subject:"is it possible to install a desktop\-manager without python and perl\?"

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:25 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:22:38 +0800
明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:

2009/6/22 Peter Crawford creature...@hotmail.com:

Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
reach it?

Eventually you might find DirectFB acceptable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectFB

Lack of XDirectFB in Debian is a limitation for now.
thank you, I think DirectFB is the right direction, while X window is
a strange way for graphic system. I hope I can find a DirectFB
implementation of window system to replace gnome.

I'm afraid that you are out of lucks as DirectFB won't help your cause either
as there are VERY few programs that support it. I think that there is a media
player, image viewer and possibly a pdf viewer, but not much more. You won't
find anything similar to gnome unless you start writing it. Most gui programs
depend explicitly on xorg calls so won't run without x windows.

You are mostly limited to the console with tcsh and try to ignore the face
that
your whole startup and parts of your project management depend on sh, possibly
also perl. Some of the build procedures for you faivorite programs also
probably depend on some scripting language or other. I'm not aware of any pure
c building environment.
it doesn't matter, I have prepared to build my system from BIOS. or
even build a computer first.

regards, p. crawford

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 01:43:35PM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 
  What about XML, YAML, HTML, javascript, and such? No more browser? No
  more internet? :-)
 Of course I will use all of them, I even use windows vista everyday
 for playing games, that's my user role; for my programmer role, I will
 use Xml and html, for they are data files, not programming languages,
 I will try to write my own brower in C++, and use a subset of C++ to
 be the dhtml programming language instead of javascript.
 

OK. I'll bite :) 15 years ago, I studied a couple of terms of evening 
classes in programming in C.

One of the exercises thrown at us was: Build a reservation system for a 
10 seat commuter aeroplane.

Small, simple, defined - but harder than it looks on paper. Go for it: 
from your posts, you have the programming credentials.
Try the following exercise:

Build one in PHP / webforms (or Javascript) - web languages, anyway.

Build one in pure Perl. 

Build one in C or C++ writing to a MySQL/Postgres database.

Build one in C / C++ alone.

Build one in assembler.

Shouldn't take you long. That'll give you a much better feel for how/why 
different approaches have their strengths and weaknesses. It will mean 
you're porting code that should be familiar and that you can read and 
understand because you wrote it. Its a limited problem: the real world 
is harder. 

For extra credit, put it up on a website somewhere and submit the URL 
back here for the code to be analysed by others here.

Come back when you're done. Then decide whether your ideas are feasible.

AndyC


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:39:53 +0800
明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:

2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:

On Jun 22, 2009, at 9:18 PM, 明覺 wrote:

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote:

明覺 writes:

yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full
control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to
maintain for me.

If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you
you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
language.

Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.

Boy, I didn't realize that by junior programmer you meant you were that
inexperienced in the field. I don't know if you realize that you've just
basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the
different reasons for different languages.

EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT
purpose.
I will give an example to deny your opinion - a DIFFERENT tool with a
DIFFERENT purpose
Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is
to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like
the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will
be C#, I guess.

The only one language for microsoft is c#, oh wait, its visual basic, sorry
wait a minute it's forms for the gui, assembly in the drivers in if you start
digging you will find that half the system management is using scripts and
batch scripts of one sort or another.
I mean .net framework, I don't know they use scripts so heavily, but I
think they are reducing the use of scripts, you even cannot find a
command line console in vista.

Then what's the only one language for linux? I think
it's C/C++.

I'm afraid you are out of luck. All the init scripts are as the name sugests,
scripts (you may get away without bash but you won't get away without sh which
is basically simple bash). You probably should compile the kernel as
compilation includes scripts (assuming you don't have problems with make
files), emacs is out of the question as half of it is writen in elisp (variant
of list). Vim may be ok, don't know.

You can try dos, but the startup agian depends on batch scripts.

OSx likes objectiveC more than c++, but there is also quite a bit of apple
script and it's unix behind the scene which means perl, bash, python, etc.

It is rarely a whim why a programmer picks one language over another.
There

I found that it's usually due to a whim and a bunch of buzz words. Usually
it's
the program you know, but quite often this is due to you picking your initial
language to match the programming you like. I also do find that a lot of
people, esspecially windows people BTW, tend to be narrow minded and lock into
one programming language, usually it's c++ or c#. A lot of times its' the
managers who don't know anything about programing that choose the language.
I feel very strange that you have learnt so many languages but you do
not feel bored with them. I have no words to say, maybe we are 2
different people.

are often several, if not many reasons why one language is more appropriate
and better for a job than another is.

But there's no point in continuing any discussion. You've made it quite
clear you're too busy being right to care what anyone more experienced has
to say -- unless it's what you want to hear.

Hal

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote:
 On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:18:16 +0800
 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote:
  明覺 writes:
  yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full
  control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
  language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to
  maintain for me.
 
  If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you
  you aren't much of a programmer.  Programming is not about knowing a
  language.
 Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
 powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.

 What you are saying is that you just don't want tools around.

 First of all they don't have the same function (and if you'd use them you'd
 know). And if you knew something you would know that c may be powerful but it
 is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one line that you
 would need 100s of lines of code with c.
100s of lines of C code? how about drop the 100 lines into a function?

 Don't try to kill a fly with a cannon, or to quote I don't remember who:
 c is a language that has the power of assembly and the ease of use of 
 assembly ...


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Cowley Harriswarewo...@gmail.com wrote:
This guy asked a relatively simple question which I'm paraphrasing
here as can you run Debian without perl or python, the answer is
pretty much no.
He gave his reasons for the question and his opinion on the answers he
was given. He's also started probably the most interesting thread on
this list for a while.

As I've read it, he's not attacked anyone personally even when
disagreeing with people and yet he is being personally attacked for
his opinions.

Well, here is my opinion, if you feel threatened enough by someone who
disagrees with you, that you must insult them, it's a sign of a weak
logic or a weak mind. It's the reaction typical of a zealot, fool or
troll and not the response of someone with some useful knowledge to
share.

I don't agree with him that a one programming language system
would be the right way to do things or that it would lead to a
bright future of our free software world. but I'm not going to insult
him for his belief. In fact it might be a good thing that he tries
this endeavor.

Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people
attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore,
depends on unreasonable people. GB Shaw.

The benefits of multiple languages over a 1 language system (1LS) is
that it gives you the ability to program at the appropriate level of
the problem space. The studies show that the higher level you program
the more instructions you have per line, and yet the bugs per line
stay about the same.
The studies also show that the amount of LOC produced by programmers
of the same skill level is about the same, whether they use assembly,
c or java, and yet the amount of instructions per LOC increase with
level of the language. More productivity in the same time span is a
major advantage.

On a personal note, I think that programmers that use different
languages can communicate in meta-programming terms, a hash-table is
a hash-table whether you call it a hash or a dictionary. The benefits
of a 1LS would be small in comparison to the benefits of plural
system.
thank you! I thought they are kind to give me advice, but I'm wrong,
they just want to laught at me, it doesn't matter, I finally know it,
and maybe next time I will discover it earlier.
I still insist my ideal: one language for computer programming!

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009/6/24 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:

On Jun 23, 2009, at 10:02 PM, 明覺 wrote:

2009/6/23 Jeff Soules sou...@gmail.com:

I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
debian user.

yes i'm asking for advice, and I'm very happy to get so many good
advices, and I'm trying to form a solution to include all the good
advices, I'm not wasting other's time, we are just discussing and
trying to figure out the best way.

No, we're not figuring out the best way. All of US are telling you that
you're off your rocker and on a fool's quest. You're saying, But you're
wrong and I'm right.
I give you much respect, but you give me laughing, I will not respect
you anymore, no thanks, good bye!

A very good comparison -- human languages and programming languages.
Then why we must have an official world language - English? What's the
official language in the programming world? If you say you do not need
an official programming language, then you are saying we do not need
English to be the world official language, I believe no one will
agree with you; if you say every programmer should learn many
languages, then you are saying everyone should learn English,
Chinese, French, oh, I believe everyone will hate you so much, I
guess you are also a chinese, you should know how suffering we chinese
have to learn English.

Comparisons hold true on some levels, but few hold true on every level. In
this case, you're taking one argument and stretching it beyond any boundary
of logic or common sense. Yeah, I could go into it more, but why? You'll
just say, But I'm right and you're not.

I value every good concept in every language,

No you don't. If you did, you'd understand the main message you've been
told dozens of times.

but please add that good
concept to my familiar language, not force me to learn a new one;

Nobody's forcing you to learn a darn thing. You don't have to do nothing --
except pay taxes and die (and I honestly don't know how taxes work in your
country). You make it sound like a chore to learn a new language. For a
true programmer it isn't. Learning a new language, for a real and true
programmer, is and adventure. It's a chance to approach all problems from
yet another perspective. I learned most languages in a few hours or days.
When I first started looking at OOP, it took me a while, but once I got it,
working with other OOP based languages was a snap. If you feel like you're
being forced to learn languages, then you're in the wrong field.

But after reading that line, I wonder

Is all this because you have trouble with some languages -- it looks like
you're essentially trying to go through all this so you don't have to learn
languages you don't want to learn.

I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth.

or,
I can reference another language so that I can improve my language,
but please do not force me to use a new one.

Nobody is forcing you to learn anything. You don't want to learn one, don't
learn it. Quit the job -- but then when you want a new job, don't be
surprised if they ask you why you quit that last one! Honestly, that you
can even talk about being forced to learn a language, that you even have
that as a concept in your brain, says even more about you. It tells us you
don't want to learn something new. It tells us you don't want to explore.
It tells us you see programming more as a chore than an art or challenge.
It also says that we should have sympathy for whoever hires you as a
programmer.

The way computers working
is simple, so there isn't any difficulties to implement

is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009/6/24 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:

 On Jun 23, 2009, at 10:57 AM, 明覺 wrote:

 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:

 On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:10 PM, 明覺 wrote:

 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:

 On Jun 22, 2009, at 8:00 AM, 明覺 wrote:
 ...

 Looks like a strange idea to me to run a one programming language
 only
 system, it would hint that there's a one fits all language and
 other
 are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess
 ;-)
 )

 yes, currently, I'm almost a one programming language only people,
 I
 can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should
 be optional, not necessory!

 Necessary for what?! For you to use a computer? It seems as though
 you're being unreasonable (on many fronts), but if you are not fan of
 certain software, then don't use it. Don't bitch about how it was
 developed. Those folks (eg., gnome, X.org, etc.) produced a product
 the way that they did and then offered it to the masses for free.

 cliche
 Beggers can't be choosers.
 /cliche

 you treat yourself a begger, I'm not, I'm a chooser. Happy begging to
 you!

 A rose by any other name is still a rose.  You can call yourself a
 chooser,
 but your actions show you to be a begger.

 Thanks for the long reply!
 I still do not think I'm a begger, as I have decided to work on the
 MikeOS, which is a assembly language programmed free OS. Of cause,
 currently I need to use Vista or Debian for everyday life, but my
 heart is on my own programmed OS, and I hope I will switch to my own
 OS after some years.

 You're a beggar.  You want what you want from other people in an easy
 format
 so they've packaged it for you.  When you're asking others for something,
 you're the beggar.  You can TRY to also be the chooser, but if that were
 the
 case, and you were a chooser, then you'd be selecting from several
 available
 choices.

 I don't agree with you, I'm just looking for some people who have the
 same thinking with me, I'm not begging from them, for they also need
 my paticipation very much.

 1) You're being literal and focusing on exact meanings, instead of
 interpreting the entire idiom.
 2) We all look at our situation and interpret it with us having the highest
 and best goals.  None of us look at ourselves as clearly as those who look
 from a distance.
I sure know my ideal is far from the reality, but I think the meaning
of life is to spend some time in realizing my ideal.



 First, when you look at what's in even just a minimal Linux install,
 there
 is no way you're ever going to get through working on more than a few
 programs in the next few years.  Second, when a programmer writes a
 program,
 if he has any wisdom (which is knowledge gained through experience,
 hence
 the more years, the more experience and the more wisdom), he will use
 the
 right tool for the right job.  For instance, I need to use mainly Perl
 and
 Java, but have used many other languages.  I find I can code 5x faster
 in
 Perl than Java and about the same, maybe better if I use Perl instead
 of
 C++.  Hardly any of my Perl code is done as a wrapper for a C or C++
 program.  It is valid code that does a LOT of work and does it well.
 Since
 it's text processing, to do the same work in C or C++ would be a
 nightmare.

 If we setup proper C/C++ library for text processing, we can reach the
 same effect as Perl, why cannot? for any piece of perl code, I believe
 I'm able to write a piece of C++ code as simple to replace it, on top
 of a proper library. It's the same for python, java and other
 languages. I worked on C# for 4 years, it's also a very efficient
 language, but I can drop it, for I know, C# is just C++ with a good
 library, the .net framework, but its cost is an additional layer, the
 .net runtime and its intermedia language.

 There are C and C++ text processing libraries.  They don't have the power
 of
 Perl or Python or other languages.  C has been around for decades and
 contributed to and worked on and used by many, MANY programmers.  These
 people have more experience than you or I and their combined experience
 is
 enormous.  If C was such a great language for doing every thing out
 there,
 and we'll use text processing as an example, why haven't these people
 released libraries that do all that Perl does already?  One answer is
 that

 good question, why haven't released those C libraries? I will release
 one in the future, I'm sure I'm able to replace perl by C, including
 change C a little, but changing C a little is much better than
 creating a new language like perl.

 When you get into writing them, I think you'll see.  Actually, it's kind of
 funny to look at this and see a young and inexperienced programmer thinking
 he's going to be able to do what many, many master programmers have never
 felt appropriate or reasonably possible.  This is one statement, of a number
 that you've made, both to me and on the Debian list, that show you really do
 not understand a number of

Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Sjoerd Hardeman


明覺 wrote:

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:39:53 +0800
明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:


2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:

On Jun 22, 2009, at 9:18 PM, 明覺 wrote:


On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote:

明覺 writes:

yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full
control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to
maintain for me.

If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you
you aren't much of a programmer.  Programming is not about knowing a
language.

Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.

Boy, I didn't realize that by junior programmer you meant you were that
inexperienced in the field.  I don't know if you realize that you've just
basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the
different reasons for different languages.

EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT
purpose.

I will give an example to deny your opinion - a DIFFERENT tool with a
DIFFERENT purpose
Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is
to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like
the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will
be C#, I guess.

The only one language for microsoft is c#, oh wait, its visual basic, sorry
wait a minute it's forms for the gui, assembly in the drivers in if you start
digging you will find that half the system management is using scripts and
batch scripts of one sort or another.

I mean .net framework, I don't know they use scripts so heavily, but I
think they are reducing the use of scripts, you even cannot find a
command line console in vista.
Try windows key+R (Run) and run 'cmd'. Voilà, there's your command line. 
Now let me continue to avoid this hilarious discussion.


Sjoerd



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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Wednesday 24 June 2009 03:02:15 明覺 wrote:
 we must have an official language

There speaks a well indoctrinated totalitarian!

Lisi


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread AG


明覺 wrote:

I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
thanks


  
I am by no means a programmer - junior or otherwise - although have 
dabbled with C, C++, Lisp, Scheme, and Python, and have been successful 
in getting a few simplistic bash scripts to work as predicted.   I say 
all of this just to acknowledge that my ignorance about programming is 
profound.  What microscopic information I can lay claim to is actually 
in agreement with what you have already stated in one of your replies to 
the numerous posts in response to your topic.  I also admire that you 
stick so steadfastly to your guns in the face of so much opprobrium.  
That takes a certain level of courage of your convictions, and that is a 
trait I respect.  There is a counterpoint (corollary) to that, of 
course, and that is that painting oneself into a corner is not a wise 
way to proceed. 

I cannot profess to understand your rationale for eschewing all that is 
not C/ C# based.  But, there are many things I cannot claim to 
understand.  Your reasons are your own.  It does lead to some 
interesting choices though:


(1) to what extent does your choice restrict either/ both the 
opportunities available to you and the quality of experience with 
respect to computing?  Some of those links from MikeOS actually look 
quite interesting, but for me only as a hobby.  For serious research 
work, report development, data analysis, and so on, I myself am 
completely dependent on higher level programmes that are built upon 
lower level routines.  I suppose in the spirit of OOP, I don't need to 
know how it does that (information hiding) - I just want to know that it 
will do what it says on the tin whenever I call upon it to work.  This 
is just another way of saying that going the purist approach is likely 
to severely limit your overall capability to do work.  As others have 
suggested - unless you are going to recode all the apps you feel that 
your digital experience will benefit from including into C, etc., you 
are likely to be experiencing a lot of barriers when pursuing a 
mono-language approach and in trying to get a workable system.


(2) if your intent is to try to code an entire OS from C, et al., it is 
likely to be quite fast but will require an untold number of programming 
hours to develop.  Perhaps if you searched out C programmers with a 
proposal, you could use a basic UNIX (FreeBSD?) system and code together 
an OS in C and C only.  As others have already noted here, it will take 
many programming hours I'd imagine and really - what will be the point, 
besides a proof of concept?  This is not a bad thing.  The point of 
wisdom however might be, to paraphrase a GNU/Linux celebrity, to allow 
lower level programmes to develop higher level functions.  C is a lower 
level programming language when compared to, say python or perl (which I 
know nothing about, I hasten to add).  But C serves a function in a 
hierarchy of programming languages that together converge into an 
operating environment.  The question is are you after a system that only 
runs using C programmes or are you after an operational system?  If the 
former, then there is a lot of work to be done.  If the latter, then 
there are a number of alternatives available, one of which is GNU/Linux, 
or perhaps a *BSD, as already has been mentioned.


I have to take my hat off to you - I wouldn't even know where or how to 
begin to follow such a purist path, and I hope that you start a blog 
charting progress.  This is exactly what FOSS is all about, surely ... 
being able to change existing programmes and challenging established 
algorithms.  As a dedicated FOSS user and voluntary advocate I ask that 
you be sure to respect existing GPLs as appropriate, please.  Those 
standards have preserved human intellectual development as property of 
the commons, and this needs to be preserved.  If you have something to 
add, please ensure that it is owned by the majority of humanity and not 
locked under some proprietary licensing agreement. 


Godspeed in your mission.

Best

AG


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Nate Bargmann

* 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com [2009 Jun 24 00:45 -0500]:
 On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Hilco
 Wijbengahilco.wijbe...@gmail.com wrote:

  And have you thought about make, m4, gcc, autotools? They all have/are
  their own language that you need to learn. gcc uses Lisp (or
  something like it) internally, are you now no longer going to use a
  compiler? No more make because it requires you to learn its language?
  How are you going to build your code?
 I don't know gcc uses Lisp, I thought gcc is prgrammed in C, maybe I
 can use only the C programmed part of Gcc, or I can develop my own
 compiler by asm if I do not like gcc.

Then get cracking.  Had you spent half as much time doing some research
(the source is there, Luke) as you have done carrying on with these
silly assertions and non sequiturs you might accurately understand the
scope of your foolishness.

In case I'm wrong, get back to work, Linus!

- Nate 

-- 

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Nate Bargmannn...@n0nb.us wrote:
* 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com [2009 Jun 24 00:45 -0500]:
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Hilco
Wijbengahilco.wijbe...@gmail.com wrote:

And have you thought about make, m4, gcc, autotools? They all have/are
their own language that you need to learn. gcc uses Lisp (or
something like it) internally, are you now no longer going to use a
compiler? No more make because it requires you to learn its language?
How are you going to build your code?
I don't know gcc uses Lisp, I thought gcc is prgrammed in C, maybe I
can use only the C programmed part of Gcc, or I can develop my own
compiler by asm if I do not like gcc.

Then get cracking. Had you spent half as much time doing some research
(the source is there, Luke) as you have done carrying on with these
silly assertions and non sequiturs you might accurately understand the
scope of your foolishness.
I can tell you now, I really do not like gcc, for it supports so many
useless languages, I surely will write my own compiler. What a pity
you are!

In case I'm wrong, get back to work, Linus!

- Nate

The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true.

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://n0nb.us/index.html

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Dale Harris

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 02:45:45PM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 thank you! I thought they are kind to give me advice, but I'm wrong,
 they just want to laught at me, it doesn't matter, I finally know it,
 and maybe next time I will discover it earlier.
 I still insist my ideal: one language for computer programming!

There is one language for all computer programming, it's the machine language. 
Everything reduces to that.  It's all a bunch of ones and zeros.

But then are you running on an Intel based platform, MIPS, ARM?  Oh darn,
different assembly languages. 

Face it, now speaking in metaphor, trying to insist on a hammer when you
need a screwdriver will just make your life a living hell.  You must be
adaptable.  

-- 
Dale Harris   
rod...@maybe.org
rod...@gmail.com
/.-)


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Dale Harrisrod...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 02:45:45PM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 thank you! I thought they are kind to give me advice, but I'm wrong,
 they just want to laught at me, it doesn't matter, I finally know it,
 and maybe next time I will discover it earlier.
 I still insist my ideal: one language for computer programming!

 There is one language for all computer programming, it's the machine language.
 Everything reduces to that.  It's all a bunch of ones and zeros.

 But then are you running on an Intel based platform, MIPS, ARM?  Oh darn,
 different assembly languages.

 Face it, now speaking in metaphor, trying to insist on a hammer when you
 need a screwdriver will just make your life a living hell.  You must be
 adaptable.
you do not understand me, and I've been tired to explain my thoughts. thanks.

 --
 Dale Harris
 rod...@maybe.org
 rod...@gmail.com
 /.-)


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-- 
Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks)
Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl
初禪言語寂滅，二禪覺觀寂滅，三禪喜心寂滅，四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫，是為無上禪。


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Tom Furie

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 02:11:31PM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote:

  is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one line that 
  you
  would need 100s of lines of code with c.
 100s of lines of C code? how about drop the 100 lines into a function?

You still need to put those 100s of lines of code in somewhere.

cheers,
Tom

-- 
If a man has talent and cannot use it, he has failed.
-- Thomas Wolfe


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Eduardo M KALINOWSKI


On Dom, 21 Jun 2009, ?? wrote:

Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks)
Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl


While your first message did not have this signature, subsequent ones  
had. I don't know for sure exactly what that means, but I suppose it's  
software you use/like/support or something like that.


I don't know all of them, but I can make some comments about some of them:


Mozilla


Parts of it are written in XUL/JavaScript (or something like that).


Gmail


Relies heavily on JavaScript on the client side. As for the server  
side, while I don't know in which language it is written, I doubt it's  
C or C++.



Flashplayer


Has it's own language for defining the flash programs.


--
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edua...@kalinowski.com.br


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Wednesday 24 June 2009 12:37:25 明覺 wrote:
 What a pity
 you are!

What does that mean??


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Eduardo M KALINOWSKI


On Qua, 24 Jun 2009, 明覺 wrote:

I can tell you now, I really do not like gcc, for it supports so many
useless languages,


gcc is a C compiler, supporting only that.
g++ is a C++ compiler.
gfortran is a fortran compiler.
... and so on.

Maybe you are confusing gcc (the C compiler) with the GNU Compiler  
Suite, which is a set of compilers for several languages.



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edua...@kalinowski.com.br


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Johannes Wiedersich

Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
 otoh, I also dislike the need for many scripting languages. Perl, python,
 tcl, lua, ruby, lisp, scheme... 
 I'd be also glad if packages like openssl-blacklist didn't require python...

I think it's a great service to the users that a program like
openssl-blacklist was available in a timely manner. Security scenarios
like the one you mention highlight the importance that programmers
should primarily use the language they know best for the task, instead
of being 'forced' to use a certain language that might be less familiar
or less suited for the purpose.

Feel free to write a better version of openssl-blacklist in a language
you think more apropriate.

Feel free to write a better version of any software in the language of
you choice.

Or stick with whatever is given to you for free.

No one ever forced you to use their free software.

Cheers,
Johannes


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Jeff Soules

2009/6/23 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com:
 2009/6/23 Jeff Soules sou...@gmail.com:
 A very good comparison -- human languages and programming languages.
 Then why we must have an official world language - English? What's the
 official language in the programming world? If you say you do not need
 an official programming language, then you are saying we do not need
 English to be the world official language, I believe no one will
 agree with you; if you say every programmer should learn many
 languages, then you are saying everyone should learn English,
 Chinese, French, oh, I believe everyone will hate you so much, I
 guess you are also a chinese, you should know how suffering we chinese
 have to learn English.

Each (natural) language does things differently.  Something very
important would be lost if we did away with the differences.
It's the same with programming languages--different languages exist
for a reason, and while it's theoretically possible to do anything in
any language, some languages are better than others for some tasks.
Haiku in English usually sound silly; an install script in Assembly
would be silly too.  You really can't write a play in heroic
alexandrine couplets in Chinese; just the same, there are probably
better language choices than tcl to write real-time financial data
analysis software.

I do not think we need an official world language.  I think that if
you want to access Du Fu, Li Bai, Zhuangzi, you will need to learn
Chinese; if you want to read Milton, Shakespeare, the Constitution,
you'll need to learn English; if you want Apollinaire, Hugo, Rostand,
you'll need to learn French.  But not everybody needs access to all
those things; and there are compatibility layers (in the form of
translations) available for people who don't need direct access.
People need to learn the languages that let them easily do the things
they want to do, whether that's parse a text file or read Homer.

What makes a natural language valuable is not just the sounds and the
grammar, but the entire body of work that exists in the language.
Consider Perl vs. C.  Perl doesn't really add new concepts to C --
they're both procedural, you can achieve the same goals in each.  Part
of what makes Perl valuable is CPAN -- an enormous body of Perl code
that exists to solve thousands of problems that other people have
already had, and for which Perl users have written reusable solutions.
 It's not complete, and there are times when it's worthwhile to
re-invent the wheel; but incorporating Perl syntax into C would not
give you access to the best part of Perl.  For that, you'd have to
port all of CPAN.  To incorporate the best part of Chinese into
English, you need more than pinyin and tone markings; you would need
to translate Confucius, Mencius, Laozi, Han Fei, Shijing, Daozang,
Shiji..  which has been done, but people who really want to
understand still have to learn Chinese!

 I value every good concept in every language, but please add that good
 concept to my familiar language, not force me to learn a new one; or,
 I can reference another language so that I can improve my language,
 but please do not force me to use a new one.

What would it mean?  A big part of the advantage of Perl, like I said,
isn't new ideas or concepts.  Perl has more compressed syntax, and
easier access to built-in functionality, like integrated hashes and
regular expressions.  They aren't *new*, you can do them in C, but it
takes work.  To include Perl's *advantage* into C, you would either
have to extend the C syntax, or rewrite your C compiler to understand
Perl.  To use it, you would have to learn either the new syntax, or
learn actual Perl!  In just the same way, you can write in English
letters, Wu2 sheng1 ye3 you3 ya2, er3 zhi1 ye3 wu2 ya2.  Yi3 you3 ya2
sui2 wu2 ya2, dai4 yi3; yi3 er3 wei2 zhi1 zhe3, dai4 er2 yi3 yi3!
But to understand it (much less appreciate it) you'd need to actually
learn classical Chinese.  You can rewrite it in English (it means
something sort of like My life has a limit, but knowledge has no
limit.  To use that which has a limit to pursue that which has no
limit, is a disaster; to think it has [all] been learned, is still a
disaster!), but it just isn't possible to take the best part of the
language and graft it onto English.  Even if you could, you'd be
creating a specialized part of the language that requires specialized
vocabulary and grammar.  And the result wouldn't be familiar to
everyone, and would definitely NOT be ANSI C.

 there isn't any difficulties to implement a good concept
 in one language to another.

To implement, no.  To take advantage of, yes.

 The problem is, if everyone of us use a different language, we cannot
 cooperate, so we must have an official language, and everyone learn
 and use it from the start to end.

People have been cooperating (or not) without a universal language for
a very long time.  The English and the Russians cooperated against
Germany in World War II, and

Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Douglas A. Tutty

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:49:26PM -0500, Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
 
 Although there have been attempts to design one universal
 computer language that serves all purposes, all of them have failed to
 be generally accepted as filling this role.

Ada does a good job.  Except that since no OS is written in it, to get
OS system calls, you have to use the underlying system libraries, which
are usually in C.  This is simple in Ada, but its still mixed-language.  

Of course, if you care to, even on i386 I guess you could start from
scratch and build an embedded system without an underlying OS, all in
Ada.  However, there would be little point.

On the other hand, if you're designing a new air traffic control system
for a country (e.g. Canada), you write it in Ada from scratch with no
underlying OS, no other libraries.  Ditto if you're building a new
fly-by-wire system for an airliner.  

The US military, before they decided to go C.O.T.S. specified Ada for
everything.  They wanted one language that could do everything, and they
got it.  The problem for the rest of us is that people were already
comfortable with all the rules that they could break with C.  For a
commercial company that earns money fixing its own bugs, it doesn't make
commercial sense to retrain everyone in Ada and retool in Ada, only to
inadvertanly write software with fewer bugs (and what bugs there are,
easier to fix).  

Doug.


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Marc Shapiro


Celejar wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:52:41 -0400
Jeff Soules sou...@gmail.com wrote:

...


There are problems for which it would be faster to *learn
perl well enough to write a perl solution* than to write the solution
in C.


Interesting; here's a different perspective (I'm not a serious enough
coder to go on the record with an opinion):

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001145.html


Quoted from the above link:
---
If that doesn't carry enough weight for you, how does it sound coming 
from Charles Moore, the creator of FORTH?


A second corollary was even more heretical: Do it yourself!

The conventional approach, enforced to a greater or lesser extent,
is that you shall use a standard subroutine. I say that you should write 
your own subroutines.


Before you can write your own subroutines, you have to know how. This 
means, to be practical, that you have written it before; which makes it 
difficult to get started. But give it a try. After writing the same 
subroutine a dozen times on as many computers and languages, you'll be 
pretty good at it.

---

Note that, while this says that reinventing the wheel CAN be worthwhile, 
it also says to do so in MANY DIFFERENT LANGUAGES!


--
Marc Shapiro
mshapiro...@yahoo.com



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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?



On Jun 24, 2009, at 1:21 AM, Cowley Harris wrote:


This guy asked a relatively simple question which I'm paraphrasing
here as can you run Debian without perl or python, the answer is
pretty much no.
He gave his reasons for the question and his opinion on the answers he
was given.  He's also started probably the most interesting thread on
this list for a while.


I think the interest has come from people responding to him, not from  
anything he's said.



As I've read it, he's not attacked anyone personally even when
disagreeing with people and yet he is being personally attacked for
his opinions.

Well, here is my opinion, if you feel threatened enough by someone who
disagrees with you, that you must insult them, it's a sign of a weak
logic or a weak mind.  It's the reaction typical of a zealot, fool or
troll and not the response of someone with some useful knowledge to
share.


I don't see anyone being threatened by him or acting like they're  
threatened.  I know I've stated my thoughts on this as I've seen some  
patterns emerge, such as his statements getting more and more extreme  
and as many of them show more and more of a claim to knowing something  
it's clear he does not know.  But I haven't seen anyone insult him yet  
-- but then I haven't read many of the overnight posts yet.



I don't agree with him that a  one programming language system
would be the right way to do things or that it would lead to a
bright future of our free software world. but I'm not going to insult
him for his belief.  In fact it might be a good thing that he tries
this endeavor.

“Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people
attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore,
depends on unreasonable people.” GB Shaw.


Yes, that's a cute quotation.  I can also cite Zen quotations or other  
sources about the wisdom of knowing when to fight and when not to, or  
when to push a big rock out of the way or when it's better to walk  
around that rock.



The benefits of multiple languages over a 1 language system (1LS) is
that it gives you the ability to program at the appropriate level of
the problem space. The studies show that the higher level you program
the more instructions you have per line, and yet the  bugs per line
stay about the same.
The studies also show that the amount  of LOC produced by programmers
of the same skill level is about the same, whether they use assembly,
c or java, and yet the amount of instructions per LOC  increase with
level of the language. More productivity in the same time span is a
major advantage.


Definitely.  There are definite advantages to a higher level language  
and we are well past the days when we gained any significant advantage  
by having a programmer write in Assembler to save memory space and CPU  
time instead of having the same system done in a higher level  
language, whether it's an interpreted one or compiled one.



On a personal note, I think that programmers that use different
languages can communicate in meta-programming terms, a hash-table is
a hash-table whether you call it a hash or a dictionary.  The benefits
of a 1LS would be small in comparison to the benefits of plural
system.


Which is what pretty much everyone but the OP has said.  I think we  
all agree on that.  I've found times where I may be talking with  
someone who knows one language but does not know the one I'm working  
in that I'm using a modified hash table or I'll say, It's something  
like a hash table, but it's my own class, so there's some extra  
functions.  That generally does well enough.  I've never had a  
problem talking with another programmer who is not familiar with the  
language I'm using where I couldn't communicate what I was doing easily.



Hal

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?



On Jun 24, 2009, at 1:53 AM, 明覺 wrote:

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:32 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il  
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 12:21:22 -0400
Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com wrote:




...


I'm being blunt, but, honestly, I run a business on custom software
I've written and I can do it because I learned from those who knew
more than I did.  If I refused to learn from people on this and  
other

lists, I'd be an idiot and would still be wasting most of my life at
the keyboard.  I found one can save days, weeks, months, or even
years, by listening to those with experience.  You don't seem to  
want

to listen to the experience of many.



Learn from other people's errors, you don't have time to make them  
all yourself ;-)


Like others said, learn whats the right tool for the job, do the  
jobs you feel
like and leave the others to the ones who like other jobs better.  
Don't forget to live.
Like I like to say, I'm more scared of not living than of dying. I  
hope you can

figure out the meaning ...
I also find that messing about in languages I know nothing about  
tought me also
about those I do know something about and also tought me what I  
don't want to

do and what I'm wasting my time on with the wrong tool

That's fine, but don't come crying to us in 3-4 years when you  
realize

how much time you've wasted with such a capricious fetish.



I'm still claiming that the world would have been a better place if  
computers
hadn't been invented, or at least if user interface (cli, gui,  
whatever) has
never been invented, and the more I learn the more I'm convinced on  
that

matter ;-)

I used to be more of a purist like you but after going through, c, c 
++, java,
matlab, perl, fortran (yes it's still alive and kicking ...),  
assembly, basic,
pascal, logo, lisp and I don't know how many others I came to the  
concultion
that if I can save three weeks programing, let the program run a  
couple of days
instead of a couple of hours (assuming it needs to be run once or  
twice) and go
out to date my wife, mountain bike, kite surf, watch the sunset or  
whatever,

I'm much better of and sociaty is not the worst of it.

If I do not change the reality, I will suffer till I'm dying; If I try
to change the reality, maybe i will just suffer 20 years, and rest for
my last 20 years.


And the first place to change reality is YOUR PERCEPTION.  There is no  
suffering here, other than your refusal to learn or use other  
languages.  This is a task that, if you apply yourself, you will  
master in 6 months or so.  The other task, that you propose, is not a  
20 year task -- it won't be finished that quickly.


So why suffer for 20 years when there's no reason to suffer for longer  
than a few months?


As for resting the last 20 years, that assumes that there are enough  
people who value your work that they'll pay you enough that you will  
be able to rest, as opposed to finding whatever job you can to  
continue to support you.  You've been given a plethora of reasons why  
programmers do NOT want a unified language.  If they wanted one  
language, there are many programmers far wiser than anyone here that  
could have started that over the past few decades, but none of them  
have.  Why?  Because there is not only no need for one, but because  
it's counter productive.


Hal

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.

In 20090624052259.ga4...@galactic.demon.co.uk, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
Russell Coker on Planet.debian had a post yesterday or so where he pointed
to the very wise advice he'd been given, essentially the people who write
compilers and toolchains are smarter/better programmers
than you are: if you think you've found a bug in their compiler, its
almost always in your code.

There will be a point in your development of programming skills where this 
is no longer true.  (Mostly, because you won't blame the compiler/toolchain 
except in the rarest of circumstances, after triple-checking yourself and 
having *at least* one other programmer you trust look at it.)

You can be just as smart/good as them without having to write compilers and 
toolchains.  Not all are called to such black arts.
-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
b...@iguanasuicide.net  ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/



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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?



On Jun 24, 2009, at 2:07 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:


On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 01:43:35PM +0800, 明覺 wrote:


What about XML, YAML, HTML, javascript, and such? No more browser?  
No

more internet? :-)

Of course I will use all of them, I even use windows vista everyday
for playing games, that's my user role; for my programmer role, I  
will

use Xml and html, for they are data files, not programming languages,
I will try to write my own brower in C++, and use a subset of C++ to
be the dhtml programming language instead of javascript.




OK. I'll bite :) 15 years ago, I studied a couple of terms of evening
classes in programming in C.

One of the exercises thrown at us was: Build a reservation system  
for a

10 seat commuter aeroplane.

Small, simple, defined - but harder than it looks on paper. Go for it:
from your posts, you have the programming credentials.
Try the following exercise:

Build one in PHP / webforms (or Javascript) - web languages, anyway.

Build one in pure Perl.

Build one in C or C++ writing to a MySQL/Postgres database.

Build one in C / C++ alone.

Build one in assembler.

Shouldn't take you long. That'll give you a much better feel for how/ 
why

different approaches have their strengths and weaknesses. It will mean
you're porting code that should be familiar and that you can read and
understand because you wrote it. Its a limited problem: the real world
is harder.

For extra credit, put it up on a website somewhere and submit the URL
back here for the code to be analysed by others here.



And, in terms of usability and compatibility, since one is done for a  
browser, meaning a web front end, then be sure to write the others so  
they use a GUI.  Sure, do them first from the command line if you  
want, but then when you're done, make them all work with a GUI.


Come back when you're done. Then decide whether your ideas are  
feasible.


I think this is a major point Andrew makes.  This is a simple program,  
but, as I've pointed out, your comments indicate almost no experience  
in many parts of the programming world.  Just trying to do this simple  
program in the ways he's suggested requires skills that the OP's  
comments make it clear he has not yet attained.


Now if the OP had shown he's been there, done that, gone through all  
these kinds of experiences, I think many of us would take his comments  
MUCH more seriously.



Hal

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?



On Jun 24, 2009, at 2:09 AM, 明覺 wrote:

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il  
wrote:


...


The only one language for microsoft is c#, oh wait, its visual  
basic, sorry
wait a minute it's forms for the gui, assembly in the drivers in if  
you start
digging you will find that half the system management is using  
scripts and

batch scripts of one sort or another.

I mean .net framework, I don't know they use scripts so heavily, but I
think they are reducing the use of scripts, you even cannot find a
command line console in vista.


I can.  Used it on my Mother's computer when running tests when  
Comcast, the local crappy cable/Internet provider screwed up.  I know  
it's there because I've used it.


What leads you to think it's not there?


Hal

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.

In 20090624095519.35472r7kcfcmb...@mail.kalinowski.com.br, Eduardo M 
KALINOWSKI wrote:
On Qua, 24 Jun 2009, 明覺 wrote:
 I can tell you now, I really do not like gcc, for it supports so many
 useless languages,

gcc is a C compiler, supporting only that.
g++ is a C++ compiler.
gfortran is a fortran compiler.
... and so on.

Maybe you are confusing gcc (the C compiler) with the GNU Compiler
Suite, which is a set of compilers for several languages.

Capitalization is important.  GCC is the GNU Compiler Collection, which 
has numerous frontends, backends, and quite a bit of shared code in the 
middle.  gcc basename of the UNIX binary that is the C language frontend 
part of GCC.

DNS is case insensitive, making gcc.gnu.org == GCC.GNU.org.  
GCC.GNU.org is the home of GCC.
-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
b...@iguanasuicide.net  ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread owens

 Original Message 
From: shi.min...@gmail.com
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without
python and perl?
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:04:28 +0800

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Jochen Schulzm...@well-adjusted.de
wrote:
 ??:

 thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have
been
 tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called learning,
it's
 just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to
 C/C++.

 This is plain wrong. How do you do closures in C/C++? What about
higher
 order functions, pattern matching, dynamic typing? How do you even
dare
dynamic typing is so easy, for every object is a piece of memory, so
a
dynamic type is just a memory type.
I believe every language has its own advantages, my solution is to
integrate all the advantages of all the languages into one language,
which can be called any name, not only C/C++, just because gnu/linux
is mainly written in C and C++ is the widely used OOP language, so I
choose C/C++ as the basis. In this way, we get all the benifit, and
avoid all the overlappings among different languages.
 to complain about SQL (in another post of yours), if your only
complaint
 is that it is unlike C in some respects? SQL (without stored
procedures)
 is not even turing complete!
I surely dare to complain sql, it's a programming languge with all
the
general functions such as string processing, can't you hear the
complaint from most programmers? microsoft has even replaced sql
programming by .net framework. If you think I complain sql and other
languages just because they are unlike C, you are too hard to
communicate with.

 If you already know the terms I mentioned and still think they
don't add
 anything to what's already in C/C++ then you didn't understand
them.

 J.
 --
 Nothing is as I planned it.
 [Agree]   [Disagree]

http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html

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Seems to me the US Government tried this with ADA, supposedly a
superset of previous languages.  Its failure is well-documented.
Larry

-- 
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shplayer|Codeblocks)
Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl
??,??,??,????,??

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?



On Jun 24, 2009, at 2:11 AM, 明覺 wrote:

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il  
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:18:16 +0800
明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org  
wrote:

明覺 writes:
yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to  
take full
control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those  
other
language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be  
hard to

maintain for me.


If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard  
for you
you aren't much of a programmer.  Programming is not about  
knowing a

language.

Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same  
functions.


What you are saying is that you just don't want tools around.

First of all they don't have the same function (and if you'd use  
them you'd
know). And if you knew something you would know that c may be  
powerful but it
is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one  
line that you

would need 100s of lines of code with c.

100s of lines of C code? how about drop the 100 lines into a function?



1) Not all libraries are bug free and producing such a library takes  
considerable effort and why does one need that effort when one can  
produce the same program quickly and easily in Python?


2) Perhaps it's not a specific function that will be re-used later,  
perhaps it's a combination of several things.


3) Considering that Python is written in C (or at least parts of it),  
if it worked better to include those functions in C, instead of in a  
new language, then the same code could have been done as a C library.   
How many people are trying to do that?


4) Do that.  Then do it for EVERY Python function.  And EVERY Perl  
function.  And just try doing it with really high level languages.   
And see how HUGE a library you have -- it'll be so overburdened that  
nobody will be able to easily learn the API.  People will stick with  
the original languages because it's easier to learn that language than  
such a complex library with an API.


Now, here's one for you: You resist, in every possible way, learning  
any new languages and talk about how bad it is that you have to learn  
them.  What languages do you know well?  Which ones have you taken  
time to learn and to use for more than just a simple program?  And  
what are your real objections to different languages and using them?


The more I read your posts the more I get the impression that the  
issue here is you just want to justify not having to learn languages,  
which makes me wonder if you were hand-fed what it took to learn C and  
C++ and basically have never mastered any other language and don't  
want to -- and are going into more effort to justify that than what it  
would take to learn how to learn languages.



Hal

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Johannes Wiedersich

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

明覺 wrote:
 One Microsoft Way is perfect if all the microsoft softwares are
 free as LGPL.

You realize how silly it is to use free and one way in the same
sentence?

Freedom is the very opposite of having one prefered way for all.

Cheers and happy trolling,

Johannes
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?



On Jun 24, 2009, at 8:05 AM, 明覺 wrote:


On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Dale Harrisrod...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 02:45:45PM +0800, 明覺 wrote:

thank you! I thought they are kind to give me advice, but I'm wrong,
they just want to laught at me, it doesn't matter, I finally know  
it,

and maybe next time I will discover it earlier.
I still insist my ideal: one language for computer programming!


There is one language for all computer programming, it's the  
machine language.

Everything reduces to that.  It's all a bunch of ones and zeros.

But then are you running on an Intel based platform, MIPS, ARM?  Oh  
darn,

different assembly languages.

Face it, now speaking in metaphor, trying to insist on a hammer  
when you
need a screwdriver will just make your life a living hell.  You  
must be

adaptable.
you do not understand me, and I've been tired to explain my  
thoughts. thanks.


Oh, we understand you quite well.

Do you understand what we're saying?


Hal

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Nate Bargmann

* 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com [2009 Jun 24 06:39 -0500]:
 On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Nate Bargmannn...@n0nb.us wrote:

 I can tell you now, I really do not like gcc, for it supports so many
 useless languages, I surely will write my own compiler. 

Have you also reinvented the wheel?  Did you build the streets you walk
on?  Did you build your own computer from pure silicon, oil, and ore? 
Did you build your own Internet to reach the Debian mail servers?  You
are not a purist unless you have done these things.  Any reliance on
others for your computing experience compromises your integrity. 
Surely you must know that you are on a maddening and never end quest of
purity.  

To get an idea of where such a misguided quest might lead, might I
suggest that you read Robert Pirsig's 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values'.  A Web search will find it
online.

OTOH, your folly only appears to be surpassed by your bravado.

 What a pity you are!

I suppose that is a matter of perspective.

- Nate 

-- 

The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true.

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://n0nb.us/index.html


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread owens

 Original Message 
From: h...@halblog.com
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without
python and  perl?
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:41:58 -0400

On Jun 24, 2009, at 2:09 AM, ?? wrote:

 On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Micha
Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il  
 wrote:

 ...

 The only one language for microsoft is c#, oh wait, its visual  
 basic, sorry
 wait a minute it's forms for the gui, assembly in the drivers in
if  
 you start
 digging you will find that half the system management is using  
 scripts and
 batch scripts of one sort or another.
 I mean .net framework, I don't know they use scripts so heavily,
but I
 think they are reducing the use of scripts, you even cannot find a
 command line console in vista.

I can.  Used it on my Mother's computer when running tests when  
Comcast, the local crappy cable/Internet provider screwed up.  I
know  
it's there because I've used it.

What leads you to think it's not there?

Hal

Ken Thompson help me but I've just looked it up on my wife's Vista
machine (her employer requires it incidently)
StartAll ProgramsAccessoriesCommand Prompt
Larry
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Hans Vogelsberger


明覺 schrieb:


you do not understand me, and I've been tired to explain my thoughts. thanks.


Then stop explaining your thoughts and 'ideals' forever and all of us 
will be happy.


Hans






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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Cowley Harris

Hal Vaughan wrote.

  But I haven't seen anyone insult him yet -- but then I
 haven't read many of the overnight posts yet.

Anybody here watch The daily show. The first time I ever saw a show,
they had a piece where they had Donald Rumsfeld denying he had ever
said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, then they cut to
old news footage of Rumsfeld saying We know they've got weapons of
mass destruction, we know where they are. Classic.

you're off your rocker
I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth.
You're not just ignorant
...just plain ignorant and stupid

also interesting was the use of disparaging remarks about anyone who
agreed with him
Nobody agrees with you.  At least nobody with any programming talent
and experience.

and that's just you from one email. Do you actually read what you are typing?
Here is a bit of your own email you should have read, the bit where
you say no point in continuing any discussion. Because you kept on
replying, which _is_ _how_ _to_ _continue_ _the_ _discussion_.

It's clear they all have significantly more experience than you and
they're telling you, There is no point to what you're doing.,
If you read the comments at the start, there were suggestions on ways
do what he wanted to do, or suggestions of systems that are primarily
C based. Not only are you not reading your own emails, you are not
reading others.

And to the people (Neal Hogan, Lisi Reisz),  who had seemed to have
the biggest problems with what he was saying, who contributed the
least logic and factual statements to the entire discussion.  A big
ironic thanks for contributing noise to the signal.

--snip--

 “Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people
 attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore,
 depends on unreasonable people.” GB Shaw.

 Yes, that's a cute quotation.  I can also cite Zen quotations or other
 sources about the wisdom of knowing when to fight and when not to, or when
 to push a big rock out of the way or when it's better to walk around that
 rock.

Great, you can go google up some zen and I'll pretend I care.

I now have a list of trolls to ignore, at least some good that came of
the discussion.


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Micha Feigin

On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:17:33 +0100
Tom Furie t...@furie.org.uk wrote:

 On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 02:11:31PM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
  On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote:
 
   is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one line 
   that you
   would need 100s of lines of code with c.
  100s of lines of C code? how about drop the 100 lines into a function?
 
 You still need to put those 100s of lines of code in somewhere.

Thats not my problem. Even with python the 100s of lines are there behind the
scenes. What interests me is that _I_ need to write only one line and then I
can go outside and smell the flowers. The code is a byproduct that is not that
interesting in itself. It usually comes to solve some problem and I'd rather
spend my time on the problem than on the code.

There is another point, it's much easier to debug 1 line of code than a hundred.

c is a swiss army knife, low level, very powerful, will solve everything with
enough work. If someone didn't build a tool for the job yet, c is probably your
answear. I still wouldn't want to carve a surfboard using an army knife if I
can just pick a complete surfboard and spend my time surfing instead.

Regretably I spend quite a bit of time with c, among other things because it's
the right tool for MY job (fortran and matlab are usually better, but for some
things thats what I've got), and as someone who knows c quite well, I tell
people to stay away if they have a quicker way.

 
 cheers,
 Tom
 


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-24 Thread Micha Feigin

On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:53:51 +0800
明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:

 2009/6/24 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:
 
  On Jun 23, 2009, at 10:57 AM, 明覺 wrote:
 
  2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:
 
  On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:10 PM, 明覺 wrote:
 
  2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:
 
  On Jun 22, 2009, at 8:00 AM, 明覺 wrote:
  ...
 
  Looks like a strange idea to me to run a one programming language
  only
  system, it would hint that there's a one fits all language and
  other
  are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess
  ;-)
  )
 
  yes, currently, I'm almost a one programming language only people,
  I
  can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should
  be optional, not necessory!
 
  Necessary for what?! For you to use a computer? It seems as though
  you're being unreasonable (on many fronts), but if you are not fan of
  certain software, then don't use it. Don't bitch about how it was
  developed. Those folks (eg., gnome, X.org, etc.) produced a product
  the way that they did and then offered it to the masses for free.
 
  cliche
  Beggers can't be choosers.
  /cliche
 
  you treat yourself a begger, I'm not, I'm a chooser. Happy begging to
  you!
 
  A rose by any other name is still a rose.  You can call yourself a
  chooser,
  but your actions show you to be a begger.
 
  Thanks for the long reply!
  I still do not think I'm a begger, as I have decided to work on the
  MikeOS, which is a assembly language programmed free OS. Of cause,
  currently I need to use Vista or Debian for everyday life, but my
  heart is on my own programmed OS, and I hope I will switch to my own
  OS after some years.
 
  You're a beggar.  You want what you want from other people in an easy
  format
  so they've packaged it for you.  When you're asking others for something,
  you're the beggar.  You can TRY to also be the chooser, but if that were
  the
  case, and you were a chooser, then you'd be selecting from several
  available
  choices.
 
  I don't agree with you, I'm just looking for some people who have the
  same thinking with me, I'm not begging from them, for they also need
  my paticipation very much.
 
  1) You're being literal and focusing on exact meanings, instead of
  interpreting the entire idiom.
  2) We all look at our situation and interpret it with us having the highest
  and best goals.  None of us look at ourselves as clearly as those who look
  from a distance.
 I sure know my ideal is far from the reality, but I think the meaning
 of life is to spend some time in realizing my ideal.
 
 
 
  First, when you look at what's in even just a minimal Linux install,
  there
  is no way you're ever going to get through working on more than a few
  programs in the next few years.  Second, when a programmer writes a
  program,
  if he has any wisdom (which is knowledge gained through experience,
  hence
  the more years, the more experience and the more wisdom), he will use
  the
  right tool for the right job.  For instance, I need to use mainly Perl
  and
  Java, but have used many other languages.  I find I can code 5x faster
  in
  Perl than Java and about the same, maybe better if I use Perl instead
  of
  C++.  Hardly any of my Perl code is done as a wrapper for a C or C++
  program.  It is valid code that does a LOT of work and does it well.
  Since
  it's text processing, to do the same work in C or C++ would be a
  nightmare.
 
  If we setup proper C/C++ library for text processing, we can reach the
  same effect as Perl, why cannot? for any piece of perl code, I believe
  I'm able to write a piece of C++ code as simple to replace it, on top
  of a proper library. It's the same for python, java and other
  languages. I worked on C# for 4 years, it's also a very efficient
  language, but I can drop it, for I know, C# is just C++ with a good
  library, the .net framework, but its cost is an additional layer, the
  .net runtime and its intermedia language.
 
  There are C and C++ text processing libraries.  They don't have the power
  of
  Perl or Python or other languages.  C has been around for decades and
  contributed to and worked on and used by many, MANY programmers.  These
  people have more experience than you or I and their combined experience
  is
  enormous.  If C was such a great language for doing every thing out
  there,
  and we'll use text processing as an example, why haven't these people
  released libraries that do all that Perl does already?  One answer is
  that
 
  good question, why haven't released those C libraries? I will release
  one in the future, I'm sure I'm able to replace perl by C, including
  change C a little, but changing C a little is much better than
  creating a new language like perl.
 
  When you get into writing them, I think you'll see.  Actually, it's kind of
  funny to look at this and see a young and inexperienced programmer thinking
  he's going to be able to do what many, many master programmers have never

Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?



On Jun 24, 2009, at 5:57 PM, Cowley Harris wrote:


Hal Vaughan wrote.

 But I haven't seen anyone insult him yet -- but then I
haven't read many of the overnight posts yet.

Anybody here watch The daily show. The first time I ever saw a show,
they had a piece where they had Donald Rumsfeld denying he had ever
said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, then they cut to
old news footage of Rumsfeld saying We know they've got weapons of
mass destruction, we know where they are. Classic.

you're off your rocker


Yes, a judgement call.  Did you look at the context?  Please, if you  
want to make me look bad, have the courtesy to quote me in context.   
The line was, All of US are telling you that you're off your rocker  
and on a fool's quest.  It's a quick paraphrase of much of what has  
been said, and in context (which includes his question before it,  
which I'll leave to you to research), it's also idiomatic.



I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth.


That's not an insult.  Look over his comments.  I'll add that I've  
been corresponding with him privately as well.  I'm not a counselor or  
LCSW or psychologist, but I have enough experience to recognize when  
someone is avoiding something from fear or trying to avoid work they  
don't want to do.  I'll qualify myself if you need me to.



You're not just ignorant


Ignorant is a quantifiable judgement which fits because he has  
demonstrated an amazing lack of knowledge in the field in discussion.



...just plain ignorant and stupid


Not an insult, a judgement call, but one that can be supported.  Yes,  
maybe stupid can be an insult.  IF context did not make a difference.   
I was calling the attitude just plain ignorant and stupid.  That is  
not insulting the person.  If you think so, then take teacher training  
and see why there is so much focus on addressing problems with a kid's  
actions, not with them.


Now you can go on, but I stopped reading here because you pretty much  
took comments out of context to make your point.


In other words, you tried to say that he makes me insecure and tried  
to focus on me insulting him when, what you've actually done, is  
exactly what you accuse me of.  It's called projection: We like to say  
others are doing what we don't want to admit we're doing.


The OP has made MANY statements that show he does not know his field.   
He's been given a LOT of good information, yet persists on saying that  
his way is right and that others don't understand him.  That is, point  
blank, ignorant.  I may not be smooth, I may not be graceful, but I'm  
not afraid to say, This is ignorant, when it is.


And next time you want to accuse me or others of doing something,  
don't pull out just the parts that support your side and figure the  
context and parts that disprove it will be ignored or can be discarded.


Feel free to misquote me more.  I won't be reading it, though.  I have  
a short tolerance for people that take my words out of context and try  
to say that they mean something other than what they mean in the full  
context in which they're used.  In other words, at first I thought you  
might have had a point -- until you came on announcing, with the Jon  
Stewart reference, that you were going to seriously make me look like  
a full, but could only do so by removing the context of my statements.



Hal


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Jochen Schulz

明覺:

 thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been
 tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called learning, it's
 just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to
 C/C++.

This is plain wrong. How do you do closures in C/C++? What about higher
order functions, pattern matching, dynamic typing? How do you even dare
to complain about SQL (in another post of yours), if your only complaint
is that it is unlike C in some respects? SQL (without stored procedures)
is not even turing complete!

If you already know the terms I mentioned and still think they don't add
anything to what's already in C/C++ then you didn't understand them.

J.
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:35:08 明覺 wrote:
 I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my  questions about
 programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
 debian user.

a) Why *shouldn't* we ignore your Debian questions if we happen to feel like 
it?

b) Debian user?  But you have already said that you dislike the way Debian is 
written and are switching over to MikeOS.  Be our guest.  

I imagine that many, if not most, of us are very happy Debian users who are 
grateful for advice from those more experienced than ourselves, and very, 
very grateful to the developers.

Lisi


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:18:34 明覺 wrote:
 I believe readers of this thread are all advanced programmers,

I'm not.  

 they 
 won't be confusing.

You mean confused not confusing.  An important difference. 

Lisi


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Tony Baldwin


Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:35:08 明覺 wrote:

I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my  questions about
programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
debian user.


a) Why *shouldn't* we ignore your Debian questions if we happen to feel like 
it?


+1



b) Debian user?  But you have already said that you dislike the way Debian is 
written and are switching over to MikeOS.  Be our guest.  



+1



I imagine that many, if not most, of us are very happy Debian users who are 
grateful for advice from those more experienced than ourselves, and very, 
very grateful to the developers.




+2

/tony



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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Tony Baldwin

Lisi Reisz wrote:
 On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:18:34 明覺 wrote:
 I believe readers of this thread are all advanced programmers,
 
 I'm not.  
 
 they 
 won't be confusing.
 
 You mean confused not confusing.  An important difference. 
 


Really...
Being only a wannabe hacker, and not yet a real hacker, I have to say
that real programmers are often confusing...
But I'll keep learning.

/tony
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.

In 20090623111601.gp19...@wasteland.homelinux.net, Jochen Schulz wrote:
明覺:
 thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been
 tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called learning, it's
 just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to
 C/C++.

This is plain wrong. 
How do you do closures in C/C++?

Function-objects. (Examples in STL.)

What about higher
order functions,

Function-objects plus tuple types. (Tuple types in latest C++ standard, I 
think; In Boost anyway.)

pattern matching,

That same way it's done it other languages, either statically (in C++ using 
templates) or slowly and painfully.

dynamic typing?

Bah.  As long as the language is strongly typed, I prefer all my types to be 
static.  Type errors should be detected before run time.  [I'm only willing 
to let value errors slip until run time so I can accept user input. ;)]

Still.  C++ is neither strongly nor dynamically typed, which is quite 
unfortunate, but are language choices.  In comparision, it would be fairly 
impossible to do weak, static typing in Ruby or Python, too.

I don't agree with the OP, though.  Languages like Perl, Python, PHP, and 
Ruby allow you to trade off (very little) run time or memory for (usually a 
lot) of man-hours.  CPU cycles and RAM is much cheaper than Labor costs at 
those ratios, and *all* of those languages have some way of calling into 
C/C++ for things that just have to be written in those languages.

I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, and 
Lisp.  teaseOnly *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based 
languages. ;)/tease
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Henning Follmann

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:39:53AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:
 
[...]
  Boy, I didn't realize that by junior programmer you meant you were that
  inexperienced in the field.  I don't know if you realize that you've just
  basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the
  different reasons for different languages.
 
  EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT
  purpose.
 I will give an example to deny your opinion - a DIFFERENT tool with a
 DIFFERENT purpose
 Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is
 to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like
 the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will
 be C#, I guess. Then what's the only one language for linux? I think
 it's C/C++.

Oh boy, I call BS!
linq by no means replaces sql. It maybe a layer on top of (also) sql.
But even the .NET (NOT c#!!) is not coherent. An MS does not gravitate only to 
c#.

[...]

-- 
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it consultant  | www.itcfollmann.com


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Jeff Soules

I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
debian user.

Quick storytime: Several years back, I was writing some XML format
converters in Perl. There are wonderful pre-written Perl modules to
parse and output XML. But I wanted to learn more, so I insisted on
doing it all myself. (Management wasn't watching me too closely.) It
took me three times as long to write and the code wasn't flexible or
maintainable... and honestly, I didn't learn anything worthwhile, but
I wanted to learn. Now, whenever I find myself doing this, I look
back at that: do I *really* want to spend my time inventing inferior
ways to parse XML? Is it so interesting to write string parsers?
What am I learning? How much better it is just to learn the common
tools! If I want to learn, I'm better off reading someone else's
great code than writing my own bad code. It's not the waste of time
those scripts languages bring to us programmers -- they exist to SAVE
time. If you doubt it, challenge a perl programmer to a race
sometime. There are problems for which it would be faster to *learn
perl well enough to write a perl solution* than to write the solution
in C.

You keep coming back to this argument that I hope one day I will be
able to take full control of my system, and modify [it] as i like.
An admirable goal -- but what does it actually *mean*? What are you
going to do with this system? You're going to give up most of the
functionality of a good Linux distro so you can... mess around with
the way your personal hardware handles filesystem journaling, or
memory allocation, or something? That's really the most interesting
problem you can think of solving with computers?

You really need to rethink your priorities. A mature person would
accept that when a solution has been endorsed by thousands of people
over decades, there might be something worthwhile to it, even if it is
unfamiliar at first. The majority isn't always right, but their ideas
are at least worth considering.

Good luck.

~Jeff Soules

2009/6/22 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com:
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote:
明覺 writes:
yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full
control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to
maintain for me.

If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you
you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
language.
Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.
--
John Hasler

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Tuesday 23 June 2009 16:12:26 Tony Baldwin wrote:
 Lisi Reisz wrote:
  On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:18:34 明覺 wrote:
  I believe readers of this thread are all advanced programmers,
 
  I'm not.
 
  they
  won't be confusing.
 
  You mean confused not confusing.  An important difference.

 Really...
 Being only a wannabe hacker, and not yet a real hacker, I have to say
 that real programmers are often confusing...

:-) But it is still not what he meant!

 But I'll keep learning.

 /tony
 --
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Hilco Wijbenga

2009/6/21 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com:
 I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
 python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
 reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
 and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
 manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?

(This is in response to various comments/answers you gave, not just
this initial email.)

FYI:
perl: C program
python: C program
(ba)sh: C program
ruby: C program
sed: C program
awk: C program
the list continues...

And have you thought about make, m4, gcc, autotools? They all have/are
their own language that you need to learn. gcc uses Lisp (or
something like it) internally, are you now no longer going to use a
compiler? No more make because it requires you to learn its language?
How are you going to build your code?

What about XML, YAML, HTML, javascript, and such? No more browser? No
more internet? :-)

On a different note, have you realised just how much you need to know
before you know your whole system? Just the Linux kernel is (2.6.29)
is 11 million SLOC. Debian 4.0 was a whopping 283 million SLOC. To
quote some more from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code:

A similar study was later made of Debian Linux version 2.2 (also
known as Potato); this version of Linux was originally released in
August 2000. This study found that Debian Linux 2.2 included over 55
million SLOC, and if developed in a conventional proprietary way would
have required 14,005 person-years and cost $1.9 billion USD to
develop.

Are you going to live that long? Do you have that much money? (If yes
to the latter, could you please send a few million my way?) ;-)

Please think this through and listen to reason before you waste your life.

Cheers,
Hilco


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 12:21:22 -0400
Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com wrote:

 
...
 
 I'm being blunt, but, honestly, I run a business on custom software  
 I've written and I can do it because I learned from those who knew  
 more than I did.  If I refused to learn from people on this and other  
 lists, I'd be an idiot and would still be wasting most of my life at  
 the keyboard.  I found one can save days, weeks, months, or even  
 years, by listening to those with experience.  You don't seem to want  
 to listen to the experience of many.


Learn from other people's errors, you don't have time to make them all yourself 
;-)

Like others said, learn whats the right tool for the job, do the jobs you feel
like and leave the others to the ones who like other jobs better. Don't forget 
to live.
Like I like to say, I'm more scared of not living than of dying. I hope you can
figure out the meaning ...
I also find that messing about in languages I know nothing about tought me also
about those I do know something about and also tought me what I don't want to
do and what I'm wasting my time on with the wrong tool
 
 That's fine, but don't come crying to us in 3-4 years when you realize  
 how much time you've wasted with such a capricious fetish.
 

I'm still claiming that the world would have been a better place if computers
hadn't been invented, or at least if user interface (cli, gui, whatever) has
never been invented, and the more I learn the more I'm convinced on that
matter ;-)

I used to be more of a purist like you but after going through, c, c++, java,
matlab, perl, fortran (yes it's still alive and kicking ...), assembly, basic,
pascal, logo, lisp and I don't know how many others I came to the concultion
that if I can save three weeks programing, let the program run a couple of days
instead of a couple of hours (assuming it needs to be run once or twice) and go
out to date my wife, mountain bike, kite surf, watch the sunset or whatever,
I'm much better of and sociaty is not the worst of it.


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:41:44 -0700
Hilco Wijbenga hilco.wijbe...@gmail.com wrote:

 2009/6/21 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com:
  I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
  python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
  reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
  and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
  manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?

By the way, there are a few window managers that don't depends on perl/python,
I double that there are any desktop managers. None of them will run without
Xorg. It's core is mostly c/c++ by the way, the others are probably mostly for
handling setup files and such.

 
 (This is in response to various comments/answers you gave, not just
 this initial email.)
 
 FYI:
 perl: C program
 python: C program
 (ba)sh: C program
 ruby: C program
 sed: C program
 awk: C program
 the list continues...
 
 And have you thought about make, m4, gcc, autotools? They all have/are
 their own language that you need to learn. gcc uses Lisp (or
 something like it) internally, are you now no longer going to use a
 compiler? No more make because it requires you to learn its language?
 How are you going to build your code?
 
 What about XML, YAML, HTML, javascript, and such? No more browser? No
 more internet? :-)

That would really free up my day, I think I'll take your offer

 
 On a different note, have you realised just how much you need to know
 before you know your whole system? Just the Linux kernel is (2.6.29)
 is 11 million SLOC. Debian 4.0 was a whopping 283 million SLOC. To
 quote some more from
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code:
 
 A similar study was later made of Debian Linux version 2.2 (also
 known as Potato); this version of Linux was originally released in
 August 2000. This study found that Debian Linux 2.2 included over 55
 million SLOC, and if developed in a conventional proprietary way would
 have required 14,005 person-years and cost $1.9 billion USD to
 develop.
 

Just wondering where that last 5 came from? ;-) possibly that's for arguing
with people why you languages other than c/c++ ...

 Are you going to live that long? Do you have that much money? (If yes
 to the latter, could you please send a few million my way?) ;-)

I would like to say to both but I would settle for the first for now, the
second I'll take care of in a few thousand years

 
 Please think this through and listen to reason before you waste your life.
 
 Cheers,
 Hilco
 
 


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:22:38 +0800
明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:

 2009/6/22 Peter Crawford creature...@hotmail.com:
 
  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
  I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
  python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
  reach it?
 
  Eventually you might find DirectFB acceptable.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectFB
 
  Lack of XDirectFB in Debian is a limitation for now.
 thank you, I think DirectFB is the right direction, while X window is
 a strange way for graphic system. I hope I can find a DirectFB
 implementation of window system to replace gnome.

I'm afraid that you are out of lucks as DirectFB won't help your cause either
as there are VERY few programs that support it. I think that there is a media
player, image viewer and possibly a pdf viewer, but not much more. You won't
find anything similar to gnome unless you start writing it. Most gui programs
depend explicitly on xorg calls so won't run without x windows.

You are mostly limited to the console with tcsh and try to ignore the face that
your whole startup and parts of your project management depend on sh, possibly
also perl. Some of the build procedures for you faivorite programs also
probably depend on some scripting language or other. I'm not aware of any pure
c building environment.

 
  regards,   p. crawford
 
 
  _
  We are your photos. Share us now with Windows Live Photos.
  http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666047
 
 
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:39:53 +0800
明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:

 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:
 
  On Jun 22, 2009, at 9:18 PM, 明覺 wrote:
 
  On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote:
 
  明覺 writes:
 
  yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full
  control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
  language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to
  maintain for me.
 
  If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you
  you aren't much of a programmer.  Programming is not about knowing a
  language.
 
  Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
  powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.
 
  Boy, I didn't realize that by junior programmer you meant you were that
  inexperienced in the field.  I don't know if you realize that you've just
  basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the
  different reasons for different languages.
 
  EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT
  purpose.
 I will give an example to deny your opinion - a DIFFERENT tool with a
 DIFFERENT purpose
 Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is
 to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like
 the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will
 be C#, I guess. 

The only one language for microsoft is c#, oh wait, its visual basic, sorry
wait a minute it's forms for the gui, assembly in the drivers in if you start
digging you will find that half the system management is using scripts and
batch scripts of one sort or another.

 Then what's the only one language for linux? I think
 it's C/C++.

I'm afraid you are out of luck. All the init scripts are as the name sugests,
scripts (you may get away without bash but you won't get away without sh which
is basically simple bash). You probably should compile the kernel as
compilation includes scripts (assuming you don't have problems with make
files), emacs is out of the question as half of it is writen in elisp (variant
of list). Vim may be ok, don't know.

You can try dos, but the startup agian depends on batch scripts.

OSx likes objectiveC more than c++, but there is also quite a bit of apple
script and it's unix behind the scene which means perl, bash, python, etc.

 
  It is rarely a whim why a programmer picks one language over another.  There

I found that it's usually due to a whim and a bunch of buzz words. Usually it's
the program you know, but quite often this is due to you picking your initial
language to match the programming you like. I also do find that a lot of
people, esspecially windows people BTW, tend to be narrow minded and lock into
one programming language, usually it's c++ or c#. A lot of times its' the
managers who don't know anything about programing that choose the language.

  are often several, if not many reasons why one language is more appropriate
  and better for a job than another is.
 
  But there's no point in continuing any discussion.  You've made it quite
  clear you're too busy being right to care what anyone more experienced has
  to say -- unless it's what you want to hear.
 
 
 
  Hal
 
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:18:16 +0800
明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote:
  明覺 writes:
  yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full
  control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
  language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to
  maintain for me.
 
  If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you
  you aren't much of a programmer.  Programming is not about knowing a
  language.
 Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
 powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.

What you are saying is that you just don't want tools around.

First of all they don't have the same function (and if you'd use them you'd
know). And if you knew something you would know that c may be powerful but it
is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one line that you
would need 100s of lines of code with c.

Don't try to kill a fly with a cannon, or to quote I don't remember who:
c is a language that has the power of assembly and the ease of use of assembly 
...


  --
  John Hasler
 
 
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Hilco Wijbenga

2009/6/23 Micha Feigin mi...@post.tau.ac.il:
 On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:41:44 -0700
 Hilco Wijbenga hilco.wijbe...@gmail.com wrote:
 A similar study was later made of Debian Linux version 2.2 (also
 known as Potato); this version of Linux was originally released in
 August 2000. This study found that Debian Linux 2.2 included over 55
 million SLOC, and if developed in a conventional proprietary way would
 have required 14,005 person-years and cost $1.9 billion USD to
 develop.

 Just wondering where that last 5 came from? ;-) possibly that's for arguing
 with people why you languages other than c/c++ ...

That's gotta be about Vim vs. Emacs. ;-) Or maybe about where to put
the braces after having decided that Vim rules! :-P

 Are you going to live that long? Do you have that much money? (If yes
 to the latter, could you please send a few million my way?) ;-)

 I would like to say to both but I would settle for the first for now, the
 second I'll take care of in a few thousand years

You're still alive so you have not been proven mortal yet. ;-)


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Jochen Schulz

Micha Feigin:
 On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:39:53 +0800
 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Then what's the only one language for linux? I think
 it's C/C++.
 
 I'm afraid you are out of luck. All the init scripts are as the name sugests,
 scripts (you may get away without bash but you won't get away without sh which
 is basically simple bash). You probably should compile the kernel as
 compilation includes scripts (assuming you don't have problems with make
 files), emacs is out of the question as half of it is writen in elisp (variant
 of list). Vim may be ok, don't know.

Vim is out of the question as well since it includes its own scripting
language. As well as sed, awk, etc. Probably even ed. I am starting to
wonder how many turing complete languages a common Debian system
contains. Probably more than a hundred.

J.
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[Agree]   [Disagree]
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:

On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:35 PM, 明覺 wrote:

2009/6/23 Napoleon rri0...@attglobal.net:

明覺 wrote:

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote:

明覺 writes:

yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take
full
control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard
to
maintain for me.

If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for
you
you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
language.

Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.

What you haven't learned is there are different languages FOR A REASON!
No one language is best for everything. For instance - I can code
web pages in C/C++ - but it is much faster for me to do it in PHP, Perl
or Java. The same is true with anything else.

I've got over 40 years of programming experience; in that time I've
forgotten more languages than you have ever learned. Some no longer
even exist. But every one of them had certain advantages and
disadvantages - and those differences were a major reason why the
languages were chosen for their particular projects.

You don't like the way different languages handle strings - well, guess
what. If they all did everything the same way, they wouldn't be
different languages!

To be blunt (like others) - so you don't like the fact different
languages are being used on your system. There is no way you're going
to be able to rewrite all that code in C/C++ in your lifetime.

So you have two choices. You can accept that fact and continue to
learn, using the tools available to you, no matter what language, just
like the rest of us do.

Or, you can continue to bitch about it and make yourself miserable. In
this case, I suggest you try another profession - if you can't get over
this little bit, you are not suited to be a programmer. This will just
be the first of many frustrations for you.

And one more thing - you can continue to bitch in this email list, but
if you do, it won't be long before people will stop responding to you -
for ANY post, even when you're asking for help.

I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
debian user.

I don't know if your culture is aware of the story of The Boy Who Cried
Wolf, but you might want to look it up and see what it says. The main
point is that if people get used to seeing your emails following a pattern,
after a while, they're not going to bother to read the same comments and
lines of reasoning over and over if they have never found them interesting
in the past.
I think I'm talking about something interesting and serious, I hope
there will be someone who is also interested in my thoughts, for those
who ignore my questions, I can understand, not everyone will agree
with me.

Hal

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Frank Lin PIATfp...@klabs.be wrote:
 On Mon, 2009-06-22 at 17:40 +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Tzafrir Cohentzaf...@cohens.org.il wrote:
  On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
  I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
  python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
  reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
  and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
  manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
  thanks
 
  Let's throw some data into this discussion:
 [..]
  Debconf needs perl. And you won't have much of a Debian system without
  debconf. I wouldn't try removing that one.

 I have quickly analyzed the files in my /usr/bin:
  235 shell script
  71 python programs
  241 perl programs
  986 ELF programs

 So does it mean debian determines
 the use of python and perl? could you help recommend some
 distributions that do not need perl or python? thanks

 Which company would hire a programmer that is unwilling to learn/use
 anything but C/C++? Your employability is low, and it will get lower and
 lower.

 Sorry for telling you the truth, but you can't live in a world with only
 C/C++
I'm looking for a job, and the title of my resume is Asm, C, C++
programmer, if I can find a job, I win; if I cannot, you win. :)

 Franklin





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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Richard Hectorrich...@walnut.gen.nz wrote:
 On Mon, 2009-06-22 at 12:21 -0400, Hal Vaughan wrote:
 On Jun 22, 2009, at 8:00 AM, 明覺 wrote:
 ...

 
  cliche
  Beggers can't be choosers.
  /cliche
  you treat yourself a begger, I'm not, I'm a chooser. Happy begging
  to you!

 A rose by any other name is still a rose.  You can call yourself a
 chooser, but your actions show you to be a begger.

 Many people would say the same about people like me who refuse to have
 any more dealings than necessary with Windows.

 There's room for people with ideals.

 IIRC RMS prefers software to be written in C (not C++; they're different
 languages) for similar reasons.
thank you for the information, but I like C++ for its object oriented,
maybe it's because i'm too influenced by C# and .net framework; but
for bottom and startup code, I'd prefer asm and C.

 Richard



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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Celejar

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:52:41 -0400
Jeff Soules sou...@gmail.com wrote:

...

 Quick storytime: Several years back, I was writing some XML format
 converters in Perl.  There are wonderful pre-written Perl modules to
 parse and output XML.  But I wanted to learn more, so I insisted on
 doing it all myself.  (Management wasn't watching me too closely.)  It
 took me three times as long to write and the code wasn't flexible or
 maintainable... and honestly, I didn't learn anything worthwhile, but
 I wanted to learn.  Now, whenever I find myself doing this, I look
 back at that: do I *really* want to spend my time inventing inferior
 ways to parse XML?  Is it so interesting to write string parsers?
 What am I learning?  How much better it is just to learn the common
 tools!  If I want to learn, I'm better off reading someone else's
 great code than writing my own bad code.  It's not the waste of time
 those scripts languages bring to us programmers -- they exist to SAVE
 time.  If you doubt it, challenge a perl programmer to a race
 sometime.  There are problems for which it would be faster to *learn
 perl well enough to write a perl solution* than to write the solution
 in C.

Interesting; here's a different perspective (I'm not a serious enough
coder to go on the record with an opinion):

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001145.html

Celejar
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Jochen Schulzm...@well-adjusted.de wrote:
明覺:

thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been
tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called learning, it's
just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to
C/C++.

This is plain wrong. How do you do closures in C/C++? What about higher
order functions, pattern matching, dynamic typing? How do you even dare
dynamic typing is so easy, for every object is a piece of memory, so a
dynamic type is just a memory type.
I believe every language has its own advantages, my solution is to
integrate all the advantages of all the languages into one language,
which can be called any name, not only C/C++, just because gnu/linux
is mainly written in C and C++ is the widely used OOP language, so I
choose C/C++ as the basis. In this way, we get all the benifit, and
avoid all the overlappings among different languages.
to complain about SQL (in another post of yours), if your only complaint
is that it is unlike C in some respects? SQL (without stored procedures)
is not even turing complete!
I surely dare to complain sql, it's a programming languge with all the
general functions such as string processing, can't you hear the
complaint from most programmers? microsoft has even replaced sql
programming by .net framework. If you think I complain sql and other
languages just because they are unlike C, you are too hard to
communicate with.

If you already know the terms I mentioned and still think they don't add
anything to what's already in C/C++ then you didn't understand them.

J.
--
Nothing is as I planned it.
[Agree] [Disagree]
http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Lisi Reiszlisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:35:08 明覺 wrote:
I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
debian user.

a) Why *shouldn't* we ignore your Debian questions if we happen to feel like
it?
I only suggest you not ignore my quetsion, of cause you can deny my suggestion.
b) Debian user? But you have already said that you dislike the way Debian is
written and are switching over to MikeOS. Be our guest.
Well, I dislike microsoft, but I'm using Vista; I dislike perl and
python in debian, but I'm using debian; I dislike the web browser in
gNewSense, but I'm using gNewSense.

I imagine that many, if not most, of us are very happy Debian users who are
grateful for advice from those more experienced than ourselves, and very,
very grateful to the developers.
Being grateful doesn't mean I agree with them totally, it's a so simple logic.

Lisi

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith
Jr.b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote:
 In 20090623111601.gp19...@wasteland.homelinux.net, Jochen Schulz wrote:
明覺:
 thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been
 tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called learning, it's
 just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to
 C/C++.

This is plain wrong.
How do you do closures in C/C++?

 Function-objects. (Examples in STL.)

What about higher
order functions,

 Function-objects plus tuple types. (Tuple types in latest C++ standard, I
 think; In Boost anyway.)

pattern matching,

 That same way it's done it other languages, either statically (in C++ using
 templates) or slowly and painfully.

dynamic typing?

 Bah.  As long as the language is strongly typed, I prefer all my types to be
 static.  Type errors should be detected before run time.  [I'm only willing
 to let value errors slip until run time so I can accept user input. ;)]

 Still.  C++ is neither strongly nor dynamically typed, which is quite
 unfortunate, but are language choices.  In comparision, it would be fairly
 impossible to do weak, static typing in Ruby or Python, too.

 I don't agree with the OP, though.  Languages like Perl, Python, PHP, and
 Ruby allow you to trade off (very little) run time or memory for (usually a
 lot) of man-hours.  CPU cycles and RAM is much cheaper than Labor costs at
 those ratios, and *all* of those languages have some way of calling into
 C/C++ for things that just have to be written in those languages.

 I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, and
 Lisp.  teaseOnly *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based
 languages. ;)/tease
Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other
languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their
advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the
ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like.
 --
 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
 b...@iguanasuicide.net   ((_/)o o(\_))
 ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
 http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/





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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:29 PM, Henning
Follmannhfollm...@itcfollmann.com wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:39:53AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:
 
 [...]
  Boy, I didn't realize that by junior programmer you meant you were that
  inexperienced in the field.  I don't know if you realize that you've just
  basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the
  different reasons for different languages.
 
  EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT
  purpose.
 I will give an example to deny your opinion - a DIFFERENT tool with a
 DIFFERENT purpose
 Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is
 to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like
 the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will
 be C#, I guess. Then what's the only one language for linux? I think
 it's C/C++.

 Oh boy, I call BS!
 linq by no means replaces sql. It maybe a layer on top of (also) sql.
 But even the .NET (NOT c#!!) is not coherent. An MS does not gravitate only 
 to c#.
Linq is to replace sql from the bottom, select ... from... where has
been a part of the C#(.net framework) language itself, and there is
even a more formal way to write the select...from...where in C#, not
on top of anything else, even store procedure for sql server can be
programmed and deployed in C# already.

 [...]

 --
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 it consultant  | www.itcfollmann.com


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?



On Jun 23, 2009, at 8:32 PM, 明覺 wrote:
...
I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my  questions  
about
programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions  
as a

debian user.


I don't know if your culture is aware of the story of The Boy Who  
Cried
Wolf, but you might want to look it up and see what it says.  The  
main
point is that if people get used to seeing your emails following a  
pattern,
after a while, they're not going to bother to read the same  
comments and
lines of reasoning over and over if they have never found them  
interesting

in the past.

I think I'm talking about something interesting and serious, I hope
there will be someone who is also interested in my thoughts, for those
who ignore my questions, I can understand, not everyone will agree
with me.


You're talking about something serious, but, as many have pointed out  
to you here, and as I've pointed out to you several times in private  
emails, what you think is interesting is not really of interest to the  
rest of the programming world, and especially to those with experience  
-- and the more experience one has, from what I can tell, the less  
they seem to find that issue interesting.  Most are not as much  
interested in your thoughts as they are in helping you see how you've  
boxed yourself into an area so small and esoteric that if you continue  
on your current path, your work will be of little interest to anyone  
but yourself.


As to who is interested in your thoughts, it goes both ways.  You  
continually reject any comments that disagree with you as valueless or  
as wrong and insist that you are right.  If you treat others,  
especially those with much more experience than you, like that, then  
why are they going to be interested in your comments?




Hal

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?



On Jun 23, 2009, at 8:34 PM, 明覺 wrote:


On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Frank Lin PIATfp...@klabs.be wrote:

On Mon, 2009-06-22 at 17:40 +0800, 明覺 wrote:
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Tzafrir  
Cohentzaf...@cohens.org.il wrote:

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:

I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
python or perl or any other programming languages, is it  
possible to
reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my  
system,
and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a  
desktop
manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop  
manager?

thanks


Let's throw some data into this discussion:

[..]
Debconf needs perl. And you won't have much of a Debian system  
without

debconf. I wouldn't try removing that one.


I have quickly analyzed the files in my /usr/bin:
235 shell script
71 python programs
241 perl programs
986 ELF programs


So does it mean debian determines
the use of python and perl? could you help recommend some
distributions that do not need perl or python? thanks


Which company would hire a programmer that is unwilling to learn/use
anything but C/C++? Your employability is low, and it will get  
lower and

lower.

Sorry for telling you the truth, but you can't live in a world with  
only

C/C++

I'm looking for a job, and the title of my resume is Asm, C, C++
programmer, if I can find a job, I win; if I cannot, you win. :)


Finding a job is a pain, but the real question is: Can you keep a job  
and not have to keep job swapping and continue to feed and clothe  
yourself and possibly provide for a family if you ever want one or  
continue, year after year, to pay your way in this world if you have  
trouble keeping the jobs you find.


And as for looking for a job, do you want to share why you're  
currently out of a job?



Hal

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?



On Jun 23, 2009, at 9:13 PM, 明覺 wrote:

...
I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog,  
and

Lisp.  teaseOnly *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based
languages. ;)/tease

Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other
languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their
advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the
ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like.


The more I read in this thread, the more I wonder -- does anyone here  
have a link to a video of William Shatner delivering that famous three  
word line in a Saturday Night Live sketch from the '70s or '80s?


I mean, seriously, GET A LIFE.

It's just a programming language.

GET A LIFE.


Hal

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Napoleon

明覺 wrote:
 dynamic typing is so easy, for every object is a piece of memory, so a
 dynamic type is just a memory type.
 I believe every language has its own advantages, my solution is to
 integrate all the advantages of all the languages into one language,
 which can be called any name, not only C/C++, just because gnu/linux
 is mainly written in C and C++ is the widely used OOP language, so I
 choose C/C++ as the basis. In this way, we get all the benifit, and
 avoid all the overlappings among different languages.

Spoken like a true newbie with absolutely no idea what he's talking
about - but is 110% sure he knows more than several million programmers
all over the world with much more programming experience.

You just don't get it, do you?  There are different programming
languages because there are NEEDS for different programming languages.
There will NEVER be one programming language which meets all
requirements.  Just like there are hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches and
so on to build things.

And I very much doubt your attitude is helping you get a job.


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Dale Harris

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 09:28:10PM -0400, Napoleon wrote:
 
 You just don't get it, do you?  There are different programming
 languages because there are NEEDS for different programming languages.
 There will NEVER be one programming language which meets all
 requirements.  Just like there are hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches and
 so on to build things.
 

Ah, but one is fabeled. Obviously you've never heard this ancient saying...

One Language to rule them all, One Language to find them,
One Language to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie.


(just kidding folks. ;)


-- 
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rod...@maybe.org
rod...@gmail.com
/.-)


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Neal Hogan

2009/6/23 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com:
 On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith
 Jr.b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote:
 In 20090623111601.gp19...@wasteland.homelinux.net, Jochen Schulz wrote:
明覺:
 thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been
 tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called learning, it's
 just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to
 C/C++.

This is plain wrong.
How do you do closures in C/C++?

 Function-objects. (Examples in STL.)

What about higher
order functions,

 Function-objects plus tuple types. (Tuple types in latest C++ standard, I
 think; In Boost anyway.)

pattern matching,

 That same way it's done it other languages, either statically (in C++ using
 templates) or slowly and painfully.

dynamic typing?

 Bah.  As long as the language is strongly typed, I prefer all my types to be
 static.  Type errors should be detected before run time.  [I'm only willing
 to let value errors slip until run time so I can accept user input. ;)]

 Still.  C++ is neither strongly nor dynamically typed, which is quite
 unfortunate, but are language choices.  In comparision, it would be fairly
 impossible to do weak, static typing in Ruby or Python, too.

 I don't agree with the OP, though.  Languages like Perl, Python, PHP, and
 Ruby allow you to trade off (very little) run time or memory for (usually a
 lot) of man-hours.  CPU cycles and RAM is much cheaper than Labor costs at
 those ratios, and *all* of those languages have some way of calling into
 C/C++ for things that just have to be written in those languages.

 I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, and
 Lisp.  teaseOnly *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based
 languages. ;)/tease
 Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other
 languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their
 advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the
 ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like.

You (uncompromisingly) prefer something you don't even know? And are
(insistently) rejecting things you don't? Is that what you said?

 --
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.

In 752a747f-7c2d-4f79-92e5-915e15df0...@halblog.com, Hal Vaughan wrote:
On Jun 23, 2009, at 9:13 PM, 明覺 wrote:
 I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog,
 and
 Lisp.  teaseOnly *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based
 languages. ;)/tease

 [...] modify the g++ compilers as I like.

If you want to modify gcc, you'll probably want to learn LISP since it uses 
a LISP-liek language internally for certain things.

[D]oes anyone here
have a link to a video of William Shatner delivering that famous three
word line in a Saturday Night Live sketch from the '70s or '80s?

It was posted on /. today.

In any case, for a certain type of programmer, learning a new programming 
language is like discovering a new author, composer, or artist.  The better 
languages have a fingerprint of beauty that is visible in each of the 
better programs written in the language.

Of course, some languages (INTERCAL comes to mind) just make the brain hurt.  
Even those can sometimes teach you something, but are best avoided for real 
work.
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009/6/23 Jeff Soules sou...@gmail.com:
I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
debian user.

Right now you are showing that you're a person who asks for advice,
but does not listen to the response. People value their time and will
not take the time to respond to someone like this, whether you're
speaking as a programmer, a Debian user, an artist, or a fisherman.
Don't waste people's time. Ever.
yes i'm asking for advice, and I'm very happy to get so many good
advices, and I'm trying to form a solution to include all the good
advices, I'm not wasting other's time, we are just discussing and
trying to figure out the best way.

You talk about how different languages are just different ways to do
the same thing. Well... okay... but you're writing to this list in
English. From your sig and your name you're obviously a native
Chinese speaker. Aren't English and Chinese just different ways to
say the same thing? If you don't understand them both well, you
might think so. But some things are much easier to do in one language
versus the other. 飄飄何所似， 天地一沙鷗 -- in English, is it 'just the same
thing?' It's not that Chinese is just better, there are plenty of
things that are more natural in English than in Chinese. Just the
same, if all you see in Perl is wrappers around C functions--if you
think none of them bring new concepts [or clarity or simplicity] to
C/C++ -- then you don't understand Perl. And you need to. Without
lots of different ways of thinking about problems, you're like a frog
in a well, saying look how small the sky is!
A very good comparison -- human languages and programming languages.
Then why we must have an official world language - English? What's the
official language in the programming world? If you say you do not need
an official programming language, then you are saying we do not need
English to be the world official language, I believe no one will
agree with you; if you say every programmer should learn many
languages, then you are saying everyone should learn English,
Chinese, French, oh, I believe everyone will hate you so much, I
guess you are also a chinese, you should know how suffering we chinese
have to learn English.
I value every good concept in every language, but please add that good
concept to my familiar language, not force me to learn a new one; or,
I can reference another language so that I can improve my language,
but please do not force me to use a new one. The way computers working
is simple, so there isn't any difficulties to implement a good concept
in one language to another.
The problem is, if everyone of us use a different language, we cannot
cooperate, so we must have an official language, and everyone learn
and use it from the start to end.

I'm perhaps a junior programmer myself. I can and have used C and
Pascal. I've taught Java. I'm working on projects with JavaScript
and I use Perl and SQL regularly in my career. I don't know ENOUGH
different ways to do the same thing! I say this because I've realized
that different languages do different things much more easily than
others, and ultimately it's about getting the job done.
but in my career life, I saw so much overlapping work done because
different languages, I used to be a web programmer, javascript, xslt,
C#, we programmed so many same functions with different languages.
It's painful, cann't you see it? It's beause we are on the wrong way!

Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Jerry Stuckle

Hal Vaughan wrote:
 
 On Jun 23, 2009, at 9:13 PM, 明覺 wrote:
 ...
 I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, and
 Lisp.  teaseOnly *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based
 languages. ;)/tease
 Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other
 languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their
 advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the
 ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like.
 
 The more I read in this thread, the more I wonder -- does anyone here 
 have a link to a video of William Shatner delivering that famous three 
 word line in a Saturday Night Live sketch from the '70s or '80s?
 
 I mean, seriously, GET A LIFE.
 
 It's just a programming language.
 
 GET A LIFE.
 
 
 Hal
 

http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii137/Alembic-/Videos/?action=viewcurrent=SNL-WilliamShatner-GetALife.flv


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?



On Jun 23, 2009, at 9:51 PM, Dale Harris wrote:


On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 09:28:10PM -0400, Napoleon wrote:


You just don't get it, do you?  There are different programming
languages because there are NEEDS for different programming  
languages.

There will NEVER be one programming language which meets all
requirements.  Just like there are hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches  
and

so on to build things.



Ah, but one is fabeled. Obviously you've never heard this ancient  
saying...


One Language to rule them all, One Language to find them,
One Language to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie.


(just kidding folks. ;)


No he's not.


Hal
(Who had the same thought in his mind on reading the idea of one  
language for all purposes.)



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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Celejar

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:53:14 -0500
Neal Hogan nealho...@gmail.com wrote:

[lots of stuff snipped]

Reminder to everyone: please trim quotes.

Celejar
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Napoleon


Dale Harris wrote:

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 09:28:10PM -0400, Napoleon wrote:

You just don't get it, do you?  There are different programming
languages because there are NEEDS for different programming languages.
There will NEVER be one programming language which meets all
requirements.  Just like there are hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches and
so on to build things.



Ah, but one is fabeled. Obviously you've never heard this ancient saying...

One Language to rule them all, One Language to find them,
One Language to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie.


(just kidding folks. ;)




ROFLMAO!


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?



On Jun 23, 2009, at 10:02 PM, 明覺 wrote:


2009/6/23 Jeff Soules sou...@gmail.com:
I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my  questions  
about
programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions  
as a

debian user.


Right now you are showing that you're a person who asks for advice,
but does not listen to the response.  People value their time and  
will

not take the time to respond to someone like this, whether you're
speaking as a programmer, a Debian user, an artist, or a fisherman.
Don't waste people's time.  Ever.

yes i'm asking for advice, and I'm very happy to get so many good
advices, and I'm trying to form a solution to include all the good
advices, I'm not wasting other's time, we are just discussing and
trying to figure out the best way.


No, we're not figuring out the best way.  All of US are telling you  
that you're off your rocker and on a fool's quest.  You're saying,  
But you're wrong and I'm right.




You talk about how different languages are just different ways to do
the same thing.  Well... okay...  but you're writing to this list in
English.  From your sig and your name you're obviously a native
Chinese speaker.  Aren't English and Chinese just different ways to
say the same thing?  If you don't understand them both well, you
might think so.  But some things are much easier to do in one  
language
versus the other.  飄飄何所似， 天地一沙鷗 -- in English, is it  
'just the same

thing?'  It's not that Chinese is just better, there are plenty of
things that are more natural in English than in Chinese.  Just the
same, if all you see in Perl is wrappers around C functions--if you
think none of them bring new concepts [or clarity or simplicity] to
C/C++ -- then you don't understand Perl.  And you need to.  Without
lots of different ways of thinking about problems, you're like a frog
in a well, saying look how small the sky is!

A very good comparison -- human languages and programming languages.
Then why we must have an official world language - English? What's the
official language in the programming world? If you say you do not need
an official programming language, then you are saying we do not need
English to be the world official language, I believe no one will
agree with you; if you say every programmer should learn many
languages, then you are saying everyone should learn English,
Chinese, French, oh, I believe everyone will hate you so much, I
guess you are also a chinese, you should know how suffering we chinese
have to learn English.


Comparisons hold true on some levels, but few hold true on every  
level.  In this case, you're taking one argument and stretching it  
beyond any boundary of logic or common sense.  Yeah, I could go into  
it more, but why?  You'll just say, But I'm right and you're not.



I value every good concept in every language,


No you don't.  If you did, you'd understand the main message you've  
been told dozens of times.



but please add that good
concept to my familiar language, not force me to learn a new one;


Nobody's forcing you to learn a darn thing.  You don't have to do  
nothing -- except pay taxes and die (and I honestly don't know how  
taxes work in your country).  You make it sound like a chore to learn  
a new language.  For a true programmer it isn't.  Learning a new  
language, for a real and true programmer, is and adventure.  It's a  
chance to approach all problems from yet another perspective.  I  
learned most languages in a few hours or days.  When I first started  
looking at OOP, it took me a while, but once I got it, working with  
other OOP based languages was a snap.  If you feel like you're being  
forced to learn languages, then you're in the wrong field.


But after reading that line, I wonder

Is all this because you have trouble with some languages -- it looks  
like you're essentially trying to go through all this so you don't  
have to learn languages you don't want to learn.


I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth.


or,
I can reference another language so that I can improve my language,
but please do not force me to use a new one.


Nobody is forcing you to learn anything.  You don't want to learn one,  
don't learn it.  Quit the job -- but then when you want a new job,  
don't be surprised if they ask you why you quit that last one!   
Honestly, that you can even talk about being forced to learn a  
language, that you even have that as a concept in your brain, says  
even more about you.  It tells us you don't want to learn something  
new.  It tells us you don't want to explore.  It tells us you see  
programming more as a chore than an art or challenge.  It also says  
that we should have sympathy for whoever hires you as a programmer.



The way computers working
is simple, so there isn't any difficulties to implement a good concept
in one language to another.


Do you have any clue, when you make a statement like that, just how  
much it shows everyone that

Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Andreas Juch

Am Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:13:29 +0800
schrieb 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com:

 Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other
 languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their
 advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the
 ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like.

Sorry for the question, but how old are you? I think I also had similar
ambitions when I was 13...

Andreas


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Cybe R. Wizard

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:51:34 -0400
Dale Harris rod...@gmail.com wrote:

 Ah, but one is fabeled. Obviously you've never heard this ancient
 saying...
 
 One Language to rule them all, One Language to find them,
 One Language to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
 In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie.
 
 
 (just kidding folks. ;)

Sure you are.  One suggestion, though; it should read, ...where /even/
the shadows lie.  It's so much more true-to-life.

Cybe R. Wizard
-- 
It was like a visit by Don Corleone. I expected to find 
a bloody computer monitor in my bed the next day. 
Mark Andreessen of Netscape regarding 
a visit from microsoft.


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Cowley Harris

This guy asked a relatively simple question which I'm paraphrasing
here as can you run Debian without perl or python, the answer is
pretty much no.
He gave his reasons for the question and his opinion on the answers he
was given.  He's also started probably the most interesting thread on
this list for a while.

As I've read it, he's not attacked anyone personally even when
disagreeing with people and yet he is being personally attacked for
his opinions.

Well, here is my opinion, if you feel threatened enough by someone who
disagrees with you, that you must insult them, it's a sign of a weak
logic or a weak mind.  It's the reaction typical of a zealot, fool or
troll and not the response of someone with some useful knowledge to
share.

I don't agree with him that a  one programming language system
would be the right way to do things or that it would lead to a
bright future of our free software world. but I'm not going to insult
him for his belief.  In fact it might be a good thing that he tries
this endeavor.

“Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people
attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore,
depends on unreasonable people.” GB Shaw.

The benefits of multiple languages over a 1 language system (1LS) is
that it gives you the ability to program at the appropriate level of
the problem space. The studies show that the higher level you program
the more instructions you have per line, and yet the  bugs per line
stay about the same.
The studies also show that the amount  of LOC produced by programmers
of the same skill level is about the same, whether they use assembly,
c or java, and yet the amount of instructions per LOC  increase with
level of the language. More productivity in the same time span is a
major advantage.

On a personal note, I think that programmers that use different
languages can communicate in meta-programming terms, a hash-table is
a hash-table whether you call it a hash or a dictionary.  The benefits
of a 1LS would be small in comparison to the benefits of plural
system.

H.


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-23 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 09:13:29AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other
 languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their
 advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the
 ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like.

Paraphrasing from memory of the Wikipedia article on Alan Turing.

Turing was interested in machine intelligence - one of his suggestions 
was that you teach a computer to play chess, another was that you should 
teach a computer to speak English (both, I think, in the article in Mind 
in 1950). He began to write a program to play chess in 1948 but had 
no computer to run it. In 1952 he played a match against his colleague 
where _he_ was the computer running his program. It took half an hour 
per move and he was eventually beaten. The program was apparently 
finally good enough to beat his colleague's wife.

The hope that you'll be able to teach a computer enough to speak English 
now seems incredibly naive but is more than good enough as a goal when 
you're essentially inventing the idea of the computer and its uses and 
have one of the three or four working computers in the world: it's easy to 
be optimistic when you don't know how hard the scope of the problem really 
is.

Learning all the computer languages within a modern Linux distribution 
to force-fit their concepts into one language, retaining their strengths 
(and presumably eliminating their weaknesses/problems as you go) and 
then modifying the gcc compiler appropriately? 

Russell Coker on Planet.debian had a post yesterday or so where he pointed 
to the very wise advice he'd been given, essentially the people who write 
compilers and toolchains are smarter/better programmers 
than you are: if you think you've found a bug in their compiler, its 
almost always in your code.

Alan Turing died in 1954: this discussion is the first and only time 
I've seen your name.

All the best,

AndyC


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Hilco
Wijbengahilco.wijbe...@gmail.com wrote:
2009/6/21 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com:
I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?

(This is in response to various comments/answers you gave, not just
this initial email.)

FYI:
perl: C program
python: C program
(ba)sh: C program
ruby: C program
sed: C program
awk: C program
the list continues...

What about XML, YAML, HTML, javascript, and such? No more browser? No
more internet? :-)
Of course I will use all of them, I even use windows vista everyday
for playing games, that's my user role; for my programmer role, I will
use Xml and html, for they are data files, not programming languages,
I will try to write my own brower in C++, and use a subset of C++ to
be the dhtml programming language instead of javascript.

On a different note, have you realised just how much you need to know
before you know your whole system? Just the Linux kernel is (2.6.29)
is 11 million SLOC. Debian 4.0 was a whopping 283 million SLOC. To
quote some more from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code:

A similar study was later made of Debian Linux version 2.2 (also
known as Potato); this version of Linux was originally released in
August 2000. This study found that Debian Linux 2.2 included over 55
million SLOC, and if developed in a conventional proprietary way would
have required 14,005 person-years and cost $1.9 billion USD to
develop.

Are you going to live that long? Do you have that much money? (If yes
to the latter, could you please send a few million my way?) ;-)
why don't you ask this question to debian or Bill Gates when they just
started their work? Is microsoft built by the one person Bill Gates?
Is bebian developed by the one person Ian?

Please think this through and listen to reason before you waste your life.

Cheers,
Hilco

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:32 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 12:21:22 -0400
Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com wrote:

...

I'm being blunt, but, honestly, I run a business on custom software
I've written and I can do it because I learned from those who knew
more than I did. If I refused to learn from people on this and other
lists, I'd be an idiot and would still be wasting most of my life at
the keyboard. I found one can save days, weeks, months, or even
years, by listening to those with experience. You don't seem to want
to listen to the experience of many.

Learn from other people's errors, you don't have time to make them all
yourself ;-)

Like others said, learn whats the right tool for the job, do the jobs you feel
like and leave the others to the ones who like other jobs better. Don't
forget to live.
Like I like to say, I'm more scared of not living than of dying. I hope you
can
figure out the meaning ...
I also find that messing about in languages I know nothing about tought me
also
about those I do know something about and also tought me what I don't want to
do and what I'm wasting my time on with the wrong tool

That's fine, but don't come crying to us in 3-4 years when you realize
how much time you've wasted with such a capricious fetish.

I'm still claiming that the world would have been a better place if computers
hadn't been invented, or at least if user interface (cli, gui, whatever) has
never been invented, and the more I learn the more I'm convinced on that
matter ;-)

I used to be more of a purist like you but after going through, c, c++, java,
matlab, perl, fortran (yes it's still alive and kicking ...), assembly, basic,
pascal, logo, lisp and I don't know how many others I came to the concultion
that if I can save three weeks programing, let the program run a couple of
days
instead of a couple of hours (assuming it needs to be run once or twice) and
go
out to date my wife, mountain bike, kite surf, watch the sunset or whatever,
I'm much better of and sociaty is not the worst of it.
If I do not change the reality, I will suffer till I'm dying; If I try
to change the reality, maybe i will just suffer 20 years, and rest for
my last 20 years.

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-22 Thread Sebastian Günther

* 明覺 (shi.min...@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]:
 I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
 python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
 reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
 and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
 manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
 thanks
 
 

# apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python)

should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you can 
decide wether you can live without them.

Sebastian

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-22 Thread Sebastian Günther

* 明覺 (shi.min...@gmail.com) [22.06.09 05:33]:
 I'm a junior programmer, and I plan to use only c/c++ as my
 programming languages, and I don't like python or perl, I hope all the
 programs in my own system are written only in c/c++ so that I will be
 able to modify them someday in the future. thanks

Well that is not very broadminded...

And you should, as a programmer, at least have a little knowledge of the 
most common programming languages. And knowledge of *all* programming 
paradigmas, which would also include declarative languages.

BTW: perl and python are not that hard to learn or read, since their 
main purpose was to help sysadmins to get their jobs done. And mostly 
they are not programming gurus...

Sebastian

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-22 Thread thveillon.debian

Sebastian Günther wrote:
 * 明覺 (shi.min...@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]:
 I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
 python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
 reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
 and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
 manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
 thanks


 
 # apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python)
 
 should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you can 
 decide wether you can live without them.
 
 Sebastian
 

But aren't perl or python packages just metapackages acting like
glue for all the others in the section ? I don't know if removing them
will have any effect on the libs already installed.
And doesn't the package configuration system needs python and/or perl
stuff ?

aptitude search ~S~i~s'(perl|python)'  returns packages that look pretty
low-level stuff to me, most of which I have never installed manually but
were dragged in as dependencies.

Looks like a strange idea to me to run a one programming language only
system, it would hint that there's a one fits all language and other
are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess ;-) )

Tom


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-22 Thread Tzafrir Cohen

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
 python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
 reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
 and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
 manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
 thanks

Let's throw some data into this discussion:

LXDE is a rather minimalistic desktop. IceWM is an example of a
resonable (not-so-bloated) window manager.

$ aptitude why lxde perl
i   lxde   Depends xarchiver
i A xarchiver  Depends libpango1.0-0 (= 1.20.3)
i A libpango1.0-0  Depends libpango1.0-common (= 1.20.5-3+lenny1)
i A libpango1.0-common Depends defoma (= 0.11.1)
i A defoma Depends perl (= 5.6.0-16)

$ aptitude why icewm perl
i   icewm   Depends libfontconfig1 (= 2.4.0)
i A libfontconfig1  Depends fontconfig-config (= 2.6.0-3)
i A fontconfig-conf Depends ttf-dejavu | ttf-bitstream-vera |
ttf-freefont | gsf
ig  onts-x11
i A ttf-freefontDepends defoma
i A defoma  Depends perl (= 5.6.0-16)

So on the client side the dependency is basically due to defoma (DEbian
FOnts MAnager).


On the server side:

$ aptitude why xserver-xorg perl
i A xserver-xorg  Dependsxserver-xorg-core (= 2:1.4-3)
i A xserver-xorg-core Dependslibdbus-1-3 (= 1.0.2)
i A libdbus-1-3   Recommends dbus
i A dbus  Dependsadduser
i   adduser   Suggests   perl-modules
i   perl-modules  Dependsperl (= 5.10.0-1)

In this case we don't have a strict dependency. Not even a
recommendation. 'adduser' preffers to have a more complete perl
installation around.


But, well, this is slightly the wrong question (or the right. Depending
on how you think about it). 'perl' and 'perl-modules' include most of
the bloat of the perl package that should not get into the base system.
If we slightly rephrase the question, to satisfy the purists:

$ aptitude why lxde perl-base
i   lxde  Depends lxde-core (= 0.3.2.1+svn20080509-5)
i A lxde-core Depends pcmanfm (= 0.3.9.5)
i A pcmanfm   Depends hal
i A hal   Depends adduser
i   adduser   Depends perl-base (= 5.6.0)

$ aptitude why icewm perl-base
i   icewm Dependslibfontconfig1 (= 2.4.0)
i A libfontconfig1Dependsfontconfig-config (= 2.6.0-3)
i A fontconfig-config Dependsucf (= 0.29)
i A ucf   Dependsdebconf (= 1.5.19)
i   debconf   PreDepends perl-base (= 5.6.1-4)

Or to make things clear:

$ aptitude why xserver-xorg perl-base
i A xserver-xorg Dependsdebconf (= 0.5) | debconf-2.0
i   debconf  PreDepends perl-base (= 5.6.1-4)

Debconf needs perl. And you won't have much of a Debian system without
debconf. I wouldn't try removing that one.

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Tzafrir Cohentzaf...@cohens.org.il wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
 python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
 reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
 and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
 manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
 thanks

 Let's throw some data into this discussion:

 LXDE is a rather minimalistic desktop. IceWM is an example of a
 resonable (not-so-bloated) window manager.

 $ aptitude why lxde perl
 i   lxde   Depends xarchiver
 i A xarchiver  Depends libpango1.0-0 (= 1.20.3)
 i A libpango1.0-0  Depends libpango1.0-common (= 1.20.5-3+lenny1)
 i A libpango1.0-common Depends defoma (= 0.11.1)
 i A defoma Depends perl (= 5.6.0-16)

 $ aptitude why icewm perl
 i   icewm   Depends libfontconfig1 (= 2.4.0)
 i A libfontconfig1  Depends fontconfig-config (= 2.6.0-3)
 i A fontconfig-conf Depends ttf-dejavu | ttf-bitstream-vera |
 ttf-freefont | gsf
 ig  onts-x11
 i A ttf-freefontDepends defoma
 i A defoma  Depends perl (= 5.6.0-16)

 So on the client side the dependency is basically due to defoma (DEbian
 FOnts MAnager).


 On the server side:

 $ aptitude why xserver-xorg perl
 i A xserver-xorg  Dependsxserver-xorg-core (= 2:1.4-3)
 i A xserver-xorg-core Dependslibdbus-1-3 (= 1.0.2)
 i A libdbus-1-3   Recommends dbus
 i A dbus  Dependsadduser
 i   adduser   Suggests   perl-modules
 i   perl-modules  Dependsperl (= 5.10.0-1)

 In this case we don't have a strict dependency. Not even a
 recommendation. 'adduser' preffers to have a more complete perl
 installation around.


 But, well, this is slightly the wrong question (or the right. Depending
 on how you think about it). 'perl' and 'perl-modules' include most of
 the bloat of the perl package that should not get into the base system.
 If we slightly rephrase the question, to satisfy the purists:

 $ aptitude why lxde perl-base
 i   lxde  Depends lxde-core (= 0.3.2.1+svn20080509-5)
 i A lxde-core Depends pcmanfm (= 0.3.9.5)
 i A pcmanfm   Depends hal
 i A hal   Depends adduser
 i   adduser   Depends perl-base (= 5.6.0)

 $ aptitude why icewm perl-base
 i   icewm Dependslibfontconfig1 (= 2.4.0)
 i A libfontconfig1Dependsfontconfig-config (= 2.6.0-3)
 i A fontconfig-config Dependsucf (= 0.29)
 i A ucf   Dependsdebconf (= 1.5.19)
 i   debconf   PreDepends perl-base (= 5.6.1-4)

 Or to make things clear:

 $ aptitude why xserver-xorg perl-base
 i A xserver-xorg Dependsdebconf (= 0.5) | debconf-2.0
 i   debconf  PreDepends perl-base (= 5.6.1-4)

 Debconf needs perl. And you won't have much of a Debian system without
 debconf. I wouldn't try removing that one.

 --
 Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is
 http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's
 tzaf...@cohens.org.il ||  best
 ICQ# 16849754 || friend


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thank you for the perfect analysis! so does it mean debian determines
the use of python and perl? could you help recommend some
distributions that do not need perl or python? thanks

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:11 PM,
thveillon.debianthveillon.deb...@googlemail.com wrote:
Sebastian Günther wrote:
* 明�X (shi.min...@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]:
I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
thanks

# apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python)

should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you can
decide wether you can live without them.

Sebastian

But aren't perl or python packages just metapackages acting like
glue for all the others in the section ? I don't know if removing them
will have any effect on the libs already installed.
And doesn't the package configuration system needs python and/or perl
stuff ?
yes, i hate it so much! if i remove python, the whole gnome
environment are removed; if i remove perl, the whole xorg system is
removed. I don't think it's a good design to make python or perl so
bottom, especially for people who do not like python and perl, like
me.

aptitude search ~S~i~s'(perl|python)' returns packages that look pretty
low-level stuff to me, most of which I have never installed manually but
were dragged in as dependencies.

Looks like a strange idea to me to run a one programming language only
system, it would hint that there's a one fits all language and other
are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess ;-) )
yes, currently, I'm almost a one programming language only people, I
can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should
be optional, not necessory!

Tom

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009/6/22 Sebastian Günther sam...@guenther-roetgen.de:
 * 明覺 (shi.min...@gmail.com) [22.06.09 05:33]:
 I'm a junior programmer, and I plan to use only c/c++ as my
 programming languages, and I don't like python or perl, I hope all the
 programs in my own system are written only in c/c++ so that I will be
 able to modify them someday in the future. thanks

 Well that is not very broadminded...

 And you should, as a programmer, at least have a little knowledge of the
 most common programming languages. And knowledge of *all* programming
 paradigmas, which would also include declarative languages.

 BTW: perl and python are not that hard to learn or read, since their
 main purpose was to help sysadmins to get their jobs done. And mostly
 they are not programming gurus...
yes, they are not hard to learn, but if to learn it, it's a waste of
time for me! they just make wrappers for C libraries, I do not like
that!

 Sebastian

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-22 Thread Tzafrir Cohen

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 05:40:20PM +0800, 明覺 wrote:

 So does it mean debian determines the use of python and perl? 

Python? Python is not a dependency. perl-base is. perl is, to a lesser
extent.

 could you help recommend some distributions that do not need perl or 
 python? thanks

What's your problem with using perl? This is not a rethorical question.
Do you have an issue of performance? Disk space? Memory usage? Can you
provide some more details about your application?

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-22 Thread Tzafrir Cohen

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 05:45:46PM +0800, 明覺 wrote:

 yes, currently, I'm almost a one programming language only people, I
 can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should
 be optional, not necessory!

Such an attitude won't get you very far in a Linux ecosphere.

If you're concerened about integration, you'll certainly have to know
shell scripting (and a bit of awk, sed and alike). And unless your 
system is rather minimal, using a dynamic language such as perl or 
python is a huge time saver.

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?