Re: [css-d] proper way to kill text decoration on link?

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

John wrote:


I have this for my basic links:

a {
color: #111311;
border-bottom: 1px dotted #000;
margin: 0 0 0 0;
padding-bottom: 1px;
text-decoration: none;
}
a:hover, a:focus, a:active {
color: #8c;
}


and I want to keep it, but I also need to have things like images which have 
links to NOT have the dotted line underneath them. I have tried this to achieve 
that:


where preview is the name of the small images with links class.  Am I close 
to right on this? Right track? Right world?


I don't understand.


.preview a:link, a:hover, a:focus, a:active
{
text-decoration: none
}


would have the effect of killing the effect of

 a:link, a:hover, a:focus, a:active
{
text-decoration: whatever
}

but your code does not have that.  It has instead


a   {
color: #111311;
border-bottom: 1px dotted #000;
margin: 0 0 0 0;
padding-bottom: 1px;
text-decoration: none
}


and you are taking no steps to kill the effect of the first
four lines that /do/ do something.  So what is your thinking ?
What effect do you think that text-decoration: none might
have on border-bottom: 1px dotted 000, for example ?

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Text Size Smaller Than CSS Indicates?

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

PL wrote:

My client has a number of property pages. I have just added flash slide shows 
to the banner area. I did not change anything in the CSS to do this and the CSS 
remains the same for all property pages as before.

However, on one page, the text appears to have changed to a smaller font than 
called for in the CSS when I uploaded the slideshow to the server:
font-family: Trebuchet MS, sans-serif;
font-size: 14px;

I have compared all the property pages and the rest are fine. The original page 
was a test page and all I did to put it up live was remove the _test from the 
file name and point it to the .xml slide page.

http://www.broadstonere.com/properties/piano_works.php


There are nine HTML errors, of which some at least may be relevant.
However, in validating the page, I see the following :

Error Line 84, Column 913: end tag for element a which is not open

…The Piano Works/a in a larger map/a/smallbr /small   h2 
style=clea…

If you are using small as well as CSS, I would not be
surprised if all bets were off (unless, of course, you
have a CSS rule for small, which you appear not to have).

Philip Taylor
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[css-d] Fit to width

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

I am looking for a technique that will allow me
to generate a DIV, the width of which is the
width of its widest non-shrinkable immediate child
element; the DIV will always be floated.

For example, consider the following :

DIV style=float: ...
IMG src=... alt=... longdesc=http://...;
PNow is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the 
party/P
DIV

The image has a natural width, which for most
images will be wider than the width of (say)
party in the caption that follows.  But the following
paragraph is shrinkable, in the sense that it has no
intrinsic width and could be as narrow as the longest
word therein (i.e., party).  So I would like the text
in the caption paragraph to be forced to wrap to the width
of the image.  I do not want to use tables for reasons of
accessibility.

So far, my experiments and research have drawn a blank;
even Jukka's otherwise most helpful page [1] does not
seem to address this desideratum.  Can anyone advise,
please ?

Philip Taylor

[1] http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www/captions.html

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Re: [css-d] My website doesn't display in IE

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Karl Bedingfield wrote:


Now it may be that I have spent too many hours at the laptop but for
some reason my new Tumblr theme design just does not show in IE. All I
get is the background and no content. My site displays just fine in
Chrome and Firefox.

Can anyone see what might be causing this? I changed doctype but no
change so I guess it is a CSS issue.

Here is my link: http://mickfest.com/


Errors found while checking this document as XHTML 1.0 Transitional!
Result: 62 Errors, 18 warning(s)

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] My website doesn't display in IE

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Karl Bedingfield wrote:


Well I cleaned up the validation a little. As far as I can see the
other code is auto-generated and beyond my control.

I still think there is a CSS issue I am missing. Just don't know what.


Well, that's quite possible :


W3C CSS Validator results for 
http://static.tumblr.com/kzkayxt/8smlsxsbv/css.css (CSS level 2.1)
Sorry! We found the following errors (76)


Philip Taylor
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[css-d] [Off-topic] Pointer to analogous list sought (event handling)

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Could some kind soul suggest to which list questions
concerning event handling are best directed (in the
context of web pages, image maps, and onmouseover/out) ?

Many thanks in advance :
Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] I must be a moron, How to reply to messages

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Felix Miata wrote:

 Linux distros are free to package extensions or not as they see fit. 
Apparently David's doesn't and yours does, or David's using neither Linux nor an 
extension that provides it.

Is there any evidence to suggest that Reply to list
functionality is offered only via an extension and
not via the core code ?

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] how to get rid of space between background images that are repeating vertically

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

URL or URI ?

Angela French wrote:

I have a background image that repeats vertically.  The weird thing is though, 
that it is rendering with a small space between each one. Can someone tell me 
what property I might try to get rid of that? Or why it is doing that?

Angela French
Internet Specialist
State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
360-704-4316
afre...@sbctc.edu
http://www.checkoutacollege.com/

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Re: [css-d] Query on P:First-letter

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:

 Have you tested this in anything beside a Gecko browser ?

To be honest, no.  I develop using solely Seamonkey, and
only when the site renders successfully in that do I look
to see how it might render in other browsers.

 See https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159403

Thank you, that is an interesting and useful lead.  Since
I /need/ it to work in Seamonkey, I shall have to look for
a work-around until that bug gets fixed.  My thanks to all
others who also commented on this query.  David L: I will
look at your suggested replacement shortly, but earlier
experiments suggested that text-transform : uppercase
produces markedly inferior results from an æsthetic
perspective, which is why I developed the code that I posted.

Philip Taylor


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Re: [css-d] Query on P:First-letter

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:


Since you already have markup like

Mspan class=Keyphraseany of us/span

it would seem natural to put the initial letter in a classed span, making it 
trivial to refer to it in CSS. Assuming, of course, that you can affect the 
markup.


Yes, I can indeed; I was just trying to avoid overt markup
if it could be avoided.


I don't see how text-transform : uppercase on something else would be relevant to the 
issue of styling the first letter. And it seems to me that David suggested just 
_removing_ some stylesheets that you currently have (including text-transform : 
uppercase). I think red color is not particularly stylish. What you seem to be trying to 
achieve is classical styling where the first few words of a paragraph appear 
in small capitals (except uppercase letters as normal capitals) - and I doubt whether 
it's a good idea to add color to that.


Yes, /mea culpa/ : I have already sent a correction.


The main problem with such classical styling in HTML documents is that true 
small-caps are rarely supported. Although you can set font-variant: small-caps in CSS, 
you get (in almost all cases)just reduced-size uppercase letters, _not_ small-caps 
designer typographically to fit into the text. Using explicit font size reduction 
together with bolding is a nice try to work around such problems, but not without 
problems. The initial letters now have somewhat too thin lines, and if you try to fix 
that by bolding, they get too thick.


Yes, it was as close as I could get to classical styling;
certainly CSS's generation of caps-and-small-caps was just
an æsthetic disaster.


I don't quite see the point of
letter-spacing: 0.075em;
for the initial letter. If you look at e.g. the words The, don't you think 
that the distance needs to be _reduced_ rather than increased? If you fine-tune spacing, 
then I think you would need to fine-tune it individually by character pairs, effectively 
doing things comparable to what a typographer does when deciding on kerning pairs.


It was added empirically.  Before I added that correction, it
looked decidedly worse (to my eyes).  However, that was in an
earlier version of Seamonkey (2.0.14, probably) and I do agree
that the kerning in Tsmall capshe/ is now markedly sub-optimal.

And yes, I'd love to be able to add kern-pairs in CSS, but I don't
think CSS has evolved that far yet :-)

Philip Taylor
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[css-d] Query on P:First-letter

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Could anyone explain why the leading M of the following paragraph :

p style=margin-top: 2.3em!-- #BeginLibraryItem /Library/Ugandan infant in a laundry basket.lbi --img id=Infant-Uganda-001 
src=Resources/Images/Photographs/Web/Scaled/240/Infant-Uganda.001.jpg longdesc=../Resources/Images/Photographs/Web/Longdesc/Infant-Uganda-001.html alt=Ugandan infant in a laundry 
basket width=320 height=240!-- #EndLibraryItem --Mspan class=Keyphraseany of us/span are lucky enough to take anaesthesia for granted. Surely a world 
without safe anaesthesia has long been confined to the history booksnbsp;?nbsp; Not in the developing world, where hospitals lack suitable equipment, medicines and trained staff./p

is not matched by this CSS rule :

DIV.Content P:first-letter {color: red; letter-spacing: 0.075em}

whereas the leading M of the following paragraph is ?

p style=margin-top: 2.3emMspan class=Keyphraseany of us/span are lucky 
enough to take anaesthesia for granted. Surely a world without safe anaesthesia has long been confined to the history 
booksnbsp;?nbsp; Not in the developing world, where hospitals lack suitable equipment, medicines and trained 
staff./p

The obvious difference is that an IMG element intervenes,
but should that really cause the M not to be classed as
the first /letter/ of the paragraph ?

Live URLs for those wishing to investigate further :

With intervening image : http://safe4all.org.uk/Index-images.html
(Valid HTML 4.01 Strict, valid CSS Level 3,
one error at CSS Level 2.1)

Without intervening image : http://safe4all.org.uk/Index.html
(Valid HTML 4.01 Strict, valid CSS Level 3,
one error at CSS Level 2.1)

Philip Taylor



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Re: [css-d] Drop Down Menu On Hover Testing Please - IE 7

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Elli Vizcaino wrote:
 Hello, 


 I am unable to test functional behavior cross browser because I have to rely 
 on browser shot services to do my testing. I would greatly appreciate it, if 
 a number of you would take a look at this site http://e7flux.com/dfd/ and 
 hover on the word About in the nav.  It has a drop down sub menu and should 
 look like this screen shot: http://e7flux.com/dfd/dfd-ss.png across all 
 browsers. 

For me, no (in Seamonkey 2.3.3); I see no word Sponsors
in the drop-down.  Otherwise very similar if not identical.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Drop Down Menu On Hover Testing Please - IE 7

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Elli Vizcaino wrote:

 Seamonkey? Umm that doesn't sound like a very popular browser. What 
 machine/OS do you have? 

Pentium 4-based PC running Windows/XP Professional; SP3.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Drop Down Menu On Hover Testing Please - IE 7

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Elli Vizcaino wrote:

   No one is giving me any insights into this sub menu hanging  issue I got 
 feedback on. Or has it magically corrected itself after I made the other 
 adjustments. Another look would be greatly appreciated :)

No comments on this, since I can't see it, but there is one inconsistency
that might be usefully addressed before you go live : you have
both Kenzi's kids and Kenzi's Kidz -- presumably at most one
of these can be intended.

Philip Taylor

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Re: [css-d] Mysterious Div

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Tom Livingston wrote:
 Link?

 Nancy Timper wrote:
 DUH.

 http://www.datecreekranch.com

 thanks


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Re: [css-d] Hidden HRs

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Tomasz Borek wrote:

 What actually puzzles me is why would that site creator have different
 classes (char1, char2, ...) for characters in each letter in Cowpoke's.
 Including the '.
 
 The only styling he uses is margin-right, like:
 
 h1 .char2 {  /* try also char5 and char8 */
 margin-right: -6px; /* the amount here differs */
 }
 
 I mean, wouldn't it be better to use some appropriate font?

Do you not feel that the rationale is adequately explained here ?


http://blog.typekit.com/2011/01/06/type-study-an-example-of-lettering-js/

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] CSS Organization

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

mem wrote:

 Let's suppose that by looking to those wireframes, I can say that all my h2 
 will have a padding-bottom of 10px.
 However, if later on, I create a rule telling that the ul will have a margin 
 top of 5px... (because almost all may have that attribute) if I place the h2 
 on top of this ul, instead of the desired 10px, we will end up with 15px... 
 and there, I ask: where/how should I subtract those extra 5 ?
 
 This is only an example, this is some sort of conflict that happen A LOT 
 while I'm creating the css.

Understood about this being only an example, but does
this one case, at least, not get made much simpler
by the concept of collapsing margins ?

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/box.html#collapsing-margins

Philip Taylor
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[css-d] Off-topic : was IE6 (was can style sheets be too long?)

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

bruce.som...@web.de wrote:

 My current employer - and the previous employer - use IE6 as their
 official corporate browser. The reason the current employer uses it?
 High end mission critical enterprise web apps that work only with IE6.
 Replacing the apps would cost millions of dollars or more, not worth it
 for the relatively-little gain of using IE7/8.
 
 Is that possible? That would be an extremely grave lapsus. ... apps that 
 work only with IE6! 
 Did the developers assume that IE6 would be available from now to eternity?

If, at the time of development, no more recent version
of IE than IE6 was available, then they may have had
little alternative, IMHO.

Philip Taylor
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[css-d] Off-topic : h1 replacement -- which one is recommended?

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Scott Hamm wrote:

 I've been looking all over websites -- a lot of good h1 replacement
 suggestions.  But which one is more practical, validated in all aspects i.e.
 bobby approved, html5, etc?

H1 is HTML, not CSS, but that said, why might anyone want to replace it ?

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] stretch one div vertically in three column layout

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

David Laakso wrote:

 For those among us who suffer from short-term-memory-loss and/or don't have 
 time to look it up:
 --what is your url?
 --what versions of IE do you need to hit?

I can confirm that http://adif.sk/testversion/index.html, viewed
in Internet Explorer V7 on Windows/XP, looks complete and utter
 when compared to the same page viewed in Seamonkey 2.3.1

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Hidden HRs

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Chetan Crasta wrote:

 Using Firebug, this is what I found:

 The two lines is actually a bottom border on the h1. The p element is
 relatively positioned to overlap the bottom part of the h1. A background
 color is set on the p to prevent the border from being seen over the
 letters.

Clever !  Clever coding, and even cleverer detective work.
I was still instigating when Chetan published the solution.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Seeking Selector Functioning Like a Backwards Adjacent Sibling Selector

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

 18.8.2011 8:40, Rick Gordon wrote:

 I'm just wondering how I might approach addressing a tag that appears just 
 before another tag, lick the p tag that would immediately precede an h1. 
 The adjacent sibling selector p  h1 would give me access to the attributes 
 of the h1, but what if I wanted to modify a property of the p in that 
 context?

 In CSS, you cannot, except in the trivial sense that you can manually add 
 class attributes to such tags and then use a class selector.
 Even in the CSS 3 Selectors draft there is no selector construct for such 
 purposes.
 Using JavaScript you could of course traverse the document tree and e.g. add 
 a suitable class property to elements by such criteria.

Would you not agree, Jucca, that there is another issue
here, and that is the definition of what constitutes
a tag that appears just before another tag.  Even the
example given :

 the p tag that would immediately precede an h1

doesn't really clarify the situation, since I cannot
think of any context in which a p tag might immediately
precede an h1.  I can think of examples (contrived)
that might place a /p just before an h1, but the
example given just doesn't tally with my vision of reality.

Would you also agree that Rick Gordon might do better
to forget about tags as such, and rather think in terms
of elements, and then re-formulate his question in
terms of the document tree rather than in terms of
a particular serialisation ?

Philip Taylor



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Re: [css-d] DIVs referring to each other, and absolute positioning

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Keith Purtell wrote:

 I've removed most of the ugly blankness of my splash page, but two
 technical problems remain.
...
 http://www.keithpurtell.com/kthings/

Keith, do you have any idea why the T is so badly
(over)kerned in CONTACT ?  It is very tight in
OTHER and AUTHORS, but just gets away with it
there because of the following H.  With a follow
A, it looks /really/ bad.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] DIVs referring to each other, and absolute positioning

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

For those wondering how Keith is intended to know
about what I am talking, there was a screenshot
attachment that has quietly been jettisoned by
the list server with no warning to replace it ...

What Part 1.2

(--000605080503080102090309
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline)

is intended to convey I have no idea -- it did not
come from this end.

Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote:
 
 
 Keith Purtell wrote:
 
 I've removed most of the ugly blankness of my splash page, but two
 technical problems remain.
 ...
 http://www.keithpurtell.com/kthings/
 
 Keith, do you have any idea why the T is so badly
 (over)kerned in CONTACT ?  It is very tight in
 OTHER and AUTHORS, but just gets away with it
 there because of the following H.  With a follow
 A, it looks /really/ bad.
 
 Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] parse error on *html

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Tom Livingston wrote:

 Though I'm rusty on *HTML hacks- havent used one in years -
 the validator is a tool, not law. If you know that is correct
 and need it for a fix, then it's fine.

With respect, the validator is more likely to know if something
is correct than a mere human; I would be inclined to rephrase
your observation along the lines of :

 the validator is a tool, not law. If you need it for a fix,
 then go ahead and use it, but be aware that the validator
 told you it was an error for a very good reason.

Philip Taylor

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Re: [css-d] [OT] Why no HTML

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

FWIW, I think that Ghodmode has every right to ask
why HTML e-mails are prohibited on this list, even
though I personally rejoice that they are.  I also
appreciate the non-confrontational way in which he
has presented his views and responded to the view of
others.  However.  In my e-mail client (Seamonkey),
there would appear to be an option to mark potential
recipients as able (or not able) to receive HTML e-mails;
if I (inadvertently) send attempt to send an HTML e-mail
to someone not marked as able to receive HTML e-mails,
my client asks what I want to do : send as ASCII, send
as HTML or send as both.  I suspect it also asks if
I want to remember that decision.  Ghodmode, does your
e-mail client not offer similar possibilities, and if
so, can you simply not mark this list as Cannot
accept HTML e-mails and Send as ASCII while leaving
all other e-mail recipients unchanged ?

Even more off-topic : how is one meant to mentally
render Ghodmode ?  Is it Godmode, or G Hodmode
or G H Odmode or what ?

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Logo in a div

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Brian M. Curran wrote:

 Why does www.seobook.com put his logo in a div? It seems like its' only
 purpose is to hold the code class=logo. Wouldn't it have been easier to
 put the class=logo in the img tag like how I did on my site:
 www.draftingservices.com ?

Well, clearly I don't /know/ why he did it that way,
but looking at the code it is not only an IMG that
is within the DIV -- there is a surrounding A
as well.  Which means that he can style (e.g.)

.logo A

and

.logo IMG

which would not be possible if the class were associated
solely with the IMG.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Recreating the Facebook layout

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Felix Miata wrote:


I don't remember being able to notice any differences between Lucida 
Grande and Lucida Sans Unicode on any machine I had both installed on, 
though I've not checked in a while. OTOH, you probably won't find 
Grande on any system that doesn't have Safari installed unless you put 
it there yourself. Note, I never run Windows except with Cleartype 
enabled.


In my experience, exactly the opposite.  Based on well-meant advice, I
installed Lucida Grande for Windows/XP; results -- unreadable web
pages.  Lucida Sans Unicode I use all the time, with zero problems.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Separating DIVs vertically

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Barney Carroll wrote:

Keith,

By default. block-level elements occupy the full available width, thus any
following block-level elements can only appear directly below.
   


I am unconvinced of this explanation.  At


http://web-consultants.org.uk/sites/tests/Block-level-elements/DIVs.html


you will see two DIVs, each of which is only 33% of the full available 
width,
yet they stack vertically, not horizontally.  I would argue that this 
behaviour
has nothing to do with their width, and is entirely a result of their 
being block-level

elements.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Separating DIVs vertically

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Alan Gresley wrote:

It is really do with block flow direction.

http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-writing-modes/#text-flow

  | The block flow direction is the direction in which
  | block-level boxes stack and the direction in which
  | line boxes stack within a block container. The
  | ‘writing-mode’ property determines the block flow
  | direction.


What you are observing is what happens in a Latin-based writing mode.


So, what would you expect to happen if the writing mode were top-to-bottom ?
Would you then expect the DIVs to stack side by side ?  I would not, but of
course I am always open to being surprised !

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] @font-face and IE browsers....

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

karla porter wrote:

correct me if I'm wrong - but Google web fonts don't require the
@font-face code. I've never had to insert that. Only the following
code needs to be placed at the beginning of the/headelement...
link href='http://fonts.googleapis.com/css?family=WHATEVER FONT YOU
USE' rel='stylesheet' type='text/css'

~Karla Porter
ArcherCreative
   

Well, if I try that for (say) Droid Sans, this is the result :


@font-face {
   font-family: 'Droid Sans';
   font-style: normal;
   font-weight: normal;
   src: local('Droid Sans'), local('DroidSans'), 
url('http://themes.googleusercontent.com/font?kit=s-BiyweUPV0v-yRb-cjciC3USBnSvpkopQaUR-2r7iU')
 format('truetype');
}
   

so even though I may not have explicitly entered @font-face,
Google has kindly done so for me ...

Philip Taylor
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[css-d] OT : The Readable Web

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Barney Carroll wrote:

The Readable Web blog is almost my single point of reference for the
latest on font-face.

If it's supposed to be The Readable Web, why does it eschew both
accepted conventions [1] for indicating the start of a new paragraph,
and rely solely on the last line of the previous paragraph ending short ?

Philip Taylor

[1] Either additional vertical white space, or indentation, but almost 
never both.

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Re: [css-d] OT : The Readable Web

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Discussion taken off-list.
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Re: [css-d] Z-index demo

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:


On May 6, 2011, at 4:13 AM, Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote:


My mouse was over the lower central image, which
resolutely refused to come to the foreground until
I moved my mouse away from all three images.  When
I move from the rightmost to the central image,
the left image comes to the foreground.


That is expected…


Well, I think that depends on from where one derives one's
expectations.  I derived mine from Gabriele's prose :


When you hover an image, its z-index changes so that the current image will be 
always displayed on the top of the other.


whereas you seem to be deriving yours from the code :


#gallery img.center:hover {
z-index: 0;
}


Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Z-index demo

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Does not work for me, Gabriele : Seamonkey 2.0.14,
Win/XP;SP3.


https://picasaweb.google.com/Chaa006/ScreenCaptures?authkey=Gv1sRgCPLV3Kvwm6zA5QE#5603311437556736210

My mouse was over the lower central image, which
resolutely refused to come to the foreground until
I moved my mouse away from all three images.  When
I move from the rightmost to the central image,
the left image comes to the foreground.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Using CSS to control width of page.

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

John D wrote:


You will only succeed in wasting your time because it is not useful anymore.  
Delphi will be more useful if you want to learn something new.


Responded to off-list.
Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Using CSS to control width of page.

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Lesley Lutomski wrote:

 You've missed the semi-colon after width:
 800px - I don't know if that might be causing problems in whichever
 browser you're using.

It's not missing, it is omitted; as in Algol-68, semi-colon
is a separator in CSS, not a terminator.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Reflection effect

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Ingo Chao wrote:


Some hate the effect [1], therefore, it is decoration.


Some hate coz, gonna and 'fess up, but they are
still (sadly) only too often a part of the content :-(

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] CSS Problems in IE 9?

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

David Laakso wrote:


Long-shot: write and upload an .htaccess file


Isn't .htaccess Apache-specific ?  From the original
message :

 On 4/13/11 7:20 PM, Richard Wendrock Forum wrote:

 http://www.PineMillRanch.com/Index.asp

I would expect the use of IIS.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Side-Header Image Problem in IE 6, 7 - Solved

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Andrew C. Johnston wrote:


Thanks Philip once again, pulling out thebase href=[(site_name)]/base
solved the problem, in combination with your earlier advice about the comment
code.

Really appreciate your assistance, I could never have figured it out by myself.


You're very welcome, Andrew.  Before considering reinstating

base href=[(site_name)]/base

I would recommend checking on two things :

1) Valid values for the href attribute of a BASE element;
2) The correct syntax for BASE elements in XHTML 1.0 Transitional.

** Phil.
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Re: [css-d] Side-Header Image Problem in IE 6, 7

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Andrew C. Johnston wrote:


When the site was converted, I hacked out one piece of code, which served to
allow the header image to effectively span the entire width of the browser,
improving the look tremendously in my view, but causing errors in ie:

!--
body {
 margin-top: 0px;
 background-color: #EAEAEA;
 background-image: url(http://www.rayxi.com/assets/images/bg2.gif);
 background-repeat: repeat-x;
}
--

The site now validates, and I went back to this issue recently, it turns out
this css comes first, right before the javascript starts, and before the css
stylesheet is called.  It doesn't work at all if put in the stylesheet, for me
at least.


Is it /possible/ that, when trying to transfer it to the stylesheet,
you left in the HTML comments markers :

!--

and

--

If so, these should be omitted when inserting the remainder
in a valid CSS file.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Side-Header Image Problem in IE 6, 7

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Andrew C. Johnston wrote:


New link here: http://www.rayxi.com/index.php?id=197

But, it still seems to have the same problem is ie.


Are these, in combination, not likely to be the source of the problem ?


base href=Rayxi Consulting/base
link href=assets/templates/andrew/css/cncss.css rel=stylesheet 
type=text/css/


which together give you (approximately speaking)

 link href=/Rayxi Consulting/assets/templates/andrew/css/cncss.css rel=stylesheet 
type=text/css/

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Experiment: CSS post it note

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

What has happened to some of the text on the
yellow Post-it (R), Gabriele ?

http://web-consultants.org.uk/sites/tests/css/Fullscreen capture 
07-Apr-2011 183056.jpg

Philip Taylor

Gabriele Romanato wrote:


I've often asked myself: 'ok, we can rotate boxes with CSS3, but what
this is good for?.
Answer: visual effects. Like this:

http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/2011/04/css-post-it-note.html

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Re: [css-d] Centering Horizonal Navigation with Drop Downs

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

John D wrote:

Have you seen this article before:

http://matthewjamestaylor.com/blog/centered-dropdown-menus

Let us know if this is what you were looking for.


The drop-down for the fourth element is very strangely positioned :


http://web-consultants.org.uk/sites/tests/css/Fullscreen%20capture%2007-Apr-2011%20213653.jpg

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Experiment: CSS post it note

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


Beware of trying to fit text into a fixed-size container:

http://t.cfaj.ca/postit.jpg

For an example that works with any font size, see
http://twd2.cfaj.ca/. (I have just started to redo my site, so
there not much there besides the first page.)


I don't know how you've produced that rotated panel,
Chris, but it doesn't render well here :


http://web-consultants.org.uk/sites/tests/css/Fullscreen%20capture%2007-Apr-2011%20214031.jpg

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Erratum

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Alan Gresley wrote:


With this statement, the inability of browser vendors to comply with
W3C specifications. I can assure that the total reverse is true.



The greatest change regarding CSS is the extensive work in re-writing
various parts of the CSS2.1 specs to match current browser behavior.


If the total reverse is true, and browser vendors were not unable
to comply with W3C specifications, why did it need extensive work
in re-writing various parts of the CSS2.1 specs to match current
browser behaviour ?  It should have required none at all, since
all modern browsers would already have been fully compliant.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Rule of Thumb For Naming Classes/IDs?

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Alan Gresley wrote:


The answer is no. Isn't the css2.1 spec clear enough ?
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#characters



This is not correct. You can begin ID and class selectors with numbers.
The only thing is that they must be encoded properly with characters
escapes (the above spec gives details).

http://css-class.com/test/css/selectors/identifiers-character-encoding2.htm


The specification says they cannot start with a digit; Alan says
they can start with numbers; the question is therefore are there
numbers that are not digits, and Alan is arguing yes, if the
number is encoded using a character escape (e.g., \31 to represent
the digit/number 1).

It will take me some time to decide by looking at the formal
parts of the specification whether Alan is correct in his assertion;
perhaps others more familiar with the formal syntax can save
time by answering and/or pointing us at the rule(s) involved.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Rule of Thumb For Naming Classes/IDs?

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote:

 It will take me some time to decide by looking at the formal
 parts of the specification whether Alan is correct in his assertion;
 perhaps others more familiar with the formal syntax can save
 time by answering and/or pointing us at the rule(s) involved.

It is not necessary.  On the assumption that the informative
notes do not contradict the normative grammar, Alan's
assertion is confirmed :

 Note: ... \32 is allowed at the start of
 a class name, even though 2 is not.

Philip Taylor


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Re: [css-d] Rule of Thumb For Naming Classes/IDs?

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Markus Ernst wrote:


I could imagine a hypothetic Web application that generates class names
from any other information, which may start with a digit. Thus class
names may not even be known at coding time. In that case, escaping all
digits might be a valuable alternative.


Far simpler would be to add an explicit prefix
selected from the nmstart set ([_a-z]|{nonascii}|{escape}).

Yes, by all means escape what follows, but don't
blindly start an identifier with some arbitrary
escape sequence.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Esoteric IE6 filter-related issues

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Barney Carroll wrote:


I realise these are highly esoteric bugs that aren't part of the CSS
canon, and not being able to show the broken stuff (NDAs, sorry)
doesn't help


Since, almost by definition, you don't need the real content
during your development phase, can you not replace all copy
by /Lorem ipsum/ and then share it with the rest of us ?

Philip Taylor
--
Not sent from my i-Pad, i-Phone, Blackberry, Blueberry, or any
such similar poseurs' toy, none of which would I be seen dead
with even if they came free with every packet of cornflakes.
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Re: [css-d] Rule of Thumb For Naming Classes/IDs?

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Barney Carroll wrote:

Hiya Elli,

On 30 March 2011 15:49, Elli Vizcainoelli...@yahoo.com  wrote:

I forget what the rules are for naming classes and IDs


This question was answered very succinctly on stackoverflow:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/448981/what-characters-are-valid-in-css-class-names#answer-449000

Hope this helps,


Very succinctly ?  By the end of reading it, I was more confused
than when I started !  It even starts with a glaring error :


a name must start with an underscore (_), a dash (-), or a letter(a–z), 
followed immediately 1 by a letter or underscore


which would rule out element class=A1 (leading
letter NOT followed by letter or underscore).

However, pointing validator.w3.org at

http://web-consultants.org.uk/sites/tests/A1.css

which contains

.A1 {visibility : inherit}

the validator says All is well; I would trust the validator over
Stackoverflow any day !

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Rule of Thumb For Naming Classes/IDs?

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Barney Carroll wrote:


The line between philosophy  politics blurs! If it works, I'll do it.
If it doesn't I won't. The question is ideological and we could debate
it for yonks. Ultimately, I believe posters come here for practical
advice. If they were looking for the spec, a bot could do a better job
than the lot of us.


OK, one last attempt and then I'll shut up.  What is practical advice ?
Is it (for example) This will work in all browsers currently known to
man, but violates one or more W3C specifications ?  If so, then how
can you (as the person offering the advice) have any confidence that
it will also work in next year's browser, or next week's, or even
tomorrow's ?  If, on the other hand, the practical advice were
This will work in all browsers currently known to man, and is
fully compliant with all relevant W3C specifications, then would
not you (as the author) and I (as the consumer) have justifiable
confidence that it will continue to work in future browsers for
some considerable time to come ?

Over and out.
** Phil.
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Re: [css-d] Erratum

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

HallMarc Websites wrote:


Vive la difference!

First, I must disagree in the usage of inability; I don't believe that is
the reason they produce the product in the manner they do. I believe it is,
more likely, due to their vision and how they want the product to interpret
what we write. For that I am eternally grateful because it provides more
than just a product that is quirky or different. It causes us to think.
It's the differences that help us learn and innovate. The differences incite
discussion and debates. It is why we use this D-list (Discussion List). So,
as they say. Vive la difference!

Marc Hall
HallMarc Websites


Oh Marc, you must have so much spare time on your hands
if you really want to spend time here working out how
to make something render satisfactorily in all major
browsers.  Would you /really/ not be happier if all
you had to do was to consult the relevant W3C specifications
and then /know/ how your document would render in all
browsers ?  I know I would.  This list exists because
it needs to, but the world would be a much better (and
more productive) place if it did not (need to exist,
that is).

** Phil.
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Re: [css-d] new IE display question

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Doesn't just happen in IE.  In Seamonkey at my
preferred settings, only the first seven fit.
Ctrl + and Ctrl - wreak further havoc.

Philip Taylor


Rory Bernstein wrote:

http://motherloadshow.com/

I'm back with another question about this same page. The main nav bar: I am 
just using a single BG image to create the look of the blue/green/red tabs, and 
the links are a list of items.

But in IE, the text gets spaced out further, and the text goes out to the right, past the 
end of the red tab. Is there something wrong with my css that can be fixed to make them 
stay put?

Rory

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Re: [css-d] ie display problem

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

IE7 : Problems with this web page might prevent it from
being displayed properly or functioning properly.

Line 64, Char 9, Error : Object required.
Line 9, Char 3894, Error : 'null' is null or not an object.

Corkboard, and corresponding verso blank : displaced vertically
downwards by their full height.

Philip Taylor

Rory Bernstein wrote:

On this page:
http://motherloadshow.com/

There is a div called id=bulletin_board that should display an image of 
papers pinned to a cork board, and there is text on the cork board. But I just found out 
that  nothing is show up there at all in ie 6 and 7 (just a dark blue background). Does 
anyone know why that would be?

Thanks, Rory
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Re: [css-d] Ignore white-space between inline and/or inline-block elements in WebKit

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Jarek Foksa wrote:


Is there a CSS vendor extension in WebKit that would allow me to
explicitely specify whether whitespace between elements should be
preserved or not?


This may seem an odd question, but why would you want
a solution that will work in only one family of browsers ?

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] letter spacing difference (FF vs. Safari)

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Charles Miller wrote:

 I did : I was just too shocked to comment, given that you had
 suggested it was overkerned.  Remember, please, Goudy's aphorism.

 Might that be: First do no harm.:-)

 I'll look earlier in the thread for the actual aphorism.


Look no further : A man who would letter-space lower-case
text would probably steal sheep.

 Are you game to post or send another screen shot later today after I remove 
the letter-spacing?

 It would be useful to see if what looks scrunched on my Mac looks good on 
your system.

Manana : going out to dine tonight, to celebrate/commemorate/commiserate
over 64th birthday ...
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Re: [css-d] forcing the same height for neighbouring divs

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Gergely Buday wrote:

Hi there,

I would like to have the same height of background for two neighbouring divs at

http://www.math.bme.hu/~gergoe/

For the upper part I was able to set explicit height but for the lower
this is not possible as the text can be variable size. On irc I got

http://colinaarts.com/articles/float-containment

but that did not help, it was beyond my knowledge. When answering
please keep in mind that I'm a newbie to css.


Suppose (and this is pure hypothesis) that the background were
not a part of your DIVs, but was rather than background to a
containing DIV that held both; if that background consisted of
a 1px high bi-colour line, width equal to the total width of your
two inner DIVs, and with the colour-change synch'd to the widths
of the DIVs, and allowed to replicate vertically but not horizontally,
might this not solve your problem ?

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


If the code is not valid, you cannot predict how the page will be
displayed. Fixing it may solve your problem.


Quite correct.


Invalid HTML may *be* the issue. You cannot know until you have
fixed it.


Also correct.


The number of error shown may be misleading. Often, fixing one will
also correct several subsequent errors. Start with the first error,
then check it again. Repeat as necessary.


And correct again.  I can find no fault with Chris's logic,
and feel that his first reply was perfectly reasonable in
the circumstances.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] browser check

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Matthew P. Johnson wrote:


Oh man what browser/os is this? It does not look right at all.


Any browser that supports minimum font size, I would imagine.
Philip Taylor

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Re: [css-d] Positioning a float

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Bobby Jack wrote:


I'm working on a layout that requires text to wrap around a positioned image. 
In my case, I need an image in the bottom-right of a box, with text inside the 
box. So I need the in-flow, wrapping properties of a float combined with the 
positioning properties of an absolutely-positioned element.

Is anyone aware of a way of achieving that?


I wish there were.  Over a year ago I asked about positioning
an image at the end of a stretch of text, so that the text
would wrap around it and the last line of the text would
align with the bottom of the image (the image itself should
float right).  Although there were several replies, none
actually solved the problem as posed. This seems pretty
close to your requirement, so I will watch with interest
to see if anyone can today identify a real solution.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Drop-down navigation without javascript

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

David Laakso wrote:


I think TJK's drop-down may meet your requirement...
Script-free modern browsers / keyboard-friendly
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/keyboard_friendly_dropdown_menu/default.asp


Bearing in mind that the title of the thread
is ... /without javascript/, I am somewhat
concerned that the TJK dropdown does not meet
this criterion : its description includes the
statement It uses non-obtrusive Javascript
There is no use of inline event handlers, so
it would seem that JavaScript /is/ involved.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] CSS validators

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Isn't that :

More options / Profile / CSS level 3 ?

Philip Taylor

Nancy Seeger wrote:

Hi All,

Maybe I'm being premature here but I really enjoy using some of the CSS3 
techniques, of course making sure things degrade gracefully. Mostly using RGBA 
with a backup hex, shadow boxes, border radius, font face and others that are 
rather low impact and fairly popular.

I'm not sure where to look up info on this, but would love to use the Validator 
for CSS for CSS3. Right now all those lovely CSS3 things come back as errors. I 
think 2012 is the closing of new submissions, does that mean we will be waiting 
until then for a validator?

I miss having a means to test for everything. Did I overlook an available 
resource?

Many thanks,
Nancy

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[css-d] Fwd: Re: Vendor-specific extensions: warnings, not errors

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

This is possibly relevant to Nancy's more recent query :


Philip and David,

If it were a snake... fantastic, I didn't know that had been added.

So in checking this out - what limits does it have? Are vendor prefixes 
supported like Webkit etc?

Thanks,
Nancy


Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Fwd: Re: Vendor-specific extensions: warnings, not errors

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Sorry, attached message was lost in transit.  Repeated below.

Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote:

This is possibly relevant to Nancy's more recent query :


Philip and David,

If it were a snake... fantastic, I didn't know that had been added.

So in checking this out - what limits does it have? Are vendor
prefixes supported like Webkit etc?

Thanks,
Nancy


On Sun, 16 Jan 2011, Paul Irish wrote:

 Cyrille sent us a patch that was integrated. The result is available on
 the dev validator at http://qa-dev.w3.org:8001/css-validator/

 Hmm. I just gave this a shot in direct input:

.test { -moz-border-radius: 10px; }

 Changed the profile to CSS3.. but it returns 1 error Property
 -moz-border-radius doesn't exist.
 That's unexpected, right?

You have a setting called Vendor extension by setting it to 'Warning it will 
validate (I just checked).
Property -moz-border-radius is an unknown vendor extension

--
Baroula que barouleras, au tiéu toujou t'entourneras.

~~Yves


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Re: [css-d] br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; } in Webkit

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Ingo Chao wrote:


HTML5:Rendering:Punctuation and decorations
says
   br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; }

But this doesn't seem to work in Safari and Chrome:
http://www.satzansatz.de/w3/break.html

Who is wrong?


Neither ?  HTML 5 was, the last time I looked, simply
work in progress; there is no reason at all to adopt
it (unless you want to be one of the early adopters)
nor to expect any browser to support anything contained
therein.  Unless/until HTML 5 becomes a formal W3C
specification, I would strongly recommend sticking with
HTML 4.01 Strict.

Philip Taylor
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[css-d] HTML5 and CSS3

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Barney Carroll wrote:

Philip,

there is no reason at all to adopt it [HTML5]

Stop being so cynical.


Cynical, Barney ?  No, just realistic.


What about these awesome badges/t-shirts?
http://www.w3.org/html/logo/


No comment needed.

? And the fact that CSS3 is now part of HTML5?

What does part of mean in the context of two provisional
specifications, each addressing a very different domain,
and each being tackled by a different working group ?

Philip Taylor


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Re: [css-d] HTML5 and CSS3

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Barney Carroll wrote:

[long snip]


So while I sympathise with your reticence as to the shallow-minded,
naive, obscurantist hype surrounding 'HTML5', the HTML5 spec has given
me all sorts of wonderful stuff I'm not about to dismiss…


Fine, all understood, end of thread-digression :-)
** Phil.
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Re: [css-d] HTML5 and CSS3

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Alan Gresley wrote:


I guess this HTML5 movement will just sit well with the current movement
of poor coding practices. I guess I show some of the cynicism of Philip
(Ret.). :-)


Welcome aboard, Alan :-)
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Re: [css-d] Check of family tree layout

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Overshoots visible at intersection of up and right
lines in Seamonkey V2.0.11 @ 1152 x 864 dpi; screen-
shot available on request.

Philip Taylor

Alan Gresley wrote:

Hello,

After quite a few years with working with this family tree layout, I
believe I have accidentally added the correct CSS by floating and
clearing the correct elements. It was very challenging.

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Re: [css-d] [test]: CSS and the HTML5 video element

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Gabriele Romanato wrote:


It took a little bit to find a good converter from FLV to OGV, but
finally I did it!
The video is 27 mb in size, so you have to be a little bit patient :-)
Results are encouraging, especially for future CSS3 enhancements:


Seamonkey 2.0.11 under Win/XP PRO;SP3

Partially rotated rounded-cornered square containing the
word Ogg and a | button that has no perceivable effect.

As regards the possible delay while 27Mb delivers itself,
would it not be possible to use a streaming protocol, as in (say)

src=rtsp://example.org/streaming/video.ogv/

rather than

src=video.ogv

as written ?

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Ulrike Eikermann wrote:


Here is another Firefox Addon (Font Finder), which lets you click on
elements and tells you the font being rendered. Also it allows you
disable font families, which is useful when testing font stacks.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4415/


What happens if font substition happens /within the element/.
Ulrike : for example, if I write

span style=font-family: ASCIIabcd天頂の囲碁1234/span

and the font ASCII has only the 256 glyphs of the standard ASCII
character set, the browser will be forced to use substitution for
the Japanese characters, yet these do not form an element in their
own right.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

 And even if you wrap them inside an inner span element, Font Finder
 reports ASCII as being in use for the inner element, even though the
 element contains no character representable in the font.

Argh : a potentially useful tool, perhaps, but by no means a perfect one.
Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] [Test]: Positioning an object element

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Gabriele Romanato wrote:

Hi.

A couple of days ago a user posted here a message about object and
positioning. I've created a test page and a brief description that I
think it may be helpful for future use cases:

http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/2011/01/css-positioning-object-element.html



As you can see here, everything works just fine.


Well, not /absolutely/ fine.  When the linked demonstration is first
rendered in SeaMonkey 2.0.11, at about the position where the | button
will appear, /something/ followed by the unit px appears briefly
on-screen.  Any idea why ?

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] [Test]: Positioning an object element

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Gabriele Romanato wrote:


Don't get me wrong but ... What is the percentage of use of Seamonkey? ;-)
Philip, as a rule of thumb, you should always test in major league
browsers, like IE, Firefox, Opera, Safari and Chrome.


Of course, it /could/ be something to with the following,
and nothing to do with my choice of browser at all :


Validation Output: 5 Errors

   1. Error Line 44, Column 37: Element object is missing one or more of the 
following attributes: data, type.

  object width=480 height=385param name=movie 
value=http://www.yout…

   2. Error Line 44, Column 128: Stray end tag param.

  …nFl0nlHaWa4?fs=1amp;hl=en_US/paramparam name=allowFullScreen 
value=tr…

   3. Error Line 44, Column 179: Stray end tag param.

  …allowFullScreen value=true/paramparam name=allowscriptaccess 
value=…

   4. Error Line 44, Column 234: Stray end tag param.

  …n value=true/paramparam name=allowscriptaccess 
value=always/param



   5. Error Line 45, Column 192: Stray end tag embed.

  …wscriptaccess=always allowfullscreen=true width=480 
height=385/embed


** Phil.
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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Rory Bernstein wrote:


When I have a series of fonts being called in a font-family rule, how do I know 
which one is the one being chosen?


You don't, unless JavaScript can tell you (see below).


On this page:
http://mcgivney.ehclients.com/locations/

The font should be the Titillium for the whole page, but of course it gets 
complicated when there are browsers that cannot show this font and it falls 
back to the next font in the stack, which is Tahoma, then Arial.

How do I know which one the browser is giving me?


Unless JavaScript can disclose the answer, I fear that you can't.


Are there any places on the above URL where it is NOT showing Titillium?


In some browser, under some operating system, when the moon is
in the ascendant and Jupiter aligns with Mars, almost certainly.
In my browser, under Win/XP;SP3, I still don't know, since
I don't know what Titillium looks like and I don't know if
I'd be able to visually differentiate between it and
a substitute.  I'll be very happy to send you a screenshot
(or a PDF) if you think that might help, but my honest
suggestion is stop worrying.  CSS is about suggestions,
not rules.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] form/ul layout weird in IE

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Rich M wrote:

Hi,

I've revamped some forms in my application, but the display is
unexpected in IE8 / Windows 7 for me. I assume it's equally weird on
other OS and probably IE versions.



Would that be :

https://www.moremagicpoints.com/ ?

If so, Seamonkey doesn't like its certificate, so I'm afraid
I can't look at it to see if I can help.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Helping css-d members to get their best from CSS

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Gabriele Romanato wrote:

Hi all.
After my last post and all the responses that came after that, I first
decided to unsubscribe from css-d, but later I'm back again. Very
emotional, very Italian!


Welcome back, Gabriele :-)

And to add to your list of essentials, please do not forget

Cascading Style Sheets : Designing for the Web

by Håkon Wium Lie and Bert Bos.

Without this book, I would probably still be using tables for
layout and body topmargin=..., etc.

Philip Taylor

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Re: [css-d] @fontface

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Did both you and Rob reduce the window width to  400px
as suggested ?  Strange things happen when you do that
in Seamonkey 2.0.11 under Win/XP;SP3 @ 1152 x 864

Philip Taylor

Chetan Crasta wrote:

On my computer (ubuntu), there was absolutely no styling of any
element on the page. It might have something to do with the CSS error?
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://chelseacreekstudio.com/indexx.phpprofile=css3

~Chetan
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--
Not sent from my i-Pad, i-Phone, Blackberry, Blueberry, or any
such similar poseurs' toy, none of which would I be seen dead
with even if they came free with every packet of cornflakes.
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Re: [css-d] HTML, CSS, JavaScript: Model-View-Controller

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Kevin A. Cameron wrote:


To be honest this 'discussion' on the merits of this post was a far greater
waste of time than the post in question! :P


With respect, I disagree.  Whilst Gabriele's weblog citations
were initially interesting, of late they have been coming so
frequently that I was close to installing a Gabriele filter
to keep them out.  I am very grateful that Gabriele has now
shown the good sense to agree to reduce the number of posts
relating to his/her weblog, and I imagine that other list
members may well feel the same way.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

smallvoiceshout...@gmail.com wrote:

Yes, titillium in those two instances. Wouldn't expect it to be
different but checked in Safari (win), Chrome, Opera, IE 7,8 and it's
present in all.
Bill
--


Hi,
I downloaded and installed Seamonkey 2.02 (Windows). Why not? :)


One reason would be because the release version is 2.0.11 !
Where did you find an archived 2.0.2 ?

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Rory Bernstein wrote:


Ah. I see the light. OK, I just uploaded the OTF files. Can I now assume that 
this font will show for most users?
Thank you so much for this help,
Rory


Trailer looks really horrible in Seamonkey 2.0.11 under
Windows/XP;SP3 at 1152 x 864, and 3 in page numbers
looks significantly smaller than 1, 2, 4 and 17;
see :


http://picasaweb.google.com/Chaa006/ScreenCaptures?authkey=Gv1sRgCPLV3Kvwm6zA5QE#5558057498710109474

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Chetan Crasta wrote:


The issues described by Phillip are
due to Windows' horrible rendering of @font-face embedded fonts.
Windows XP, Vista and 7 do not correctly apply font smoothing to
embedded fonts. The issue affects all browsers on the windows
platform.


Do you have a citation for this, Chetan ?  I'd be interested
to read more concerning this artifact of Windows.

** Phil.
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:

 In general, the fonts I've used did/do look pretty good on all Windows OS

Do have you have some sample pages that I can compare
with the Newton offering, Philippe ?

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] unable to over ride an li

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Thierry Koblentz wrote:


Imho, using element#id to increase the weight of a rule makes sense, but not
when it is used as a hint to help us read and understand rules. I'd think
/*comments*/ are better suited for that.


I'm afraid I can't agree with that, Thierry : comments indicate
only the coder's intentions; code indicates exactly what he
(or she) has actually written.  Well-written code rarely
needs comments; poor code needs an overabundance of them.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] unable to over ride an li

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Thierry Koblentz wrote:


Well-written css code means *lean* selectors so a well written styles sheet
should need more comments than a badly written one, isn't?.


With respect, I disagree : you are choosing to interpret well-written
as efficient; I interpret well-written as transparent,
immediately clear to the reader, code that demonstrates clarity
of thought and clarity of expression.

** Phil.
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Re: [css-d] unable to over ride an li

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Thierry Koblentz wrote:


#mainmenu ul li#last #donations {font-size:1.24em;}

What is immediately clear to you in that rule?


That within an element of ID mainmenu will occur a UL;
within that, there will occur an LI of ID last; and
somewhere within that will occur an element of ID donations,
and that element should be styled with font-size: 1.24em.
I would criticise it on the basis of the totally unnecessary
semi-colon at the end, and would prefer to see a space after
the colon.


1. the extra selectors are needed to give enough weight to that rule


No.


2. li is used to differentiate this rule from another one that targets the
same ID, but on a DIV (in another document)


Possible but highly unlikely.


3. all the above


No.


4. none of the above


Probably.


Imho, with the short version, there is much less guessing. What's clear to
the reader is that we're styling that key selector, nothing more. We are not
messing with specificity and we are not sending mixed signals by pairing the
element with its ID. If we decide to add a comment it is to help authors
spot the element in the sheet and/or document, not to tell them what we're
actually doing. That's because our short selector makes that obvious.


As always in matters such as this, each of us is entitled to his
or her own opinion.  In the spirit of Happy 2011, I am more
than happy to agree to differ and to leave others to form their
own opinions of the relative merits of our individual perspectives.
How does that sound to you ?

** Phil.
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[css-d] W3C CSS Validation Service

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

I don't know if it is just a case of excessive nostalgia, but
am I alone in thinking that the W3C CSS service is not what it
once was (in terms of Q.A., that is) ?  I ask because I have
recently thrown a number of putatively CSS documents at it,
the most recent being :


http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F%2Flettershop.ehclients.com%2Fcss%2Fall.cssprofile=css21usermedium=allwarning=1lang=en

and the results returned are, in the main, complete and utter
nonsense.  What, for example, does it mean by

2Value Error : font-family
Property font-family doesn't exist in CSS
level 2.1 but exists in : 'Titillium Text22L
Bold'  'Titillium Text22L Bold'

or

Property src doesn't exist :
url('../fonts/TitilliumText22L005-webfont.eot')
url('../fonts/TitilliumText22L005-webfont.eot')

The first is meaningful up to but exists in, then drifts
off into nonsense, whilst the second makes references to
a property that doesn't occur in the cited text fragment.

I am convinced that it used to do considerably better than
this; what do others think ?

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] W3C CSS Validation Service

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Alan Gresley wrote:


What do you inspect to happen with embed font? The validator sees your
CSS as junk. Why don't you try to validate as CSS3.

http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F%2Flettershop.ehclients.com%2Fcss%2Fall.cssprofile=css3usermedium=allwarning=1lang=en


Only one error. Cool. :-)


What the validator sees it as is not my point; what I was
expecting was a meaningful diagnostic, such as


2 Value Error : font-family
Property font-family doesn't exist in CSS
level 2.1 but exists in CSS level 3


and/or


Property src doesn't exist :
src: url('../fonts/TitilliumText22L005-webfont.eot');


rather than the apparently arbitrary strings that the
validator is currently issuing.

Philip Taylor






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Re: [css-d] W3C CSS Validation Service

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Alan Gresley wrote:


What the validator sees it as is not my point; what I was expecting
was a meaningful diagnostic, such as


2 Value Error : font-family Property font-family doesn't exist in
CSS level 2.1 but exists in CSS level 3


Firstly it treats this as valid CSS2.1.


(snip)

OK, but this still seems to be ignoring the main issue.

The validator says Value error : Property whatever
doesn't exist in CSS 2.1 but exists in   At that
point, the user would reasonably expect to be told in
which dialect(s) of CSS Property whatever exists;
instead, he is told exist in ... a string from his
CSS, not containing said property, which is then repeated
for no apparent reason whatsoever.


If you have this via direct input.

body {
margin: 10px;
src: url('../fonts/TitilliumText22L005-webfont.eot');
padding: 20px;
}

You get this.

Property src doesn't exist :
url('../fonts/TitilliumText22L005-webfont.eot')
url('../fonts/TitilliumText22L005-webfont.eot')

Which is almost the same as you were seeking.


No it's not : it's totally different.  What I am seeking
is a mention of this property src that does not exist,
not a quasi-random snippet of the CSS that (a) does not
contain src, and (b) is once again repeated for no
apparent reason whatsoever.

I am sorry, Alan, the validator seems to be a complete
and utter mess at the moment, no matter how generously
you seek to defend its aberrant behaviour.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] W3C CSS Validation Service

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Before providing feedback, David, I am trying to establish
whether there is a real problem or whether there is an
error of perception.  Which is why it would be nice to
try and achieve consensus on this list as to whether or
not the validator is behaving aberrantly before raising
it with the W3C Validator team.

Philip Taylor

David Laakso wrote:


How to provide feedback on w3c's CSS Validation Service
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/Email.html

~d

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Re: [css-d] W3C CSS Validation Service

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Alan Gresley wrote:


Property src doesn't exist :
url('../fonts/TitilliumText22L005-webfont.eot')
url('../fonts/TitilliumText22L005-webfont.eot')

Which is almost the same as you were seeking.


No it's not : it's totally different. What I am seeking
is a mention of this property src that does not exist,
not a quasi-random snippet of the CSS that (a) does not
contain src, and (b) is once again repeated for no
apparent reason whatsoever.



But that is what it says.

Property src doesn't exist


Yes, but NOT (apologies for shouting) in the fragment that
it then echoes, and then -- for no apparent reason -- repeats.


I do believe the onus is on the author to use the correct level of CSS
for a correct report since CSS doesn't have a thing called a Doctype.


There may well be merit in that argument, but are beginning authors
such as Rory likely to be aware of which level of CSS they are
apparently trying to use, particularly when recycling code fragments
from other sites ?

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] W3C CSS Validation Service

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

So : I have simplified Rory's all.css down to the shortest
fragment than can generate a diagnostic from the validator :

@font-face
{
font-family:foo;
}

Here is what the validator says :


Property font-family doesn't exist in CSS level 2.1 but exists in : foo  foo


Would other CSS-D members agree that

(a) A diagnostic Property X does not exist in CSS level Y
but exists in :  could reasonably be expected to continue by
citing the dialect(s) of CSS in which Property X /does/ exist ?

(b) The statement Property X doesn't exist in CSS level Y
but exists in : foo  foo is completely wrong
   (it does /not/ exist in foo  foo ) and would appear
to be the result of an error in the coding of the validator ?

and

(c) That the repetition in foo foo, which does not occur
in the source, is also an indication of an apparent error
in the coding of the validator ?

If there is some degree of agreement on this, I will submit feedback
to the W3C Validator team.

Philip Taylor



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Re: [css-d] W3C CSS Validation Service

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Alan Gresley wrote:


Then this is what feedback you can give.

Take this string.

svg {opacity:0.5}

The report back is.

Property opacity doesn't exist in CSS level 2.1 but exists in : 0.5 0.5

A little over a week ago, it did say but exists in CSS level 3


Fine, so we agree : the validator has (once again) taken a backward
step.  That was the premiss on which I started this thread, so I am
glad that there is now agreement that this is indeed the case and
a suitable error report can therefore be submitted.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Not convinced you are doing your client any favours
by using that : I have to zoom in by a factor of
four before the glyphs stop breaking up :-(

Seamonkey 2.0.11, Win/XP;SP3 @ 1152 x 864.

Philip Taylor

Rory Bernstein wrote:

Hi,

I am using a google-hosted embedded web font called Neuton:
http://code.google.com/webfonts/family?family=Neutonsubset=latin

Here is a coded page that uses it.



http://lettershop.ehclients.com/visual_diary_archive

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Re: [css-d] google hosted font question

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Rory Bernstein wrote:


Thanks for the screenshots, Phillip.


You're very welcome.


What I find most disturbing is that the other font (the sans
serif one) is not even showing up for you; it is rendering in
some other font. (I'm talking about the grey, all caps items in
the nav bar). How disturbing. That is a font squirrel font
called tilillium. Do you know why it is not showing up for you?
I see you are using the seamonkey browser (which I had never
heard of).


I don't, but when I have time I will research font embedding
and Seamonkey for you.  Seamonkey is pretty mainstream : it
is derived from the same codebase as Firefox (that is,
it uses Gecko as the embedded processor) but contains an
integrated e-mail client (thus eliminating the need for
Thunderbird).  It is very much a modern-day replacement
for the much-loved but now defunct Netscape Suite and
I use it for all my browsing, never needing to fall back
on Firefox or (spits discreetly) Internet Explorer.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Three col faq

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Tim Climis wrote:


#left {
float: left;
width: 30%;
}

#right {
float: right;
width: 25%;
}

#center {
margin-left: 30%;
margin-right: 25%;
min-height: 12em; /* min-height does not work in IE6 */
}


The problem is surely in the replication of 30% and 25%; as I
understood the original query, the idea is to deduce the
margins from the width of the left and right columns, not
to explicit replicate their values.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] [html4all-conf] hgroup alternativ: h1 abbr=shortlong/h1

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Leif Halvard Silli wrote:


When you say 'two or more unrelated effects', then I think we should
discuss whether it *is* two unrelated effects. I don't really see that
it is.


OK, let me try to explain, based on your web page in which you
raise this idea, and with some real TOCs to demonstrate my concern.


(2) Content attribute - @abbr contains the text for the ToC:

   h1 abbr='My terrific idea' 
My terrific idea. How I saved HTML5 from being a mess/h1

If @abbr is emtpy, then no text lands in the ToC:

   h1My terrific idea.h1
   h2 abbr=''How I saved HTML5 from being a mess/h2


Example 1 :

h1Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the party/h1
h2The quick brown fox jumps right over the lazy dog's back/h2

1.  Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the party . . . 1
1.1 The quick brown fox jumps right over the lazy dog's back . . . . . . . 1

Example 2 :

h1 abbr=Now is the timeNow is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the 
party/h1
h2The quick brown fox jumps right over the lazy dog's back/h2

1.  Now is the time  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
1.1 The quick brown fox jumps right over the lazy dog's back . . . . . . . 1

Example 3a :

h1 abbr=Now is the timeNow is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the 
party/h1
h2 abbr=The quick brown fox jumps right over the lazy dog's back/h2

1.  Now is the time  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
1.1  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1

Example 3b :

h1 abbr=Now is the timeNow is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the 
party/h1
h2 abbr=The quick brown fox jumps right over the lazy dog's back/h2

1.  Now is the time  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1

My question : why is 3b correct ?  The attribute specifies an abbreviation
that will replace the primary content in the TOC; it does not specify whether
or not the element will get a TOC entry, only what that TOC entry will read.
For that, you would need a second attribute : notoc (or toc='false',
or whatever).

** Phil.
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Re: [css-d] Hanging drop cap

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Not run-in (see http://web-consultants.org.uk/sites/Gabriele/SS-1.jpg);
was this intended ?
Philip Taylor

Gabriele Romanato wrote:
 I don't know what vacations are:

 http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/2010/12/css-hanging-drop-cap.html
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Re: [css-d] Vendor prefixes and validation

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Alan Gresley wrote:


It's time now to drop the prefixes. Now if you wish to debate this, then
please feel most welcome to subscribe to the CSS WG list. Not that you
will stop anything.


How are those not involved in the current discussion intended to
interpret that last sentence, Alan ?  Are we meant to infer that
the CSS WG is an unstoppable leviathon, and that no amount of
informed input will in any way affect its decisions ?

Philip Taylor
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