Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Kevin Fenzi writes: Thanks for the conversation and a lot of useful information. I think it's mostly moved to "users", which is a channel which I think is more suited to forum style. So I'll go back to lurking, after one comment. > Yep. Perhaps we could (re)direct people to file issues with upstreams so > their problems are at least tracked. These should be triaged by somebody who understands Mailman, as many of the issues that have been mentioned are specific to the Fedora instance. Most prominent is the closure of the web form, with no explicit redirection to social auth or email signup. No need to be massively careful about it, we understand that users find it difficult to identify the right venue to report mail issues in general and list issues in particular. But it's very frustrating for them to get bounced back and forth. Steve ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 19/10/18 07:03 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 6:45 AM Neal Gompa wrote: On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:16 AM Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > Again, I believe some are trying to do an apples to apples comparison with Discourse and mailing list technologies. Discourse was build from the ground up with the goal of fostering communication and collaboration. Hyperkitty is a bolt on HTML to mailing list archives. It's good for what it is, but it isn't Discourse - and usage numbers tend to bear that out. > That's an unfair characterization. HyperKitty was designed from the ground up with that goal in mind too. The _sole_ difference is the backend approach. Discourse uses a database system while HyperKitty uses a mail list engine. if you think the "sole" difference between HyperKitty and Discourse is the backend approach you're not looking very hard. It's quite apparent just by looking at it. If yperKitty's design goals are the exact same as Discourse they hid it pretty well in their online documentation. The one benefit that Discourse might offer to me is that Gerald's replies might use quoting properly :-P (Yes, I know this is a problem with the text/plain part generated by Gmail's web UI, which can be worked around by just adding a blank line between the quoted text and the reply). ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 06:33:56PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On 10/21/18 6:12 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > Kevin Fenzi writes: > > > > > Huh. The only person I know of from Fedora at least that was > > > working on it was abompard. While he's working on other things now, > > > as far as I know he's still working on mailman3/hyperkitty as time > > > permits. > > > > pingu and abadger also contributed. Don't know their exact > > affiliations or what they're doing for Fedora's installation, but all > > three have stopped substantial upstream contribution for a couple > > Toshio (abadger) works on ansible now. Pierre (pingou) is still in the > Fedora engineering group but is focused on pagure and ci work. I only > see 2 commits ever from Toshio and all of pingou's commits were at the > very start of the project in 2012. Toshio and I implemented the early version of HyperKitty based on Máirín's designs at a time I was still a part-time contributor. Aurélien has been hired by RH a few months after HK took off and basically he took over from Toshio and I. Since then I did join RH and the Fedora engineering group but since we already had Aurélien working on HK, I kept hanging around a little but focused on other projects. This explains the profile of contributions you're seeing from the three of us :) Pierre signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 15:05, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > > I'm not able to parse this. This very thread is more information that > > may get us to move it up in priority. Can you rephrase? > > I don't know what "Fedora management" values, or what is needed by the > people who are doing the work that devel is designed for (coordinating > packages, troubleshooting dependencies, etc). However, there are > forums related to Fedora that people have put up (and IIUC fedoraforum > is an experiment set up by the Fedora project itself). That means Fedora Forum is from a long time ago when Fedora was just starting up. At that time things were being set up in a more confederated method where teams would run the products they wanted. The discussions of mailing lists vs web-something have gone on since 2004 at least. And they branch out into 'you should use slack!', 'you should use irc', 'telegram!', 'USEnet!' 'you all are wrong. the Plato system had a superior method', etc etc etc > there is some dissatisfaction. But turning that into requirements, or > justifying using admin resources, etc to upgrade requires more > knowledge about the community than I have. > > I haven't found this thread very informative, to be honest. The email > advocates say "it works, could be better" (which given the traffic > levels I'd have to say is true) which isn't very specific about *what* Which pretty sums up every one of these conversations over the last 15 years. I don't think either side really can formulate things any more than a left handed person can say why they are left handed versus right handed.. one method works better for their brain and the other doesn't. Does it work perfectly? No but the other method is like using a tool which always feels wrong. You might be able to learn to use it but it always itches. Trying to explain it beyond that comes down to things like 'well it must be superior because I work better on it!' versus 'well my brain likes to categorize things in this visual method and your brain uses that method.' And then a bunch of people try to come up with a tool which works for everyone but find out that the larger the net, the bigger the holes. Roll around 2-3 years and we will see another version. -- Stephen J Smoogen. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/22/18 11:14 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Kevin Fenzi writes: > > On 10/21/18 6:12 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > > > years now. abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail > > > but that's about it. > > > > Well, he has 980 commits, much more than anyone else. > > Sure, but in the last couple of years there are only a couple of dozen > commits from all committers. True. ;( > > We intend to keep up with upstream, but we haven't dropped other > > items to do so urgently. > > OK, you're right: it's not urgent; HyperKitty is at 1.2.0a1 in our > repo, 1.1.5 is dated October 17 last year, but little has changed and > no new features in the UI. Fedora's Postorius is 1.1.2 (upstream > 1.2.3), but I doubt that many of the issues I have with Fedora's > Postorius are fixed upstream, they're more local installation stuff. > There are many more upstream changes in Postorius vs. HyperKitty, but > I didn't notice any missing Postorius functionality (except web form > signups, and that's deliberate). > > Máirín will probably have results in a couple months but we are > unlikely to release again until PyCon (in May, I think). Yeah, but staying closer to upstream is still valuable, so people who commit fixes don't have to wait ages to see them in production. Another thing I'd like to do at some point, and perhaps we should just do this soon is move our instance to openshift. That would allow for a lot faster deployment schedule and a lot more flexability about what container(s) we use for things as well as scaling, etc. But again thats some work we need to prioritize and get people working on. > > > > I don't know the reasons, but somebody at Fedora does: they're the > > > same reasons that fedoraforum.org exists. > > > > I'm not able to parse this. This very thread is more information that > > may get us to move it up in priority. Can you rephrase? > > I don't know what "Fedora management" values, or what is needed by the > people who are doing the work that devel is designed for (coordinating > packages, troubleshooting dependencies, etc). However, there are > forums related to Fedora that people have put up (and IIUC fedoraforum > is an experiment set up by the Fedora project itself). That means > there is some dissatisfaction. But turning that into requirements, or > justifying using admin resources, etc to upgrade requires more > knowledge about the community than I have. Fedoraforum is not now, nor has it ever been run by the Fedora project. It's always been a 3rd party site that runs how they like. I used to be a moderator there, but I've not had time to even login there in ages. (perhaps proving that polling sites always ends up slipping down your list until you no longer remember to do it). > I haven't found this thread very informative, to be honest. The email > advocates say "it works, could be better" (which given the traffic > levels I'd have to say is true) which isn't very specific about *what* > works and how it works to enhance productivity, while the forum > advocates are not at all precise about how a forum is supposed to > improve *productivity* of this list. They're mostly focused on > certain issues, such as ease of entry that I agree are important for a > user support forum, but I don't think they really help the devel > workers (that's my personal opinion, not anything I can claim > expertise on). Yep. Perhaps we could (re)direct people to file issues with upstreams so their problems are at least tracked. > > Sure. I appreciate your input though! > > Try and stop me! :-) > > Seriously, as I said before, Fedora is currently one of our biggest > publicly accessible Mailman 3 installations. We want the best for you > first, but if "the best for Fedora" can be Mailman 3, we want it to > shine! Thanks! kevin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 2:22 PM Kevin Fenzi wrote: > > On 10/22/18 9:49 AM, Neal Gompa wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:40 PM Kevin Fenzi wrote: > >> > >> On 10/22/18 7:35 AM, Aurelien Bompard wrote: > abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail > but that's about it. > >>> > >>> I agree that my activity on HyperKitty has slowed down a lot these last > >>> years, because I got involved with other projects too. > >>> > No, it can't, can it. Fedora is not keeping up with upstream, which > means that "anyone who wants to" isn't upgrading on the Fedora system. > >>> > >>> I'm planning to upgrade but I'm currently stuck with the fact that > >>> Mailman Core upped it's dependency on Python 3.5+, and only Python 3.4 is > >>> easily accessible in EPEL. So we need to come up with a plan to rebuild > >>> all the dependency packages for both Python 3.4 and 3.6, which was part > >>> of the initial python lib spec file template in EPEL, but never got > >>> really implemented by python lib packagers. (see > >>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/python-de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/WIDTOW7HUOJI3QO4WNCG2DTTF5B3CLBE/) > >> > >> EPEL folks are trying to plan a python3 work day with whoever we can get > >> from the python sig soon, where we try and move as much of the stack as > >> we can to python36. That should very much help this. > >> > > > > Would it be too difficult to just move to Fedora for the Mailman + > > HyperKitty + Postorius system? > > Well, it would still be some work, just different. I know mailman3 is > under review, we would want that to finish up, then any other packages > we need, then fixing up any config for fedora vs rhel, etc. > > Might be easier, not sure. > I'm doing the review for mailman3, I'm just waiting on Aurelien to respond in it. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Kevin Fenzi writes: > On 10/21/18 6:12 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > years now. abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail > > but that's about it. > > Well, he has 980 commits, much more than anyone else. Sure, but in the last couple of years there are only a couple of dozen commits from all committers. > We intend to keep up with upstream, but we haven't dropped other > items to do so urgently. OK, you're right: it's not urgent; HyperKitty is at 1.2.0a1 in our repo, 1.1.5 is dated October 17 last year, but little has changed and no new features in the UI. Fedora's Postorius is 1.1.2 (upstream 1.2.3), but I doubt that many of the issues I have with Fedora's Postorius are fixed upstream, they're more local installation stuff. There are many more upstream changes in Postorius vs. HyperKitty, but I didn't notice any missing Postorius functionality (except web form signups, and that's deliberate). Máirín will probably have results in a couple months but we are unlikely to release again until PyCon (in May, I think). > > I don't know the reasons, but somebody at Fedora does: they're the > > same reasons that fedoraforum.org exists. > > I'm not able to parse this. This very thread is more information that > may get us to move it up in priority. Can you rephrase? I don't know what "Fedora management" values, or what is needed by the people who are doing the work that devel is designed for (coordinating packages, troubleshooting dependencies, etc). However, there are forums related to Fedora that people have put up (and IIUC fedoraforum is an experiment set up by the Fedora project itself). That means there is some dissatisfaction. But turning that into requirements, or justifying using admin resources, etc to upgrade requires more knowledge about the community than I have. I haven't found this thread very informative, to be honest. The email advocates say "it works, could be better" (which given the traffic levels I'd have to say is true) which isn't very specific about *what* works and how it works to enhance productivity, while the forum advocates are not at all precise about how a forum is supposed to improve *productivity* of this list. They're mostly focused on certain issues, such as ease of entry that I agree are important for a user support forum, but I don't think they really help the devel workers (that's my personal opinion, not anything I can claim expertise on). > Sure. I appreciate your input though! Try and stop me! :-) Seriously, as I said before, Fedora is currently one of our biggest publicly accessible Mailman 3 installations. We want the best for you first, but if "the best for Fedora" can be Mailman 3, we want it to shine! Steve ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/22/18 9:49 AM, Neal Gompa wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:40 PM Kevin Fenzi wrote: >> >> On 10/22/18 7:35 AM, Aurelien Bompard wrote: abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail but that's about it. >>> >>> I agree that my activity on HyperKitty has slowed down a lot these last >>> years, because I got involved with other projects too. >>> No, it can't, can it. Fedora is not keeping up with upstream, which means that "anyone who wants to" isn't upgrading on the Fedora system. >>> >>> I'm planning to upgrade but I'm currently stuck with the fact that Mailman >>> Core upped it's dependency on Python 3.5+, and only Python 3.4 is easily >>> accessible in EPEL. So we need to come up with a plan to rebuild all the >>> dependency packages for both Python 3.4 and 3.6, which was part of the >>> initial python lib spec file template in EPEL, but never got really >>> implemented by python lib packagers. (see >>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/python-de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/WIDTOW7HUOJI3QO4WNCG2DTTF5B3CLBE/) >> >> EPEL folks are trying to plan a python3 work day with whoever we can get >> from the python sig soon, where we try and move as much of the stack as >> we can to python36. That should very much help this. >> > > Would it be too difficult to just move to Fedora for the Mailman + > HyperKitty + Postorius system? Well, it would still be some work, just different. I know mailman3 is under review, we would want that to finish up, then any other packages we need, then fixing up any config for fedora vs rhel, etc. Might be easier, not sure. kevin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:40 PM Kevin Fenzi wrote: > > On 10/22/18 7:35 AM, Aurelien Bompard wrote: > >> abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail > >> but that's about it. > > > > I agree that my activity on HyperKitty has slowed down a lot these last > > years, because I got involved with other projects too. > > > >> No, it can't, can it. Fedora is not keeping up with upstream, which > >> means that "anyone who wants to" isn't upgrading on the Fedora system. > > > > I'm planning to upgrade but I'm currently stuck with the fact that Mailman > > Core upped it's dependency on Python 3.5+, and only Python 3.4 is easily > > accessible in EPEL. So we need to come up with a plan to rebuild all the > > dependency packages for both Python 3.4 and 3.6, which was part of the > > initial python lib spec file template in EPEL, but never got really > > implemented by python lib packagers. (see > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/python-de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/WIDTOW7HUOJI3QO4WNCG2DTTF5B3CLBE/) > > EPEL folks are trying to plan a python3 work day with whoever we can get > from the python sig soon, where we try and move as much of the stack as > we can to python36. That should very much help this. > Would it be too difficult to just move to Fedora for the Mailman + HyperKitty + Postorius system? -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/22/18 7:35 AM, Aurelien Bompard wrote: >> abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail >> but that's about it. > > I agree that my activity on HyperKitty has slowed down a lot these last > years, because I got involved with other projects too. > >> No, it can't, can it. Fedora is not keeping up with upstream, which >> means that "anyone who wants to" isn't upgrading on the Fedora system. > > I'm planning to upgrade but I'm currently stuck with the fact that Mailman > Core upped it's dependency on Python 3.5+, and only Python 3.4 is easily > accessible in EPEL. So we need to come up with a plan to rebuild all the > dependency packages for both Python 3.4 and 3.6, which was part of the > initial python lib spec file template in EPEL, but never got really > implemented by python lib packagers. (see > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/python-de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/WIDTOW7HUOJI3QO4WNCG2DTTF5B3CLBE/) EPEL folks are trying to plan a python3 work day with whoever we can get from the python sig soon, where we try and move as much of the stack as we can to python36. That should very much help this. > Or run the lists on Fedora instead of CentOS. Or install in a venv instead of > RPMs. All these solutions come with advandages and tradeoffs. > > But the plan is definitely to upgrade, once we have a solution to this issue. Yep. kevin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
> abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail > but that's about it. I agree that my activity on HyperKitty has slowed down a lot these last years, because I got involved with other projects too. > No, it can't, can it. Fedora is not keeping up with upstream, which > means that "anyone who wants to" isn't upgrading on the Fedora system. I'm planning to upgrade but I'm currently stuck with the fact that Mailman Core upped it's dependency on Python 3.5+, and only Python 3.4 is easily accessible in EPEL. So we need to come up with a plan to rebuild all the dependency packages for both Python 3.4 and 3.6, which was part of the initial python lib spec file template in EPEL, but never got really implemented by python lib packagers. (see https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/python-de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/WIDTOW7HUOJI3QO4WNCG2DTTF5B3CLBE/) Or run the lists on Fedora instead of CentOS. Or install in a venv instead of RPMs. All these solutions come with advandages and tradeoffs. But the plan is definitely to upgrade, once we have a solution to this issue. Aurélien ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 3:05 AM Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Required disclosure: Mailman dev, and my sympathies are with the list > advocates for this channel both for that reason, and for more > objective ones. I don't really argue against a move to Discourse > here, but I do know a bit about the problem space, and I'd like to > discuss *some* aspects here. I expect it's clear which I prefer, but > there are a lot of arguments "for" that I don't deal with. > > Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski writes: > > Gerald B. Cox writes: > > > > Regardless, as I mentioned above, if they have a bug, then it > > > should be reported for them to address. > > > > I wouldn't call it a bug, just bad UX for a minority(?) target > > audience. > > I'm pretty sure the Discourse developers would concede that bad UX for > email users is undesirable. I'm *not* sure they would concede that > it's bad UX. We know how to render HTML to plain text, to RTF, and so > on; Discourse deliberately chose not to do so, but rather chose a > format of their own or perhaps some existing format (this is the first > I've heard of BBcode, so I can't judge). > > Thus, I doubt that reporting an issue against Discourse's email > functionality would get action any time soon from the developers, and > might get a lot of pushback. > Thanks very much for your detailed reply. You summed it up pretty well. As far as the mailing list issue for some email clients I did find this over on the Discourse support forum: https://meta.discourse.org/t/plaintext-and-or-raw-emails-for-mailing-list-mode/74267 Again, I'm far from being an email expert... I'm just a user of it - but people who do have the knowledge might want to take a look and see if this discussion reflects some of their concerns and possibly participate. I don't know if the situation could or could not be improved... but it doesn't hurt to ask. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/21/18 6:12 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Kevin Fenzi writes: > > > Huh. The only person I know of from Fedora at least that was > > working on it was abompard. While he's working on other things now, > > as far as I know he's still working on mailman3/hyperkitty as time > > permits. > > pingu and abadger also contributed. Don't know their exact > affiliations or what they're doing for Fedora's installation, but all > three have stopped substantial upstream contribution for a couple Toshio (abadger) works on ansible now. Pierre (pingou) is still in the Fedora engineering group but is focused on pagure and ci work. I only see 2 commits ever from Toshio and all of pingou's commits were at the very start of the project in 2012. > years now. abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail > but that's about it. Well, he has 980 commits, much more than anyone else. > abadger we still hang with at PyCons, but he > wasn't involved in the later development, and would have to put a lot > of effort in to get up to speed. As you say "it could be anyone who > wants to", so we're not going to ask any of them to do more than they > want to at any given time. They're not core any more. > > > > but *somebody* is going to have to commit to better care and > > > feeding of the channel, whatever software is supporting it. > > > > Sure, but it could be anyone who wants to fix those things. > > No, it can't, can it. Fedora is not keeping up with upstream, which > means that "anyone who wants to" isn't upgrading on the Fedora system. > And that's because they'd need to get permission or effort out of the > operators, and apparently that's scarce. The people who manage the > machines have to make this commitment, or it goes nowhere. We intend to keep up with upstream, but we haven't dropped other items to do so urgently. Unless there is some decision to move to something else, we definitely plan to catch back up to upstream when we can. ...snip... > > We have a ton of things going on, so we just had this as low > > priority currently. If it needs to be moved up higher the reasons > > for that would be great to know/discuss. > > I don't know the reasons, but somebody at Fedora does: they're the > same reasons that fedoraforum.org exists. I'm not able to parse this. This very thread is more information that may get us to move it up in priority. Can you rephrase? > > While I know he's got many other things on his plate, I thought > > Aurelien was still doing upstream work and helping folks. CCing him > > on this, I could be mistaken. > > He's got a spate of commits every summer. But I think that abompard, > as well as pingu and abadger, are a moot point here: they focused on > core functions and scalability. Máirín is the author of the UI layer > and has offered to work on these UX issues. I'm confident that she'll > produce results for us! The question is will they get used by Fedora? Sure, if they go in upstream they will be used by us when we update. > Much as I detest forums personally, I consider this an open question > for Fedora. The "try it, you'll like it" advocacy from forum > proponents worries me, but Fedora is not my thing, Mailman is. You > all have to decide. Sure. I appreciate your input though! kevin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Kevin Fenzi writes: > Huh. The only person I know of from Fedora at least that was > working on it was abompard. While he's working on other things now, > as far as I know he's still working on mailman3/hyperkitty as time > permits. pingu and abadger also contributed. Don't know their exact affiliations or what they're doing for Fedora's installation, but all three have stopped substantial upstream contribution for a couple years now. abompard has a few commits, he and pingu still answer mail but that's about it. abadger we still hang with at PyCons, but he wasn't involved in the later development, and would have to put a lot of effort in to get up to speed. As you say "it could be anyone who wants to", so we're not going to ask any of them to do more than they want to at any given time. They're not core any more. > > but *somebody* is going to have to commit to better care and > > feeding of the channel, whatever software is supporting it. > > Sure, but it could be anyone who wants to fix those things. No, it can't, can it. Fedora is not keeping up with upstream, which means that "anyone who wants to" isn't upgrading on the Fedora system. And that's because they'd need to get permission or effort out of the operators, and apparently that's scarce. The people who manage the machines have to make this commitment, or it goes nowhere. > By "really done" I didn't mean that the software was bug free and > implemented 100% of it's intended uses. I just meant that they want > to ship a usable product, of course there are still bugs or things > that in hindshight would have been good to fix before release. I accept your definition, but I've never seen "really done" used to mean just "usable" before. ;-) > Sure, and I don't know of anyone who said it was your > responsibility. I didn't say anybody said that; I was pointing out that we are ready to help by accepting and maintaining bugfixes and improvements done by Fedora workers (as before), and to a limited extent to use our own resources to work on bug reports and RFEs. We have a proven record of doing exactly that. Discourse, OTOH, is an unknown quantity in that respect to me, and some of the things that I consider bugs in Discourse (eg, sending BBcode in text/plain parts) appear to be deliberate choices, so I would not be optimistic about getting some of the changes Fedora will want through quickly. > We have a ton of things going on, so we just had this as low > priority currently. If it needs to be moved up higher the reasons > for that would be great to know/discuss. I don't know the reasons, but somebody at Fedora does: they're the same reasons that fedoraforum.org exists. > While I know he's got many other things on his plate, I thought > Aurelien was still doing upstream work and helping folks. CCing him > on this, I could be mistaken. He's got a spate of commits every summer. But I think that abompard, as well as pingu and abadger, are a moot point here: they focused on core functions and scalability. Máirín is the author of the UI layer and has offered to work on these UX issues. I'm confident that she'll produce results for us! The question is will they get used by Fedora? Much as I detest forums personally, I consider this an open question for Fedora. The "try it, you'll like it" advocacy from forum proponents worries me, but Fedora is not my thing, Mailman is. You all have to decide. I will say I've seen this happen in several communities now (Python, Emacs). The communities seem to scale past the capacity of the communication channels. But to me (and the economics of information is what I do for a living), I don't think it's a problem with the channels, it's a PEBKAC. The *people* at the terminals don't have the bandwidth, and they're desperately searching for a way to reduce the time investment. But in my experience, they don't reallocate from fighting with email to more fruitful conversations on the channel (although they may be more polite with more moderation). Instead, they reduce engagement all around. And that's what I don't like about forums: in my experience, they undermine the productivity of the channel at the same time as they increase collegiality. YMMV, of course, but I evidently have a lot of company in this perception. :-( Steve ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/20/18 9:09 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Kevin Fenzi writes: > > On 10/19/18 6:43 AM, Neal Gompa wrote: > > > > You know why the usage numbers bear that out? Because the upgrade to > > > HyperKitty was mishandled and delayed over and over. We were screwed > > > over by the fact that our infrastructure doesn't run on Fedora, so > > > that made it harder to get it working. The initial deployment was very > > > slow and unoptimized. Bugs in the UI remained unfixed in Fedora's > > > installation even though upstream fixed them. I would not be surprised > > > if upstream ignores us because we don't seem to be upgrading. > > > > Huh, you do realize that things take as long as they take, and there's > > no magic wand for 'it's magically done'. mailman3 was a massive > > undertaking with a very small group of developers, many of whom were > > wanting things to be really done before releasing them. > > Yeah, as a core Mailman developer I was really disappointed when the > whole crew of Fedora/RH-supported developers just disappeared without > leaving behind successors. I understand why that happens, but I wish > I'd known they were able to participate only as long as they were > assigned to it. Huh. The only person I know of from Fedora at least that was working on it was abompard. While he's working on other things now, as far as I know he's still working on mailman3/hyperkitty as time permits. > Unfortunately, it's clear from the current > installation supporting this list that no, they didn't get things > "really done", or at least they were restricted to their direct > relationship with HyperKitty -- in Fedora Postorius, even the > explanatory blurbs in the user config screens are frequently > incomplete (eg, lack information about current, default, and inherited > values) and at least one is outright confusing (the semantics of the > associated variable are the reverse of the option name). Again, I > understand why such things happen, but *somebody* is going to have to > commit to better care and feeding of the channel, whatever software is > supporting it. Sure, but it could be anyone who wants to fix those things. By "really done" I didn't mean that the software was bug free and implemented 100% of it's intended uses. I just meant that they want to ship a usable product, of course there are still bugs or things that in hindshight would have been good to fix before release. > We at Mailman are very happy to help. We're also a small crew of > part-timers, so that's going to be limited, but at least we're aware > that Fedora's is one of the most heavily-used Mailman 3 installations, > so we have a strong interest in it working well! Máirín's mail to our > dev list got immediate and enthusiastic reaction. But we can't help > if you have no support for upgrading to upstream current release; > that's not our job (unless paid, and I'm not even sure that would > break our developers loose from other responsibilities and core work). Sure, and I don't know of anyone who said it was your responsibility. We have a ton of things going on, so we just had this as low priority currently. If it needs to be moved up higher the reasons for that would be great to know/discuss. > I'm not sure you can count on such support from Discourse, but I have > said more about that elsewhere in the thread, so I won't belabor it here. > > > You can always ask why we aren't upgrading. In this case it's because we > > are moving stuff to python36 from 34. If these fixes are urgent let us > > know and we can re-evaluate and try and get things faster. I was under > > the impression that the fixes were pretty minor. > > HyperKitty is a fairly complex piece of software. I never did make > head or tail of it (most of my time is devoted to core Mailman, > especially email security such as DMARC and crypto), and there's > nobody associated with the Mailman project to teach me about it > anymore. To me it's not surprising that the only things people are > willing to touch are minor. And even the original developers are > unlikely to be familiar with the current state of upstream, as > upstream has changes, some significant I think. While I know he's got many other things on his plate, I thought Aurelien was still doing upstream work and helping folks. CCing him on this, I could be mistaken. kevin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Dan Book writes: > It is not a format of their own, but it's not appropriate for > plaintext, so it sounds like a bug to me. But that's exactly my point. *We* think it's a bug, but *they* chose it deliberately. Undoubtedly people have tools expecting it, etc. I've been on both sides of that proposition, and the maintainers bat about .900. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, 2018-10-16 at 07:12 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:21 AM Matthew Miller < > mat...@fedoraproject.org> wrote: > ... > > That's why the general trend is *away* from email. > > > > The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in > this way, > > and > https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html > > is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who > might have > > some ... trepidation. > > > > I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's > honestly worth > > considering if a different approach will be more effective. > > Before the daggers come out please take some time to checkout > Fedora Discourse > https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ and read the Foreman community > link above. I really hope not. Discourse web interface is bloated and painful to work with. > As I had previously mentioned, Discourse allows for RSS feeds and > email notifications. It also has a mailing list mode. > > It really is a much better solution. It isn't, even in mailing mode discourse sends HTML messages which makes email responses almost impossible and force you to use the bloated web interface. -- David ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Chris Adams wrote: > So, my opinion on email vs. web forum is that it is comes down to > freedom vs. lock-in. Right. What does migration out of Discourse look like? -- Chris Murphy ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
So, my opinion on email vs. web forum is that it is comes down to freedom vs. lock-in. With mailing lists (and Usenet), messages are distributed in a more-or-less well-defined format, and users are able to choose clients, filtering, etc. to suit their use patterns. Sometimes people do novel things that help them handle volume, find and track topics they are interested in, etc. With a web forum, users are limited to consuming content in the way the forum developer created, as chosen to be applied by the system managers. Rarely do users have any control over how they access the content, and they still only can control it in the way the developers thought of, implemented, tested, and continue to support. I've used web forums where a function I used regularly went away with an upgrade because the developers didn't think enough people used them and didn't want to support them anymore. Now, that freedom to do as you please has kind of fallen by the wayside on the Internet in general; personal blogs went to hosted blogs (with more uniform interfaces) and then on to mass-hosted social media (with an interface decided entirely by the company running it). So maybe I'm just old-fashioned that way and not enough other people care. I'll admit up front that I haven't checked out Discourse yet. However, I haven't seen before anything that handles the way I consume email, especially mailing lists. I'll keep selected messages of a thread around for later reference, flag messages so they'll be highlighted when I open a folder in the future, filter out certain keywords or posters on rare occasions, and more - and that's just off the top of my head. Also, I follow a bunch of different mailing lists. If they all were web forums, I'd have a bunch of different interfaces to deal with, sites to visit, functionality to learn, etc., instead of my single mail client that I can tweak to my personal use patterns and can bring it all together. -- Chris Adams ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:09 AM Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski writes: > > Gerald B. Cox writes: > > > > Regardless, as I mentioned above, if they have a bug, then it > > > should be reported for them to address. > > > > I wouldn't call it a bug, just bad UX for a minority(?) target > > audience. > > I'm pretty sure the Discourse developers would concede that bad UX for > email users is undesirable. I'm *not* sure they would concede that > it's bad UX. We know how to render HTML to plain text, to RTF, and so > on; Discourse deliberately chose not to do so, but rather chose a > format of their own or perhaps some existing format (this is the first > I've heard of BBcode, so I can't judge). > It is not a format of their own, but it's not appropriate for plaintext, so it sounds like a bug to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBCode -Dan ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
stan writes: > So, you are really gung-ho for Discourse. IMO, that's not nasty, but it wasn't necessary and could be taken badly in context. Just, "as a proponent, I'd like to ask you" is good when things are getting heated. Your questions are important[1], and I'd like to gloss them: > What is your personal experience of using it on a project, before > and after? It would be helpful to specify the project. It's also really important to be specific about what was merely comfortable, and what directly contributed to solving problems of developing the project's software. > Did you actually see more engagement? And by whom? Developers? Users with requirements? Randos who engaged in controversy but in the end contributed neither code nor to refining requirements, specifications, or design? Did you see *less* engagement (especially of the rando type)? > Did the process of development run smoother than it had before? And if so, what aspects of the software contributed to smoothness, and how? Which parts of the process (requirements, specification, design, coding, testing, documentation) benefited specifically? Were there any aspects that were less smooth? > Did new contributors join the project you were working on? > Did experienced contributors keep contributing? > Did it help build community spirit? How did "channel culture" change? Were people more or less polite? Were experienced participants more or less likely to help on-boarding newcomers? Mentor new contributors? > Did it make *your* life easier? And for others? How might these things generalize to this list? Steve GNU Mailman Project Footnotes: [1] To Fedora in deciding to move or not, but also to Mailman to learn requirements to improve our product. "required disclosure" ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Kevin Fenzi writes: > On 10/19/18 6:43 AM, Neal Gompa wrote: > > You know why the usage numbers bear that out? Because the upgrade to > > HyperKitty was mishandled and delayed over and over. We were screwed > > over by the fact that our infrastructure doesn't run on Fedora, so > > that made it harder to get it working. The initial deployment was very > > slow and unoptimized. Bugs in the UI remained unfixed in Fedora's > > installation even though upstream fixed them. I would not be surprised > > if upstream ignores us because we don't seem to be upgrading. > > Huh, you do realize that things take as long as they take, and there's > no magic wand for 'it's magically done'. mailman3 was a massive > undertaking with a very small group of developers, many of whom were > wanting things to be really done before releasing them. Yeah, as a core Mailman developer I was really disappointed when the whole crew of Fedora/RH-supported developers just disappeared without leaving behind successors. I understand why that happens, but I wish I'd known they were able to participate only as long as they were assigned to it. Unfortunately, it's clear from the current installation supporting this list that no, they didn't get things "really done", or at least they were restricted to their direct relationship with HyperKitty -- in Fedora Postorius, even the explanatory blurbs in the user config screens are frequently incomplete (eg, lack information about current, default, and inherited values) and at least one is outright confusing (the semantics of the associated variable are the reverse of the option name). Again, I understand why such things happen, but *somebody* is going to have to commit to better care and feeding of the channel, whatever software is supporting it. We at Mailman are very happy to help. We're also a small crew of part-timers, so that's going to be limited, but at least we're aware that Fedora's is one of the most heavily-used Mailman 3 installations, so we have a strong interest in it working well! Máirín's mail to our dev list got immediate and enthusiastic reaction. But we can't help if you have no support for upgrading to upstream current release; that's not our job (unless paid, and I'm not even sure that would break our developers loose from other responsibilities and core work). I'm not sure you can count on such support from Discourse, but I have said more about that elsewhere in the thread, so I won't belabor it here. > You can always ask why we aren't upgrading. In this case it's because we > are moving stuff to python36 from 34. If these fixes are urgent let us > know and we can re-evaluate and try and get things faster. I was under > the impression that the fixes were pretty minor. HyperKitty is a fairly complex piece of software. I never did make head or tail of it (most of my time is devoted to core Mailman, especially email security such as DMARC and crypto), and there's nobody associated with the Mailman project to teach me about it anymore. To me it's not surprising that the only things people are willing to touch are minor. And even the original developers are unlikely to be familiar with the current state of upstream, as upstream has changes, some significant I think. Steve ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 18:30 Neal Gompa wrote: > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 12:00 PM Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 8:31 AM Chris Adams wrote: > >> > >> Once upon a time, R P Herrold said: > >> > This seems very tone deaf and lacking in introspection, Matt > >> > > >> > perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this > >> > thread with > >> > >> Matt didn't choose that - that subject was set by Gerald B. Cox. > >> > > As I previously mentioned with all the top-posting, excerpts and > hyperbole interjected by others people > > get lost and run with mis-quotes - perhaps Discourse could help with > that. ;-) > > > > Software is a tool for me. I don't get emotionally attached to it - as > some people apparently are. It's a bit telling that > > many people seem to be afraid that Discourse will be a success. > > > > I'm more afraid that it'll be a success with casualties. In other > words, it'll be a failure but not look like one at a glance. Driving > people away and making it harder to keep track of topics of import is > going to necessarily constrain how much people are able and willing to > do. It doesn't get simpler than that. And I have *not* seen a > Discourse instance be successful in that with large teams, much less > large groups like the development groups within Fedora. > Actually, Rust ecosystem is using discourse quite well. Both for development discussions and for user discussions. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Required disclosure: Mailman dev, and my sympathies are with the list advocates for this channel both for that reason, and for more objective ones. I don't really argue against a move to Discourse here, but I do know a bit about the problem space, and I'd like to discuss *some* aspects here. I expect it's clear which I prefer, but there are a lot of arguments "for" that I don't deal with. Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski writes: > Gerald B. Cox writes: > > Regardless, as I mentioned above, if they have a bug, then it > > should be reported for them to address. > > I wouldn't call it a bug, just bad UX for a minority(?) target > audience. I'm pretty sure the Discourse developers would concede that bad UX for email users is undesirable. I'm *not* sure they would concede that it's bad UX. We know how to render HTML to plain text, to RTF, and so on; Discourse deliberately chose not to do so, but rather chose a format of their own or perhaps some existing format (this is the first I've heard of BBcode, so I can't judge). Thus, I doubt that reporting an issue against Discourse's email functionality would get action any time soon from the developers, and might get a lot of pushback. Given that support from Red Hat/Fedora community for Mailman development has decreased dramatically, I don't see why they would want to pick up responsibility for patching up Discourse instead. So I see years of annoyance for those who have really effective email workflows, being constrained to Discourse's. I suspect that the number of people who really want email is at least as big as those who really want a forum, and they probably contribute more code and admin (which are typically communication-intensive, multicast activities), though forum-oriented users may contribute greatly in other ways (user support has been mentioned, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's easier both for the OP and responders in forum format -- synchronous communication does a lot of work to avoid redundancy, and editing out mistaken information is a real feature for user support). And I suppose there are a lot of people in the middle who don't care much either way (ignoring costs of moving to a new channel, which are significant in the short run but not really in the long run IMO), probably a majority. Gerald's personal anecdotes suggest that people who are weakly attached to the channel (jumping into threads in the middle, signing up for their one issue, etc) are going to find the forum format more convenient. I find his discussion persuasive on that, as I have no problem with the forum format when I have a drive-by interest in some channel. This is *not* a put-down, it's simply a statement that a certain group of users would probably be happier with a forum. (I'm not sure user support is a goal of this channel, but I've seen many threads devoted to issues of system configuration that have zero likelihood of inducing development of Fedora.) > > Mailing list mode has been out for several years now - seems to > > me if this were a pervasive issue with a published standardize > > solution, they should take care of it. Email doesn't have a standardized solution or standardized format for content. That's why people like HTML email -- it's a quasi-standard mess that browsers and browser-derived messaging clients have huge code bases for handling, and 25 years on have gotten pretty good at it. Most clients' outgoing messages now are pretty close to HTML 5 conformant, but there's still a huge mismatch with "traditional" email clients because email standards use a different mechanism from HTML for embedding objects in the data stream. (That may not be a big problem with Discourse depending on how it handles such media, and how the lists are configured.) The standards that have been referred to are SMTP (RFC 5321, which basically requires that if you accept a connection at the TCP level, you should say you're refusing to accept mail rather than dropping it silently), the Internet message format (RFC 5322, which basically defines email as an ASCII text stream divided into a header containing various metadata and a body), and the Multimedia Mail Extensions (MIME, with a plethora of RFCs starting with the 2045-2049 series) which define ways to encode non-ASCII data (both text and non-text), ways to include non-text data, and ways to mix various media, in a message body. Among the latter is the multipart/alternative body part (defined in RFC 2046, IIRC), which allows catering to various user agents, and does require that the alternatives have as close to the same semantics as the media make possible. This provision of RFC 2046 is violated by a lot of HTML-oriented clients, which embed attachments in the HTML where they can't easily be accessed by non-HTML clients, or even provide a plain text alternative that says "use an HTML client", rather than a plain text version of the HTML content. I don't think that's a problem with
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 8:31 AM Chris Adams wrote:
> > Once upon a time, R P Herrold said:
> > > perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this
> > > thread with
> >
> > Matt didn't choose that - that subject was set by Gerald B. Cox.
> >
> > As I previously mentioned with all the top-posting, excerpts and hyperbole
> interjected by others people
> get lost and run with mis-quotes - perhaps Discourse could help with that.
Moments before I read this I checked for myself who had changed the
subject line. It took me about five seconds to scroll up in the tree
view, find the point where the subject changed, and read the name on
the same line. Having just done that so easily, I can really appreciate
how utterly misdirected your remark is.
If it's difficult for you to check who wrote a subject line, then your
problem is that you're trying to read a mailing list through a user
agent that isn't up to the task. And, speaking of misquotes, the
misattributed line that can be seen above ("As I previously ...") is a
visible indication that you're not using one of the better Mail User
Agents.
Humans will always misremember things, and not bother to check because
they think they remember. No technology is going to help with that
until we get direct neural interfaces.
Björn Persson
pgp8_Oolc_3BC.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signatur
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Gerald, I'm the person who designed Hyperkitty's concept on a napkin on a shuttlebus with Luke Macken some years ago. Your characterization of it here is incorrect. I say this with respect, please try to listen more than you post. Hyperkitty stats show you're dominating this conveesation. ~m ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 3:58 PM stan wrote: > On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 08:58:57 -0700 > "Gerald B. Cox" wrote: > > Software is a tool for me. I don't get emotionally attached to it - > > as some people apparently are. It's a bit telling that > > many people seem to be afraid that Discourse will be a success. > > It isn't free for people who have already a good working system to > adopt Discourse. They have to invest time and effort in learning, > adapting, and helping fix the new system. What's in it for them? I've > had this happen to me in the past, but I was paid by my employer for > the time and effort. > > You aren't really selling Discourse, so much as trying to bludgeon > people into going along with your opinion. Anyone who's been around > the block a few times knows that there are lots of fads with fabulous > press that don't pan out. Indeed-- this thread feels like it has deteriorated into pro-Discourse and pro-email people sniping at each other. I am not sure how useful continuing to say things like "And if this conversation were in Discourse..." or "perhaps Discourse could help with that" really is when trying to convince people who don't agree with you. I don't know that I feel strongly one way or the other about Discourse vs. email. What I do feel strongly about, as I wrote much earlier in the thread, is that any plan to move something as important to the project as email to a new system really needs to be carefully considered. And part of that careful consideration needs to be an honest assessment of what the negative consequences are likely to be. I suspect the negative consequences (as many have already said) are that it won't be possible to use Discourse as a drop-in replacement for these mailing lists, which will break the workflows of numerous current contributors, causing them to become less involved in discussions and perhaps the project altogether. It is a bit disheartening that some of those advocating the change seem unwilling to acknowledge this, or have dismissed it as people who aren't willing to move with the times, or as just "hyperbole". Ben Rosser ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Re: teenagers and timelines, I'm just addressing the specific concerns that were raised to me. ~m ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, 2018-10-19 at 13:05 -0700, Samuel Sieb wrote: > For example, github and bugzilla work because they > have full email messages. I don't have to go to the website to get > the > rest of the message. You actually can reply to the e-mails from GitHub (not sure about Bugzilla). They do thread weirdly when you do that to a review comment vs. replying to the review comment on the HTML, so it's a bit janky, but it does work. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/19/18 8:58 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: Software is a tool for me. I don't get emotionally attached to it - as some people apparently are. It's a bit telling that many people seem to be afraid that Discourse will be a success. I'm not emotionally attached to it, but I am somewhat afraid that Discourse will be a success. Forum-type communication websites do not work for me personally, so if this mailing list moved to Discourse, my involvement could drop drastically depending on how the email integration works. For example, github and bugzilla work because they have full email messages. I don't have to go to the website to get the rest of the message. I do have to go there in order to reply, but that's mostly ok. However, most forums just send you an email saying there's something new on the topic with maybe a truncated bit of the message and I have to go to the website to figure out what's happened. That does not work and I have very little participation on those. I find that email works really well. It's easy to search, I control the labelling, organizing and filtering, I can back it up, I can use it offline, minimal data usage on my phone, and so on. Features that just aren't going to work on a website-based system. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 08:58:57 -0700 "Gerald B. Cox" wrote: > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 8:31 AM Chris Adams wrote: > > > Once upon a time, R P Herrold said: > > > This seems very tone deaf and lacking in introspection, Matt > > > > > > perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this > > > thread with > > > > Matt didn't choose that - that subject was set by Gerald B. Cox. Yeah, it is kind of confrontational; there's a big difference between 'Should Fedora replace mailing lists with Discourse?' and 'Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse.' One implies a community discourse, the other implies a decision already made. > As I previously mentioned with all the top-posting, excerpts and > hyperbole > interjected by others people > get lost and run with mis-quotes - perhaps Discourse could help with > that. ;-) > > Software is a tool for me. I don't get emotionally attached to it - > as some people apparently are. It's a bit telling that > many people seem to be afraid that Discourse will be a success. It isn't free for people who have already a good working system to adopt Discourse. They have to invest time and effort in learning, adapting, and helping fix the new system. What's in it for them? I've had this happen to me in the past, but I was paid by my employer for the time and effort. You aren't really selling Discourse, so much as trying to bludgeon people into going along with your opinion. Anyone who's been around the block a few times knows that there are lots of fads with fabulous press that don't pan out. So, you are really gung-ho for Discourse. What is your personal experience of using it on a project, before and after? Did you actually see more engagement? Did the process of development run smoother than it had before? Did new contributors join the project you were working on? Did experienced contributors keep contributing? Did it help build community spirit? Did it make *your* life easier? ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, 19 Oct 2018, Chris Adams wrote: > Once upon a time, R P Herrold said: > > This seems very tone deaf and lacking in introspection, Matt > > > > perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this > > thread with > > Matt didn't choose that - that subject was set by Gerald B. Cox. If you say so (and I have no reason to doubt, but cannot confirm, so: sorry for the mis-attribution, Matt) ... at the URL in your email message headers is a link to: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/KXPPKQNLJ6SZBUHKBMLB4OZY7WA77FGP/ Perma-link: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/3MZCLLM47LIO6LFJC33RIFJHTIKQPFWP/#KXPPKQNLJ6SZBUHKBMLB4OZY7WA77FGP and at that page, the link titled ' Back to the thread ' points into a wholly different discussion https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/3MZCLLM47LIO6LFJC33RIFJHTIKQPFWP/#KXPPKQNLJ6SZBUHKBMLB4OZY7WA77FGP One more reason to dislike KyperKitty hashes over pipermail -- Russ herrold ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 07:49:41AM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > Oh really... I said that... perhaps you should take 5 seconds and read the > subject of the thread. Hey, let's please keep this friendly. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, 2018-10-19 at 07:28 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > And if this conversation were in Discourse, we could simply move it to a > new topic ;-) Some people see it as history rewriting ... one of the reasons I like email is that *you* can't change stuff after the fact, because *I* have it archived. Simo. -- Simo Sorce Sr. Principal Software Engineer Red Hat, Inc ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 10:40:18AM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: > I don't like saying this, but what it comes down to is that our > relationship with RHEL has evolved into a one-sided affair. I wish > someone who is empowered to do something about it would, but the rest > of us can't. > > Frankly, I suspect you're the only person who could maybe do anything > about it, and I'm not certain you could do anything about it. Time to pull back the curtain a little bit, I guess. :) I think the issue isn't really RHEL-Fedora, but Red Hat-Fedora. Red Hat isn't a large company in the sense of Oracle or SAP or whatever, let alone Microsoft or Apple, but it's much bigger than it used to be, and much bigger than RHEL. Most of Red Hat's _financial_ engagement in Fedora comes from two places: Platform (i.e., RHEL) and associated groups like QE, and from the CTO's office via OSAS. In the first bucket, that's hardware and infrastructure, the people paid to be on the community infra team (and work in Fedora Infrastructure and Rel-Eng), and me. In the second, the CTO's office, that's Bex — and now Sanja on CoreOS and Silverblue — and also our community budget. On the Platform side, it's easy (and, increasingly so, really!) to get Red Hat interested Fedora technology that has a direct connection to improving, well, the platform. This is the answer to why funding for Pagure and not HyperKitty or Hubs. The src.fedoraproject.org thing and what we're working on with shared dist-git with CentOS... easy dots to connect. This part of Red Hat *cares* about Fedora as a succcessful community, but also has to justify spending, and as the company overall invests in OpenShift in the Enterprise, there's not a lot of extra. Meanwhile, the other side of the coin, over in the CTO's office — Fedora's community budget and staffing is a significant chunk already. (The Discourse experiment funding is coming through Sanja and not the Fedora community budget, FWIW.) As much as I think the CTO's office *should*, they don't have a group of programmers available to work on community open source tooling. I definitely am pushing as much as I can for more of that kind of investment, and ... maybe some things will bear fruit. I have to say, though (since it's super-relevant to the discussion here) one of the very first questions I get every time is: "Why does Fedora have so much of its own stuff when there are open source alternatives? What's with the huge NIH complex?" I do a lot of shoving rocks uphill on that one! But if we want this to be a two-way balanced relationship, it can't be all "Red Hat isn't spending enough money on Fedora's non-engineering needs!". What else do you (not just Neal — take this as an open question!) think we should do differently from a Red Hat side? -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/19/18 6:43 AM, Neal Gompa wrote: > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:16 AM Gerald B. Cox wrote: >> >> Again, I believe some are trying to do an apples to apples comparison with >> Discourse and mailing list technologies. Discourse was build from the >> ground up with the goal of fostering communication and collaboration. >> Hyperkitty is a bolt on HTML to mailing list archives. It's good for what >> it is, but it isn't Discourse - and usage numbers tend to bear that out. >> > > That's an unfair characterization. HyperKitty was designed from the > ground up with that goal in mind too. The _sole_ difference is the > backend approach. Discourse uses a database system while HyperKitty > uses a mail list engine. > > You know why the usage numbers bear that out? Because the upgrade to > HyperKitty was mishandled and delayed over and over. We were screwed > over by the fact that our infrastructure doesn't run on Fedora, so > that made it harder to get it working. The initial deployment was very > slow and unoptimized. Bugs in the UI remained unfixed in Fedora's > installation even though upstream fixed them. I would not be surprised > if upstream ignores us because we don't seem to be upgrading. Huh, you do realize that things take as long as they take, and there's no magic wand for 'it's magically done'. mailman3 was a massive undertaking with a very small group of developers, many of whom were wanting things to be really done before releasing them. Much of our infrastructure does run on Fedora, and mailman3 could too if we needed it to. It just wasn't the decision at the time. Bugs remain unfixed because there's not too much bugfixing going on. I see two commits in this month, 2 last month, 1 the month before... You can always ask why we aren't upgrading. In this case it's because we are moving stuff to python36 from 34. If these fixes are urgent let us know and we can re-evaluate and try and get things faster. I was under the impression that the fixes were pretty minor. ...snip... > We have not taken good care of our mail list infrastructure. I don't > blame our infra team. I blame the fact our infra runs on RHEL, and > RHEL has handicapped us in so many ways because of their own choices. > Fedora can't control its own (infrastructure) destiny because we have > no power to influence RHEL at all. And that's broken. Thats simply not the case. We run many things on Fedora. We do so where it makes sense and RHEL where that makes sense, and increasingly OpenShift when that makes sense. ;) I attempted to use the discourse rss feeds this last week, and they were... not great. I still need to try mailing list mode before speaking much more on it. kevin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 12:19:43PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: > I'm more afraid that it'll be a success with casualties. In other > words, it'll be a failure but not look like one at a glance. Driving > people away and making it harder to keep track of topics of import is > going to necessarily constrain how much people are able and willing to > do. It doesn't get simpler than that. And I have *not* seen a > Discourse instance be successful in that with large teams, much less > large groups like the development groups within Fedora. Yeah -- this is completely reasonable! -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 12:00 PM Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 8:31 AM Chris Adams wrote: >> >> Once upon a time, R P Herrold said: >> > This seems very tone deaf and lacking in introspection, Matt >> > >> > perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this >> > thread with >> >> Matt didn't choose that - that subject was set by Gerald B. Cox. >> > As I previously mentioned with all the top-posting, excerpts and hyperbole > interjected by others people > get lost and run with mis-quotes - perhaps Discourse could help with that. > ;-) > > Software is a tool for me. I don't get emotionally attached to it - as some > people apparently are. It's a bit telling that > many people seem to be afraid that Discourse will be a success. > I'm more afraid that it'll be a success with casualties. In other words, it'll be a failure but not look like one at a glance. Driving people away and making it harder to keep track of topics of import is going to necessarily constrain how much people are able and willing to do. It doesn't get simpler than that. And I have *not* seen a Discourse instance be successful in that with large teams, much less large groups like the development groups within Fedora. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 8:31 AM Chris Adams wrote: > Once upon a time, R P Herrold said: > > This seems very tone deaf and lacking in introspection, Matt > > > > perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this > > thread with > > Matt didn't choose that - that subject was set by Gerald B. Cox. > > As I previously mentioned with all the top-posting, excerpts and hyperbole interjected by others people get lost and run with mis-quotes - perhaps Discourse could help with that. ;-) Software is a tool for me. I don't get emotionally attached to it - as some people apparently are. It's a bit telling that many people seem to be afraid that Discourse will be a success. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Once upon a time, R P Herrold said: > This seems very tone deaf and lacking in introspection, Matt > > perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this > thread with Matt didn't choose that - that subject was set by Gerald B. Cox. -- Chris Adams ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, 19 Oct 2018, Matthew Miller wrote: >> Neal Gompa: >> because you're dead set on this anyway. > Matt Miller: > I ... don't know how to engage constructively with this accusation, because > it it seems to come from absolutely nowhere. Yes, we're *definitely* trying This seems very tone deaf and lacking in introspection, Matt perhaps by reading the subject line you chose to start this thread with No mention of trying out, no mention of a trial. Just the usual 'this is a done deal' announcement on an extremely high volume mailing list I had trialled Discourse six months ago, leaving it on for days at a time. The web client had a leak down in it somewhere, My baseline load average went up and I ended up with a frozen web browser once all free ram and swap was exhausted. Migrate or not as you wish, it will simply be another place where Fedoraproject went off the tracks, chasing a mythical low involvement 'tire kicker' instead of supporting developers using mature tools and technologies (mailing lists, bugzilla, procmail sorting, mutt or alpine) The non-migratation capabilities of early MM3 efforts have been detailed earlier in this thread. Hyperkitty pretends a 33 character hash conveys more information than the MM2 model for pipermail, or say: MMDD-, but no-one was willing to critique a bad choice Pagure is great and all, but I recall filing a bug ... somewhere ... pagure, git, how knows ... about a cross-site inter-panel info leak, but there is no SPOT -- single point of truth -- in Fedora's hall of mirrors to find it later ad hoc. That does not happen with Bugzilla as I have a portfolio of several dozen custom searches that would reveal it to me with a couple clicks But charging off to a new shiny hill seems more important to Fedoraproject ** shrug ** -- Russ herrold ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Le vendredi 19 octobre 2018 à 07:54 -0700, Gerald B. Cox a écrit : > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:43 AM Nicolas Mailhot < > > You really should try it, you might like it. BTW, there are no ads in > the Fedora Discourse instance, so > not sure what you are talking about there. As far as email is > concerned the trends are clear... just do a > web search. Ah yes, the advertising industry, that created the web forum bubble and its social media derivative, publishes report after report they're the thing and no one is using mail any more, so you can safely invest even more money advertising on web forums and social media. In the meanwhile? Websites still use mail. People who do work still use mail. Anyone who needs to publish anything he wants to be able to find some years later still uses mail, or simple websites. Even so-called millenials move to mail, as soon as they need to fill taxes, or anything else that requires tracking things for years, and they notice the hard way the transient nature of web forums and social media (transient *except* for the extracted personal data). -- Nicolas Mailhot ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:43 AM Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le vendredi 19 octobre 2018 à 07:28 -0700, Gerald B. Cox a écrit : > > And if this conversation were in Discourse, we could simply move it to > > a new topic ;-) > > And if it where is discourse I would’t participate in it. > > Basically, as others said, not interested in shiny tech that has no > notion of interop, has a single implementation, and a shelf life of a > couple years. > > There's a reason every single web site out there quietly drops the shiny > things bit to fall back on email and sms as soon as it manipulates > anything $$$ related. email and sms are an ugly but reliable and > standard way to reach anyone. The native web forums are just ephemeral > eye-cather mutually incompatible things designed make you read ads (as > Mairin explained better than me). > > Now, it it were packaged in Fedora, and deployed on Fedora infra, > without any magic call to a third party website, that would be something > else. Wouldn't change the probability upstream would give up on it as > soon as it was not shiny and cool anymore, but at least I and Fedora > would not totally depend on them for our data. > You really should try it, you might like it. BTW, there are no ads in the Fedora Discourse instance, so not sure what you are talking about there. As far as email is concerned the trends are clear... just do a web search. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:41 AM Neal Gompa wrote: > > > I'm not talking about you in the Fedora sense. I'm talking about > Gerald and his saying "we must move everything to Discourse". > Oh really... I said that... perhaps you should take 5 seconds and read the subject of the thread. As far as Hyperkitty is concerned you need to take a few minutes and re-read Matt's response. But again, Hyperkitty is not the point of this thread. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Le vendredi 19 octobre 2018 à 07:28 -0700, Gerald B. Cox a écrit : > And if this conversation were in Discourse, we could simply move it to > a new topic ;-) And if it where is discourse I would’t participate in it. Basically, as others said, not interested in shiny tech that has no notion of interop, has a single implementation, and a shelf life of a couple years. There's a reason every single web site out there quietly drops the shiny things bit to fall back on email and sms as soon as it manipulates anything $$$ related. email and sms are an ugly but reliable and standard way to reach anyone. The native web forums are just ephemeral eye-cather mutually incompatible things designed make you read ads (as Mairin explained better than me). Now, it it were packaged in Fedora, and deployed on Fedora infra, without any magic call to a third party website, that would be something else. Wouldn't change the probability upstream would give up on it as soon as it was not shiny and cool anymore, but at least I and Fedora would not totally depend on them for our data. -- Nicolas Mailhot ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 10:11 AM Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 09:43:48AM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: > > It's also bad for archiving, since threads are inherently unstable. > > Conversation splitting and merging is very awkward (as I've observed > > in the Snapcraft Discourse). I can keep going, but it doesn't matter, > > because you're dead set on this anyway. > > I ... don't know how to engage constructively with this accusation, because > it it seems to come from absolutely nowhere. Yes, we're *definitely* trying > out Discourse. That's not a conspiracy — it's live! We're also trying out > HyperKitty. It's live too! We try stuff! > Do not misunderstand me, I don't mind trying out Discourse for certain types of conversations if we want to, and clearly some communities in Fedora do. But I feel like we've done a bad job with giving HyperKitty a fair shake. The same thing happened with Pagure too, but someone had the wherewithal to push everything forward enough to make it a success, and even now I'll say that Pagure is a nice environment. Yeah, Pagure is still missing things I wish it had, but it's evolving and growing. It took a few years, but it happened. I know that the big promotion push for HyperKitty was supposed to come with Hubs, but somehow that project died before it could go anywhere, so... I'm happy to help with infra related stuff, but I'm just not equipped to do so. Only a few people are. :( > The rest of everything — development resources, infrastructure, whether > there is widespread adoption — that's not something arguing over will > change. When we can *see* something is not working, we can't just complain > that those are unfair. we should try something else. > The reason I'm arguing about it now is because it doesn't seem to be fixable from the background. We just keep hacking around it over and over. I don't like saying this, but what it comes down to is that our relationship with RHEL has evolved into a one-sided affair. I wish someone who is empowered to do something about it would, but the rest of us can't. Frankly, I suspect you're the only person who could maybe do anything about it, and I'm not certain you could do anything about it. > But the comments from several people implying some sort of fait accompli > here, that some backroom decision has been made, that we're somehow trying > to destroy communication seriously? > I'm not talking about you in the Fedora sense. I'm talking about Gerald and his saying "we must move everything to Discourse". -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 10:10:22AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > I ... don't know how to engage constructively with this accusation, because > it it seems to come from absolutely nowhere. Yes, we're *definitely* trying > out Discourse. That's not a conspiracy — it's live! We're also trying out > HyperKitty. It's live too! We try stuff! Can you please turn on the ability to create new threads via email/mailing list mode in Discourse? Thank you. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
And if this conversation were in Discourse, we could simply move it to a new topic ;-) On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:21 AM Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le vendredi 19 octobre 2018 à 14:55 +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé a écrit : > > > > I don't know why Red Hat's mailman impl isn't upgraded, but it is > > not blocked by lack of Python 3 on RHEL. > > > > Red Hat Software Collections have been providing Python 3.x versions > > that run on RHEL since ~2013. They exist as add-on yum repos, > > Well that's another thing 200% broken in the current Fedora RHEL > universe (and I speak both with my Fedora contributor hat, and as > someone who was tasked with procuring RHEL systems in a fortune xxx > company not so long ago). > > The whole "but it's in an optional RHEL repo" just kills *any* form > RHEL/Fedora symbiosis. > > No one but RH knows what ends up in what optional repo for what reason, > they're ignored by Centos, it's completely impossible to push anything a > tad complex from Fedora to EPEL because it will depend on things RH > stashed away in an optional repo centos does not rebuild, and you're > forbidden to put a copy in EPEL because it may collide with the optional > repos, and so on. > > That's how we end up with the hilarious situation where the Go EPEL6 > stack is both newer and more complete than the Go EPEL7 stack because RH > vacuumed some Go packages in an optional EL7 repo and now it's > impossible to do anything Go-related in EPEL7. > > I'm sure the RH marketoïds *love* the optional repos, it's segmentation > market 101, but concretely? They're the kiss of death for anything in > Fedora that has enterprise applications, because almost no one is going > to bother contributing things in Fedora, that he needs enterprise-side, > if the result has zero chance of ending up in EPEL. > > The end result is that no one but RH contributes to EL optional repos, > and no one who is working on RH EL7 repos has the slightest interest in > integrating with Fedora since they do not see any stream of EPEL Fedora > contributions. > > Or, you end up deploying enterprise systems with your own private > rebuild of Fedora packages for EL, and you know what? At this point the > bean counters just ask “why are we paying $$$ to RH again, I see you > spend your time rebuilding Fedora packages, can't you use Debian if the > EL part of RHEL is useless?” > > Regards, > > -- > Nicolas Mailhot > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Le vendredi 19 octobre 2018 à 14:55 +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé a écrit : > > I don't know why Red Hat's mailman impl isn't upgraded, but it is > not blocked by lack of Python 3 on RHEL. > > Red Hat Software Collections have been providing Python 3.x versions > that run on RHEL since ~2013. They exist as add-on yum repos, Well that's another thing 200% broken in the current Fedora RHEL universe (and I speak both with my Fedora contributor hat, and as someone who was tasked with procuring RHEL systems in a fortune xxx company not so long ago). The whole "but it's in an optional RHEL repo" just kills *any* form RHEL/Fedora symbiosis. No one but RH knows what ends up in what optional repo for what reason, they're ignored by Centos, it's completely impossible to push anything a tad complex from Fedora to EPEL because it will depend on things RH stashed away in an optional repo centos does not rebuild, and you're forbidden to put a copy in EPEL because it may collide with the optional repos, and so on. That's how we end up with the hilarious situation where the Go EPEL6 stack is both newer and more complete than the Go EPEL7 stack because RH vacuumed some Go packages in an optional EL7 repo and now it's impossible to do anything Go-related in EPEL7. I'm sure the RH marketoïds *love* the optional repos, it's segmentation market 101, but concretely? They're the kiss of death for anything in Fedora that has enterprise applications, because almost no one is going to bother contributing things in Fedora, that he needs enterprise-side, if the result has zero chance of ending up in EPEL. The end result is that no one but RH contributes to EL optional repos, and no one who is working on RH EL7 repos has the slightest interest in integrating with Fedora since they do not see any stream of EPEL Fedora contributions. Or, you end up deploying enterprise systems with your own private rebuild of Fedora packages for EL, and you know what? At this point the bean counters just ask “why are we paying $$$ to RH again, I see you spend your time rebuilding Fedora packages, can't you use Debian if the EL part of RHEL is useless?” Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 09:43:48AM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: > It's also bad for archiving, since threads are inherently unstable. > Conversation splitting and merging is very awkward (as I've observed > in the Snapcraft Discourse). I can keep going, but it doesn't matter, > because you're dead set on this anyway. I ... don't know how to engage constructively with this accusation, because it it seems to come from absolutely nowhere. Yes, we're *definitely* trying out Discourse. That's not a conspiracy — it's live! We're also trying out HyperKitty. It's live too! We try stuff! The rest of everything — development resources, infrastructure, whether there is widespread adoption — that's not something arguing over will change. When we can *see* something is not working, we can't just complain that those are unfair. we should try something else. But the comments from several people implying some sort of fait accompli here, that some backroom decision has been made, that we're somehow trying to destroy communication seriously? -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 6:45 AM Neal Gompa wrote: > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:16 AM Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > > Again, I believe some are trying to do an apples to apples comparison > with Discourse and mailing list technologies. Discourse was build from the > ground up with the goal of fostering communication and collaboration. > Hyperkitty is a bolt on HTML to mailing list archives. It's good for what > it is, but it isn't Discourse - and usage numbers tend to bear that out. > > > > That's an unfair characterization. HyperKitty was designed from the > ground up with that goal in mind too. The _sole_ difference is the > backend approach. Discourse uses a database system while HyperKitty > uses a mail list engine. > > if you think the "sole" difference between HyperKitty and Discourse is the backend approach you're not looking very hard. It's quite apparent just by looking at it. If yperKitty's design goals are the exact same as Discourse they hid it pretty well in their online documentation. > You know why the usage numbers bear that out? Because the upgrade to > HyperKitty was mishandled and delayed over and over. We were screwed > over by the fact that our infrastructure doesn't run on Fedora, so > that made it harder to get it working. The initial deployment was very > slow and unoptimized. Bugs in the UI remained unfixed in Fedora's > installation even though upstream fixed them. I would not be surprised > if upstream ignores us because we don't seem to be upgrading. > I don't agree with that being the reason - I believe it is the design approach and goals - but even if that were true - that ship has sailed. > > The development process for HyperKitty basically stalled out because > migrations were impossible from Mailman 2 to Mailman 3 for a *very* > long time. Fedora somehow did it, and that seemed to have not gone > back upstream, so until *very recently*, upstream did not recommend > doing mm2 to mm3 upgrades. > This thread isn't about making excuses for Hyperkitty - it's about Discourse. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 09:43:48AM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: > That *completely* handicapped adoption of HyperKitty, because > HyperKitty requires Mailman 3. What's worse, because it's almost > impossible to run on RHEL due to the lack of Python 3 (which continues > to anger and frustrate me), Red Hat never migrated their mailing > lists. Red Hat's lists are one of the larger installations, and it was > a real blow to not have that migrate. I don't know why Red Hat's mailman impl isn't upgraded, but it is not blocked by lack of Python 3 on RHEL. Red Hat Software Collections have been providing Python 3.x versions that run on RHEL since ~2013. They exist as add-on yum repos, rather than part of the base since they have a different support lifecycle and to avoid interfering with the system python binary which is depended on by many other apps/tools https://access.redhat.com/solutions/472793 https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/rhscl Regards, Daniel -- |: https://berrange.com -o-https://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange :| |: https://libvirt.org -o-https://fstop138.berrange.com :| |: https://entangle-photo.org-o-https://www.instagram.com/dberrange :| ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:16 AM Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > Again, I believe some are trying to do an apples to apples comparison with > Discourse and mailing list technologies. Discourse was build from the ground > up with the goal of fostering communication and collaboration. Hyperkitty is > a bolt on HTML to mailing list archives. It's good for what it is, but it > isn't Discourse - and usage numbers tend to bear that out. > That's an unfair characterization. HyperKitty was designed from the ground up with that goal in mind too. The _sole_ difference is the backend approach. Discourse uses a database system while HyperKitty uses a mail list engine. You know why the usage numbers bear that out? Because the upgrade to HyperKitty was mishandled and delayed over and over. We were screwed over by the fact that our infrastructure doesn't run on Fedora, so that made it harder to get it working. The initial deployment was very slow and unoptimized. Bugs in the UI remained unfixed in Fedora's installation even though upstream fixed them. I would not be surprised if upstream ignores us because we don't seem to be upgrading. The development process for HyperKitty basically stalled out because migrations were impossible from Mailman 2 to Mailman 3 for a *very* long time. Fedora somehow did it, and that seemed to have not gone back upstream, so until *very recently*, upstream did not recommend doing mm2 to mm3 upgrades. That *completely* handicapped adoption of HyperKitty, because HyperKitty requires Mailman 3. What's worse, because it's almost impossible to run on RHEL due to the lack of Python 3 (which continues to anger and frustrate me), Red Hat never migrated their mailing lists. Red Hat's lists are one of the larger installations, and it was a real blow to not have that migrate. The irony that I can probably get SUSE to deploy Mailman 3 and HyperKitty before Red Hat will is not lost on me. > The fact is that email usage is declining. People are moving away from it > and prefer to use other platforms for collaboration. As with many things... > when something new comes out, there are a group of people who push back and > want things to stay as they are - history has proven time and time again, > that change is inevitable. If something new is the better solution, as > people become aware of it and use it - it will become the go to solution. > The examples are endless and span multiple disciplines. > You know what? I bounce back and forth between HyperKitty and my email client. If all the lists I subscribed to used HyperKitty, I wouldn't be using my email client at all. While I don't generally reply from HK, it's mainly because of bugs that I know are fixed in newer versions. We have not taken good care of our mail list infrastructure. I don't blame our infra team. I blame the fact our infra runs on RHEL, and RHEL has handicapped us in so many ways because of their own choices. Fedora can't control its own (infrastructure) destiny because we have no power to influence RHEL at all. And that's broken. > Fedora has a long history of supporting new and innovative solutions and > toolsets. That is what helps differentiate us as a distribution. We need a > tool that will encourage more participation. I believe Discourse will help > with this - people will discover new and more efficient ways to do their work > and the sun will rise the next day. > And yet, for 15 years, Fedora didn't have a web forum for user support. People have asked for it over the years, and Fedora refused. That's why things like FedoraForum.org exist instead of being part of Fedora itself. I'm a guy who started with web forums who later used email lists, not the other way around. I vastly prefer forum-style environments. I still don't like Discourse for this kind of stuff, because it's just not designed for handling contextual conversations. And there are problems with Discourse too: doing partial quoting with attribution is annoying and requires editing the quote to restore that information. In addition, searching for posts and topics becomes exponentially slower as the system handles more content, which is a huge problem if you're trying to find information to cross reference. It's also bad for archiving, since threads are inherently unstable. Conversation splitting and merging is very awkward (as I've observed in the Snapcraft Discourse). I can keep going, but it doesn't matter, because you're dead set on this anyway. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Again, I believe some are trying to do an apples to apples comparison with Discourse and mailing list technologies. Discourse was build from the ground up with the goal of fostering communication and collaboration. Hyperkitty is a bolt on HTML to mailing list archives. It's good for what it is, but it isn't Discourse - and usage numbers tend to bear that out. The fact is that email usage is declining. People are moving away from it and prefer to use other platforms for collaboration. As with many things... when something new comes out, there are a group of people who push back and want things to stay as they are - history has proven time and time again, that change is inevitable. If something new is the better solution, as people become aware of it and use it - it will become the go to solution. The examples are endless and span multiple disciplines. Fedora has a long history of supporting new and innovative solutions and toolsets. That is what helps differentiate us as a distribution. We need a tool that will encourage more participation. I believe Discourse will help with this - people will discover new and more efficient ways to do their work and the sun will rise the next day. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
> On 2018-10-17 13:41, John Florian wrote: > > How does Discourse handle posts you've already read in a > thread that's still active. With things like reddit or LWN, you get to > read it over and over and over again if you really want to see whats new > now. It handles it very well. You don't have to read it over and over; just click on the thread and you'll jump to the first unread message. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
> On Thursday, 18 October 2018 at 23:04, Dominik wrote: > [...] > > So, I tried to answer in one of the threads and it's quite difficult, > in my opinion. The message compose pop-up doesn't quote the message > I'm replying to, so I can't write my comments in response to specific > passages by the previous person. Not being able to reply in context > is a deal-breaker to me. What do you call "a richer experience", > I wonder. > In Discourse you have two options: 1. Quote the whole post: first hit reply, then click on the bubble icon to quote the whole post you are replying to. 2. Quote part of the message: select the text you want to quote with the mouse and a Quote button will pop up; click on it and you are ready to reply. See this cheat sheet: https://www.sitepoint.com/community/t/discourse-cheat-sheet/733 BTW, Hyperkitty doesn't have the partial quoting feature AFAICT. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Máirín, On 2018-10-19 14:43, Máirín Duffy wrote: I'm open to all of those suggestions as well as committing to design and CSS work for them. I would need a web dev to help me though; I'm not great with Django. Please note, the reason Hyperkitty didn't cause this sort of thread or honestly any sort of drama or controversy when it was deployed is because it required no current users to change anything about their workflow, with one small exception - mm3 didn't come out w topic support which was used on the packagers list. (I don't believe that's an issue anymore.) The whole point of the design was to enable a new group of would be contributors be able to participate alongside the folks already there, so that everyone could participate together. Existing ML users never need to use Hyperkitty if they don't want to, and yet, users new to the project can start reading and participating in threads right away w no mail client config and never receiving a single email if they so desire. I believe quite strongly (and have from the start when I first heard of the project) that Discourse's basic UX model is fundamentally flawed. If we deploy discourse and roll it out, we *may* get new users, but as noted in this thread, we will lose existing ones. Participating in upstream effort on Discourse, improving it, etc is foolish bc the fundamental model is broken. When some people think of email, they think of mutt or thunderbird, annoying client config, setting up procmail or fetchmail or whatever other complex elaborate tools many of the ppl reading this use. Email is just a basic standard. Discourse does not follow that standard. There is no reason a social media timeline like experience for the teenagers is not possible using email as the underlying system. Jabber never really took off, except Google Hangouts and FB messenger both used it (no idea if they still do.) The reason our open standards like email and xmpp are dying off is bc the primary biz model of the companies that used them relies on getting eyes on ads, and scanning content in ways that mean giving users a choice of client that works best for their needs is off the table. Basically dont confuse the front end youre used to with the underlying tech. I think it's a better idea to use a tool based on open standards, that allows users to use the client experience that works best for them. If you try to force everyone down one road it won't work. A nice, informed response! Thanks, Phil. -- Philip Rhoades PO Box 896 Cowra NSW 2794 Australia E-mail: p...@pricom.com.au ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Fri, 2018-10-19 at 03:43 +, Máirín Duffy wrote: > I'm open to all of those suggestions as well as committing to design and CSS > work for them. I would need a web dev to help me though; I'm not great with > Django. > > Please note, the reason Hyperkitty didn't cause this sort of thread or > honestly any sort of drama or controversy when it was deployed is because it > required no current users to change anything about their workflow, with one > small exception - mm3 didn't come out w topic support which was used on the > packagers list. (I don't believe that's an issue anymore.) > > The whole point of the design was to enable a new group of would be > contributors be able to participate alongside the folks already there, so > that everyone could participate together. Existing ML users never need to use > Hyperkitty if they don't want to, and yet, users new to the project can start > reading and participating in threads right away w no mail client config and > never receiving a single email if they so desire. > > I believe quite strongly (and have from the start when I first heard of the > project) that Discourse's basic UX model is fundamentally flawed. If we > deploy discourse and roll it out, we *may* get new users, but as noted in > this thread, we will lose existing ones. Participating in upstream effort on > Discourse, improving it, etc is foolish bc the fundamental model is broken. > > When some people think of email, they think of mutt or thunderbird, annoying > client config, setting up procmail or fetchmail or whatever other complex > elaborate tools many of the ppl reading this use. Email is just a basic > standard. Discourse does not follow that standard. There is no reason a > social media timeline like experience for the teenagers is not possible using > email as the underlying system. Jabber never really took off, except Google > Hangouts and FB messenger both used it (no idea if they still do.) The reason > our open standards like email and xmpp are dying off is bc the primary biz > model of the companies that used them relies on getting eyes on ads, and > scanning content in ways that mean giving users a choice of client that works > best for their needs is off the table. Can we be careful with association of timelines with teenagers here? It's a tiny bit belittling, and makes us all sound old and out of touch, since my parents (who are obviously older than me) know what they are. I've been using Linux exclusively on the desktop for a bit over 15 years, so you can guess I'm not a teen. > Basically dont confuse the front end youre used to with the > underlying tech. > > I think it's a better idea to use a tool based on open standards, > that allows users to use the client experience that works best for > them. If you try to force everyone down one road it won't work. > > ~m > ___ > devel mailing list -- > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > > To unsubscribe send an email to > devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html > > List Guidelines: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Hi, Máirín. On Friday, 19 October 2018 at 05:43, Máirín Duffy wrote: [...] > I believe quite strongly (and have from the start when I first heard > of the project) that Discourse's basic UX model is fundamentally > flawed. If we deploy discourse and roll it out, we *may* get new > users, but as noted in this thread, we will lose existing ones. > Participating in upstream effort on Discourse, improving it, etc is > foolish bc the fundamental model is broken. Agreed. Well said. [...] > There is no reason a social media timeline like experience for the > teenagers is not possible using email as the underlying system. Jabber > never really took off, except Google Hangouts and FB messenger both > used it (no idea if they still do.) They used to, but no longer. Both have (d)evolved into their own proprietary protocols. For FB, there's a plugin for pidgin/libpurple that actually works quite well (purple-facebook package). [...] > I think it's a better idea to use a tool based on open standards, that > allows users to use the client experience that works best for them. If > you try to force everyone down one road it won't work. I fully agree. If the company behind Discourse goes away for some reason and the project is not picked up by community, we'll end up having to support it ourselves and I don't think we have resources for this. I don't think e-mail is going away anytime soon. Regards, Dominik -- Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and oppression to develop psychic muscles. -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Randy Barlow writes: > On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 13:14 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: >> Discourse is *definitely* not a smooth, drop-in mailing list >> replacement >> like Hyperkitty is. > > I'm curious what is insufficient about Hyperkitty that Discourse does > well at. Badges, those are super important. I already have the "First Emoji" and "First Quote" badge on Discourse and I can't wait to get the "First Bold Markup" one. ;-) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thursday, 18 October 2018 at 23:04, Gerald B. Cox wrote: [...] > I wouldn't expect it to be a "drop-in" mailing list replacement. > Yes, it allows some backward compatibility by providing > "mailing-list mode" - but you're going to get a richer > experience if you use native interfaces. So, I tried to answer in one of the threads and it's quite difficult, in my opinion. The message compose pop-up doesn't quote the message I'm replying to, so I can't write my comments in response to specific passages by the previous person. Not being able to reply in context is a deal-breaker to me. What do you call "a richer experience", I wonder. Regards, Dominik -- Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and oppression to develop psychic muscles. -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
Máirín Duffy wrote:
> So our Hyperkitty version is old here. I can't reporduce the issue on
> mailman3.org's HK, which is newer. I suspect this is a bug that's been fixed.
Indeed it was. An infrastructure ticket was filed ~7 months
back¹ and the issue was addressed upstream in 7558682 ("Fix
quoting of nested replies", 2018-04-24)².
The issue was that hyperkitty simply didn't include any
attribution of the quoted text, while many users assumed it
did and was quoting the wrong person.
Updating to hyperkitty >= 1.2.0 should resolve the issue.
Or the relatively small patch could be applied to our
instance -- if updating is a problem.
¹ https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/6802
² https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/commit/7558682
--
Todd
~~
Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable. Let us prepare
to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it
after all.
-- Douglas Adams
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
> On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 13:14 -0400, Randy Barlow (manually corrected) wrote: > > I'm curious what is insufficient about Hyperkitty that Discourse does > well at. A lot of stuff. If you try any Discourse website out there you'll see it immediately. Just an example. In Hyperkitty, when a new unread message appears in a thread and you click on it, you don't jump to the unread but start from the beginning and you have to search around to guess what's the new message. This is a big showstopper. In Discourse the usability is just miles ahead. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
> I'm replying from Hyperkitty interface. > > I clicked on Quote to quote your email, Randy, but your words appear as > written by > Matthew. Not good... > Also it seems there's no way to mark a thread as read/unread or special. > I have the feeling that following a list in Hyperkitty is almost impossible > (but I may be > missing something as I'm new to it). Now quoting myself and no name appears. I was wrong about the read/unread thing. After you visited a link, the thread won't have the envelope icon anymore, *but only after you refreshed the page*. It would be nice to have an immediate update. Visually the read/unread difference should be highlighted more: for example, unread may have some color background. I have to understand yet how to flag a conversation. Flag = star? https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/80 There's a _user_ documentation or a help page for Hyperkitty? ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
So our Hyperkitty version is old here. I can't reporduce the issue on mailman3.org's HK, which is newer. I suspect this is a bug that's been fixed. ~m ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
> On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 13:14 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > > I'm curious what is insufficient about Hyperkitty that Discourse does > well at. Wasn't Hyperkitty supposed to give people the forum > experience? I admit I haven't used it that much for reading or posting > (though I do use it for archive links sometimes and it seems fine for > that), since I really like the e-mail interface, so I am not familiar > with how nice or un-nice it is to use. I'm replying from Hyperkitty interface. I clicked on Quote to quote your email, Randy, but your words appear as written by Matthew. Not good... Also it seems there's no way to mark a thread as read/unread or special. I have the feeling that following a list in Hyperkitty is almost impossible (but I may be missing something as I'm new to it). ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
I'm open to all of those suggestions as well as committing to design and CSS work for them. I would need a web dev to help me though; I'm not great with Django. Please note, the reason Hyperkitty didn't cause this sort of thread or honestly any sort of drama or controversy when it was deployed is because it required no current users to change anything about their workflow, with one small exception - mm3 didn't come out w topic support which was used on the packagers list. (I don't believe that's an issue anymore.) The whole point of the design was to enable a new group of would be contributors be able to participate alongside the folks already there, so that everyone could participate together. Existing ML users never need to use Hyperkitty if they don't want to, and yet, users new to the project can start reading and participating in threads right away w no mail client config and never receiving a single email if they so desire. I believe quite strongly (and have from the start when I first heard of the project) that Discourse's basic UX model is fundamentally flawed. If we deploy discourse and roll it out, we *may* get new users, but as noted in this thread, we will lose existing ones. Participating in upstream effort on Discourse, improving it, etc is foolish bc the fundamental model is broken. When some people think of email, they think of mutt or thunderbird, annoying client config, setting up procmail or fetchmail or whatever other complex elaborate tools many of the ppl reading this use. Email is just a basic standard. Discourse does not follow that standard. There is no reason a social media timeline like experience for the teenagers is not possible using email as the underlying system. Jabber never really took off, except Google Hangouts and FB messenger both used it (no idea if they still do.) The reason our open standards like email and xmpp are dying off is bc the primary biz model of the companies that used them relies on getting eyes on ads, and scanning content in ways that mean giving users a choice of client that works best for their needs is off the table. Basically dont confuse the front end youre used to with the underlying tech. I think it's a better idea to use a tool based on open standards, that allows users to use the client experience that works best for them. If you try to force everyone down one road it won't work. ~m ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 9:11 PM Randy Barlow wrote: > > On Thu, 2018-10-18 at 14:04 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > Here is a link to discourse features: > > https://www.discourse.org/features > > > > I view hyperkitty as just a web interface for mailing lists - not > > much more > > than that. > > Discourse provides a more complete conversation / collaboration > > environment. If you > > take a look at the features page, you'll see it offers some nice > > capabilities. > > Reading that page, I don't see a lot that seems substantially different > from hyperkitty to me. Can you highlight what in particular you view as > a valuable difference? What is lacking about Hyperkitty? (CC'd Mairin Duffy, as she's probably the right person to give the feedback to, and could respond appropriately to my comments) In my opinion, there's only a few things needed to make HyperKitty excel: * Notifications hub for unread threads and such. For people who'd rather use HyperKitty to interface with the list, there needs to be a way to track threads and topics that you've participated in or are watching. * HyperKitty completely lacks a means of handling rich content. Some people may not agree with me on this, but having *zero* formatting sucks. Supporting at least Markdown (probably with CommonMark specification?) would be a major improvement. * There *needs* to be a flat view option. A lot of people don't realize this, but the reason why threaded views aren't normal in web forums is because they're absolutely awful for deep threads. The only reason it works in email is because email clients are usually too dumb to represent them accurately. * Topic splits aren't rendered as separate conversations to follow, which makes it difficult to understand what's happening because per the thing about threaded views, it gets really weird and awkward to follow multiple conversations spawned from the same mail. A nice to have would be a better visual style that's more responsive, exciting, and cleaner looking, but that's a matter of taste. I'm not much of a fan of the current era of Fedora web styles, as it feels like the life is sucked out of the site and it's just _boring_... Heck, I think the current Koji web style is more exciting than the current Bodhi and HyperKitty ones... -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, 2018-10-18 at 14:04 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > Here is a link to discourse features: > https://www.discourse.org/features > > I view hyperkitty as just a web interface for mailing lists - not > much more > than that. > Discourse provides a more complete conversation / collaboration > environment. If you > take a look at the features page, you'll see it offers some nice > capabilities. Reading that page, I don't see a lot that seems substantially different from hyperkitty to me. Can you highlight what in particular you view as a valuable difference? What is lacking about Hyperkitty? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 1:15 PM Randy Barlow wrote: > On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 13:14 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > > Discourse is *definitely* not a smooth, drop-in mailing list > > replacement > > like Hyperkitty is. > > I'm curious what is insufficient about Hyperkitty that Discourse does > well at. Wasn't Hyperkitty supposed to give people the forum > experience? I admit I haven't used it that much for reading or posting > (though I do use it for archive links sometimes and it seems fine for > that), since I really like the e-mail interface, so I am not familiar > with how nice or un-nice it is to use. > > Here is a link to discourse features: https://www.discourse.org/features I view hyperkitty as just a web interface for mailing lists - not much more than that. Discourse provides a more complete conversation / collaboration environment. If you take a look at the features page, you'll see it offers some nice capabilities. I wouldn't expect it to be a "drop-in" mailing list replacement. Yes, it allows some backward compatibility by providing "mailing-list mode" - but you're going to get a richer experience if you use native interfaces. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 13:14 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > Discourse is *definitely* not a smooth, drop-in mailing list > replacement > like Hyperkitty is. I'm curious what is insufficient about Hyperkitty that Discourse does well at. Wasn't Hyperkitty supposed to give people the forum experience? I admit I haven't used it that much for reading or posting (though I do use it for archive links sometimes and it seems fine for that), since I really like the e-mail interface, so I am not familiar with how nice or un-nice it is to use. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:40 PM Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On 10/18/18 6:31 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > Actually, I think that just creating a new discourse instance for > > discussions keeping the mailing > > lists around would be a good solution. You wouldn't have to worry about > > registration. People who wanted > > to use it or try it out could do that themselves - and you wouldn't have > to > > be concerned about moving archives, > > etc. You could then just let normal attrition handle it. > > Sure, but it might be not a great experience if not enough people watch > both or move to discourse. ie, people asking questions there or starting > discussions and no one answering them. > > So, if people want to discuss in discourse, great, but I don't think we > should create a vast sea of empty topics until/unless people are needing > them. > > Yeah, it's kind of a chicken / egg situation - you're not going to know until you throw something out there and let people give it a whirl and determine how it works for them in a real world situation - not some lab mockup. The Foreman results that Matt posted earlier appeared to indicate it would be worthwhile to try. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
* Gerald B. Cox [18/10/2018 06:31] : > > Actually, I think that just creating a new discourse instance for > discussions keeping the mailing lists around would be a good solution. The way I read this, it implies we would fragment developement disccusion in two, the people using mailing lists on one side and the people using discourse on the other. Whatever is decided, I hope this does not happen. Emmanuel ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:34:45PM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > You're missing the point of this thread - it's about the capabilities > of a tool to foster discussion and communication between mulitiple > people - it's not about cloning email software. What is "email software", if not a tool to foster discussion and communication between multiple people? - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, 2018-10-18 at 12:12 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:03 PM Simo Sorce wrote: > > > On Thu, 2018-10-18 at 11:51 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 11:02 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > > > > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know. > > > > > > > > No it is a service issue that just happen not to affect *your* client > > > > of choice. There is a big difference. > > > > > > > > Simo. > > > > > > > > > > You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent > > > responses. I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with > > > all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc. > > > > I did read the thread, and there is no difficulty at all to read a > > thread, given my client can do threading just fine, the comment stands. > > > > Well, maybe you need to read it again - because you're missing the point. Your quoting tells me half the issue is in the setup you chose or are forced to use. I think I understand the point, I just do not reach the same conclusions you do, each of us reach their conclusions based on their experiences. So perhaps we are both reaching wrong conclusions, I am not saying I am *right*, what I am saying is that you are not offering compelling reasons *to me*. Simo. -- Simo Sorce Sr. Principal Software Engineer Red Hat, Inc ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 09:24:03PM +0200, Tomasz Torcz wrote: > Using GMail (both legacy and Inbox) as a representation of email > workflow and ergonomy is not fair. Gmail as a client is abysmal. > No threading, no coloring of different level of citation, no integrated > GPG support, no comfortable editor. > Honest comparison would be between Discourse and Mutt+procmail, or > Gnus. > If one insist on using GMail as a server (instead of running one), > I believe there's a IMAP access method which should work with mutt. I agree that Gmail is awful. And, moreso, specifically hostile to mailing lists. However — and I say this as a die-hard mutt user with my own postfix server — we absolutely, no way, should make it seem like running such a setup is a prerequisite to involvement in Fedora development. If that's "fair", I don't want "fair". -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/18/18 6:31 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 5:33 AM Matthew Miller > wrote: > >> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 01:39:30PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: >>> I cannot *ever* recommend, in good conscious, moving to Discourse for >>> Fedora development discussions. >>> >>> However, I think it's fantastic for user support, as those are much >>> more context free, incidental, and so on. I've wished for a long time >> >> Yeah, I'm not suggesting moving all development discussion there, although >> I think there are people who *do* want to do development discussion that >> way, and I wouldn't want to _block_ that. >> > > Actually, I think that just creating a new discourse instance for > discussions keeping the mailing > lists around would be a good solution. You wouldn't have to worry about > registration. People who wanted > to use it or try it out could do that themselves - and you wouldn't have to > be concerned about moving archives, > etc. You could then just let normal attrition handle it. Sure, but it might be not a great experience if not enough people watch both or move to discourse. ie, people asking questions there or starting discussions and no one answering them. So, if people want to discuss in discourse, great, but I don't think we should create a vast sea of empty topics until/unless people are needing them. kevin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:28 PM wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce wrote: > > > You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent > > responses. I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with > > all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc. > > We have been doing that. The features touted for Discourse are automatic > and natural for email lists, and said to be poorly mimicked in Discourse. > > You're missing the point of this thread - it's about the capabilities of a tool to foster discussion and communication between mulitiple people - it's not about cloning email software. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:24 PM Tomasz Torcz wrote: > > > You like gmail […] > > Using GMail (both legacy and Inbox) as a representation of email > workflow and ergonomy is not fair. Gmail as a client is abysmal. > No threading, no coloring of different level of citation, no integrated > GPG support, no comfortable editor. > Honest comparison would be between Discourse and Mutt+procmail, or > Gnus. > If one insist on using GMail as a server (instead of running one), > I believe there's a IMAP access method which should work with mutt. > I use gmail... I don't like it... it's a software tool... there is no emotional attachment. That said, the point of this thread isn't gmail. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce wrote: > You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent > responses. I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with > all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc. We have been doing that. The features touted for Discourse are automatic and natural for email lists, and said to be poorly mimicked in Discourse. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 03:02:52PM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote: > On Thu, 2018-10-18 at 11:51 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 11:02 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > > > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me. > > > > > > > > > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part. > > > > > > > > Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know. > > > > > > No it is a service issue that just happen not to affect *your* client > > > of choice. There is a big difference. > > > > You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent > > responses. I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with > > all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc. > > I did read the thread, and there is no difficulty at all to read a > thread, given my client can do threading just fine, the comment stands. > > You like gmail […] Using GMail (both legacy and Inbox) as a representation of email workflow and ergonomy is not fair. Gmail as a client is abysmal. No threading, no coloring of different level of citation, no integrated GPG support, no comfortable editor. Honest comparison would be between Discourse and Mutt+procmail, or Gnus. If one insist on using GMail as a server (instead of running one), I believe there's a IMAP access method which should work with mutt. -- Tomasz .. oo o. oo o. .o .o o. o. oo o. .. Torcz.. .o .o .o .o oo oo .o .. .. oo oo o.o.o. .o .. o. o. o. o. o. o. oo .. .. o. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:03 PM Simo Sorce wrote: > On Thu, 2018-10-18 at 11:51 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 11:02 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > > > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me. > > > > > > > > > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know. > > > > > > No it is a service issue that just happen not to affect *your* client > > > of choice. There is a big difference. > > > > > > Simo. > > > > > > > You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent > > responses. I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with > > all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc. > > I did read the thread, and there is no difficulty at all to read a > thread, given my client can do threading just fine, the comment stands. > > Well, maybe you need to read it again - because you're missing the point. > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, 2018-10-18 at 11:51 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce wrote: > > > On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 11:02 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb wrote: > > > > > > > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me. > > > > > > > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part. > > > > > > > > > > Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know. > > > > No it is a service issue that just happen not to affect *your* client > > of choice. There is a big difference. > > > > Simo. > > > > You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent > responses. I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with > all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc. I did read the thread, and there is no difficulty at all to read a thread, given my client can do threading just fine, the comment stands. You like gmail, and it just so happen discourse will generate mails that rendere well in gmail ... I would be ready to bet that is because the developers of that feature only test with gmail ... The point was, you are looking only at your experience and not making an analysis of what the impact of a change is for *all* the users. You also state an opinion "discourse is just better" as fact, with a few other *opinions* only as supporting evidence. I think discourse may be a decent tool for fedora-users@ or some other forum, where discussion is shorter and generally more of a quick answer/reply shot. But devel@ is a completely different story, if you think discourse is much better is it possible that it's because your client doesn't handle mailing list very well and you should look for a better client ? Simo. -- Simo Sorce Sr. Principal Software Engineer Red Hat, Inc ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:40 AM Simo Sorce wrote: > On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 11:02 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb wrote: > > > > > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me. > > > > > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part. > > > > > > > Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know. > > No it is a service issue that just happen not to affect *your* client > of choice. There is a big difference. > > Simo. > You need to read the entire thread in context, including subsequent responses. I realize that can be difficult on a mailing list, with all the top-posting, conversation snippets, etc. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 11:02 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb wrote: > > > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me. > > > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part. > > > > Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know. No it is a service issue that just happen not to affect *your* client of choice. There is a big difference. Simo. -- Simo Sorce Sr. Principal Software Engineer Red Hat, Inc ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, 2018-10-17 at 13:14 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 05:00:32PM +, Anderson, Charles R wrote: > > How do I start a thread on Discourse from email? We should start this > > discussion over there so we can experience it ourselves. > > So, yeah, that's a thing: we currently have that feature turned off, because > I'm worried about spam. So you can reply to threads, but not start them. > > Discourse is *definitely* not a smooth, drop-in mailing list replacement > like Hyperkitty is. I am trying to understand what is the goal of moving development discussions to Discourse in this case. Is it to deter busy people from participating in the hopes of some fleeting engagement by superficially interested people will fill the void ? Simo. -- Simo Sorce Sr. Principal Software Engineer Red Hat, Inc ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 10/17/18 4:27 PM, Tomasz Torcz wrote: On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 02:54:23PM -0400, John Florian wrote: With things like reddit or LWN, you get to read it over and over and over again if you really want to see whats new now. https://lwn.net/Comments/unread will show you comments posted afteryour last visit, with one post in grey to provide context. Requires subscription, though. Ha! All these years later and now I learn this. Thanks Tomasz for sharing that. And my apologies to Corbet and friends for my lack of awareness. This is exactly why I love being wrong. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 5:33 AM Matthew Miller wrote: > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 01:39:30PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: > > I cannot *ever* recommend, in good conscious, moving to Discourse for > > Fedora development discussions. > > > > However, I think it's fantastic for user support, as those are much > > more context free, incidental, and so on. I've wished for a long time > > Yeah, I'm not suggesting moving all development discussion there, although > I think there are people who *do* want to do development discussion that > way, and I wouldn't want to _block_ that. > Actually, I think that just creating a new discourse instance for discussions keeping the mailing lists around would be a good solution. You wouldn't have to worry about registration. People who wanted to use it or try it out could do that themselves - and you wouldn't have to be concerned about moving archives, etc. You could then just let normal attrition handle it. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 01:39:30PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: > I cannot *ever* recommend, in good conscious, moving to Discourse for > Fedora development discussions. > > However, I think it's fantastic for user support, as those are much > more context free, incidental, and so on. I've wished for a long time Yeah, I'm not suggesting moving all development discussion there, although I think there are people who *do* want to do development discussion that way, and I wouldn't want to _block_ that. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:29:33AM -0400, Ben Rosser wrote: > I am not saying switching to Discourse is a *bad* idea. I am saying > that I, at least, would like to see a more serious proposal than > simply "just do it because it's better". That might require switching > one list over and seeing how well it works (and it sounded like the > Council was considering doing this with council-discuss, which is > probably a good first step). Yeah, I certainly am not suggesting we switch devel list, at least not for the forseeable future. Even if this whole thread kind of started with observations about actual problems we are seeing with the world today and mailing lists. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wednesday, 17 October 2018 at 21:15, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 1:55 PM John Florian wrote: > > > > How does Discourse handle posts you've already read in a thread that's > > still active. With things like reddit or LWN, you get to read it over and > > over and over again if you really want to see whats new now. > > Discourse handles this quite well actually, as long as you're logged > in. It will keep track of the last post you've seen as well as show > you counts of new messages in a particular thread. I wouldn't claim > that it's as good as an email client but it's much better than other > forums and comment sites. How does it "know" I read a particular message over e-mail when I access it again over the web interface? I think I can answer that without checking: it doesn't, so you are forced to re-read or at least click through the messages you read already in your e-mail client. If it had a login-only NNTP interface then it would be possible to sync "read" messages status between web and NNTP. And that would actually be pretty cool. Regards, Dominik -- Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and oppression to develop psychic muscles. -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wednesday, 17 October 2018 at 17:52, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 7:38 AM Anderson, Charles R wrote: [...] > > It is > > also required to send semantically similar contents in both the > > text/plain and text/html parts, so that the text/plain part can act as > > a real human-readable alternative in the multipart/alternative message > > (i.e. it shouldn't set the text/plain part to be something like "Your > > email client doesn't support HTML. Please open this message in an > > HTML-capable client.") > > > > In my experience so far with the 3 messages I've received from > > Discourse in mailing-list mode, it doesn't send raw HTML in the > > text/plain attachment. It sends something that looks like BBcode: > > Well, which is it? Rathann says html, you say bbcode? I didn't say it was HTML, I only said it was mangled, but Charles is right, it looks like BBcode, which doesn't really work in text mode. The standard for quoting is prefixing each line of quoted text with "> ". Highlighting that is implemented by default in mutt. > Regardless, as I mentioned above, if they have a bug, then it should > be reported for them to address. I wouldn't call it a bug, just bad UX for a minority(?) target audience. > Mailing list mode has been out for several years now - seems to me if > this were a pervasive issue with a published standardize solution, > they should take care of it. I suspect the kind of people that would be bothered by Discourse's mailing list mode deficiencies simply stop using it as soon as they find out how bad it is for them. I don't blame them. > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me. That's why. Try mutt or another text-based client and you'll see the difference. And personally, I recommend against Gmail because it's known to accept and silently drop some e-mail, which is against RFC5321 section 6.1.-6.2. Regards, -- Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and oppression to develop psychic muscles. -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 02:54:23PM -0400, John Florian wrote: > With things like reddit or LWN, you get to read it > over and over and over again if you really want to see whats new now. https://lwn.net/Comments/unread will show you comments posted afteryour last visit, with one post in grey to provide context. Requires subscription, though. -- Tomasz .. oo o. oo o. .o .o o. o. oo o. .. Torcz.. .o .o .o .o oo oo .o .. .. oo oo o.o.o. .o .. o. o. o. o. o. o. oo .. .. o. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 16:35 Anderson, Charles R wrote: > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 03:52:17PM -0300, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > I'm not an email expert by any means. What I said was that it works > > perfectly fine for me. If people have an issue with it they should file a > > bug or enhancement request with the discourse project. That way the issue > > could be addressed and everyone could benefit. > > Okay, so you care only for your own needs? Everyone else is on their > own? > > You are advocating for a change to how Fedora communicates, while > dismissing people's concerns about that change, and then putting the > onus on those same people to help improve the third-party cloud hosted > product so the change can work for them. How about we simply leave > things the way they are instead? It has worked fine for 15+ years. > Again... I am not an email expert nor am I experiencing the issue. If you are having the issue you are best capable to report it. As far as not being concerned... I wouldn't be engaging in a conversation if I weren't. Things change... Technology advances... > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 03:52:17PM -0300, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > I'm not an email expert by any means. What I said was that it works > perfectly fine for me. If people have an issue with it they should file a > bug or enhancement request with the discourse project. That way the issue > could be addressed and everyone could benefit. Okay, so you care only for your own needs? Everyone else is on their own? You are advocating for a change to how Fedora communicates, while dismissing people's concerns about that change, and then putting the onus on those same people to help improve the third-party cloud hosted product so the change can work for them. How about we simply leave things the way they are instead? It has worked fine for 15+ years. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 1:55 PM John Florian wrote: > > How does Discourse handle posts you've already read in a thread that's still > active. With things like reddit or LWN, you get to read it over and over and > over again if you really want to see whats new now. Discourse handles this quite well actually, as long as you're logged in. It will keep track of the last post you've seen as well as show you counts of new messages in a particular thread. I wouldn't claim that it's as good as an email client but it's much better than other forums and comment sites. -- Jeff Ollie The majestik møøse is one of the mäni interesting furry animals in Sweden. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On 2018-10-17 13:41, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:31 AM Jason L Tibbitts III
mailto:ti...@math.uh.edu>> wrote:
>>>>> "GBC" == Gerald B Cox mailto:gb...@bzb.us>>
writes:
GBC> People keep saying it isn't sufficient or it doesn't work. I've
GBC> been using it for 3 days and looks and acts like a normal mailing
GBC> list.
And I've been using it since the RT project switched a couple of years
ago. And... it doesn't really look and act like a normal mailing
list.
Putting aside the issues with formatting of messages which is
discussed
elsewhere in this thread, certainly it generates messages and accepts
replies and so technically it's a mailing list. But as a medium for
discussion which involves email, it simply doesn't work out. the
system
appears to either foster or encourage changes which result in the
delivered messages being less useful than messages from a mailing
list.
The fundamental problem is that web forums tend to make less use of
quoting. The end result is similar to top-posting, but in the other
direction. Instead of complete "context" that's primarily
useless, the
result is no context at all. So you have to browse the rest of the
thread in your email program (which thankfully is still possible) or
click over to the web site. Neither is ideal.
So, really, you've used it for a couple of days, have declared it
fine,
and then boldly declared "Fedora should replace mailing lists with
Discourse". But I've used it for a bit longer, and my experience has
simply been negative. The discourse system simply does not serve to
foster email-based discussion.
Yes, I've only used it for a few days - but I disagree with your
wholesale assumption regarding
context. There have been countless times when I've started reading a
topic mid discussion for
various reasons and I have no idea what the original point was. I
then either have to trudge through
my mail archives or go to the website and search through the entire
topic to understand what is going on.
IMO, it's easier to do that with discourse than with the mailing list.
I've never used Discourse other than to do a very quick perusal these
last few days when this came up. I am quite familiar with the forum
model however. How does Discourse handle posts you've already read in a
thread that's still active. With things like reddit or LWN, you get to
read it over and over and over again if you really want to see whats new
now. With my mail client, it's extremely easy and effective to put it
into threaded mode and highlight the unread (or filter out the already
read). With that, I can usually follow along very easily. Yes,
sometimes I need to go back in the thread to get context. But its rare
that I'll go back to a thread on a forum to find new comments later on
once I've read many already. That's like watching a movie, getting a
third of the way through it and realizing you've seen it before.
Now for historical review where a thread is dead, something like
Discourse would be great due to the cleanliness of not having repeated
context. But that's an entirely different use-case and not the primary one.
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Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 15:31 Anderson, Charles R wrote: > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 11:02:58AM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb wrote: > > > > > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me. > > > > > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part. > > > > > > > Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know. > > No. You are either completely misunderstanding the issue, or are > arrogantly choosing to ignore it. Your tone comes across as the > latter, but I apologize if I misconstrue your intent. > > Let me try to explain again. Different people prefer different > clients. Some people prefer text-only clients that have no capability > to render HTML. That's okay--MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail > Extenstions RFC 2045 and RFC 2046) provide a way to support both > text-only and HTML clients, called multipart/alternative in MIME. It > is up to the sender of the email to support MIME multipart/alternative > correctly by supplying meaningful content in two separate mail > attachments--text/plain for text-only clients, and text/html for Gmail > and other HTML-capable clients. If you are using Gmail you will only > see the HTML part. You need to see the text/plain part to see what > issues it has. > > To claim that your preference of email client, Gmail, "looks fine" and > then dismissing anyone else's issues as "a client issue" implies that > you don't care about people who use different clients. That is not a > way to garner support and reaching consensus for changing how the > Fedora Project communicates with its members. > I'm not an email expert by any means. What I said was that it works perfectly fine for me. If people have an issue with it they should file a bug or enhancement request with the discourse project. That way the issue could be addressed and everyone could benefit. > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 11:02:58AM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM Samuel Sieb wrote: > > > On 10/17/18 8:52 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > Again, I use gmail and things look perfectly fine for me. > > > > That's because gmail only shows the HTML part. > > > > Ah... so it's a client issue. Good to know. No. You are either completely misunderstanding the issue, or are arrogantly choosing to ignore it. Your tone comes across as the latter, but I apologize if I misconstrue your intent. Let me try to explain again. Different people prefer different clients. Some people prefer text-only clients that have no capability to render HTML. That's okay--MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail Extenstions RFC 2045 and RFC 2046) provide a way to support both text-only and HTML clients, called multipart/alternative in MIME. It is up to the sender of the email to support MIME multipart/alternative correctly by supplying meaningful content in two separate mail attachments--text/plain for text-only clients, and text/html for Gmail and other HTML-capable clients. If you are using Gmail you will only see the HTML part. You need to see the text/plain part to see what issues it has. To claim that your preference of email client, Gmail, "looks fine" and then dismissing anyone else's issues as "a client issue" implies that you don't care about people who use different clients. That is not a way to garner support and reaching consensus for changing how the Fedora Project communicates with its members. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Fedora should replace mailing lists with Discourse
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:48 AM Gerald B. Cox wrote: > > > > > The thing is, it doesn't matter. Discourse is *not* designed to >> support the types of discussions that do happen on these lists, nor is >> it designed to handle the load or the number of disparate >> conversations. > > > > I've experienced the switchover from mail lists to >> Discourse before with OpenMandriva, and asynchronous development >> discussions basically died. The OpenMandriva developers (myself >> included) rely on IRC and IRC meetings even more so than we did >> before, because Discourse is just awful for this. And OpenMandriva is >> a hundredth of the scale of Fedora development list. >> > > Can you please articulate that difference? As far as traffic is > concerned, that was > addressed earlier in the thread and I don't see how that is an issue. > >> >> Here is also a good link: https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298 ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
