Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
On Jan 14, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Andrei Herasimchuk wrote: On Jan 14, 2008, at 9:44 PM, Jim Drew wrote: But if I had seen even one hint of that technology showing its face into the mainstream in the past nearly two decades that I've dealt with DTP apps, I would consider amending my habits now. But it always seems to stay just over that mythical horizon. So I continue to overdo in order to not underdo, having no faith that a magical fix will every arrive. Is that kind of like waiting to buy a hybrid until all cars work on hydrogen? It might be like waiting to buy a hybrid until they are cost effective. At first, and for a long time, they are way more expensive to buy than traditional vehicles and the advantage is mythical feel- good stuff -- It's the right thing to do -- rather than anything concrete or monetary. Nah, that's no good. It's like being Vegan: Tofu tastes *way* better than meat! (Apologies to vegans out there. I've been reading Anthony Bourdain's The Cook's Tour lately.) Further, the mainstream cases are plenty fine with single spacing. And if you need proof of the rule showing its face then the fact web browsers already force single spacing regardless (because extra spacing is ignored in HTML markup) means it's a pointless habit to continue to propagate if you do any work in the mainstream of technology these days. Do browsers compress multiple spaces into one because they are trying to do the right thing, typographically, between sentences? Or do they do it because of algorithmic reasons, the assumption that multiple spaces of any number should compress to one. Don't try to convince me that browsers are being wise when they are being dumb, taking the simplest path to a solution that works right for the broadest number of cases. Sorry... I'm not buying your particular line of logic. When you're solidly bought into to opposite camp, I wouldn't expect you to. -- Jim Drew [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
A few of my favorite references on typography: -The Elements of Typographic Style Applied to the Web http://webtypography.net/ Based of the famous book by Robert Bringhurst. -I Love Typography http://ilovetypography.com/ According to its own author: articles on typography are rather bland and, although informative, do little to elicit feelings of wow! -TypeTester http://typetester.maratz.com/ The Typetester is an online application for comparison of the fonts for the screen. -A Comparison of Popular Online Fonts: Which Size and Type is Best? http://psychology.wichita.edu/surl/usabilitynews/41/onlinetext.htm An old study in which is examined some of the most commonly used fonts for differences in reading effectiveness, reading time, perceptions of font legibility, font attractiveness, and general preference. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=24248 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
On Jan 10, 2008, at 12:59 AM, Andrei Herasimchuk wrote: Adding extra spaces after periods is really a very bad habit formed when the large majority of corporate communication was ruled by technology that could only use monospaced fonts -- that is of course the typewriter, and the typewriter lasted a few generations, so it had plenty of time to entrench itself. Further, it's a habit that will wind up hurting you once the technology gets even better and renders type with even more sophistication, which is not that far off on the horizon quite frankly. I don't disagree that it's a habit that will be bad once the technology works right, and that it will be hard to break. But if I had seen even one hint of that technology showing its face into the mainstream in the past nearly two decades that I've dealt with DTP apps, I would consider amending my habits now. But it always seems to stay just over that mythical horizon. So I continue to overdo in order to not underdo, having no faith that a magical fix will every arrive. -- Jim Drew [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
On Jan 14, 2008, at 9:44 PM, Jim Drew wrote: But if I had seen even one hint of that technology showing its face into the mainstream in the past nearly two decades that I've dealt with DTP apps, I would consider amending my habits now. But it always seems to stay just over that mythical horizon. So I continue to overdo in order to not underdo, having no faith that a magical fix will every arrive. Is that kind of like waiting to buy a hybrid until all cars work on hydrogen? Further, the mainstream cases are plenty fine with single spacing. And if you need proof of the rule showing its face then the fact web browsers already force single spacing regardless (because extra spacing is ignored in HTML markup) means it's a pointless habit to continue to propagate if you do any work in the mainstream of technology these days. The only mainstream case one could make is using Microsoft Word, and even then, when documents are printed double spacing is horrendous given the high resolution of printed output. Sorry... I'm not buying your particular line of logic. -- Andrei Herasimchuk Principal, Involution Studios innovating the digital world e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] c. +1 408 306 6422 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
It probably is a reach to call typography an element of interaction design in the strictest sense, Jeff, but in the broad sense I think that interaction design has to consider any element that impacts understanding and confidence in a design interface. I agree with Maxim ... typography deals with visual appearance/representation readability (usability of text in some cases) ... and I consider the user's cognitive processes as an essential key to any interaction. I accept other interpretations as well, and I appreciate hearing them. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=24248 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
There are at least five different conversations in this thread. Which ones are you challenging? 1) Are there any studies about why Arial is used for web apps more than Verdana? 2) Are studies a valid approach to making typographic decisions? 3) Should one space or two follow a period? 4) In what ways does the digitial medium constrain our approach to typography? 5) What do the previous four topics have to do with interaction design? If you care about the broader community's answer to the fifth question, I'd recommend starting a new thread. This one, certainly this late in the thread, will be all but invisible to people who don't happen to care about font snobbery. // jeff . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=24248 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
Hi Jim, This kind of thing could probably be resolved more decisively over on the typophile.com forums, but what you're suggesting goes against everything I've learned about typography. There's a fine distinction between separating sentences and creating a gap that interrupts flow. Unless you're using a monospace font like Courier or Monaco, one space after a period should be plenty to create that separation. // jeff . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=24248 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
On Jan 10, 2008, at 12:59 AM, Andrei Herasimchuk wrote: (Next you should ask me about rivers and type color and how early DTP programs like Aldus PageMaker and Quark XPress basically ruined good typography in the magazine and publishing industry for years until InDesign and more sophisticated type engines came along and brought proper control of it back to the publishing world. Then you'll truly see the depths of my type geekery.) I got a few emails asking me for info on this. Here's a few articles with information that's a good start for people interested: http://designer-info.com/DTP/text_typography.htm http://www.graphic-design.com/DTG/bergsland/new_typography.html And for fun: http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/danger-of-the-desktop And a good place to start for people interested in the simple things: http://www.markboulton.co.uk/journal/comments/ five_simple_steps_to_better_typography/ (Be sure to read the whole series) -- Andrei Herasimchuk Principal, Involution Studios innovating the digital world e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] c. +1 408 306 6422 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
A great typography resource with a web focus is http://webtypography.net/ .. lots of great analysis and information about applying traditional typography practice to the web. On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:34:56, Jeff Seager [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Type is fascinating, both in its history and in the variety of its creative implementations. I've worked in media (mostly print) since I was 14 years old -- even longer if you count delivering newspapers -- and now that my hair is thin and gray, I own dozens of books on typography. I'd like to see a system that could redesign typography on the fly while still allowing end users on the Web the control they should have over local presentation. There are issues that will have to be addressed -- probably in the visual browsers or in the operating systems themselves, but maybe elsewhere. I don't think you can simply amend the UTF-8 specification to include new glyphs for ligatures, for example. But maybe, in the long run, you can. It's a brilliant and noble dream to enable more elegant typography on the Web, but I'm having a hard time visualizing just how it would be as practical as it would be beautiful. That could be a limitation in my own design, eh? Am I a typographic Luddite? I don't think so, because historically typographers have always struggled to accommodate the limitations of new media. Imagine the typographic sacrifices (and gains) made in the transition from monastic scribes to the Gutenberg press, or in transitioning Chinese and Japanese calligraphy to print. I think we can count on something being lost in the translation to this new medium, as well, and salvaging that something may be tough. But, as I said, I'd like to see it! What's the next step necessary to move from lamenting the problem of inelegant typography to resolving it? I can't imagine any better candidates for that job than a bunch of interaction designers. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=24248 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help -- Matt Nish-Lapidus work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] / www.bibliocommons.com -- personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] / www.nishlapidus.com *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
On Jan 10, 2008, at 1:34 PM, Jeff Seager wrote: I'd like to see a system that could redesign typography on the fly while still allowing end users on the Web the control they should have over local presentation. There are issues that will have to be addressed -- probably in the visual browsers or in the operating systems themselves, but maybe elsewhere. I don't think you can simply amend the UTF-8 specification to include new glyphs for ligatures, for example. But maybe, in the long run, you can. The only real practical way to attack this problem is with the upcoming product segment of eBooks, like Amazon's Kindle. But it might only be worth doing once the screen or display resolution reaches print resolution. To try and solve it sooner might actually create more problems than it solves to be honest, unless discipline was strictly adhered to not and let the core fundamentals of typography be altered or countered due to temporary technological limitations. Further, the reason why you'd want to tackle it with eBooks and not the web has in large part to due with a more controlled linear environment to achieve the goal of user spec'd type. The web with the browser has largely become a structured layout environment where content is nonlinear. The amount of adjustment required to make type both elegant and readable while still user controlled requires far more adjustments than possible in a structured layout environment. Structured layout requires a designer for a reason: not everyone is built to do it or understand how to make it work elegantly given the large number of variables and adjustments that have to be made with every change. You can't just change the font size and expect to have everything work based on rules with a different font size. It simply doesn't work like that and never will. But, as I said, I'd like to see it! What's the next step necessary to move from lamenting the problem of inelegant typography to resolving it? I can't imagine any better candidates for that job than a bunch of interaction designers. Sorry to be a wet noodle here, but there's no way interaction designers are going to solve this problem unless they (as a field, collectively or otherwise) take it upon themselves to learn type, color and composition as a core competency. And to do so would force the issue that they are more than just interaction designers and we're back to discussing job titles yet again. Not a problem for me since I've never considered myself an interaction designer. I've always been an interface designer, someone who has to know graphic design, information design *and* interaction design to get the job done. 8^) -- Andrei Herasimchuk Principal, Involution Studios innovating the digital world e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] c. +1 408 306 6422 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
Well, Andrei, I've thought about this on and off for about a day now (I really must get a life) and -- subtracting my ego from the equation -- I do agree with your scathing criticism of that study. I had liked it because it generally confirmed my own subjective impressions and experience, which also are unscientific but based on many years as a fan and a user of good typography in print media -- and several years of experience assisting people with visual (and other) disabilities. Mea culpa. So back to the original question, now that we've savaged this study: Are there valid studies/discussions of this topic available? Benoit may still want to know. I've found these, for our further consideration: # Bringhurst's book excerpted online at http://webtypography.net/ # http://www.webaim.org/techniques/fonts/ # http://www.wilsonweb.com/wmt6/html-email-fonts.htm (here, especially, some of the examples call attention to Andrei's points about line-length and other results of inexpert testing ... if the examples shown are an indication of what was tested, 12-point Arial and 12-point Verdana cannot be reasonably compared using the same column width because the optimum line length is different for each) # http://www.maxkiesler.com/index.php/weblog/comments/the_web_20_big_font_controversy/ All these, including the study from Wichita, have value in focusing our attention on the way we use typography. If we apply our own critical thinking skills, we can probably distill all this into a better understanding. And maybe even design a better study of our own, if we're so inclined. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=24248 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
On Jan 7, 2008, at 3:45 PM, Andrei Herasimchuk wrote: It's similar to the problem that happened with typewriters. The lack or true typesetting and kerning between letterforms created the need to add multiple spaces behind periods to breakup the copy to make it more readable, to the degree that now breaking people of that technological habit has been difficult for those in certain age ranges that learned the rule. The rule is now no longer needed given typewriters have been replaced with devices that allow for more accurate typesetting. I'd buy into this if I saw any indication that applications tended to put anything but the same size space at the end of a sentence as between words. But they don't seem to. But maybe InDesign does. I know many DTP apps have the ability to dynamically shift the width of spaces in justified text -- and the spacing between letters, too -- to improve letter packing or other mechanisms, so assuming that the end of a sentence can actually be detected with reasonable fidelity, it wouldn't be hard to provide extra width between sentences. But until I see a whole lot more apps doing it automatically, including browsers, the only way to ensure that sentences make themselves visually separated for improved chunking and readability seems to be to do it manually. (Or to stop caring. Nope, can't manage that.) -- Jim Drew [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
For me, perceived legibility is important because I serve users with visual impairments that range from peripheral vision loss to total blindness. Some of them use screen magnifiers, which can be a PITA to navigate with. Any slight legibility advantage for them translates to less magnification and an experience that's more like yours and mine. Perceived attractiveness matters less to me, but I think the impressions of the people studied might be important for some designers, marketing people and the like. The fonts included in the study are still among the most-used online fonts, even five years later, so that seems relevant too. Less than half of the study has any merit from my point of view, but those bits may be worth knowing. Would a larger sampling be more valid? Sure. Based on some experience with low-vision users, I don't think the perceived legibility results would change much unless we added another font designed specifically for people with impaired vision. As far as I know, that font doesn't yet exist. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=24248 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
[IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
For a better reading experience: *Arial or Verdana?* - If Arial is smaller than Verdana, why do we use arial for the majority of web apps? - If there any studies or facts about that? Comments? -- Benoît Meunier +1 514-574-3142 www.benoitmeunier.info *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
On Jan 7, 2008 8:43 AM, Benoît Meunier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
- If Arial is smaller than Verdana, why do we use arial for the majority
of
web apps?
Hi Benoît,
Many websites have screen real-estate issues. Arial is a narrower font than
Verdana, so using Arial permits a greater number of characters in the same
area width at the same font size. Arial is also something of a habit for
many web developers so simple inertia carries it. Consider also Tahoma and
Geneva if you are searching for a readable sans-serif font.
One of the more challenging things to do in web typography is to trust your
eyes. There are so many opinions out there. When creating a site template or
stylesheet, try it out with several of the different browser fonts and see
which looks best. Ask others to evaluate which of two or three well-realized
choices they prefer.
This page is a good resource of which fonts are currently available on
common operating systems and browsers:
http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html
Whichever font is prefered, be sure and use CSS callouts that include
secondary and default fonts. That will make sure that site visitors with
various operating systems see something agreeable. For instance:
p.lovely {font: normal 1em Tahoma, Geneva, sans-serif;}
I hope this is helpful. All the best,
Michael Micheletti
*Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah*
February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA
Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
I noticed that Google uses Arial in majority of webapps, while Microsoft use Verdana. Another thing is that recently Microsoft has changed font for search results @ live.com from Verdana to Arial. As to me, Arial looks softer... -- Maxim *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
On Jan 7, 2008, at 8:43 AM, Benoît Meunier wrote: For a better reading experience: *Arial or Verdana?* Arial is a bastardized version of Helvetica created because those in charge of the operating system didn't want to pay the license fee that would be required to put a proper font on their computer. (Both Apple and Microsoft are guilty of this.) My general preference for specifying the fonts for anything on a web site is generally: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Sans Serif. In that order. Even as a bastardized version, Arial is still more readable and flexible for web projects that require heavy amounts of copy. There's a long history behind Tahoma and Verdana that I won't go into. You can Google that. But Tahoma was made to give Windows95 a new look and feel for the screen, back when screen resolutions and such were much lower than they are today. (At the time, Apple had Chicago and Espy, and Microsoft was looking to create their own aesthetic to compete.) Tahoma was basically designed for 9px, 10px, 11px and 12x sizes only. (Maybe 13px as well, I forget off the top of my head.) And by designed, I mean pixel for pixel design, not outlines and curves like PostScript or TrueType fonts. It was hinted specifically for screen pixels at those specific sizes. Verdana was created as a variation of Tahoma for web work because Microsoft seemed to want the same aesthetic but needed a font that could be read with dense body copy. The web was just booming at that time and Tahoma looks like junk when used as body copy because it was designed mostly to be labels for dialog boxes. It has a much too wide feel for long stretches of copy. As such, Verdana is certainly more readable as body copy, but again, it was designed for certain small screen sizes, 9px through 12px. Try using Verdana as a 20px headline and it looks like crap. So, if you all you care about is body copy set specifically at 10px or 11px, then Verdana is fine. The moment you want to use it for headlines and such, you're out of luck and will need to specify a different headline font. I tend to specify Helvetiva Neue and Arial so I don't have to worry about the issue. Arial is tolerable and with ClearType turned on with bigger screens, in my opinion it looks far better than Verdana ever will. - If there any studies or facts about that? You don't use studies or facts to choose a typeface. That would be like using a study that claims red is always the best color to use for company backgrounds. -- Andrei Herasimchuk Principal, Involution Studios innovating the digital world e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] c. +1 408 306 6422 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
On Jan 7, 2008, at 11:30 AM, Russell Wilson wrote: But isn't a serif font more readable at 10px/12px for blocks of text? Only if the output medium has the resolution to handle the detail. Computer screens are still vastly inferior with regard to resolution to paper printouts in this regard, and will be so for probably another five to ten years at least. In the short term, sans serif is better to go for smaller type and smaller blocks of copy. (Smaller means less than 14px/pt.) -- Andrei Herasimchuk Principal, Involution Studios innovating the digital world e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] c. +1 408 306 6422 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
On Jan 7, 2008, at 2:16 PM, Callie Neylan wrote: Not true. Sometimes you do refer to type readability studies. Like when you're designing typefaces for highway signs. And for people with visual impairments. The highway sign is an example of validation, not in using a study to literally *choose* the font itself. That's an important distinction. In other words, the testing done on the highway signs was *very specific* to the font designed, and tested to make sure it satisfied the requirement of legibility at distances, in fog, in rain, with headlights hitting it, fast speeds, etc. That's vastly different than using a study to determine what font you should use for a web site. Typographers spend a massive amount of time testing the legibility of their work. It's built into their DNA and their process of work. In that regard, they are doing that to validate their design for its intended purpose. But what they don't do is what is done in that linked study, which is a backwards way of testing font usefulness. -- Andrei Herasimchuk Principal, Involution Studios innovating the digital world e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] c. +1 408 306 6422 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
Jared wrote: But isn't a serif font more readable at 10px/12px for blocks of text? Andrei wrote: Only if the output medium has the resolution to handle the detail... This isn't entirely true. I would vote with confidence that serif typefaces (select few) read more efficiently than sans serif in the context of body text or paragraphs, no matter what medium (digital display or print). The addition of thinner columns opposed to wider is an additional factor as well but disregard that for now. The mix-up between serif and sans serif typefaces (for body text) in today's digital world is a battle between conscious visual aesthetics and subconscious reading comprehension. Sans serif tends to look cleaner and slicker than serif typefaces when the type display is degraded. However, this doesn't necessarily mean serif typefaces are less effective. My analysis on this subject (working with 8th grade reading levels in Military software products) leads me to believe that when these two typeface (types) are tested against each other in the context of body text or paragraphs... users are often confused with what is visually pleasing to them, overall, rather than what reads most efficiently (i.e. visual appearance is weighed evenly with readability). So because both are readable due to users capturing shapes of words rather than each individual character, they tend to lean toward sans serif being better because it's overall appearance seems to have more integrity (or is just preferred for whatever reason), even though they struggle slightly more with comprehension (subconsciously). This is also a reason not to blindly depend on user's preferences to make design decisions, but that's another thread. Easiest test, make two identical paragraphs (alias or anti-alias), one with a serif font and san serif font... then read them to yourself. I think you'll find serif more effortless to read and comprehend. -- Dane Storrusten Microsoft Surface User Experience Design 818.308.6557 We are hiring! *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Arial vs Vernada?
Not true. Sometimes you do refer to type readability studies. Like when you're designing typefaces for highway signs. And for people with visual impairments. .c Callie Neylan, MFA | Visual + Interaction Design | NEYLAN DESIGN COMPANY | T 206 718 9909 | F 206 400 1664 | E [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jan 7, 2008, at 10:53 AM, Andrei Herasimchuk wrote: - If there any studies or facts about that? You don't use studies or facts to choose a typeface. That would be like using a study that claims red is always the best color to use for company backgrounds. *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
