Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
If either of you guys have a Receiver it's be interesting to know if you experience the same perceived difference in sound quality. As we are talking about MP3/Lossless comparisons, I have the file mentioned in this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32576, and would be quite happy to upload it to some free web space if someone wanted to give it a go (and could suggest where I might upload it to!). This assumes that the originator of the file is OK about (I need to ask him first as I have a feeling he might be a solicitor). MC -- ModelCitizen Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. It's the music, stupid. http://www.last.fm/user/ModelCitizen ModelCitizen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
I have my SB going direct to my Denon AVP5000 pre-amp via Wireworld Super Nova 5+ toslink cable. The cable is a high end (polished ends) fiber optic cable, this sounds best to me. Better than the digital coax out of the SB to my pcs' (XiFi Elite Pro) sound card. I have what's considered gourmet ears so I hear the differences in just about every cable made.I sometimes listen to DIFM Chillout when I get home from work at five a.m. so I wear headphones thru the digital coax from pc, as always this way is a little tight, quick transients, shrill highs, all instruments are very close together. It sounds good at first but I get ear fatigue fast. The Super Nova 5+ direct to the pre-amp then out the POA5000 via Transparent Audio Music Plus inter connects, then out to speakers using Wireworld Equinox speaker cables to Sony SS-LA500EDs and the sub thru Wireworld sub cable to Energy 12 250 watt powered subwoofer. The SB thru this method sounds much better and since I added the Wireworld Super Nova 5+ cable the instruments in the soundstage have a more wide open spatialness with what sounds like a more realistic placement of where each instrument actually was in the recording, especially true with orchestra recordings. I'm saving for the tube modded transporter as this is being written. I'll probably change out my inter connects to a wireworld product soon as well -- Limitless Limitless's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15737 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
RadioClash;277420 Wrote: There are settings within the slimserver that will effect sound quality... _Exactly_ which settings affect sound quality? Where do I find these settings and which values should be assigned? (I have browsed around the forum but haven't found such a list of settings) Best regards / Rickard -- mats_rickard mats_rickard's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9052 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
mats_rickard;286013 Wrote: _Exactly_ which settings affect sound quality? Where do I find these settings and which values should be assigned? (I have browsed around the forum but haven't found such a list of settings) Best regards / Rickard The only things I can think of that would have any effect are: Bitrate limiting (should be off) ReplayGain/SmartGain (also off) Digital volume control (should be fixed) I've listed these in order of impact, most significant first. Bitrate limiting will cause an mp3 transcode which is obviously not good. The other two relate to the digital volume control. In the first case, replay gain will often cause the levels from the SB to be lower than the original CD which can screw up a/b tests, although that's really a perception thing rather than reality. The digital volume control (also used by the replay gain functionality) will cause bit loss if it's turned down significantly, but assuming you have to attenuate somewhere between the server and the speakers it may (IMHO) not be a bad place to do it. YMMV and all that :) -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
radish;286080 Wrote: Bitrate limiting (should be off) ReplayGain/SmartGain (also off) Digital volume control (should be fixed) I agree, I cant hear any substantial difference between my MeridianG98DH and the SB3 ? if set upp like this. Replay gain has a bug that could end up in digital clipping. A simple test would be to try to send an dts or dolby digital stream, if the bits are altered by the server or SB3 the outcome would be white noise. Get a ripp of the same music made by somebody else to rule out your ripping setupp. I would also avoid ripping on a laptop off any kind, i've never seen a good slimline drive (there may be such a thing but i never seen one). To me many EAC is so slow treads seems to indicate use of laptop's for ripping. I'll watch this with interest as i'm afflicted by this audiophilia bug. Another angle could be that the SB is on it's last leg ? ready to breakdown any minute now. -- Mnyb Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
dwilliams01;277468 Wrote: I've got a Dennon DVD 3910 and when I first got my SB3 I did some side-by-side and blind tests. I made sure that the player had processing turned off by using the Direct and Pure Direct modes. There seemed to be a difference between normal and the direct modes of the player (it was doing something), but I couldn't tell a difference between the player's direct modes and and the SB3. I always had the Reciever's (Denon AVR-4306) processing turned on to adjust for balance, timing, room accoustic handling, etc. I also make sure that the SB3's volume control doesn't do anything to the digital outputs - not sure if that would have any impact on precieved sound quality or richness, though, if the end volume was the kept the same. I also ripped the CDs to flac using EAC and checked with AccurateRip to confirm a good rip. I COULD tell a difference between the highest bitrate mp3 and a CD every time. On the pratical side it matters little what is right, it is your ears and perception that is important - perhaps you could adjust your reciever to process the sound to make it better to your ears? In the past I've liked modes like Jazz Club, etc. because they give a warmer feel... Good to read that you have other experiences with flac usage. Reading that you hear differences in highest MP3 bitrate vs CD sound confincing enough for me to doubt my test case. I'll setup another one to re-evaluate the CD vs .FLAC comparison. Also thanks to all other who reacted. I'll take the advise given into account. Hopefully I may be able to do some testing this weekend. I'll let you know the outcome. Frank -- SilverRS8 Author of -'AlbumCatalogCreator' (http://www.vanholt.nl/acc/acc.htm)- for SqueezeCenter SlimServer SilverRS8's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12818 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
Phil Leigh;277294 Wrote: Presumably running in high quality mode? What CD player are you using? I'm 99% sure about the high quality mode but i'll check on that. Thx for the tip. The CD player is a Denon 2910. -- SilverRS8 Author of -'AlbumCatalogCreator' (http://www.vanholt.nl/acc/acc.htm)- for SqueezeCenter SlimServer SilverRS8's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12818 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
SilverRS8;277302 Wrote: I'm 99% sure about the high quality mode but i'll check on that. Thx for the tip. The CD player is a Denon 2910. Hi, Not shooting your ears down here, but that isn't even a dedicated *CD* transport!! A multi-purpose DVD player, with a reasonable good DAC. Had good reviews in What Hi-Fi SV over here, but by no means a critical player of CD's It is most likely that the Denon is doing something to the CD that makes it sound nicer to your ears. Even though the final stage is in the AMP this still applies. Like the way somepeople prefer the sound of MP3's to CD's (can't understand that one myself!) owing to the psycho-acoustics and the emphasis that seems to occur on bass tones. Either way its all a matter of what your ears are most used to, and what you perceive as better in sound quality. Nic -- DrNic DrNic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=92 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
DrNic;277365 Wrote: Hi, Not shooting your ears down here, but that isn't even a dedicated *CD* transport!! A multi-purpose DVD player, with a reasonable good DAC. Had good reviews in What Hi-Fi SV over here, but by no means a critical player of CD's It is most likely that the Denon is doing something to the CD that makes it sound nicer to your ears. Even though the final stage is in the AMP this still applies. Like the way somepeople prefer the sound of MP3's to CD's (can't understand that one myself!) owing to the psycho-acoustics and the emphasis that seems to occur on bass tones. Either way its all a matter of what your ears are most used to, and what you perceive as better in sound quality. Nic I never said I had a audiophile CD player and although a reasonable good DAC it isn't used here because I use the DAC of the receiver. I was just wondering where the sound difference comes from and didn't expect CD players or multi purpose DVD players to tweak the sound with their own 'sound' like you said. That would mean every CD player around is not creating the original sound like it is suppose to do? -- SilverRS8 Author of -'AlbumCatalogCreator' (http://www.vanholt.nl/acc/acc.htm)- for SqueezeCenter SlimServer SilverRS8's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12818 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
SilverRS8;276878 Since everything is digital up until the Receiver, why does the original CD have more 'body' and a little more detail? Frank[/QUOTE Wrote: There are settings within the slimserver that will effect sound quality. Even the specific firmware being used has an effect. (eccentrics like me still feel that every post-15 firmware version has been broken, but let's not get into that) There have been a few threads over the years covering this subject. -- RadioClash RadioClash's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
I've got a Dennon DVD 3910 and when I first got my SB3 I did some side-by-side and blind tests. I made sure that the player had processing turned off by using the Direct and Pure Direct modes. There seemed to be a difference between normal and the direct modes of the player (it was doing something), but I couldn't tell a difference between the player's direct modes and and the SB3. I always had the Reciever's (Denon AVR-4306) processing turned on to adjust for balance, timing, room accoustic handling, etc. I also make sure that the SB3's volume control doesn't do anything to the digital outputs - not sure if that would have any impact on precieved sound quality or richness, though, if the end volume was the kept the same. I also ripped the CDs to flac using EAC and checked with AccurateRip to confirm a good rip. I COULD tell a difference between the highest bitrate mp3 and a CD every time. On the pratical side it matters little what is right, it is your ears and perception that is important - perhaps you could adjust your reciever to process the sound to make it better to your ears? In the past I've liked modes like Jazz Club, etc. because they give a warmer feel... -- dwilliams01 dwilliams01's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10988 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
SilverRS8;277384 Wrote: I never said I had a audiophile CD player and although a reasonable good DAC it isn't used here because I use the DAC of the receiver. I was just wondering where the sound difference comes from and didn't expect CD players or multi purpose DVD players to tweak the sound with their own 'sound' like you said. That would mean every CD player around is not creating the original sound like it is suppose to do? EDIT: In my opinion (and correct me if I'm wrong) the digital information is retrieved from the CD and than passed through over the digital interface without signal processing it. The DAC in the receiver adds possible coloring but since the DAC used is both used for the CD signal as the SB signal, where does the difference come from? Hey, I'm no audiophilanthropist, just pointing something out, hence my not to shoot your ears down comment! I also acknowledge the fact that you use the AMPS DAC rather than the Denon's. Whilst your sentiment about the digital stream *should* be correct, there are many factors that influence the quality of the stream - just check out our very own audiophile forum or google on the subject. Who knows the quality of the jitter on the denon or use of oversampling etc??!! dwilliams01;277468 Wrote: I've got a Dennon DVD 3910 and when I first got my SB3 I did some side-by-side and blind tests. I made sure that the player had processing turned off by using the Direct and Pure Direct modes. There seemed to be a difference between normal and the direct modes of the player (it was doing something), but I couldn't tell a difference between the player's direct modes and and the SB3. This is just the sort of thing I was getting at.. :) Agreed, in the end its all about the music! Nic -- DrNic DrNic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=92 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
SilverRS8;276878 Wrote: What i've always wondered; How can there be a difference in sound quality when I play a CD or play the same ripped CD using the Squeezebox in .flac format? When using analogue outputs I could reason this but in both cases digital outputs are used hence both devices using the same (receiver) DAC. Since everything is digital up until the Receiver, why does the original CD have more 'body' and a little more detail? Frank The one thing that I believe nobody has addressed yet is how are you controlling volume? When doing a side by side versus a CD player, IMO, the volume on the SD product should be at maximum and the when using the digital out try the fixed setting. The CD player does not suffer from resolution loss caused by the volume setting section in the SD product. Any side by side test needs to account for this, so volume at Max on the SD product to eliminate any resolution loss. -- iPhone iPhone Last.FM http://www.lastfm.com/user/mePhone Media Room: Transporter, Vandersteen Quatro Signature, Ayre MX-R Mono Blocks, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, VCC-5 Reference Center Channel, four VSM-1 Signatures, Runco 710, RAM Oppo DV970HD, VeraStarr 6.4SE Living Room: Squeezebox 3, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold Bedroom: Squeezebox 3, Thiel 2.3, NAD C370 iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
iPhone;277481 Wrote: The one thing that I believe nobody has addressed yet is how are you controlling volume? When doing a side by side versus a CD player, IMO, the volume on the SD product should be at maximum and the when using the digital out try the fixed setting. The CD player does not suffer from resolution loss caused by the volume setting section in the SD product. Any side by side test needs to account for this, so volume at Max on the SD product to eliminate any resolution loss. I'm guessing you know that the volume has to be reduced quite a bit before one enters the realm of resolution loss? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
jeffmeh;276996 Wrote: Also, be sure that you have matched the volume levels for the comparison. And if you really want to be certain, see if you can tell the difference in a blind comparison ducking for cover. Check for any replay gain too - this will cause the SB to be different volume to the CD player. Blind is worth trying - get a friend round and some beer :) -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others SB+, EAR V20, Living Voice OBX-R2s plus some other stuff SB3, Charlize, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
The only thing I can think of is that the configuration of file formats is wrong (and as an effect FLAC is converted to MP3) To check this, in SqueezeCenter, go to Settings Advanced File Types. Make sure that at the FLAC entry MP3 is disabled (I also disabled WAV, because I want my Transporter to decode the flac). Teus de Jong -- Teus de Jong Teus de Jong's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15415 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
The digital path before the amp could theoretically make a difference. My Squeezebox sounds better than my CD player (cheap Panasonic CD-DVD changer). The conventional wisdom is that the Squeezebox should outperform any mid-range CD player, and some more expensive ones. -- mrfantasy --Mike mrfantasy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1127 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
mrfantasy;276901 Wrote: The digital path before the amp could theoretically make a difference. My Squeezebox sounds better than my CD player (cheap Panasonic CD-DVD changer). The conventional wisdom is that the Squeezebox should outperform any mid-range CD player, and some more expensive ones. But if the digital path before the amp makes a difference, this would mean bits are changed in this path which I find difficult to believe for digital information, otherwise the sound should be the same. Right? -- SilverRS8 Author of -'AlbumCatalogCreator' (http://www.vanholt.nl/acc/acc.htm)- for SqueezeCenter SlimServer SilverRS8's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12818 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
SilverRS8;276904 Wrote: But if the digital path before the amp makes a difference, this would mean bits are changed in this path which I find difficult to believe for digital information, otherwise the sound should be the same. Right? Nope. Read about jitter here and elsewhere. Ceejay. -- ceejay ceejay's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=148 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
If you're using an optical SPDIF, try a wire one. You could also try swapping from wire to optical (or vice-versa) with the CD player, just to see what that does. -- bobkoure bobkoure's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
Also, be sure that you have matched the volume levels for the comparison. And if you really want to be certain, see if you can tell the difference in a blind comparison ducking for cover. -- jeffmeh jeffmeh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3986 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
bobkoure;276934 Wrote: If you're using an optical SPDIF, try a wire one. You could also try swapping from wire to optical (or vice-versa) with the CD player, just to see what that does. Already tried a lot of options including swapping SPDIF/Coaxial but the CD player keeps sounding better. I guess there is no solution but I was just wondering how this could be when comparing the same CD vs the CD in FLAC. The track is digitally stored on the computer and transmitted over Wifi to the SB. TCP makes sure the file is exactly transmitted without any errors (no jitter possible here). The track, arrived at the SB is send over the digital interface without being processed by the SB DAC. Here there can be some jitter issues but unlikely causing a difference in sound (bass is less than from CD and details are also less. They are more 'blendend'). Its absolutly not bad but if I really feel like 'listening' to music, i prefer my CD player but I rather like to prefer my SB :-( -- SilverRS8 Author of -'AlbumCatalogCreator' (http://www.vanholt.nl/acc/acc.htm)- for SqueezeCenter SlimServer SilverRS8's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12818 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
How were the FLAC files created? What ripping software did you use? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Sound quality difference CD player vs SB3 FLAC playback?
Phil Leigh;277289 Wrote: How were the FLAC files created? What ripping software did you use? I used EAC. -- SilverRS8 Author of -'AlbumCatalogCreator' (http://www.vanholt.nl/acc/acc.htm)- for SqueezeCenter SlimServer SilverRS8's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12818 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=44394 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
