Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Passing on of Tenancies
I have been reading with interest all the correspondence related to leases. The vagaries of how they worked has long confused me. In the early 19th century my own ancestors , the McCays, were very lowly tenant farmers in Rabstown, Urney on land which I believe belonged to the church. There were two McCays noted in the Tithe applotment books. Archibald who held a lease as an individual and Thomas, who shared one with a group of others. The details are limited but as there were two neighbouring farms tenanted by McCays in the Griffiths valuation I assume they were inherited from Archibald and Thomas. I also assume these two were related, possibly brothers. Archibald doesn’t seem to have had sons to pass on his farm to but Thomas had 2 sons William, the eldest, and Charles. The Griffiths valuation shows them with an individual farm each in Rabstown and by studying various maps I have concluded that William had Archibald’s farm while Charles had one based on where the shared lease of his father had been. Charles was unmarried and on his death, his farm passed to William’s son, another William, according to the Valuation Revision books. By 1890 William Senior felt the need to make a will, leaving all to his son but also providing well for his unmarried daughter. He died a few years later leaving his son as the tenant of two farms in Rabstown. I have no idea what part the landlord had in any of this. William Junior then proceeded to buy the tenancy of a much bigger and better farm in neighbouring Peacockbank in 1895. The purchase of this farm confused me a little as the the asking price of £1000 seemed huge when it didn’t include the freehold. Once the sale was completed William’s solicitor informed the Abercorn estate that they had a new tenant and that seems to have been accepted. About 10 years later he purchased the freehold under LAP. About the same time he acquired another farm tenancy in Rabstown, from the widow of his cousin Alexander Wauchob, and installed his nephew, John Patrick, the eldest son of his deceased sister. There is a reference to this in the index of the registry of deeds and I assume he must have purchased this. William married late in life and was childless and his will is a mine of information. By this time he owned the freehold of one farm and the leases of three others but interestingly he doesn’t differentiate between them. They are all his farms, but their history is revealed in that he refers to the three farms in Rabstown as ‘ my uncle’s farm’, ‘my father’s farm’ and ‘Wauchob’s farm’. Although he provided for his wife, the farms were to be kept in the family. Wauchob’s farm went to his nephew John Patrick, and there were many small bequests to other members of his family from the female lines – McCays, Wauchobs and Patricks , everything else passed to his unmarried sister Mary Ann and then to her son John McCay – the only family member retaining that name, which I think is significant. My purpose here I suppose is to stress the importance of the family in all these transactions. In the early days they seemed to be very informal assumptions that things continued as before with the families themselves sorting out the details of what was to happen. With the introduction of wills in the family this legalised the process but everything seems to have been decided already. I would welcome any comments particularly about the assumptions and conclusions I have come to. Regards Marion Shephard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList Sent: 30 June 2020 04:45 To: elwyn soutter Cc: Peter McKittrick; CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Passing on of Tenancies Thanks, re LAP, was familiar with the term in fee. According to Wikipedia there were early land purchase schemes involving loans but none as attractive as those under the Wyndham Act. Peter > On 30 Jun 2020, at 12:43 pm, elwyn soutter > wrote: > > Peter, > > LAP stands for “Land Act Purchase”. As far as I am aware, it was introduced > with the 1903 Land Act, often known as Wyndham’s Land Act, so you shouldn’t > see it in use before that year. It provided the final piece of legislation > to make land ownership more reasonable in Ireland, especially for farmers. It > provided Government backed mortgages to finance the purchase of the land and > freehold, and there was also some sort of mechanism for bridging the gap > where a land owner and farmer couldn’t agree the price. > > In the Valuation Revision books these purchases are marked with the letters > “L.A.P.” in purple ink, plus the relevant year is normally written in the > right hand column. The landlord’s name is deleted and the words “In fee” > inserted. In fee means you own the freehold. > > Quoting from the Encyclopedia Britannica: > > “At the close of the century, the Conservatives initiated a policy designed > to “kill Home Rule by kindness” by
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
‘Bob was a Protestant Horse’ is a book which you will find on Amazon. You can buy the kindle version and download it. JSTOR is where I found the journal articles related to the book ‘The population of Ireland 1750-1845’ by KH Connell. Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Linda Nimer Sent: 24 June 2020 19:59 To: CoTyroneIreland. com Mailing List; Marion Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs Thanks for the clarification. I did find JSTOR while looking for the other one, but did not see Bob was a Protestant Horse in their Irish section. Any suggestions on how to locate it on the JSTOR website? Linda On Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 01:03:43 AM PDT, Marion wrote: Sorry Linda, That should have been JSTOR ! Its a website where you can access a variety of academic journals. I’ ve only just discovered it and they are allowing free accounts during COVID pandemic. Apologies for typing error; it was late when I sent the email. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Linda Nimer via CoTyroneList Sent: 24 June 2020 05:07 To: Marion via CoTyroneList Cc: Linda Nimer Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs What is YSTOR? Linda On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 03:11:42 PM PDT, Marion via CoTyroneList wrote: Elwyn Thanks again for all your explanations and insight which have helped me understand this topic more clearly. The journals I mentioned cover similar topics to the book you described and I have been able to access them through YSTOR which is free at the moment. I have already downloaded ‘Bob was a Protestant horse’ onto my kindle and am looking forward to reading it. I always expect an interesting response to my queries from you and am never disappointed. Ron Thanks to you too for your perspective on illegitimacy and the way people tend to be supportive in these circumstances. Its strange that no one in my family knew that my grandfather was illegitimate till I started delving into the past! I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to this discussion and really appreciate the forum the mailing list provides. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Sorry Linda, That should have been JSTOR ! Its a website where you can access a variety of academic journals. I’ ve only just discovered it and they are allowing free accounts during COVID pandemic. Apologies for typing error; it was late when I sent the email. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Linda Nimer via CoTyroneList Sent: 24 June 2020 05:07 To: Marion via CoTyroneList Cc: Linda Nimer Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs What is YSTOR? Linda On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 03:11:42 PM PDT, Marion via CoTyroneList wrote: Elwyn Thanks again for all your explanations and insight which have helped me understand this topic more clearly. The journals I mentioned cover similar topics to the book you described and I have been able to access them through YSTOR which is free at the moment. I have already downloaded ‘Bob was a Protestant horse’ onto my kindle and am looking forward to reading it. I always expect an interesting response to my queries from you and am never disappointed. Ron Thanks to you too for your perspective on illegitimacy and the way people tend to be supportive in these circumstances. Its strange that no one in my family knew that my grandfather was illegitimate till I started delving into the past! I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to this discussion and really appreciate the forum the mailing list provides. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Elwyn Thanks again for all your explanations and insight which have helped me understand this topic more clearly. The journals I mentioned cover similar topics to the book you described and I have been able to access them through YSTOR which is free at the moment. I have already downloaded ‘Bob was a Protestant horse’ onto my kindle and am looking forward to reading it. I always expect an interesting response to my queries from you and am never disappointed. Ron Thanks to you too for your perspective on illegitimacy and the way people tend to be supportive in these circumstances. Its strange that no one in my family knew that my grandfather was illegitimate till I started delving into the past! I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to this discussion and really appreciate the forum the mailing list provides. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
at 16, and without parental consent. (In England and Ireland parental consent was required till you were 21). Some folk may have heard of people running off to Gretna Green to get married. Gretna Green is on the border between England & Scotland and so was handy if you were English and in a hurry to get married, but Portpatrick was the equivalent if coming from Ireland. Here’s a link to marriages in Portpatrick involving couples from Ireland, going back to 1721. Most of these are presumably elopements. I can’t think of any other reason for marrying there: http://www.ulsterancestry.com/free/ShowFreePage-39.html#gsc.tab=0 The Ulster-Scots are an interesting group. I did a course at Queens University, Belfast a year or two back on migration into Ireland. The lecturer drew a contrast between various invaders such as the Vikings and the Ulster – Scots. In spite of being present for 300 years or so, the Vikings left very little impact on Ireland. There’s a few place names such as Strangford (strong fjord) and the odd surname which may point to Norse origins, but by and large there’s not much sign of them. Part of the reason was that they only settled around the coast, and not in sufficient numbers to dominate the population. But another factor was that they didn’t bring any women with them. If they needed women then the answer was usually a bit of rape and pillage amongst the locals. However the significance of this was that if they settled and remained in Ireland, as some undoubtedly did, then they quickly integrated into the local community and their Norse identity was soon lost. In contrast, the Scots came with equal numbers of men and women. They tended to marry each other and kept their separate identity. They often looked down on the native Irish and on Catholicism which was the denomination that most had fought to get rid of in Scotland in the 1500s, so that limited the tendency for inter-marriage, though for all that there were plenty of mixed marriages. But overall the Ulster – Scots, a high percentage of whom were Presbyterian tended to marry each other. (There were Scots Catholics and Episcopalians who settled in Ireland too, but the majority were Presbyterian). This tendency can be found in Ireland even today and in part accounts for the separate identity that many in Ulster still feel, which is why they often identify as Ulster- Scots, rather than Irish. You ask about illegitimacy and the churches attitude. There was plenty of illegitimacy around. One study I read suggested that about 1% of births were illegitimate in the mid 1800s. There were local exceptions especially if there was a workhouse in the area, and workhouse births distorted the figures: http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/a-sexual-revolution-in-the-west-of-ireland/ Before the Poor Law was introduced c 1840, the churches were responsible for supporting the poor in their congregations. Consequently they took a great interest in illegitimate children because they might have to support them financially. Presbyterians usually called a woman with an illegitimate child up before the Kirk Session and asked her who the father was. If she revealed that, he too was summoned and interviewed. He was put under pressure to support the child, and to marry the woman if she was willing. They had to admit their sins in front of the congregation (ante-nuptial fornication), and were denied Communion for a while. Sometimes they had to sit separately from the rest of the congregation. Records of these examinations can be found in the Kirk Session minutes where they survive. (Usually in PRONI). Other denominations also pursued errant fathers though – in my opinion - not always with the same determination as Presbyterians. You can spot some illegitimate children in the 1901 & 1911 censuses where they have been “adopted” by the grandparents. They appear as the apparent extra son or daughter of a woman in her 60s, so the family were evidently often doing their best to reduce the stigma. In my own family I have an ancestor who had 2 illegitimate children over a 3 year period around 1825. The Kirk Session minutes show that the alleged father readily agreed he was the father of the first and paid up, but he said he was not the father of the second and refused to pay, so the church paid for that child for a while. Eventually 1 child died. Then the mother was arrested for burglary and theft. (She stole a bundle of clothes because she was living rough and destitute). She was taken into custody and eventually transported. Her remaining son was looked after by her married sister. So the family sort of rallied round in some cases, I would say. Elwyn On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 at 13:11, Marion via CoTyroneList wrote: Hello all, I wonder if anyone can tell me or suggest where I might find out about marriage customs in nineteenth century Ireland, particularly
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Thanks Bobby. I found the article and read it with interest. I didn’t realise marriages took place at home and it certainly answered some of my questions. I will have to try and locate the journals you mentioned to find out more. Thanks for all your help. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Robert Forrest Sent: 21 June 2020 13:23 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: Marion Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs Marion - you have touched upon a theme where there might be scholarly articles in some of the more obscure publications of Irish History (I am thinking particularly of Irish and Economic & Social History Journal published from 1974). By way of introduction I wrote a short piece on marriage pre-civil registration reflecting on marriages in an early period based on a case study of the Coleraine and Roe Valley (Limavady) districts. http://www.ulsterheritage.com/history/marriage_in_ireland.htm It doesn't cover all of your questions but hope you find it interesting. Regards Bobby Forrest From: CoTyroneList on behalf of Marion via CoTyroneList Sent: 21 June 2020 12:10 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: Marion Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs Hello all, I wonder if anyone can tell me or suggest where I might find out about marriage customs in nineteenth century Ireland, particularly amongst Ulster Scots. Were they based on social, cultural or religious factors ? Did the bride and groom have much input ? Were protestant and Roman Catholic approaches very different? Also what were the attitudes to illegitimacy by family members and society at large? How were the mothers and children treated ? Thank you in advance for your help ! Regards Marion Shephard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
[CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Hello all, I wonder if anyone can tell me or suggest where I might find out about marriage customs in nineteenth century Ireland, particularly amongst Ulster Scots. Were they based on social, cultural or religious factors ? Did the bride and groom have much input ? Were protestant and Roman Catholic approaches very different? Also what were the attitudes to illegitimacy by family members and society at large? How were the mothers and children treated ? Thank you in advance for your help ! Regards Marion Shephard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Bishopric of Derry Estate records
Hello Tunji Unfortunately I ran out of time on my last visit to Ireland and didn’t make it to Proni. I am still interested in any information about the tenants of the diocese of Derry in the parish of Urney if anyone should come across anything. Sorry I can’t be of more help. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Tunji Lees via CoTyroneList Sent: 04 February 2020 11:48 To: cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com Cc: Tunji Lees Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Bishopric of Derry Estate records Dear Marion and Len, Did any of you had the chance to look at any of the Derry Bishopric Estate records at PRONI in the end? I would be interested to know what kind of information these might contain and whether they would be useful in trying to trace Lee/Lees ancestors who lived on Church lands. Kind regards, Tunji Lees -- Hello Marion, I cannot recall sending you the Bishopric of Derry Estate details, but I guess I did. The data would have been extracted from William Roulston’s essential research tool RESEARCHING ULSTER ANCESTORS 1600-1800 (2edn edn.,2018) Ulster Historical Foundation, Belfast. Pre 1800 rentals and leases and call numbers are: Derry Bishopric Estate, all parishes in the diocese of Derry Rentals 1617, 1688, 1708, 1719 - D/683/31, 275, 278, 287 Leases of the see of Derry c. 1696 - D/683/240 Lease rents of the see of Derry 1718 D683/286 Rental of lands belonging to the bishopric to be let in Clonleigh parish 1790 - D2798/3/59 Hope this works for you, Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Marion via CoTyroneList Sent: Friday, 5 April 2019 11:29 PM To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: Marion Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Bishopric of Derry Estate records Hello all, but Len Swindley in particular, Last November Len answered a query I made about these records and was very helpful in giving me the information that they were at Proni and the details of what they included. I have been planning my next trip to Proni and searching the e catalogue for reference numbers for these records but I have been unsuccessful. Can you, Len, or anyone else, tell me what I am doing wrong and how I can find this information. Regards Marion Shephard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/pipermail/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com/attachments/20190406/c6f974f9/attachment.html> ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
[CoTyroneMailingList] Bishopric of Derry Estate records
Hello all, but Len Swindley in particular, Last November Len answered a query I made about these records and was very helpful in giving me the information that they were at Proni and the details of what they included. I have been planning my next trip to Proni and searching the e catalogue for reference numbers for these records but I have been unsuccessful. Can you, Len, or anyone else, tell me what I am doing wrong and how I can find this information. Regards Marion Shephard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Irish Bally---ony
Beverley If you have a kindle you can download many of William Carleton’s books for free. Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: EVELYN CARDWELL via CoTyroneList Sent: 14 January 2019 21:59 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List; CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: EVELYN CARDWELL Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Irish Bally---ony William Carleton was a local Tyrone writer whose work dates from the early to mid 19th century. When I read his book "Traits and Stories of the Irish Peasantry" I found phrases I hadn't heard from childhood. It was reprinted about 20-30 years ago in softback, so hopefully you may be able to track down a copy somewhere. He wrote other books as well, but these stories are relatively short and easily read. There is also a Carleton Society in Tyrone, who are interested in all things connected with Carleton and run a very successful summer school each year. Lyn Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 at 19:46, Beverley Ballantine via CoTyroneList wrote: ___ CoTyroneList mailing list CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/ (_internal_name)s ___ CoTyroneList mailing list CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/ (_internal_name)s
[CoTyroneMailingList] DNA
What do you mean make them Y67?I have done my Armstrong DNA on Family tree DNA. I am kit 566581. I am in the Old Scottish Group. I am also in the Armstrong Group. The closest matches I have is number 6 - 10 which could be 10 or more generations away. And few have a family tree posted. And every time I want to do something, it costs me money. I did the full test to start. I then did my Armstrong DNA with Ancestry and then downloaded it to gedmatch. In gedmatch I can see how many CM's we have in common and work out possible relationships from that.I find Ancestry DNA affordable and easy to get a download from.My Armstrong gedmatch number is for Robert Armstrong A199189.My other Armstrong gedmatch number is Ed Mawson A192469.I appreciate the discussion, I learn something from them.I find I love to do the family research, always loved history. But the DNA stuff, does not stick in my brain, I hated biology etc in school. Now I need it.Margaret Marion ___ CoTyroneList mailing list CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/ (_internal_name)s
[CoTyroneMailingList] getting a researcher
I want to thank everyone for their comments on my request to get a researcher. I think I will spend my money on something better. I think this calls for a trip to Ireland with some Ancestry DNA kits. I don't know that much about DNA research. But I do know how I can export from Ancestry very easily and put it on gedmatch. From there I can figure out our relationship to a certain extent. And I will still keep looking for that hint.Sometimes I wonder if my relatives really did steal a British army pay chest and come to Canada. When I look at my Armstrong's, the information keeps changing. I wonder if they changed their last name coming to Canada.I don't think so, but the Canadian evidence keeps changing, on one census they say they came in 1862, then the next 1865 and yet there they are in the 1861 census.Sorry to gripe. Now that I have read your comments I am more confident in my research as well. Thank you.Margaret Marion___ CoTyroneList mailing list CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/ (_internal_name)s
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Diocese of Londonderry
Thanks Len That is exactly what I needed to know. I am planning my next visit to PRONI and listing what I want to look at, so will add this to the list. I hope to visit some time next year but time is always limited and a plan is essential. Thanks again for all your help Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Len Swindley Sent: 17 November 2018 03:22 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: Marion Subject: RE: [CoTyroneMailingList] Diocese of Londonderry Hello Marion, The Bishopric of Derry Estate records have been archived in the Public Record of Northern Ireland (PRONI), Belfast where they may be consulted. They are not available on the web. Pre1800 records include rentals 1617, 1688, 1708, & 1719; Lease rents 1718 and numerous petitions from the tenants of the lands of the bishopric 1768-1803; Rental of lands belonging to the bishopric to be let in Clonleigh parish, Co. Donegal 1790. Hoping this is useful? Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia Volunteer transcriber and submitter of files to http://www.cotyroneireland.com/ Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: CoTyroneList on behalf of Marion via CoTyroneList Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2018 2:06:15 AM To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: Marion Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Diocese of Londonderry Does anyone know if it is possible to access the historical records relating to the estate of the Diocese of Londonderry? Regards Marion Shephard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList mailing list CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/ (_internal_name)s
[CoTyroneMailingList] Diocese of Londonderry
Does anyone know if it is possible to access the historical records relating to the estate of the Diocese of Londonderry? Regards Marion Shephard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList mailing list CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/ (_internal_name)s
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Farming life in Co Tyrone
Hello All I just wanted to say a huge thankyou to everyone who responded to my original question about farming , particularly to Ron, Len and Elwyn, who have provided so much information. I have been trying to record a narrative record of my McCay family in Tyrone. I have a pretty good chronological history dating from the beginning of the 19th century till the mid 20th but wanted to add some background information to bring life to their lives and am grateful for all your help in doing this. Regards Marion Shephard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList mailing list CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/ (_internal_name)s
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Life in Tyrone in the 19th century
Hello Elwyn Thanks for sharing such a fascinating document with lots of insights into life at that time. Regards Marion Shepharrd Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList Sent: 19 October 2018 16:31 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: elwyn soutter Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Life in Tyrone in the 19th century >From a recent post about farming in Tyrone, I sense there is an interest in >day to day life in Tyrone in the 1800s. The following document might therefore >interest members of this forum. I found it in PRONI and thought it gave a good >description of life then. PRONI Reference : T2279/2 MEMORIES OF DUNGANNON, FLAX, THE BIG WIND, TRAVEL, EMIGRATION, POTATO BLIGHT, FAMINE Notes and reminiscences dictated to me during the winter of 1904-5 by my father James Brown Donaghmore, [Co. Tyrone] [signed] Nora Brown. 'I was born on 25 July 1823 in the old house in Donaghmore, now a part of the soap works. My father was David Brown, son of John Brown who married Miss McClelland and lived in Mullaghmore. Miss McClelland's brother married my grandfather's sister and also lived in Mullaghmore. My father had one brother John who lived in Irish Street and carried on a bakery. He married Miss Jane McDowell. My mother was Betty, daughter of Henry King of Middletown Co Monaghan.' 'When first married, my parents lived in a small house in Mullaghmore, since pulled down, and afterwards in a house in Donaghmore opposite the chapel. Then they moved to the house where I was born. They had ten children. Mary married Richard Tener; Henry married Jane Carr; Ann and Thomas who died in childhood. Margaret married Henry Oliver; Eliza married Robert Smith; Jane married Thomas Lilburn; Amelia married Joseph Acheson; Isabella married John Beatty and myself who married Jane Ellen Nicholson.' 'The first thing I can remember is a servant of ours Mary Mullen going to America on St. Patrick's Day 1828. She and the rest of her party drove to Belfast in a cart to sail thence to America. They took with them provisions for the journey, chiefly oat cakes, as then was the custom. The outward voyage averaged 30 days, but occasionally was 6 or 7 weeks and on these occasions provisions ran short and the poor people were in danger of starvation.' 'Another early recollection is being taken into a darkened bedroom to see a little play fellow, who was ill of smallpox, there being little knowledge of the risk of infection then.' 'My first teacher was Mr Richard Robinson whose school was in the space now planted with trees behind the cross. It was then the only school in the village. Later I had lessons at home from Mr Stuart who taught the R[oman] C[atholic] school in Dungannon.' 'After leaving the village school I was sent to my sister Mary Tener in Perry Street where her husband had a grocer's shop and I attended a school kept by two teachers from the South of Ireland, Messrs Murphy and Riordan. Afterwards I lived with my sister Margaret in Church Street where her husband carried on a saddlery trade and I went to Mr Burch's school on the Castle Hill. I remained here until I was nearly 13 when in the summer of 1836 I went to the Rev. John Bleckley's school in Monaghan. Here I stayed until I was sent for to come to the death bed of my father on 17 November 1837. He died on 22 November and I did not return to school, but went to business with my brother in Donaghmore.' 'Previous to the year 1816 my father was engaged in the linen trade giving out home spun yarn and getting it woven in hand looms in the cottages. At that time a good deal of the linen trade was transacted in Dublin, not Belfast, probably in consequence of better banking facilities. My father used to go to Dublin to sell his linen, in company of other merchants. They rode on horse back, in parties, for protection from highwaymen, the journey to Dublin occupying three days. In later years when the linen trade in Belfast had increased, buyers for the bleachers came to Dungannon every Thursday and took their places on the "standings" on the east side of the square where the farmers brought the webs, woven by their families and servants. The "standings" were benches with boards in front of them, on which the webs were thrown for examination. When the price was arranged the buyer put his mark on it and the seller took it to Mr Robert Tener in Perry Street who measured it. He got a few pence for each web measured, in consideration for which he supplied the buyers with dinner.' 'Travellers then wishing to go to Belfast, used to leave Dungannon at 4 am on a long car which took them by Moy and Loughgall to Portadown. Here they joined John Byer's coach, running between Armagh and Belfast, reaching the latter place about 1 pm.' 'During the war with Napoleon prices for agricultural produce were high, but the peace of 1815 was followed by a time of great depression, partly caused by
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Gt gt grandfathers farm
ftsmanship and hand labour and many of them still work today however once you had improved the land this way the tax or rent would jump considerably. In some ways times have not changed... Hope that is of some help cheers Ron McCoy On 2018-10-18 12:22 PM, Marion via CoTyroneList wrote: Hello All, Are there any farmers out there? This is a description of the area where my Great gt Grandfather, Thomas McCay, farmed in the Townland Valuation . He shared about 39 Cunningham acres with four other farmers in the first area and had about 2 acres in the second . The land is obviously pretty poor and I wondered if anyone could suggest how this land would have been used at that time. From my reading I guess he grew some oats and potatoes and used the pasture for some kind of livestock but I would be interested in any comments from people with more knowledge than me. The Townland Valuation 1828-40 This was carried out by the Ordnance Survey and provided a very detailed description of the land in each townland. On June 20th 1833 it was the turn of Rabstown to undergo this process. The townland was divided into 5 areas, noted on an accompanying map, and each described and valued. The area in which Thomas shared land with a group of farmers and in which Archibald's farm was situated was probably area 3 and the following description is given: '3 A recd (reclaimed) mountain arable and heathy pasture, shallow, white gravely sand subsoil' The value or rate for the land in this area is given as 3s per statute acre, later increased to 3/6. This was by far the least valuable land in Rabstown, other areas being rated at between 9/6 and 14s in the initial valuation. Thomas' land in Glentown was obviously much better. It was in area 7 and surveyed on June 24th. The description is as follows: '7 A good free deep arable 1/3 deep 2/3 a moory arable of moderate depth and part exposed Also reclaimed bog wet and heathy pasture’ This was valued initially at 11/6 per statute acre, later being raised to 12/6, while the reclaimed bog and heathy pasture was valued at 3/6. Many Thanks Marion Shephard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList mailing list CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com ___ CoTyroneList mailing list CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/ (_internal_name)s
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] McCay & McCoy - Ron McCoy & Marion Shephard -
Hello Janet My tree is on Ancestry and is just called McCay family tree. It is public so you should be able to look if you are a member. Rabstown, where my family lived, is in the parish of Urney but not far from Ardstraw and Newtonstewart. Let me know if I can help at all. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Janet Fairless via CoTyroneList Sent: 19 October 2018 02:31 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: Janet Fairless Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] McCay & McCoy - Ron McCoy & Marion Shephard - Hello All, I just wanted to thank Marion Shephard for the excellent question and Ron McCoy for the interesting and informative response. These sorts of exchanges benefit us all. Marion, Ron, I have an interest in the McCays from around the Newtownstewart area in the Parish of Ardstraw, Co.Tyrone. Is there anywhere that either of you have your early to mid 19th Century family trees available for perusal? I have found a distant DNA connection between my Wilson’s and the McCay’s from that region, and would love to be able to join the dots. With gratitude for your questions and answers. Janet Fairless (nee Wilson) Brisbane Australia (Researching my Wilson’s from townland of Cavandarragh/Whitehouse from the early 1800’s) ___ CoTyroneList mailing list CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/ (_internal_name)s ___ CoTyroneList mailing list CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/ (_internal_name)s
[CoTyroneMailingList] Gt gt grandfathers farm
Hello All, Are there any farmers out there? This is a description of the area where my Great gt Grandfather, Thomas McCay, farmed in the Townland Valuation . He shared about 39 Cunningham acres with four other farmers in the first area and had about 2 acres in the second . The land is obviously pretty poor and I wondered if anyone could suggest how this land would have been used at that time. From my reading I guess he grew some oats and potatoes and used the pasture for some kind of livestock but I would be interested in any comments from people with more knowledge than me. The Townland Valuation 1828-40 This was carried out by the Ordnance Survey and provided a very detailed description of the land in each townland. On June 20th 1833 it was the turn of Rabstown to undergo this process. The townland was divided into 5 areas, noted on an accompanying map, and each described and valued. The area in which Thomas shared land with a group of farmers and in which Archibald's farm was situated was probably area 3 and the following description is given: '3 A recd (reclaimed) mountain arable and heathy pasture, shallow, white gravely sand subsoil' The value or rate for the land in this area is given as 3s per statute acre, later increased to 3/6. This was by far the least valuable land in Rabstown, other areas being rated at between 9/6 and 14s in the initial valuation. Thomas' land in Glentown was obviously much better. It was in area 7 and surveyed on June 24th. The description is as follows: '7 A good free deep arable 1/3 deep 2/3 a moory arable of moderate depth and part exposed Also reclaimed bog wet and heathy pasture’ This was valued initially at 11/6 per statute acre, later being raised to 12/6, while the reclaimed bog and heathy pasture was valued at 3/6. Many Thanks Marion Shephard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList mailing list CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content - Indextothe Tithe Applotment Book for Donaghmore Parish, Co. Donegal
Thanks Len. Had a look at the map – I hadn’t noticed before that there were two Mullanboys next to each other, obviously one in each parish. By the time of the Griffiths valuation the nearest Wauchobs are close by in the townlands of Cavanaweery and Foyfin, both in Urney I think. There are also some in Trusk, Donaghmore . It’s difficult to pinpoint who’s who! Thanks for the information about the national archives - will know to look under Cork in future! Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Len Swindley Sent: 21 July 2018 15:09 To: Marion; CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Subject: RE: [CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content - Indextothe Tithe Applotment Book for Donaghmore Parish, Co. Donegal Hello Marion, Thanks for your enquiry. Have referred to Ask About Ireland (Griffiths Places) http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/ and can confirm that Mullanboy is indeed located in both Urney and Donaghmore parishes in Co. Donegal. There were thirteen households recorded Griffiths Valuation 1858 in the Urney townland (no Wauchobs) and twelve households in Donaghmore (again no Wauchobs). You may also wish to refer to the maps on this website. The National Archives of Ireland website is most confusing: Donaghmore parish has been assigned to Co. Cork and contains a jumble of data, hence my attempts to index the large parish in Co. Donegal. I have written to the NAI on three occasions alerting them to a problem and am still awaiting rectification. Hoping this assists you and regards, Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Marion Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2018 11:25:06 PM To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List; gordon.wilkin...@ozemail.com.au Cc: Len Swindley; Gordon Wilkinson Subject: RE: [CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content - Indexto the Tithe Applotment Book for Donaghmore Parish, Co. Donegal Hello Len Many thanks for all the work you have put in to completing these lists, I can’t imagine how long it took. I have been looking eagerly in the lists for my Wauchob/p ancestors, who I think came from the Castlefin area and was pleased to find some possibilities. In the past I had located some of the family in Mullenboy (just one of the spellings) , just south of Castlefin, which was recorded as being in the part of the parish of Urney, that is in Donegal and I found the TAB for this townland on the National Archives website. I was a bit confused to find Mullanboy/ Mullinbee/Mullenbwee in your lists of townlands in Donaghmore , two are mentioned in the second TAB list. I am trying to decide whether there are two different places with similar names, both in Donaghmore, or one in Donaghmore and one in Urney. I was further confused when I looked on the National Archives website and there was no mention of a parish in Donegal called Donaghmore. I would be grateful for any explanations you might be able to give me. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Len Swindley via CoTyroneList Sent: 21 July 2018 13:46 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List; gordon.wilkin...@ozemail.com.au Cc: Len Swindley; Gordon Wilkinson Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content - Indexto the Tithe Applotment Book for Donaghmore Parish, Co. Donegal Am delighted that the tables worked folks and am submitting further data concerning the townland of Ballybun, Donaghmore parish, Co. Donegal; this time including those householders recorded in Griffiths Valuation, 1858, DOUBLING the recorded households of 1826. Trust you find this exercise interesting; this was not an unusual occurrence. . Regards, Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList mailing list CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content - Indexto the Tithe Applotment Book for Donaghmore Parish, Co. Donegal
Hello Len Many thanks for all the work you have put in to completing these lists, I can’t imagine how long it took. I have been looking eagerly in the lists for my Wauchob/p ancestors, who I think came from the Castlefin area and was pleased to find some possibilities. In the past I had located some of the family in Mullenboy (just one of the spellings) , just south of Castlefin, which was recorded as being in the part of the parish of Urney, that is in Donegal and I found the TAB for this townland on the National Archives website. I was a bit confused to find Mullanboy/ Mullinbee/Mullenbwee in your lists of townlands in Donaghmore , two are mentioned in the second TAB list. I am trying to decide whether there are two different places with similar names, both in Donaghmore, or one in Donaghmore and one in Urney. I was further confused when I looked on the National Archives website and there was no mention of a parish in Donegal called Donaghmore. I would be grateful for any explanations you might be able to give me. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Len Swindley via CoTyroneList Sent: 21 July 2018 13:46 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List; gordon.wilkin...@ozemail.com.au Cc: Len Swindley; Gordon Wilkinson Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] CoTyroneIreland.com - New Content - Indexto the Tithe Applotment Book for Donaghmore Parish, Co. Donegal Am delighted that the tables worked folks and am submitting further data concerning the townland of Ballybun, Donaghmore parish, Co. Donegal; this time including those householders recorded in Griffiths Valuation, 1858, DOUBLING the recorded households of 1826. Trust you find this exercise interesting; this was not an unusual occurrence. . Regards, Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList mailing list CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com http://mail.cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com
