date:20141104

El Tue, 04 Nov 2014 09:25:54 -0400, luis escribió:

 On Mon, 3 Nov 2014 18:34:43 + (UTC), Camaleón wrote:

(...)

 /luis# env LANG=C /usr/bin/mrtg Subroutine
 SNMP_Session::pack_sockaddr_in6 redefined at
 /usr/share/perl/5.14/Exporter.pm line 67.

 (...)

 alguna idea d epor qu'e ocurre esto ?

 Parece que se trata de un bug:

 libsnmp-session-perl: Warnings from SNMP_Session.pm
 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=628804

 Lo han corregido en versiones posteriores pero hay un parche
 disponible,
 si te interesa lo dices y se te puede enviar por e-mail.
 
 Buenos días Camaleón, si claro que me interesa, pero donde busco el
 parche y como se instala ???

(...)

El parche es para el paquete libsnmp-session-perl, versión 1.13-1 y el 
paquete donde ya está corregido es la 1.13-1.1.

Te mando por e-mail aparte el contenido del bug para que lo leas con 
tranquilidad, el parche para aplicar sobre la versión indicada y el 
paquete deb (si arquitectura) que ya corrige el problema por si lo 
pudieras instalar directamente siempre y cuando no te genere ningún error.

De todas formas, parece un mensaje inocuo, vamos, más molesto que otra 
cosa.

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.11.04.14.28...@gmail.com

Re: [OT] Re: OpenStack - Qué es???

El Mon, 03 Nov 2014 16:37:18 -0300, Mauro Antivero escribió:

 El 29/10/14 a las 13:09, Camaleón escibió:
 El Wed, 29 Oct 2014 12:32:48 -0300, Mauro Antivero escribió:

(...)

 La duda que me surge es cual sería la diferencia en si entre tener una
 nube privada y en ella virtualizar servidores contra tener un hardware
 dedicado con VirtualBox, KVM, etc. y virtualizar sobre este?
 La diferencia entre OpenStack y un sistema virtualizado es que en
 OpenStack la virtualización es opcional, es decir, trabaja sobre
 hierros,
 no hay una segunda capa de software ni emulación/virtualziación.

 Perdón por la demora en leer / contestar, no me había podido tener
 tranquilo con esto.

No problemo.
 
 Osea que lo que haría OS es administrar un cluster sobre el cual yo
 correría distintos servicios?
 
 Sigo leyendo las demás respuestas.

Sí, algo así, si por clúster entiendes un conjunto de servicios (capa 
de software + capa de hardware) que se ejecutan en armonía :-)

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.11.04.14.33...@gmail.com

Re: [OT] Re: OpenStack - Qué es???

El Mon, 03 Nov 2014 15:27:44 -0500, Erick Ocrospoma escribió:

 2014-10-29 13:10 GMT-05:00 Camaleón noela...@gmail.com:
 
 El Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:29:14 +0100, juanlu escribió:

(...)

  Esto no me acaba de quedar claro. Sin ser experto, había entendido
  que OpenStack es una capa de servicios que te facilitan gestionar
  máquinas virtuales:

 (...)

 ¿Tienes alguna referencia? Yo creo que no sirve para eso. Por poner un
 ejemplo y a modo de comparativa, sería más parecido a hearbeat/
 pacemaker (servicio de monitorización de clústers en HA).


 No, HA no viene por defecto y a su vez se basa en corosync/pacemaker
 para lograrlo. Además de que en esencia NO es para lograr HA más bien
 gestión y organización de tu propia nube/datacenter.

Creo que no me has entendido ;-)

Lo que quería decir es que OpenStack NO es un sistema de virtualización 
sino de administración y gestión y que su cometido es similar al de 
hearbeat/pacemaker en un clúster.

 Cosa distinta es que alguno de los nodos o equipos gestionados por
 OpenStack sean máquinas virtuales pero las VM se crean/gestionan
 aparte,
 con sus herramientas correspondientes (VMwares, KVMs, Xenes,
 contenedores, etc...).


 Si bien en términos técnicos viene a ser eso, la diferencia y el trabajo
 que permite Openstack es de poder predefinir plantillas de  máquinas
 virtuales (imágenes), es decir que puedas crear una VM con disco, RAM, y
 hasta incluso el esquema de particiones, todo esto sin necesidad de
 pasar por el proceso de instalación. Han usado AWS ? Ya, es lo mismo,
 levantar tu VM a partir de un AMI. Obviamente que lo pesado es crear la
 imagen (en AWS, Openstack y cualquier otro cloud).
 
 Lo ideal es que uses clusters frecuentemente sobre Openstack, pero la
 ventaja (basada en las imágenes) es esa precisamente, levantar muchas
 máquinas virtuales A MEDIDA (que no es lo mismo que clonar una VM en
 Virtualbox/KVM/VMware pues siempre será el mismo OS) según la necesidad.

A ver, que me parece que te has confundido al leer clústers más arriba. 
OpenStack no es más que un conjunto de aplicaciones (software) que te 
permite gestionar distintos servicios -lo que ahora se conoce como 
nube- y que no deja de ser un sistema en línea de toda la vida.

OpenStack lo que permite es unificar/centralizar todos los procesos de 
comunicaciones, almacenamiento, control de usuarios, sesiones, etc. entre 
todos los sistemas que entran en juego (servidor de correo, mensajería, 
bases de datos, etc.) y estos servicios obviamente se pueden ejecutar en 
un sistema real o en un sistema virtual. No hay más misterio.

 Además de esto soporta APIs para web services, servicios para storage,
 medición de rendimiento,y un largo etc.
 
 Si, básicamente es gestión, pero su potencial va más allá, es por eso
 que tiene tanta acogida. No por nada lo utiliza Rackspace como servicio
 principal sobre su infraestructura (aunque sobre Xen).

Correcto, es muy flexible pero NO es un sistema de virtualización ni 
necesita que se usen máquinas virtuales para poder sacarle partido.

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.11.04.14.44...@gmail.com

Re: pcmanfm ssh operacion no soportada

El Mon, 03 Nov 2014 21:33:57 -0300, Ricardo Delgado escribió:

 El día 3 de noviembre de 2014, 12:02, Camaleón noela...@gmail.com
 escribió:
 El Sun, 02 Nov 2014 19:01:02 -0300, Ricardo Delgado escribió:
co.

 buscando por la web no encontre nada al respecto.

 Hay que buscar en inglés...

 https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCManFM#Operation_not_supported

 si, busque tanto en español como en ingles y al menos yo no pude
 encontrar nada, 

Te he puesto el enlace más arriba donde hablan del tema y en Google 
tienes aún más datos sobre ese mensaje.

 tambien probe lanzar con sudo, como root, y nada siempre el mismo
 mensaje.

No, no se trata de ejecutarlo como root sino con las variables de entorno 
adecuadas y dado que se trata de una aplicación gráfica es posible que 
tengas que usar algún helper (como gksu/kdesu) para poder definirlas 
correctamente en tu sesión pero en Openbox no sé qué se usa para esto.

Seguramente si creas un lanzador en el escritorio (arhcivo .desktop) 
con ese comando funcione sin problemas.
 
 seguire mirando logs y el systemctl quizas me tire alguna punta.
 
 la otra, esperar la proxima actualizacion, tal vez se solucione.

Palabras clave para Google: PCManFM+Operation not supported

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.11.04.14.51...@gmail.com

Re: Error de GPG

El Mon, 03 Nov 2014 19:44:33 -0500, Germán Avendaño Ramírez escribió:

 Cordial saludo
 
 Al intentar actualizar, me aparece el siguiente error
 
 W: Error de GPG: http://security.debian.org wheezy/updates Release: Las
 siguientes firms fueron inválidas: BADSIG 8B48AD6246925553 Debian
 Archive Automatic Signing Key (7.0/wheezy) ftpmas...@debian.org
 
 y luego me advierte si quiero instalar las actualizaciones sin firmar.
 He dicho que no, mientras busco alguna ayuda.

Prueba a usar un servidor espejo¹ diferente para el repo de seguridad. 

Es posible que si tu conexión pasa por un proxy te esté devolviendo un 
archivo en caché que ya no es válido y cabe la posibilidad de que si 
fuerzas el cambio de servidor obligues al ISP a que te devuelva uno 
actualizado.

¹https://www.debian.org/mirror/list-full

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.11.04.14.58...@gmail.com

Re: ffmpeg

El Mon, 03 Nov 2014 22:23:11 -0300, Ricardo Zúñiga escribió:

 Estoy tratando de hacer streaming vía ffmpeg el problema que tuve es que
 de los repositorios se bajo una versión antigua la cual no soporta mp4,
 3gp y todo formato de celular.

No creo que sea por un problema de versiones sino debido a la restricción 
de la licencia de los códecs multimedia. Instala el meta-paquete 
libavcodec-extra a ver si te sirve.

Recuerda que también tienes el paquete en el repo D-M.

 Me baje la versión actual y la compile pero sigue sin soportar estos
 formatos, no se si es porque aun sigue tomándome la versión antigua o
 que...
 
 
 # ffmpeg -i 50.mp4 -acodec copy -vcodec copy -f flv
 punto_de_publicacion_X ffmpeg version git-2014-10-22-6dc99fd Copyright
 (c) 2000-2014 the FFmpeg developers
   built on Nov  3 2014 18:22:32 with gcc 4.7 (Debian 4.7.2-5)

(...)

 [mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2 @ 0x22bad20] Format mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2
 detected only with low score of 1, misdetection possible!
 [mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2 @ 0x22bad20] moov atom not found
 
 
 Quizás vaya por otro lado el problema, espero una ayuda guia ya sea para
 eliminar cualquier rastro de ffmpeg del sistema o para solucionar el
 error.

¿Has probado a no forzar el formato del contenedor de salida? Es decir, 
sin el -f flv

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.11.04.15.17...@gmail.com

Re: problemas de dependencias con python-dev

2014-11-04 Thread Carlos Carcamo

El día 3 de noviembre de 2014, 11:08,  ruwor...@gmail.com escribió:
 On 14-11-03 09:11:52, Carlos Carcamo wrote:
 El día 2 de noviembre de 2014, 18:24, fernando sainz
 fernandojose.sa...@gmail.com escribió:
  El día 3 de noviembre de 2014, 0:53, Carlos Carcamo
  eazyd...@gmail.com escribió:
  Saludos, recientemente he tratado de installar el paquete: python-dev
 
  $ sudo apt-get install python-dev
  ...
  Los siguientes paquetes tienen dependencias incumplidas:
   python-dev : Depende: python (= 2.7.3-4+deb7u1) pero 2.7.8-1 va a ser 
  instalado
Depende: python2.7-dev (= 2.7.3-1~) pero no va a instalarse
 
  Actualmente tengo instalado:
  Python 2.7.8

 Para saber que versión es la que se va a instalar y de que repositorio:
 apt-cache policy python python-dev

 Seguramente tengas que rotocar el pining.

 Un saludo

Agregue los repositorios de debian jessie e instale python-dev desde jessie.
Hice esto debido a que la versión de python que tengo es la que esta
en jessie y no la de wheezy como pensé, tratar de remover mi versión
de python e instalar la que viene con wheezy es algo problemático ya
que tengo varias cosas instaladas que dependen de este y pueda que
algo me falle así que decidí usar apt-pinning por esta vez para
instalar python-dev, afortunadamente no tuve problemas al hacerlo.



-- 
El desarrollo no es material es un estado de conciencia mental


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
https://lists.debian.org/CADpTsTbLhNiLKNRM=vf8bmm_jghdxzuqd3a-8+yqf_qohw0...@mail.gmail.com

Re: problemas al configurar mrtg

2014-11-04 Thread luis


On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 14:28:19 + (UTC), Camaleón wrote:

El Tue, 04 Nov 2014 09:25:54 -0400, luis escribió:


On Mon, 3 Nov 2014 18:34:43 + (UTC), Camaleón wrote:


(...)


/luis# env LANG=C /usr/bin/mrtg Subroutine
SNMP_Session::pack_sockaddr_in6 redefined at
/usr/share/perl/5.14/Exporter.pm line 67.


(...)


alguna idea d epor qu'e ocurre esto ?


Parece que se trata de un bug:

libsnmp-session-perl: Warnings from SNMP_Session.pm
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=628804

Lo han corregido en versiones posteriores pero hay un parche
disponible,
si te interesa lo dices y se te puede enviar por e-mail.


Buenos días Camaleón, si claro que me interesa, pero donde busco el
parche y como se instala ???


(...)

El parche es para el paquete libsnmp-session-perl, versión 1.13-1 y 
el

paquete donde ya está corregido es la 1.13-1.1.

Te mando por e-mail aparte el contenido del bug para que lo leas con
tranquilidad, el parche para aplicar sobre la versión indicada y el
paquete deb (si arquitectura) que ya corrige el problema por si lo
pudieras instalar directamente siempre y cuando no te genere ningún 
error.


De todas formas, parece un mensaje inocuo, vamos, más molesto que 
otra

cosa.

Saludos,

--
Camaleón




Hola siii
Muchas gracias Camaleón, instalé esto que me recomendaste de la página 
y lo instalé


http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/libs/libsnmp-session-perl/libsnmp-session-perl_1.13-1.1_all.deb

Todo bien excepto esto:

Trafico total de Eth1

Estadísticas actualizadas el Martes 4 de Noviembre de 2014 a las 10:15,
'-e' ha estado funcionando durante -e.

Me sale el '-e-' en el reporte y no se la razón hace tiempo

Alguna idea??



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/bcfcd2d26f7f2902220b84303a4e6...@ida.cu

Re: Partición pierde UUID

El Tue, 04 Nov 2014 10:20:53 +0100, ZorroPlateado escribió:

 Tras la última actualización en Debian estable y en un servidor que
 comenzó hace 10 años, la partición asociada a boot /dev/sdc1 no ha
 variado y hasta ahora no ha presentado este problema.

Pero ya sabes que los kernels más recientes recomiendan el uso de la 
nueva nomenclatura (id/uuid/label/path) de lo contrario te arriesgas a 
que la partición cambie en cada reinicio.
 
 El caso es que al reinicio del servidor tras actualizar kernel y demás
 paquetes el sistema no arranca porque busca la partición en base a UUID,
 una vez arrancamos con CTRL+D intentamos extraer el id con el comando
 blkid sin éxito, incluso intento asignarse el mismo id con el comando
 tune2fs -U pero sin éxito por que de nuevo blkid no devuelve valor
 alguno.

Ojo, que el UUID no es lo mismo que el ID, son identificadores distintos. 
Podrás ver todos los identificadores disponibles ejecutando:

ls -la /dev/disk/by-*

 Sospecho que tras 10 años los discos (en RAID5 por hardware) van a
 empezar a dar problema alguno.
 
 ¿Alguien tiene idea o ha pasado por la misma situación?

Si es un RAID5 por hardware es transparente para el kernel, lo único que 
habrá podido pasar es que al reiniciar se haya traspapelado la partición.

Eso sí, asegúrate que el error que te da al iniciar sea efectivamente un 
problema de identificación de la partición y no otro (módulo del kernel 
no cargado/encontrado, etc...)

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.11.04.15.52...@gmail.com

Re: problemas al configurar mrtg

El Tue, 04 Nov 2014 11:38:23 -0400, luis escribió:

 On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 14:28:19 + (UTC), Camaleón wrote:

(...)

 Te mando por e-mail aparte el contenido del bug para que lo leas con
 tranquilidad, el parche para aplicar sobre la versión indicada y el
 paquete deb (si arquitectura) que ya corrige el problema por si lo
 pudieras instalar directamente siempre y cuando no te genere ningún
 error.

 De todas formas, parece un mensaje inocuo, vamos, más molesto que otra
 cosa.

 
 Hola siii Muchas gracias Camaleón,
 instalé esto que me recomendaste de la página y lo instalé
 
 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/libs/libsnmp-session-perl/
libsnmp-session-perl_1.13-1.1_all.deb

¿Tienes acceso a Internet? O_o

 Todo bien excepto esto:
 
 Trafico total de Eth1
 
 Estadísticas actualizadas el Martes 4 de Noviembre de 2014 a las 10:15,
 '-e' ha estado funcionando durante -e.
 
 Me sale el '-e-' en el reporte y no se la razón hace tiempo
 
 Alguna idea??

Ya te respondí hace -e meses :-P

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user-spanish/2014/07/msg00396.html

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.11.04.16.04...@gmail.com

Re: Partición pierde UUID

2014-11-04 Thread Manolo Díaz

El martes, 4 nov 2014 a las 16:52 horas (UTC+1),
Camaleón escribió:

Pero ya sabes que los kernels más recientes recomiendan el uso de la 
nueva nomenclatura (id/uuid/label/path) de lo contrario te arriesgas a 
que la partición cambie en cada reinicio.

¿De dónde sacas esa recomendación?, porque la página man de mount dice
otra cosa:

The recommended setup is to use tags (e.g. LABEL=label) rather
than /dev/disk/by-{label,uuid,partuuid,partlabel} udev symlinks in
the /etc/fstab file. Tags are more readable, robust and portable. The
mount(8) command internally uses udev symlinks, so the use of symlinks
in /etc/fstab has no advantage over tags. For more details see
libblkid(3).

Saludos.
-- 
Manolo Díaz


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141104174130.12bad...@gmail.com

Re: Partición pierde UUID

El Tue, 04 Nov 2014 17:41:30 +0100, Manolo Díaz escribió:

 El martes, 4 nov 2014 a las 16:52 horas (UTC+1),
 Camaleón escribió:
 
Pero ya sabes que los kernels más recientes recomiendan el uso de la
nueva nomenclatura (id/uuid/label/path) de lo contrario te arriesgas a
que la partición cambie en cada reinicio.
 
 ¿De dónde sacas esa recomendación?, 

Pues del mismo sitio que tú ;-)

 porque la página man de mount dice otra cosa:
 
 The recommended setup is to use tags (e.g. LABEL=label) rather than
 /dev/disk/by-{label,uuid,partuuid,partlabel} udev symlinks in the
 /etc/fstab file. Tags are more readable, robust and portable. The
 mount(8) command internally uses udev symlinks, so the use of symlinks
 in /etc/fstab has no advantage over tags. For more details see
 libblkid(3).

¿Y exactamente donde ves tú la contradicción?

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.11.04.17.31...@gmail.com

OT: Dominios en FreeDNS Afraid

2014-11-04 Thread Juan

Buenas tardes, antes que nada pido disculpas por el OT, pero no se donde
podría hacer esta consulta y creo que por acá puede haber gente que me
ayude.

El problema / duda que tengo es que estoy registrado como usuario en
Freedns Afraid.org, al consultar los dominios que tengo cargados ene l
sistema me muestra 3, que son correctos, pero tengo otro adicional que
no aparece en el listado de dominios, pero si quiero agregarlo, me dice
que ya está ¿¿?? No se como hacer para poder verlo, recorri todas las
opciones del panel lateral y no lo encuentro.

Y por otro lado, a pesar de tener una clave larga, que mezcla letras y
numeros, mayúsculas y minusculas, son ningun sentido logico, veo que dos
de los dominios tiene creados subdominios que incluso han sido baneados
por el administrador, y no los puedo borrar. Yo no los cree, se ve que
han usurpado mi cienta o bien algun bot ha accedido a hacerlo y creo
esos subdominios.

Si alguien me puede orientar en estas dos dudas, quedo a la espera de
sus respuestas. Si consideran que debe ser por fuera de la lista, ya que
estamos hablando de un OT, no tengo problemas en que me respondan a mi
cuenta directamente, sin pasar por acá.

Gracias

Juan


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54590f51.4010...@gmail.com

Re: [OT] Re: OpenStack - Qué es???

2014-11-04 Thread Erick Ocrospoma

2014-11-04 9:44 GMT-05:00 Camaleón noela...@gmail.com:

 El Mon, 03 Nov 2014 15:27:44 -0500, Erick Ocrospoma escribió:

  2014-10-29 13:10 GMT-05:00 Camaleón noela...@gmail.com:
 
  El Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:29:14 +0100, juanlu escribió:

 (...)

   Esto no me acaba de quedar claro. Sin ser experto, había entendido
   que OpenStack es una capa de servicios que te facilitan gestionar
   máquinas virtuales:
 
  (...)
 
  ¿Tienes alguna referencia? Yo creo que no sirve para eso. Por poner un
  ejemplo y a modo de comparativa, sería más parecido a hearbeat/
  pacemaker (servicio de monitorización de clústers en HA).
 
 
  No, HA no viene por defecto y a su vez se basa en corosync/pacemaker
  para lograrlo. Además de que en esencia NO es para lograr HA más bien
  gestión y organización de tu propia nube/datacenter.

 Creo que no me has entendido ;-)

 Lo que quería decir es que OpenStack NO es un sistema de virtualización
 sino de administración y gestión y que su cometido es similar al de
 hearbeat/pacemaker en un clúster.


Pues haces muy mal en comparar, el tipo de gestión que hace Pacemaker es
a otro nivel.
Disculpa pero pareciera que solo lo dices para demostrar que sabes mucho
(no es la primera vez que leo una respuesta tuya algo fuera de foco).

 Cosa distinta es que alguno de los nodos o equipos gestionados por
  OpenStack sean máquinas virtuales pero las VM se crean/gestionan
  aparte,
  con sus herramientas correspondientes (VMwares, KVMs, Xenes,
  contenedores, etc...).
 
 
  Si bien en términos técnicos viene a ser eso, la diferencia y el trabajo
  que permite Openstack es de poder predefinir plantillas de  máquinas
  virtuales (imágenes), es decir que puedas crear una VM con disco, RAM, y
  hasta incluso el esquema de particiones, todo esto sin necesidad de
  pasar por el proceso de instalación. Han usado AWS ? Ya, es lo mismo,
  levantar tu VM a partir de un AMI. Obviamente que lo pesado es crear la
  imagen (en AWS, Openstack y cualquier otro cloud).
 
  Lo ideal es que uses clusters frecuentemente sobre Openstack, pero la
  ventaja (basada en las imágenes) es esa precisamente, levantar muchas
  máquinas virtuales A MEDIDA (que no es lo mismo que clonar una VM en
  Virtualbox/KVM/VMware pues siempre será el mismo OS) según la necesidad.

 A ver, que me parece que te has confundido al leer clústers más arriba.
 OpenStack no es más que un conjunto de aplicaciones (software)
 macenismoque te
 permite gestionar distintos servicios -lo que ahora se conoce como
 nube- y que no deja de ser un sistema en línea de toda la vida.

 OpenStack lo que permite es unificar/centralizar todos los procesos de
 comunicaciones, almacenamiento, control de usuarios, sesiones, etc. entre
 todos los sistemas que entran en juego (servidor de correo, mensajería,
 bases de datos, etc.) y estos servicios obviamente se pueden ejecutar en
 un sistema real o en un sistema virtual. No hay más misterio.


No. No hay más misterio, no han inventando el nuevo software revolucionario
del siglo. Pero por eso es que añadí algunos de los factores diferenciales
que Openstack tiene en comparación de cualquier aplicación para gestión de
máquinas virtuales (oVirsh, u otros frontends de KVM y Vbox), Openstack
está orientado a ser escalable, administrar docenas de máquinas virtuales,
orquestración = tu propio datacenter. Es otra perspectiva.

Si alguien a usado AWS (Amazon Web Services) o cualquier otro proveedor
Cloud (Linode, DigitalOcean, etc), habrá notado que es sencillo levantar
imagenes de OS en corto tiempo (sin necesidad de pasar por todo el proceso
de instalación), poder redimensionar y un largo etc (todo desde un
frontend), y precisamente por todo eso nació Openstack como una ALTERNATIVA
opensource a las clouds ya existentes.

Ahí radica su diferencia, y porque se ha vuelto tan popular. Fin.


  Además de esto soporta APIs para web services, servicios para storage,
  medición de rendimiento,y un largo etc.
 
  Si, básicamente es gestión, pero su potencial va más allá, es por eso
  que tiene tanta acogida. No por nada lo utiliza Rackspace como servicio
  principal sobre su infraestructura (aunque sobre Xen).

 Correcto, es muy flexible pero NO es un sistema de virtualización ni
 necesita que se usen máquinas virtuales para poder sacarle partido.

 Saludos,

 --
 Camaleón


 --
 To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
 with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact
 listmas...@lists.debian.org
 Archive: https://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.11.04.14.44...@gmail.com




-- 



~ Happy install !





Erick.

---

IRC :   zerick
About :  http://about.me/zerick
Linux User ID :  549567

Re: Partición pierde UUID

2014-11-04 Thread Manolo Díaz

El martes, 4 nov 2014 a las 18:31 horas (UTC+1),
Camaleón escribió:

El Tue, 04 Nov 2014 17:41:30 +0100, Manolo Díaz escribió:

 El martes, 4 nov 2014 a las 16:52 horas (UTC+1),
 Camaleón escribió:
 
Pero ya sabes que los kernels más recientes recomiendan el uso de la
nueva nomenclatura (id/uuid/label/path) de lo contrario te arriesgas a
 
que la partición cambie en cada reinicio.
 
 ¿De dónde sacas esa recomendación?, 

Pues del mismo sitio que tú ;-)

 porque la página man de mount dice otra cosa:
 
 The recommended setup is to use tags (e.g. LABEL=label) rather than
 /dev/disk/by-{label,uuid,partuuid,partlabel} udev symlinks in the
 /etc/fstab file. Tags are more readable, robust and portable. The
 mount(8) command internally uses udev symlinks, so the use of symlinks
 in /etc/fstab has no advantage over tags. For more details see
 libblkid(3).

¿Y exactamente donde ves tú la contradicción?

En path. Precisamente esa manera de identificar un disco y sus
particiones conviene evitarse. No hay garantías de que un disco que el
sistema ve ahora como /dev/sda (p. ej.) siga viéndose así siempre.

Saludos,

Saludos.
-- 
Manolo Díaz


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141104185755.36794...@gmail.com

Re: Partición pierde UUID

El Tue, 04 Nov 2014 18:57:55 +0100, Manolo Díaz escribió:

 El martes, 4 nov 2014 a las 18:31 horas (UTC+1),
 Camaleón escribió:
 
El Tue, 04 Nov 2014 17:41:30 +0100, Manolo Díaz escribió:

 El martes, 4 nov 2014 a las 16:52 horas (UTC+1),
 Camaleón escribió:
 
Pero ya sabes que los kernels más recientes recomiendan el uso de la
nueva nomenclatura (id/uuid/label/path) de lo contrario te arriesgas a
  
que la partición cambie en cada reinicio.
 
 ¿De dónde sacas esa recomendación?,

Pues del mismo sitio que tú ;-)

 porque la página man de mount dice otra cosa:
 
 The recommended setup is to use tags (e.g. LABEL=label) rather than
 /dev/disk/by-{label,uuid,partuuid,partlabel} udev symlinks in the
 /etc/fstab file. Tags are more readable, robust and portable. The
 mount(8) command internally uses udev symlinks, so the use of symlinks
 in /etc/fstab has no advantage over tags. For more details see
 libblkid(3).

¿Y exactamente donde ves tú la contradicción?
 
 En path. Precisamente esa manera de identificar un disco y sus
 particiones conviene evitarse. No hay garantías de que un disco que el
 sistema ve ahora como /dev/sda (p. ej.) siga viéndose así siempre.

Ninguna de las 4 opciones posibles es infalible -como bien dice más 
adelante la página del manual que apuntas- ya que p. ej., puede haber dos 
etiquetas (label) idénticas. Vamos, que hay que asegurarse de que sea 
cual sea el sistema de identificación elegido apunte al dispositivo 
adecuado y no haya duplicados.

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.11.04.18.36...@gmail.com

Re: [OT] Re: OpenStack - Qué es???

El Tue, 04 Nov 2014 12:57:19 -0500, Erick Ocrospoma escribió:

 2014-11-04 9:44 GMT-05:00 Camaleón noela...@gmail.com:

(...)

 Creo que no me has entendido ;-)

 Lo que quería decir es que OpenStack NO es un sistema de virtualización
 sino de administración y gestión y que su cometido es similar al de
 hearbeat/pacemaker en un clúster.


 Pues haces muy mal en comparar, el tipo de gestión que hace Pacemaker
 es a otro nivel.

Pues me pareció un ejemplo perfecto para que se entendiera para qué sirve 
y qué hace OpenStack porque por las respuestas que leía pareciera que 
estaba vinculado a la virtualización sí o sí y eso no es del todo cierto.

 Disculpa pero pareciera que solo lo dices para demostrar que sabes mucho
 (no es la primera vez que leo una respuesta tuya algo fuera de foco).

Pues no sé, hijo... estoy respondiendo a una pregunta y las dudas sobre 
qué hace y para qué sirve OpenStack, si eso es estar fuera de foco ya me 
dirás tú cómo hay que responder :-/

(...)

  Lo ideal es que uses clusters frecuentemente sobre Openstack, pero la
  ventaja (basada en las imágenes) es esa precisamente, levantar muchas
  máquinas virtuales A MEDIDA (que no es lo mismo que clonar una VM en
  Virtualbox/KVM/VMware pues siempre será el mismo OS) según la
  necesidad.

 A ver, que me parece que te has confundido al leer clústers más
 arriba.
 OpenStack no es más que un conjunto de aplicaciones (software)
 macenismoque te permite gestionar distintos servicios -lo que ahora se
 conoce como nube- y que no deja de ser un sistema en línea de toda la
 vida.

 OpenStack lo que permite es unificar/centralizar todos los procesos de
 comunicaciones, almacenamiento, control de usuarios, sesiones, etc.
 entre todos los sistemas que entran en juego (servidor de correo,
 mensajería, bases de datos, etc.) y estos servicios obviamente se
 pueden ejecutar en un sistema real o en un sistema virtual. No hay más
 misterio.


 No. No hay más misterio, no han inventando el nuevo software
 revolucionario del siglo. Pero por eso es que añadí algunos de los
 factores diferenciales que Openstack tiene en comparación de cualquier
 aplicación para gestión de máquinas virtuales (oVirsh, u otros frontends
 de KVM y Vbox), Openstack está orientado a ser escalable, administrar
 docenas de máquinas virtuales, orquestración = tu propio datacenter. Es
 otra perspectiva.

Es que las máquinas virtuales se gestionan como siempre, desde sus 
respectivas herramientas/hipervisores. Cosa aparte es que OpenStack tenga 
*soporte* para esos hipervisores, pero decir que OpenStack te permite 
controlar máquinas virtuales es como decir que el acceso remoto mediante 
ssh te permite controlar máquinas virtuales. Pues sí, pero es un 
argumento muy pillado.

No hay que olvidar que los conceptos de virtualización y nube no 
siempre van de la mano. Pueden darse juntos pero no siempre es así.

 Si alguien a usado AWS (Amazon Web Services) o cualquier otro proveedor
 Cloud (Linode, DigitalOcean, etc), habrá notado que es sencillo levantar
 imagenes de OS en corto tiempo (sin necesidad de pasar por todo el
 proceso de instalación), poder redimensionar y un largo etc (todo desde
 un frontend), y precisamente por todo eso nació Openstack como una
 ALTERNATIVA opensource a las clouds ya existentes.
 
 Ahí radica su diferencia, y porque se ha vuelto tan popular. Fin.

Y me parece muy bien, no tengo nada contra OpenStack.

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.11.04.19.06...@gmail.com

Re: OT: Dominios en FreeDNS Afraid

2014-11-04 Thread Flako

El día 4 de noviembre de 2014, 14:39, Juan jawif...@gmail.com escribió:
 Yo no los cree, se ve que
 han usurpado mi cienta o bien algun bot ha accedido a hacerlo y creo
 esos subdominios.

1. primero deberías cambiar el password
2. tal vez sea un bugs o es que estas haciendo algo mal.. en via un
mail a soporte (no se si contestan), yo tengo 2 cuentas en freedns y
no me a pasado lo que me dices.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
https://lists.debian.org/CADqxbRSWhNyBbhtp48R95zPBxbYyBEC0zRGi+W1qTwhh7Acv=a...@mail.gmail.com

lxqt

2014-11-04 Thread Ismael L. Donis Garcia


Alguien a probado LXQT en wheezy?

De ser afirmativa la respuesta. Es más o menos estable?

Estoy pensando en la versión 0.8

Desde ya Gracias

| ISMAEL |




--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/b33a3e307e384391a878a47aac10a...@natio.co.cu

Re: OT: Dominios en FreeDNS Afraid

2014-11-04 Thread Roberto Quiñones

El nov 4, 2014 2:39 PM, Juan jawif...@gmail.com escribió:

 Buenas tardes, antes que nada pido disculpas por el OT, pero no se donde
 podría hacer esta consulta y creo que por acá puede haber gente que me
 ayude.

 El problema / duda que tengo es que estoy registrado como usuario en
 Freedns Afraid.org, al consultar los dominios que tengo cargados ene l
 sistema me muestra 3, que son correctos, pero tengo otro adicional que
 no aparece en el listado de dominios, pero si quiero agregarlo, me dice
 que ya está ¿¿?? No se como hacer para poder verlo, recorri todas las
 opciones del panel lateral y no lo encuentro.

1) seguro que no tienes otra cuenta y en ella,  ya tienes asociado el
dominio que no puedes ingresar.

2) si solo tienes una cuenta,  has  pensado que ese dominio antes de ser
tuyo ya era de alguien y que también  lo ocupo en afraid y quedo grabado en
su cuenta y quizás  por eso no puedes asociarlo a tu cuenta.


 Y por otro lado, a pesar de tener una clave larga, que mezcla letras y
 numeros, mayúsculas y minusculas, son ningun sentido logico, veo que dos
 de los dominios tiene creados subdominios que incluso han sido baneados
 por el administrador, y no los puedo borrar. Yo no los cree, se ve que
 han usurpado mi cienta o bien algun bot ha accedido a hacerlo y creo
 esos subdominios.


Cuando ingresaste los dominios a tu cuenta los dejaste como públic o
private?

 Si alguien me puede orientar en estas dos dudas, quedo a la espera de
 sus respuestas. Si consideran que debe ser por fuera de la lista, ya que
 estamos hablando de un OT, no tengo problemas en que me respondan a mi
 cuenta directamente, sin pasar por acá.

 Gracias

 Juan


 --
 To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
 with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact
listmas...@lists.debian.org
 Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54590f51.4010...@gmail.com


Saludos.

Re: ffmpeg

2014-11-04 Thread Ricardo Zúñiga

Ariel, Instale libav-tools y no lo tenia instalado pero aun así sigue dando
el mismo error

Camaleón, También probé no forzando la salida (-f flv), pero el problema es
en la entrada...

# ffmpeg -i /home/ricardo/FrostWire/50.mp4 -acodec copy -vcodec copy -f flv
rtmp://punto_x
ffmpeg version git-2014-10-22-6dc99fd Copyright (c) 2000-2014 the FFmpeg
developers
  built on Nov  3 2014 18:22:32 with gcc 4.7 (Debian 4.7.2-5)
  configuration: --prefix=/opt/ffmpeg --extra-cflags=-I/opt/ffmpeg/include
--extra-ldflags=-L/opt/ffmpeg/lib --extra-libs=-ldl --enable-gpl
--enable-libfaac --enable-libx264 --enable-nonfree
  libavutil  54. 10.100 / 54. 10.100
  libavcodec 56.  9.100 / 56.  9.100
  libavformat56. 10.100 / 56. 10.100
  libavdevice56.  1.100 / 56.  1.100
  libavfilter 5.  2.100 /  5.  2.100
  libswscale  3.  1.101 /  3.  1.101
  libswresample   1.  1.100 /  1.  1.100
  libpostproc53.  3.100 / 53.  3.100
[mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2 @ 0x26dfd20] Format mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2
detected only with low score of 1, misdetection possible!
[mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2 @ 0x26dfd20] moov atom not found
/home/ricardo/FrostWire/50.mp4: Invalid data found when processing input

Saludos

El 4 de noviembre de 2014, 12:17, Camaleón noela...@gmail.com escribió:

 El Mon, 03 Nov 2014 22:23:11 -0300, Ricardo Zúñiga escribió:

  Estoy tratando de hacer streaming vía ffmpeg el problema que tuve es que
  de los repositorios se bajo una versión antigua la cual no soporta mp4,
  3gp y todo formato de celular.

 No creo que sea por un problema de versiones sino debido a la restricción
 de la licencia de los códecs multimedia. Instala el meta-paquete
 libavcodec-extra a ver si te sirve.

 Recuerda que también tienes el paquete en el repo D-M.

  Me baje la versión actual y la compile pero sigue sin soportar estos
  formatos, no se si es porque aun sigue tomándome la versión antigua o
  que...
 
 
  # ffmpeg -i 50.mp4 -acodec copy -vcodec copy -f flv
  punto_de_publicacion_X ffmpeg version git-2014-10-22-6dc99fd Copyright
  (c) 2000-2014 the FFmpeg developers
built on Nov  3 2014 18:22:32 with gcc 4.7 (Debian 4.7.2-5)

 (...)

  [mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2 @ 0x22bad20] Format mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2
  detected only with low score of 1, misdetection possible!
  [mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2 @ 0x22bad20] moov atom not found
 
 
  Quizás vaya por otro lado el problema, espero una ayuda guia ya sea para
  eliminar cualquier rastro de ffmpeg del sistema o para solucionar el
  error.

 ¿Has probado a no forzar el formato del contenedor de salida? Es decir,
 sin el -f flv

 Saludos,

 --
 Camaleón


 --
 To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
 with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact
listmas...@lists.debian.org
 Archive: https://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.11.04.15.17...@gmail.com




--
Atte.
Ricardo G. Zúñiga Bauer
Analista programador
Sitio web: http://ceaerrepe.com.ar
User Linux: #455331

Re: ffmpeg

2014-11-04 Thread Santiago Vila

On Tue, Nov 04, 2014 at 06:26:01PM -0300, Ricardo Zúñiga wrote:
 Ariel, Instale libav-tools y no lo tenia instalado pero aun así sigue dando
 el mismo error
 
 Camaleón, También probé no forzando la salida (-f flv), pero el problema es
 en la entrada...
 
 # ffmpeg -i /home/ricardo/FrostWire/50.mp4 -acodec copy -vcodec copy -f flv 
 [...]
 [...]

A ver. La cosa no está en instalar libav-tools sin más. La cosa está
en usar avconv en vez de ffmpeg.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141104231728.ga16...@cantor.unex.es

Re: ffmpeg

2014-11-04 Thread Ariel

El día 4 de noviembre de 2014, 20:17, Santiago Vila sanv...@unex.es escribió:
 On Tue, Nov 04, 2014 at 06:26:01PM -0300, Ricardo Zúñiga wrote:
 Ariel, Instale libav-tools y no lo tenia instalado pero aun así sigue dando
 el mismo error

 Camaleón, También probé no forzando la salida (-f flv), pero el problema es
 en la entrada...

 # ffmpeg -i /home/ricardo/FrostWire/50.mp4 -acodec copy -vcodec copy -f flv 
 [...]
 [...]

 A ver. La cosa no está en instalar libav-tools sin más. La cosa está
 en usar avconv en vez de ffmpeg.


Tal como dice santiago, que es lo que te había comentado antes, ahora
tienes que usar avconv, avconv es una utilidad dentro de libav-tools.
En tu comando anterior, solo reemplaza ffmpeg, por avconv. Es el mismo
programa en si.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
https://lists.debian.org/CAACM3-5qpyfFwrokgc=2_uwww78Di4uxptn3vrda=kcqh6c...@mail.gmail.com

Re: Error de GPG

2014-11-04 Thread Germán Avendaño Ramírez

El 03/11/14 a las 20:57, Miguel Matos escibió:
 El día 3 de noviembre de 2014, 20:14, Germán Avendaño Ramírez
 gdavenda...@autistici.org escribió:
 Cordial saludo

 Al intentar actualizar, me aparece el siguiente error

 W: Error de GPG: http://security.debian.org wheezy/updates Release: Las
 siguientes firms fueron inválidas: BADSIG 8B48AD6246925553 Debian
 Archive Automatic Signing Key (7.0/wheezy) ftpmas...@debian.org

 y luego me advierte si quiero instalar las actualizaciones sin firmar.
 He dicho que no, mientras busco alguna ayuda.

 --
 Germán Avendaño Ramírez
 Lic. Mat. U.D., M.Sc. U.N.
 Delegado Asamblea ADE
 Delegado VI Congreso Nal CUT
 GNU/Linux user # 531535
 Sent from Debian GNU/Linux 7.7 (wheezy)


 --
 To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
 with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
 Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54582171.30...@autistici.org

 
 ¿Tienes de casualidad crunchbang agregado a los repositorios?
 Acá una ligera ayuda que ofrece Google (en inglés):
 http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=31154
 Pero antes haz un copy a cat /etc/apt/sources.list y pégala acá
 antes de hallar una respuesta.
 

No, estoy en Debian Wheezy, con pocos paquetes de testing y unos pocos
de backports.

-- 
Germán Avendaño Ramírez
Lic. Mat. U.D., M.Sc. U.N.
Delegado Asamblea ADE
Delegado VI Congreso Nal CUT
GNU/Linux user # 531535
Sent from Debian GNU/Linux 7.7 (wheezy)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a62af.2030...@autistici.org

Re: Error de GPG

2014-11-04 Thread Germán Avendaño Ramírez

El 04/11/14 a las 09:58, Camaleón escibió:
 El Mon, 03 Nov 2014 19:44:33 -0500, Germán Avendaño Ramírez escribió:
 
 Cordial saludo

 Al intentar actualizar, me aparece el siguiente error

 W: Error de GPG: http://security.debian.org wheezy/updates Release: Las
 siguientes firms fueron inválidas: BADSIG 8B48AD6246925553 Debian
 Archive Automatic Signing Key (7.0/wheezy) ftpmas...@debian.org

 y luego me advierte si quiero instalar las actualizaciones sin firmar.
 He dicho que no, mientras busco alguna ayuda.
 
 Prueba a usar un servidor espejo¹ diferente para el repo de seguridad. 
 
 Es posible que si tu conexión pasa por un proxy te esté devolviendo un 
 archivo en caché que ya no es válido y cabe la posibilidad de que si 
 fuerzas el cambio de servidor obligues al ISP a que te devuelva uno 
 actualizado.
 
 ¹https://www.debian.org/mirror/list-full
 
 Saludos,
 
Al parecer ya se solucionó, actualicé nuevamente hoy y ya no aparece el
error.

-- 
Germán Avendaño Ramírez
Lic. Mat. U.D., M.Sc. U.N.
Delegado Asamblea ADE
Delegado VI Congreso Nal CUT
GNU/Linux user # 531535
Sent from Debian GNU/Linux 7.7 (wheezy)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-spanish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a637a.10...@autistici.org

Re: Installation utan brandvägg ?

2014-11-04 Thread Anders Jackson

Hej

Den 4 november 2014 00:45 skrev Rolf Edlund rolfew...@gmail.com:
Den 3 november 2014 22:42 skrev Anders Jackson anders.jack...@gmail.com:
Vad är problemet? Alla paket i Debian har en signatur.

Ja, diskussionen är kul med routrar och bakdörrar. Men det är inte
relevant för säker installation av Debian.

Den signaturen kommer från listan över paket, den listan är kryptiskt
signerad med Debians nyckelpar. Så paketlistan är garanterad att
komma från Debian och vara oförändrad. När man laddar ned paket så
tar man checksumma på paketet. Stämmer det inte med det som finns i
paketlista, så installeras det inte (såvida du inte explicit godkänner
det).

Nu vet jag inte vem du svarar här Anders.

Hela listan. Det är en non issue eftersom det går att garantera att
de paket som laddas ned från internet är ursprungligen från Debian.
Så vad någon som lyssnar av din trafik gör, så kan de inte skjuta in
data så att de får in sin version av paketet i din dator.

Som någon annan skrev. Så länge du inte kör någon tjänst som lyssnar
på ingående anrop till den maskin som du installerar på, så behöver du
inte någon brandvägg. Det gör inte installationsprogrammet. Såvida du
inte litar på Debian och vill igång en brandvägg på utgående trafik på
den maskin som du installerar. Men då vet jag inte varför du
överhuvud taget vill använda Debian om du inte litar på
installationsprogrammet.

Så ja, det spelar inte någon roll om det finns någon MiM som kan
förändra innehållet i det data som skickas till din dator, så länge
som du kollar signaturen på det media du installerar Debian från.
Är mediat du installerar från ok, så är Debians signatur korrekt, och
då kan vi kolla paketlistan som kommer från Debian. Har vi den listan
så kan vi kolla checksumman för varje paket och kolla om det stämmer
med listan. Gör den det, så kan vi garantera att paketet ursprungligen
kommer från Debian och är oförändrat. Via MiM, via någon elaking, en
Debian mirror eller direkt från Debian. Men det är rätt paket.

Att skydda datorn från attacker utifrån är ganska enkel. Installera
inte någon tjänst innan en brandvägg är inställd och startad. Kanske
med undantaget för SSH.

Nu blir jag lite förvirrad här. Du menar alltså att man inte alls
behöver någon brandvägg, under tiden man installerar ?

Du behöver inte någon brandvägg när du installerar Debian, så länge
som DU inte installerar något paket som lyssnar på inkommande data,
som en webserver, filserver eller liknande. Vilket en
grundinstallation utan tjänster och grafik inte gör.
När du har installerat och startat om så vill du kanske installerar
mera saker, men då är det bara att installera brandväggen på din
Debian-maskinen, konfigurera och starta den. Sedan så är du skyddad
mot alla ingående attacker på din maskin som du inte medvetet släppt
igenom. Installera nu bara resten av systemet som du vill och öppna
de portar som du vill ha öppna på det sätt du vill ha.

--
/Rolf

/Jackson

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-swedish-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive:
https://lists.debian.org/CACXJ-Bi6hs_d==zw6obshvjci6phcy-oep0fb22r5r9_n3t...@mail.gmail.com

Re: Salt Okunur Diski Biçimlendirme

2014-11-04 Thread Burhan Hanoglu

2014-11-03 18:33 GMT+02:00 Gökhan Öztürk guneyligokhan...@gmail.com:

 Merhaba. Elimde salt okunur 16 Gb boyutunda usb disk var. Salt okunur
 olduğunu düşünüyorum. Çünkü biçimlenlendirmeye çalıştıgımda read only
 hatası verdi ve biçimlendiremedim. Bilgisayarımda debian wheezy var. Usb
 diski taktığımda bilgisayar görmüyor. Ancak KDE Partition Manager programı
 görüyor. Biçimlendirmeyi Gparted programı ile de denedim olmadı. Bunu nasıl
 biçimlendirebilirim.

 mkdosfs -F 32 -I /dev/sdb1 komutununu da denedim.

 ___


Sunu deneyin:

sudo tail -f /var/log/syslog

Sonra diski takin ve ekranda cikan satirlari gonderin.

Saygilar,
Burhan

Re: Salt Okunur Diski Biçimlendirme

2014-11-04 Thread Gökhan Öztürk

Önce komutu verdim. Sonra diski taktım.


gokhan@Asus:~$ su
Parola:
root@Asus:/home/gokhan# tail -f /var/log/syslog
Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.783474] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode Sense:
45 00 80 00
Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.784064] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdb] Write cache:
disabled, read cache: enabled, doesn't support DPO or FUA
Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.789325]  sdb: sdb1
Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.793920] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdb] Attached SCSI
removable disk
Nov  4 21:38:32 Asus wpa_supplicant[3303]: wlan0: WPA: Group rekeying
completed with 00:1c:a8:d4:04:30 [GTK=TKIP]
Nov  4 21:39:02 Asus /USR/SBiN/CRON[9551]: (root) CMD (  [ -x
/usr/lib/php5/maxlifetime ]  [ -x /usr/lib/php5/sessionclean ]  [ -d
/var/lib/php5 ]  /usr/lib/php5/sessionclean /var/lib/php5
$(/usr/lib/php5/maxlifetime))
Nov  4 21:40:56 Asus kernel: [12500.990718] usb 2-1.2: USB disconnect,
device number 6
Nov  4 21:50:24 Asus dhclient: DHCPREQUEST on wlan0 to 192.168.2.1 port 67
Nov  4 21:50:24 Asus dhclient: DHCPACK from 192.168.2.1
Nov  4 21:50:24 Asus dhclient: bound to 192.168.2.249 -- renewal in 1395
seconds.
Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.229442] usb 2-1.2: new high-speed USB
device number 7 using ehci_hcd
Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335461] usb 2-1.2: New USB device
found, idVendor=13fe, idProduct=5200
Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335471] usb 2-1.2: New USB device
strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=3
Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335477] usb 2-1.2: Product: USB Flash
Drive
Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335481] usb 2-1.2: Manufacturer: Philips
Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335485] usb 2-1.2: SerialNumber:
0708334B18196691
Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.336049] scsi8 : usb-storage 2-1.2:1.0
Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus mtp-probe: checking bus 2, device 7:
/sys/devices/pci:00/:00:1d.0/usb2/2-1/2-1.2
Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus mtp-probe: bus: 2, device: 7 was not an MTP device
Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.334324] scsi 8:0:0:0: Direct-Access
Philips  USB Flash Drive  PMAP PQ: 0 ANSI: 6
Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.335889] sd 8:0:0:0: Attached scsi
generic sg2 type 0
Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.336497] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] 30283008
512-byte logical blocks: (15.5 GB/14.4 GiB)
Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.337113] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write Protect
is off
Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.337120] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode Sense:
45 00 00 00
Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.337738] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write cache:
disabled, read cache: enabled, doesn't support DPO or FUA
Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.565957]  sdb: sdb1
Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.567885] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write Protect
is on
Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.567890] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode Sense:
45 00 80 00
Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.568470] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Attached SCSI
removable disk


4 Kasım 2014 21:46 tarihinde Burhan Hanoglu burhano...@gmail.com yazdı:


 2014-11-03 18:33 GMT+02:00 Gökhan Öztürk guneyligokhan...@gmail.com:

 Merhaba. Elimde salt okunur 16 Gb boyutunda usb disk var. Salt okunur
 olduğunu düşünüyorum. Çünkü biçimlenlendirmeye çalıştıgımda read only
 hatası verdi ve biçimlendiremedim. Bilgisayarımda debian wheezy var. Usb
 diski taktığımda bilgisayar görmüyor. Ancak KDE Partition Manager programı
 görüyor. Biçimlendirmeyi Gparted programı ile de denedim olmadı. Bunu nasıl
 biçimlendirebilirim.

 mkdosfs -F 32 -I /dev/sdb1 komutununu da denedim.

 ___


 Sunu deneyin:

 sudo tail -f /var/log/syslog

 Sonra diski takin ve ekranda cikan satirlari gonderin.

 Saygilar,
 Burhan




-- 
___
Gökhan ÖZTÜRK
T.C Mehmet Akif Ersoy Üniversitesi
Gölhisar Meslek Yüksekokulu
Bilgisayar Proğramcılığı Bölümü
Gölhisar / BURDUR / TÜRKİYE

Telefon : +90 549 464 1994

Re: Salt Okunur Diski Biçimlendirme

2014-11-04 Thread Burhan Hanoglu

2014-11-04 22:02 GMT+02:00 Gökhan Öztürk gokhanozt...@gokhanozturk.org:

 Önce komutu verdim. Sonra diski taktım.


 gokhan@Asus:~$ su
 Parola:
 root@Asus:/home/gokhan# tail -f /var/log/syslog
 Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.783474] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode Sense:
 45 00 80 00
 Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.784064] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdb] Write cache:
 disabled, read cache: enabled, doesn't support DPO or FUA
 Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.789325]  sdb: sdb1
 Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.793920] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdb] Attached
 SCSI removable disk
 Nov  4 21:38:32 Asus wpa_supplicant[3303]: wlan0: WPA: Group rekeying
 completed with 00:1c:a8:d4:04:30 [GTK=TKIP]
 Nov  4 21:39:02 Asus /USR/SBiN/CRON[9551]: (root) CMD (  [ -x
 /usr/lib/php5/maxlifetime ]  [ -x /usr/lib/php5/sessionclean ]  [ -d
 /var/lib/php5 ]  /usr/lib/php5/sessionclean /var/lib/php5
 $(/usr/lib/php5/maxlifetime))
 Nov  4 21:40:56 Asus kernel: [12500.990718] usb 2-1.2: USB disconnect,
 device number 6
 Nov  4 21:50:24 Asus dhclient: DHCPREQUEST on wlan0 to 192.168.2.1 port 67
 Nov  4 21:50:24 Asus dhclient: DHCPACK from 192.168.2.1
 Nov  4 21:50:24 Asus dhclient: bound to 192.168.2.249 -- renewal in 1395
 seconds.
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.229442] usb 2-1.2: new high-speed USB
 device number 7 using ehci_hcd
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335461] usb 2-1.2: New USB device
 found, idVendor=13fe, idProduct=5200
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335471] usb 2-1.2: New USB device
 strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=3
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335477] usb 2-1.2: Product: USB Flash
 Drive
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335481] usb 2-1.2: Manufacturer:
 Philips
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335485] usb 2-1.2: SerialNumber:
 0708334B18196691
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.336049] scsi8 : usb-storage 2-1.2:1.0
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus mtp-probe: checking bus 2, device 7:
 /sys/devices/pci:00/:00:1d.0/usb2/2-1/2-1.2
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus mtp-probe: bus: 2, device: 7 was not an MTP device
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.334324] scsi 8:0:0:0:
 Direct-Access Philips  USB Flash Drive  PMAP PQ: 0 ANSI: 6
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.335889] sd 8:0:0:0: Attached scsi
 generic sg2 type 0
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.336497] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] 30283008
 512-byte logical blocks: (15.5 GB/14.4 GiB)
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.337113] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write
 Protect is off
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.337120] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode Sense:
 45 00 00 00
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.337738] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write cache:
 disabled, read cache: enabled, doesn't support DPO or FUA
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.565957]  sdb: sdb1
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.567885] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write
 Protect is on
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.567890] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode Sense:
 45 00 80 00
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.568470] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Attached
 SCSI removable disk



Diskiniz yazma korumali:

Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.567885] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write Protect
is on

Sunu deneyebilirsiniz:

sudo hdparm -r0 /dev/sdb

Ayrica diskiniz bozuk olabilir ya da ozel bir yazilimla yazma korumasi
etkinlestirilmis olabilir.

Saygilar,

Burhan

Re: Salt Okunur Diski Biçimlendirme

2014-11-04 Thread Gökhan Öztürk

hdparm -r0 /dev/sdb komutu verdikten sonra biçimlendirmeyi denedim
olmadı. r1 olarakta denedim.

Sanırım diskim çöp oldu. Yardımlar için tesekkür ederim.


2014-11-04 22:19 GMT+02:00 Burhan Hanoglu burhano...@gmail.com:


 2014-11-04 22:02 GMT+02:00 Gökhan Öztürk gokhanozt...@gokhanozturk.org:

 Önce komutu verdim. Sonra diski taktım.


 gokhan@Asus:~$ su
 Parola:
 root@Asus:/home/gokhan# tail -f /var/log/syslog
 Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.783474] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode Sense:
 45 00 80 00
 Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.784064] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdb] Write
 cache: disabled, read cache: enabled, doesn't support DPO or FUA
 Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.789325]  sdb: sdb1
 Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.793920] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdb] Attached
 SCSI removable disk
 Nov  4 21:38:32 Asus wpa_supplicant[3303]: wlan0: WPA: Group rekeying
 completed with 00:1c:a8:d4:04:30 [GTK=TKIP]
 Nov  4 21:39:02 Asus /USR/SBiN/CRON[9551]: (root) CMD (  [ -x
 /usr/lib/php5/maxlifetime ]  [ -x /usr/lib/php5/sessionclean ]  [ -d
 /var/lib/php5 ]  /usr/lib/php5/sessionclean /var/lib/php5
 $(/usr/lib/php5/maxlifetime))
 Nov  4 21:40:56 Asus kernel: [12500.990718] usb 2-1.2: USB disconnect,
 device number 6
 Nov  4 21:50:24 Asus dhclient: DHCPREQUEST on wlan0 to 192.168.2.1 port 67
 Nov  4 21:50:24 Asus dhclient: DHCPACK from 192.168.2.1
 Nov  4 21:50:24 Asus dhclient: bound to 192.168.2.249 -- renewal in 1395
 seconds.
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.229442] usb 2-1.2: new high-speed USB
 device number 7 using ehci_hcd
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335461] usb 2-1.2: New USB device
 found, idVendor=13fe, idProduct=5200
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335471] usb 2-1.2: New USB device
 strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=3
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335477] usb 2-1.2: Product: USB Flash
 Drive
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335481] usb 2-1.2: Manufacturer:
 Philips
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335485] usb 2-1.2: SerialNumber:
 0708334B18196691
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.336049] scsi8 : usb-storage 2-1.2:1.0
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus mtp-probe: checking bus 2, device 7:
 /sys/devices/pci:00/:00:1d.0/usb2/2-1/2-1.2
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus mtp-probe: bus: 2, device: 7 was not an MTP device
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.334324] scsi 8:0:0:0:
 Direct-Access Philips  USB Flash Drive  PMAP PQ: 0 ANSI: 6
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.335889] sd 8:0:0:0: Attached scsi
 generic sg2 type 0
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.336497] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] 30283008
 512-byte logical blocks: (15.5 GB/14.4 GiB)
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.337113] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write
 Protect is off
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.337120] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode Sense:
 45 00 00 00
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.337738] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write
 cache: disabled, read cache: enabled, doesn't support DPO or FUA
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.565957]  sdb: sdb1
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.567885] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write
 Protect is on
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.567890] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode Sense:
 45 00 80 00
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.568470] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Attached
 SCSI removable disk



 Diskiniz yazma korumali:

 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.567885] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write
 Protect is on

 Sunu deneyebilirsiniz:

 sudo hdparm -r0 /dev/sdb

 Ayrica diskiniz bozuk olabilir ya da ozel bir yazilimla yazma korumasi 
 etkinlestirilmis olabilir.

 Saygilar,

 Burhan






-- 
___
Gökhan ÖZTÜRK
T.C Mehmet Akif Ersoy Üniversitesi
Gölhisar Meslek Yüksekokulu
Bilgisayar Proğramcılığı Bölümü
Gölhisar / BURDUR / TÜRKİYE

Telefon : +90 549 464 1994

Re: Salt Okunur Diski Biçimlendirme

2014-11-04 Thread yoklar

Gparted programini kullanirken usb diskinizi ilk once umount etmeyi
denediniz mi? umount tan sonra format atabilirsiniz belki??

On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 10:25 PM, Gökhan Öztürk 
gokhanozt...@gokhanozturk.org wrote:

 hdparm -r0 /dev/sdb komutu verdikten sonra biçimlendirmeyi denedim olmadı. r1 
 olarakta denedim.

 Sanırım diskim çöp oldu. Yardımlar için tesekkür ederim.


 2014-11-04 22:19 GMT+02:00 Burhan Hanoglu burhano...@gmail.com:


 2014-11-04 22:02 GMT+02:00 Gökhan Öztürk gokhanozt...@gokhanozturk.org:

 Önce komutu verdim. Sonra diski taktım.


 gokhan@Asus:~$ su
 Parola:
 root@Asus:/home/gokhan# tail -f /var/log/syslog
 Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.783474] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode
 Sense: 45 00 80 00
 Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.784064] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdb] Write
 cache: disabled, read cache: enabled, doesn't support DPO or FUA
 Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.789325]  sdb: sdb1
 Nov  4 21:37:26 Asus kernel: [12291.793920] sd 7:0:0:0: [sdb] Attached
 SCSI removable disk
 Nov  4 21:38:32 Asus wpa_supplicant[3303]: wlan0: WPA: Group rekeying
 completed with 00:1c:a8:d4:04:30 [GTK=TKIP]
 Nov  4 21:39:02 Asus /USR/SBiN/CRON[9551]: (root) CMD (  [ -x
 /usr/lib/php5/maxlifetime ]  [ -x /usr/lib/php5/sessionclean ]  [ -d
 /var/lib/php5 ]  /usr/lib/php5/sessionclean /var/lib/php5
 $(/usr/lib/php5/maxlifetime))
 Nov  4 21:40:56 Asus kernel: [12500.990718] usb 2-1.2: USB disconnect,
 device number 6
 Nov  4 21:50:24 Asus dhclient: DHCPREQUEST on wlan0 to 192.168.2.1 port
 67
 Nov  4 21:50:24 Asus dhclient: DHCPACK from 192.168.2.1
 Nov  4 21:50:24 Asus dhclient: bound to 192.168.2.249 -- renewal in 1395
 seconds.
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.229442] usb 2-1.2: new high-speed
 USB device number 7 using ehci_hcd
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335461] usb 2-1.2: New USB device
 found, idVendor=13fe, idProduct=5200
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335471] usb 2-1.2: New USB device
 strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=3
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335477] usb 2-1.2: Product: USB
 Flash Drive
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335481] usb 2-1.2: Manufacturer:
 Philips
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.335485] usb 2-1.2: SerialNumber:
 0708334B18196691
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus kernel: [13695.336049] scsi8 : usb-storage 2-1.2:1.0
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus mtp-probe: checking bus 2, device 7:
 /sys/devices/pci:00/:00:1d.0/usb2/2-1/2-1.2
 Nov  4 22:00:51 Asus mtp-probe: bus: 2, device: 7 was not an MTP device
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.334324] scsi 8:0:0:0:
 Direct-Access Philips  USB Flash Drive  PMAP PQ: 0 ANSI: 6
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.335889] sd 8:0:0:0: Attached scsi
 generic sg2 type 0
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.336497] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] 30283008
 512-byte logical blocks: (15.5 GB/14.4 GiB)
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.337113] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write
 Protect is off
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.337120] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode
 Sense: 45 00 00 00
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.337738] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write
 cache: disabled, read cache: enabled, doesn't support DPO or FUA
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.565957]  sdb: sdb1
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.567885] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write
 Protect is on
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.567890] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode
 Sense: 45 00 80 00
 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.568470] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Attached
 SCSI removable disk



 Diskiniz yazma korumali:

 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.567885] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write
 Protect is on

 Sunu deneyebilirsiniz:

 sudo hdparm -r0 /dev/sdb

 Ayrica diskiniz bozuk olabilir ya da ozel bir yazilimla yazma korumasi 
 etkinlestirilmis olabilir.

 Saygilar,

 Burhan






 --

 ___
 Gökhan ÖZTÜRK
 T.C Mehmet Akif Ersoy Üniversitesi
 Gölhisar Meslek Yüksekokulu
 Bilgisayar Proğramcılığı Bölümü
 Gölhisar / BURDUR / TÜRKİYE

 Telefon : +90 549 464 1994




-- 
her sey akar..

Re: Salt Okunur Diski Biçimlendirme

2014-11-04 Thread Gökşin Akdeniz

Tue, 4 Nov 2014 22:02:03 +0200 tarihinde
Gökhan Öztürk gokhanozt...@gokhanozturk.org yazmış:

 Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.567885] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write
 Protect is on


Kullandığınız usb disk salt okunur olarak bağlanıyor. Dolayısıyla da
yazmak söz konusu olmuyor. Diskin üzerindeki dosya sistemini root
olarak dd kullanarak silmeyi deniyin. Sonra da yeni dosya sistemi
oluşturmayı deneyebilirsiniz. Eğer root olarak bu işlemleri
yapamıyorsanız donanım sorunu olabilir.

-- 
Gökşin Akdeniz goksin.akde...@gmail.com


pgpReFwMLVxMA.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Salt Okunur Diski Biçimlendirme

2014-11-04 Thread Gökhan Öztürk

root@Asus:/home/gokhan# *dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sdb*
dd: `/dev/sdb' açılıyor: Salt-okunur dosya sistemi
root@Asus:/home/gokhan# *dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb*
dd: `/dev/sdb' açılıyor: Salt-okunur dosya sistemi
root@Asus:/home/gokhan#


4 Kasım 2014 22:29 tarihinde Gökşin Akdeniz goksin.akde...@gmail.com
yazdı:

 Tue, 4 Nov 2014 22:02:03 +0200 tarihinde
 Gökhan Öztürk gokhanozt...@gokhanozturk.org yazmış:

  Nov  4 22:00:52 Asus kernel: [13696.567885] sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Write
  Protect is on


 Kullandığınız usb disk salt okunur olarak bağlanıyor. Dolayısıyla da
 yazmak söz konusu olmuyor. Diskin üzerindeki dosya sistemini root
 olarak dd kullanarak silmeyi deniyin. Sonra da yeni dosya sistemi
 oluşturmayı deneyebilirsiniz. Eğer root olarak bu işlemleri
 yapamıyorsanız donanım sorunu olabilir.

 --
 Gökşin Akdeniz goksin.akde...@gmail.com




-- 
___
Gökhan ÖZTÜRK
T.C Mehmet Akif Ersoy Üniversitesi
Gölhisar Meslek Yüksekokulu
Bilgisayar Proğramcılığı Bölümü
Gölhisar / BURDUR / TÜRKİYE

Telefon : +90 549 464 1994

Re: Browser font size selection for printer -- SOLVED, but I'd llike to understand.

2014-11-04 Thread Hendrik Boom

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 03:02:03 +, Hendrik Boom wrote:

 I cannot get chrome or chromium (or Iceweaasel either) to print a web
 page in a twelve-point font on my laser printer.  It insists on using a
 font that's about twice the size.

Well, let me apologize for even posting that question.  I got it to 
produce smaller output by asking for a font-size of 6pt.  So it is 
recognizing the css for the printer after all -- it's just that the 12-
point font my printer produces is rather bigger than what I'm used to 
calling twelve-point.

I get about 54 lines to the page, measured top edge to bottom edge of an 
standard 11-inch page.  With 72 = 6x12 points to the inch, I'd expect to 
get 6 lines to the inch, giving me 66 lines altogether.  I suspect I'm 
ignoring details like the space between lines.

Evidently I could still learn a few things about typography.  Can anyone 
suggest a good online reference?

-- hendrik


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/m3a75p$n4j$1...@ger.gmane.org

Re: Camera SD card mounting problems (defined by systemd)

2014-11-04 Thread Andrei POPESCU

On Lu, 03 nov 14, 22:20:51, Charles Kroeger wrote:
 
 Thanks Eric, you can learn a lot of useful stuff on this list if you just keep
 poking it. Say something wrong get a clarification. That's good.

https://xkcd.com/386/

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers:
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic
http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Need URGENT help : how to connect cable modem

2014-11-04 Thread berenger . morel




Le 04.11.2014 07:11, Long Wind a écrit :

the ISP connect me using cable modem

Now in Windows XP I need to enter user/password to connect
the connection is PPPoE
how to do that in Linux

Thanks!!!


Please, read this.
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You might then have more replies, and more useful ones.

Because, when I see a mail like yours, I simply want to say: go use 
RedHat Linux Edition. I hear that they have a paid support, for urgent 
problems.
Here, there is only a bunch of people trying to help as best as they 
can, without being paid for that. So, they do not really feel concerned 
by the fact you do not seem to have searched a solution, they will 
probably not try to guess what you tried, and they will very probably 
not be concerned about your... emergency.



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
https://lists.debian.org/9cc3db8cd4c6fc6394b5a477c5295...@neutralite.org

Re: umask has no man page?

2014-11-04 Thread berenger . morel




Le 03.11.2014 04:30, Joe Pfeiffer a écrit :

Carl Fink c...@finknetwork.com writes:

When I wanted the options for umask, I typed 'man umask' and got the 
man
page for it as a C header diretive? (I'm not a C programmer, but it 
seemed

to be for C header files and came from section 2.)

This is darn confusing for a new user. I have been around long 
enough
(slink) that I quickly realized it must be a Bash builtin and found 
that man
page, but how would a beginner know that? Surely a symbolic link 
could be

set up for umask as well as the others (bg, eval, fg, read, etc.)?

Should I file this as a bug against Sid? I know there's no chance it 
will

make it into Wheezy.


The underlying problem is that umask isn't a standalone command, it's 
a

shell builtin.  So if you look at the bash manpage you can find the
(very terse) documention; of course, there's no hint anywhere that 
you

should do that.  Just as for (looking at some other builtins) ulimit,
unalias, unset


I already fell into that kind of problems. It is quite frustrating when 
you are trying to learn, to have to go on Internet to do a whatever 
search on man something.
On this present topic, I have learn various commands (which is good) 
and I am wondering if, finally, help, man and info should not be 
considered as low level functions.

I do not think the beginner expects to have to run something like this:
$ cmd=man;apropos $cmd 2/dev/null  man $cmd || help $cmd

Plus, this won't work as nicely as it might be expected, since help 
$cmd won't be very informative.


Of course, one could use info $(basename $SHELL) instead, but then he 
would have to search for the exact part of the info manual, which is 
(imho):
_ not trivial (ok, it is probably because I do not know how emacs 
works, I guess info is more emacs-like, when less is closer to vi, with 
which I am more familiar)
_ inefficient: seriously, why does not it uses the complete width of 
the termninal? I *have* to print 3 info pages side-by-side to use my 
screen efficiently when I read documentation. Plus, if for some reason, 
I have to have a smaller terminal window, then it become simply 
unreadable! And those points are not only true in a terminal-emulator.



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
https://lists.debian.org/422a67716f16d677ecc5bf28c182f...@neutralite.org

Re: Need URGENT help : how to connect cable modem

2014-11-04 Thread Long Wind

Thank berenger.mo...@neutralite.org !!!
I have solved the problem on my own
(All I need to do is install a few Debian packages)


On 11/4/14, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:



 Please, read this.
 http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

 You might then have more replies, and more useful ones.

 Because, when I see a mail like yours, I simply want to say: go use
 RedHat Linux Edition. I hear that they have a paid support, for urgent
 problems.
 Here, there is only a bunch of people trying to help as best as they
 can, without being paid for that. So, they do not really feel concerned
 by the fact you do not seem to have searched a solution, they will
 probably not try to guess what you tried, and they will very probably
 not be concerned about your... emergency.


 --
 To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
 with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact
 listmas...@lists.debian.org
 Archive:
 https://lists.debian.org/9cc3db8cd4c6fc6394b5a477c5295...@neutralite.org




-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
https://lists.debian.org/cab-gxzdzlk5arh-_pktr6svpbrgv9h3c07z0rlsf-bifjkk...@mail.gmail.com

Re: /sys readonly with backports kernel 3.16

2014-11-04 Thread Reco

 Hi.

On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 19:34:05 +0100
Dennis Birkholz debian-u...@lists.nexxes.org wrote:

 My /etc/fstab-file does not contain an entry for /sys at all.
 
 Mounts says:
 sysfs on /sys type sysfs (ro,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime)
 
 If I unmount /sys and mount it new with:
 mount -t sysfs -o rw,relatime,noexec,nodev,nosuid sysfs /sys/
 I get:
 mount: warning: /sys/ seems to be mounted read-only.
 and the same mount-line appears.
 
 I will try to update the whole system with stuff from backports, maybe
 it is a system lib that causes the problems. I just installed the kernel
 from backports.

That's should not be needed. The way I see it you'll need to install
initramfs-tools from the backports too, but that's it.

Reco


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
https://lists.debian.org/20141104140130.9fc44f7930d36c2e1d0ad...@gmail.com

Re: Won't boot after fresh install.

2014-11-04 Thread Darac Marjal

On Mon, Nov 03, 2014 at 07:26:32PM -0500, Ryan Larrowe wrote:
 I have just installed the b2 release of Debian testing.  I have a uefi
 motherboard.  I made a 200MB partition for the efi boot.  I did not set a
 mount point for it.  I get an error from grub that says:
 error: unknown filesystem

In that case, it's probably not formatted.

As you've only just installed, go back through the installer, but this
time format the 200MB partition as fat32 (possibly called vfat) and
tell the installer to use it as /boot/efi. If you've booted the
installer disk in UEFI mode, then it should also choose grub-efi-{arch}
as the bootloader.

 
 Ryan
 
 
 -- 
 To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject
 of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
 Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54581d38.8000...@gmail.com
 


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: APT: Failed to fetch cdrom://[Debian...

2014-11-04 Thread Darac Marjal

On Tue, Nov 04, 2014 at 09:14:04AM +0100, Marko Ranđelović wrote:
 I use Wheezy and I use DVD 1 in APT and http as well. DVD *is* working, but 
 whenever I do 'apt-get update', I get and error:
 
 Ign cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 CD Binary-1 
 20141018-13:06] wheezy Release.gpg
 Ign cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 CD Binary-1 
 20141018-13:06] wheezy Release
 Ign cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 CD Binary-1 
 20141018-13:06] wheezy/main amd64 Packages/DiffIndex
 Err cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 CD Binary-1 
 20141018-13:06] wheezy/main i386 Packages
   Please use apt-cdrom to make this CD-ROM recognized by APT. apt-get update 
 cannot be used to add new CD-ROMs

Have you tried this suggestion? If so, were there any error  messages
from apt-cdrom?

 Ign cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 CD Binary-1 
 20141018-13:06] wheezy/main Translation-en_US
 [...]
 Fetched 18.7 MB in 38s (487 kB/s) 

 W: Failed to fetch cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 
 CD Binary-1 20141018-13:06]/dists/wheezy/main/binary-i386/Packages  Please 
 use apt-cdrom to make this CD-ROM recognized by APT. apt-get update cannot be 
 used to add new CD-ROMs
 
 E: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones 
 used instead.
 
 It's disturbing and it's the only way I want to eliminate this error messages.
 
 Kind regards
 
 -- 
 http://markorandjelovic.hopto.org
 
 One should not be afraid of humans.
 Well, I am not afraid of humans, but of what is inhuman in them.
 Ivo Andric, Signs near the travel-road
 
 
 -- 
 To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
 with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
 Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141104081404.GA3751@debian
 


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Kernel crash 3.17.2 unable to use kvm

2014-11-04 Thread Florent Peterschmitt

Le 03/11/2014 17:03, Bhasker C V a écrit :
 Hi,
 
  I tried to compile the latest kernel 3.17.2 and when loading
 kvm_intel, the kernel crashes (not catastrophically but as below) and
 kvm_intel never works.
 The old kernel 3.14.x works fine but I dont want to use an older
 kernel as a solution to the current issue.
 
 Can somebody help to tell me if this is an environment issue or a real
 kernel bug ?
 This is a DELL D620 with core2duo T5520 (vmx enabled)
 Thanks
 
 ---
 
 [  349.007575] general protection fault:  [#1] SMP
[snip]
 

You have a 3.17 kernel config based on a previous working kernel
version, or you made it from scratch?



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: terminal spreadsheet - sc fork

2014-11-04 Thread berenger . morel




Le 30.10.2014 23:23, Andrés Martinelli a écrit :

Hello there!!
I am working on a terminal spreadsheet based on sc, but with some
adds like undo/redo..

you can find it here:

https://github.com/andmarti1424/scim [1]

Any new ideas and/or contribution is always welcome!

Thanks!


Sounds like an interesting idea.
What formats is it able to use, currently? I'll watch that project 
closely, since I am very interested by every program which could allow 
me to be efficient without a mouse.


Also, I have noticed a crash at exit, file history.c, line 108, 
segfault. It seems it happens at other times, too.
It's quit easy to fix: just check that nl-pnext is not null before 
assigning NULL to nl-pnext-pant. Now, that's the quick fix, it will 
solve the crash, but maybe not the real bug (I imagine that this linked 
list does something... but I can't guess what in less than 5 minutes.)


Have fun!


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
https://lists.debian.org/31be81241f40cc4af111621e5532a...@neutralite.org

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

2014-11-04 Thread Peter Nieman


On 04/11/14 03:53, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 11/3/2014 8:36 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
snip

I suppose it may be polemic to assert that forking debian and setting up
a new community would be labor-intensive, fractious, divisive, and
general not a wise use of precious free/libre/open community resources,
in short, dumb.



But just the fact there are people who consider systemd to be
problematic enough to consider forking Debian should not be ignored.

I agree it would be labor-intensive, fractious and divisive.  However,
if the people feel it is that important, I think it would be a wise use
of community resources.


Forking often makes things worse (classical example: libav) and it 
should always be the last resort. But when two entirely different 
philosophies exist inside a project and the two parts of a whole start 
moving in opposite directions and keep doing so for some time it might 
be a natural and perhaps the only sensible thing to do, and in that case 
I would call it dumb to simply call people suggesting a fork dumb.


In Debian we have two different groups of people with entirely different 
visions. One that tries to stick to the traditional Linux (or Unix) 
way of doing things and one that tries to create something that I would 
call a copy of MS Windows, something that the first group ran away from. 
The latter group is backed by powerful commercial companies and paid 
developers, which brings the first group into a situation where it 
increasingly feels compelled to fight in order not to lose what it has 
learned to love. That's my experience with Debian over the last few 
years at least.


Now, my impression is that some people advocating things like Gnome and 
systemd here are so much experts and concerned with technical details 
that they fail to see the overall picture and the fundamental 
differences. They essentially ask the critics (of systemd in this case) 
to just give in unless they have precise technical problems, in which 
case they should start coding or at least report these problems because 
they can all be solved, and in the end everyone can reasonably be 
expected to be happy. I guess these people would also deny that Gnome is 
intransparent and that it resembles MS Windows, because everyone can 
look at the code, after all.


But to the user, things look quite different. Even if the user hasn't 
consciously installed anything like Gnome, he will see that more and 
more things are happening on his computer that he doesn't want and 
doesn't understand, and that he has to spend more and more time looking 
for ways to understand things, disable things and restore the way things 
were done before, if that is still possible at all. And when he digs 
deep enough he will often find that the reason why something has changed 
for the worse is that it's the Gnome way.


So to my mind the fundamental question is if you want to keep control of 
your computer or if you prefer eye candy and things happening 
automagically. And there is no middle way (only extremist ones).


And to the people who have no problem with the way things are going 
right now I would say: there's a perfect OS for you already, and it's 
called Microsoft Windows 7.



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: https://lists.debian.org/m3annl$3u7$1...@ger.gmane.org

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...


Peter Nieman wrote:

On 04/11/14 03:53, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 11/3/2014 8:36 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
snip
I suppose it may be polemic to assert that forking debian and 
setting up

a new community would be labor-intensive, fractious, divisive, and
general not a wise use of precious free/libre/open community resources,
in short, dumb.



But just the fact there are people who consider systemd to be
problematic enough to consider forking Debian should not be ignored.


I very much agree with this sentiment - any good designer should take a 
high level of negative feedback as a sign to at least take a pause for 
review.  That the systemd proponents have not, is, in itself cause for 
concern.




I agree it would be labor-intensive, fractious and divisive. However,
if the people feel it is that important, I think it would be a wise use
of community resources.


Forking often makes things worse (classical example: libav) and it 
should always be the last resort. But when two entirely different 
philosophies exist inside a project and the two parts of a whole 
start moving in opposite directions and keep doing so for some time it 
might be a natural and perhaps the only sensible thing to do, and in 
that case I would call it dumb to simply call people suggesting a 
fork dumb.


Well said.



In Debian we have two different groups of people with entirely 
different visions. One that tries to stick to the traditional Linux 
(or Unix) way of doing things and one that tries to create something 
that I would call a copy of MS Windows, something that the first group 
ran away from. The latter group is backed by powerful commercial 
companies and paid developers, which brings the first group into a 
situation where it increasingly feels compelled to fight in order not 
to lose what it has learned to love. That's my experience with Debian 
over the last few years at least.


Now, my impression is that some people advocating things like Gnome 
and systemd here are so much experts and concerned with technical 
details that they fail to see the overall picture and the fundamental 
differences. They essentially ask the critics (of systemd in this 
case) to just give in unless they have precise technical problems, in 
which case they should start coding or at least report these problems 
because they can all be solved, and in the end everyone can reasonably 
be expected to be happy. I guess these people would also deny that 
Gnome is intransparent and that it resembles MS Windows, because 
everyone can look at the code, after all.


But to the user, things look quite different. Even if the user hasn't 
consciously installed anything like Gnome, he will see that more and 
more things are happening on his computer that he doesn't want and 
doesn't understand, and that he has to spend more and more time 
looking for ways to understand things, disable things and restore the 
way things were done before, if that is still possible at all. And 
when he digs deep enough he will often find that the reason why 
something has changed for the worse is that it's the Gnome way.




I don't think it's quite accurate to characterize this as a clash 
between experts and users.  There are plenty of experts who are 
dead set against systemd - for reasons of design philosophy and/or 
impact on the configuration and administration of server-side systems.



So to my mind the fundamental question is if you want to keep control 
of your computer or if you prefer eye candy and things happening 
automagically. And there is no middle way (only extremist ones).


And to the people who have no problem with the way things are going 
right now I would say: there's a perfect OS for you already, and it's 
called Microsoft Windows 7.





Again.  Well said.

Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5458e74f.40...@meetinghouse.net

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

2014-11-04 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Tuesday 04 November 2014 14:22:32 Peter Nieman wrote:
 And to the people who have no problem with the way things are going
 right now I would say: there's a perfect OS for you already, and it's
 called Microsoft Windows 7.

And for you lot there is Linux From Scratch.

Lisi


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201411041529.53426.lisi.re...@gmail.com

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 01:29:52 +,
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard j.deboynepollard-newsgro...@ntlworld.com a
écrit :

Laurent Bigonville:
The systemd umbrella project is made of 10+ different executables
that have all a specific scope (systemd PID1 used to manage the
life cycles of the daemons, systemd-logind manage the user
sessions, systemd-journald a logging system,...) and that are all
communicating using well defined, stable and documented dbus
interfaces that allow one to reimplement the functionalities as
long as it exposes the same interfaces (ie. this is what
systemd-shim is doing).

Not correct. The systemd process D-Bus API is not stable and not
covered by the interface guarantee. It's exactly this that is part
of the hoo-hah and part of the problem with systemd-shim over the
past year or so.

*
http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/debian-systemd-packaging-hoo-hah.html

These are the internal API if I'm not wrong. The external ones are
stable as explained:

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/InterfacePortabilityAndStabilityChart/
http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/InterfaceStabilityPromise/

But indeed you are correct, systemd PID1 and logind are tightly coupled
(the Reimplementable Independently column) and a project trying to
reimplement only one of them will have to play catch and run with
upstream. But this is NOT preventing to have reimplementations at all
as the external API used by 3rd party are stable. systemd is not alone
when providing stable external API and unstable internal ones.

Also note that this is not a huge issue for distribution like debian
that provides frozen in time stable release as we have a way to
synchronize the version (this is the job of a distribution) shipped to
our users.

Well at least this is my understanding of the matter.

Laurent Bigonville

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141104165653.4df3a...@soldur.bigon.be

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

2014-11-04 Thread latincom

On Tuesday 04 November 2014 14:22:32 Peter Nieman wrote:
 And to the people who have no problem with the way things are going
 right now I would say: there's a perfect OS for you already, and it's
 called Microsoft Windows 7.

And for you lot there is Linux From Scratch.

Lisi

The question is: Who must go away? People who have been destroying Debian,
adding thing like SEwindows, Grub, ACLs, Systemd; and many other things
like this; or the people who have been taking care of Debian. Remember
that Debian is not of the actual DDs or DMs.



-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
https://lists.debian.org/9c32b0134389201bba03844fde093a30.squir...@mail.vcn.bc.ca

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

2014-11-04 Thread John Hasler

latin...@vcn.bc.ca writes:
 Remember that Debian is not of the actual DDs or DMs.

Debian is an organization of around 1000 DDs and DMs.  If you are not
one of them you are not part of Debian.  However, the OS published by
the Debian organization (also called Debian) is Free Software so you are
free to copy it and create your own organization and publish your own
version with whatever changes and/or improvements you see fit.  Please
do so and quit whining about how the DDs choose to expend their own time
and resources.  They *are* interested in what users want and need.  They
*are not* interested in what users demand.  Do you understand the
difference?

I dislike Systemd (and many other recent changes) and I would prefer
that Debian avoid it to the extent possible.  However as I am no longer
a DD I have no say in what Debian does and I have no grounds to complain
when they do what I prefer that they did not do.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/878ujqswtb@thumper.dhh.gt.org

Re: APT: Failed to fetch cdrom://[Debian...

2014-11-04 Thread Marko Randjelovic

On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 11:49:47 +
Darac Marjal mailingl...@darac.org.uk wrote:

 On Tue, Nov 04, 2014 at 09:14:04AM +0100, Marko Ranđelović wrote:
  I use Wheezy and I use DVD 1 in APT and http as well. DVD *is* working, but 
  whenever I do 'apt-get update', I get and error:
  
  Ign cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 CD Binary-1 
  20141018-13:06] wheezy Release.gpg
  Ign cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 CD Binary-1 
  20141018-13:06] wheezy Release
  Ign cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 CD Binary-1 
  20141018-13:06] wheezy/main amd64 Packages/DiffIndex
  Err cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 CD Binary-1 
  20141018-13:06] wheezy/main i386 Packages
Please use apt-cdrom to make this CD-ROM recognized by APT. apt-get 
  update cannot be used to add new CD-ROMs
 
 Have you tried this suggestion?

Yes, I did.

 If so, were there any error  messages
 from apt-cdrom?

No, there were not.

Previously, I was using DVD 7.5.0 and the same problem was present.
Checksums was correct and 7.7.0 was made from it with jigdo.

Kind regards 


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: APT: Failed to fetch cdrom://[Debian...

2014-11-04 Thread Marko Randjelovic

On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 09:14:04 +0100
Marko Ranđelović marko...@eunet.rs wrote:

 I use Wheezy and I use DVD 1 in APT and http as well. DVD *is* working, but 
 whenever I do 'apt-get update', I get and error:
 
 Ign cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 CD Binary-1 
 20141018-13:06] wheezy Release.gpg
 Ign cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 CD Binary-1 
 20141018-13:06] wheezy Release
 Ign cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 CD Binary-1 
 20141018-13:06] wheezy/main amd64 Packages/DiffIndex
 Err cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 CD Binary-1 
 20141018-13:06] wheezy/main i386 Packages
   Please use apt-cdrom to make this CD-ROM recognized by APT. apt-get update 
 cannot be used to add new CD-ROMs
 Ign cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 CD Binary-1 
 20141018-13:06] wheezy/main Translation-en_US
 [...]
 Fetched 18.7 MB in 38s (487 kB/s) 

 W: Failed to fetch cdrom://[Debian GNU/Linux 7.7.0 _Wheezy_ - Official amd64 
 CD Binary-1 20141018-13:06]/dists/wheezy/main/binary-i386/Packages  Please 
 use apt-cdrom to make this CD-ROM recognized by APT. apt-get update cannot be 
 used to add new CD-ROMs
 
 E: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones 
 used instead.
 
 It's disturbing and it's the only way I want to eliminate this error messages.
 
 Kind regards
 

Obviously, it's CD1 not DVD, but anyway I don't see why the error and
the same error was with DVD1 7.5.0.

Kind regards

-- 
http://markorandjelovic.hopto.org

One should not be afraid of humans.
Well, I am not afraid of humans, but of what is inhuman in them.
Ivo Andric, Signs near the travel-road


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141104194815.1d496...@sbb.rs

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 15:22:32 +0100,
Peter Nieman gmane-a...@t-online.de a écrit :

 On 04/11/14 03:53, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
  On 11/3/2014 8:36 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
  snip
  I suppose it may be polemic to assert that forking debian and
  setting up a new community would be labor-intensive, fractious,
  divisive, and general not a wise use of precious free/libre/open
  community resources, in short, dumb.
 
 
  But just the fact there are people who consider systemd to be
  problematic enough to consider forking Debian should not be ignored.
 
  I agree it would be labor-intensive, fractious and divisive.
  However, if the people feel it is that important, I think it would
  be a wise use of community resources.
 
 Forking often makes things worse (classical example: libav) and it 
 should always be the last resort. But when two entirely different 
 philosophies exist inside a project and the two parts of a whole
 start moving in opposite directions and keep doing so for some time
 it might be a natural and perhaps the only sensible thing to do, and
 in that case I would call it dumb to simply call people suggesting
 a fork dumb.

That probably the only part of your mail that I'll agree with you.

Using the threat of forking to make people change their mind or change
a policy that has been decided by the project (the CTTE has been
delegated by the project the power to take such decisions) is bad. If
you want to fork just do it, do not send 100 mails to ML's, fork and
start working.

It's free software after all.

 In Debian we have two different groups of people with entirely
 different visions. One that tries to stick to the traditional Linux
 (or Unix) way of doing things and one that tries to create something
 that I would call a copy of MS Windows, something that the first
 group ran away from. The latter group is backed by powerful
 commercial companies and paid developers, which brings the first
 group into a situation where it increasingly feels compelled to fight
 in order not to lose what it has learned to love. That's my
 experience with Debian over the last few years at least.

Not sure what you are implying here. That people that are supporting
systemd are somehow related to Red Hat or that they want to transform
Debian into a MS/Windows clone?

Having unified plumbing across distribution is good, it reduces the
maintenance burden, it allows to leverage other people work and
knowledge. I don't really see where the problem is.

 Now, my impression is that some people advocating things like Gnome
 and systemd here are so much experts and concerned with technical
 details that they fail to see the overall picture and the fundamental 
 differences. They essentially ask the critics (of systemd in this
 case) to just give in unless they have precise technical problems, in
 which case they should start coding or at least report these problems
 because they can all be solved, and in the end everyone can
 reasonably be expected to be happy. I guess these people would also
 deny that Gnome is intransparent and that it resembles MS Windows,
 because everyone can look at the code, after all.
 
 But to the user, things look quite different. Even if the user hasn't 
 consciously installed anything like Gnome, he will see that more and 
 more things are happening on his computer that he doesn't want and 
 doesn't understand, and that he has to spend more and more time
 looking for ways to understand things, disable things and restore the
 way things were done before, if that is still possible at all. And
 when he digs deep enough he will often find that the reason why
 something has changed for the worse is that it's the Gnome way.

The change of initsystem has nothing to do with GNOME (even if GNOME is
using some features extensively). systemd (or upstart) is solving long
standing issues regarding starting of daemon (clean environment,
selinux context, loginuid attribute or prevents other stuff that can
leak from the user session) and daemon life cycle management (being
sure that when a service is stopped all the processes are effectively
stopped). Then systemd add other features like private /tmp directory
using namespace or socket activation. All of these features are for
servers, again nothing to do with GNOME. AND in addition to these, it
gives DE an unique API to interact with the power state of the machine
(inhibition, notification about power state changes,...) and user
session management via logind.

 So to my mind the fundamental question is if you want to keep control
 of your computer or if you prefer eye candy and things happening 
 automagically. And there is no middle way (only extremist ones).

I fail to see how you are loosing control of your computer as systemd
provides more logging and more information about the state of the
services running on your machine. Without talking about the descriptive
language used to describe to .service file.
 
 And to the people who have no problem with the

Re: Debian and upstream choices

2014-11-04 Thread lee

Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz writes:

  man bends down and starts helping him look. After a while of futile
  searching the man says, hmmm, this isn't getting us anywhere; where did
  you lose it. The man replies, Further on up the road, but the light's
  better here.
 
  There's not much debian-user can do about facilitating change whether
  upstream is receptive or not.
 
 I dunno. That sounds a little cynical to me.

 Come on Lee, unless you are going to write patches and submit them to
 the Debian maintainer via the BTS, which I gather from your mails is not
 your intention, then what can complaining on debian-user about upstream
 achieve?

If you mean me, I didn't write this.


-- 
Again we must be afraid of speaking of daemons for fear that daemons
might swallow us.  Finally, this fear has become reasonable.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87egtj27ny@gulltop.yagibdah.de

Re: /bin/perl vs. /usr/bin/perl

2014-11-04 Thread lee

Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk writes:

 On 01/11/14 14:52, lee wrote:
 what's the proposed Debian way to deal with a different location of the
 'perl' executable?

 #! /usr/bin/env perl

 Fedora has /bin/perl, Debian has /usr/bin/perl.  Since I still have
 Fedora on the desktop and Debian on the VMs, I need compatibility.

 ... but I thought that on Fedora, /bin was turned into a symlink to
 /usr/bin in F17, so unless you've got some pre-F17 Fedora systems to
 care about, /usr/bin/perl should be fine on Fedora.

Thanks, it works fine this way --- just not the other way round.


-- 
Again we must be afraid of speaking of daemons for fear that daemons
might swallow us.  Finally, this fear has become reasonable.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87a94727li@gulltop.yagibdah.de

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

2014-11-04 Thread lee

John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com writes:

 do so and quit whining about how the DDs choose to expend their own time
 and resources.  They *are* interested in what users want and need.

Where does this interest show?


-- 
Again we must be afraid of speaking of daemons for fear that daemons
might swallow us.  Finally, this fear has become reasonable.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87mw86zvxh@gulltop.yagibdah.de

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...


lee wrote:

John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com writes:


do so and quit whining about how the DDs choose to expend their own time
and resources.  They *are* interested in what users want and need.

Where does this interest show?




For that matter, where does any interest in upstream show either - 
beyond vacuous statements about 'we can't force anything on upstream.


Personally, when I write code, I want to write it once - and have it as 
easy as possible to package for multiple platforms (including the BSDs, 
illumos, Mac, Windows, Android, ...).  Somehow, the move to systemd 
doesn't make my life easier (as either a developer or a sysadmin 
deploying stuff).


I'm still kind of hard pressed to figure out who's life systemd DOES 
make easier.


Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54591e8a.8050...@meetinghouse.net

Re: Multiple desktops in lightdm?

2014-11-04 Thread Gary Dale


On 03/11/14 11:20 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:

I've been using lightdm, and it more or less works.

About a decade ago, on another ancient Linux, I could get multiple
desktops, selected by ctl-alt-f7 through f12.  Is there some way to set
up something like that with lightdm?

Just being able to dynamically add another desktop would be good,
actually; they don't have to all be there at boot.

In case it makes a difference, I'm running squeeze with the traditional
sysv init.  I use icewm and fvwm as window  managers and do not run gnome
or kde.  Not that some of those libraries aren't there anyway.

-- hendrik

Are you asking for multiple virtual desktops or the ability to log on 
multiple times to the same machine?



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545926d8.8050...@torfree.net

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

2014-11-04 Thread Peter Nieman


On 04/11/14 19:04, Laurent Bigonville wrote:

Using the threat of forking to make people change their mind


I didn't threaten anybody.


do not send 100 mails to ML's


I didn't. I don't even know what ML's are.


Now, my impression is that some people advocating things like Gnome
and systemd here are so much experts and concerned with technical
details that they fail to see the overall picture and the fundamental
differences. They essentially ask the critics (of systemd in this
case) to just give in unless they have precise technical problems, in
which case they should start coding or at least report these problems
because they can all be solved, and in the end everyone can
reasonably be expected to be happy. I guess these people would also
deny that Gnome is intransparent and that it resembles MS Windows,
because everyone can look at the code, after all.

But to the user, things look quite different. Even if the user hasn't
consciously installed anything like Gnome, he will see that more and
more things are happening on his computer that he doesn't want and
doesn't understand, and that he has to spend more and more time
looking for ways to understand things, disable things and restore the
way things were done before, if that is still possible at all. And
when he digs deep enough he will often find that the reason why
something has changed for the worse is that it's the Gnome way.


The change of initsystem has nothing to do with GNOME (even if GNOME is
using some features extensively). systemd (or upstart) is solving long
standing issues regarding starting of daemon (clean environment,
selinux context, loginuid attribute or prevents other stuff that can
leak from the user session) and daemon life cycle management (being
sure that when a service is stopped all the processes are effectively
stopped). Then systemd add other features like private /tmp directory
using namespace or socket activation. All of these features are for
servers, again nothing to do with GNOME. AND in addition to these, it
gives DE an unique API to interact with the power state of the machine
(inhibition, notification about power state changes,...) and user
session management via logind.


That reply is a perfect example of what I wrote. Quote: some people 
advocating things like Gnome and systemd here are so much 'experts' and 
concerned with technical details that they fail to see the overall picture.



So to my mind the fundamental question is if you want to keep control
of your computer or if you prefer eye candy and things happening
automagically. And there is no middle way (only extremist ones).


I fail to see how you are loosing control of your computer


Much of what I said was based on personal experience. So please don't 
tell me trees are blue.



Without talking about the descriptive
language used to describe to .service file.


I don't have any .service file, and my PC works perfectly well without one.


And to the people who have no problem with the way things are going
right now I would say: there's a perfect OS for you already, and it's
called Microsoft Windows 7.


Not too sure what to answer to that.


How about nothing? Since you didn't even *try* to understand anything 
of what I wrote...



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: https://lists.debian.org/m3bc1m$82b$1...@ger.gmane.org

Re: Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

2014-11-04 Thread Jonathan de Boyne Pollard


Jerry Stuckle:

But just the fact there are  people who consider systemd to be

 problematic enough to consider forking Debian should not be ignored.

Denis Roio already has dyne:bolic.

* 
http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/run-scripts-and-service-units-side-by-side.html


You knew that we are Veteran UNIX Admins was actually Denis Roio, 
didn't you?



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545937c6.1050...@ntlworld.com

Re: installation disclaimer

2014-11-04 Thread Diogene Laerce


On 11/03/2014 10:05 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
 On Du, 02 nov 14, 11:35:00, Diogene Laerce wrote:
 I didn't find any related NEWS.Debian execpt the NEWS.Debian.gz found
 in /usr/share/doc/apt/NEWS.Debian.gz : is it what you're talking about ?
 Not in particular. apt-listchanges will hooks into apt (dpkg?) and 
 displays any new stuff found in a NEWS.Debian[.gz] file of the packages 
 you are upgrading.

 If you don't want to see them you can remove apt-listchanges or change 
 it's configuration.

Ok, I got it. :)

So I set the pager to none, like that I can still receive updates by mail.

Thanks a lot, best regards

-- 
“One original thought is worth a thousand mindless quotings.”
“Le vrai n'est pas plus sûr que le probable.”

  Diogene Laerce




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...


Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:

Jerry Stuckle:

But just the fact there are  people who consider systemd to be

 problematic enough to consider forking Debian should not be ignored.

Denis Roio already has dyne:bolic.

* 
http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/run-scripts-and-service-units-side-by-side.html


You knew that we are Veteran UNIX Admins was actually Denis Roio, 
didn't you?





I could be wrong, but it strikes me that the strongest voices for a fork 
are coming from folks who run servers - as it is those of us who spend a 
lot of time on custom plumbing are the ones most effected by the shift 
to systemd.


Unfortunately, dyne:bolic is not designed for server side deployments.  
I'm not sure I can identify any distros that still focus primarily on 
server deployment (as differentiated from the BSD and illumos worlds - 
that primarily seem to focus on server-side deployments.)


Personally, my concern is that an awful lot of server-side stuff that I 
run on seems to be packaged FIRST for Debian.  I'm a bit concerned about 
the impact of the shift toward systemd on the overall upstream ecosystem.


Miles Fidelman





--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54594349.60...@meetinghouse.net

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 21:08:50 +0100,
Peter Nieman gmane-a...@t-online.de a écrit :

 On 04/11/14 19:04, Laurent Bigonville wrote:
  Using the threat of forking to make people change their mind
 
 I didn't threaten anybody.
 
  do not send 100 mails to ML's
 
 I didn't. I don't even know what ML's are.

That was not directed to you, but a more generic statement about people
talking about forking debian.

(ML's == Mailing List's)


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141104224116.62c2b...@fornost.bigon.be

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

2014-11-04 Thread Jerry Stuckle

On 11/4/2014 4:41 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote:
 Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 21:08:50 +0100,
 Peter Nieman gmane-a...@t-online.de a écrit :
 
 On 04/11/14 19:04, Laurent Bigonville wrote:
 Using the threat of forking to make people change their mind

 I didn't threaten anybody.

 do not send 100 mails to ML's

 I didn't. I don't even know what ML's are.
 
 That was not directed to you, but a more generic statement about people
 talking about forking debian.
 
 (ML's == Mailing List's)
 
 

I don't see that as a threat.  I see it as an attempt to determine if
there are enough others interested to make it a viable project.

And lists like this one are a perfect place to find out of there are
other users interested in such a project.

Jerry


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54594bc0.4030...@attglobal.net

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 16:57:20 -0500,
Jerry Stuckle jstuc...@attglobal.net a écrit :

 On 11/4/2014 4:41 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote:
  Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 21:08:50 +0100,
  Peter Nieman gmane-a...@t-online.de a écrit :
  
  On 04/11/14 19:04, Laurent Bigonville wrote:
  Using the threat of forking to make people change their mind
 
  I didn't threaten anybody.
 
  do not send 100 mails to ML's
 
  I didn't. I don't even know what ML's are.
  
  That was not directed to you, but a more generic statement about
  people talking about forking debian.
  
  (ML's == Mailing List's)
  
  
 
 I don't see that as a threat.  I see it as an attempt to determine
 if there are enough others interested to make it a viable project.
 
 And lists like this one are a perfect place to find out of there are
 other users interested in such a project.

http://debianfork.org/:

If systemd will be substituting sysvinit in Debian, we will fork the
project and create a new distro. We hope this won't be necessary, but
we are well prepared for it.

I call that a threat. And the same kind of message are all around the
debian mailing lists and other social media.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141104230955.29263...@fornost.bigon.be

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...


Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 11/4/2014 4:41 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote:

Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 21:08:50 +0100,
Peter Nieman gmane-a...@t-online.de a écrit :


On 04/11/14 19:04, Laurent Bigonville wrote:

Using the threat of forking to make people change their mind

I didn't threaten anybody.


do not send 100 mails to ML's

I didn't. I don't even know what ML's are.

That was not directed to you, but a more generic statement about people
talking about forking debian.

(ML's == Mailing List's)



I don't see that as a threat.  I see it as an attempt to determine if
there are enough others interested to make it a viable project.

And lists like this one are a perfect place to find out of there are
other users interested in such a project.


And beyond that, the level of interest in a fork might, hopefully, 
provide some useful feedback into the Debian decision making process.  
(And in turn, the response to such feedback, or lack thereof, might 
further inform interest in a fork.)


Personally, the more this drags on, the more I'm convinced that those of 
us who deploy and manage servers would really benefit from a fork that 
retains the flavor and philosophy of pre-systemd (and maybe pre-udev) 
Debian.  Apt-based packaging remains (IMHO) the class of the field, and 
the primary distinguishing feature of Debian and its derivatives.  
Beyond that, sticking with modularity and choice, and a far more basic 
(i.e., configurable, systemv compatible) init system would be very 
attractive.


Then again, from a server-side perspective, the BSDs (traditional), and 
illumos-derived distributions are starting to look very better and 
better - given that they remain focused primarily on server-side and 
data center applications.


I really do wonder what upstream developers think about all of this - it 
remains a perspective that is conspicuously missing from most of this 
discussion.


Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54594f71.8040...@meetinghouse.net

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...


Laurent Bigonville wrote:

Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 16:57:20 -0500,
Jerry Stuckle jstuc...@attglobal.net a écrit :


On 11/4/2014 4:41 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote:

Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 21:08:50 +0100,
Peter Nieman gmane-a...@t-online.de a écrit :


On 04/11/14 19:04, Laurent Bigonville wrote:

Using the threat of forking to make people change their mind

I didn't threaten anybody.


do not send 100 mails to ML's

I didn't. I don't even know what ML's are.

That was not directed to you, but a more generic statement about
people talking about forking debian.

(ML's == Mailing List's)



I don't see that as a threat.  I see it as an attempt to determine
if there are enough others interested to make it a viable project.

And lists like this one are a perfect place to find out of there are
other users interested in such a project.

http://debianfork.org/:

If systemd will be substituting sysvinit in Debian, we will fork the
project and create a new distro. We hope this won't be necessary, but
we are well prepared for it.

I call that a threat. And the same kind of message are all around the
debian mailing lists and other social media.




Does it really matter if it's a threat, or a statement of intent, or 
even just a wish?  You seem to imply that there's something wrong with 
such a statement.


Given the number of folks who are saying if you don't like systemd, go 
somewhere else, and the tradition of forking open source software (and 
linux distributions) over various differences of opinion -- what is it 
that you're objecting to?


Personally, I see it as a clear and strong statement of dissatisfaction 
that's likely to lead to significant defection from Debian - to other 
existing distros, and possibly to one or more new forks.


What, exactly, is it that you are objecting to here?  That folks aren't 
just happy to go along with a major shift in Debian?  That people are 
making their opinions clear?  That people won't adopt Jessie, and will 
desert Debian once Wheezy starts to reach EOL? That folks might go so 
far as to create a new fork?  Something else?


Miles Fidelman




--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545952a0.3000...@meetinghouse.net

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

2014-11-04 Thread Didier 'OdyX' Raboud

Le mardi, 4 novembre 2014, 17.13:05 Miles Fidelman a écrit :
 Personally, the more this drags on, the more I'm convinced that those
 of us who deploy and manage servers would really benefit from a fork
 that retains the flavor and philosophy of pre-systemd (and maybe
 pre-udev) Debian.

Just.
Do.
It.

It might even be successful! We'll be in a better world with a new 
distro out there satisfying needs not satisfied anymore by Debian!

By all means, transform this energy into action and create the free 
software environment that you need. It will be more work than whining on 
lists, sure, but that's the only way to make the change fitting your 
hopes eventually happen.

Just.
Do.
It.

Cheers,
OdyX


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1967489.3JmRjoCPO3@gyllingar

Re: Systemd and Unix

2014-11-04 Thread Santiago Vila

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:38:00PM -0400, David Kline wrote:
 I have heard a lot of talk about how systemd deviates from the unix
 philosophy. What is the unix philosophy, how does debian follow it,
 and why does systemd break it?

I suspect that people do not want yet another thread about systemd and
that's why nobody answered your questions. Assuming your questions are
real and genunine, this is what I can tell you:

There is not a single rule that may be considered the unix philosophy.
Instead, there are several of them as you can check here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy

People who dislike systemd often cite Make each program do one thing well
as the rule being broken, as systemd does several things other than
booting the system that sysvinit didn't do.

As this is debian-user and not debian-philosophy, I suggest that you
keep reading about the subject and actually try systemd on jessie to
have your own opinion about it.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141104222109.ga15...@cantor.unex.es

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 17:26:40 -0500,
Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net a écrit :

 Laurent Bigonville wrote:
  Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 16:57:20 -0500,
  Jerry Stuckle jstuc...@attglobal.net a écrit :
 
  On 11/4/2014 4:41 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote:
  Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 21:08:50 +0100,
  Peter Nieman gmane-a...@t-online.de a écrit :
 
  On 04/11/14 19:04, Laurent Bigonville wrote:
  Using the threat of forking to make people change their mind
  I didn't threaten anybody.
 
  do not send 100 mails to ML's
  I didn't. I don't even know what ML's are.
  That was not directed to you, but a more generic statement about
  people talking about forking debian.
 
  (ML's == Mailing List's)
 
 
  I don't see that as a threat.  I see it as an attempt to
  determine if there are enough others interested to make it a
  viable project.
 
  And lists like this one are a perfect place to find out of there
  are other users interested in such a project.
  http://debianfork.org/:
 
  If systemd will be substituting sysvinit in Debian, we will fork
  the project and create a new distro. We hope this won't be
  necessary, but we are well prepared for it.
 
  I call that a threat. And the same kind of message are all around
  the debian mailing lists and other social media.
 
 
 
 Does it really matter if it's a threat, or a statement of intent,
 or even just a wish?  You seem to imply that there's something wrong
 with such a statement.
 
 Given the number of folks who are saying if you don't like systemd,
 go somewhere else, and the tradition of forking open source software
 (and linux distributions) over various differences of opinion -- what
 is it that you're objecting to?
 
 Personally, I see it as a clear and strong statement of
 dissatisfaction that's likely to lead to significant defection from
 Debian - to other existing distros, and possibly to one or more new
 forks.
 
 What, exactly, is it that you are objecting to here?  That folks
 aren't just happy to go along with a major shift in Debian?  That
 people are making their opinions clear?  That people won't adopt
 Jessie, and will desert Debian once Wheezy starts to reach EOL? That
 folks might go so far as to create a new fork?  Something else?

I'm objecting to the fact that they are doing announcement like that
instead of actually forking. That kind of message contributes to the
never ending discussion that is for a long time draining the energy of a
lot of developers (including me).

The situation for jessie will NOT change (the freeze is the Thu 6/11 at
00:00 UTC around 25h from now), systemd will stay the default init
system for jessie as this decision is clearly not challenged by the GR.

The funny thing is that there is ATM NO software in the debian archive
that requires systemd as PID1 to run[0] (zero, null, nil, None). So even
if Ian's GR passes, nothing will in practice change. There is software
however requiring _components_ of systemd to run properly, but from my
understanding this is again NOT covered by the GR.

So people not happy with today's situation and calling to fork will not
be more happy tomorrow.

So to summarize:

 - Debian releases jessie
 - People that still want to fork do whatever they want
 - Everybody is happy
 - End of the story

[0] OK I lied there is systemd-cron

 
 Miles Fidelman
 
 
 
 


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105000853.5bd8f...@fornost.bigon.be

Re: umask has no man page?

On 02/11/14 16:58, Carl Fink wrote:
 On Sun, 2014-11-02 at 14:17 +1100, Scott Ferguson wrote:
 Succinct!
 
 man pam_umask?
 
 That is not a solution to the original question I asked,

My apologies,
your question(s?) were unclear and obfuscated with false
assertions.

Hopefully a beginner would start at the start, i.e.:-
help help
info info
man man

So they wouldn't have your problem, and they'd quickly learn that umask
is *more* that just a BASH built-in, hence the variety of well-meaning
responses you've had to your question/complaints.

They'd also discover the pseudo man pages for built-ins e.g. if the
current shell is BASH:-
help -m umask

 unless you alias it to man umask.

Which would be silly. I'm not sure adding a reference to shell built-ins
with the same name, and to the property, would be a solution either.

 You don't _type_ pam_umask.

Do you believe you have psychic powers? If you asked clearer
questions[*1] you'd do less nitpicking. Please don't be the Red Queen.

The answer to the question*s* you might have asked, and some of the
questions they may have raised if you'd followed the guide on how to ask
smart questions is:-

Q. Why is there no man page for BASH built-ins?

A. Because they are built-ins. There documentation is internal to the
command (shell) - which has it's own man page, as per tradition
(separate the shell from the system). The same policy applies to
multi-call binaries, for the same reason - to reduce confusion.

Q. Does Debian policy require man pages for every package?

A. No (it's recommended only). There is no requirement for Debian
developers to produce a man page for every package they develop, or
package from upstream. It would be unproductive as many packages require
no man pages - and man pages are hard to write (horse drives cart).
NOTE: that built-in commands are *not* packages.

Q. But it confuses me that there is a man page for umask that is not the
BASH built-in, yet there is no man page for the BASH builtin umask. Why
is that?

A. Because the man pages project documents the Linux system (i.e. more
than just what an operator might typically type at a BASH command line).


[*1] Glenn Beck has a lot to answer for. :/

 
 Carl
 
 


Kind regards

--
Turns out you can't back a winner in the Gish Gallop ~ disappointed punter


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54596380.2050...@gmail.com

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

On 02/11/14 14:56, Miles Fidelman wrote:
 Marty wrote:
 On 11/01/2014 10:00 PM, Scott Ferguson wrote:
 On 02/11/14 12:19, Frank McCormick wrote:
 On 11/01/2014 08:58 PM, Scott Ferguson wrote:
 For the purpose of education not to fan silly semantic pedantics.


 On 02/11/14 05:24, Miles Fidelman wrote: snipped

 Second, we're not talking about vaguely unixy - we're talking
 about a well developed philosophy of designing things that
 dates back to Ken Thompson, et. al (c.f., The UNIX Programming
 Environment,or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy).
 I keep wondering if that's a cause of confusion.

 Why does the Linux kernel, GNU, and the rest of userland*have*  to
 be done the UNIX way??

 I keep hearing this assertion, but neither Linus Torvalds, or
 RMS/seem/ to support it's requirement. Could you expand on why this
 is a requirement from the people that produce's point of view??

 In this interview he makes it clear he does not think the entire
 Linux system has to be done the UNIX way.

 *Which does not answer my question.*


 I'm well aware that neither RMS or Linus do not advocate that Linux,
 kernel and userland are UNIX, not have to be the UNIX way.

 I'm asking why people keep insisting that systemd is bad
 *because it's not the UNIX way*.

 It sounds like a strawman - but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt and
 asking for clarification.

snipped


 
 Well... my main argument


It's not an argument - it's a question, you keeping making that
assertion - and refusing to provide a straight answer, instead making
more assertions you won't or can't support - and drawing false
conclusions. Which does nothing to aid a discussion and serves only to
drown out the original subject in a flood of FUD.


  would be that the Unix way - is a design
 philosophy that has served the Unix ecosystem VERY well for a very long
 time - particularly as regards supporting a thriving ecosystem of open
 source software, that has both supported evolution of technology,
 innovation by developers, and flexibility in the configuration and
 application of systems by end users.
 
 A fundamental shift from that approach, toward monolithic code, and
 heavily intertwined dependencies, particularly when that code is being
 promulgated by a developer with a very publicly stated desire to reshape
 Linux in fundamental ways, is very dangerous and ill-considered.
 
 When Debian - which has been, IMHO, the truest to the heart of Linux
 development, it is IMHO both a travesty and a tragedy.

Again - *not an answer to the question*, just a tangential collection of
assertions which do nothing to support your original claim - or justify
this hijacking of the thread.

While you may not have heard of the term Gish Gallop - it's exactly what
you are doing. Starting with the UNIX Way when discussing
GNU/Linux instead of Solaris. (dismayed and dissapointed)


 
 Miles Fidelman
 
 
 

If you can't put up, and won't let up, while constantly demanding of
others - it seems unreasonable to claim *you* are being bullied or
forced to do something against your will while consuming the output of
others.



--
Turns out you can't back a winner in the Gish Gallop ~ disappointed punter


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545968c9.9070...@gmail.com

Re: umask has no man page?

On 03/11/14 13:56, Alexis wrote:
 
 Iain M Conochie writes:
 
 However:

 $: which umask
 $:

 So umask is _not_ a program (in the sense that there is no binary
 called umask on the system)
 
 zsh, however, is more helpful:
 
 $ which umask
 umask: shell built-in command


BASH as current shell (and login)
scott@work ~ $ type umask
umask is a shell builtin

 
 
 Alexis.
 
 


Kind regards

--
Turns out you can't back a winner in the Gish Gallop ~ disappointed punter


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54596a90.3080...@gmail.com

Re: proofing searchable pdf files

On 04/11/14 12:17, Gary Roach wrote:
 On 11/01/2014 06:35 PM, Scott Ferguson wrote:
 On 31/10/14 11:47, Gary Roach wrote:
 Hi all,

 Problem: I am working on an archiving project and wish to archive
 documents to searchable pdf files but can't seem to figure out how to
 proof read and correct the text overlay. Any suggestions.

snipped


 This whole process is new to me and I am struggling to get my feet on
 the ground. 

I /thought/ I knew what I was up against when I first worked with
Tesseract[*1] - given my previous experience with several very large OCR
projects. Wrong! :(
Then, after my first Tesseract OCR project I /thought/ I was better
informed[*2] (sigh).  :)

Hence my questions about constraints.

[*1] built my own auto-book scanner
[*2] worked on a project where volunteers had previously scanned
documents and tried to use Tesseract. :/

 I just came to the same conclusion about trying to proof
 pdf's instead of using the raw tiff files. Thank you for the list of
 alternatives to Tesseract. 

They are not alternatives to Tesseract - just alternative interfaces
to the Tesseract engine.

 Iwill check them out. I am a bit unsure about
 the Tesseract tool set and need to do more research into this area.
 One of the hardest things about developing an new skill set for
 computers is finding the correct software and documentation. I'm still
 working on this.

Though I don't know the specifics of the project, may I suggest,
resources allowing, the following approach:-
;scan the pages as high-quality PNG images - keep the PNG originals[*1]
;try various processing methods before converting to TIFF (to get the
clearest separation of 2 colours)
;keep track of the various image versions[*1] - you'll find the
scan/convert/OCR/edit process is iterative
;feed TIFF to tesseract using the management interface of your choice -
create an index of the fonts used in the books you are processing, if
there's more than a couple of pages of a font-type spend some time on
teaching tesseract the font (much quicker than post-editing every
miss-read).

[*1] Especially useful for last edit layout checking.
[*2] I found Digikam invaluable for this purpose.


 
 Thanks
 
 Gary R.
 
 

Hope that helps, I'd be very interested in the outcome if you wouldn't
mind contacting me offlist.

Kind regards



--
Turns out you can't back a winner in the Gish Gallop ~ disappointed punter


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5459729b.8010...@gmail.com

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

2014-11-04 Thread Nate Bargmann

* On 2014 04 Nov 16:15 -0600, Miles Fidelman wrote:
 And beyond that, the level of interest in a fork might, hopefully, provide
 some useful feedback into the Debian decision making process.  (And in turn,
 the response to such feedback, or lack thereof, might further inform
 interest in a fork.)

If anyone would seriously consider forking Debian, they have a herculean
task ahead of them.  Would it not be more productive to consider a
derivative that consists of existing Debian packages which are init
agnostic and for those where init matters make the necessary package
build or source adjustments?  But first, it would seem to be useful to
identify which server packages have a dependency or even a
recommendation for systemd.

At least for Jessie the project has chosen to support sysvinit so your
task of maintaining a sysvinit only derivative should be much easier and
you may well benefit from existing Debian resources.  Done correctly
this could be a very valuable addition to the Debian ecosystem.  I truly
do not see this as an all or nothing proposition at this time.

- Nate

-- 

The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true.

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105004641.gd1...@n0nb.us

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...


Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:

Le mardi, 4 novembre 2014, 17.13:05 Miles Fidelman a écrit :

Personally, the more this drags on, the more I'm convinced that those
of us who deploy and manage servers would really benefit from a fork
that retains the flavor and philosophy of pre-systemd (and maybe
pre-udev) Debian.

Just.
Do.
It.

It might even be successful! We'll be in a better world with a new
distro out there satisfying needs not satisfied anymore by Debian!

By all means, transform this energy into action and create the free
software environment that you need. It will be more work than whining on
lists, sure, but that's the only way to make the change fitting your
hopes eventually happen.


Before embarking on a major project, it is generally advisable to 
understand:

- are there less difficult alternatives?
- is there enough demand?
- is there enough support to get it done?
- is it necessary (in this case, what are the changes of the pending GR 
mitigating the problem, or of otherwise avoiding the necessity of a 
major amount of effort)?


So, in other words, bugger off.

Miles Fidelman


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54597d3c.7000...@meetinghouse.net

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...


Laurent Bigonville wrote:

Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 17:26:40 -0500,
Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net a écrit :


Laurent Bigonville wrote:

Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 16:57:20 -0500,
Jerry Stuckle jstuc...@attglobal.net a écrit :


On 11/4/2014 4:41 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote:

Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 21:08:50 +0100,
Peter Nieman gmane-a...@t-online.de a écrit :


On 04/11/14 19:04, Laurent Bigonville wrote:

Using the threat of forking to make people change their mind

I didn't threaten anybody.


do not send 100 mails to ML's

I didn't. I don't even know what ML's are.

That was not directed to you, but a more generic statement about
people talking about forking debian.

(ML's == Mailing List's)



I don't see that as a threat.  I see it as an attempt to
determine if there are enough others interested to make it a
viable project.

And lists like this one are a perfect place to find out of there
are other users interested in such a project.

http://debianfork.org/:

If systemd will be substituting sysvinit in Debian, we will fork
the project and create a new distro. We hope this won't be
necessary, but we are well prepared for it.

I call that a threat. And the same kind of message are all around
the debian mailing lists and other social media.



Does it really matter if it's a threat, or a statement of intent,
or even just a wish?  You seem to imply that there's something wrong
with such a statement.

Given the number of folks who are saying if you don't like systemd,
go somewhere else, and the tradition of forking open source software
(and linux distributions) over various differences of opinion -- what
is it that you're objecting to?

Personally, I see it as a clear and strong statement of
dissatisfaction that's likely to lead to significant defection from
Debian - to other existing distros, and possibly to one or more new
forks.

What, exactly, is it that you are objecting to here?  That folks
aren't just happy to go along with a major shift in Debian?  That
people are making their opinions clear?  That people won't adopt
Jessie, and will desert Debian once Wheezy starts to reach EOL? That
folks might go so far as to create a new fork?  Something else?

I'm objecting to the fact that they are doing announcement like that
instead of actually forking. That kind of message contributes to the
never ending discussion that is for a long time draining the energy of a
lot of developers (including me).


Oh poor you.  You have to hit your delete key, and whine about it. 
Unlike those of us who have to absorb the impact of changing production 
systems, and might like to explore ways to avoid that level of pain.



--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54597da5.7080...@meetinghouse.net

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...


Nate Bargmann wrote:

* On 2014 04 Nov 16:15 -0600, Miles Fidelman wrote:

And beyond that, the level of interest in a fork might, hopefully, provide
some useful feedback into the Debian decision making process.  (And in turn,
the response to such feedback, or lack thereof, might further inform
interest in a fork.)

If anyone would seriously consider forking Debian, they have a herculean
task ahead of them.  Would it not be more productive to consider a
derivative that consists of existing Debian packages which are init
agnostic and for those where init matters make the necessary package
build or source adjustments?  But first, it would seem to be useful to
identify which server packages have a dependency or even a
recommendation for systemd.

At least for Jessie the project has chosen to support sysvinit so your
task of maintaining a sysvinit only derivative should be much easier and
you may well benefit from existing Debian resources.  Done correctly
this could be a very valuable addition to the Debian ecosystem.  I truly
do not see this as an all or nothing proposition at this time.




Actually, no, it has not.

Continuing support would at the very least involve an installer option 
to install sysvinit as the int system, and testing of package 
dependencies to insure that everything works as well with sysvinit as 
with systemd.


At the very least, it would involve fixing the bug in debootstrap that 
prevents preseeding a sysvinit-core installation - leaving the only 
option as allowing the installer to install systemd, then carefully 
removing it and unwinding all the dependencies.


The question in my mind, right now, is i) how long Wheezy can be 
maintained in production, and ii) how will things play out once jessie 
becomes stable and people actually start getting impacted by systemd for 
real.


Miles Fidelman



--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54597eee.7030...@meetinghouse.net

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

2014-11-04 Thread Jyri J. Virkki

Once upon a time Laurent Bigonville wrote:

 Using the threat of forking to make people change their mind or change
 a policy that has been decided by the project (the CTTE has been
 delegated by the project the power to take such decisions) is bad. If

The vote has barely started so nothing has been decided. I'm sure you
know the earlier decision is only about the default. As long as it can
easily be changed by the user I don't much care what the default is.
(This is not about Jessie, it is about the future.)

The current vote of whether default becomes a mandate, thus excluding
everyone else, is what's more important. To me as a long-term user of
debian.

 you want to fork just do it, do not send 100 mails to ML's, fork and
 start working.

I hope this type of exclusionary love it or leave it thinking is not
representative of debian as a whole. What happened to universal
operating system? I can speak only for myself but I don't imagine
anyone wants a fork. As long as debian continues to enable everyone
(systemd lovers and opponents) equally, everyone wins.

-- 
Jyri J. Virkki - Santa Cruz, CA






-- 


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105014432.gb6...@virkki.com

Re: Systemd and Unix


Santiago Vila wrote:

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:38:00PM -0400, David Kline wrote:

I have heard a lot of talk about how systemd deviates from the unix
philosophy. What is the unix philosophy, how does debian follow it,
and why does systemd break it?

I suspect that people do not want yet another thread about systemd and
that's why nobody answered your questions. Assuming your questions are
real and genunine, this is what I can tell you:

There is not a single rule that may be considered the unix philosophy.
Instead, there are several of them as you can check here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy

People who dislike systemd often cite Make each program do one thing well
as the rule being broken, as systemd does several things other than
booting the system that sysvinit didn't do.

As this is debian-user and not debian-philosophy, I suggest that you
keep reading about the subject and actually try systemd on jessie to
have your own opinion about it.



I have production systems to run, and other work to do.  So far, all of 
the reports I've been seeing lead me to the conclusion:

- run Wheezy as long as I possibly can
- invest my time in exploring BSD and illumos based distros - that still 
seem to focus on server-side production applications

- avoid any investment of time in jessie until things play out a bit more

Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54597fa0.3020...@meetinghouse.net

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

2014-11-04 Thread Jerry Stuckle

On 11/4/2014 6:08 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote:
 Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 17:26:40 -0500,
 Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net a écrit :
 
 Laurent Bigonville wrote:
 Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 16:57:20 -0500,
 Jerry Stuckle jstuc...@attglobal.net a écrit :

 On 11/4/2014 4:41 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote:
 Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 21:08:50 +0100,
 Peter Nieman gmane-a...@t-online.de a écrit :

 On 04/11/14 19:04, Laurent Bigonville wrote:
 Using the threat of forking to make people change their mind
 I didn't threaten anybody.

 do not send 100 mails to ML's
 I didn't. I don't even know what ML's are.
 That was not directed to you, but a more generic statement about
 people talking about forking debian.

 (ML's == Mailing List's)


 I don't see that as a threat.  I see it as an attempt to
 determine if there are enough others interested to make it a
 viable project.

 And lists like this one are a perfect place to find out of there
 are other users interested in such a project.
 http://debianfork.org/:

 If systemd will be substituting sysvinit in Debian, we will fork
 the project and create a new distro. We hope this won't be
 necessary, but we are well prepared for it.

 I call that a threat. And the same kind of message are all around
 the debian mailing lists and other social media.



 Does it really matter if it's a threat, or a statement of intent,
 or even just a wish?  You seem to imply that there's something wrong
 with such a statement.

 Given the number of folks who are saying if you don't like systemd,
 go somewhere else, and the tradition of forking open source software
 (and linux distributions) over various differences of opinion -- what
 is it that you're objecting to?

 Personally, I see it as a clear and strong statement of
 dissatisfaction that's likely to lead to significant defection from
 Debian - to other existing distros, and possibly to one or more new
 forks.

 What, exactly, is it that you are objecting to here?  That folks
 aren't just happy to go along with a major shift in Debian?  That
 people are making their opinions clear?  That people won't adopt
 Jessie, and will desert Debian once Wheezy starts to reach EOL? That
 folks might go so far as to create a new fork?  Something else?
 
 I'm objecting to the fact that they are doing announcement like that
 instead of actually forking. That kind of message contributes to the
 never ending discussion that is for a long time draining the energy of a
 lot of developers (including me).


Why?  Before forking, one needs to know if there is sufficient support
to create a fork.  There is no reason to fork if only one or two want it.

I don't see where the announcement is draining the energy of a lot of
developers - unless you're afraid the fork will succeed better than Debian.

 The situation for jessie will NOT change (the freeze is the Thu 6/11 at
 00:00 UTC around 25h from now), systemd will stay the default init
 system for jessie as this decision is clearly not challenged by the GR.
 

Which does not affect the fork - except maybe to increase the support
for it.

 The funny thing is that there is ATM NO software in the debian archive
 that requires systemd as PID1 to run[0] (zero, null, nil, None). So even
 if Ian's GR passes, nothing will in practice change. There is software
 however requiring _components_ of systemd to run properly, but from my
 understanding this is again NOT covered by the GR.
 

No, but as it stands the default is systemd - and that has a huge effect
on future packages.

 So people not happy with today's situation and calling to fork will not
 be more happy tomorrow.
 

Why not?  If there is a fork which gets rid of systemd, it will make a
lot of people happier.

 So to summarize:
 
  - Debian releases jessie
  - People that still want to fork do whatever they want
  - Everybody is happy
  - End of the story
 

Yes, but you seem to want to stifle any discussion of a possible fork.

 [0] OK I lied there is systemd-cron
 

 Miles Fidelman



Jerry


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545987d0.9050...@attglobal.net

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...

On 05/11/14 12:28, Miles Fidelman wrote:
 Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
 Le mardi, 4 novembre 2014, 17.13:05 Miles Fidelman a écrit :
 Personally, the more this drags on, the more I'm convinced that those
 of us who deploy and manage servers would really benefit from a fork
 that retains the flavor and philosophy of pre-systemd (and maybe
 pre-udev) Debian.

As JS posted - it's likely that the majority of us sit somewhere in
between the two extremes (Conservative Fundamentalists and Cutting Edge
Advocates).

 Just.
 Do.
 It.

 It might even be successful! We'll be in a better world with a new
 distro out there satisfying needs not satisfied anymore by Debian!

I'd have to agree with another poster - it's logistically more likely to
succeed[*1] (and be less divisive) if it was a Debian derivative.

[*1] I haven't noticed anyone volunteering to do the work - as opposed
to organizing others.


 By all means, transform this energy into action and create the free
 software environment that you need. It will be more work than whining on
 lists, sure, but that's the only way to make the change fitting your
 hopes eventually happen.
 
 Before embarking on a major project,

i.e. Your project - to remove systemd from Debian?

Good advice deserves the same in return:-

If you want to play general, you'd do better recruiting volunteer
soldiers if you didn't insist on staying behind the backlines.

snipped
 
 So, in other words, bugger off.

Please try and be pleasant - no one has said that, you clearly have the
wrong end of the offence.
Sadly, it's your constant haranguing, unsubstantiated claims, and
character attacks that are the offence.

 
 Miles Fidelman
 
 

Kind regards

--
Turns out you can't back a winner in the Gish Gallop ~ disappointed punter


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54598ab1.9090...@gmail.com

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...


Scott Ferguson wrote:

On 05/11/14 12:28, Miles Fidelman wrote:

Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:

Le mardi, 4 novembre 2014, 17.13:05 Miles Fidelman a écrit :

Personally, the more this drags on, the more I'm convinced that those
of us who deploy and manage servers would really benefit from a fork
that retains the flavor and philosophy of pre-systemd (and maybe
pre-udev) Debian.

As JS posted - it's likely that the majority of us sit somewhere in
between the two extremes (Conservative Fundamentalists and Cutting Edge
Advocates).


Just.
Do.
It.

It might even be successful! We'll be in a better world with a new
distro out there satisfying needs not satisfied anymore by Debian!

I'd have to agree with another poster - it's logistically more likely to
succeed[*1] (and be less divisive) if it was a Debian derivative.


Isn't that a rather fine distinction?  How is a fork all that different 
than a derivative?



[*1] I haven't noticed anyone volunteering to do the work - as opposed
to organizing others.


Well, that's the point of the discussion - to suss out who's willing and 
able to do the work.



By all means, transform this energy into action and create the free
software environment that you need. It will be more work than whining on
lists, sure, but that's the only way to make the change fitting your
hopes eventually happen.

Before embarking on a major project,

i.e. Your project - to remove systemd from Debian?


Ill-defined as yet, and may not be my project - might be someone 
else's project - initial goal is to see who's interested, and who's 
initiating what.


General outline from my point of view of an ideal distro:
- Debian like/derived (Wheezy as baseline, probably; possibly Squeeze as 
jumping off point)

- Apt packaging
- focused on server deployments (normal operation intended to be headless)
- particular focus on cluster/cloud support
- support multiple init systems, sysvinit as default and lowest common 
denominator
- support maximum portability of code across Linux, BSD (including Mac), 
illumos, unikernals


Alternative model that is somewhat intriguing:
- build up from LFS
- Nix or GUIX based packaging

And still evaluating whether an existing distribution/platform is 
sufficient:
- who knows, maybe Debian will come to its senses and provide true 
multi-init system support, from install onwards, with serious testing 
for more than systemd
- maybe the GNU folks will really get to a real release; seems like the 
systemd situation has lit some fire under the project
- SUSE seems to be moving down the systemd path, but with less 
aggregation (e.g., systemd w/o journald)

- Gentoo/Funtoo
- Slackware
- BSDs
- illumos (particularly SmartOS and Dilos)

I figure I have a year, maybe two, before having to migrate off Wheezy - 
so no real hurry.






Good advice deserves the same in return:-

If you want to play general, you'd do better recruiting volunteer
soldiers if you didn't insist on staying behind the backlines.

snipped

So, in other words, bugger off.

Please try and be pleasant - no one has said that, you clearly have the
wrong end of the offence.


Aimed specifically at the latest round of systemd fan-boys who can't 
tolerate anything but 100% acceptance of the program.  Getting a little 
tired of it - this was the polite version of what I kept from typing.

Sadly, it's your constant haranguing, unsubstantiated claims, and
character attacks that are the offence.


What... pointing to bug reports and published writings by Poettering are 
now unsubstantiated claims and character attacks?  Since when?


Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545992bc.4040...@meetinghouse.net

Re: Systemd and Unix

2014-11-04 Thread Gary Dale


On 04/11/14 08:38 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:

Santiago Vila wrote:

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:38:00PM -0400, David Kline wrote:

I have heard a lot of talk about how systemd deviates from the unix
philosophy. What is the unix philosophy, how does debian follow it,
and why does systemd break it?

I suspect that people do not want yet another thread about systemd and
that's why nobody answered your questions. Assuming your questions are
real and genunine, this is what I can tell you:

There is not a single rule that may be considered the unix philosophy.
Instead, there are several of them as you can check here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy

People who dislike systemd often cite Make each program do one thing 
well

as the rule being broken, as systemd does several things other than
booting the system that sysvinit didn't do.

As this is debian-user and not debian-philosophy, I suggest that you
keep reading about the subject and actually try systemd on jessie to
have your own opinion about it.



I have production systems to run, and other work to do.  So far, all 
of the reports I've been seeing lead me to the conclusion:

- run Wheezy as long as I possibly can
- invest my time in exploring BSD and illumos based distros - that 
still seem to focus on server-side production applications

- avoid any investment of time in jessie until things play out a bit more

Miles Fidelman

Actually, I've got a problem with sysvinit on one machine running Wheezy 
but have had no problems with systemd on my Jessie machines. Moreover 
systemd is being adopted by just about everyone. I don't want to 
continue this discussion because it's futile. Systemd is just a better 
way to run the init process. Get used to it.



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5459a252.7050...@torfree.net

Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...