Re: [likely out of luck]

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Richard Owlet wrote:
> I'm having problems problems with:
>   font and icon sizes

Look in the configuration for "DefaultFont", "WindowFont", "Style.*Font",
"IconFont", "Style.*IconFont".

Icon size might be "Style .* Iconsize". I don't have that one in my
configuration.


Warning:
The default icon of xterm takes input and executes shell commands. Eeek !

I disabled this by giving it a pixmap for the icon:
--
Style "XTerm"   IconOverride
Style "XTerm"   Icon display.xpm
--


>   setting wallpaper/background color

I have in my fvwm2 configuration a block that defines initial actions:
--
AddToFunc InitFunction
 +  "I" Module FvwmBanner
 +  "I" Exec xterm -ls -geometry +150+85
 +  "I" Module FvwmButtons
 +  "I" Exec xli -onroot -fillscreen -border 
/usr/share/X11/fvwm2/pixmaps/slate.gif
 +  "I" Module FvwmCommandS
--

The root window is set by executing program "xli".
Further i get a first xterm window and a few Fvwm-applications.


> I find menu items which should address my preferences.
> Some don't do anything.
> Some don't give wide enough selection, particularly wallpaper

You will have to find where those menus are defined in the configuration.

E.g. i see a mysterious item "Keyboardclicks" which is a menu with three
items.
In .fvwm2rc i have
--
AddToMenu settings_kbdclick_popup "Keyboardclicks"   Title
 + "hard"   Exec xset c 100
 + "Off"Exec xset c off
 + "soft"   Exec xset c on
--
So if i chose "Off", program "xset" is executed with arguments "c" and
"off".

If you want you menu items to do something, then you will tell them
which program or script to start with which options.
(As said, fvwm brings few own applications which are also quite lean.)


For interactive experiments before modifying the configuration:

The module "FvwmCommandS" in my InitFunction enables shell command
"FvwmCommand". Its man page says:
  FvwmCommand lets you monitor fvwm transaction and  issue  fvwm  command
  from  a shell command line or scripts.  FvwmCommand takes each argument
  as a fvwm command. Quotes can be used to send commands including spaces.
FvwmCommand 'FvwmPager 0 1'
 

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [likely out of luck]

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/17/2018 01:46 PM, John Hasler wrote:

See 

and 

The basic difference, though, is that a desktop environment tries to
enforce uniformity and coordinated aesthetics on all applications in the
Microsoft and Apple way while a window manager manages windows.

Look at fvwm-crystal.



I looked
I liked
I loaded-- used Synaptic to install from repository
I launched

I'm having problems problems with:
  font and icon sizes
  setting wallpaper/background color

I find menu items which should address my preferences.
Some don't do anything.
Some don't give wide enough selection, particularly wallpaper

As lvwm was also installed I'll see it will lead me.
I've a collection of lvwm sites to check for hints.
Suggestions?

Thanks

Re: [ROFL] cross product [CAVEAT LECTOR] -- Re: [likely out of luck]

[John Hasler]

You can map it all to two dimensions.  I can think of my system as
consisting a square array of 4 workspaces each subdivided into 16
panes so that becomes an 8x8 array of panes.  I find the 3D view more
convenient, though.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [likely out of luck]

[John Hasler]

 Thomas Schmitt writes:
> So the visible window title might be a good first guess.

That usually works, but be careful.  Some ornery applications ignore
Unix and X11 conventions and resources and/or retitle themselves.
Firefox is a prime example.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

[ROFL] cross product [CAVEAT LECTOR] -- Re: [likely out of luck]

[Richard Owlett]

If you think that subject line is weird
  U B right
It was intentional ;/

I just closed tooo many windows.

Someone had just referred me to two Wikipedia articles with 
2-dimensional pictorial representations of a multi-dimensional problem.


Any one familiar with "Flatland" ?

This is  placeholder until I recover ;/

Re: [likely out of luck]

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

John Hasler wrote:
> An icon is a window.  Windows are only sticky if you make them so.

Ahum ... i see this line in my configuration
  Style   "*" StickyIcon
and man fvwm says
  StickyIcon makes the window sticky when it's iconified.
  It de-iconifies on top the active desktop.  SlipperyIcon
  reverts back to the default.

So
  Style richards-matrix-algebra SlipperyIcon
would confine the icon of program richards-matrix-algebra to the screen
where it was iconified.

Question is how to determine the program name.
man fvwm says:
  Style stylename options ...
stylename can be a window's name, class, visible name, or
resource string.  It may contain the wildcards '*' and '?',
which are matched in the usual Unix filename manner.
So the visible window title might be a good first guess.

There are 9000+ interesting text lines more in man fvwm.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [likely out of luck]

[John Hasler]

Thomas Schmitt writes:
> It seems you are looking for non-sticky icons.  I'm not sure whether i
> could talk fvwm2 into doing that.

An icon is a window.  Windows are only sticky if you make them so.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [likely out of luck]

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Richard Owlett wrote:
> I'm getting the impression that:
>  1. a window manager can manage several desktops.
>  2. each desktop may or may not have an associated desktop environment.

Be careful with the term "desktop". It is used in several differing
meanings. From "screenful of stuff" to "highly integrated and complete GUI".


>   2. all could be different configurations of MATE such that
> a. one desktop would only have program icons for creating
>documents.
> b. one would only have program icons for doing matrix algebra.
> c. one would only have program icons for web browsing and email.

It seems you are looking for non-sticky icons.
I'm not sure whether i could talk fvwm2 into doing that.

Maybe you should look for some GUI construction set by which you can build
simple GUI programs which offer buttons to start the desired programs
like icons would do.
Each screen would get its own such program. Non-sticky, of course.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [likely out of luck]

[David Wright]

On Sat 17 Feb 2018 at 13:22:52 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 02/17/2018 10:13 AM, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> >Google for "fvwm2rc". It is rewarding to add the word "examples".
> >
> >My experience with installing Debian package fvwm2 two years ago would
> >have been much worse if i did not have the file ~/.fvwm2rc from my eight
> >year older workstation. Actually i carry it from system to system since
> >a SuSE installation in year 2000.

I'd probably agree with you. Actually, it's about time I rerevised
my ~/.fvwm/config and family. It still starts with:

# Configuration file for FVWM 2.xx originally by Lars Wirzenius
# modifications by Julian Gilbey , copyright March 1999
# adopeted for fvwm 2.4 by Alexander Kotelnikov  August 2001
[sic  ↑]

> >Fvwm is not a desktop like KDE or Gnome but rather a window manager,
> >which nowadays is only a smaller part of the desktop goals.
> >It offers no GUI library and thus has no fat applications depending on it.
> >If you use KDE or Gnome applications then you pull in half of their very
> >many libraries.
> >
> >Fvwm is software for people who don't want look-and-feel to change for
> >the mere reason that another decade went by.
> >One has to customize it by editing the configuration file, not by
> >drag-and-drop. It is best used with a zillion xterm windows and a few
> >inavoidable GUI programs like web browser or PDF reader.
> >
> >I simply love it.
> >
> 
> This is a general question about the relationship of "window
> managers" and "desktop environments".
> 
> I'm getting the impression that:
>   1. a window manager can manage several desktops.

There's room for enormous confusion with terminology here.
Desks, desktops, pages, panes, panels, screens, viewports, windows:
these are all parts of fvwm or have been used somewhere to describe
it. They don't map straight onto the same words as used by other
WMs and DEs.

>   2. each desktop may or may not have an associated desktop environment.

That's kind of the inverse. A typical DE will have, as part of it, a
window manager of some sort, to manage its windows, duh. But it'll
have a lot more, and as you have read here in the recent past, there's
a tendency of DEs to feel that they have to manage the entire system
on their own terms, negating many of the traditions that we have
"grown up with". (Even those of us that came to unix late, like linux.)

A typical WM is a much lighter affair (and the laptop I'm currently
typing on is about the first PC I've had that wouldn't be completely
overwhelmed by a DE installation.

> If a window manager launches 3 desktops:
>   1. there need not be any relationship between the 3 desktop
>  environments.
>   2. all could be different configurations of MATE such that
>  a. one desktop would only have program icons for creating
> documents.
>  b. one would only have program icons for doing matrix algebra.
>  c. one would only have program icons for web browsing and email.
> 
> How many fallacies or misunderstanding above?

That sounds like what you're gunning for, but I wouldn't know how
to achieve it. I don't use icons¹ but xterms. They're scattered over
a large 5x4 desktop so I'm looking at 1/20th of it at any time.
I use them in a fairly disciplined way, so the top row tend to be
ssh'd to my headless server, where I typing this email.
The rightmost column has my browsers (me at the top, for finance etc,
next is my general browser as a different user) and various monitors,
players and tools. If I need a local root session, I use /bin/su -
in the bottom left corner.

A lot of the xterms will be running mc, and a few might be running
emacs -nw. Windowed emacsen will have their own windows in addition,
as will xpdf instances, images, and so on.

Some things "stick" to the screen whichever part of the desktop I'm
on, like the swissclock and date, and of course the pager. The last
is in a small window that also has buttons for screenshots, ditto
after a ten-second wait (to capture things like dragging in action),
and video capture.

When I had a real job, I had a lower resolution 2x2 desktop on
old junk VDU for ssh connections to university servers (ie anything
I didn't administer) including for mutt (and before that, Pine).

Summing up, work is arranged geographically over the desktop, with
a tiny representation of everything on the pager in the corner.
One doesn't spend time watching animations of windows maximising
and minimising back and forth.

¹ unless I accidentally iconify it.

Cheers,
David.

Re: [likely out of luck]

[John Hasler]

See 

and 

The basic difference, though, is that a desktop environment tries to
enforce uniformity and coordinated aesthetics on all applications in the
Microsoft and Apple way while a window manager manages windows.

Look at fvwm-crystal.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [likely out of luck]

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/17/2018 10:13 AM, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

Richard Owlet wrote:

Is there a recommended site that gives
a good description of why and how one would use [FVWM] {similar to what

does for KDE}?


John Hasler wrote:

 is what there is.



That page prompted the question ;<


Google for "fvwm2rc". It is rewarding to add the word "examples".


My experience with installing Debian package fvwm2 two years ago would
have been much worse if i did not have the file ~/.fvwm2rc from my eight
year older workstation. Actually i carry it from system to system since
a SuSE installation in year 2000.

Fvwm is not a desktop like KDE or Gnome but rather a window manager,
which nowadays is only a smaller part of the desktop goals.
It offers no GUI library and thus has no fat applications depending on it.
If you use KDE or Gnome applications then you pull in half of their very
many libraries.

Fvwm is software for people who don't want look-and-feel to change for
the mere reason that another decade went by.
One has to customize it by editing the configuration file, not by
drag-and-drop. It is best used with a zillion xterm windows and a few
inavoidable GUI programs like web browser or PDF reader.

I simply love it.



This is a general question about the relationship of "window managers" 
and "desktop environments".


I'm getting the impression that:
  1. a window manager can manage several desktops.
  2. each desktop may or may not have an associated desktop environment.

If a window manager launches 3 desktops:
  1. there need not be any relationship between the 3 desktop
 environments.
  2. all could be different configurations of MATE such that
 a. one desktop would only have program icons for creating
documents.
 b. one would only have program icons for doing matrix algebra.
 c. one would only have program icons for web browsing and email.

How many fallacies or misunderstanding above?
TIA

Re: [likely out of luck]

[John Hasler]

Thomas Schmitt writes:
> Fvwm is software for people who don't want look-and-feel to change for
> the mere reason that another decade went by.  One has to customize it
> by editing the configuration file, not by drag-and-drop. It is best
> used with a zillion xterm windows and a few inavoidable GUI programs
> like web browser or PDF reader.

FVWM is sufficiently flexible to work quite well with GUI applications.
Look at it as kit with which you can build your own desktop environment.
I started using in in the previous century.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

fvwm resources, was Re: [likely out of luck] was -- Re: Using MATE's workspaces effectively

[David Wright]

On Sat 17 Feb 2018 at 09:01:07 (-0600), John Hasler wrote:
> Richard Owlett writes:
> > A sketchy preliminary web search doses not look promising.  I'll
> > initially experiment with KDE.  Is there a recommended site that gives
> > a good description of why and how one would use [FVWM] {similar to what
> > 
> > does for KDE}?
> 
>  is what there is.
> 
> There is a plethora of man pages, of course.

If you like configuring by example, then reading through
/usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config while running fvwm
is invaluable.

These older links might be helpful:

https://docstore.mik.ua/orelly/linux/run/ch11_02.htm
https://docstore.mik.ua/orelly/linux/lnut/ch17_01.htm

The latter includes:

17.11. Starting Windows on Different Desktops and Pages
https://docstore.mik.ua/orelly/linux/lnut/ch17_11.htm

but beware of cutting and pasting directly from texts
like these in case they're from a previous version
(though fvwm moves pretty slowly). In particular, just
check they're not from fvwm1 which, remarkably, is
still packaged in stretch.

People used to post their fvwmrc/fvwm2rc files in days
of yore; googleable, good for new ideas.

Cheers,
David.

Re: [likely out of luck]

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Richard Owlet wrote:
>>> Is there a recommended site that gives
>>> a good description of why and how one would use [FVWM] {similar to what
>>> 
>>> does for KDE}?

John Hasler wrote:
>>  is what there is.

> That page prompted the question ;<

Google for "fvwm2rc". It is rewarding to add the word "examples".


My experience with installing Debian package fvwm2 two years ago would
have been much worse if i did not have the file ~/.fvwm2rc from my eight
year older workstation. Actually i carry it from system to system since
a SuSE installation in year 2000.

Fvwm is not a desktop like KDE or Gnome but rather a window manager,
which nowadays is only a smaller part of the desktop goals.
It offers no GUI library and thus has no fat applications depending on it.
If you use KDE or Gnome applications then you pull in half of their very
many libraries.

Fvwm is software for people who don't want look-and-feel to change for
the mere reason that another decade went by.
One has to customize it by editing the configuration file, not by
drag-and-drop. It is best used with a zillion xterm windows and a few
inavoidable GUI programs like web browser or PDF reader.

I simply love it.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [likely out of luck] was -- Re: Using MATE's workspaces effectively

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/17/2018 09:01 AM, John Hasler wrote:

Richard Owlett writes:

A sketchy preliminary web search doses not look promising.  I'll
initially experiment with KDE.  Is there a recommended site that gives
a good description of why and how one would use [FVWM] {similar to what

does for KDE}?


 is what there is.


That page prompted the question ;<



There is a plethora of man pages, of course.

Re: [likely out of luck] was -- Re: Using MATE's workspaces effectively

[John Hasler]

Richard Owlett writes:
> A sketchy preliminary web search doses not look promising.  I'll
> initially experiment with KDE.  Is there a recommended site that gives
> a good description of why and how one would use [FVWM] {similar to what
> 
> does for KDE}?

 is what there is.

There is a plethora of man pages, of course.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [likely out of luck] was -- Re: Using MATE's workspaces effectively

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/17/2018 07:42 AM, John Hasler wrote:

Richard Owlett wrote:

I have no problem with different applications being open in each workspace.

What I would like would be to be able to do is have differing sets of
applications available in each workspace.


This can be done with FVWM. 


A sketchy preliminary web search doses not look promising.
I'll initially experiment with KDE.
Is there a recommended site that gives a good description of why and how 
one would use it {similar to what 
 
does for KDE}?





I start it up four desks (similar, I think,
to MATE's workspaces) each with 16 panes (you can have as many or as few
as you want on each desktop).  Each desk can start a different set of
applications.  I don't use it the way you want to (for one thing I
despise icons) but there is no reason it could not do exactly what you
want.  Windows can be made "sticky" so that they "stick to the glass"
and follow you around.  Thus you could have a set of icons that are
always visible and other sets that only show up on one desktop.

Of course, this does mean you have to learn to configure FVWM.

Re: [likely out of luck] was -- Re: Using MATE's workspaces effectively

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/17/2018 07:17 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, February 16, 2018 10:33:01 PM Richard Owlett wrote:

Both are good descriptions of what I want.
If it cannot be done in MATE, is there another desktop or approach that
will accomplish my goal?
TIA


As long as we are talking about icons on the desktop (instead of, for example,
menu items on the toolbar) I believe you can do it in kde (as in kde4 on
Wheezy).  I don't do it, but I just did a quick experiment--I put an icon on
one desktop, I might have selected some sort of option (what can I say, I'm
getting old and I have a headache--my short term memory is sometimes very bad)
and it now appears on only one of my 8 desktops.

If you are seriously interested in trying kde, let me know, and I'll
experiment a little more and give you more detailed instructions.




Curt referred me to 
 
which, in combination with linked pages, gives a good description of 
what I want.


I have a spare machine and and a complete set of Debian 9 DVD's for a 
test install. It's supposed to be cold and/or wet for next week. I'll 
have time.

Re: [likely out of luck] was -- Re: Using MATE's workspaces effectively

[John Hasler]

Richard Owlett wrote:
> I have no problem with different applications being open in each workspace.
>
> What I would like would be to be able to do is have differing sets of
> applications available in each workspace.

This can be done with FVWM.  I start it up four desks (similar, I think,
to MATE's workspaces) each with 16 panes (you can have as many or as few
as you want on each desktop).  Each desk can start a different set of
applications.  I don't use it the way you want to (for one thing I
despise icons) but there is no reason it could not do exactly what you
want.  Windows can be made "sticky" so that they "stick to the glass"
and follow you around.  Thus you could have a set of icons that are
always visible and other sets that only show up on one desktop.

Of course, this does mean you have to learn to configure FVWM.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [likely out of luck] was -- Re: Using MATE's workspaces effectively

[rhkramer]

On Friday, February 16, 2018 10:33:01 PM Richard Owlett wrote:
> Both are good descriptions of what I want.
> If it cannot be done in MATE, is there another desktop or approach that
> will accomplish my goal?
> TIA

As long as we are talking about icons on the desktop (instead of, for example, 
menu items on the toolbar) I believe you can do it in kde (as in kde4 on 
Wheezy).  I don't do it, but I just did a quick experiment--I put an icon on 
one desktop, I might have selected some sort of option (what can I say, I'm 
getting old and I have a headache--my short term memory is sometimes very bad) 
and it now appears on only one of my 8 desktops.

If you are seriously interested in trying kde, let me know, and I'll 
experiment a little more and give you more detailed instructions.

Re: [likely out of luck] was -- Re: Using MATE's workspaces effectively

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/17/2018 05:11 AM, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:

On 2/17/18, Curt  wrote:

On 2018-02-17, Richard Owlett  wrote:


Both are good descriptions of what I want.
If it cannot be done in MATE, is there another desktop or approach that
will accomplish my goal?
TIA



Maybe KDE "activities" matches your desires:
[snip
https://www.datamation.com/open-source/how-to-setup-kde-activities.html


That describes a solution.
See my reply to Curt for more details.




After I mentioned panel last night, I realized that all that would do
is... carry over the same between workspaces, too. Just popping in now
to wonder out loud if maybe it might someday be possible to script
something that is triggered by an active Workspace 1, Workspace 2,
etc.

As I proofread that tiny little bit, it further occurs to me that
there surely must be some way to do that. The packages that we scooch
around between workspaces have to be cluing in on something to know
that they are to stay put over there instead of right here in front of
us... unless their workspace is the one currently being viewed...
right here in front of us.

Cindy :)

Re: [likely out of luck] was -- Re: Using MATE's workspaces effectively

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/17/2018 04:25 AM, Curt wrote:

On 2018-02-17, Richard Owlett  wrote:


Both are good descriptions of what I want.
If it cannot be done in MATE, is there another desktop or approach that
will accomplish my goal?
TIA



Maybe KDE "activities" matches your desires:
[snip summary of]
https://www.datamation.com/open-source/how-to-setup-kde-activities.html


Yes, very closely. Its  links to

,

, 
and

  
are also valuable.

Asking on a local users group led to
  
and 
which outlines what has to happen behind the scenes to have the
user experience I want.

There is reading/re-reading in my future.
Thank you.

Re: [likely out of luck] was -- Re: Using MATE's workspaces effectively

[Cindy-Sue Causey]

On 2/17/18, Curt  wrote:
> On 2018-02-17, Richard Owlett  wrote:
>>
>> Both are good descriptions of what I want.
>> If it cannot be done in MATE, is there another desktop or approach that
>> will accomplish my goal?
>> TIA
>>
>
> Maybe KDE "activities" matches your desires:
>
>  The classic Linux desktop -- a workspace, a panel, and a menu --
>  remains the most popular design for a graphical interface.
>  Unfortunately, however, modern computers include too many applications
>  to fit on a single desktop. Many users respond by launching
>  applications from the menu, often drilling down several levels and
>  sometimes even relying on incomplete menus to reduce clutter. However,
>  KDE offers a more elegant solution in Activities, or multiple desktops,
>  each with its own set of icons.
>
>  ...
>
>  Usually, however virtual workspaces are sub-divisions of a desktop,
>  extending workspace without the trouble of setting up multiple
>  monitors. Using virtual desktops, for example, you can keep your
>  browser or email reader open full-screen all the time.
>
>  By contrast, Activities are usually organized by tasks or project. By
>  setting up different Activities, you can place all the necessary
>  resources for a task or project in the workspace, a single click away.
>  In effect, they make the classic desktop practical again.
>
> https://www.datamation.com/open-source/how-to-setup-kde-activities.html


After I mentioned panel last night, I realized that all that would do
is... carry over the same between workspaces, too. Just popping in now
to wonder out loud if maybe it might someday be possible to script
something that is triggered by an active Workspace 1, Workspace 2,
etc.

As I proofread that tiny little bit, it further occurs to me that
there surely must be some way to do that. The packages that we scooch
around between workspaces have to be cluing in on something to know
that they are to stay put over there instead of right here in front of
us... unless their workspace is the one currently being viewed...
right here in front of us.

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with duct tape *

Re: [likely out of luck] was -- Re: Using MATE's workspaces effectively

[Curt]

On 2018-02-17, Richard Owlett  wrote:
>
> Both are good descriptions of what I want.
> If it cannot be done in MATE, is there another desktop or approach that 
> will accomplish my goal?
> TIA
>

Maybe KDE "activities" matches your desires:

 The classic Linux desktop -- a workspace, a panel, and a menu --
 remains the most popular design for a graphical interface.
 Unfortunately, however, modern computers include too many applications
 to fit on a single desktop. Many users respond by launching
 applications from the menu, often drilling down several levels and
 sometimes even relying on incomplete menus to reduce clutter. However,
 KDE offers a more elegant solution in Activities, or multiple desktops,
 each with its own set of icons.

 ...

 Usually, however virtual workspaces are sub-divisions of a desktop,
 extending workspace without the trouble of setting up multiple
 monitors. Using virtual desktops, for example, you can keep your
 browser or email reader open full-screen all the time.

 By contrast, Activities are usually organized by tasks or project. By
 setting up different Activities, you can place all the necessary
 resources for a task or project in the workspace, a single click away.
 In effect, they make the classic desktop practical again.

https://www.datamation.com/open-source/how-to-setup-kde-activities.html

-- 
When its 100 degrees in New York, its 78 in Los Angeles. When its 10
degrees in New York, its 78 in Los Angeles. There are two million
interesting people in New York. There are 78 in Los Angeles. --Neil Simon