Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list [Modified 20240408]

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

Codes of Conduct


* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
  
Guidelines for this list

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work:

Language


* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or
  debian-user-catalan

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively
==

* This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some
  time for an answer - please be patient.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.
  
* It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list.
  
* Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers
  a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get
  the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information.

Off-topic posts
===

* Please try to stay on topic.

* Off-topic posts will happen occasionally as threads wander.
  Don't reply to them to make them carry on.

* If you wish to introduce an off-topic subject that might be
  of interest to the wider list, start a new thread and preface
  the title with [OT].

* There is no debian-offtopic mailing list: please don't try
  to start one.

Partisan topics and political arguments
===

* Arguments for the sake of it are not
  welcome here. 

* Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here
  either.

  Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your
  views or need to read them on a Debian list.
  
Editing and answering mailing list posts


* It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject
  or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email
  accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. 

  For example: New question [WAS Old topic]

* It may also be useful for someone to post a summary email from time to
  time to explain long threads.
  
* Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
  and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.

* Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to
  read and follow than long threads.

* If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and 
  cut out extra text that is not relevant to your point.

Private replies and responding to posts off-list


* Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
  conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
  along on the list or reading the archives later.

* We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list
  to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you
  haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community and the
  people you find on the list may become familiar friends
  
  BUT

* Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists 
  can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently leak
  personal information by posting a private reply back to the list.

  If you *do* want to post outside the list - make it clear that you have done
  so at the top of the message. If someone replies to you privately and you
  think that this should go back to the list - ask them to post it to the list
  - do not just do so on their behalf without checking.

I can't see what I want here - help me!
===

* It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue
  you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone
  else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month.

* Although there are only 20 or 30 regular contributors, there may
  be a couple of thousand readers in the background. Nobody is
  a mind reader, nobody can sit beside you. Please help by providing
  useful details if asked, especially which version of Debian you are
  running.
  
I'm not using Debian but ...


* Strictly, discussions of other distributions

Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list [Modified 20240401]

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

Codes of Conduct


* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
  
Guidelines for this list

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work:

Language


* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or
  debian-user-catalan

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively
==

* This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some
  time for an answer - please be patient.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.
  
* It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list.
  
* Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers
  a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get
  the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information.

Off-topic posts
===

* Please try to stay on topic.

* Off-topic posts will happen occasionally as threads wander.
  Don't reply to them to make them carry on.

* If you wish to introduce an off-topic subject that might be
  of interest to the wider list, start a new thread and preface
  the title with [OT].

* There is no debian-offtopic mailing list: please don't try
  to start one.

Partisan topics and political arguments
* Arguments for the sake of it are not
  welcome here. 

* Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here
  either.

  Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your
  views or need to read them on a Debian list.
  
Editing and answering mailing list posts


* It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject
  or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email
  accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. 

  For example: New question [WAS Old topic]

* It may also be useful for someone to post a summary email from time to
  time to explain long threads.
  
* Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
  and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.

* Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to
  read and follow than long threads.

* If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and 
  cut out extra text that is not relevant to your point.

Private replies and responding to posts off-list


* Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
  conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
  along on the list or reading the archives later.

* We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list
  to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you
  haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community and the
  people you find on the list may become familiar friends
  
  BUT

* Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists 
  can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently leak
  personal information by posting a private reply back to the list.

  If you *do* want to post outside the list - make it clear that you have done
  so at the top of the message. If someone replies to you privately and you
  think that this should go back to the list - ask them to post it to the list
  - do not just do so on their behalf without checking.

I can't see what I want here - help me!
===

* It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue
  you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone
  else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month.

* Although there are only 20 or 30 regular contributors, there may
  be a couple of thousand readers in the background. Nobody is
  a mind reader, nobody can sit beside you. Please help by providing
  useful details if asked, especially which version of Debian you are
  running.
  
I'm not using Debian but ...


* Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here.
  Please note: advice

Mailing list FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240201)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

Codes of Conduct


* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
  
Guidelines for this list

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work:

Language


* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or
  debian-user-catalan

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively
==

* This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some
  time for an answer - please be patient.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.
  
* It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list.
  
* Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers
  a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get
  the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information.

* Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
  welcome here. 

* Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here
  either.

  Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your
  views or need to read them on a Debian list.
  
Editing and answering mailing list posts


* It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject
  or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email
  accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. 

  For example: New question [WAS Old topic]

* It may also be useful for someone to post a summary email from time to
  time to explain long threads.
  
* Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
  and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.

* Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to
  read and follow than long threads.

* If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and 
  cut out extra text that is not relevant to your point.

Private replies and responding to posts off-list


* Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
  conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
  along on the list or reading the archives later.

* We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list
  to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you
  haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community and the
  people you find on the list may become familiar friends
  
  BUT

* Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists 
  can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently leak
  personal information by posting a private reply back to the list.

  If you *do* want to post outside the list - make it clear that you have done
  so at the top of the message. If someone replies to you privately and you
  think that this should go back to the list - ask them to post it to the list
  - do not just do so on their behalf without checking.

I can't see what I want here - help me!
===

* It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue
  you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone
  else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month.

* Although there are only 20 or 30 regular contributors, there may
  be a couple of thousand readers in the background. Nobody is
  a mind reader, nobody can sit beside you. Please help by providing
  useful details if asked, especially which version of Debian you are
  running.
  
I'm not using Debian but ...


* Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here.
  Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be
  only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently.
  Any advice given accordingly may be inaccurate but is given in good faith.

FAQ topics
==

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

This is a public list, archived in many places

FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240201)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

Codes of Conduct


* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
  
Guidelines for this list

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work:

Language


* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or
  debian-user-catalan

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively
==

* This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some
  time for an answer - please be patient.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.
  
* It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list.
  
* Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers
  a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get
  the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information.

* Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
  welcome here. 

* Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here
  either.

  Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your
  views or need to read them on a Debian list.
  
Editing and answering mailing list posts


* It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject
  or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email
  accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. 

  For example: New question [WAS Old topic]

* It may also be useful for someone to post a summary email from time to
  time to explain long threads.
  
* Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
  and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.

* Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to
  read and follow than long threads.

* If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and 
  cut out extra text that is not relevant to your point.

Private replies and responding to posts off-list


* Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
  conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
  along on the list or reading the archives later.

* We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list
  to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you
  haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community and the
  people you find on the list may become familiar friends
  
  BUT

* Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists 
  can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently leak
  personal information by posting a private reply back to the list.

  If you *do* want to post outside the list - make it clear that you have done
  so at the top of the message. If someone replies to you privately and you
  think that this should go back to the list - ask them to post it to the list
  - do not just do so on their behalf without checking.

I can't see what I want here - help me!
===

* It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue
  you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone
  else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month.

* Although there are only 20 or 30 regular contributors, there may
  be a couple of thousand readers in the background. Nobody is
  a mind reader, nobody can sit beside you. Please help by providing
  useful details if asked, especially which version of Debian you are
  running.
  
I'm not using Debian but ...


* Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here.
  Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be
  only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently.
  Any advice given accordingly may be inaccurate but is given in good faith.

FAQ topics
==

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

This is a public list, archived in many places

Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240201)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

Codes of Conduct


* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
  
Guidelines for this list

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work:

Language


* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or
  debian-user-catalan

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively
==

* This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some 
  time for an answer - please be patient.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.
  
* It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list.
  
* Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers
  a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get
  the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information.

* Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
  welcome here. 

* Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here
  either. 

  Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your
  views or need to read them on a Debian list.
  
Editing and answering mailing list posts


* It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject
  or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email
  accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. 

  For example: New question [WAS Old topic]

* It may also be useful to for someone to post a summary email from time to
  time to explain long threads.
  
* Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
  and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.

* Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to
  read and follow than long threads.

* If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and 
  cut out extra text that is not relevant to your point.

Private replies and responding to posts off-list


* Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
  conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
  along on the list or reading the archives later.

* We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list
  to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you
  haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community
  
  BUT

* Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists 
  can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently leak
  personal information by posting a private reply back to the list.

  If you *do* want to post outside the list - make it clear that you have done
  so at the top of the message. If someone replies to you privately and you
  think that this should go back to the list - ask them to post it to the list
  - do not just do so on their behalf without checking.

I can't see what I want here - help me!
===

* It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue
  you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone
  else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month.

* Although there are only 20 or 30 regular contributors, there may
  be a couple of thousand readers in the background. Nobody is
  a mind reader, nobody can sit beside you. Please help by providing
  useful details if asked, especially which version of Debian you are
  running.
  
I'm not using Debian but ...


* Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here.
  Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be
  only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently.
  Any advice given accordingly may be inaccurate but is given in good faith.

FAQ topics
==

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

This is a public list, archived in many places
==

* One question

Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240102)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

A Debian resource - Codes of Conduct


* The list is a Debian communication forum hosted on Debian resources.
  As such, it is subject to both  the Debian mailing list Code of
  Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct.
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
  
Guidelines for this list

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work:

Language


* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other
  mailing lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french
  or debian-user-catalan.

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively
==

* This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some
  time for an answer - please be patient.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.
  
* It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list.
  
* Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers
  a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to
  get the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information.

* Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
  welcome here. 

* Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here 
  either. Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree
  with your views or need to read them on a Debian list.
  
Editing and answering mailing list posts


* It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject
  or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email
  accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. 

  For example: New question [WAS Old topic]

* It may also be useful for someone to post a summary email from time to
  time to explain long threads.
  
* Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
  and to scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.

* Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to
  read and follow than long threads.

* If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and cut
  extra text that is not relevant to your point, showing that you have done.
  so.

Private replies and responding to posts off-list


* Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
  conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
  along on the list or reading the archives later.

* We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list
  to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you
  haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community and
  the people you find on the list become familiar friends
  
  BUT

* Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists 
  can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently
  leak personal information by posting a private reply back to the list.

  If you do want to post outside the list for any reason - please make it
  clear that you have done so at the top of the message. If someone replies
  to you privately and you think that this should go back to the list - ask
  them to post it back to the list and do not just post it on their behalf
  without checking with them.

I can't see what I want here - help me!
===

* It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue
  you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone
  else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month.

* Although there are only twenty or thirty regular contributors, there may
  be a couple of thousand readers following the list in the background.
  Nobody is a  mind reader, nobody can sit beside you and see what you
  see.  Please help the rest of us by providing useful details if asked,
  especially which version of Debian you are running.

Problem solving
===

* If you hit problems with Debian, please don't blindly follow advice
  that you find on the Internet. Please DO stop, note what you think
  you've done and, if possible, take a note of the cirucmstances and
  commands you have run that have got you to this point.
  If you have been researching solutions, it may be useful

On threads and changing Subject [was: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)]

[tomas]

On Tue, Jan 02, 2024 at 03:26:03AM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Mon, Jan 01, 2024 at 07:32:18PM -0700, Charles Curley wrote:
> > If one changes subject, would it not be better to simply start a new
> > thread? With most mail readers threading using the In-Reply-To header,
> > the new subject would get buried in the old thread.
> 
> Personally I prefer that. I appreciate being able to break out
> sub-threads that seem interesting, instead of having that decision
> made for me.

I'd tend to leave the (real, In-Reply-To:, References:) thread intact
as long as there's still a relation and to actively break the thread
when the relation was lost. But of course, change the Subject: appropriately.

Here I try an example :)

> But in any case, ~30% of the posters of this list (the largest
> single constituency) use gmail which I recently learned will break
> such emails out to appear to be in a different "conversation"
> anyway.

Why cater to gmail users and Google's interests? That's on their plate
to complain to Google if their mail reader is garbage (I try to be
friendly to them by putting a [was: ...] in the Subject: relating to
the old one. Either they sort it out manually or they let their fancy
AIs do it for them -- and sneak in some targeted advertising if their
overlords feel like it).

The other 70% are more important to me anyway.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Mon, Jan 01, 2024 at 07:32:18PM -0700, Charles Curley wrote:
> If one changes subject, would it not be better to simply start a new
> thread? With most mail readers threading using the In-Reply-To header,
> the new subject would get buried in the old thread.

Personally I prefer that. I appreciate being able to break out
sub-threads that seem interesting, instead of having that decision
made for me.

But in any case, ~30% of the posters of this list (the largest
single constituency) use gmail which I recently learned will break
such emails out to appear to be in a different "conversation"
anyway.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Jan 01, 2024 at 07:32:18PM -0700, Charles Curley wrote:
> If one changes subject, would it not be better to simply start a new
> thread? With most mail readers threading using the In-Reply-To header,
> the new subject would get buried in the old thread.

There's a difference between natural subject drift, or someone hijacking
a thread to ask their own question.  A judgment call may be needed in
some cases where it might be unclear, but most of the time it should
be obvious which one's happening.

Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)

[Charles Curley]

The refactoring and headers are an improvement, thank you.


On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 22:56:03 +
"Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:

> If you change subject or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the
> subject line on your email accordingly so that this can be clearly
> seen. 
> 
>   For example: New question [WAS Old topic]

If one changes subject, would it not be better to simply start a new
thread? With most mail readers threading using the In-Reply-To header,
the new subject would get buried in the old thread.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20240101)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

Codes of Conduct


* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
  
Guidelines for this list

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list should work:

Language


* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french or
  debian-user-cat

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

Answering questions and contributing to discussions constructively
==

* This is a fairly busy mailing list but even so you may have to wait some time 
  for an answer - please be patient.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.
  
* It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list.
  
* Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers
  a question before you - if so, you should not reply simply in order to get
  the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information.

* Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
  welcome here. 

* Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments do not belong here 
either. 
  Debian's community is world wide; do not assume others will agree with your
  views or need to read them on a Debian list.
  
Editing and answering mailing list posts


* It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject
  or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on your email
  accordingly so that this can be clearly seen. 

  For example: New question [WAS Old topic]

* It may also be useful to for someone to post a summary email from time to
  time to explain long threads.
  
* Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
  and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.

* Clear replies and a short mailing list thread are much easier to
  read and follow than long threads.

* If you are replying to a post, please reply in-line if possible and cut extra
  text that is not relevant to your point.

Private replies and responding to posts off-list


* Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
  conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
  along on the list or reading the archives later.

* We're only human: you may want to respond to someone off-list
  to make a point (or to wish them Happy Birthday / comment that you
  haven't seen them for a long time). We're also a community
  
  BUT

* Posting outside the list can be unhelpful: bad behaviour outside the lists 
  can't easily be dealt with and will be invisible. You may inadvertently leak
  personal information by posting a private reply back to the list.

  If you *do* want to post outside the list - make it clear that you have done
  so at the top of the message. If someone replies to you privately and you
  think that this should go back to the list - ask them to post it to the list
  do not just do so on their behalf without checking.

I can't see what I want here - help me!
===

* It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue
  you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone
  else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month.

* Although there are only 20 or 30 regular contributors, there may
  be a couple of thousand readers in the background. Nobody is
  a mind reader, nobody can sit beside you. Please help by providing
  useful details if asked, especially which version of Debian you are
  running.
  
I'm not using Debian but ...


* Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here.
  Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be
  only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently.
  Any advice given accordingly  may be inaccurate but is given in good faith.

FAQ topics
==

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

This is a public list, archived in many places
==

* One question that comes up

Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20231216)

[Michael Kjörling]

Could we perchance add something to the FAQ about the
inappropriateness of reposting private replies to the list without
first confirming with the people involved that doing so is acceptable?

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 20231216)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list.

* Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers
  a question before you - if so, you should not reply in order to get
  the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information.

* Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
   and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.

* Clear replies and a short mailing list thread may be much easier to
  read than long threads.

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient.

* Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
  conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
  along on the list or reading the archives later.

* It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject
  or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on the email
  accordingly.

* It may also be useful to for someone to post a summary email from time to
  time to explain long threads.

* It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue
  you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone
  else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

* Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here.
  Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be
  only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently.
  Any advice given accordingly  may be inaccurate but is given in good faith.

* Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
  welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
  do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not
  assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
  Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time
  is of the form:

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"

Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially
cached by Google and so on.

Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies
anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to
draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect"
See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings: repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified x2 16th December 2023)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list.

* Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers
  a question before you - if so, you should not reply in order to get
  the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information.

* Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
  and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.

* Clear replies and a short mailing list thread may be much easier to
  read than long threads.

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient.

* Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
  conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
  along on the list or reading the archives later.

* It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject
  or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on the email
  accordingly.

* It may also be useful for either a thread contributor or an observer
  to post a summary email from time to time to summarise long threads
  or to effectively bring a long thread to an end. 

* It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue
  you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone
  else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

* Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here.
  Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be
  only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently.
  Any advice given accordingly may be inaccurate but is given in good faith.

* Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
  welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
  do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not
  assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
  Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time
  is of the form:

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"

Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially
cached by Google and so on.

Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies
anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to
draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect"
See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings: repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 16th December 2023)

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> * It may also be useful to for someone to post a summary email from time to
>   time to explain long threads.

You did not move the old "to" but rather added a new one during the change
from the text in 2023/12/msg00045.html to the new one:

> > * It may also be useful to post a summary email from time to time to
> >   explain long threads.

As we are at it, i think the term "for someone" does not add much of
information. Do you have in mind future readers of the archive ?
Or casual readers who got lost in forth and back ? Or contributors
who deviated from the original topic of the thread ?

Further:

I see a surplus leading blank in the line
  "   and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy."
Other lines have only two of those blanks.

I see an inner double blank in
  "  Any advice given accordingly  may be inaccurate but is given in good 
faith."


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 16th December 2023)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list.

* Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers
  a question before you - if so, you should not reply in order to get
  the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information.

* Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
   and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.

* Clear replies and a short mailing list thread may be much easier to
  read than long threads.

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient.

* Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
  conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
  along on the list or reading the archives later.

* It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject
  or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on the email
  accordingly.

* It may also be useful to for someone to post a summary email from time to
  time to explain long threads.

* It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue
  you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone
  else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

* Strictly, discussions of other distributions are off-topic here.
  Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian will be
  only our best guess - other distributions may do things very differently.
  Any advice given accordingly  may be inaccurate but is given in good faith.

* Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
  welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
  do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not
  assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
  Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time
  is of the form:

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"

Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially
cached by Google and so on.

Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies
anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to
draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect"
See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings: repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

Re: Mailing List

[David Wright]

On Sun 03 Dec 2023 at 10:01:25 (+0100), Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> David Wright wrote:
> > I'm subscribed, but I don't receive that badge of honour.
> > This is from my other post in this thread—no LDOSUBSCRIBER:
> >
> > >   X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.9 required=4.0 tests=CAPINIT,FOURLA,
> > > HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDO_WHITELIST,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,
> > > T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
> > > version=3.4.2
> 
> This is known to happen if the mail is sent from an address that is different
> from the subscribed mail address. Maybe you discovered a new cause.
> 
> 
> > I'm guessing your last example is Curt's.
> > >   X-Spam-Status: No,
> > > score=-10.5 required=4.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,
> > > FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDOSUBSCRIBER,
> > > LDO_WHITELIST,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable
> > > autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2
> 
> Yes. It's from:
> 
>   Subject: Re: rhs time out error?
>   Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2023 16:30:02 - (UTC)
>   Message-ID: 
> 
> > The only occurrence of
> > the From: address in the entire email is in the From: line.
> > That's no different from my own post, except for the lines at the
> > very top, which show my post being delivered to me.
> >
> > I had thought the server was using the envelope-from in order to
> > identify subscribers, yet Curt's posts, like mine, have different
> > envelope-from and From: addresses, which is presumably the reason
> > behind HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS.
> 
> HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS would have been my first suspicion, too.
> But i see no "envelope-from" Curt's mail and yours.
> Only
>   Envelope-To: 
> (If "envelope-from" is a typo and "Envelope-To:" differs from "From:",
> then we'd probably have the situation of different sender and receiver.)

As you can see from the headers I've posted below, what the
envelope-to (RCPT) gets called depends on the hosting service.
In my case, it's the X-Original-To: header. (As the list server
generates it, it won't take part in spam detection, of course.)

OTOH the envelope-from (MAIL/MAIL FROM) is, I presume, of great
interest to the spam scanners, perhaps more than the From:
address itself, because it's more likely to be checked by the mail
submission system. Curt's envelope-from is embedded in a Received:
header, pasted here with some surrounding context:

  Received: from ciao.gmane.io (ciao.gmane.io [116.202.254.214])
  (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)
  key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) 
server-digest SHA256)
  (Client did not present a certificate)
  by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0D83205F2
  for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2023 16:30:11 + (UTC)
  Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92)
  (envelope-from )
  id 1r7I1I-0001BZ-JA
  for debian-user@lists.debian.org; Sun, 26 Nov 2023 17:30:08 +0100
  X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/
  To: debian-user@lists.debian.org

> It would be interesting to see all "Received:" headers of your own
> mail when it arrives back to you. I see in your mail to which i now reply:
> 
>   Received: from bendel.debian.org ([82.195.75.100]) by mx-ha.gmx.net
> (mxgmx109
>  [212.227.17.5]) with ESMTPS (Nemesis) id 1MZzsi-1qmfcQ0kRo-00R0wN for
>  ; Sun, 03 Dec 2023 05:24:06 +0100
>   Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
> by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with QMQP
> id 0F8C9209D5; Sun,  3 Dec 2023 04:23:55 + (UTC)
>   Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
> by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0413D20837
> for ; Sun,
> 3 Dec 2023 04:23:42 + (UTC)
>   Received: from bendel.debian.org ([127.0.0.1])
> by localhost (lists.debian.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 2525)
> with ESMTP id 1Ym_tsLfWzf6 for ;
> Sun,  3 Dec 2023 04:23:33 + (UTC)
>   Received: from omta012.uswest2.a.cloudfilter.net
> (omta012.uswest2.a.cloudfilter.net [35.164.127.235])
> (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits))
> (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified))
> by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A7BD209C6
> for ; Sun,
> 3 Dec 2023 04:23:32 + (UTC)
>   Received: from cxr.smtp.a.cloudfilter.net ([10.0.16.145])
> by cmsmtp with ESMTP
> id 9deErTpHpaga99e0vrCJA8; Sun, 03 Dec 2023 04:23:29 +
>   Received: from axis.corp ([68.102.133.185])
> by cmsmtp with ESMTPSA
> id 9e0srwhHYTywR9e0urtWnm; Sun, 03 Dec 2023 04:23:29 +
> 
> All these headers except the first were added on the sender side, i.e
> on the list server bendel.debian.org and in your mail provider's realm.
> 
> In a mail of mine to this list i see:
> 
>   Received: from bendel.debian.org ([82.195.75.100]) by mx-ha.gmx.net
> (mxgmx009
> [212.227.15.9]) with ESMTPS (Nemesis) id 1MMYsv-1qsRpG2aBT-00SPIm for
> ; Fri, 01 Dec 2023 21:11:45 +0100
>   

Re: Mailing List

[David Wright]

On Fri 01 Dec 2023 at 20:39:51 (+), piorunz wrote:
> On 01/12/2023 16:15, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > > Your message is here, so you are subscribed :)
> > 
> > Not necessarily, you can post here as a non-subscriber. Actually I have
> > the hunch that the OP is not subscribed (going by the X-Spam-Status header).
> > 
> > Cheers
> 
> Oh, ok, I didn't know that. That's why the group receives so much spam
> lol -_-

Almost all the spam I receive addressed to deblis@… has not come
from the list server: the address deblis@… has been harvested.
Currently they're translators and cushions; last month I'd won
tens of millions of dollars many times over, from a slew of slebs.
And there's the perennial trickle of mailbox-full/hacked/expired
phishing expeditions. I don't blame the list admins.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Mailing List

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

David Wright wrote:
> I'm subscribed, but I don't receive that badge of honour.
> This is from my other post in this thread—no LDOSUBSCRIBER:
>
> >   X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.9 required=4.0 tests=CAPINIT,FOURLA,
> > HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDO_WHITELIST,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,
> > T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
> > version=3.4.2

This is known to happen if the mail is sent from an address that is different
from the subscribed mail address. Maybe you discovered a new cause.


> I'm guessing your last example is Curt's.
> >   X-Spam-Status: No,
> > score=-10.5 required=4.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,
> > FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDOSUBSCRIBER,
> > LDO_WHITELIST,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable
> > autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2

Yes. It's from:

  Subject: Re: rhs time out error?
  Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2023 16:30:02 - (UTC)
  Message-ID: 

> The only occurrence of
> the From: address in the entire email is in the From: line.
> That's no different from my own post, except for the lines at the
> very top, which show my post being delivered to me.
>
> I had thought the server was using the envelope-from in order to
> identify subscribers, yet Curt's posts, like mine, have different
> envelope-from and From: addresses, which is presumably the reason
> behind HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS.

HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS would have been my first suspicion, too.
But i see no "envelope-from" Curt's mail and yours.
Only
  Envelope-To: 
(If "envelope-from" is a typo and "Envelope-To:" differs from "From:",
then we'd probably have the situation of different sender and receiver.)


It would be interesting to see all "Received:" headers of your own
mail when it arrives back to you. I see in your mail to which i now reply:

  Received: from bendel.debian.org ([82.195.75.100]) by mx-ha.gmx.net
(mxgmx109
 [212.227.17.5]) with ESMTPS (Nemesis) id 1MZzsi-1qmfcQ0kRo-00R0wN for
 ; Sun, 03 Dec 2023 05:24:06 +0100
  Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with QMQP
id 0F8C9209D5; Sun,  3 Dec 2023 04:23:55 + (UTC)
  Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0413D20837
for ; Sun,
3 Dec 2023 04:23:42 + (UTC)
  Received: from bendel.debian.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (lists.debian.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 2525)
with ESMTP id 1Ym_tsLfWzf6 for ;
Sun,  3 Dec 2023 04:23:33 + (UTC)
  Received: from omta012.uswest2.a.cloudfilter.net
(omta012.uswest2.a.cloudfilter.net [35.164.127.235])
(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits))
(Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified))
by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A7BD209C6
for ; Sun,
3 Dec 2023 04:23:32 + (UTC)
  Received: from cxr.smtp.a.cloudfilter.net ([10.0.16.145])
by cmsmtp with ESMTP
id 9deErTpHpaga99e0vrCJA8; Sun, 03 Dec 2023 04:23:29 +
  Received: from axis.corp ([68.102.133.185])
by cmsmtp with ESMTPSA
id 9e0srwhHYTywR9e0urtWnm; Sun, 03 Dec 2023 04:23:29 +

All these headers except the first were added on the sender side, i.e
on the list server bendel.debian.org and in your mail provider's realm.

In a mail of mine to this list i see:

  Received: from bendel.debian.org ([82.195.75.100]) by mx-ha.gmx.net
(mxgmx009
[212.227.15.9]) with ESMTPS (Nemesis) id 1MMYsv-1qsRpG2aBT-00SPIm for
; Fri, 01 Dec 2023 21:11:45 +0100
  Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with QMQP
id 869AC20BB3; Fri,  1 Dec 2023 20:11:33 + (UTC)
  Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920DB20B9A
for ; Fri,
1 Dec 2023 20:11:22 + (UTC)
  Received: from bendel.debian.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (lists.debian.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 2525)
with ESMTP id g1fSuxvi8ZX9 for ;
Fri,  1 Dec 2023 20:11:19 + (UTC)
  Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15])
(using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)
 key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)
server-digest SHA256)
(Client did not present a certificate)
by bendel.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14F4520A27
for ; Fri,
1 Dec 2023 20:11:19 + (UTC)
  Received: from scdbackup.webframe.org ([91.8.169.164]) by mail.gmx.net
(mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id
1Mqs0R-1reJbZ24e1-00mwgO for ; Fri,
01 Dec 2023 21:11:16 +0100

So there is one mail relay hop more on your side, before the mail reaches
the Debian list server. I wonder whether this earns you the spam test
attribute HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS which i don't get in my mails:

  X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.0 required=4.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,

Re: Mailing List

[David Wright]

On Fri 01 Dec 2023 at 17:24:53 (+0100), Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> 
> > Anyone one else having trouble with the mailing list?
> 
> I got your message via the list.
> 
> > Have received any messages since Nov 30
> 
> Normal traffic yesterday and today, i'd say.
> 
> > I can not tell if I am still subscribed
> 
> The "From:" address poc...@columbus.rr.com seems not to be recognized as
> being subscribed.
> The message to which i reply bears no "LDOSUBSCRIBER":
> 
>   X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.7 required=4.0 tests=CAPINIT,HTML_MESSAGE,
> KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS,LDO_WHITELIST,META_ATTENDEES_DBSPAM1,
> RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
> version=3.4.2
> 
> Unlike examples of other messages from other sender to the list:
> 
>   X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.7 required=4.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,
> FOURLA,LDOSUBSCRIBER,LDO_WHITELIST,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,
> T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE,WORD_WITHOUT_VOWELS autolearn=unavailable
> autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2
> 
>   X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.7 required=4.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,
> DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2,FOURLA,FREEMAIL_FROM,
> HTML_MESSAGE,LDOSUBSCRIBER,LDO_WHITELIST,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,
> RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable
> autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2
> 
>   X-Spam-Status: No,
> score=-10.5 required=4.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,
> FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDOSUBSCRIBER,
> LDO_WHITELIST,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable
> autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2

I'm subscribed, but I don't receive that badge of honour.
This is from my other post in this thread—no LDOSUBSCRIBER:

>   X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.9 required=4.0 tests=CAPINIT,FOURLA,
> HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDO_WHITELIST,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,
> T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
> version=3.4.2

I'm guessing your last example is Curt's. The only occurrence of
the From: address in the entire email is in the From: line.
That's no different from my own post, except for the lines at the
very top, which show my post being delivered to me.

I had thought the server was using the envelope-from in order to
identify subscribers, yet Curt's posts, like mine, have different
envelope-from and From: addresses, which is presumably the reason
behind HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Mailing List

[Pocket]

On 12/1/23 11:36, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:

Pocket  wrote:

Anyone one else having trouble with the mailing list?

Have received any messages since Nov 30

I can not tell if I am still subscribed

I get

   Error: Overload

On thehttps://lists.debian.org/users.html  page



Looks like I was dropped from the list

It took me awhile to figure out but here is what I found


Send an email to: majord...@lists.debian.org

which 

in the message body

That will show what you are subscribed to

Then send and email to: majord...@lists.debian.org

subscribe 

in the message body

And you should get conformation.

Re: Mailing List

[tomas]

On Fri, Dec 01, 2023 at 08:39:51PM +, piorunz wrote:
> On 01/12/2023 16:15, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > > Your message is here, so you are subscribed :)
> > 
> > Not necessarily, you can post here as a non-subscriber. Actually I have
> > the hunch that the OP is not subscribed (going by the X-Spam-Status header).
> > 
> > Cheers
> 
> Oh, ok, I didn't know that. That's why the group receives so much spam
> lol -_-

I think this is unfair: given the list's volume (~3k members, ~0.5k posts
per month) I find spam ratio to be no less than stellar. I'm sure there is
quite a bit of quiet work behind the scenes to keep things running *that*
smoothly.

Keeping the list open to non-subscribers goes a long way of making Debian
itself open, so I understand and support that decision.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 1st December2023)

[tomas]

On Fri, Dec 01, 2023 at 07:30:47PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 01, 2023 at 08:18:13PM +0100, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > there is a new surplus word "private" in these lines:
> > 
> > > * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
> > >   private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
> > 
> > 
> > Have a nice day :)
> > 
> > Thomas
> >
> 
> OK, you know how it is when you only notice the mistake *after* you've
> posted it ... I'm unsure whether to republish this with an additional
> line
> 
> * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
>   and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.

:-)

Thanks you both (& so many others!) for shining steady lights here.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Mailing List

[Kamil Jońca]

piorunz  writes:

> On 01/12/2023 16:15, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>
>>> Your message is here, so you are subscribed :)
>>
>> Not necessarily, you can post here as a non-subscriber. Actually I have
>> the hunch that the OP is not subscribed (going by the X-Spam-Status header).
>>
>> Cheers
>
> Oh, ok, I didn't know that. That's why the group receives so much spam

No. This group does not has a lot of spam.
KJ

Re: Mailing List

[David Wright]

On Fri 01 Dec 2023 at 16:32:44 (+), Joe wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 17:12:56 +0100
> Marco Moock  wrote:
> > Am 01.12.2023 um 15:55:41 Uhr schrieb Joe:
> > 
> > > I received a message timed 22:52 on 28th, the last that day, the
> > > next three were on 29th at
> > > 08:39
> > > 13:14
> > > 15:55
> > > then normal flow was resumed, which is typically about 50 messages
> > > per day.
> > > 
> > > So yes, there was a problem.
> > > Times UTC by the way.  
> > 
> > IIRC the amount of messages varies depending on how much people take
> > part in discussions.
> > 
> > I don't think the current behavior is unusual.
> > 
> 
> No, it's fine now, but there definitely was a blockage on the 29th. It
> returned to normal about 16:00 UTC and has been OK since then.

I can certainly see the gap you mention—I got nothing from the
list between 2023-11-28 22:34:58+00:00 (arrived in ~Manchester
2023-11-28T22:35:24+00:00) and 2023-11-29 17:49:37+00:00
(arrived 2023-11-29T17:50:03+00:00) /unless/ I just happen
to have deleted everything in that period (unlikely as I have
the entirety of gene's thread).

Looking at everything I still have from the list over 28th/29th
(in Central time), I only see two trivial delays between posting
and delivery here: Felix M (~5 min) and Dan R (15 min). What I don't
see is any posts sent during that gap but delivered afterwards.

PS Your clock is ahead, Dan P.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Mailing List

[piorunz]

On 01/12/2023 16:15, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:


Your message is here, so you are subscribed :)


Not necessarily, you can post here as a non-subscriber. Actually I have
the hunch that the OP is not subscribed (going by the X-Spam-Status header).

Cheers


Oh, ok, I didn't know that. That's why the group receives so much spam
lol -_-


--
With kindest regards, Piotr.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 1st December2023)

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> * Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
>   and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.

Some wisdom cannot be repeated enough.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 1st December2023)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Fri, Dec 01, 2023 at 08:18:13PM +0100, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> there is a new surplus word "private" in these lines:
> 
> > * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
> >   private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
> 
> 
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas
>

OK, you know how it is when you only notice the mistake *after* you've
posted it ... I'm unsure whether to republish this with an additional
line

* Before posting, it may be useful to check your post for spelling mistakes
  and scan it for redundancy, duplicate words and redundancy.
 
With every good wish, as ever,

Andy

[amaca...@debian.org] 
 

Re: Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 1st December2023)

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

there is a new surplus word "private" in these lines:

> * Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
>   private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 1st December 2023)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french 

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* It is not necessary to answer every post on the mailing list. 
  Be constructive in your responses. It may be that somebody else answers
  a question before you - if so, you should not reply in order to get
  the last word in, only reply if you can add useful information.

* Clear replies and a short mailing list thread may be much easier to
  read than long threads.
 
* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient.

* Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit: private
  private conversations don't benefit people who may only be following
  along on the list or reading the archives later.

* It is helpful to write meaningful subject lines. If you change subject
  or emphasis in mid-thread, please change the subject line on the email
  accordingly.

* It may also be useful to post a summary email from time to time to
  explain long threads.

* It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue
  you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone 
  else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.
  Please note: advice on Linux distributions other than Debian may
  be inaccurate and, strictly, discussions of other distributions are
  off-topic here.

* Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
  welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
  do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not
  assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
  Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time
  is of the form:

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"

Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially
cached by Google and so on.

Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies
anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to
draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect"
See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

Re: Mailing List

[debian-user]

Pocket  wrote:
> Anyone one else having trouble with the mailing list?
> 
> Have received any messages since Nov 30
> 
> I can not tell if I am still subscribed
> 
> I get
> 
>   Error: Overload
> 
> On the https://lists.debian.org/users.html page

Your message made it to the list. Various people commented and you can
see them in the archive as well as your own post at:

https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/14a3f8ab-8475-45c2-ae1c-b05ab135c...@columbus.rr.com

FWIW, I haven't noticed anything strange but I haven't been observing
closely.

Re: Mailing List

[Joe]

On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 17:12:56 +0100
Marco Moock  wrote:

> Am 01.12.2023 um 15:55:41 Uhr schrieb Joe:
> 
> > I received a message timed 22:52 on 28th, the last that day, the
> > next three were on 29th at
> > 08:39
> > 13:14
> > 15:55
> > then normal flow was resumed, which is typically about 50 messages
> > per day.
> > 
> > So yes, there was a problem.
> > Times UTC by the way.  
> 
> IIRC the amount of messages varies depending on how much people take
> part in discussions.
> 
> I don't think the current behavior is unusual.
> 

No, it's fine now, but there definitely was a blockage on the 29th. It
returned to normal about 16:00 UTC and has been OK since then.

-- 
Joe

Re: Mailing List

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

> Anyone one else having trouble with the mailing list?

I got your message via the list.

> Have received any messages since Nov 30

Normal traffic yesterday and today, i'd say.

> I can not tell if I am still subscribed

The "From:" address poc...@columbus.rr.com seems not to be recognized as
being subscribed.
The message to which i reply bears no "LDOSUBSCRIBER":

  X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.7 required=4.0 tests=CAPINIT,HTML_MESSAGE,
KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS,LDO_WHITELIST,META_ATTENDEES_DBSPAM1,
RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
version=3.4.2

Unlike examples of other messages from other sender to the list:

  X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.7 required=4.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,
FOURLA,LDOSUBSCRIBER,LDO_WHITELIST,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,
T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE,WORD_WITHOUT_VOWELS autolearn=unavailable
autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2

  X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.7 required=4.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,
DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2,FOURLA,FREEMAIL_FROM,
HTML_MESSAGE,LDOSUBSCRIBER,LDO_WHITELIST,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,
RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable
autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2

  X-Spam-Status: No,
score=-10.5 required=4.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,
FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,LDOSUBSCRIBER,
LDO_WHITELIST,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=unavailable
autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2

> I get
>   Error: Overload
> On the https://lists.debian.org/users.html [lists.debian.org] page

That's quite a long page.
Try
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/12/threads.html
and your message at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/12/msg00028.html


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Mailing List

[tomas]

On Fri, Dec 01, 2023 at 03:24:33PM +, piorunz wrote:
> On 01/12/2023 15:05, Pocket wrote:
> > Anyone one else having trouble with the mailing list?
> > 
> > Have received any messages since Nov 30
> > 
> > I can not tell if I am still subscribed
> 
> Your message is here, so you are subscribed :)

Not necessarily, you can post here as a non-subscriber. Actually I have
the hunch that the OP is not subscribed (going by the X-Spam-Status header).

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Mailing List

[Marco Moock]

Am 01.12.2023 um 15:55:41 Uhr schrieb Joe:

> I received a message timed 22:52 on 28th, the last that day, the next
> three were on 29th at
> 08:39
> 13:14
> 15:55
> then normal flow was resumed, which is typically about 50 messages per
> day.
> 
> So yes, there was a problem.
> Times UTC by the way.

IIRC the amount of messages varies depending on how much people take
part in discussions.

I don't think the current behavior is unusual.

Re: Mailing List

[Marco Moock]

Am 01.12.2023 um 10:05:02 Uhr schrieb Pocket:

> I get
> 
> 
>   Error: Overload
> 
> On the https://lists.debian.org/users.html page

Works perfectly fine for me.

Re: Mailing List

[piorunz]

On 01/12/2023 15:05, Pocket wrote:

Anyone one else having trouble with the mailing list?

Have received any messages since Nov 30

I can not tell if I am still subscribed


Your message is here, so you are subscribed :)

--
With kindest regards, Piotr.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄

Mailing List

[Pocket]

Anyone one else having trouble with the mailing list?

Have received any messages since Nov 30

I can not tell if I am still subscribed

I get


 Error: Overload

On the https://lists.debian.org/users.html page


--
It's not easy to be me

Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (modified 1st November 2023)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french 

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
  others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
  may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.

* It is often useful to look through the archives to see whether the issue
  you wish to raise or a similar issue has been raised before by someone 
  else. The top level link to the archives of this list is at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ organised by year, then month.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

* Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
   welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
   do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not
   assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
   Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time
  is of the form:

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"

Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially
cached by Google and so on.

Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies
anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to
draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect"
See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (Unmodified August 2023)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french 

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
  others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
  may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

 * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
   welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
   do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not
   assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
   Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time
  is of the form:

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"

Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially
cached by Google and so on.

Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies
anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to
draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect"
See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[gene heskett]

On 8/14/23 12:24, zithro wrote:

On 12 Aug 2023 04:39, gene heskett wrote:

On 8/11/23 21:10, Larry Martell wrote:
Larry, whom I've known for 20 years, is only echoing.
  Are you really an engineer ?!


No, I am not an EE, but I am a Certified Electronics Technician, a 
much rarer breed of cat than your run of the mill EE.  We teach EE's 
how to get their hands dirty in the real world. Teaching them things 
their tenured by mistake prof's didn't.


Ok, so you should follow specs and best practices, right ?

Who is a random person to you? You’re new to this list, so you have 
no clue who is who here.


Thanks Larry. Take care & stay well, both of you.


The list is public since the start.

But I admit my post was misleading, lacking some transition between my 
objections to Gene and the remainder.


Gene is far from the random people I ranted about, and it doesn't take 
long to know he's rather a top poster, respectful and polite.


Gene, if you took it personnaly, I sincerely apologize.
That was really NOT my intent.

And I didn't take it that way, but I did try to fix the missing 
attribution.  NP IOW, take care & stay well.



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[davidson]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 Bret Busby wrote:

On 14/8/23 03:36, davidson wrote:

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 Andy Smith wrote:

Hello,

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 12:12:49AM +, davidson wrote:

The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's
threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find
irrelevant to my interests


Unfortunately no matter how advanced your MUA is, it doesn't help
against prolific posters who derail nearly every thread with
copious amounts of irrelevance and outright false information.


This is a higher bar than merely neutralising the disruption (to
one's own use of the list) caused by a popular thread that one has
little interest in.

And here, my instincts are screaming "Leave it here. Stop
now. Leave well enough alone for the sake of all that is holy!"

However, and speaking only for myself, I'll bite:

Being able to see a thread's messages structured as a tree of
message headers (author, subject) can indeed help me infer quite a
bit about what's going on, before I bother to dig in and actually
read any of the messages' content.

For example, let P and Q be two regularly prolific participants, P
with exceptionally high signal-to-noise contributions, and Q a hot
willfully clueless mess. If there is a branch of the tree that is
just a chain of back-and-forth between P and Q --Q.P.Q.P.Q...--
then I know what's going on in there and so some OTHER branch will
be my first destination, unless I'm in the mood for a laugh.


You can easily see from looking at most of the large threads here,
the points at which they go off the rails and the common factors
involved there.


I can indeed. Without seeing the tree structure, I do not think it
would be so easy to see.


It is a difficult problem to solve as mailing lists like this tend
to promote a volume-wins approach,


You may be correct, but this isn't clear to me. (Unless the object
of the game is to annoy the greatest number of participants.)


and the baseline user will not have an advanced MUA nor necessarily
the experience to know that they're reading nonsense.


When I conquer the world, you will know because /etc/motd will
contain something like this:

   Don't enter commands you don't understand, and you won't
   understand the commands unless you read the manual. If you read
   the manual, you STILL may not understand the
   commands. Nevertheless, keep trying, Curious Human. We are
   rooting for you!


Things get easier when you use an advanced MUA, so people should
invest the time to do so, but let's not pretend that this will avoid
a mega-thread next time some outlandish thread hijack by one of the
usual suspects happens.


My point was simply this: threads I've lost interest in (regardless
of size) are a single line in my mailbox, provided I do not delete
its initial message.


Does this particular thread go much better if you assume that
everyone participating (except the OP, who doesn't know how to
unsubscribe, or how to spell it) is fully competent at efficiently
managing email but still posts as they posted?


Funnily enough, if you look carefully, you can see some utterly
slapstick confusion of that very nature in this thread, over who is to
blame for posting a red-herring link to the Alpine Linux distro
mailing list:

%<---
 18159 Thursday   glenn green(6K) . UNUBSCRIBE
 ...   ............
[1] 18192 Yesterday  fjd (7K) .   |  \-Alpine was
[2] 18193 Yesterday  Bret Busby  (8K) .   ||-Re: Alpi
[6] 18194  5:55  fjd (7K) || |-Re: Al
[7] 18195  6:11  fjd (8K) || \-Re: Al
[3] 18196 Yesterday  Jeffrey Walton  (7K) .   |\-Re: Alpi
[4] 18197 Yesterday  Greg Wooledge   (5K) .   |  \-Re: Al
[5] 18198  2:41  Bret Busby  (9K) .   |\-Re:
 18199 Yesterday  David Wright   (6K) |  \-Re

--->%

Somebody requests a link to an alpine MUA forum or mailing list.
  [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00333.html

Somebody posts a link to an alpine MUA mailing list.
  [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00341.html

Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning
the linux distro called Alpine Linux.
  [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html

Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they
have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view
is illuminating.
  [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html

And then the person who had posted the CORRECT link in the first
place apologises for posting the wrong one, and posts the very same
corr

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[davidson]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 Jeffrey Walton wrote:

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 4:33 PM davidson  wrote:

[...]
Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning
the linux distro called Alpine Linux.
 [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html

Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they
have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view
is illuminating.
 [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html
[...]
(The person who really HAD posted the red herring says nothing.)


What would you have me say? Greg made the correction.


I laid out the details of the process leading to the three-car
miscommunication pileup because it serves as a handy illustrative
example, in response to a question about whether knowledge of thread
structure could affect participant decisions.

Description, not prescription. I'm not here to tell consenting adults
what to do.


Do you really need more fodder from me?


Nope. For my part I am fully up to speed.

But have you noticed the other fellow in this thread, who is now
calling me a malicious liar for giving you all the credit, and openly
fantasising about how underground debian justice-league ninjas are
about to break into my house, delete my account, and swap the taps in
my shower?

Looks like I'm in for a real Amélie Poulain job, it does. But the
joke's on him; I get the taps confused every time anyways, so at worst
I won't notice a thing.


But I'll give you what you want...


I'm not a priest. And, just for the record since you seem to have read
me otherwise, I happen to think everyone's behavior so far has been
pretty normal human behavior, given reasonable assumptions about what
each knew at the time of their respective contributions.

The sheer normality of it is what makes it a good example, and perfect
comedy.


I sincerely apologize for posting an incorrect link to an Alpine
mailing list.  I am so sorry I troubled you for it.  I hope you can
find it in your heart to forgive me for the transgression, and the
inconvenience I caused to all members of the list.


I welcome your evident sarcasm here as a sign that we both agree that
the miscommunication event in question was a very normal one.

--
Hackers are free people. They are like artists. If they are in a good
mood, they get up in the morning and begin painting their pictures.
-- Vladimir Putin

Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[zithro]

On 12 Aug 2023 04:39, gene heskett wrote:

On 8/11/23 21:10, Larry Martell wrote:
Larry, whom I've known for 20 years, is only echoing.
  Are you really an engineer ?!


No, I am not an EE, but I am a Certified Electronics Technician, a much 
rarer breed of cat than your run of the mill EE.  We teach EE's how to 
get their hands dirty in the real world. Teaching them things their 
tenured by mistake prof's didn't.


Ok, so you should follow specs and best practices, right ?

Who is a random person to you? You’re new to this list, so you have no 
clue who is who here.


Thanks Larry. Take care & stay well, both of you.


The list is public since the start.

But I admit my post was misleading, lacking some transition between my 
objections to Gene and the remainder.


Gene is far from the random people I ranted about, and it doesn't take 
long to know he's rather a top poster, respectful and polite.


Gene, if you took it personnaly, I sincerely apologize.
That was really NOT my intent.

--
++
zithro / Cyril

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Bret Busby]

On 14/8/23 03:36, davidson wrote:

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 Andy Smith wrote:

Hello,

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 12:12:49AM +, davidson wrote:

The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's
threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find
irrelevant to my interests


Unfortunately no matter how advanced your MUA is, it doesn't help
against prolific posters who derail nearly every thread with copious
amounts of irrelevance and outright false information.


This is a higher bar than merely neutralising the disruption (to one's
own use of the list) caused by a popular thread that one has little
interest in.

And here, my instincts are screaming "Leave it here. Stop now. Leave
well enough alone for the sake of all that is holy!"

However, and speaking only for myself, I'll bite:

Being able to see a thread's messages structured as a tree of message
headers (author, subject) can indeed help me infer quite a bit about
what's going on, before I bother to dig in and actually read any of
the messages' content.

For example, let P and Q be two regularly prolific participants, P
with exceptionally high signal-to-noise contributions, and Q a hot
willfully clueless mess. If there is a branch of the tree that is just
a chain of back-and-forth between P and Q --Q.P.Q.P.Q...-- then I know
what's going on in there and so some OTHER branch will be my first
destination, unless I'm in the mood for a laugh.


You can easily see from looking at most of the large threads here,
the points at which they go off the rails and the common factors
involved there.


I can indeed. Without seeing the tree structure, I do not think it
would be so easy to see.


It is a difficult problem to solve as mailing lists like this tend
to promote a volume-wins approach,


You may be correct, but this isn't clear to me. (Unless the object of
the game is to annoy the greatest number of participants.)


and the baseline user will not have an advanced MUA nor necessarily
the experience to know that they're reading nonsense.


When I conquer the world, you will know because /etc/motd will contain
something like this:

   Don't enter commands you don't understand, and you won't understand
   the commands unless you read the manual. If you read the manual, you
   STILL may not understand the commands. Nevertheless, keep trying,
   Curious Human. We are rooting for you!


Things get easier when you use an advanced MUA, so people should
invest the time to do so, but let's not pretend that this will avoid
a mega-thread next time some outlandish thread hijack by one of the
usual suspects happens.


My point was simply this: threads I've lost interest in (regardless of
size) are a single line in my mailbox, provided I do not delete its
initial message.


Does this particular thread go much better if you assume that
everyone participating (except the OP, who doesn't know how to
unsubscribe, or how to spell it) is fully competent at efficiently
managing email but still posts as they posted?


Funnily enough, if you look carefully, you can see some utterly
slapstick confusion of that very nature in this thread, over who is to
blame for posting a red-herring link to the Alpine Linux distro
mailing list:

%<--
 18159 Thursday   glenn green   (6K) . UNUBSCRIBE
 ...   ......   ......
[1] 18192 Yesterday  fjd   (7K) .   |   \-Alpine was
[2] 18193 Yesterday  Bret Busby(8K) .   | |-Re: Alpi
[6] 18194  5:55  fjd   (7K) | | |-Re: Al
[7] 18195  6:11  fjd   (8K) | | \-Re: Al
[3] 18196 Yesterday  Jeffrey Walton(7K) .   | \-Re: Alpi
[4] 18197 Yesterday  Greg Wooledge (5K) .   |   \-Re: Al
[5] 18198  2:41  Bret Busby(9K) .   | \-Re:
 18199 Yesterday  David Wright  (6K) |   
\-Re
-->%

Somebody requests a link to an alpine MUA forum or mailing list.
  [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00333.html

Somebody posts a link to an alpine MUA mailing list.
  [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00341.html

Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning
the linux distro called Alpine Linux.
  [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html

Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they
have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view
is illuminating.
  [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html

And then the person who had posted the CORRECT link in the first place
apologises for posting the wrong one, and posts the very same corr

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 4:33 PM davidson  wrote:
> [...]
> Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning
> the linux distro called Alpine Linux.
>  [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html
>
> Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they
> have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view
> is illuminating.
>  [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html
> [...]
> (The person who really HAD posted the red herring says nothing.)

What would you have me say? Greg made the correction. Do you really
need more fodder from me?

But I'll give you what you want... I sincerely apologize for posting
an incorrect link to an Alpine mailing list. I am so sorry I troubled
you for it. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for the
transgression, and the inconvenience I caused to all members of the
list.

Jeff

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[davidson]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 12:12:49AM +, davidson wrote:
>> The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's
>> threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find
>> irrelevant to my interests
>
> Unfortunately no matter how advanced your MUA is, it doesn't help
> against prolific posters who derail nearly every thread with copious
> amounts of irrelevance and outright false information.

This is a higher bar than merely neutralising the disruption (to one's
own use of the list) caused by a popular thread that one has little
interest in.

And here, my instincts are screaming "Leave it here. Stop now. Leave
well enough alone for the sake of all that is holy!"

However, and speaking only for myself, I'll bite:

Being able to see a thread's messages structured as a tree of message
headers (author, subject) can indeed help me infer quite a bit about
what's going on, before I bother to dig in and actually read any of
the messages' content.

For example, let P and Q be two regularly prolific participants, P
with exceptionally high signal-to-noise contributions, and Q a hot
willfully clueless mess. If there is a branch of the tree that is just
a chain of back-and-forth between P and Q --Q.P.Q.P.Q...-- then I know
what's going on in there and so some OTHER branch will be my first
destination, unless I'm in the mood for a laugh.

> You can easily see from looking at most of the large threads here,
> the points at which they go off the rails and the common factors
> involved there.

I can indeed. Without seeing the tree structure, I do not think it
would be so easy to see.

> It is a difficult problem to solve as mailing lists like this tend
> to promote a volume-wins approach,

You may be correct, but this isn't clear to me. (Unless the object of
the game is to annoy the greatest number of participants.)

> and the baseline user will not have an advanced MUA nor necessarily
> the experience to know that they're reading nonsense.

When I conquer the world, you will know because /etc/motd will contain
something like this:

  Don't enter commands you don't understand, and you won't understand
  the commands unless you read the manual. If you read the manual, you
  STILL may not understand the commands. Nevertheless, keep trying,
  Curious Human. We are rooting for you!

> Things get easier when you use an advanced MUA, so people should
> invest the time to do so, but let's not pretend that this will avoid
> a mega-thread next time some outlandish thread hijack by one of the
> usual suspects happens.

My point was simply this: threads I've lost interest in (regardless of
size) are a single line in my mailbox, provided I do not delete its
initial message.

> Does this particular thread go much better if you assume that
> everyone participating (except the OP, who doesn't know how to
> unsubscribe, or how to spell it) is fully competent at efficiently
> managing email but still posts as they posted?

Funnily enough, if you look carefully, you can see some utterly
slapstick confusion of that very nature in this thread, over who is to
blame for posting a red-herring link to the Alpine Linux distro
mailing list:

%<--
18159 Thursday   glenn green   (6K) . UNUBSCRIBE
...   ......   ......
[1] 18192 Yesterday  fjd   (7K) .   |   \-Alpine was
[2] 18193 Yesterday  Bret Busby(8K) .   | |-Re: Alpi
[6] 18194  5:55  fjd   (7K) | | |-Re: Al
[7] 18195  6:11  fjd   (8K) | | \-Re: Al
[3] 18196 Yesterday  Jeffrey Walton(7K) .   | \-Re: Alpi
[4] 18197 Yesterday  Greg Wooledge (5K) .   |   \-Re: Al
[5] 18198  2:41  Bret Busby(9K) .   | \-Re:
18199 Yesterday  David Wright  (6K) |   \-Re
------>%

Somebody requests a link to an alpine MUA forum or mailing list.
 [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00333.html

Somebody posts a link to an alpine MUA mailing list.
 [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00341.html

Somebody else posts a red-herring link, to a mailing list concerning
the linux distro called Alpine Linux.
 [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00355.html

Then Greg points out, in reply to the red-herring poster, that they
have posted a red herring. <-- Here is where the tree structure view
is illuminating.
 [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/08/msg00356.html

And then the person who had posted the CORRECT link in the first place
apologise

Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Curt]

On 2023-08-12, Jeffrey Walton  wrote:
>
> In the US, the banks are laxed. Banks claim they don't want to lose
> customers with inconveniences. I understand things are different from
> Europe.

It's a two-edged sword, though: I had to purchase a new smart phone in
order to continue banking with one French bank, because I could no
longer update their app with my old one; the enforcement of the fairly
recent security regulations for online banking here involve methods that
generally, and conceivably invariably, require you to possess a fairly
recent device.

> In the US, risk is democratized and reward is privatized. Shareholders
> get the losses and executives get the bonuses. No skin off the
> executive's backs if the bank or the customer loses money due to
> fraud.
>
> Jeff
>
>


-- 

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 12:12:49AM +, davidson wrote:
> The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's
> threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find
> irrelevant to my interests

Unfortunately no matter how advanced your MUA is, it doesn't help
against prolific posters who derail nearly every thread with copious
amounts of irrelevance and outright false information.

You can easily see from looking at most of the large threads here,
the points at which they go off the rails and the common factors
involved there.

It is a difficult problem to solve as mailing lists like this tend
to promote a volume-wins approach, and the baseline user will not
have an advanced MUA nor necessarily the experience to know that
they're reading nonsense.

Things get easier when you use an advanced MUA, so people should
invest the time to do so, but let's not pretend that this will avoid
a mega-thread next time some outlandish thread hijack by one of the
usual suspects happens. Does this particular thread go much better if
you assume that everyone participating (except the OP, who doesn't
know how to unsubscribe, or how to spell it) is fully competent at
efficiently managing email but still posts as they posted?

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sat, Aug 12, 2023 at 10:18 AM Andrew M.A. Cater  wrote:
> [...]
> No one of us is perfect: the temptation to just add a bit more when you
> are irritated or something is wrong on the internet can be very strong.
>
> Obligatory xkcd cartoon: https://xkcd.com/386

Yeah, some threads refuse to die. Some folks just won't let things go.
Other folks just ignore what they are told, which causes everyone to
repeat themselves. And then there's the hydras - threads that spawn
multiple threads that won't die. Ugh...

I'm subscribed to a lot of lists. I think debian-users is the worst
when it comes to run-on threads.

Jeff

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[davidson]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 davidson wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 Bret Busby wrote:
> [snip]
>> Hello.
>> 
>> Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and the 
>> "unubscribe" thread?
>
> In alpine, I have a filter rule that moves all debian-user messages
> from my inbox to a dedicated folder.
>
> Here is a sample of what I see in alpine, when I view the contents of
> that mail folder, in threaded mode with threads collapsed:

Flowed text garbled the snapshots a little.

%<--
18284  9:42  Hans  (7K)   Re: libkscreenlocker5:
  N 18285 Yesterday  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1
  N 18288 15:45  Erwan David   (8K) > Swap size in debain 12
    18292 12:35  Greg Wooledge (7K)   Re: Mailing list unsub
* N 18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink (6K) > Sound loses my analog 
*   18298 Thursday   glenn green   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE
  N 18332 11:44  Piscium   (7K) > Cannot install Debian
  N 18339 13:45  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Time stamps on session
*   18342 14:49  gene heskett  (6K) > setting up network wit
-->%

%<--
18284  9:42  Hans  (7K)   Re: libkscreenlocker5:
  N 18285 Yesterday  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1
  N 18288 15:45  Erwan David   (8K) > Swap size in debain 12
18292 12:35  Greg Wooledge (7K)   Re: Mailing list unsub
*   18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink (6K) . Sound loses my analog 
*   18294 Thursday   Marco (5K) . \-Re: Sound loses my a
18295 Yesterday  Carl Fink(30K) .   \-Re: Sound loses my
18296  5:05  Marco (5K) . \-Re: Sound loses
  N 18297 14:49  Carl Fink (6K) \-Re: Sound lose
*   18298 Thursday   glenn green   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE
  N 18332 11:44  Piscium   (7K) > Cannot install Debian
  N 18339 13:45  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Time stamps on session
*   18342 14:49  gene heskett  (6K) > setting up network wit
-->%

-- 
Hackers are free people. They are like artists. If they are in a good
mood, they get up in the morning and begin painting their pictures.
-- Vladimir Putin

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[davidson]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 Bret Busby wrote:
[snip]

Hello.

Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and the 
"unubscribe" thread?


In alpine, I have a filter rule that moves all debian-user messages
from my inbox to a dedicated folder.

Here is a sample of what I see in alpine, when I view the contents of
that mail folder, in threaded mode with threads collapsed:

%<--
18284  9:42  Hans  (7K)   Re: libkscreenlocker5:
  N 18285 Yesterday  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1
  N 18288 15:45  Erwan David   (8K) > Swap size in debain 12
18292 12:35  Greg Wooledge     (7K)   Re: Mailing list unsub
* N 18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink (6K) > Sound loses my analog 
*   18298 Thursday   glenn green   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE

  N 18332 11:44  Piscium   (7K) > Cannot install Debian
  N 18339 13:45  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Time stamps on session
*   18342 14:49  gene heskett  (6K) > setting up network wit
-->%

All 34 messages (at this time) to the UNUBSCRIBE thread are collapsed;
only the OP's initial message is visible. As long as I retain the
thread-initial message, subsequent contributions to that thread will
be invisible, in this collapsed view.

If a thread interests me, say Carl Fink's, I can expand it:

%<--
18284  9:42  Hans  (7K)   Re: libkscreenlocker5:
  N 18285 Yesterday  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Crosshairs in gimp 2.1
  N 18288 15:45  Erwan David   (8K) > Swap size in debain 12
18292 12:35  Greg Wooledge (7K)   Re: Mailing list unsub
*   18293 Wednesday  Carl Fink (6K) . Sound loses my analog 
*   18294 Thursday   Marco (5K) . \-Re: Sound loses my a

18295 Yesterday  Carl Fink(30K) .   \-Re: Sound loses my
18296  5:05  Marco (5K) . \-Re: Sound loses
  N 18297 14:49  Carl Fink (6K) \-Re: Sound lose
*   18298 Thursday   glenn green   (6K) > UNUBSCRIBE
  N 18332 11:44  Piscium   (7K) > Cannot install Debian
  N 18339 13:45  pe...@easthope.ca (6K) > Time stamps on session
*   18342 14:49  gene heskett  (6K) > setting up network wit
-->%

But if a thread does *not* interest me, I don't expand it, and then
the only visible effect of subsequent contributions to that thread is
to promote the thread down the list (since threads nearer the bottom
are more recently active).




[snip]
So, please, shut the two threads down, so the mailing list can return to the 
subject matter for which the list was created and is maintained; discussion 
of the use of Debian, and, seeking help with the operating system, and, not 
the extraneous (extreme euphemism) "stuff", that has arisen, like a living, 
growing, cesspool.


The foregoing demonstration is meant to show how, using alpine's
threaded mode, I minimise my irritation with threads that I find
irrelevant to my interests: I view debian-user in threaded mode with
collapsed threads, and simply do not expand the ones that don't
concern me.

I believe these are the config settings I use to enable this:

...
[X]  Thread Sorts by Arrival
...
Sort Key  =
SetSort Options
---  --
( )  Subject
( )  Arrival
( )  From
( )  To
( )  Cc
( )  Date
( )  siZe
( )  OrderedSubj
( )  scorE
(*)  tHread
( )  Reverse Subject
( )  Reverse Arrival
( )  Reverse From
( )  Reverse To
( )  Reverse Cc
( )  Reverse Date
( )  Reverse siZe
( )  Reverse OrderedSubj
( )  Reverse scorE
( )  Reverse tHread
...
Threading Display Style   =
SetRule Values
---  --
( )  none
(*)  show-thread-structure(default)
( )  mutt-like
( )  indent-subject-1
( )  indent-subject-2
( )  indent-from-1
( )  indent-from-2
( )  show-structure-in-from
...
Threading Index Style =
SetRule Values
---  --
  

Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 11:17 PM David Wright  wrote:
>
> On Fri 11 Aug 2023 at 17:39:28 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:
> > On 8/11/23 14:25, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 10:59:14AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > > The recommended procedure usually works, unless the user is now using a
> > > > different browser or has installed a new version of the OS.
> > >
> > > Sorry, Gene, this is plain wrong. The way it works is this:
> > >
> > No its not Tomas, everytime ff issues an update, I have to go thru all
> > the bs of proving I am me to my bank, and its been that way for at
> > least a decade. The fact that I have a nearly 30 character pw it would
> > take eons to guess, doesn't mean a thing to them.
>
> If you only have to type your password monthly in order to login,
> that suggests your bank has a very lax security model. I presume
> you never actively logout when you've finished the day's business.
>
> Many banks nowadays use two factor authentication, and automatically
> log you out after a period of inactivity. Furthermore, they often
> require reauthentication in order to make any withdrawals.

In the US, the banks are laxed. Banks claim they don't want to lose
customers with inconveniences. I understand things are different from
Europe.

In the US, risk is democratized and reward is privatized. Shareholders
get the losses and executives get the bonuses. No skin off the
executive's backs if the bank or the customer loses money due to
fraud.

Jeff

Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[gene heskett]

On 8/12/23 12:18, Curt wrote:

On 2023-08-12, Larry Martell  wrote:




Larry didn't write the next quote, he was echoing the OP which I snipped.


Who is a random person to you? You're new to this list, so you have
  no clue
who is who here.




Larry did write this:


Gene may be many things, but he's not random. He's *old*, though, so I
think certain breaks are to be given on that account.

But what I want to know is: if you misspell "unsubscribe" in your
subscription cancellation email to the appropriate Debian user list
address, what happens?




Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Aug 12, 2023 at 04:17:33PM -, Curt wrote:
> But what I want to know is: if you misspell "unsubscribe" in your
> subscription cancellation email to the appropriate Debian user list
> address, what happens?

Just tried it.  The misspelled request is not processed, and you get
a generic "how to use this service" message.  See below.


On Sat, Aug 12, 2023 at 04:32:00PM +, debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
wrote:
>   General info
>   
> Subscription/unsubscription/info requests should always be sent to
> the -request address of a mailing list.
> 
> If a mailing list is called for example "thel...@lists.debian.org", then
> the -request address can be inferred from this to be:
> "thelist-requ...@lists.debian.org".
> 
> To subscribe to a mailing list, simply send a message with the word 
> "subscribe"
> in the Subject: field to the -request address of that list.
> 
> To unsubscribe from a mailing list, simply send a message with the word (you
> guessed it :-) "unsubscribe" in the Subject: field to the -request address of
> that list.
> 
> In the event of an address change, it would probably be the wisest to first
> send an unsubscribe for the old address (this can be done from the new
> address), and then a new subscribe to the new address (the order is 
> important).
> 
> Most (un)subscription requests are processed automatically without human
> intervention.
> 
> Do not send multiple (un)subscription or info requests in one mail.
> Only one will be processed per mail.
> 
> NOTE: The -request server usually does quite a good job in discriminating
>   between (un)subscribe requests and messages intended for the maintainer.
>   If you'd like to make sure a human reads your message, make it look
>   like a reply (i.e. the first word in the Subject: field should be "Re:",
>   without the quotes of course); the -request server does not react to
>   replies.
> 
> 
>   The archive server
>   --
> Every submission sent to this list is archived.The size of the archive
> depends on the limits set by the list maintainer (it is very well possible
> that only, say, the last two mails sent to the list are still archived, the
> rest might have expired).
> 
> You can look at the header of every mail coming from this list to see
> under what name it has been archived.  The X-Mailing-List: field contains
> the mailaddress of the list and the file in which this submission was
> archived.
> 
> If you want to access this archive, you have to send mails to the -request
> address with the word "archive" as the first word of your Subject:.
> To get you started try sending a mail to the -request address with
> the following:
>   Subject: archive help
> 
> 
>   The listmaster
>   --
> To reach a human being answering your mail you may contact the address
> listmas...@lists.debian.org.  We will process your request as soon as
> we can.
> 
> Mail sent to this address is pre-parsed, a little mail robot will
> automatically answer all mails sent with the following Subject lines:
> 
>   helpsends this help
> 
>   lists   sends information on how to get a list of mailing lists

Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Curt]

On 2023-08-12, Larry Martell  wrote:
>
>
> Who is a random person to you? You're new to this list, so you have
>  no clue
> who is who here.
>

Gene may be many things, but he's not random. He's *old*, though, so I
think certain breaks are to be given on that account. 

But what I want to know is: if you misspell "unsubscribe" in your
subscription cancellation email to the appropriate Debian user list
address, what happens?

Re: List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sat, Aug 12, 2023 at 08:53:43AM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> Hello.
> 
> Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and the
> "unubscribe" thread?
> 

Sadly, this list isn't fully moderated: the only way to stop any particular
thread is not to contribute to it.

I spend some time monitoring in case threads become acrimonious: I also
post an FAQ here once a month reminding folk here of the Debian Code of
Conduct.

It's probably worth another reminder, formally, from me as a member of
the Debian Community Team, that people posting to the list are respectfully
asked to abide by the Code of Conduct. Be polite, be constructive, be
helpful - don't fan the flames of flame wars.

No one of us is perfect: the temptation to just add a bit more when you
are irritated or something is wrong on the internet can be very strong.

Obligatory xkcd cartoon: https://xkcd.com/386

It's also quite easy to criticise the perpetrators of long threads: the easiest
way to stop them is not to add to them.

I could always add the how to unsubscribe to the FAQ - but if people don't read
mail headers and footers on the list, they won't read the FAQ either :(


> 
> So, please, shut the two threads down, so the mailing list can return to the
> subject matter for which the list was created and is maintained; discussionWW
> of the use of Debian, and, seeking help with the operating system, and, not
> the extraneous (extreme euphemism) "stuff", that has arisen, like a living,
> growing, cesspool.
> 
> Thank you in anticipation
> 

With every good wish, as ever,

Andy Cater

[amaca...@debian.org]
For the Debian Community Team
> ..
> Bret Busby
> Armadale
> West Australia
> (UTC+0800)
> ..
> 

Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 05:39:28PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> On 8/11/23 14:25, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 10:59:14AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > The recommended procedure usually works, unless the user is now using a
> > > different browser or has installed a new version of the OS.
> > 
> > Sorry, Gene, this is plain wrong. The way it works is this:
> > 
> No its not Tomas, everytime ff issues an update, I have to go thru all the
> bs of proving I am me to my bank,

You just moved the goalpost: the Debian mailing lists are not your
bank. Whatever your bank does... I think I don't want to know that.

The current context was the Debian mailing list. Not your bank. Not
some dystopian lock-in software for some (at first cheap) hardware.
Not anything else.

Try to keep things apart, Gene. That eases discussions.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[David Wright]

On Fri 11 Aug 2023 at 17:39:28 (-0400), gene heskett wrote:
> On 8/11/23 14:25, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 10:59:14AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > The recommended procedure usually works, unless the user is now using a
> > > different browser or has installed a new version of the OS.
> > 
> > Sorry, Gene, this is plain wrong. The way it works is this:
> > 
> No its not Tomas, everytime ff issues an update, I have to go thru all
> the bs of proving I am me to my bank, and its been that way for at
> least a decade. The fact that I have a nearly 30 character pw it would
> take eons to guess, doesn't mean a thing to them.

If you only have to type your password monthly in order to login,
that suggests your bank has a very lax security model. I presume
you never actively logout when you've finished the day's business.

Many banks nowadays use two factor authentication, and automatically
log you out after a period of inactivity. Furthermore, they often
require reauthentication in order to make any withdrawals.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[gene heskett]

On 8/11/23 21:10, Larry Martell wrote:
Larry, whom I've known for 20 years, is only echoing.
 Are you really an engineer ?!


No, I am not an EE, but I am a Certified Electronics Technician, a much 
rarer breed of cat than your run of the mill EE.  We teach EE's how to 
get their hands dirty in the real world. Teaching them things their 
tenured by mistake prof's didn't.


Who is a random person to you? You’re new to this list, so you have no 
clue who is who here.


Thanks Larry. Take care & stay well, both of you.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Larry Martell]

On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 6:03 PM zithro  wrote:

> On 11 Aug 2023 23:39, gene heskett wrote:
> > No its not Tomas, everytime ff issues an update, I have to go thru all
> > the bs of proving I am me to my bank, and its been that way for at least
> > a decade.
>
> With all due respect, can you stop spreading misinformation to this list ?
> Not only this has nothing to do with unsubscribing to the ML, but it
> just shows that you don't get what you're talking about.
> Are you really an engineer ?!
>
> This extends to : DONT FOLLOW TUTORIALS THAT WONT EXPLAIN THE **WHY**
>
> Also, I admire dedicated people on this ML ...
> It's only 3 months I'm following it regularly, to learn things about
> Debian.
> What did I learn ? Random people SUCK. Big time


Who is a random person to you? You’re new to this list, so you have no clue
who is who here.

List administrators - request for intervention - was - Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Bret Busby]

On 12/8/23 08:08, zithro wrote:

On 11 Aug 2023 23:39, gene heskett wrote:
No its not Tomas, everytime ff issues an update, I have to go thru all 
the bs of proving I am me to my bank, and its been that way for at 
least a decade.


With all due respect, can you stop spreading misinformation to this list ?
Not only this has nothing to do with unsubscribing to the ML, but it 
just shows that you don't get what you're talking about.

Are you really an engineer ?!

This extends to : DONT FOLLOW TUTORIALS THAT WONT EXPLAIN THE **WHY**

Also, I admire dedicated people on this ML ...
It's only 3 months I'm following it regularly, to learn things about 
Debian.

What did I learn ? Random people SUCK. Big time.

But I guess it's the XXI century plague.
People using other people's time to spare their own.

Sorry for the noise, if you get that oxymoron ;)


Hello.

Could the List administrators please shut down both this thread and the 
"unubscribe" thread?


I believe that sufficient has been said, and, enough faecal matter has 
been spread (and, I am not referring to the poster above, in that), and, 
explicit instructions for how to unsubscribe, have been posted, and, if 
some subscribers need to be told how to input the name of this mailing 
list ("If you look at that black rectangle in front of you, with those 
white markings on it, that is named a keyboard. On that thing, if you 
look along the rows of the markings, you should be able to see one 
marking, that looks a bit like a half circle on the right hand side, 
and, it has a straight line running up the left had side of that half 
circle. that marking is named a 'D'. If you press that, you should be 
able to see  the 'd' character on you computer screen. Can you see that? 
Very good. Now, the next  marking to look for, is for an "E". That is 
the next character in the name of the mailing list"), then, perhaps, 
they need help, that is more than how to unsubscribe from the mailing 
list, and, both threads have been made to descend into the ridiculous, 
and, have started invoking ill-will, that helps no-one.


So, please, shut the two threads down, so the mailing list can return to 
the subject matter for which the list was created and is maintained; 
discussion of the use of Debian, and, seeking help with the operating 
system, and, not the extraneous (extreme euphemism) "stuff", that has 
arisen, like a living, growing, cesspool.


Thank you in anticipation

..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..

Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[zithro]

On 11 Aug 2023 23:39, gene heskett wrote:
No its not Tomas, everytime ff issues an update, I have to go thru all 
the bs of proving I am me to my bank, and its been that way for at least 
a decade.


With all due respect, can you stop spreading misinformation to this list ?
Not only this has nothing to do with unsubscribing to the ML, but it 
just shows that you don't get what you're talking about.

Are you really an engineer ?!

This extends to : DONT FOLLOW TUTORIALS THAT WONT EXPLAIN THE **WHY**

Also, I admire dedicated people on this ML ...
It's only 3 months I'm following it regularly, to learn things about Debian.
What did I learn ? Random people SUCK. Big time.

But I guess it's the XXI century plague.
People using other people's time to spare their own.

Sorry for the noise, if you get that oxymoron ;)

--
++
zithro / Cyril

Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Bret Busby]

On 12/8/23 06:45, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 05:39:28PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

On 8/11/23 14:25, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 10:59:14AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

[...]


The recommended procedure usually works, unless the user is now using a
different browser or has installed a new version of the OS.


Sorry, Gene, this is plain wrong. The way it works is this:


No its not Tomas, everytime ff issues an update, I have to go thru all the
bs of proving I am me to my bank, and its been that way for at least a
decade. The fact that I have a nearly 30 character pw it would take eons to
guess, doesn't mean a thing to them.


Your bank's authentication policy has NOTHING AT ALL to do with
unsubscribing from a mailing list.



And, I fail to see how a web browser version or operating system version 
influences the response to a subscriber doing as instructed;


"
To subscribe to or unsubscribe from a mailing list, please send mail to

-requ...@lists.debian.org

with the word subscribe or unsubscribe as subject.
"



I say again - "If all else fails, follow the instructions.".

Simple.

..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..

Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 05:39:28PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> On 8/11/23 14:25, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 10:59:14AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > The recommended procedure usually works, unless the user is now using a
> > > different browser or has installed a new version of the OS.
> > 
> > Sorry, Gene, this is plain wrong. The way it works is this:
> > 
> No its not Tomas, everytime ff issues an update, I have to go thru all the
> bs of proving I am me to my bank, and its been that way for at least a
> decade. The fact that I have a nearly 30 character pw it would take eons to
> guess, doesn't mean a thing to them.

Your bank's authentication policy has NOTHING AT ALL to do with
unsubscribing from a mailing list.

Re: Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[gene heskett]

On 8/11/23 14:25, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 10:59:14AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

[...]


The recommended procedure usually works, unless the user is now using a
different browser or has installed a new version of the OS.


Sorry, Gene, this is plain wrong. The way it works is this:

No its not Tomas, everytime ff issues an update, I have to go thru all 
the bs of proving I am me to my bank, and its been that way for at least 
a decade. The fact that I have a nearly 30 character pw it would take 
eons to guess, doesn't mean a thing to them.



  1. you send the mailing list software an unsubscription
request for a specific mail address: either by sending
a mail or by performing a HTTP GET on a specific URL
(aka "clicking on a link")

  2. the mailing list software sends a mail (containing a
token) to confirm the unsubscription request; you can
again reply by mail or "click on a link" (see above).
In both cases, the confirmation contains this token.

Note that it is in step 2 where you prove that you have "control
over the mail address in question", meaning that you can read
mails sent to this address, because otherwise you wouldn't know
the token.

No browser identification or other mysterious OS stuff going on
here. Plain, simple and working since 30-40 years.

The only way you can "lose" the capability to unsubscribe is
if you "lose control" over your mail addres. But then, Someone
Else is getting the debian-user@ mails, and unsubscription
becomes Someone Else's problem. Big deal.

The only way Someone Else can unsubscribe you from debian-user@
is if Someone Else has read access to your inbox. But then, if
you don't trust Someone Else, you've got bigger troubles than
Just Being Unsubscribed From Some Random Public Mailing List.

furrfu.

Cheers


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/>

Mailing list unsubscription requests and identificatio

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 11, 2023 at 10:59:14AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

[...]

> The recommended procedure usually works, unless the user is now using a
> different browser or has installed a new version of the OS.

Sorry, Gene, this is plain wrong. The way it works is this:

 1. you send the mailing list software an unsubscription
   request for a specific mail address: either by sending
   a mail or by performing a HTTP GET on a specific URL
   (aka "clicking on a link")

 2. the mailing list software sends a mail (containing a
   token) to confirm the unsubscription request; you can
   again reply by mail or "click on a link" (see above).
   In both cases, the confirmation contains this token.

Note that it is in step 2 where you prove that you have "control
over the mail address in question", meaning that you can read
mails sent to this address, because otherwise you wouldn't know
the token.

No browser identification or other mysterious OS stuff going on
here. Plain, simple and working since 30-40 years.

The only way you can "lose" the capability to unsubscribe is
if you "lose control" over your mail addres. But then, Someone
Else is getting the debian-user@ mails, and unsubscription
becomes Someone Else's problem. Big deal.

The only way Someone Else can unsubscribe you from debian-user@
is if Someone Else has read access to your inbox. But then, if
you don't trust Someone Else, you've got bigger troubles than
Just Being Unsubscribed From Some Random Public Mailing List.

furrfu.

Cheers
-- 
tomás


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Description: PGP signature

Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french 

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
  others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
  may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

 * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
   welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
   do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not
   assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
   Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time
  is of the form:

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"

Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially
cached by Google and so on.

Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies
anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to
draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect"
See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (unmodified 1st July)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french 

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
  others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
  may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

 * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
   welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
   do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not
   assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
   Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time
  is of the form:

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"

Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially
cached by Google and so on.

Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies
anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to
draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect"
See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing list (unmodified April 1)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french 

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
  others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
  may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

 * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
   welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
   do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not
   assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
   Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time
  is of the form:

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"

Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially
cached by Google and so on.

Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies
anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to
draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect"
See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[Stefan Monnier]

>> If I'm not wrong, RFC compliance may even be required in some areas (via
>> contracts).
> That might happen, but it wouldn't be a great idea from a legal
> standpoint: RFCs are often ambiguous in surprising ways.

Most contracts are ambiguous in surprising ways anyway :-)


Stefan

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[Dan Ritter]

zithro wrote: 
> On 13 Apr 2023 01:15, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > zithro wrote:
> > > On 12 Apr 2023 22:15, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > 
> > > RFCs are there for having a common ground, right ?
> > 
> > Sort of.
> > 
> > At various meetings, a grad student was "volunteered" to take
> > notes. Not quite certain of how accurately he had transcribed
> > things, he typed up "Request For Comments" at the top and sent
> > around copies.
> 
> The student was Jon Postel, right ? (RIP dude, you did us good !)

Steve Crocker, who is still with us. Jon took the role of editor
shortly thereafter.

The story is told in RFC1000

https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1000.txt

> > Since then, the IETF RFC Editor has established that some RFCs
> > are for noting what people are doing, some are for making
> > proposals, and some are "standards track" which are expected to
> > have compatible implementations.
> 
> I guess I wrongly think RFC are standards, whereas it's only a "work in
> common" ?

"Standards Track" RFCs start as proposals, and if they get
consensus and multiple implementations -- especially
interworking implementations -- you can treat them as standards.

But there are almost always interpretations, options, and
experimental extensions. If you want to see a really nailed-down
standard, consider WireGuard.

> But isn't the IETF "standardizing" protocols ? I mean it in ISO terms.
> (playword by chance ^^).

Interesting that you should bring up the polar opposite of the
IETF in the 'standards' world. The ISO starts by appointing a
group of experts, publishes a standard, and charges for access.
The IETF brings together interested volunteers, publishes many
revisions until a consensus is reached, and gives them away for
free.

> > > If I'm not wrong, RFC compliance may even be required in some areas (via
> > > contracts).
> > 
> > That might happen, but it wouldn't be a great idea from a legal
> > standpoint: RFCs are often ambiguous in surprising ways.
> 
> Oh, good to know. Do you have an example at hand ?

Nearly everything about IMAP. In the most trivial possible conflict:
try to figure out the difference in expected behavior, if any, between
folders in the default namespace called Trash, Junk, and Spam?


> So I just use the usual software (postfix/dovecot), and should be good to go
> ? No fear of loosing mails, either sending or receiving ?

Let's say that the postfix/dovecot duo are capable of doing all
the standard things that people want a mail system to do, or at
worst can be extended in reasonably documented ways.

Somebody else on the Internet is always doing something stupid, 
something malicious, and something arguably correct but
different. With postfix and dovecot, you'll have as good a
chance as anyone else to get things right.


-dsr-

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[zithro]

On 13 Apr 2023 01:15, Dan Ritter wrote:

zithro wrote:

On 12 Apr 2023 22:15, Greg Wooledge wrote:

RFCs are there for having a common ground, right ?


Sort of.

At various meetings, a grad student was "volunteered" to take
notes. Not quite certain of how accurately he had transcribed
things, he typed up "Request For Comments" at the top and sent
around copies.


The student was Jon Postel, right ? (RIP dude, you did us good !)


Since then, the IETF RFC Editor has established that some RFCs
are for noting what people are doing, some are for making
proposals, and some are "standards track" which are expected to
have compatible implementations.


I guess I wrongly think RFC are standards, whereas it's only a "work in 
common" ?

But isn't the IETF "standardizing" protocols ? I mean it in ISO terms.
(playword by chance ^^).


If I'm not wrong, RFC compliance may even be required in some areas (via
contracts).


That might happen, but it wouldn't be a great idea from a legal
standpoint: RFCs are often ambiguous in surprising ways.


Oh, good to know. Do you have an example at hand ?

(I admit my memory lost the info about which RFC compliance I talked 
about. Maybe some TCP/IP related stuff, and/or related to comms in space 
? Or was it "just compliance" but not in legal terms ? Really don't 
remember).





Like should I ignore all those non-standards stuff when setting it ?
Or should I handle them in the config ?


The surprising thing about the Internet is how well it works,
considering how many different interpretations people have
committed into code.


Be conservative in what you send, be liberal in what you receive ? (:
(the infamous Jon Postel quote, may be inaccurate as extracted from memory)

So I just use the usual software (postfix/dovecot), and should be good 
to go ? No fear of loosing mails, either sending or receiving ?
(I'm only talking about the protocols themselves, not things like DNSBL, 
spamhaus, etc).

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[Dan Ritter]

zithro wrote: 
> On 12 Apr 2023 22:15, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> RFCs are there for having a common ground, right ?

Sort of.

At various meetings, a grad student was "volunteered" to take
notes. Not quite certain of how accurately he had transcribed
things, he typed up "Request For Comments" at the top and sent
around copies.

Since then, the IETF RFC Editor has established that some RFCs
are for noting what people are doing, some are for making
proposals, and some are "standards track" which are expected to
have compatible implementations.

> If I'm not wrong, RFC compliance may even be required in some areas (via
> contracts).

That might happen, but it wouldn't be a great idea from a legal
standpoint: RFCs are often ambiguous in surprising ways.

> Like should I ignore all those non-standards stuff when setting it ?
> Or should I handle them in the config ?

The surprising thing about the Internet is how well it works,
considering how many different interpretations people have
committed into code.

-dsr-

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[zithro]

On 12 Apr 2023 22:15, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 10:04:42PM +0200, zithro wrote:

So it seems that, despite (incomplete?) standards, each provider
(in the whole mail chain, MUA, MTA, etc) "does what he wants" ?


Why do you sound surprised?  This is how everything works.  Everything.


I tend to agree AND disagree about "everything" ^^
[Reminds me of the discussion about categorization which happened on
this ML a few days ago, about perl iirc ; ) ]

RFCs are there for having a common ground, right ?
If I'm not wrong, RFC compliance may even be required in some areas (via 
contracts).


Are you referring to "extending standards w/o making it a
standard" (read: intellectual property and market advantage) ?
Or something else ?

Because now we're at it, I am trying to understand the caveats
of the whole mail system stuff.
Setting it up for a local/personal network was easy, but it's
another beast when getting public (IMHO).

Like should I ignore all those non-standards stuff when setting it ?
Or should I handle them in the config ?

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[zithro]

On 12 Apr 2023 19:20, John Hasler wrote:

zithro writes:

To not have to handle issues with security or availability of an own
mail server.


I use pobox.com's paid service. Email is their business.  I run Postfix
locally using the Pobox server as a smarthost and use Fetchmail to
download my mail every five minutes.  Best of both worlds, and I have my
own domain so that I can easily relocate to another service with minimal
disruption.  I don't want to rely on a promotional giveaway from an
advertising agency for an important service like email.


I totally get your point, after all Google is the biggest advertising
company.
And I admit I hate using it with personal/private emails.
But *only* considering public mailing list, I fail to understand how it
is a problem (I'm also not using the webmail version).
And thanks for sharing how you're using mail services.


Google's engineers are way better than me ; )


Perhaps, but Google is an advertising agency and they are giving away the
service you are using.  The revenue per user that they get by extracting
marketable data from their user's emails has to be slim, and that has to
pay those engineers.  How is their support?  How quickly do they respond
to trouble reports?

And, of course, you have no contract with Google.


True, I'm only using their free tier offer ("free for personal use").
I don't want to act like I promote google, but their support is
reactive, even for "free" users like me.
This summer, I failed to realize there was a change in their product.
You had to "transfer" your account to still use the free tier, before a 
date, or else you'd loose the service for good (i was shaking a bit ^^).
A month after the due date, I kindly asked them if they could still 
"keep me" and transfer the service to the "new free offer".

A day after, mails were working again.

Ok, I agree that some of their policies are invasive to say the least.
But it's the price to pay for convenience.
In this world, except air, what's *really* free ? ^^

Take Youtube for example.
Everyone is happy that it exists, yet who is paying for it ?
From what I've read, Youtube is (was?) loosing money.
Ads are, unfortunately, a necessary evil those days.
I'm not saying I like this business model though, but, again,
it's convenient.

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 10:04:42PM +0200, zithro wrote:
> So it seems that, despite (incomplete?) standards, each provider
> (in the whole mail chain, MUA, MTA, etc) "does what he wants" ?

Why do you sound surprised?  This is how everything works.  Everything.

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[zithro]

[Note: I snipped everything for easier read, and
replied to the most recent email]

Thank you all for your constructive answers !
This was a really interesting read.

So it seems that, despite (incomplete?) standards, each provider
(in the whole mail chain, MUA, MTA, etc) "does what he wants" ?

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[zithro]

On 12 Apr 2023 19:56, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 06:40:45PM +0200, zithro wrote:

[...]


But they don't work for you.


Well, in a sense, yes, and freely ^^


You don't want to be convinced


No, that's not how life works. How pretentious is that sentence ...

Nonetheless, I'm still curious about your thoughts.
Talking is the number one prerogative of security services.
With, and especially with, your ennemies ! ("The gatekeepers" movie)



[...]


Ah ah, this answer ... "I know but I'll keep it for myself". Very nice !
BTW, security by obscurity is a delusion.


   Zuboff, Shoshana (2019).
   The Age of Surveillance Capitalism: The Fight for a
   Human Future at the New Frontier of Power.
   London: Profile Books.
   ISBN 978-1-78125-685-5 [1]


If only you were less cryptic I could answer.


Please don't and let's put this to rest.


It's a public mailing list.
A place to *discuss*.
A place to *exchange knowledge*.

I care and listen about knowledge and opinions from *anyone*.
It does not mean I agree or disagree with them.

In this post, you're only posting opinions (rather aggressively and
pretentiously), but zero knowledge or technical information which can 
help or inform other people.


Thanks for the book though, will take a look. Is it like a technical 
1984 ("Big Brother") ?


Also, if someone knows what he's talking about, I'd be glad to
read it. I mean technical or non-technical facts -and- opinions.

Sharing is caring.
Peace.

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[tomas]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 02:16:08PM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 2:06 PM  wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 02:02:39PM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > If you wish to wander from the convention, then don't be surprised
> > > when unexpected things happen.
> >
> > Unexpected things happen to me all the time -- the least of them are
> > related to Message-IDs. My Message-IDs are fine, thankyouverymuch :)
> 
> ???
> 
> Still it doesn't make much sense discarding incoming
> messages which match the IDs of outgoing ones.
> 
> Does it make sense now, or are switching arguments? A red-herring
> fallacy is a diversionary tactic.

Sorry. I don't understand. I'll leave it at that. Diminishing
returns etc.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Mailing list usage questions

[David Wright]

On Wed 12 Apr 2023 at 14:02:39 (-0400), Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 1:52 PM  wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 12:38:37PM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 10:12 PM The Wanderer  
> > > wrote:
> > > > ...
> > > > Some mail services apparently treat this "discard incoming messages that
> > > > look like duplicates of ones you already have a copy of" behavior as a
> > > > feature; Gmail is the best-known example. That has problems when (as
> > > > with this mailing list) the incoming copy is not identical to the one
> > > > that was sent, even though it has the same Message-ID, but AFAIK they
> > > > don't seem to care.
> > >
> > > I believe Message-Id's are supposed to be unique across space and
> > > time. It sounds like discarding the duplicate is expected behavior (to
> > > me).
> >
> > Still it doesn't make much sense discarding incoming messages which
> > match the IDs of outgoing ones.
> 
> Most (nearly all?) mail agents follow the RFCs. The RFCs say a
> Message-Id is unique across space and time. A duplicate Message-Id
> means a duplicate message.
> 
> If you wish to wander from the convention, then don't be surprised
> when unexpected things happen.

  Note: There are many instances when messages are "changed", but
  those changes do not constitute a new instantiation of that
  message, and therefore the message would not get a new message
  identifier.  For example, when messages are introduced into the
  transport system, they are often prepended with additional header
  fields such as trace fields (described in section 3.6.7) and
  resent fields (described in section 3.6.6).  The addition of such
  header fields does not change the identity of the message and
  therefore the original "Message-ID:" field is retained.  In all
  cases, it is the meaning that the sender of the message wishes to
  convey (i.e., whether this is the same message or a different
  message) that determines whether or not the "Message-ID:" field
  changes, not any particular syntactic difference that appears (or
  does not appear) in the message.

  (RFC 5322)

I don't see the bit about "discard".

If your MUA were to discard any message it saw twice, you'd never
receive a bounce, and would be mystified about what was happening
to those messages. If your Mail Submission Agent or any Mail
Transport Agent along the way discarded "duplicates", how would
you send the same message to more than one recipient? Ditto for
your own MTA receiving messages for users on your system.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[John Conover]

to...@tuxteam.de writes:
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 12:38:37PM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 10:12 PM The Wanderer  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > ...
> > > Some mail services apparently treat this "discard incoming messages that
> > > look like duplicates of ones you already have a copy of" behavior as a
> > > feature; Gmail is the best-known example. That has problems when (as
> > > with this mailing list) the incoming copy is not identical to the one
> > > that was sent, even though it has the same Message-ID, but AFAIK they
> > > don't seem to care.
> > 
> > I believe Message-Id's are supposed to be unique across space and
> > time. It sounds like discarding the duplicate is expected behavior (to
> > me).
>

FWIW, DKIM is not mailing list friendly. The DKIM signatures are from
the list, and does not match the sender domain name, preventing DKIM
authentication, even though the Message-ID:, References:, In-Reply-To:
SMTP header records are correct.

Exactly how the MTA handles this situation is kind of undocumented, and
left up to the MTA's configuration, which varies from one philosophy
to the next.

John

-- 

John Conover, cono...@panix.com, http://www.johncon.com/

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 2:06 PM  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 02:02:39PM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > If you wish to wander from the convention, then don't be surprised
> > when unexpected things happen.
>
> Unexpected things happen to me all the time -- the least of them are
> related to Message-IDs. My Message-IDs are fine, thankyouverymuch :)

???

Still it doesn't make much sense discarding incoming
messages which match the IDs of outgoing ones.

Does it make sense now, or are switching arguments? A red-herring
fallacy is a diversionary tactic.

Jeff

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[Brad Rogers]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 12:38:37 -0400
Jeffrey Walton  wrote:

Hello Jeffrey,

>I don't think I would blame GMail for that. Maybe it's the sender's MUA?

It's well known that google discard what they see as 'duplicate'
messages.  It is nothing to do with the sender's MUA.

Always remember google's 'email' offering is non-RFC compliant in
various areas, and should therefore be treated with suspicion.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
Only the wounded remain, the generals have all left the game
Generals - The Damned


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Re: Mailing list usage questions

[tomas]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 02:02:39PM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote:

[...]

> If you wish to wander from the convention, then don't be surprised
> when unexpected things happen.

Unexpected things happen to me all the time -- the least of them are
related to Message-IDs. My Message-IDs are fine, thankyouverymuch :)

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Mailing list usage questions

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 1:52 PM  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 12:38:37PM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 10:12 PM The Wanderer  wrote:
> > >
> > > ...
> > > Some mail services apparently treat this "discard incoming messages that
> > > look like duplicates of ones you already have a copy of" behavior as a
> > > feature; Gmail is the best-known example. That has problems when (as
> > > with this mailing list) the incoming copy is not identical to the one
> > > that was sent, even though it has the same Message-ID, but AFAIK they
> > > don't seem to care.
> >
> > I believe Message-Id's are supposed to be unique across space and
> > time. It sounds like discarding the duplicate is expected behavior (to
> > me).
>
> Still it doesn't make much sense discarding incoming messages which
> match the IDs of outgoing ones.

Most (nearly all?) mail agents follow the RFCs. The RFCs say a
Message-Id is unique across space and time. A duplicate Message-Id
means a duplicate message.

If you wish to wander from the convention, then don't be surprised
when unexpected things happen.

Jeff

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[tomas]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 06:40:45PM +0200, zithro wrote:

[...]

> > But they don't work for you.
> 
> Well, in a sense, yes, and freely ^^

You don't want to be convinced, I don't want to be convinced,
so let's be nice to the rest of humankind and shut up now.

[...]

> Ah ah, this answer ... "I know but I'll keep it for myself". Very nice !
> BTW, security by obscurity is a delusion.

  Zuboff, Shoshana (2019).
  The Age of Surveillance Capitalism: The Fight for a
  Human Future at the New Frontier of Power.
  London: Profile Books.
  ISBN 978-1-78125-685-5 [1]

> If only you were less cryptic I could answer.

Please don't and let's put this to rest.

Cheers
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshana_Zuboff#Surveillance_capitalism
-- 
t


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Re: Mailing list usage questions

[tomas]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 12:38:37PM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 10:12 PM The Wanderer  wrote:
> >
> > ...
> > Some mail services apparently treat this "discard incoming messages that
> > look like duplicates of ones you already have a copy of" behavior as a
> > feature; Gmail is the best-known example. That has problems when (as
> > with this mailing list) the incoming copy is not identical to the one
> > that was sent, even though it has the same Message-ID, but AFAIK they
> > don't seem to care.
> 
> I believe Message-Id's are supposed to be unique across space and
> time. It sounds like discarding the duplicate is expected behavior (to
> me).

Still it doesn't make much sense discarding incoming messages which
match the IDs of outgoing ones.

I do have a filter on duplicate IDs, but (a) the cache is limited (for
a good reason, some incompetent implementations *cough* Microsoft
*cough*) still seem to get that wrong, and (b) I don't put outgoing
messages in there, for another good reason (on mailing lists, I see
that the message has made it *and* my threading works "naturally").

> I don't think I would blame GMail for that. Maybe it's the sender's MUA?

I /would/ blame them for that if there weren't far worse things
to blame them for,

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Mailing list usage questions

[John Hasler]

zithro writes:
> To not have to handle issues with security or availability of an own
> mail server.

I use pobox.com's paid service. Email is their business.  I run Postfix
locally using the Pobox server as a smarthost and use Fetchmail to
download my mail every five minutes.  Best of both worlds, and I have my
own domain so that I can easily relocate to another service with minimal
disruption.  I don't want to rely on a promotional giveaway from an
advertising agency for an important service like email.

> Google's engineers are way better than me ; )

Perhaps, but Google is an advertising agency and they are giving away the
service you are using.  The revenue per user that they get by extracting
marketable data from their user's emails has to be slim, and that has to
pay those engineers.  How is their support?  How quickly do they respond
to trouble reports?

And, of course, you have no contract with Google.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 10:12 PM The Wanderer  wrote:
>
> ...
> Some mail services apparently treat this "discard incoming messages that
> look like duplicates of ones you already have a copy of" behavior as a
> feature; Gmail is the best-known example. That has problems when (as
> with this mailing list) the incoming copy is not identical to the one
> that was sent, even though it has the same Message-ID, but AFAIK they
> don't seem to care.

I believe Message-Id's are supposed to be unique across space and
time. It sounds like discarding the duplicate is expected behavior (to
me).

I don't think I would blame GMail for that. Maybe it's the sender's MUA?

Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message-ID .

Jeff

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[zithro]

On 12 Apr 2023 18:12, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 06:00:25PM +0200, zithro wrote:

On 12 Apr 2023 11:21, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 08:23:23AM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 21:08:51 +
"Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:

Hello Andrew,


If you are subscribed to the mailing list and you post, you should see
a copy turn up in your mailing list mails


Unless your email provider is google, or somebody covertly using google.


Now why would you want to do that?

Cheers


To not have to handle issues with security or availability of
an own mail server.
Google's engineers are way better than me ; )


But they don't work for you.


Well, in a sense, yes, and freely ^^

Concerning *security* only, so *not privacy*, I trust them way more than
any random sysadmin in his den, including me (who followed security
courses).
I suggest reading some of Mitnick's books, and how he had fun with
some AT servers.
Comparing entire security teams with an enthousiast is ... out of this 
world.





What's the problem letting Google or w/e email service reading
emails from a *public* mailing list ?


If you don't understand the problems I think I won't be able to
explain them to you. There's good literature out there.


Ah ah, this answer ... "I know but I'll keep it for myself". Very nice !
BTW, security by obscurity is a delusion.

If only you were less cryptic I could answer.
The mails in my mailbox contain the exact same data as can be found on
"lists.debian.org". They're both mirrors.
So AI training works the same, if that's what you're implying.

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[tomas]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 06:00:25PM +0200, zithro wrote:
> On 12 Apr 2023 11:21, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 08:23:23AM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 21:08:51 +
> > > "Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:
> > > 
> > > Hello Andrew,
> > > 
> > > > If you are subscribed to the mailing list and you post, you should see
> > > > a copy turn up in your mailing list mails
> > > 
> > > Unless your email provider is google, or somebody covertly using google.
> > 
> > Now why would you want to do that?
> > 
> > Cheers
> 
> To not have to handle issues with security or availability of
> an own mail server.
> Google's engineers are way better than me ; )

But they don't work for you.

> What's the problem letting Google or w/e email service reading
> emails from a *public* mailing list ?

If you don't understand the problems I think I won't be able to
explain them to you. There's good literature out there.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Mailing list usage questions

[zithro]

On 12 Apr 2023 11:21, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 08:23:23AM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 21:08:51 +
"Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:

Hello Andrew,


If you are subscribed to the mailing list and you post, you should see
a copy turn up in your mailing list mails


Unless your email provider is google, or somebody covertly using google.


Now why would you want to do that?

Cheers


To not have to handle issues with security or availability of
an own mail server.
Google's engineers are way better than me ; )

What's the problem letting Google or w/e email service reading
emails from a *public* mailing list ?

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[zithro]

On 12 Apr 2023 13:54, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote:

If you are subscribed to the mailing list and you post, you should see
a copy turn up in your mailing list mails


Unless your email provider is google, or somebody covertly using google.


Now why would you want to do that?


I have experience. Gmail eat one message if that is duplicated.


Thanks, that's what's happening !

So you just move your own emails from "Sent" to the "ML folder" ?

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[zithro]

On 12 Apr 2023 04:12, The Wanderer wrote:

Some mail services apparently treat this "discard incoming messages that
look like duplicates of ones you already have a copy of" behavior as a
feature; Gmail is the best-known example. That has problems when (as
with this mailing list) the incoming copy is not identical to the one
that was sent, even though it has the same Message-ID, but AFAIK they
don't seem to care.



Thanks for the details ! This is exactly what's happening.

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[Byung-Hee HWANG]

>> >If you are subscribed to the mailing list and you post, you should see
>> >a copy turn up in your mailing list mails 
>> 
>> Unless your email provider is google, or somebody covertly using google.
>
> Now why would you want to do that?

I have experience. Gmail eat one message if that is duplicated.

Sincerely,

-- 
^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[tomas]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 08:23:23AM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 21:08:51 +
> "Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:
> 
> Hello Andrew,
> 
> >If you are subscribed to the mailing list and you post, you should see
> >a copy turn up in your mailing list mails 
> 
> Unless your email provider is google, or somebody covertly using google.

Now why would you want to do that?

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Mailing list usage questions

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 21:08:51 +
"Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:

Hello Andrew,

>If you are subscribed to the mailing list and you post, you should see
>a copy turn up in your mailing list mails 

Unless your email provider is google, or somebody covertly using google.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
You destroyed my confidence, you broke my nerve
Nervous Wreck - Radio Stars


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Re: Mailing list usage questions

[Thomas Hochstein]

Tom Furie wrote:

> It occurs to me that I'm not even aware of what list management
> software these lists are managed with anymore.

|  All original Debian mailing lists are run on a special server, using an
|  automatic mail processing software called SmartList. 


-thh

Re: Mailing list usage questions

[The Wanderer]

On 2023-04-11 at 16:22, zithro wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> I have two questions about the Debians ML usage.
> 
> 1. when subscribing, the confirmation message says "By default, copies 
> of your own submissions will be returned."
> What is the meaning of "default" and "returned" here ?
> I understand that I should get my own replies. But I never get them.

Are you A: running your own mail system, or B: using an
externally-hosted mail service, either Ba: directly or Bb: under a
personal domain?

Some mail services apparently treat this "discard incoming messages that
look like duplicates of ones you already have a copy of" behavior as a
feature; Gmail is the best-known example. That has problems when (as
with this mailing list) the incoming copy is not identical to the one
that was sent, even though it has the same Message-ID, but AFAIK they
don't seem to care.

If you're using an external mail service which does have that behavior,
then that would probably explain what you're seeing.

If you aren't using an external mail service, or are using one which
doesn't have that behavior (i.e., if e.g. messages sent to other mailing
lists to which you are subscribed do come back to you), then there's
probably a different problem and it would be warranted to dig deeper.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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