Coulom]

On 7 janv. 2012, at 21:07, Jouni Valkonen wrote:
> 
> 6d for MC-gobot seems a bit optimistic, I would bet €5 that it won't happen 
> in 2012. 6d's are ridiculously strong. I calculated that in January, out of 
> 56 games against 5d's CS won 48%. This is indeed impressive, although there 
> is long way to beat 6d's in even game.

I take the bet. Zen19D is 5.99 dan today. No way it won't improve to 6d. I 
would take the bet for Crazy Stone too.

Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[steve uurtamo]

Imagine how strong they'd be at 0.1 sec/move.

Seems like it's really only fair to measure at non-blitz.

s.
On Jan 7, 2012 3:32 PM, "Aja Huang"  wrote:

>   Jouni, 6d’s are NOT ridiculously strong. I am a solid 6d KGS player but
> lost many games to Zen and Crazy Stones. Actually they might be able to
> reach 6d already with 10 secs/move or in even faster games.
>
> Aja
>
>
>  *From:* Jouni Valkonen 
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 07, 2012 1:07 PM
> *To:* computer-go@dvandva.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
>
>
> Jeff, it does not matter what ten humans does with the games, because they
> are insignificant compared to bulk mass of games that gobots are playing.
> therefore CS's it has no relevance for the rating system. Also 6 months is
> very very short time, and when old games are starting to expire, KGS rating
> will follow. See e.g. CS rating graph for reference.
>
> KGS rating system works brilliantly and it is almost impossible to
> exploit, because only way to exploit it is to make 8d? account and then go
> kibitzing other people's games, but if there are only few games played, it
> has very little influence for system as a whole. Therefore it is certainly
> better rating system than in any other Chess and Go servers. (it is even
> better than Glicko)
>
> People observe KGS-rating system often problematic, because it punishes
> most severely those who are weak players.
>
> one improvement to rating system could be, that it would calculate
> separate ratings for both, slow and blitz games.
>
> 6d for MC-gobot seems a bit optimistic, I would bet €5 that it won't
> happen in 2012. 6d's are ridiculously strong. I calculated that in January,
> out of 56 games against 5d's CS won 48%. This is indeed impressive,
> although there is long way to beat 6d's in even game.
>
>  –Jouni
>
> On 7 January 2012 21:03, Jeff Nowakowski  wrote:
>
>> On 01/02/2012 05:04 PM, Rémi Coulom wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current
>>> experimental version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone
>>> 2011. That's less than one stone difference on KGS. But I am sure
>>> both Zen and Crazy Stone will reach 6d in 2012.
>>>
>>
>> There are two problems with the KGS rankings:
>>
>> One, they are weighed down a lot by past games from weaker versions.
>>
>> Two, you have to worry about people trying to game the system. I found
>> strong evidence that one of the frequent CrazyStone players was losing
>> games intentionally against a weaker bot, while at the same time winning
>> frequently against CrazyStone.
>>
>> I brought this up with an admin, and he said they were looking into it,
>> but several days have gone by and the player was not deranked (which is the
>> usual punishment for gaming the system, and would remove past games from
>> the rank calculation).
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Aja Huang]

Jouni, 6d’s are NOT ridiculously strong. I am a solid 6d KGS player but 
lost many games to Zen and Crazy Stones. Actually they might be able to 
reach 6d already with 10 secs/move or in even faster games.

Aja


From: Jouni Valkonen
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 1:07 PM
To: computer-go@dvandva.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen


Jeff, it does not matter what ten humans does with the games, because they 
are insignificant compared to bulk mass of games that gobots are playing. 
therefore CS's it has no relevance for the rating system. Also 6 months is 
very very short time, and when old games are starting to expire, KGS rating 
will follow. See e.g. CS rating graph for reference.

KGS rating system works brilliantly and it is almost impossible to exploit, 
because only way to exploit it is to make 8d? account and then go kibitzing 
other people's games, but if there are only few games played, it has very 
little influence for system as a whole. Therefore it is certainly better 
rating system than in any other Chess and Go servers. (it is even better 
than Glicko)

People observe KGS-rating system often problematic, because it punishes most 
severely those who are weak players.

one improvement to rating system could be, that it would calculate separate 
ratings for both, slow and blitz games.

6d for MC-gobot seems a bit optimistic, I would bet €5 that it won't happen 
in 2012. 6d's are ridiculously strong. I calculated that in January, out of 
56 games against 5d's CS won 48%. This is indeed impressive, although there 
is long way to beat 6d's in even game.

 –Jouni


On 7 January 2012 21:03, Jeff Nowakowski  wrote:

  On 01/02/2012 05:04 PM, Rémi Coulom wrote:


Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current
experimental version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone
2011. That's less than one stone difference on KGS. But I am sure
both Zen and Crazy Stone will reach 6d in 2012.



  There are two problems with the KGS rankings:

  One, they are weighed down a lot by past games from weaker versions.

  Two, you have to worry about people trying to game the system. I found 
strong evidence that one of the frequent CrazyStone players was losing games 
intentionally against a weaker bot, while at the same time winning 
frequently against CrazyStone.

  I brought this up with an admin, and he said they were looking into it, 
but several days have gone by and the player was not deranked (which is the 
usual punishment for gaming the system, and would remove past games from the 
rank calculation).





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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Nick Wedd]

On 07/01/2012 22:06, Michael Williams wrote:

I didn't understand any motivation for doing this with an unrated game.

Humans are assholes.  No motivation needed.

This was a few years ago.

We're even worse now.


That is certainly my impression.  Dealing with sandbaggers used to be 
rare for me - it is now an everyday event.  Though maybe I am just 
becoming more conscientious in my admin duties.


Nick


Thouroughly off-topic now, sorry.


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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Michael Williams]

>
> I didn't understand any motivation for doing this with an unrated game.
>

Humans are assholes.  No motivation needed.


> This was a few years ago.
>
>

We're even worse now.


Thouroughly off-topic now, sorry.
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Robert Jasiek]

On 07.01.2012 21:07, Jouni Valkonen wrote:

KGS rating system works brilliantly


Wrong.


and it is almost impossible to exploit,


Wrong.

Both topics are off-topic for this mailing list though, so I do not go 
into details here (unless you insist).


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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Jeff Nowakowski]

On 01/07/2012 03:07 PM, Jouni Valkonen wrote:

Jeff, it does not matter what ten humans does with the games, because
they are insignificant compared to bulk mass of games that gobots are
playing. therefore CS's it has no relevance for the rating system.


Maybe, but you may be underestimating how much damage a few dedicated
players can do. This one player accounted for about 8% of the games
against CrazyStone since November, and because he lost so many games
against solid bots, he affects the rank even more than a regular player.


Also 6 months is very very short time, and when old games are
starting to expire, KGS rating will follow. See e.g. CS rating graph
for reference.


I think waiting months for old games to expire when you make an
improvement is not so good. If I was running bots on KGS I'd have 7
rotating accounts, and only play an account for a month so that it
wouldn't get heavy.


KGS rating system works brilliantly and it is almost impossible to
exploit,


It's a lot easier than you think, and I've reported a few people where
something is clearly being abused, whether it is sandbagging or cheating
to get a higher rank.


6d for MC-gobot seems a bit optimistic, I would bet €5 that it won't
happen in 2012. 6d's are ridiculously strong. I calculated that in
January, out of 56 games against 5d's CS won 48%. This is indeed
impressive, although there is long way to beat 6d's in even game.


Zen19d is already winning 64% out of 59 games that are even and 56% out
of 27 against higher rank since November:

http://kgs.gosquares.net/index.rhtml.en?id=Zen19d&id2=&r=1&ty=2011&tm=11

I would be very surprised if it isn't 6d in 2012.

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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Jeff Nowakowski]

On 01/07/2012 02:59 PM, Nick Wedd wrote:


If this is the user I think it is, there are too many losses for it to
be coincidence.


Yes, he lost dozens of games in a row. After I sent my message to the 
admin, he then won a couple. Coincidence? Seems unlikely.



I am suspicious, but at 3k I am not strong enough to spot suspicious
moves in his losses against the weaker bot. I shall try to persuade a
stronger admin to check on his losses.


A lot of these games were stopped well before the end and for no 
apparent reason on the board, something this player didn't do when 
playing CrazyStone.


Since many of these losses were against 3k bots, it would be enough to 
use a public version of a bot with equal or stronger rank and play the 
game out in self-play. If the bot in his position wins several times, 
it's clear he had no reason to be resigning so early.


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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Don Dailey]

>
>
>> Why would someone do this?
>>
>
> As an admin, I waste enough time dealing with anti-social behaviour.  I
> have learned not to waste more by speculating on its motivations.
>
>
>   Is it a vendetta against CrazyStone or
>
> If I am asked to speculate - I think he is doing this just because he can.
>  He is strong enough to beat CrazyStone, but if that is all he ever does,
> his rating will rise until his wins are ineffective (or he is asked to give
> it enough handicap that he can't beat it).  So he reduces his rating by
> bogus losses against another program.


It never ceases to amaze me what people will do - whether your speculation
here is correct or not.   When I was developing Lazarus I played some games
on KGS and when some players were dead lost they would stop the game,  mark
all of Lazarus stones as dead and then disappear. I didn't understand
any motivation for doing this with an unrated game.This was a few years
ago.
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Jouni Valkonen]

Jeff, it does not matter what ten humans does with the games, because they
are insignificant compared to bulk mass of games that gobots are playing.
therefore CS's it has no relevance for the rating system. Also 6 months is
very very short time, and when old games are starting to expire, KGS rating
will follow. See e.g. CS rating graph for reference.

KGS rating system works brilliantly and it is almost impossible to exploit,
because only way to exploit it is to make 8d? account and then go kibitzing
other people's games, but if there are only few games played, it has very
little influence for system as a whole. Therefore it is certainly better
rating system than in any other Chess and Go servers. (it is even better
than Glicko)

People observe KGS-rating system often problematic, because it punishes
most severely those who are weak players.

one improvement to rating system could be, that it would calculate separate
ratings for both, slow and blitz games.

6d for MC-gobot seems a bit optimistic, I would bet €5 that it won't happen
in 2012. 6d's are ridiculously strong. I calculated that in January, out of
56 games against 5d's CS won 48%. This is indeed impressive, although there
is long way to beat 6d's in even game.

 –Jouni

On 7 January 2012 21:03, Jeff Nowakowski  wrote:

> On 01/02/2012 05:04 PM, Rémi Coulom wrote:
>
>>
>> Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current
>> experimental version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone
>> 2011. That's less than one stone difference on KGS. But I am sure
>> both Zen and Crazy Stone will reach 6d in 2012.
>>
>
> There are two problems with the KGS rankings:
>
> One, they are weighed down a lot by past games from weaker versions.
>
> Two, you have to worry about people trying to game the system. I found
> strong evidence that one of the frequent CrazyStone players was losing
> games intentionally against a weaker bot, while at the same time winning
> frequently against CrazyStone.
>
> I brought this up with an admin, and he said they were looking into it,
> but several days have gone by and the player was not deranked (which is the
> usual punishment for gaming the system, and would remove past games from
> the rank calculation).
>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Nick Wedd]

On 07/01/2012 19:30, Don Dailey wrote:


On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 2:03 PM, Jeff Nowakowski mailto:j...@dilacero.org>> wrote:

On 01/02/2012 05:04 PM, Rémi Coulom wrote:


Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current
experimental version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone
2011. That's less than one stone difference on KGS. But I am sure
both Zen and Crazy Stone will reach 6d in 2012.


There are two problems with the KGS rankings:

One, they are weighed down a lot by past games from weaker versions.

Two, you have to worry about people trying to game the system. I
found strong evidence that one of the frequent CrazyStone players
was losing games intentionally against a weaker bot, while at the
same time winning frequently against CrazyStone.


Why would someone do this?


As an admin, I waste enough time dealing with anti-social behaviour.  I 
have learned not to waste more by speculating on its motivations.


   Is it a vendetta against CrazyStone or

If I am asked to speculate - I think he is doing this just because he 
can.  He is strong enough to beat CrazyStone, but if that is all he ever 
does, his rating will rise until his wins are ineffective (or he is 
asked to give it enough handicap that he can't beat it).  So he reduces 
his rating by bogus losses against another program.



could it be some kind of  pump and dump scheme? What I mean is the
scheme where you basically give a bunch of your rating points to another
player for safe keeping,   recover them by playing normally against
other players, and then take them back from the original player.


Over-fanciful, I think.  Users certainly do what you describe, but they
don't use bots, they use others of their own accounts


  It's even possible that he operating the computer player he was using
which would make this easy to do. The admin can probably check to
see if the login times frequently coincide or if this bot plays a lot of
other players or mostly just him.


He uses several computer players, all operated by the same person, whom 
I know and trust to act honestly.



And maybe it's just a coincidence?


If this is the user I think it is, there are too many losses for it to 
be coincidence.



Don


I brought this up with an admin, and he said they were looking into
it, but several days have gone by and the player was not deranked
(which is the usual punishment for gaming the system, and would
remove past games from the rank calculation).


I am suspicious, but at 3k I am not strong enough to spot suspicious 
moves in his losses against the weaker bot.  I shall try to persuade a 
stronger admin to check on his losses.


Nick
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Don Dailey]

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 2:03 PM, Jeff Nowakowski  wrote:

> On 01/02/2012 05:04 PM, Rémi Coulom wrote:
>
>>
>> Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current
>> experimental version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone
>> 2011. That's less than one stone difference on KGS. But I am sure
>> both Zen and Crazy Stone will reach 6d in 2012.
>>
>
> There are two problems with the KGS rankings:
>
> One, they are weighed down a lot by past games from weaker versions.
>
> Two, you have to worry about people trying to game the system. I found
> strong evidence that one of the frequent CrazyStone players was losing
> games intentionally against a weaker bot, while at the same time winning
> frequently against CrazyStone.
>

Why would someone do this?   Is it a vendetta against CrazyStone or could
it be some kind of  pump and dump scheme? What I mean is the scheme
where you basically give a bunch of your rating points to another player
for safe keeping,   recover them by playing normally against other players,
and then take them back from the original player.  It's even possible
that he operating the computer player he was using which would make this
easy to do. The admin can probably check to see if the login times
frequently coincide or if this bot plays a lot of other players or mostly
just him.

And maybe it's just a coincidence?

Don



>
> I brought this up with an admin, and he said they were looking into it,
> but several days have gone by and the player was not deranked (which is the
> usual punishment for gaming the system, and would remove past games from
> the rank calculation).
>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Jeff Nowakowski]

On 01/02/2012 05:04 PM, Rémi Coulom wrote:


Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current
experimental version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone
2011. That's less than one stone difference on KGS. But I am sure
both Zen and Crazy Stone will reach 6d in 2012.


There are two problems with the KGS rankings:

One, they are weighed down a lot by past games from weaker versions.

Two, you have to worry about people trying to game the system. I found 
strong evidence that one of the frequent CrazyStone players was losing 
games intentionally against a weaker bot, while at the same time winning 
frequently against CrazyStone.


I brought this up with an admin, and he said they were looking into it, 
but several days have gone by and the player was not deranked (which is 
the usual punishment for gaming the system, and would remove past games 
from the rank calculation).


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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[David Fotland]

It was weaker, but I have to do more experiments.  I didn’t compare move 
proposals.  I just ran 2000-game tournaments vs gnugo before and after.  Win 
rage went from 84.9% to 78.9%.  I need to try it again with fewer variables and 
more games.  I still think it is a great tool.

David

> -Original Message-
> From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
> boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of "Ingo Althöfer"
> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 5:09 AM
> To: computer-go@dvandva.org
> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
> 
> Hi David,
> 
> David Fotland on CLOP-optimization:
> > I tried it, but got no benefit so far.  It claimed to find better settings
> > for most parameters, but when I used them the program wasn�t any
> > stronger.
> 
> Interestant. Had it similar strength or did it even become weaker?
> How often did the move proposals by your "older" ManyFaces and the
> CLOP-MF differ?
> 
> Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Jouni Valkonen]

That would be great idea. it would be interesting to watch. Although with
slow thinking times, I feel sad for the gobots, because they do not have a
chance against any of those. Anyway, this kind of matches would be great to
watch, because there might be surprises, still.

  –Jouni

On 3 January 2012 15:11, Jacques Basaldúa  wrote:

>  Maybe a tournament is not the best way to see quality computer/human
> games. There are better ways to measure the computer/computer performance
> and the human/human performance is not interesting here. We could simply
> schedule computer/human games on KGS (e.g., 3 times a year, one in each
> time zone afternoon) with around 4 KGS 5d+ humans and the 2 bots Zen and
> CrazyStone. Obvious human candidates are: Aja Huang, Robert Jasiek, Stefan
> Kaitschick, BotHater (don't know his name). Humans could use this list to
> subscribe and the pairings could be listed in advance. I don't think there
> are masses of KGS 5d+ players. It would be fun to watch.
>
> ** **
>
> Jacques.
>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[ds]

The can take place in the auto pairing and choose some of the criteria
as far as I know.


Am Dienstag, den 03.01.2012, 16:02 + schrieb Nick Wedd: 
> On 03/01/2012 15:19, terry mcintyre wrote:
> > Does KGS support the ability to challenge a specific opponent?
> 
> Yes.
> 
>   Could
> > computer programs respond to such challenges, modulo specific criteria
> > such as player rank, games per period, notoriety, etc?
> 
> Bots playing on KGS cannot, I believe, accept existing challenges.
> 
> Nick
> 
> > Terry McIntyre 
> >
> > Unix/Linux Systems Administration
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Petr Baudis]

On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 04:02:18PM +, Nick Wedd wrote:
> On 03/01/2012 15:19, terry mcintyre wrote:
> >Does KGS support the ability to challenge a specific opponent?
> 
> Yes.
> 
>  Could
> >computer programs respond to such challenges, modulo specific criteria
> >such as player rank, games per period, notoriety, etc?
> 
> Bots playing on KGS cannot, I believe, accept existing challenges.

They can, using mode=wait and the 'opponent' variable.

With little work, it would be possible to make e.g. a web-based
challenging system where you could choose challengers in a more
controlled way than KGS offers. kgsGtp would terminate after each game
and be restarted with a newly generated config file with the appropriate
opponent settings. It's just a matter of spending time on it. I didn't
feel the incentive since Pachi is not so strong yet. ;-)

-- 
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The goal of Computer Science is to build something that will
last at least until we've finished building it.
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Nick Wedd]

On 03/01/2012 15:19, terry mcintyre wrote:

Does KGS support the ability to challenge a specific opponent?


Yes.

 Could

computer programs respond to such challenges, modulo specific criteria
such as player rank, games per period, notoriety, etc?


Bots playing on KGS cannot, I believe, accept existing challenges.

Nick


Terry McIntyre 

Unix/Linux Systems Administration



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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Don Dailey]

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Rémi Coulom  wrote:

> As a human player, I would be opposed to playing against a program in a
> tournament. So I don't wish to participate in human tournaments with Crazy
> Stone.
>
> When I was bringing my chess program to human tournaments,   I was in a
sort of conflict of interest because I sympathized with the human players.
   I wanted to get some experience with human play because when developing
I always played other programs or self-play but I felt bad when one of the
players felt that they were manipulated into playing the computer. Many
did NOT sign the no-computer list simply because they forgot or were not
asked to or knew the odds were low that they would play.

My worst experience was in one of the US opens where my program was allowed
to play only in the main tournament,  but most of the side events including
the speed chess tournaments I was not allowed to play. I payed a lot of
money to travel that year and to get a lot of games with a lot of feedback
from humans and felt cheated.

I'm afraid that human and computers don't mix.   Or at least they don't mix
unless someone is willing to play them.




> Also, having to operate the program manually would be a huge pain. Playing
> casual games automatically on KGS is much more pleasant for me, and not
> less interesting to watch than tournament games. Regardless of time
> control, the level of play is immensely higher than mine, anyway.
>
> Rémi
>
> On 3 janv. 2012, at 13:09, Ingo Althöfer wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am in charge of organizing the computer go parts of the European
> > Go Congress 2012.
> > Before asking the main congress organizers if they were willing to allow
> > a computer player in the main tournament I would like to make sure that
> > - when allowed - really a programmer with a strong bot shows up.
> > So, programmers of strong bots: Feel free to contact me soon (best
> > by email - I will treat them confidential) if you are willing to come
> > to Bonn. Your machine may be remote, but you or a member of your team
> > should be in Bonn to operate the program.
> > Some of the strong programs that come to my mind as possible participants
> > are (in rather random order) Zen, CrazyStone, Steenvreter (Bonn is not
> very
> > far from the NL), Erica, ManyFaces, Pachi, MoGo, Aya, Gomorra.
> >
> > Of course, such a participation would mean that each human participant
> > has to declare at the start of the tournament whether he/she is willing
> to
> > be paired against the bot - and these declarations have to be obeyed.
> > Also, computer participants should be excluded from prize money.
> >
> > Jouni wrote:
> >> ... I would love to see strong gobot playing in EGC 2012 main
> >> tournament. Of course there is lots of organizing thing to do, but those
> >> two evil gobots are good enough and still not yet too good to
> participate
> >> into serious human tournaments with long thinking times.
> >
> >
> > EGC 2012 takes place in Bonn (Germany, Rhine area), starting on July 21,
> > and ending on August 04, 2012. The open tournament has 10 rounds, see at:
> > http://www.egc2012.eu/congress/tournaments/open-european-championship
> >
> > In case of a/one computer participant in the main tournament I am willing
> > to help by providing a present for each human player who plays the
> computer.
> >
> > Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Rémi Coulom]

As a human player, I would be opposed to playing against a program in a 
tournament. So I don't wish to participate in human tournaments with Crazy 
Stone.

Also, having to operate the program manually would be a huge pain. Playing 
casual games automatically on KGS is much more pleasant for me, and not less 
interesting to watch than tournament games. Regardless of time control, the 
level of play is immensely higher than mine, anyway.

Rémi

On 3 janv. 2012, at 13:09, Ingo Althöfer wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I am in charge of organizing the computer go parts of the European
> Go Congress 2012. 
> Before asking the main congress organizers if they were willing to allow
> a computer player in the main tournament I would like to make sure that
> - when allowed - really a programmer with a strong bot shows up.
> So, programmers of strong bots: Feel free to contact me soon (best
> by email - I will treat them confidential) if you are willing to come
> to Bonn. Your machine may be remote, but you or a member of your team
> should be in Bonn to operate the program.
> Some of the strong programs that come to my mind as possible participants
> are (in rather random order) Zen, CrazyStone, Steenvreter (Bonn is not very 
> far from the NL), Erica, ManyFaces, Pachi, MoGo, Aya, Gomorra.
> 
> Of course, such a participation would mean that each human participant
> has to declare at the start of the tournament whether he/she is willing to
> be paired against the bot - and these declarations have to be obeyed.
> Also, computer participants should be excluded from prize money.
> 
> Jouni wrote:
>> ... I would love to see strong gobot playing in EGC 2012 main
>> tournament. Of course there is lots of organizing thing to do, but those
>> two evil gobots are good enough and still not yet too good to participate
>> into serious human tournaments with long thinking times.
> 
> 
> EGC 2012 takes place in Bonn (Germany, Rhine area), starting on July 21,
> and ending on August 04, 2012. The open tournament has 10 rounds, see at:
> http://www.egc2012.eu/congress/tournaments/open-european-championship
> 
> In case of a/one computer participant in the main tournament I am willing
> to help by providing a present for each human player who plays the computer.
> 
> Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Robert Jasiek]

On 03.01.2012 15:37, Petr Baudis wrote:
> My hope is that the games might finally become beautiful to watch

They are.

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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[terry mcintyre]

Does KGS support the ability to challenge a specific opponent? Could computer 
programs respond to such challenges, modulo specific criteria such as player 
rank, games per period, notoriety, etc? 

 
Terry McIntyre 


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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Petr Baudis]

On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 12:49:22PM +0100, Robert Jasiek wrote:
> I am not speaking of ordinary mistakes (like choosing a wrong
> direction) but of blunders (like overlooking an atari in three
> moves). While the difference between ordinary mistake and blunder is
> hard to define, I can always identify either in my games because
> there is a quantum jump between the different levels of mistakes.

Fair enough. :-)

> >Do you have any precise idea in mind that would allow reasonable number
> >of (strong) people to play a program, avoid clicking matches and be
> >friendlier to the humans?
> 
> Play for the humans real world games. Ask players of appropriate
> strength. Assign match schedules.

Ok, that would make sense - but require a lot of effort and time. If
you look at it as a matter of a choice of doing that or working on the
program itself, and consider the little extra amount of information you
receive, I'd rather work on the program.

This may change when we approach professional level. My hope is that
the games might finally become beautiful to watch, too.

P.S.: I did not realize that the tournament suggestion could apply for
KGS tournaments too. I hope that in the future, programs will get
a chance to play in human KGS tournaments again, that was nice!

-- 
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The goal of Computer Science is to build something that will
last at least until we've finished building it.
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Nick Wedd]

On 03/01/2012 13:55, Erik van der Werf wrote:

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Robert Jasiek  wrote:

On 03.01.2012 13:58, "Ingo Althöfer" wrote:


"10 games against strong bots within 30 days" would be one possible
condition;



How? The clicking fastest to accept a game match is still the problem.



So the problem is that too many humans want to play strong bots?


Yes.  Getting a game on KGS against a strong bot is difficult.  It 
requires fast reactions to accept the game offer before any other user.


We are considering ways of restricting the number of human entrants to a 
bot tournament on KGS.  If such a tournament is ever held, it is likely 
that I will be running it.  Rather than using rules such as "10 games 
against strong bots within 30 days", I will prefer:
to use my discretion, giving preference to players such as 
BotHater, who I know to understand what is involved

to seek applications only via this list
to deter applications, by pointing out that eight solid hours of 
play against opponents who do not make yose mistakes will not be fun.


My objective will be to avoid people who think that playing in a bot 
tournament will be cool, and then quit when they find that it isn't. 
Ordinary human KGS tournaments have many quitters - see e.g.

  https://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=s&id=625


Perhaps it would help if kgs provided an option in the kgsgtp config
to limit the rank difference where challenges are accepted. Humans can
be picky about their opponents; maybe bots should also be allowed into
that game :-)


There are many options which could usefully be added to the KGS 
bot-server interface.  You are certainly not the first person to have 
suggested this one.  I think it unlikely that any of them will be 
implemented, at least within the next year.

Nick
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Erik van der Werf]

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Robert Jasiek  wrote:
> On 03.01.2012 13:58, "Ingo Althöfer" wrote:
>>
>> "10 games against strong bots within 30 days" would be one possible
>> condition;
>
>
> How? The clicking fastest to accept a game match is still the problem.


So the problem is that too many humans want to play strong bots?

Perhaps it would help if kgs provided an option in the kgsgtp config
to limit the rank difference where challenges are accepted. Humans can
be picky about their opponents; maybe bots should also be allowed into
that game :-)

Erik
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Robert Jasiek]

On 03.01.2012 13:58, "Ingo Althöfer" wrote:

"10 games against strong bots within 30 days" would be one possible condition;


How? The clicking fastest to accept a game match is still the problem.

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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Don Dailey]

An observation:   When computers get strong enough to be a threat to the
stronger players in these tournaments (which is probably already the case),
 tournaments will end up all being Class A.   It will become a default.
Even being called "Class A" (no computers) will make it the defacto
standard.If you didn't know the difference would you rather tell your
friends you were in a "class A" tournament or a "class C" tournament?
They built some bias into the rules for this just by their naming
convention.   Of course it is their right to make the rules,   this is just
an observation.

Years ago in computer chess there were very similar rules about when a
computer could participate and it was basically up to the discretion of the
organizer - but the default policy was NO,  it had to be stated if they
were allowed. Almost immediately that closed the doors on computers
playing at almost every event.

I think there are 2 or 3 improvements here to what we had in chess, such as
the possibility of Class C tournaments.I also like that computers
should not be given additional consideration such as time-outs for hardware
issues - that only serves to antagonize people who don't care about
computers and have to suffer the scheduling consequences.I also agree
that computers should not win prize money.

To be perfectly frank about this my own experience with bringing my own
chess program to tournaments has been rather negative and I tend to side
with the human players who come expecting to play other humans even if they
don't (or forget) to say so.So it makes sense (to me) that there should
only be class A and class C tournaments.

Class C tournaments should be organized specifically for computer
participation with a kind of equal status between computers and humans.
 Humans can be enticed to come to these with the right incentives.  One
incentive is that computers can win prize money but that a portion (or all)
of it is distributed to whoever played the computer.

Don



The TD should also announce the class of tournament before first round
pairings.

> 1. Class A: no computer entrants allowed.
>
2. Class B: computers allowed, but humans have the right to refuse computer
> opponents.
>
Humans wishing to do so must notify the TD before first round pairings.
>
3. Class C: computers allowed; humans may not refuse computer opponents.
>

>
Terry McIntyre 
>

> Unix/Linux Systems Administration
>
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>

>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Robert Jasiek]

On 03.01.2012 13:09, "Ingo Althöfer" wrote:
> The open tournament has 10 rounds

A human championship is not suitable for computers near top ranks. Other 
EGC tournaments are an option more easily. In particular, CG tournaments 
or side events specifically for computers and humans.


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[Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Jacques Basaldúa]

Maybe a tournament is not the best way to see quality computer/human games.
There are better ways to measure the computer/computer performance and the
human/human performance is not interesting here. We could simply schedule
computer/human games on KGS (e.g., 3 times a year, one in each time zone
afternoon) with around 4 KGS 5d+ humans and the 2 bots Zen and CrazyStone.
Obvious human candidates are: Aja Huang, Robert Jasiek, Stefan Kaitschick,
BotHater (don't know his name). Humans could use this list to subscribe and
the pairings could be listed in advance. I don't think there are masses of
KGS 5d+ players. It would be fun to watch.

 

Jacques.

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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hi David,

David Fotland on CLOP-optimization:
> I tried it, but got no benefit so far.  It claimed to find better settings
> for most parameters, but when I used them the program wasn’t any
> stronger.
 
Interestant. Had it similar strength or did it even become weaker?
How often did the move proposals by your "older" ManyFaces and the
CLOP-MF differ?

Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hello Peter,

> > Have the courage to
> > compete under human conditions! Enter human tournaments!
> 
> That's easy to say.  Do you know a tournament where a program can enter?
> I have tried few times with Pachi, never successfully yet. I think some
> other authors tried as well in the past.

Years ago (in 2001, 2002, 2003; before the Monte Carlo revolution) we
had human go tournaments in Jena where some human+bot-constructions
(3-Hirn and others) participated. Three details made it a success:
* Participants declared before round 1 if they were willing to play against
such beasts.
* We had prizes (little books) for those who actually played against them.
* For the local and regional press (and TV) "computer participation" was
a highlight. They mainly reported on these experiments, but also about
the tournament itself.

Ingo.


 
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Ingo Althöfer]

steve uurtamo wrote:
> i'd remove or alter the second requirement, it's actually quite hard
> to get that many games against strong bots, and doesn't add much
> (anything?) to the play for people to have done so.

The main reason to have is to avoid that someone enters who has
no (or almost no) experience with bot play and later starts complaining
(or steps back silently) when the tournament does not run well.

"10 games against strong bots within 30 days" would be one possible condition;
it might also be okay to ask instead for 5 games within the last 90 days.

Ingo.

PS: By "strong bot" I mean not only Zen and CrazyStone, but also Pachi,
Aya, ManyFaces, GinseiIgo, Steenvreter, Gomorra ...


> what you would want to see is strong players in a tournament, right? i
> agree about the rank ordering.
> 
> s.
> 
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 4:14 AM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>
> wrote:
> > Hello, my two cent:
> >
> >> > or, if that's too hard to organize, to allow people to enter some of
> >> > the machine tournaments. ;)
> >>
> >> I can consider that.  How would I select the human players?
> >
> > People may apply. Only players with several KGS games (for instance >=
> 10
> > within the last 30 days before the application) against "strong" bots
> > are acceptable. If there are still more applicants than slots
> > those with the highest KGS ratings should be accepted.
> >
> > Ingo.
> >
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[terry mcintyre]

The American Go Association allows computer entrants. 

I found the following in the AGA tournament guide:


C. Computer entry. Computers may enter tournaments under certain conditions: 1. 
Only the inventor of the hardware/program or his/her designated agent may enter 
the computer (hereafter, either inventor or agent are called the operator.); 

2. The computer must correctly handle any move legal for it or its opponent to 
make andmust not make any illegal moves; 

3. Both computer and operator must be AGA members;
4. The operator must play computer moves on a regular board and "punch the 
clock" for the computer;
5. The operator may enter or adjust playing parameters before a round begins, 
but not during a round;
6. The computer's clock must be left ticking if the operator must fix hardware 
or software problems.
7. The operator may offer to resign on the computer's behalf.
D. Classes of computer participation. There are three classes of computer 
tournament participation. Tournament publicity should indicate what class a 
tournament is ahead of time; if not announced, the tournament is automatically 
class B. The TD should also announce the class of tournament before first round 
pairings.
1. Class A: no computer entrants allowed. 

2. Class B: computers allowed, but humans have the right to refuse computer 
opponents.
Humans wishing to do so must notify the TD before first round pairings.
3. Class C: computers allowed; humans may not refuse computer opponents.

 
Terry McIntyre 


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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Don Dailey]

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 2:42 AM, Robert Jasiek  wrote:

> On 02.01.2012 23:47, David Fotland wrote:
> > 15 seconds is
>
>> pretty reasonable for a quick game, and 9 periods allows a couple of long
>> thinks.
>>
>
> LOL. Long thinks means allowing for 30 minutes of difficult LD solving!
>
> "reasonable for a quick game" is too imprecise. It is only a special type
> of quick game: online byoyomi only style. E.g., real world sudden death
> quick games have a very different nature.
>
> Reasonable? As long as a player does not know when he going to play
> (because he has to participate in the game match accepting click war), he
> suffers from the psychological disadvantage of suddenly being involved in a
> game.
>
> Humans make blunders in byoyomi only games. I do not know how many but it
> is quite some number. I also do not know how many blunders computers make.
> One thing I do know: In a real world game with long thinking times, the 5d+
> human's blunder rate per game is below 1 move on average. IOW, you cannot
> compare online byoyomi games with human long thinking time games at all. It
> is not as bad as Nihon Kiin certificates for programs but almost as bad to
> set computer-friendly conditions all the time. Have the courage to compete
> under human conditions! Enter human tournaments!


I know byoyomi is traditional, but I believe the Fischer clock is far more
sane for human play.  I believe you could play the games with less time
using Fischer with higher quality too.   With Fischer the time you don't
use is never taken from you and there is not the constant clock pressure.
 Even if the main time was 5 minutes with 5 seconds fischer increment I
think it would be far more conducive to strong play than 15 seconds
byoyomi.

Do they use fischer clock at all in any go competitions?




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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[steve uurtamo]

i'd remove or alter the second requirement, it's actually quite hard
to get that many games against strong bots, and doesn't add much
(anything?) to the play for people to have done so.

what you would want to see is strong players in a tournament, right? i
agree about the rank ordering.

s.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 4:14 AM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hello, my two cent:
>
>> > or, if that's too hard to organize, to allow people to enter some of
>> > the machine tournaments. ;)
>>
>> I can consider that.  How would I select the human players?
>
> People may apply. Only players with several KGS games (for instance >= 10
> within the last 30 days before the application) against "strong" bots
> are acceptable. If there are still more applicants than slots
> those with the highest KGS ratings should be accepted.
>
> Ingo.
>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hello, my two cent:
 
> > or, if that's too hard to organize, to allow people to enter some of
> > the machine tournaments. ;)
> 
> I can consider that.  How would I select the human players? 

People may apply. Only players with several KGS games (for instance >= 10 
within the last 30 days before the application) against "strong" bots
are acceptable. If there are still more applicants than slots
those with the highest KGS ratings should be accepted.

Ingo.

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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hello,

I am in charge of organizing the computer go parts of the European
Go Congress 2012. 
Before asking the main congress organizers if they were willing to allow
a computer player in the main tournament I would like to make sure that
- when allowed - really a programmer with a strong bot shows up.
So, programmers of strong bots: Feel free to contact me soon (best
by email - I will treat them confidential) if you are willing to come
to Bonn. Your machine may be remote, but you or a member of your team
should be in Bonn to operate the program.
Some of the strong programs that come to my mind as possible participants
are (in rather random order) Zen, CrazyStone, Steenvreter (Bonn is not very 
far from the NL), Erica, ManyFaces, Pachi, MoGo, Aya, Gomorra.

Of course, such a participation would mean that each human participant
has to declare at the start of the tournament whether he/she is willing to
be paired against the bot - and these declarations have to be obeyed.
Also, computer participants should be excluded from prize money.

Jouni wrote:
> ... I would love to see strong gobot playing in EGC 2012 main
> tournament. Of course there is lots of organizing thing to do, but those
> two evil gobots are good enough and still not yet too good to participate
> into serious human tournaments with long thinking times.
 

EGC 2012 takes place in Bonn (Germany, Rhine area), starting on July 21,
and ending on August 04, 2012. The open tournament has 10 rounds, see at:
http://www.egc2012.eu/congress/tournaments/open-european-championship

In case of a/one computer participant in the main tournament I am willing
to help by providing a present for each human player who plays the computer.

Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[steve uurtamo]

> I can consider that.  How would I select the human players?  I can't let
> people join without restriction, that might produce many more human players
> than bots, and undermine a major source of KGS revenue.  Though I guess the
> tough schedule, close to eight hours of solid play, would be a deterrent.

i dunno, the first 4 (8?) people to mail you from the list with kgs
accounts? i'd be surprised if there were a flood of people willing to
play that very tough schedule. or if there were, more than once.

s.
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Nick Wedd]

On 03/01/2012 11:42, steve uurtamo wrote:

The tournaments I organise on KGS do not include any with an hour each.


it would be nice for machines to be allowed to enter the regular
tournaments as well. :)


Sometimes, they are.  See
  http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=s&id=600
  http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=s&id=601
Zen came second in both of these; pachi also did well.

The decision here will probably be with KGS admin 'sweety'.

Most regular tournaments on KGS are open only to paying customers, i.e. 
"KGS+" subscribers.  So an issue is likely to be - do these paying 
customers want bots playing in their tournaments?



or, if that's too hard to organize, to allow people to enter some of
the machine tournaments. ;)


I can consider that.  How would I select the human players?  I can't let 
people join without restriction, that might produce many more human 
players than bots, and undermine a major source of KGS revenue.  Though 
I guess the tough schedule, close to eight hours of solid play, would be 
a deterrent.


Nick
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Robert Jasiek]

On 03.01.2012 12:25, Petr Baudis wrote:

What is "blunder rate"?


The blunder rate is the average number of blunders per game. A blunder 
is a mistake that is a) big and b) the player could have avoided rather 
easily by thinking a bit more and given his go insight.



When you watch a professional review of
a high dan amateur game, there certainly does seem to be a lot of
"blunders".


I am not speaking of ordinary mistakes (like choosing a wrong direction) 
but of blunders (like overlooking an atari in three moves). While the 
difference between ordinary mistake and blunder is hard to define, I can 
always identify either in my games because there is a quantum jump 
between the different levels of mistakes.



Isn't it a matter of perspective? :-)


No. It is a matter of proper usage of the phrases "ordinary mistake" and 
"blunder".



It is not as bad as Nihon Kiin certificates for programs

Wow, did that ever happen?!


I though it was like that when the programs were about 9k but given 3k 
certificates.



Do you have any precise idea in mind that would allow reasonable number
of (strong) people to play a program, avoid clicking matches and be
friendlier to the humans?


Play for the humans real world games. Ask players of appropriate 
strength. Assign match schedules.



Do you know a tournament where a program can enter?


I agree that it requires work.

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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[steve uurtamo]

i think that kgs players might be more open-minded about this.

s.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 3:44 AM, Nick Wedd  wrote:
> On 03/01/2012 11:25, Petr Baudis wrote:
>
> < snip >
>
>
>>> Have the courage to
>>> compete under human conditions! Enter human tournaments!
>>
>>
>> That's easy to say.  Do you know a tournament where a program can enter?
>> I have tried few times with Pachi, never successfully yet. I think some
>> other authors tried as well in the past.
>
>
> Many years ago, when running a Go tournament for humans, I allowed a program
> to enter.  It only played in rounds in which the number of human entrants
> was odd, so as to avoid byes (I thought, "surely playing a game against a
> program is better than sitting around reading a newspaper for a round?").
>  But I was reprimanded by the British Go Association, and told never to do
> this again.
>
> Nick
> --
> Nick Wedd
> n...@maproom.co.uk
>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Nick Wedd]

On 03/01/2012 11:25, Petr Baudis wrote:

< snip >


Have the courage to
compete under human conditions! Enter human tournaments!


That's easy to say.  Do you know a tournament where a program can enter?
I have tried few times with Pachi, never successfully yet. I think some
other authors tried as well in the past.


Many years ago, when running a Go tournament for humans, I allowed a 
program to enter.  It only played in rounds in which the number of human 
entrants was odd, so as to avoid byes (I thought, "surely playing a game 
against a program is better than sitting around reading a newspaper for 
a round?").  But I was reprimanded by the British Go Association, and 
told never to do this again.


Nick
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[steve uurtamo]

> The tournaments I organise on KGS do not include any with an hour each.

it would be nice for machines to be allowed to enter the regular
tournaments as well. :)

or, if that's too hard to organize, to allow people to enter some of
the machine tournaments. ;)

s.
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Jouni Valkonen]

On 3 January 2012 13:25, Petr Baudis  wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 08:42:31AM +0100, Robert Jasiek wrote:
> > but almost as bad to set computer-friendly conditions all the time.
> Do you have any precise idea in mind that would allow reasonable number
> of (strong) people to play a program, avoid clicking matches and be
> friendlier to the humans?
>
> yes there is very clear idea, that we want strong gobots into human
tournaments. Especially into slow KGS tournaments and I think that this
would be sufficient and objective enough source for data.

These conditions are more friendly for humans. Although they are not
perfect such as in EGC main tournament.

  –Jouni
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Nick Wedd]

On 03/01/2012 07:47, Jouni Valkonen wrote:



On 3 January 2012 00:53, Aja Huang mailto:ajahu...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Blitz games such as 15s/move favor MCTS programs. I expect both Zen
and CrazyStone will drop to 4d in longer games.


It would be nice to have bot Zen and CS in slower (ca. 60min)
tournaments. I remember that Zen has participated at least to one KGS
tournament, and did good, but more data would be nice. from slower
thinking time. Byouyomi playing is always little bit difficult for humans.


The tournaments I organise on KGS do not include any with an hour each. 
 This is because most of them are held within a single 8-hour session, 
and are Swiss, so an hour each would mean only for rounds, which I think 
is not enough.  A few of them are held over most of a week, and have all 
had at least two hours per player per game.


These tournaments all use something close to absolute time (Canadian 
overtime of 10 moves in 30 seconds) so as to use the time effectively.


I am open to persuasion to change any of this.

Zen has been taking a short holiday from these tournaments, and 
CrazyStone has not played in one since April 2010

  http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/58/index.html
when it came second, behind Zen.

The next one will be on January 15th, with 19x19 boards and time limits 
of ~30 minutes each.  I am hoping that Zen and CrazyStone will both take 
part.


Nick



Also, especially, I would love to see strong gobot playing in EGC 2012
main tournament. Of course there is lots of organizing thing to do, but
those two evil gobots are good enough and still not yet too good to
participate into serious human tournaments with long thinking times.

I personally prefer to play 80×20sec at KGS. It quite nice playing pace.
There is 28 minutes for thinking + 20 sec for each moves. It is
significantly better for humans than 20 min + 5×30 sec, although total
game is length is roughly the same.

–Jouni




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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Petr Baudis]

On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 08:42:31AM +0100, Robert Jasiek wrote:
> Reasonable? As long as a player does not know when he going to play
> (because he has to participate in the game match accepting click
> war), he suffers from the psychological disadvantage of suddenly
> being involved in a game.

There's no very good solution. With some programs, you can install them
on your computer and play them at their leisure, but the power of your
hardware matters a lot.

> Humans make blunders in byoyomi only games. I do not know how many
> but it is quite some number. I also do not know how many blunders
> computers make. One thing I do know: In a real world game with long
> thinking times, the 5d+ human's blunder rate per game is below 1
> move on average. IOW, you cannot compare online byoyomi games with
> human long thinking time games at all.

What is "blunder rate"? When you watch a professional review of
a high dan amateur game, there certainly does seem to be a lot of
"blunders". Isn't it a matter of perspective? :-)

> It is not as bad as Nihon Kiin certificates for programs

Wow, did that ever happen?!

> but almost as bad to set computer-friendly conditions all the time.

Do you have any precise idea in mind that would allow reasonable number
of (strong) people to play a program, avoid clicking matches and be
friendlier to the humans?

> Have the courage to
> compete under human conditions! Enter human tournaments!

That's easy to say.  Do you know a tournament where a program can enter?
I have tried few times with Pachi, never successfully yet. I think some
other authors tried as well in the past.

Petr "Pasky" Baudis
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Rémi Coulom]

On 3 janv. 2012, at 00:04, Ingo Althöfer wrote:
> One point I forgot in the original message:
> Congratulations to Remi for the fine performance of his bot!

Thanks :-)

> 
> Remi Coulom wrote:
> 
>>> Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current experimental
>>> version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone 2011. That's less than
>>> one stone difference on KGS. 
> 
> One question out of interest: At which time controls did you run these
> selfplay games?

250k playouts per game. That's almost as strong as 2k playouts per move, but I 
use time (playout) management, so it is faster. 19x19.

Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Jouni Valkonen]

On 3 January 2012 00:53, Aja Huang  wrote:

>   Blitz games such as 15s/move favor MCTS programs. I expect both Zen and
> CrazyStone will drop to 4d in longer games.
>

It would be nice to have bot Zen and CS in slower (ca. 60min) tournaments.
I remember that Zen has participated at least to one KGS tournament, and
did good, but more data would be nice. from slower thinking time. Byouyomi
playing is always little bit difficult for humans.

Also, especially, I would love to see strong gobot playing in EGC 2012 main
tournament. Of course there is lots of organizing thing to do, but those
two evil gobots are good enough and still not yet too good to participate
into serious human tournaments with long thinking times.

I personally prefer to play 80×20sec at KGS. It quite nice playing pace.
There is 28 minutes for thinking + 20 sec for each moves. It is
significantly better for humans than 20 min + 5×30 sec, although total game
is length is roughly the same.

–Jouni
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Robert Jasiek]

On 02.01.2012 23:47, David Fotland wrote:
> 15 seconds is

pretty reasonable for a quick game, and 9 periods allows a couple of long
thinks.


LOL. Long thinks means allowing for 30 minutes of difficult LD solving!

"reasonable for a quick game" is too imprecise. It is only a special 
type of quick game: online byoyomi only style. E.g., real world sudden 
death quick games have a very different nature.


Reasonable? As long as a player does not know when he going to play 
(because he has to participate in the game match accepting click war), 
he suffers from the psychological disadvantage of suddenly being 
involved in a game.


Humans make blunders in byoyomi only games. I do not know how many but 
it is quite some number. I also do not know how many blunders computers 
make. One thing I do know: In a real world game with long thinking 
times, the 5d+ human's blunder rate per game is below 1 move on average. 
IOW, you cannot compare online byoyomi games with human long thinking 
time games at all. It is not as bad as Nihon Kiin certificates for 
programs but almost as bad to set computer-friendly conditions all the 
time. Have the courage to compete under human conditions! Enter human 
tournaments!


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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Hideki Kato]

Rémi Coulom: <4f1b78d7-1591-4921-9483-f81825d5a...@free.fr>:
>On 2 janv. 2012, at 20:12, David Fotland wrote:
>
>> Very impressive.  Does anyone know the relative hardware?  I think the 5 dan
>> Zen was running on 26 cores.
>
>Thanks for the nice comments. I am running on 24 cores (Dell PowerEdge R905 
>Rack Server, 4 x 
>Six-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 8439 SE, 2.8GHz). But it is only one 
>machine. So my 24 
>cores are probably much more efficient than the 26 cores of Zen.

The main pc of my cluster is a dual Xeon X5680, 2 x six-core of 4.2 GHz 
(total 50.4 GHz), and Rémi's pc is 67.2 (12 x 2.8) GHz in total.   Also 
the IPC (instructions per clock) of Gulftown Xeon could be slightly 
better than Istanbul Opteron.  So, I believe the difference of the 
hardware is not so much.

Hideki

>> 
>> Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP?  It's an
>> excellent tool BTW.  Thank you for sharing it.
>
>The big improvement I got recently came from tuning one parameter that I had 
>forgotten to 
>tune for a few years. I tuned it with CLOP, but I would have probably got the 
>same result if 
>I had tuned it manually (about +100 Elo in self play, both on 9x9 and 19x19). 
>CLOP simply 
>makes tuning a lot more convenient. I really enjoy using it very much. I am 
>glad if people 
>like it too.
>
>I also fixed a silly bug that was worth 30 Elo in self-play.
>
>Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current experimental 
>version of Crazy 
>Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone 2011. That's less than one stone difference 
>on KGS. But I 
>am sure both Zen and Crazy Stone will reach 6d in 2012.
>
>Rémi
>
>> 
>> -David
>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
>>> boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of "Ingo Althöfer"
>>> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM
>>> To: computer-go@dvandva.org
>>> Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
>>> 
>>> Hello everybody,
>>> 
>>> let us start the new year also in the mailing list.
>>> It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for
>>> its position as leading bot on KGS.
>>> Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom)
>>> has started a long playing session in KGS computer room,
>>> and has now established a stable 5-dan rating.
>>> 
>>> See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at
>>> http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone
>>> 
>>> and the list of games at
>>> http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone&year=2011&month=12
>>> and
>>> http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone&year=2012&month=1
>>> 
>>> Ingo
>>> (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS
>>> before the European Go Congress in July 2012)
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Don Dailey]

Thanks for the nice explanation.So this is a kind of defacto standard
then - that is a good thing.

Don


On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 5:47 PM, David Fotland wrote:

> For the last year or so, all the bots have been using this time control
> (nine 15-second periods), so the bot ratings can be compared.  All the
> periods are the same 15 seconds.  So any time over 15 seconds uses one of
> the periods (over 30 seconds would use two periods, etc).  15 seconds is
> pretty reasonable for a quick game, and 9 periods allows a couple of long
> thinks.
>
> ** **
>
> David
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:
> computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] *On Behalf Of *Don Dailey
> *Sent:* Monday, January 02, 2012 2:28 PM
> *To:* computer-go@dvandva.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>
> wrote:
>
> Hello Don,
>
>
> > What time control was used for these games or did it vary?
>
> In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with
> 9 byoyomi phases.
>
> ** **
>
> I don't think that specifies the time control does it?So if a player
> exceeds 15 seconds he starts to use one of his byoyomi periods?How long
> for the byoyomi phases?  
>
> ** **
>
> I don't think 15 seconds per move average is bad for humans at all,  but
> if you have to make each move in 15 seconds it's horrible and I can see
> that this is going to make the computer really look good.  
>
> ** **
>
> For making strength claims there should be some sort of standard.   You
> could take almost any program and get 5 dan or more  by setting the time to
> 1 second per move. 
>
> ** **
>
> Don 
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
>  
>
>
> Ingo.
>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Ingo Althöfer]

Steve uurtamo  wrote:
> keep up the great work -- the bigger the pool of strong machine
> players, the better for everyone.

Right. Having a pool of several bots with similar strength in
the top typically results in faster progress.

And one day (maybe in two years or so) we need someone like Fabien Letouzy
in chess: making the source of his Fruit public in 2005 was the starting
point for an explosion in performance. (By the way: congratulations to
Don Dailey for his strong new chess program "Komodo 4"! He made it public
a few days before Christmas. It jumped immediately to rank 2 in one of the
most serious rating lists, see at
http://www.inwoba.de/
"But" one day after Christmas another new program (Critter 1.4) entered the
scene and surpassed Komodo by 2 Elo points. So, Don's baby is now on a
very strong third rank in chess.)

***
One point I forgot in the original message:
Congratulations to Remi for the fine performance of his bot!

Remi Coulom wrote:
> > The big improvement I got recently came from tuning one parameter that I
> > had forgotten to tune for a few years. 

That is one of the errors one can make. Two others are:
(i) forgetting to introduce new parameters;
(ii) forgetting to kick out some old parameters, when new ones come in.


> > Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current experimental
> > version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone 2011. That's less than
> > one stone difference on KGS. 

One question out of interest: At which time controls did you run these
selfplay games?

Ingo.




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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Aja Huang]

I have played several games with the 5 dan CrazyStone (24 cores) and felt 
that it is pretty close to the 5 dan Zen (26 cores) in playing strength. In 
fact, CrazyStone’s playing style is much more balanced and human-like than 
Zen. Specifically, CrazyStone is better than Zen at winning without killing 
or fighting. It has a very good sense of territory and features very good 
pattern shapes, though it is still weaker than Zen in handling semeais.

Blitz games such as 15s/move favor MCTS programs. I expect both Zen and 
CrazyStone will drop to 4d in longer games. The reason is that MCTS programs 
are still not able to (in my opinion) read deepily like human players in 
situations such as big semeai or life-and-death. Also, when against strong 
Go players in fast games MCTS programs rely heavily on accurate territory 
counting. In longer games, this advantage will decrease most if not at all.

Aja

From: Don Dailey
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 3:28 PM
To: computer-go@dvandva.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen




On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de> 
wrote:

  Hello Don,


  > What time control was used for these games or did it vary?


  In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with
  9 byoyomi phases.

I don't think that specifies the time control does it?So if a player 
exceeds 15 seconds he starts to use one of his byoyomi periods?How long 
for the byoyomi phases?

I don't think 15 seconds per move average is bad for humans at all,  but if 
you have to make each move in 15 seconds it's horrible and I can see that 
this is going to make the computer really look good.

For making strength claims there should be some sort of standard.   You 
could take almost any program and get 5 dan or more  by setting the time to 
1 second per move.

Don




  Ingo.


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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[David Fotland]

For the last year or so, all the bots have been using this time control
(nine 15-second periods), so the bot ratings can be compared.  All the
periods are the same 15 seconds.  So any time over 15 seconds uses one of
the periods (over 30 seconds would use two periods, etc).  15 seconds is
pretty reasonable for a quick game, and 9 periods allows a couple of long
thinks.

 

David

 

From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org
[mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Don Dailey
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 2:28 PM
To: computer-go@dvandva.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

 

 

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>
wrote:

Hello Don,


> What time control was used for these games or did it vary?

In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with
9 byoyomi phases.

 

I don't think that specifies the time control does it?So if a player
exceeds 15 seconds he starts to use one of his byoyomi periods?How long
for the byoyomi phases?  

 

I don't think 15 seconds per move average is bad for humans at all,  but if
you have to make each move in 15 seconds it's horrible and I can see that
this is going to make the computer really look good.  

 

For making strength claims there should be some sort of standard.   You
could take almost any program and get 5 dan or more  by setting the time to
1 second per move. 

 

Don 

 

 

 


Ingo.


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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Don Dailey]

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>wrote:

> Hello Don,
>
> > What time control was used for these games or did it vary?
>
> In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with
> 9 byoyomi phases.


I don't think that specifies the time control does it?So if a player
exceeds 15 seconds he starts to use one of his byoyomi periods?How long
for the byoyomi phases?

I don't think 15 seconds per move average is bad for humans at all,  but if
you have to make each move in 15 seconds it's horrible and I can see that
this is going to make the computer really look good.

For making strength claims there should be some sort of standard.   You
could take almost any program and get 5 dan or more  by setting the time to
1 second per move.

Don




>
> Ingo.
>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Don Dailey]

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Nick Wedd  wrote:

> On 02/01/2012 21:05, Don Dailey wrote:
>
>> That's pretty awesome to maintain a 5 dan performance!
>>
>
> Maintaining a 5-dan performance certainly is impressive - but the fast
> time limit makes it somewhat less so.  Programs handle fast time limits
> better than humans do.
>

I'm glad that is finally understood.   Go back just a few years ago  on
this list where I got blasted by almost everyone  for saying the same
thing.

The idea being put forth was that computers need more time to think and
that humans are "intuitive" (which apparently means they don't need to time
to think) and extra time isn't of much use to them because they know pretty
much at a glance what to play.Sound pretty stupid doesn't it?I felt
like I was beating my head against the wall trying to explain how it works.


Don


>
> This sounds as if I am decrying CrazyStone's performance.  That is
> certainly not my intention.  I'll try again:
>
> A 5.4-dan performance is pretty awesome.  A 5.4-dan performance with a
> strong positive slope is even more awesome.  A 5.4-dan performance with a
> positive second derivative is unheard of!
>
> Nick
>
>
>> Don
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de
>> > wrote:
>>
>>Hello Don,
>>
>> > What time control was used for these games or did it vary?
>>
>>In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with
>>9 byoyomi phases.
>>
>>Ingo.
>>
>>
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>>
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>
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[steve uurtamo]

that's great to hear!

there's a categorical and strong empirical difference between players
on kgs that are over 5d from those who are below 5d. it's shockingly
clear in slowish games. i'd love to see a machine at 6d, and expect
that there's nothing stopping it from happening soon.

keep up the great work -- the bigger the pool of strong machine
players, the better for everyone.

s.

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 2:04 PM, Rémi Coulom  wrote:
> On 2 janv. 2012, at 20:12, David Fotland wrote:
>
>> Very impressive.  Does anyone know the relative hardware?  I think the 5 dan
>> Zen was running on 26 cores.
>
> Thanks for the nice comments. I am running on 24 cores (Dell PowerEdge R905 
> Rack Server, 4 x Six-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 8439 SE, 2.8GHz). But it 
> is only one machine. So my 24 cores are probably much more efficient than the 
> 26 cores of Zen.
>
>>
>> Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP?  It's an
>> excellent tool BTW.  Thank you for sharing it.
>
> The big improvement I got recently came from tuning one parameter that I had 
> forgotten to tune for a few years. I tuned it with CLOP, but I would have 
> probably got the same result if I had tuned it manually (about +100 Elo in 
> self play, both on 9x9 and 19x19). CLOP simply makes tuning a lot more 
> convenient. I really enjoy using it very much. I am glad if people like it 
> too.
>
> I also fixed a silly bug that was worth 30 Elo in self-play.
>
> Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current experimental 
> version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone 2011. That's less than 
> one stone difference on KGS. But I am sure both Zen and Crazy Stone will 
> reach 6d in 2012.
>
> Rémi
>
>>
>> -David
>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
>>> boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of "Ingo Althöfer"
>>> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM
>>> To: computer-go@dvandva.org
>>> Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
>>>
>>> Hello everybody,
>>>
>>> let us start the new year also in the mailing list.
>>> It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for
>>> its position as leading bot on KGS.
>>> Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom)
>>> has started a long playing session in KGS computer room,
>>> and has now established a stable 5-dan rating.
>>>
>>> See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at
>>> http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone
>>>
>>> and the list of games at
>>> http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone&year=2011&month=12
>>> and
>>> http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone&year=2012&month=1
>>>
>>> Ingo
>>> (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS
>>> before the European Go Congress in July 2012)
>>> --
>>> Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
>>> belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
>>> ___
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>>> Computer-go@dvandva.org
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>>
>> ___
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Nick Wedd]

On 02/01/2012 21:05, Don Dailey wrote:

That's pretty awesome to maintain a 5 dan performance!


Maintaining a 5-dan performance certainly is impressive - but the fast 
time limit makes it somewhat less so.  Programs handle fast time limits 
better than humans do.


This sounds as if I am decrying CrazyStone's performance.  That is 
certainly not my intention.  I'll try again:


A 5.4-dan performance is pretty awesome.  A 5.4-dan performance with a 
strong positive slope is even more awesome.  A 5.4-dan performance with 
a positive second derivative is unheard of!


Nick



Don


On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de
> wrote:

Hello Don,

 > What time control was used for these games or did it vary?

In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with
9 byoyomi phases.

Ingo.


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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[David Fotland]

I tried it, but got no benefit so far.  It claimed to find better settings
for most parameters, but when I used them the program wasn’t any stronger.

 

From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org
[mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Michael Williams
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:22 AM
To: computer-go@dvandva.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

 

Did you use it on Many Faces?  How much benefit did you see there?

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 2:12 PM, David Fotland 
wrote:

Very impressive.  Does anyone know the relative hardware?  I think the 5 dan
Zen was running on 26 cores.

Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP?  It's an
excellent tool BTW.  Thank you for sharing it.

-David


> -Original Message-
> From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
> boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of "Ingo Althöfer"
> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM
> To: computer-go@dvandva.org
> Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
>
> Hello everybody,
>
> let us start the new year also in the mailing list.
> It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for
> its position as leading bot on KGS.
> Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom)
> has started a long playing session in KGS computer room,
> and has now established a stable 5-dan rating.
>
> See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at
> http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone
>
> and the list of games at
> http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone
<http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone&year=2011&month=12>
&year=2011&month=12
> and
> http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone
<http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone&year=2012&month=1>
&year=2012&month=1
>
> Ingo
> (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS
> before the European Go Congress in July 2012)
> --
> Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
> belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Rémi Coulom]

On 2 janv. 2012, at 20:12, David Fotland wrote:

> Very impressive.  Does anyone know the relative hardware?  I think the 5 dan
> Zen was running on 26 cores.

Thanks for the nice comments. I am running on 24 cores (Dell PowerEdge R905 
Rack Server, 4 x Six-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 8439 SE, 2.8GHz). But it is 
only one machine. So my 24 cores are probably much more efficient than the 26 
cores of Zen.

> 
> Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP?  It's an
> excellent tool BTW.  Thank you for sharing it.

The big improvement I got recently came from tuning one parameter that I had 
forgotten to tune for a few years. I tuned it with CLOP, but I would have 
probably got the same result if I had tuned it manually (about +100 Elo in self 
play, both on 9x9 and 19x19). CLOP simply makes tuning a lot more convenient. I 
really enjoy using it very much. I am glad if people like it too.

I also fixed a silly bug that was worth 30 Elo in self-play.

Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current experimental 
version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone 2011. That's less than one 
stone difference on KGS. But I am sure both Zen and Crazy Stone will reach 6d 
in 2012.

Rémi

> 
> -David
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
>> boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of "Ingo Althöfer"
>> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM
>> To: computer-go@dvandva.org
>> Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
>> 
>> Hello everybody,
>> 
>> let us start the new year also in the mailing list.
>> It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for
>> its position as leading bot on KGS.
>> Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom)
>> has started a long playing session in KGS computer room,
>> and has now established a stable 5-dan rating.
>> 
>> See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at
>> http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone
>> 
>> and the list of games at
>> http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone&year=2011&month=12
>> and
>> http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone&year=2012&month=1
>> 
>> Ingo
>> (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS
>> before the European Go Congress in July 2012)
>> --
>> Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
>> belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
>> ___
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[David Fotland]

A 24 core SMP PC should be a little more efficient/stronger than the 26 core
cluster that Zen uses.

 

David

 

From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org
[mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of terry mcintyre
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:43 AM
To: computer-go@dvandva.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

 

This is the info on KGS user crazystone:

"running on a 24-core PC." 

 

 I've watched a few games. It impresses me, and more to the point, impresses
the high-dan players. 

Terry McIntyre 

Unix/Linux Systems Administration
Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice.

  _  

From: David Fotland 
To: computer-go@dvandva.org 
Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

Very impressive.  Does anyone know the relative hardware?  I think the 5 dan
Zen was running on 26 cores.

Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP?  It's an
excellent tool BTW.  Thank you for sharing it.

-David

> -Original Message-
> From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
> boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of "Ingo Althöfer"
> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM
> To: computer-go@dvandva.org
> Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
> 
> Hello everybody,
> 
> let us start the new year also in the mailing list.
> It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for
> its position as leading bot on KGS.
> Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom)
> has started a long playing session in KGS computer room,
> and has now established a stable 5-dan rating.
> 
> See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at
> http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone
> 
> and the list of games at
> http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone&year=2011&month=12
> and
> http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone&year=2012&month=1
> 
> Ingo
> (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS
> before the European Go Congress in July 2012)
> --
> Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
> belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Ingo Althöfer]

Sorry, I made a mistake and
have to correct myself:

> ... He [Robert Jasiek] also has experience
> playing against the current CrazyStone on KGS, his KGS account is rsun.

"rsun" is NOT Robert Jasiek.
Robert's account on KGS is "sum".

Thanks to Thomas Wolf for pointing this out.

Ingo.



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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Don Dailey]

That's pretty awesome to maintain a 5 dan performance!

Don


On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>wrote:

> Hello Don,
>
> > What time control was used for these games or did it vary?
>
> In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with
> 9 byoyomi phases.
>
> Ingo.
>
>
> --
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hello Don,

> What time control was used for these games or did it vary?

In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with
9 byoyomi phases.

Ingo.


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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Don Dailey]

What time control was used for these games or did it vary?

Don

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 2:42 PM, terry mcintyre wrote:

> This is the info on KGS user crazystone:
> "running on a 24-core PC."
>
>  I've watched a few games. It impresses me, and more to the point,
> impresses the high-dan players.
>
> Terry McIntyre 
>
> Unix/Linux Systems Administration
> Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice.
>
>   --
> *From:* David Fotland 
> *To:* computer-go@dvandva.org
> *Sent:* Monday, January 2, 2012 2:12 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
>
> Very impressive.  Does anyone know the relative hardware?  I think the 5
> dan
> Zen was running on 26 cores.
>
> Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP?  It's an
> excellent tool BTW.  Thank you for sharing it.
>
> -David
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
> > boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of "Ingo Althöfer"
> > Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM
> > To: computer-go@dvandva.org
> > Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
> >
> > Hello everybody,
> >
> > let us start the new year also in the mailing list.
> > It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for
> > its position as leading bot on KGS.
> > Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom)
> > has started a long playing session in KGS computer room,
> > and has now established a stable 5-dan rating.
> >
> > See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at
> > http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone
> >
> > and the list of games at
> > http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone&year=2011&month=12
> > and
> > http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone&year=2012&month=1
> >
> > Ingo
> > (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS
> > before the European Go Congress in July 2012)
> > --
> > Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
> > belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
> > ___
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Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

[Ingo Althöfer]

Some side information:
Robert is a strong human go player, see
http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Player_Card.php?&key=10213203
and also the author of books on go theory. He also has experience
playing against the current CrazyStone on KGS, his KGS account is rsun.

I would like to see him playing against CrazyStone and/or Zen
at slow time controls. For the programmers, he as an opponent
might also give valuable feedback.

Ingo.


 Original-Nachricht 
> Datum: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 21:00:22 +0100
> Von: Robert Jasiek 
> An: computer-go@dvandva.org
> Betreff: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

> On 02.01.2012 20:42, terry mcintyre wrote:
>  > impresses the high-dan players.
> 
> We know that PCs are fast at fast calculations. Let them play slow games 
> so that human 5d get their chance to think. I would play a couple of 
> games if a) thinking times are reasonable and b) I do not have to lose 
> the fight of clicking the fastest and having the fastest internet 
> connection to KGS for the program's game requests.
> 
> -- 
> robert jasiek
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