[slim] Squeezebox 3 and FLAC - 24bit96Khz or not?
Hi, Just recently I've been buying a few High Resolution items, these are mostly encoded as 24bit96khz FLAC files. My Slimdevices Squeezebox 3 plays them back perfectly and they sound great...but I was wondering if it was performing any sort of conversion (to 16bit44.1khz perhaps) before playing them back or whether I was hearing the full 24bit96khz file? Thanks for you help... Mark -- Morbius In my life, why do I smile At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye? Morbius's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5328 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=86015 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Time for a speculation thread...
Muele;614844 Wrote: 4. Marketing. Sell the damn stuff. Its actually good products. Afordable whole house audio ranging from cheap bathroom quality audio to audiophile quality-gear. That is unique. But Logitech chooses to just show a boring list of anonomous porducts on their website. 5. If the Touch cannot support the server decently, sell a server. Something like squeezeplug. Plug it in: network, usb-disk and power, ready to go. Logitech-branded!! Easy way to point to a network share is of course also mandatory, but it adds to the geekyness. Plug and play is the way to go. Marketing : I have never seen a single squeezebox product in a shop in Belgium/France/Luxembourg. I have seen SONOS a couple of time tough but not so many because they were out of stock. Squeezebox, noone knows in the usual electronic/hifi/music shops. Perhaps there is a market to develop ... item 5. definitely true. I like Squeezebox but I would never recommend it to anyone because of the complexity to setup a server [that just works]. -- reniera reniera's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40705 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85982 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Screen Font - can it be changed?
Hi, Is there anyway of changing the text colour on the newer touch based players? When I'm turning the centre knob on the Radio its hard to see which line is highlighted from arms length, as it just makes the font larger and its not always the line in the centre of the screen. It would be more visually helpful if it was a different colour, is this possible? Cheers -- cparker www.spicefly.com - Spicefly SugarCube - Taking Squeezebox and MusicIP to the next level. A hassle free non-stop journey through your music library using MusicIP. Plus the finest MusicIP installation guides, enhanced MIP Interface and SpyGlass MIP the Automated MusicIP Headless Installer. cparker's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2083 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=86016 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] [ANNOUNCE] SqueezeCommander 0.9 for Android
How about voice control :) Is there a way to get back to you last position under My Music folders? eg I chose Artist Killers and play an album. Now i'd like to quickly get back to the Killers folder without navigating through everything again. Is that possible? -- dave77 Boom - Controller - Touch - Radio - SBS 7.5 on Acer Revo R3610 Win7 dave77's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=26269 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=69352 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] [ANNOUNCE] SqueezeCommander 0.9 for Android
dave77;614862 Wrote: How about voice control :) Is there a way to get back to you last position under My Music folders? eg I chose Artist Killers and play an album. Now i'd like to quickly get back to the Killers folder without navigating through everything again. Is that possible? Equally I also find this frustrating. Every time I navigate to an album and select a song, If I want to return to that album I have to start from the beginning each time. (MusicIP please) -- CrankyTom CrankyTom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=44357 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=69352 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Squeezebox 3 and FLAC - 24bit96Khz or not?
Streaming to SB3 is downsampled to 24/48. -- bhaagensen bhaagensen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7418 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=86015 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
I agree with TerryS on this (noting PL's point about dither). I don't think the evidence for the roughness of 16 bit CD sound is a subtle audio point. Listen to any recording of a string quartet when they play a quiet passage and the roughness of the sound is perfectly obvious. On some recordings, where they have recorded at a rather lower level than usual, the sound can be quite dreadful. A 'good' example of this is the Caliope recordings of the Beethoven Quartets played by the Talisch. The LPs sound fine - good, warm string tone; the CDs are so bad that you might have difficulty identifying the source as a string quartet. So I'm all for 24 bit delivered to the end user. I'm also for higher sampling rates. One of the other failings of CD, compared to LP, is the poor quality of transients. Without over-sampling, CD delivers a frequency response flat to ~22 kHz and then a cliff edge. Imagine the filter you'd design to achieve that, and then consider the phase/frequency distortion that would occur. I doubt over-sampling removes these phase artefacts. -- Cape11 Cape11's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13763 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85879 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
Cape11;614876 Wrote: I agree with TerryS on this (noting PL's point about dither). I don't think the evidence for the roughness of 16 bit CD sound is a subtle audio point. Listen to any recording of a string quartet when they play a quiet passage and the roughness of the sound is perfectly obvious. On some recordings, where they have recorded at a rather lower level than usual, the sound can be quite dreadful. A 'good' example of this is the Caliope recordings of the Beethoven Quartets played by the Talisch. The LPs sound fine - good, warm string tone; the CDs are so bad that you might have difficulty identifying the source as a string quartet. So I'm all for 24 bit delivered to the end user. I have the Calliope Integrale des Quatuors by the Talich Qt but have not listened to it recently. I have not in the past noticed any issue with the sound quality (other than noting that it is not a great recording to start off with). Can you point me to where you find the sound so rough (3rd movement of the 135?). I note that the Gramophone reviewer commented on the first CD issue of this set (March 1987)http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/March%201987/69/815793/BEETHOVEN.+STRING+QUARTETS.+Talich++Quartet+(Petr+Messiereur,+Jan+Kvapil,+vns+Jan#header-logo The recordings which, like those of the Vêgh, seemed a bit bottom heavy, are much less aggressive than the DG for Melos and want the bloom and richness of the EMI set. All the same, the sound is more firmly defined and better-focused than on LP and eminently natural. The sound does not call attention to itself, the instruments are well placed and the timbre truthful: in fact, one quickly forgets about it and loses one's self in the music. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85879 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Can SB sort albums by release date?
Really? Then why does it have the options under 'Interface' for long and short date formats (DD/MM/ etc.)? Not saying that you're wrong, just seems rather odd to me if that's the case. -- stevied123 stevied123's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=41204 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85999 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
see also http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2550 The Talich traversal of the Beethovens originally came out in the dying days of analogue. I loved them then and I love them even more in their CD incarnation, which adds transparency and bite to sound that always was clear and impactful. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85879 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Can SB sort albums by release date?
stevied123;614893 Wrote: Really? Then why does it have the options under 'Interface' for long and short date formats (DD/MM/ etc.)? Not saying that you're wrong, just seems rather odd to me if that's the case. Aren't the long and short date formats options related to the screensaver that shows the current date and/or time? -- garym garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85999 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Can SB sort albums by release date?
garym is correct that those are SB clock formats, not formats for the date/year tag. You can probably achieve what you want by creating an ALBUMSORT and/or ARTISTSORT tag (depending on which browsing behavior you want to change) that combines the different tag elements so that SBS sorts them the way you want. It is easy to construct such tags using mp3tag. So, for example, your ALBUMSORT tag would be composed of ARTIST + YEAR + MONTH + ALBUM or if you are already using ARTISTSORT to deal with (lastname, firstname) sorting, it would be ARTISTSORT + YEAR + MONTH + ALBUM -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85999 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Can SB sort albums by release date?
Thanks for all the replies, I'll take a look at that suggestion as it's something I really want to integrate. -- stevied123 stevied123's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=41204 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85999 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
Well, I simply speak as I find. Equipment: Loudspeakers: ATC SCM100 asl Preamp: Chord CPA2800 DAC Chord DSC1500E Deck SME20.2 with series 5 arm Cartridge: Lyra. Squeezebox. (Expensive, yes, but then there's little reason to change the system, and it's already done 15 years of good service). Sample any part of the Talisch CDs esp. when quiet and it sounds rough - opening of 131 will do. Go to the LPs and the sound is much better - they really are string instruments! -- Cape11 Cape11's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13763 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85879 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
Phil Leigh;614886 Wrote: That whole filter thing is indeed history, thanks to oversampling which moves the filter way out of harms way...unless you think 384kHz and higher is still an issue?Well is it? Over sampling means there's no need for an filter, but my point was that the frequency response is shaped like a cliff edge, and over-ssampling can do nothing to remedy that under-lying condition. I remain concerned about possible phase distortion into the audio band which would have a deleterious effect on the leading edge of percusiion instruments. And that's what I miss on CD (the clink on the triangle when first hit, attack of piano notes) but get on LP. I would think 192 ksps would suffice, which is 'sort of' the sampling equivalent of SACD. If all these effects have been nailed, why is there almost universal agreement that SACD is better than CD? -- Cape11 Cape11's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13763 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85879 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
Cape11;614910 Wrote: Well is it? Over sampling means there's no need for a filter, but my point was that the frequency response is shaped like a cliff edge, and over-ssampling can do nothing to remedy that under-lying condition. I remain concerned about possible phase distortion into the audio band which would have a deleterious effect on the leading edge of percusiion instruments. And that's what I miss on CD (the clink on the triangle when first hit, attack of piano notes) but get on LP. I would think 192 ksps would suffice, which is 'sort of' the sampling equivalent of SACD. If all these effects have been nailed, why is there almost universal agreement that SACD is better than CD? There is almost universal misunderstanding. I'll leave to one side the fact that large parts of the upper spectrum of SACD's are full of noise... thankfully we can't hear it :-) As I keep saying, SACD playback is not inherently superior to redbook... in terms of what we can hear. That's the whole point of the Meyer/Moran paper. They inserted a redbook adc-dac chain in the midst of an SACD playback chain. Nobody could hear it! (this isn't the basis for my argument, which I've been developing for years - it just neatly backs it up). What CAN BE better is the mastering job done to produce the SACD (sometimes - there are some pretty ropey SACD's out there too...). Don't be fooled into comparing the redbook and sacd layers of a hybrid disk - they often don't use the same master, rendering the comparison pointless. Of course, far be it for me to suggest that record companies would deliberately make the expensive SACD layer sound better :-) To reiterate, it's NOT the playback technology, it's the mastering. Redbook can sound identical to SACD. By the way, that frequency response cliff exists on many SACD's too... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF x-dacv3/x-10/x-psu(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85879 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
Well we're both arguing by repetition, so we'll have to agree to differ. -- Cape11 Cape11's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13763 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85879 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] [ANNOUNCE] SqueezeCommander 0.9 for Android
How can I buy SC for my Android tablet? Every site I have been to wants a cell phone. This is not a phone. -- vs27 vs27's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=41655 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=69352 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
dsdreamer;614831 Wrote: It is not a feeling, but a reasoned conjecture. Difficult to measure per se without sticking electrodes in people's brains. The non-linear and time variant nature of the human ear's response to sound pressure waves is, however, well-established. The following is not a scientific paper, either, but you may find the following discussion interesting. http://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_MP_White_Paper.pdf It is not well established people can hear any of the problems that Ayre marketing paper talks about. These funny impulses that need the magic Apodizing show pre or post-echo in music material and ONLY happen above 20kHz. So these fancy pics tell it is pre-echo but leave out the fact it is happening at low volume and high frequency. Now when you create a 44.1 version of your hires material with resampling that doesn´t produce pre-ringing and you magic filter it afterwards you even harm the signal. These filters are non-linear also. Benchmark Media is another audio manufacturer that clearly states this pre-rining is a non-issue to them. Of caus these fancy graphs look shocking! -- Wombat Transporter (modded) - RG142 - Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks - Sommer SPK240 - self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85879 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Question about Tiny SBS
I am using Tiny server at times these days. I have a premium music service subscription to JazzRadio.com. Because JazzRadio is not in the Squeezebox Gallery, in order for me to stream high level (192kps) music streams to the Squeezebox I have to get the url at JazzRadio.com and cut and paste it to favorites. There is no problem when using SBS or mysb.com, but Tiny does not have the web server to paste urls. Is there a way to paste these premium URLs into Tiny SBS as I do with regular SBS? Thank you. -- Ikabob Ikabob Squeezebox Touch w/SBS; SAE Amplifier;Marantz Pre-amp;ESS Heil Speakers(main listening speakers plus various additional speakers). Multiple players: SqueezeBooms,SqueezeRadios; Services:Rhapsody; Sky.com; JazzRadio.com services; Ipeng remote controller. Ikabob's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32088 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=86022 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
Phil Leigh;614911 Wrote:
That's the whole point of the Meyer/Moran paper. They inserted a redbook
adc-dac chain in the midst of an SACD playback chain. Nobody could hear
it!
Hi Phil - got a link to that paper? I googled for it, and it's
apparently generated loads of controversy ('my google search'
(http://www.google.com/search?num=50hl=enlr=q=Meyer+Moran+CD+audiobtnG=Searchaq=faqi=aql=oq=)),
which IMO is all to the good, but I'd be curious to read the paper
itself.
BTW, as I remember, the CD audio format was chosen, in part, to be able
to fit an entire LP onto a single data tape. No, I can't find a
reference, but I vaguely remember a good discussion of the process to
determine/decide on this new digital format in one of the IEEE mags in
the early '80s. Do you remember this being one of the factors? Or am I
totally misremembering?
--
bobkoure
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Re: [slim] Question about Tiny SBS
You can edit the favorites.opml file on the Touch, as described in this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85913page=2 If you're on Windows then WinSCP would be a good tool to use for this task. It may also be a good idea to stop TinySBS before editing favorites.opml. -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=86022 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
bobkoure;614932 Wrote:
Hi Phil - got a link to that paper? I googled for it, and it's
apparently generated loads of controversy ('my google search'
(http://www.google.com/search?num=50hl=enlr=q=Meyer+Moran+CD+audiobtnG=Searchaq=faqi=aql=oq=)),
which IMO is all to the good, but I'd be curious to read the paper
itself.
BTW, as I remember, the CD audio format was chosen, in part, to be able
to fit an entire LP onto a single data tape. No, I can't find a
reference, but I vaguely remember a good discussion of the process to
determine/decide on this new digital format in one of the IEEE mags in
the early '80s. Do you remember this being one of the factors? Or am I
totally misremembering?
Courtesy of Wombat:
http://hlloyge.hl.funpic.de/wp-conte...p-inserted.pdf
wasn't the cd supposed to be long enough to hold a particular Beethoven
symphony? (this might be a myth)
--
Phil Leigh
You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF
x-dacv3/x-10/x-psu(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1
system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner,
Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber 8TC Speaker
Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.
Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85
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Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
Phil Leigh;614936 Wrote: Courtesy of Wombat: http://hlloyge.hl.funpic.de/wp-conte...p-inserted.pdf I have that link to that paper from Hydrogenaudio.org On there are similar discussions running, there no one can do esotheric claims without backing it up btw. It is violating the rules then :) -- Wombat Transporter (modded) - RG142 - Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks - Sommer SPK240 - self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85879 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Time for a speculation thread...
I think the missing link is a decent server. The item most people have most trouble with is the server software on their PC - esp as most don't want to leave it on 24/7. Tiny SBS works just about OK in the Touch, but IMHO a full specification dedicated mini server (such as a Vortexbox appliance) running a full version of SBS badged and supported as Logitech is a major missing link. Setting up your own NAS or mini-server is simply too geeky for most people - it needs to be plug and play. Ideally it should have an Intel x86 processor, a simple Linux interface and a single 1TB hard drive. Price it at under $300 / £200 and you would have a real winner - esp if marketed in a bundle with the Touch. The Vortexbox is nearly there, but it needs to be sold and supported by Logitech if you are going to get most retailers and customers to buy it. Just my 2p! -- TheLastMan Matt http://www.last.fm/user/MJL-UK *SqueezeBoxes:* SB Duet (Controller + two receivers) *Server:* Synology DS107+ NAS (with firmware 2.3-1157) running Squeezebox Server 7.5.3 on Synology Package Manager *Network:* Netgear DG834GT ADSL modem/router, 2 x Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 as access points *Livingroom:* Receiver into Naim 42/110 amp, BW CM2 speakers *Kitchen:* Receiver into Denon DM37 mini-system, BW 686 speakers *Study:* Linn LP12, Naim 72/Hi-cap/Headline. TheLastMan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16021 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85982 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
Phil Leigh;614936 Wrote: Courtesy of Wombat: http://hlloyge.hl.funpic.de/wp-conte...p-inserted.pdf wasn't the cd supposed to be long enough to hold a particular Beethoven symphony? (this might be a myth) Yes the ninth. I have no idea whether it's true, but I have heard various versions. The most entertaining (and improbable) has it that the stipulation was made by Mr Sony's wife. -- adamdea adamdea's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37603 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85879 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
I recall reading an article in recent years celebrating an anniversary of the CD format. In it they discussed the facts and myths surrounding the format's development, including why 74 minutes and so forth. If I remember correctly, they even spoke with members of the team or the key developer. I'll have to see if I can jog the appropriate memory cells and see if I can locate the article. -- maggior Rich - Setup: 2 SB3s, 4 Booms, 1 Duet, 1 Receiver, 1 Touch, iPeng on iPod Touch. SuSE 11.0 Server running SqueezeBoxServer 7.5.0, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave. Current library stats: 33,696 songs, 2,720 albums, 499 artists. http://www.last.fm/user/maggior maggior's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9080 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85879 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
maggior;614970 Wrote: If I remember correctly, they even spoke with members of the team or the key developer. I'll have to see if I can jog the appropriate memory cells and see if I can locate the article. It would be really nice if it's confirmed by somebody at Sony or Philips. In the meantime, here's another interesting version: http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/tag/norio-ohga/ -- sebp 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/sebp) sebp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11768 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85879 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Time for a speculation thread...
TheLastMan;614946 Wrote:
Ideally it should have an Intel x86 processor, a simple Linux interface
and a single 1TB hard drive. Price it at under $300 / £200 and you would
have a real winner - esp if marketed in a bundle with the Touch. The
Vortexbox is nearly there, but it needs to be sold and supported by
Logitech if you are going to get most retailers and customers to buy
it.
Would any of your non-technical non audiophile friends or relatives who
don't own a Squeezebox today pay $299 for a Touch plus $299 for a 1TB
server box ?
IMHO, the solution with the Touch which have a built-in server is the
best solution if they want to target the non-technical non geeky users
and local music, two boxes means two CPU's duplicate memory and thus
makes the solution too expensive. Honestly, I'm not sure any of my non
geeky friends would even get a $299 device with working built-in
server.
I think the Radio together with mysqueezebox.com is the best option
available for the mass market, it has the right price and can with
mysqueezebox.com be used for online music without a local server. It
just needs mysqueezebox.com to be a bit more reliable than it has been
during the last years.
A separate server box gets more interesting when we start to talk about
a multi room solution, but then we are back on the geeky side again.
--
erland
Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
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Re: [slim] Time for a speculation thread...
Muele;614844 Wrote:
What do you think Logitech should do to keep the product alive and
profitable?
They should just decide on a long term strategy and try to work towards
that in their marketing and development plans. I've often felt that
there doesn't seem to exist any clear strategy for the products. I
completely understand that they don't want to make the strategy public
but based on the development during the last years I have some doubts
if there even is an internal strategy within Logitech.
If they like to target the mass market they need to stop listen to
people in this community. Yes, I know this sounds wrong, but when you
think about it you realize that most people in this community aren't in
the mass market segment. We want more functionality, we want more
options, we want better audio quality and most of us are prepared to
pay for it, the problem is that we are too few so it won't make the
product profitable and people in the mass market segment have different
interests, they want cheap products, simplicity and don't care much
about advanced features and audio quality.
--
erland
Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
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Re: [slim] Time for a speculation thread...
Look at what Sony did: Best Buy had a huge display but the stuff didn't sell because it stinks. Logitech needs a WORKING display kit that shows how it works, including a PC/router/Touch/Boom and a player attached to a generic stereo. This should include in-store demos as well as a self-guided tour on the PC. The display should stress your computer/router/stereo here and point out the higher quality audio available. (Face it, since Apple is selling ATV for $99, their player is really cheaper than SB and works with iTunes which everyone uses despite it's shortcomings.) iTunes integration could be improved by having SBS periodically scan the Automatically add to iTunes folder as well as the purchased music in iTunes. Pandora and other services could also be part of the demo. Push the internet radio: most of the younger demographic are already eating this up. Logitech needs also to develop/buy control and playback apps for iPhone/Android and provide them free to hardware player buyers and stress the remote streaming possibilities. Free Your Music by not having to decide what to carry with you is a powerful argument. The display needs to be in THE MUSIC/CD department, not the arcane and ill-defined hardware department. p -- pski real stereo doesn't just wake the neighbors, it -enrages- them.. It is truly the Golden Age of Wireless pski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15574 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85982 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Time for a speculation thread...
erland;615015 Wrote: Would any of your non-technical non audiophile friends or relatives who don't own a Squeezebox today pay $299 for a Touch plus $299 for a 1TB server box ? Well I have three non-technical non audiophile friends who have bought into Sonos at £600 / $900 dollars for a single player! They mostly use online music services but two use their PCs with the Sonos software installed and complain that they have to leave their PC on to play from their music libraries. There are plenty of people *are* prepared to pay $600 for networked music players. What they want is a simple reliable system that works 24/7. A Touch / Server bundle would do that for them and give them a lot more than they would get from Sonos. -- TheLastMan Matt http://www.last.fm/user/MJL-UK *SqueezeBoxes:* SB Duet (Controller + two receivers) *Server:* Synology DS107+ NAS (with firmware 2.3-1157) running Squeezebox Server 7.5.3 on Synology Package Manager *Network:* Netgear DG834GT ADSL modem/router, 2 x Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 as access points *Livingroom:* Receiver into Naim 42/110 amp, BW CM2 speakers *Kitchen:* Receiver into Denon DM37 mini-system, BW 686 speakers *Study:* Linn LP12, Naim 72/Hi-cap/Headline. TheLastMan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16021 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85982 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Time for a speculation thread...
pski;615034 Wrote: Logitech needs a WORKING display kit that shows how it works, including a PC/router/Touch/Boom and a player attached to a generic stereo. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me. It tells the customer he needs all that gear just to get a radio to play a single note. It's like putting big orange safety warning stickers on a kids' toy and expecting anyone to buy it. I think someone at Logitech has figured out that the Squeezebox thin client concept just isn't a mass market product. It may be profitable now that they've pulled most of the development and QA staff off of the project, but I don't think Logitech is likely to ramp up marketing or development again. A revamped Touch that can run the server with much better performance and stability may make sense. Even though the Touch is relatively new, it was in beta testing for a long time and the hardware design and prototyping undoubtedly took a while before that. The design is now years old, so it's conceivable that they could produce a much more powerful machine for the same price today. To me, that's the only new Squeezebox product that would make any sense at all. -- JJZolx JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85982 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Question about Tiny SBS
I don't use either mysb.com or TinySBS, but aren't favorites supposed to be synced, so that if you enter one at mysb.com it should eventually appear within TinySBS? -- JJZolx JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=86022 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Time for a speculation thread...
JJZolx;615039 Wrote: That doesn't sound like a good idea to me. It tells the customer he needs all that gear just to get a radio to play a single note. It's like putting big orange safety warning stickers on a kids' toy and expecting anyone to buy it. I think someone at Logitech has figured out that the Squeezebox thin client approach just isn't a mass market product. It may be profitable now that they've pulled most of the development and QA staff off of the project, but I don't think Logitech is likely to ramp up marketing or development again. A revamped Touch that can run the server with much better performance and stability may make sense. Even though the Touch is relatively new, it was in beta testing for a long time and the hardware design and prototyping undoubtedly took a while before that. The design is now years old, so it's conceivable that they could produce a much more powerful machine for the same price today. To me, that's the only new Squeezebox product that would make any sense at all. So when I see a Touch or a Radio at Best Buy and it doesn't do a thing but turn-on how do I know what it does? DUH? The issue is that most people ALREADY have the other stuff. Which hand do you use? P -- pski real stereo doesn't just wake the neighbors, it -enrages- them.. It is truly the Golden Age of Wireless pski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15574 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85982 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Time for a speculation thread...
pski;615050 Wrote: So when I see a Touch or a Radio at Best Buy and it doesn't do a thing but turn-on how do I know what it does? DUH? The issue is that most people ALREADY have the other stuff. Nothing in their marketing has a single reference to using the player without a server. Of course that's my opinion and you could be right but show me. The product category of internet radio is becoming more common and well known, so you can place Radios in boxes on shelves with no need for a live demo. They'll sell a bazillion of them to people who don't have any desire to ever rip a CD. Online streaming of radio and music service been the overwhelming focus of development for the last few years. The thin client SB with no speakers is a lost cause. It was a good product for a mail order only company with a handful of employees. -- JJZolx JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85982 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
Most of the tests were done using a pair of highly regarded, smooth-measuring full-range loudspeakers in a rural listening room with an ambient noise floor of about 19 dBA SPL, all electronics on (see Fig. 2). This vagueness about the equipment being used is a bit of a concern, but I managed to find out from another source that: The playback equipment in this system consisted of an Adcom GTP-450 preamp and a Carver M1.5t power amplifier. Speaker cables were 8 feet of generic 12-gauge stranded wire; the line-level connecting cables were garden-variety. Three different players were used: a Pioneer DV-563A universal player, a Sony XA777ES SACD model, and a Yamaha DVD-S1500. The loudspeakers were a pair of Snell C5s. It seems as if the equipment used to evaluate the audibility of the 16/44.1 bottleneck was variable and never itself truly verified for audio bandwidth and dynamic range. If this were my measurement campaign I would insist on a frequency sweep of the entire equipment chain from source to sound waves captured with a calibrated microphone at the listening position. As it is, I am not convinced that the introduced 16/44.1 bottleneck was truly the dominant system bottle neck. I don't have any worries about the Carver amp, but the Adcom pre has a 0.5dB bandwidth of 20Hz to 20kHz, and the speakers top out at 22kHz. It's 2011 and its still well past time to settle the matter scientifically. -- dsdreamer -- Dreamer, easy in the chair that really fits you... dsdreamer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12588 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85879 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Time for a speculation thread...
Also a x86 server box at 300$ can you really get a quality machine with good spec for that ? At least it must have a separate flash or ssd for the OS, music on a separate drive and you want to be able to expand it with at least one extra drive ? Dual core atom. This a common mistake done on daily basis on this forum , trying to get a server for the same price or cheaper than the Touch ? 500-600$ is more like it for a bare bones no frills thing. Other ideas. The idea of an actually working Touch with built in server as a base product is good. A stopgap fix would be to provide a USB drive that works with the Touch with an Logitech logo on it. A drive with it's own psu. It may be true that Touch fulfils the usb spec, but everybody knows that usb drives don't so designing it like that was doomed. It's like designing a car that goes exactly 60mph why more your not allowed to go faster anyway ;) The separate server box can be marketted against multiroom users, Logitech is not good at advertizing the multiroom aspect. Sonos call some of thier player zone players so that people really gets it. I think you can get another couple of year out of the existing kit if sold as a multiroom solution, for smart homes . You also gets more money for whole house audio integration than a one off gadget. And jus keep such people as logitech US on a tigth leash so they don't blow the multiroom aspect by for example not having the intended expansin box, in current product range the reciever in stock. A key aspect is that Squeezeboxes works best collectively as a system. So all Logitech in all markets must carry all of them, or sales over theese artificial market segments borders must be allowed Cooperate more with iPeng and SqueezePad keep these product in mind when developing, they are so comonly used that their functionality and stability is an issue that Logitech should be interested in. -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD SqueezePad Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85982 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Time for a speculation thread...
pski;615050 Wrote:
Nothing in their marketing has a single reference to using the player
without a server.
Which marketing are you talking about ?
There isn't much indication in the material on their web shop that
indicates that you need a local server to use the device ? Have I
missed some other marketing channel ?
I agree with JJZolx:
- The Radio should be market as an player for online music, with its
physical design and support for Spotify, Pandora, LastFM, Napster,
Rhapsody, WiMP and similar services it should be very hot for the users
that want an internet radio.
- The Touch needs to work reliably with music from UPnP servers and USB
drives without running a separate server, without this support it's hard
to sell it to a lot more people.
The Radio is for bedroom, kitchen or outside the house while the Touch
is the solution if you like to play the music through your existing
amplifier and speakers.
As mentioned before, many of us are happy to run a separate server and
like the thin client model in our multi room setups, but it gets too
complex for the masses.
Also, they should use the existing third party offerings for iOS in
their marketing. I mean, $10 for an iOS app is nothing if you just have
purchased a $299 product and previously an even more expensive iOS
product. Mentioning iOS and Android on the box and in the marketing
material will make the devices easier to sell. Logitech could even
arrange so you get a $10 discount to make it possible to get the iOS
app and still be below $300. Trying to build an iOS app themselves is
just stupid, they will never be able to do something as good as current
third party apps and they will never be able to earn back the
investment, it's a lot more cost effective to just promote the existing
third party offerings. In the long run, we will get a lot better support
and a lot more features if the third party offerings is used, if
Logitech is in control they will just make something that works good
enough to put it on the box and then halt the development since it's
not worth investing more as they have to give it away for free. If they
insist on having a Logitech logo in the app, I'm sure they will be able
to come to an agreement with the third party developers as long as
Logitech don't get greedy and want to start earning money on the app
themselves. Personally, I wouldn't prefer a re-brand because it removes
the competition between the apps and the result is that there is no
reason for the third party developer to keep adding features to stay
ahead of competing iOS apps, I think some kind of discount arrangement
would be preferred.
At last, to be a great success they also need to improve how you get
the music to the device, the current process with ripping and tagging
is too complex, what we need is either:
- Mainly use online music services, like Spotify, Rhapsody, Pandora,
WiMP, Napster, LastFM
or
- Integrate a music store similar to iTunes Music Store.
Even though a music store would be great, there is no way Logitech can
compete with Apple in this area, so this once again means that their
focus needs to be on good integration with online music services,
something Apple has more or less ignored so far.
In my mind, all this means that the focus needs to be on the client
side and on the mysqueezebox.com side, unfortunately the standalone
server in the form of SBS really doesn't fit in the above scenarios.
I'm sorry to say this because I really want it myself but to be honest,
it's not the best way to reach the masses.
There could possibly be room for a more geeky multi room solution with
a Logitech provided server product on top of this, but it would be
targeted at the geeks, a bit similar to the more expensive Logitech
Harmony remotes. Still, the Radio and Touch products needs to work good
as standalone players without any local server, so a standalone server
wouldn't be a great source for profits but it would make the Squeezebox
product line more attractive to users who need a multi room setup and is
ready to pay. A re-brand or collaboration of vortexbox seems like the
logical choice for such a box.
--
erland
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(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
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Re: [slim] 24-bit audio (new article)
If you read the paper they are open for that you can not prove nonexistance of something scientifically. So there can be outliers where detections is possible. Also they used more than one setup but these are not specified ? Also some studio monitors where involved in some unspecified cases ? This paper is most interesting if you see what they tried to do, they used a range of typical audiophile stereos and a bunch of mostly typical audiphiles. So they build a very strong case for that the normal situation is that sligthly worse than CD quality is tranparent to most audiphiles in most cases especially at normal listening levels. The oposite is a rare exception but not ruled out as completely impossible. Their other conclusion is just as interesting, that most of the dvd-a and sacd they used had very good sq. Good masters . If you specifically wants to find the rare exceptions one can set it up like a challange. Where interested parties can bring in equipment they think is capable. A good modern fully digital recording that stand a chance for detection I don't think remasters of 30 yo stuff cuts it ( not DSD either ).. Listener(s) they believe are qualified. Failing on your own terms is much more convincing . And you most likely will find exceptions, people that with some special recordings on very good systems that can hear this. But it can not be expanded to a general case where most audiophiles can safely assume that they are this Special case. But if it makes you feel better you can secretly assume that you are that exception, I wont tell ;) But hey this is not what hirez audio is hyped up to be. The labels make the hype becomme true by providing better masters. An another note what is the stuart paper they challange is it an AES paper by Bob Stuart of Meridian perhaps ? I once had a white paper from Meridian where Bob stated that 20 bit 55 kHz sample rate was the ultimate limit . And they did sell a lot of dvda players ( can you see my sig ). -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD SqueezePad Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85879 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
