Re: [DNG] Gnome and KDE: Was: a how to question (project(s) related)

[Didier Kryn]

Le 18/08/2021 à 12:22, al3xu5 a écrit :
> Tue, 17 Aug 2021 17:46:01 -0400 - Steve Litt :
>
>> Antony Stone said on Tue, 17 Aug 2021 21:38:05 +0200
>>
>>  
>>> "I think both KDE and Gnome suck - I'm quite unbiased in that, because
>>> I use a Mac."
>>> - Jason Isitt  
>> I think both KDE and Gnome suck - I'm quite unbiased in that, because I
>> use OpenBox on Linux.
>
> I think both KDE and Gnome, and also all the Mac stuff, suck -- I'm
> quite unbiased in that, because I use OpenBox (+LXDE) on Linux.
>
    I've used Gnome and KDE many years ago, before they started to suck.
I had recently the opportunity to use Mac and Windows and they both
suck. Here is an example:

    I have a USB memory key on which are several directories with
photos, personal videos (from my Gopro Hero-2) plus some movies. Amongst
the directories, there is one named DCIM because I have used it in the
camera. Fatal error!

    When I plug the USB key on my laptop, I can open it with hopman and
look at any of the contents with thunar or xfce4-ternimal.

    When I plug it on a TV receiver, I can navigate the directory
structure, by first choosing if I want to see photos or videos.

    When I plug it on a Mac, it looks for a (photo or video) application
to open it, doesn't find one and never tries to just show it in a file
manager.

    When I plugged it into the Windows machine of a friend 1 month ago,
we tried half an hour to open it in the file manager (or however they
call that on Windows), without success. We gave up. After that I
discovered that Windows had created a lot of junk files on the USB key.

    I consider Mac sucks as much as Windows; I dislike Mac's desktop,
maybe by lack of habit, and I hate the way they prevent the user to make
simple things. For example it is impossible to open an SVG file by
clicking on it. You must first launch the web browser! Mac was once (in
1981) the inventor of the idea of associating a file type to an
application. Very well, but with any Linux file manager you can open a
file not only with a default application but with any one of your
choice. And there is a default application out of the box for SVG files.

    When I see the life of a friend of me with her Macs, I just see her
as a prisonner. She keeps an old desktop Mac, because she has on it an
old version of Photoshop which is enough for her. She does nothing else
with this machine. She has a newer one with which she does other things.
She never uses them to browse the web or send mails but relies for that
on her Android smartphone which continuously harasses her with
commercial "allerts". I do all that (except the "allerts") with my
single laptop running Devuan and Xfce4.

    I dunno when a Mac becomes old (meaning not maintained by Apple). 3,
4 years? After that any hardware or software becomes incompatible. It
may be fine to have a Mac when it is renewed by your employer every 3
years. Nice because it is beautiful and shining, and, most of all,
expensive. But, even when it is new, it *sucks*.

--     Didier


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome and KDE: Was: a how to question (project(s) related)

[al3xu5]

Tue, 17 Aug 2021 17:46:01 -0400 - Steve Litt :

> Antony Stone said on Tue, 17 Aug 2021 21:38:05 +0200
> 
>  
> >"I think both KDE and Gnome suck - I'm quite unbiased in that, because
> >I use a Mac."
> > - Jason Isitt  
> 
> I think both KDE and Gnome suck - I'm quite unbiased in that, because I
> use OpenBox on Linux.


I think both KDE and Gnome, and also all the Mac stuff, suck -- I'm
quite unbiased in that, because I use OpenBox (+LXDE) on Linux.


Regards
al3xu5

Disclaimer -- It's just a bit of irony... No offense... ;-)



-- 
Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and industrial design
restrictions!


Public GPG/PGP key: 8FC2 3121 2803 86E9 F7D8  B624 DA50 835B 2624 A36B


pgpD60xXTGwsv.pgp
Description: Firma digitale OpenPGP
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

[DNG] Gnome and KDE: Was: a how to question (project(s) related)

[Steve Litt]

Antony Stone said on Tue, 17 Aug 2021 21:38:05 +0200

 
>"I think both KDE and Gnome suck - I'm quite unbiased in that, because
>I use a Mac."
> - Jason Isitt

I think both KDE and Gnome suck - I'm quite unbiased in that, because I
use OpenBox on Linux.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome 3 Status

[Steve Litt]

Olaf Meeuwissen said on Fri, 09 Apr 2021 19:59:26 +0900

>Hi Steve,
>
>Steve Litt writes:
>
>> Mate via Dng said on Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:23:29 +0300
>>
>>  
>>>My own preference is 3rd Gnome.  
>>
>> What would Gnome give you that you can't get from other Window
>> Managers and Desktop Environments (WM/DE)?  
>
>A familiar work environment, perhaps?

That's always nice, but for a person not wanting systemd, in the long
run Gnome is a dead end. I was wondering about specific features and
elements of workflow.

>
>I ditched GNOME a long while ago myself and did the same with KDE but
>somehow can't get myself to ditch Xfce and get back to a hand-rolled
>.xinitrc like I used to use a couple of decades ago ... go figure.

There's a lot less reason to ditch xfce: It still (AFAIK) works well
with sysvinit and runit and s6 and openrc, without doing anything
special.

>
>It's all really a matter of inertia.

I'm a big fan of inertia. Life's too short to change your workflow
every month. But when you see a dead end coming down the road, or when
the status quo is getting too difficult, sometimes its best to make
your move earlier rather than later.

>Or muscle memory.

I'm a big fan of muscle memory. I use Vim. Nuff said?

But sometimes there are compelling reasons to move to other software
and relearn your muscle memory. Heck, if I never changed muscle memory,
I'd still be using Wordstar :-)

>
>Going off-topic
>
>> By the way, are you a touch typist who can type over 35 wpm?  
>
>In what language?  And what educational level of prose?
>
>I am a touch typist, certified, mind you, and hit somewhere between 135
>and 140 cpm (including spaces and punctuation but no funny accents) on
>a mechanical typewriter way back in secondary school at the exam.  In
>my native language, that works out to about 17 or 18 words for a normal
>newspaper article.  In English, I thinks it's more like 20.  In German
>it'd be even less, probably around 15.  In Japanese ... who knows.

What I was getting at is that the 35 wpm typist, assuming a word is 5
characters and 1 space, is probably better off using a user interface
like I have (simple window manager + dmenu + UMENU2, or XFCE + dmenu
but no UMENU2) rather than a more mousy UI. At 20 WPM, I could make a
case for your using a UI like mine, or make a case for your using a
mouse driven one. My understanding is that Gnome3 has some great
workflow features for the mouse-centric user, but other WM/DEs (Window
Manager or Desktop Environments) are also very performant for the mouse
centric.

>
># And let's not add predictive input methods to the mix ;-)
># Me very much dislikes those.

If you mean these things that guess the word you mean and finish it for
you, yeah, those are horrible.

Anyway, the bottom line is that Gnome is nice and all that, but it's
not the end of the world if you don't use it, and the way things are
going, sooner or later you won't be able to use it, and perhaps it's
better to change your muscle memory at your leisure than to
unexpectedly be forced to do it after an upgrade.

Also, for anyone typing 35 WPM or more, life is more productive when
you use the keyboard more and the mouse less, and that can be
accomplished by adding dmenu, and possibly UMENU2, to any WM/DE.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome 3 Status

[Olaf Meeuwissen via Dng]

Hi Steve,

Steve Litt writes:

> Mate via Dng said on Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:23:29 +0300
>
>
>>My own preference is 3rd Gnome.
>
> What would Gnome give you that you can't get from other Window Managers
> and Desktop Environments (WM/DE)?

A familiar work environment, perhaps?

I ditched GNOME a long while ago myself and did the same with KDE but
somehow can't get myself to ditch Xfce and get back to a hand-rolled
.xinitrc like I used to use a couple of decades ago ... go figure.

It's all really a matter of inertia.
Or muscle memory.

Going off-topic

> By the way, are you a touch typist who can type over 35 wpm?

In what language?  And what educational level of prose?

I am a touch typist, certified, mind you, and hit somewhere between 135
and 140 cpm (including spaces and punctuation but no funny accents) on a
mechanical typewriter way back in secondary school at the exam.  In my
native language, that works out to about 17 or 18 words for a normal
newspaper article.  In English, I thinks it's more like 20.  In German
it'd be even less, probably around 15.  In Japanese ... who knows.

# And let's not add predictive input methods to the mix ;-)
# Me very much dislikes those.

Hope this helps,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate
 Join the Free Software Foundation  https://my.fsf.org/join
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome 3 Status

[Steve Litt]

Mate via Dng said on Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:23:29 +0300


>My own preference is 3rd Gnome.

What would Gnome give you that you can't get from other Window Managers
and Desktop Environments (WM/DE)?

By the way, are you a touch typist who can type over 35 wpm?

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome 3 Status

[Ludovic Bellière]

Hi Mate,

On ven, 09 avr 2021, Mate via Dng wrote:

> My own preference is 3rd Gnome. I can't see it in the official
> supported desktop environments list for the Beowulf release, but my
> testing in virtual machine shows that it works.
> 
> Could you please advise me if it's stable enough to use it on a daily
> basis?
> 
To disperse a misconception that you may have, devuan is solely debian
but without systemd. As such, any software not on the list of [banned
package][0] should work as is.

AFAIK the issue with Gnome is that it relies heavily on systemd
components. Thus the choice to not propose it by default. However it
should work just work by using elogind instead of consolekit.

Bests,
Ludovic

[0]: http://deb.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt



signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

[DNG] Gnome 3 Status

[Mate via Dng]

Hello Everyone!

Somehow all this systemd buzz flew behind me, so it's a pity that I
discovered all drawbacks that it has recently. Which lead me to
understand that it's not an init system that I want. It's nice to see
that here, a lot of people are doing the right thing, from my point of
view.

My own preference is 3rd Gnome. I can't see it in the official
supported desktop environments list for the Beowulf release, but my
testing in virtual machine shows that it works.

Could you please advise me if it's stable enough to use it on a daily
basis?

Thank you.

--
Best Regards,
Mate

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Daniel Reurich]

On 29/09/17 09:01, Bardot Jérôme wrote:
> Le 28/09/2017 à 13:41, Arnt Karlsen a écrit :
>> On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 09:40:54 +0200, Bardot wrote in message 
>> :
>>
>>> Le 27/09/2017 à 18:24, Edward Bartolo a écrit :
 Quote: "Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome
 here so we can tell the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in
 their source tree, and to accept the patches we (and others) will
 send upstream."
>>> If the work is done i don't know why they not accept it.
>> ..could easily be politics: "Systemd und ordning muss sein!"
>>
 Pushing systemd down Gnome users' throats is part of their marketing
 strategy. How are you going to convince the Gnome developers not to
 use anything to that helps them attain their goals? Is it enough to
 state the already stated about systemd and its adoption? I am afraid
 the developers are too enthusiastic about systemd's new ways to
 accept the olden ways.
>>> There is a few number of young developper aware of this.
>>> Me for example. But it's not easy to create a company and
>>> take time for not remunerate work on free software.
>> ..true, especially when "upstream hates you", or when 
>> everyone believes "it's not worth the while nor effort."
>>
> I know several sys admin whom migrate to devuan the last past weeks
> because their prod server bug cause of systemd.
> 
> I show several messages from twitter like "f%ck you systemd" the last is
> because restart won't work because of dbus.
> 
> I hope a day debian people woke up.
> 
> The last step for me before migrate is devuan catch up last debian testing.
> 
> Do you or something else know if some companies need dev work on free
> software ? 
> 
> Because i will be available soon.
> 
> How many people currently work on devuan ?
> 
that depends very much on what you mean by "work on"

It could range from a handful of active devs doing packaging to hundreds
of contributors...




-- 
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Bardot Jérôme]

Le 28/09/2017 à 13:41, Arnt Karlsen a écrit :
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 09:40:54 +0200, Bardot wrote in message 
> :
>
>> Le 27/09/2017 à 18:24, Edward Bartolo a écrit :
>>> Quote: "Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome
>>> here so we can tell the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in
>>> their source tree, and to accept the patches we (and others) will
>>> send upstream."
>> If the work is done i don't know why they not accept it.
> ..could easily be politics: "Systemd und ordning muss sein!"
>
>>> Pushing systemd down Gnome users' throats is part of their marketing
>>> strategy. How are you going to convince the Gnome developers not to
>>> use anything to that helps them attain their goals? Is it enough to
>>> state the already stated about systemd and its adoption? I am afraid
>>> the developers are too enthusiastic about systemd's new ways to
>>> accept the olden ways.
>> There is a few number of young developper aware of this.
>> Me for example. But it's not easy to create a company and
>> take time for not remunerate work on free software.
> ..true, especially when "upstream hates you", or when 
> everyone believes "it's not worth the while nor effort."
>
I know several sys admin whom migrate to devuan the last past weeks
because their prod server bug cause of systemd.

I show several messages from twitter like "f%ck you systemd" the last is
because restart won't work because of dbus.

I hope a day debian people woke up.

The last step for me before migrate is devuan catch up last debian testing.

Do you or something else know if some companies need dev work on free
software ? 

Because i will be available soon.

How many people currently work on devuan ?




0x03878A98.asc
Description: application/pgp-keys


signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 09:40:54 +0200, Bardot wrote in message 
:

> Le 27/09/2017 à 18:24, Edward Bartolo a écrit :
> > Quote: "Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome
> > here so we can tell the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in
> > their source tree, and to accept the patches we (and others) will
> > send upstream."
> If the work is done i don't know why they not accept it.

..could easily be politics: "Systemd und ordning muss sein!"

> > Pushing systemd down Gnome users' throats is part of their marketing
> > strategy. How are you going to convince the Gnome developers not to
> > use anything to that helps them attain their goals? Is it enough to
> > state the already stated about systemd and its adoption? I am afraid
> > the developers are too enthusiastic about systemd's new ways to
> > accept the olden ways.
> 
> There is a few number of young developper aware of this.
> Me for example. But it's not easy to create a company and
> take time for not remunerate work on free software.

..true, especially when "upstream hates you", or when 
everyone believes "it's not worth the while nor effort."

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Bardot Jérôme]

Le 27/09/2017 à 18:24, Edward Bartolo a écrit :
> Quote: "Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome
> here so we can tell the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in
> their source tree, and to accept the patches we (and others) will send
> upstream."
If the work is done i don't know why they not accept it.
> Pushing systemd down Gnome users' throats is part of their marketing
> strategy. How are you going to convince the Gnome developers not to
> use anything to that helps them attain their goals? Is it enough to
> state the already stated about systemd and its adoption? I am afraid
> the developers are too enthusiastic about systemd's new ways to accept
> the olden ways.

There is a few number of young developper aware of this.
Me for example. But it's not easy to create a company and
take time for not remunerate work on free software.


> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


J.



0x03878A98.asc
Description: application/pgp-keys


signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

[DNG] Gnome?

[Edward Bartolo]

Quote: "Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome
here so we can tell the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in
their source tree, and to accept the patches we (and others) will send
upstream."

Pushing systemd down Gnome users' throats is part of their marketing
strategy. How are you going to convince the Gnome developers not to
use anything to that helps them attain their goals? Is it enough to
state the already stated about systemd and its adoption? I am afraid
the developers are too enthusiastic about systemd's new ways to accept
the olden ways.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 10:21:05 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:
> 
> 
> El 27/09/17 a les 08:12, John Morris ha escrit:
> > On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 03:42 -0400, taii...@gmx.com wrote:  
> >> Why not use the gnome 2 fork MATE?  
> > 
> > Why not?  It mostly works out of the box, I'm using it now.  If you
> > install it onto a laptop you won't have working power management
> > because of dependencies on systemd.  Google can give you the
> > details but you need to locally rebuild mate-applets,
> > mate-power-manager and mate-session-manager, some with no changes
> > some with one liners.  Slept since I did it and can't remember
> > details at the moment.  :)  Once you fix those three pakages, no
> > problems.

> The subject for this thread is Gnome (v3), that is a different desktop
> than Mate (v1).
> Please, don't forget the initial petition for this thread (and for any
> list's thread) that has no relation on choosing a Desktop Environment.

Exactly. The OP (Original Poster) prioritized having Gnome3 over
everything else, so I'm sure he'll be quite happy remaining in systemd
land. John --- the list suggested Mate and several other wonderful
WMDEs to the OP, but he demanded his Gnome3,  which is unlikely to ever
appear in Devuan because the chance of finding someone having both a
love of Gnome3 and the tech chops to depoetterize it is slim.

Which means this thread has outlived its usefulness.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[John Morris]

On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 03:42 -0400, taii...@gmx.com wrote:
> Why not use the gnome 2 fork MATE?

Why not?  It mostly works out of the box, I'm using it now.  If you
install it onto a laptop you won't have working power management because
of dependencies on systemd.  Google can give you the details but you
need to locally rebuild mate-applets, mate-power-manager and
mate-session-manager, some with no changes some with one liners.  Slept
since I did it and can't remember details at the moment.  :)  Once you
fix those three pakages, no problems.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[John Franklin]

> On Sep 26, 2017, at 3:42 AM, taii...@gmx.com wrote:
> 
> Why not use the gnome 2 fork MATE?

If you really want Gnome 3 Shell, then you want to run Fedora.  Any other 
(major) distro might run G3S, but it will have odd quirks.  Ubuntu, for 
example, is really a Unity distro, and the package configs and dependencies 
will tend towards the Unity configuration.

jf
-- 
John Franklin
frank...@tux.org



___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Rowland Penny]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 10:04:24 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> Current Mate is pretty different than current Gnome.
> It's like somebody asking for Windows GUI and responding with Windows
> 3.11-like GUI.
> 
> 

Windows 3.11-like would be 'Windows for workgroups' and Mate is nothing
like 'Windows for workgroups'
It is more like XP or Win7

Rowland


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

Current Mate is pretty different than current Gnome.
It's like somebody asking for Windows GUI and responding with Windows
3.11-like GUI.


El 26/09/17 a les 09:42, taii...@gmx.com ha escrit:
> Why not use the gnome 2 fork MATE?
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[taii...@gmx.com]

Why not use the gnome 2 fork MATE?
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 11:57:37 +0200, Didier wrote in message 
<848f652f-8b44-800f-88c1-da35cb086...@in2p3.fr>:

> Le 20/09/2017 à 20:07, Steve Litt a écrit :
> > On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:31:38 -0400
> > John Franklin  wrote:
> >
> >
> >> That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have
> >> gotten used to it.  If we could get Gnome working here, it would
> >> attract more users to Devuan.
> > Serious question: Do we want that kind of user? Somebody who knows
> > enough to discern a difference between Gnome and Xfce, but doesn't
> > understand how interchangeable WMDEs are, nor how much work it would
> > take Devuan to keep on undoing all the systemd dependencies Gnome
> > will doubtlessly keep sewing into Gnome?
> >
> > You can't please all the people all the time, and prioritization of
> > resources means some are simply going to choose other distros.
> >   
>  In other words, should Devuan try to seduce those people who
> just look for a gratuitous Windows? This is typically what Gnome is
> doing.

..it more like they have (successfully) seduced developers into 
wasting their time on less than worthwhile code to help the guy 
who started GNOME.ORG "earn a job at Microsoft", _somehow_.

.."yes, Qt licensing sucked, yes, sysv is old and sucks, but 
you say the fix is Gnome and systemd???" ;oD

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 20/09/2017 à 20:07, Steve Litt a écrit :

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:31:38 -0400
John Franklin  wrote:



That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have
gotten used to it.  If we could get Gnome working here, it would
attract more users to Devuan.

Serious question: Do we want that kind of user? Somebody who knows
enough to discern a difference between Gnome and Xfce, but doesn't
understand how interchangeable WMDEs are, nor how much work it would
take Devuan to keep on undoing all the systemd dependencies Gnome will
doubtlessly keep sewing into Gnome?

You can't please all the people all the time, and prioritization of
resources means some are simply going to choose other distros.
  
In other words, should Devuan try to seduce those people who just 
look for a gratuitous Windows? This is typically what Gnome is doing.


Didier

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[golinux]

On 2017-09-20 14:22, John Franklin wrote:
On Sep 20, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Steve Litt  
wrote:


On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:31:38 -0400
John Franklin  wrote:


That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have
gotten used to it.  If we could get Gnome working here, it would
attract more users to Devuan.


Serious question: Do we want that kind of user? Somebody who knows
enough to discern a difference between Gnome and Xfce, but doesn't
understand how interchangeable WMDEs are, nor how much work it would
take Devuan to keep on undoing all the systemd dependencies Gnome will
doubtlessly keep sewing into Gnome?

You can't please all the people all the time, and prioritization of
resources means some are simply going to choose other distros.


Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome here so we
can tell the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in their source
tree, and to accept the patches we (and others) will send upstream.
We have to be able to show tangible demand for a systemd-free Gnome
shell, and the easiest way is popcon.

Of course, I’d like to think some of those users would, in fact, know
the difference between Gnome and XFCE, prefer Gnome (for whatever
reason), and have the technical skills to help keep it patched.

jf


If you (or someone else) puts a team together to do the work - yeah, I'm 
pretty sure it will take a team to sort through all that gnome has to 
'offer - it would probably find it's way into Devuan.  Since there 
aren't even enough devs to get ascii out the door, I doubt you'll find 
anyone wanting to scratch that itch in this camp.  FYI, we not only have 
systemd refugees here, we have plenty of gnome refugees too.   The 
closest Devuan comes to gnome is a version of cinnamon maintained by 
antofox at https://git.devuan.org/AntoFox/Cinnamon


golinux
(who parted ways with gnome2 when gnome3 arrived)

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[John Franklin]

> On Sep 20, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Steve Litt  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:31:38 -0400
> John Franklin  wrote:
> 
> 
>> That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have
>> gotten used to it.  If we could get Gnome working here, it would
>> attract more users to Devuan.
> 
> Serious question: Do we want that kind of user? Somebody who knows
> enough to discern a difference between Gnome and Xfce, but doesn't
> understand how interchangeable WMDEs are, nor how much work it would
> take Devuan to keep on undoing all the systemd dependencies Gnome will
> doubtlessly keep sewing into Gnome?
> 
> You can't please all the people all the time, and prioritization of
> resources means some are simply going to choose other distros.

Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome here so we can tell 
the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in their source tree, and to 
accept the patches we (and others) will send upstream.  We have to be able to 
show tangible demand for a systemd-free Gnome shell, and the easiest way is 
popcon.

Of course, I’d like to think some of those users would, in fact, know the 
difference between Gnome and XFCE, prefer Gnome (for whatever reason), and have 
the technical skills to help keep it patched.

jf
-- 
John Franklin
frank...@tux.org



___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:31:38 -0400
John Franklin  wrote:


> That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have
> gotten used to it.  If we could get Gnome working here, it would
> attract more users to Devuan.

Serious question: Do we want that kind of user? Somebody who knows
enough to discern a difference between Gnome and Xfce, but doesn't
understand how interchangeable WMDEs are, nor how much work it would
take Devuan to keep on undoing all the systemd dependencies Gnome will
doubtlessly keep sewing into Gnome?

You can't please all the people all the time, and prioritization of
resources means some are simply going to choose other distros.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[John Franklin]

> On Sep 20, 2017, at 2:06 AM, Didier Kryn  wrote:
> 
> Le 19/09/2017 à 15:00, Narcis Garcia a écrit :
>> 1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for
>> unexperienced and normal people.
> 
>Are you kidding? I consider myself an experienced user and cannot make 
> sense of either Gnome or KDE in their "modern" incarnations.

You’re not alone, and this is why Linux Mint Cinnamon has become such a popular 
DE.

That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have gotten used to 
it.  If we could get Gnome working here, it would attract more users to Devuan.

jf
-- 
John Franklin
frank...@tux.org



___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Clarke Sideroad]

On 09/18/2017 03:02 AM, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ?
>
> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu.
>
While as others have said Gnome is an intertwined mess with systemd,
there has been a continuing effort by dantrell to keep it mostly usable
without systemd in Gentoo.
https://github.com/dantrell/gentoo-project-gnome-without-systemd

Following the same path might be possible in Devuan, but I see it as a
continual battle as it appears that Gnome swallows more and more of the
"good ideas" of systemd at each turn.   I really can't see much demand
for Gnome in Devuan based on the response here, but I think that is
understandable given that Gnome was the shoehorn that was used to fill
almost everybody's Linux boots with the systemd excrement.

Clarke  
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 07:38:28AM -0400, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:35:42 +0200
> Adam Borowski  wrote:
> 
> > And yeah, an analogy that makes systemd a disease is fitting...
> 
> I know, been refering to it for ages as a pox...

It's funnier in Polish where colloquial words for STDs carry some additional
implications.  Not sure what's the equivalent in English or Paraguaian[1].


Meow!

[1]. I don't mean uncertainty wrt which of the two Iberian languages you use
(which I never manage to remember), but that pre-Internet swearwords tend to
be local.  Like, the language in Quebec uses church utensils...
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ I've read an article about how lively happy music boosts
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ productivity.  You can read it, too, you just need the
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ right music while doing so.  I recommend Skepticism
⠈⠳⣄ (funeral doom metal).
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI]

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:35:42 +0200
Adam Borowski  wrote:

> And yeah, an analogy that makes systemd a disease is fitting...

I know, been refering to it for ages as a pox...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
  Withholding information is the essence of tyranny.
 Control of the flow of information is the tool of the dictatorship.
-- Bruce Coville

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 07:00:06AM -0400, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 12:50:55 +0200
> Narcis Garcia  wrote:
> 
> > I prefer the best (for me) of all worlds: No Systemd, but Yes Gnome.
> 
> Which is like wanting unprotected sex, but without sexually transmitted
> diseases...

So you need some extra work: you need to have tested all partners you don't
immediately trust.  More effort, and you need to be careful or you'll miss
something, but still doable.

It's recommended to have sex with partners who are already known to be
STD-free.

(And yeah, an analogy that makes systemd a disease is fitting...)


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ I've read an article about how lively happy music boosts
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ productivity.  You can read it, too, you just need the
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ right music while doing so.  I recommend Skepticism
⠈⠳⣄ (funeral doom metal).
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI]

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 12:50:55 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> I prefer the best (for me) of all worlds: No Systemd, but Yes Gnome.

Which is like wanting unprotected sex, but without sexually transmitted 
diseases...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
 Sodd's Second Law: 
 Sooner or later, the worst possible set of circumstances is bound to occur.

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:50:55PM +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> El 20/09/17 a les 12:43, J. Fahrner ha escrit:
> > Am 2017-09-20 11:59, schrieb Narcis Garcia:
> > 
> >> I like to rely on distribution's packages and be able to open a bug when
> >> necessary about it. If Devuan's people say Gnome is not supported at
> >> all, this means I need some other way to work on this.
> > 
> > IMHO this would be the best option for you. Why do you insist on using
> > Devuan when you want Gnome? What is wrong with Debian in this case?
> > 
> I prefer the best (for me) of all worlds: No Systemd, but Yes Gnome.

Then you have to go and complain with the GNOME guys, who
unfortunately are doing all they can to make you unhappy (and without
a good reason, IMHO)...

My2Cents

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

El 20/09/17 a les 12:43, J. Fahrner ha escrit:
> Am 2017-09-20 11:59, schrieb Narcis Garcia:
> 
>> I like to rely on distribution's packages and be able to open a bug when
>> necessary about it. If Devuan's people say Gnome is not supported at
>> all, this means I need some other way to work on this.
> 
> IMHO this would be the best option for you. Why do you insist on using
> Devuan when you want Gnome? What is wrong with Debian in this case?
> 
I prefer the best (for me) of all worlds: No Systemd, but Yes Gnome.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2017-09-20 11:59, schrieb Narcis Garcia:

I like to rely on distribution's packages and be able to open a bug 
when

necessary about it. If Devuan's people say Gnome is not supported at
all, this means I need some other way to work on this.


IMHO this would be the best option for you. Why do you insist on using 
Devuan when you want Gnome? What is wrong with Debian in this case?


Jochen


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

Could Devuan project itself open a bug in bugzilla.gnome.org about
issues without Systemd?


El 18/09/17 a les 09:02, Narcis Garcia ha escrit:
> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ?
> 
> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu.
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
> 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

El 20/09/17 a les 11:48, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha escrit:
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200
> Narcis Garcia  wrote:
> 
>> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ?
>> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu.
> 
> There are in the Devuan repo 557 packages related to Gnome, 303 of which have 
> Gnome in their name.
> 
> So go ahead, install Gnome, and go in peace...
>  

I like to rely on distribution's packages and be able to open a bug when
necessary about it. If Devuan's people say Gnome is not supported at
all, this means I need some other way to work on this.

Anyway, I'll give it a try.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI]

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ?
> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu.

There are in the Devuan repo 557 packages related to Gnome, 303 of which have 
Gnome in their name.

So go ahead, install Gnome, and go in peace...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
 In order to rally people, governments need enemies.
  They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them.
And if they do not have a real enemy,
they will invent one in order to mobilize us.
 -- Thich Nhat Hanh

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2017-09-19 at 16:04 +0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Tue, 2017-09-19 at 15:22 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> > I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
> > But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
> > for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.
> 
> I run mate in Devuan Ascii. BBL when I started up that image again.

I just checked. Mate on Devuan/Ascii runs fine :)
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 19/09/2017 à 15:00, Narcis Garcia a écrit :

1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for
unexperienced and normal people.


Are you kidding? I consider myself an experienced user and cannot 
make sense of either Gnome or KDE in their "modern" incarnations.


XFCE is what ressembles most the old Gnome; it is similar to Gnome 
2, but even simpler since all applications can be found in one single 
menu tree.


Didier


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:00:22 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:
> > Why in the world would you need Gnome?  
> 
> 1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for
> unexperienced and normal people.
> 
> 2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users
> that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more),
> use Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was.
> 
> 3. Why not?

The following points concern Gnome3. I had nothing against Gnome2, but
it's not available anymore.

a) Gnome is a pig: A serious resource consumer.

b) Gnome is tightly meshed with systemd. Even if somebody out there has
   published a secret incantation to get it to work without systemd,
   that incantation is unlikely to stay functional very long. In fact,
   Redhat and Poettering have a demonstrated motive for Gnome not to
   work without systemd.

c) Gnome may (or may not) be "intuitive" to illogically thinking
   people, but with its "let me guess what you want and present it to
   you" way of working, it consistently gets in the way of logical
   people. And more people are logical than not. Give them a well
   thought out, static hierchical menu system, and they'll know what to
   do.

d) Gnome is a mesh of promiscuously communicating parts, with all the
   feedback loops you'd expect, such that if one part malfunctions,
   various hard to diagnose problems will appear in other parts.

e) Some of your hundreds of users will tweak their Gnome in various
   ways, leading to maintenance headaches. Of course, this is true of
   other WMDEs, but it's easier to do with Gnome, and with its manifold
   higher number of knobs and levers, harder to put it back into
   functionality.


SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:56:13 +0200
"J. Fahrner"  wrote:

> I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they
> try to enforce Devuan developers to offer Gnome. Devuans goal is to
> offer a Linux system without systemd. And that's not possible for
> Gnome, because Gnome depends on systemd. If you want Gnome you have
> to live with systemd. It's your choice. If you want a Windows GUI you
> have to use Windows. But don't cry.

Couldn't have said it better myself. We all have priorities, and some
priority sets aren't conducive to Devuan.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.

Stick with Debian, become an expert on systemctl and journalctl, and
don't come crying to me.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 11:19:02 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:
> 
> 
> El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:

> Why in the world would you need Gnome? Copy their home directory,


>> I'm trying now to make an installation as similar as possible to
>> Gnome. XFCE is the best option for a Gnome-like theme and behavior?

I think Unity would provide the most Gnome like experience (assuming
you mean Gnome3). Xfce enables you to have multiple panels, which I
think you can use to simulate the panels and drawers in Gnome2.

Am I reading correctly here that you're prioritizing your selection on
the *theme*? How much stability and intuitiveness are you willing to
sacrifice for theme? Xfce is OK, but from my perspective it's slowly
sidling up to systemd, and may one day be unuseable without systemd.

That said, Xfce is currently a good candidate assuming your computer
has the horsepower to run it, and if your computer could run Gnome3, it
certainly can run Xfce.


SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 16:49:31 +0200, Narcis wrote in message 
<2d75dd54-26ec-7d5a-e5c4-23506cbf7...@actiu.net>:

> El 19/09/17 a les 16:16, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha escrit:
> > On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200
> > Narcis Garcia  wrote:
> > 
> >> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
> >> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate
> >> was for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.
> > 
> > What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ?
> >  
> 
> Today, mainly the well-known design to users I support.
> Most of computer users don't like computing; everyday they expect same
> usage and behavior of machines.

..are you able to "upgrade" your users to TDE, KDE, LXDE, LXQt, MATE 
or Cinnamon using a Wintendo-style theme to keep your users happy? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Desktop_Environment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LXDE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LXQt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MATE_(software)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon_(software)

..I don't know these much, TDE is a fork off KDE-3.5 which 
was great, also had Wintendo-style themes to keep users and 
bean counters happy.

..compared to KDE-3.5 (and I guess TDE), KDE-4.x and Plasma 
sucks, but has become endurable with 8GB ram.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 03:00:22PM +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:
> 
> 2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users
> that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), use
> Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was.

Wait for gnome 3->4.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Alessandro Selli]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 at 16:49:31 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> El 19/09/17 a les 16:16, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha escrit:
>> On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200
>> Narcis Garcia  wrote:
>>   
>>> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
>>> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
>>> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.  
>> 
>> What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ?
>>
>
> Today, mainly the well-known design to users I support.
> Most of computer users don't like computing; everyday they expect same
> usage and behavior of machines.

  I'd like to know how those people reacted during the Gnome2 -> Gnome3
transition.


  Regards,


Alessandro
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

El 19/09/17 a les 16:16, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha escrit:
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200
> Narcis Garcia  wrote:
> 
>> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
>> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
>> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.
> 
> What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ?
>  

Today, mainly the well-known design to users I support.
Most of computer users don't like computing; everyday they expect same
usage and behavior of machines.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

El 19/09/17 a les 15:56, J. Fahrner ha escrit:
> Am 2017-09-19 15:00, schrieb Narcis Garcia:
>> El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:
>>> Why in the world would you need Gnome?
>>
>> 1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for
>> unexperienced and normal people.
>>
>> 2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users
>> that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), use
>> Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was.
>>
>> 3. Why not?
> 
> I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try
> to enforce Devuan developers to offer Gnome. Devuans goal is to offer a
> Linux system without systemd. And that's not possible for Gnome, because
> Gnome depends on systemd. If you want Gnome you have to live with
> systemd. It's your choice. If you want a Windows GUI you have to use
> Windows. But don't cry.
> 

My first strategy on Windows to GNU migrations was to use a
WindowsXP-like theme for Gnome.
All users were happy with this, unlike I left Gnome 2 as it was.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

El 19/09/17 a les 15:30, Rick Moen ha escrit:
> Quoting Narcis Garcia (informat...@actiu.net):
> 
>> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
>> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
>> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.
> 
> Or you could give Xfce a try.  It's rather nice.
> 
> But whatever's your cuppa.
> 

I have no problem with other desktop softwares if them can be
configured/themed to seem Gnome.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Antony Stone]

On Tuesday 19 September 2017 at 15:16:58, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote:
>
> > I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
> > But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
> > for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.
> 
> What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ?

In this situation I'd guess the answer is familiarity.


Antony.

-- 
Archaeologists have found a previously-unknown dinosaur which seems to have 
had a very large vocabulary.  They've named it Thesaurus.

   Please reply to the list;
 please *don't* CC me.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Svante Signell]

On Mon, 2017-09-18 at 13:45 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200
> 
> Why in the world would you need Gnome?

I don't think we should blindly reject providing Gnome in Devuan. As I wrote,
shwsh has already provided the two needed packages: elogind and gnome-settings-
daemon. As you might know GuixSD is running Gnome, and they use elogind (ported
by a Guix developer from systemd). Ability to choose desktops is good for
versatility in addition to init system choices.

Even if I don't run Gnome somebody else might want to. And if we can provide it
why not. This is a situation very similar to eudev (fork of udev from systemd).
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.

What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ?
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
 Democracy is also a form of worship.
  It is the worship of Jackals by Jackasses.
-- H. L. Mencken

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2017-09-19 at 14:51 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> I've tried shwsh's procedure and it doesn't work in the first step.

> Scenario was: Devuan 8 fresh install with all defaults, and only removed
> default desktop with:
> $ sudo tasksel remove desktop xfce-desktop
> $ sudo reboot

You have to be careful which version you use to try out gnome. It seems like
shwsh use ceres and ascii, combined with Debian strech. Definitely not jessie!
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2017-09-19 at 15:22 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.

I run mate in Devuan Ascii. BBL when I started up that image again.

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2017-09-19 15:00, schrieb Narcis Garcia:

El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:

Why in the world would you need Gnome?


1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for
unexperienced and normal people.

2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users
that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), use
Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was.

3. Why not?


I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try 
to enforce Devuan developers to offer Gnome. Devuans goal is to offer a 
Linux system without systemd. And that's not possible for Gnome, because 
Gnome depends on systemd. If you want Gnome you have to live with 
systemd. It's your choice. If you want a Windows GUI you have to use 
Windows. But don't cry.


Jochen

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Narcis Garcia (informat...@actiu.net):

> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.

Or you could give Xfce a try.  It's rather nice.

But whatever's your cuppa.

-- 
Rick Moen  "The numbers one through ten should be spelled out,
r...@linuxmafia.comwhile numbers greater than ten are products of the 
McQ!  (4x80)   Illuminati and should be avoided."
   -- @FakeAPStylebook
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd.
But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was
for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area.

Servers are an independent chapter.


El 19/09/17 a les 15:14, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha escrit:
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:00:22 +0200
> Narcis Garcia  wrote:
> 
>> 3. Why not?
> 
> Because all recent versions of Gnome are infected with the systemd pox.
>  
> Cheers,
>  
> Ron.
> 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 03:00:22PM +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:
> > Why in the world would you need Gnome?
> 
> 1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for
> unexperienced and normal people.
> 
> 2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users
> that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), use
> Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was.
> 
> 3. Why not?

...and foremost, why should one provide excuses for their choices on
Desktop Environments at all? :)

I have not used GNOME since its version 1.x (with x very small, I
guess), and still think that it would be better for a universal
distribution like Devuan to provide a way to install GNOME, if at all
possible (i.e., if it does not require systemd).

I am lacking the basic skills and interest to work on that, but still.

:)

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:00:22 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> 3. Why not?

Because all recent versions of Gnome are infected with the systemd pox.
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
  A society that puts equality over freedom
  will not get any of those things.
  A society that puts freedom above equality
   will get a high degree of both."
 -- Milton Friedman

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:
> Why in the world would you need Gnome?

1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for
unexperienced and normal people.

2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users
that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), use
Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was.

3. Why not?
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

I've tried shwsh's procedure and it doesn't work in the first step.
apt loops in a large messages list, all saying:

...
Note, selecting 'python2.7-taurus' for regex '.'
Note, selecting 'r-cran-kernsmooth' for regex '.'
Note, selecting 'slsh' for regex '.'
...

Neither with dpkg:
$ sudo dkg -i elogind_234-2.2_amd64.deb
...
dpkg: error processing archive elogind_234-2.2_amd64.deb (--install):
 trying to overwrite '/lib/udev/rules.d/70-power-switch.rules', which is
also in package udev 215-17+deb8u7
dpkg: error: subprocess paste was killed by signal (Broken pipe)
Errors were encountered while processing:
 elogind_234-2.2_amd64.deb

Scenario was: Devuan 8 fresh install with all defaults, and only removed
default desktop with:
$ sudo tasksel remove desktop xfce-desktop
$ sudo reboot


El 18/09/17 a les 12:28, Svante Signell ha escrit:
> On Mon, 2017-09-18 at 09:02 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote:
>> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ?
>>
>> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu.
> 
> On IRC September 6 somebody (shwsh) reported gnome running on Devuan. He
> packaged elogind gnome-settings-deamon. For more info see
> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1581
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
> 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2017-09-19 at 11:19 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> I'm trying now to make an installation as similar as possible to Gnome.
> XFCE is the best option for a Gnome-like theme and behavior?

See https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170918.102751.1992aff3.en.html

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Narcis Garcia]

I'm trying now to make an installation as similar as possible to Gnome.
XFCE is the best option for a Gnome-like theme and behavior?


El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit:
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200
> Narcis Garcia  wrote:
> 
>> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ?
> 
> Gnome is so tightly would with systemd that it can't be run on Devuan
> with reasonable effort.
> 
>> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu.
> 
> Why in the world would you need Gnome? Copy their home directory, add
> them to /etc/group and /etc/passwd as on the old machine, assign them
> temporary passwords which you give them, and have them change their
> passwords. Set them all up with Xfce, and if they want to migrate to
> LXDE or Openbox or ctwm let them do it themselves.
> 
> PS: Do them a favor and incorporate dmenu using an easy hotkey. They'll
> be so thrilled with the quick and easy user interface that they'll
> never miss Gnome.
>  
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt
> September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
> Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
> 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 18/09/2017 à 19:45, Steve Litt a écrit :

  assign them
temporary passwords which you give them, and have them change their
passwords.


Or just copy their shadow passwords.

Didier


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ?

Gnome is so tightly would with systemd that it can't be run on Devuan
with reasonable effort.

> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu.

Why in the world would you need Gnome? Copy their home directory, add
them to /etc/group and /etc/passwd as on the old machine, assign them
temporary passwords which you give them, and have them change their
passwords. Set them all up with Xfce, and if they want to migrate to
LXDE or Openbox or ctwm let them do it themselves.

PS: Do them a favor and incorporate dmenu using an easy hotkey. They'll
be so thrilled with the quick and easy user interface that they'll
never miss Gnome.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt
September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Svante Signell]

On Mon, 2017-09-18 at 09:02 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ?
> 
> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu.

On IRC September 6 somebody (shwsh) reported gnome running on Devuan. He
packaged elogind gnome-settings-deamon. For more info see
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1581
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Ron]

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200
Narcis Garcia  wrote:

> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ?
> 
> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu.

For a recent version of Gnome:

1- Install systemd

..
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   Whenever one person is found adequate to the discharge of a duty
  by close application thereto, it is worse executed by two persons
   and scarcely done at all if three or more are employed therein. 
   -- George Washington

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200, Narcis wrote in message 
:

> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ?
> 
> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu.

..the only versions I can recommend, are the gnome-1.x-ish versions
that came with S.u.S.E.-5.2.  It was wonderful back then 19 years 
ago, and _might_ pass you desktop users snifftest even now.


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] GNOME usability "improvements"

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl):

> Another one:
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=785956
> 
> It really makes me wonder why any distribution still even ships Gnome, much
> less has it as the default.

My best guess after watching many organisations' behaviour:  Most of the
decision-makers focus only on their own specific, small-scope problems
and don't even bother to see larger trends, let alone worry about their
implications.  It's actually more troubling than willful bad policy;
it's effectively a lack of policy, people in charge just not paying
attention.

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] GNOME usability "improvements"

[zap]

> Nope, this is unrelated.  And they had no souls even late in Gnome2 days,
> before systemd was even a glimmer in Lennart's eye.
>
That is very surprising, and here I thought they once had a
conscience...  Although gnome 3 and systemd are very lets call it:
"unnecessary"

I say that only because of what debian has done because of those two
things.

Making systemd a required dependency for things that don't really need
it + removing runit-init and most other init options?

sounds nasty to me. I thought debian was the universally free operating
system. ;)

meh, false advertising, look away if you can...

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] GNOME usability "improvements" (OT)

[Ron]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 19:35:55 +0200
Adam Borowski  wrote:

> And they had no souls even late in Gnome2 days,
> before systemd was even a glimmer in Lennart's eye.

which probably made it easier for the Evil One to take them under his thrall...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   To YOU I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition.
 -- Woody Allen

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] GNOME usability "improvements"

[Adam Borowski]

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 01:01:16PM -0400, Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 18:24:31 +0200
> Adam Borowski  wrote:
> 
> > It really makes me wonder why any distribution still even ships Gnome, much
> > less has it as the default.
> 
> Could it be because Gnome have sold their immortal souls to Systemd ?

Nope, this is unrelated.  And they had no souls even late in Gnome2 days,
before systemd was even a glimmer in Lennart's eye.

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ James Damore is a hero.  Even mild criticism of bigots these days
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ comes at great personal risk.
⠈⠳⣄ 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] GNOME usability "improvements"

[Ron]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 18:24:31 +0200
Adam Borowski  wrote:

> It really makes me wonder why any distribution still even ships Gnome, much
> less has it as the default.

Could it be because Gnome have sold their immortal souls to Systemd ?
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds;
and the pessimist fears this is true.
-- James Branch Cabell

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

[DNG] GNOME usability "improvements"

[Adam Borowski]

Another one:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=785956

It really makes me wonder why any distribution still even ships Gnome, much
less has it as the default.

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ James Damore is a hero.  Even mild criticism of bigots these days
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ comes at great personal risk.
⠈⠳⣄ 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome, KDE?

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 10:45:19 +0200
Antony Stone  wrote:

> On Tuesday 13 June 2017 08:19:54 Jaromil wrote:
  

> > but not GNOME! As with systemd, we are confident this won't hinder
> > user's freedom of choice since one can always go use Ubuntu or
> > Debian which are offering that.  
> 
> So, you're saying that if you want Gnome, you have to use systemd -
> no way round that?

Yes, with a caveat. The caveat is that some distros, such as Funtoo,
have gone into Gnome and turned off, removed or stubbed calls to
systemd.


> 
> > as we managed to reach these goals now we'll move forward making our
> > distro as universal as possible, hence supporting all DEs that can
> > work without systemd.  
> 
> Is there a short answer (or can you point me at docs) to the question
> "what makes a DE dependent on systemd?"

When the DE uses parts of systemd's API or interface or whatever you
want to call it, that causes the dependency. Such use is a choice by
the DE programmers, as mentioned by Hendrik. One might wonder why the
DE programmers would insist on an API from an early-boot process. Why
should the DE know about the init or vice versa? The technical answer
is that they shouldn't: No reasonable architectural design would favor
such interdependency. This is not a technological issue: It's something
else. Consider that the people encouraging Gnome<->systemd integration
are Gnome, systemd, FreeDesktop.Org and Red Hat, those are the web
pages you should look at. Here's my favorite explanation:

http://asay.blogspot.ru/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html

In the preceding, search down the page for the first occurrence of the
word "complexity".

I'd like to point out one more thing: There's a price for giving up
systemd. If a specific look and feel, or a specific workflow, or a
specific program is of higher priority than your computer having a sane
software architecture with modularity, encapsulation, interchangeable
parts, DIY-friendliness and Linux-obvious testpoints, then a systemd
distro is probably your best choice. 

However, if a reasonable software architecture is of a higher priority,
then the way to handle it is to "just say no" to software trying to
force you into a specific init system (systemd). I'm pretty sure a
Gnome or KDE user could become extremely efficient with LXDE or Xfce or
Openbox + dmenu or fvwm or several others GOSFUIs
(http://troubleshooters.com/linux/gosfui.htm). Humans are remarkably
capable to work around their equipment (in this case the GOSFUI). Who
hasn't regularly driven a bicycle that steered to the left and a car
with not-so-good brakes? Switching between Gnome, KDE, LXDE and Xfce is
remarkably easy for the person who adopts the belief that [s]he is in
charge of the computer, and not vice versa.

The Gnome-liking person not capable of adopting that belief belongs on
a systemd-based distro, or better yet, Microsoft Windows, which is even
more a path of least resistance.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
June 2017 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome, KDE?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 10:45:19AM +0200, Antony Stone wrote:
> 
> Is there a short answer (or can you point me at docs) to the question "what 
> makes a DE dependent on systemd?"
> 

The decision by the developers to use its interfaces instead of the traditional 
ones.

-- hendrik
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome, KDE?

[Antony Stone]

On Tuesday 13 June 2017 08:19:54 Jaromil wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Jun 2017, Antony Stone wrote:
> > So, are Gnome and KDE currently still "known to suffer from some glitches
> > due to the lack of systemd" (and if so, are these documented anywhere)?
> > 
> > Or can these be expected to work as well as XFCE, and as well as Debian
> > Jessie would provide them?
> 
> in brief I think we can pretty much anticipate that KDE will work
> great on future Devuan distributions, also according to recent tests
> made by some enthusiastic members of our community using Plasma on
> ASCII.

Okay, thanks for the confirmation.

> but not GNOME! As with systemd, we are confident this won't hinder
> user's freedom of choice since one can always go use Ubuntu or Debian
> which are offering that.

So, you're saying that if you want Gnome, you have to use systemd - no way 
round that?

> as we managed to reach these goals now we'll move forward making our
> distro as universal as possible, hence supporting all DEs that can
> work without systemd.

Is there a short answer (or can you point me at docs) to the question "what 
makes a DE dependent on systemd?"

Thanks for responding (now that I found the right list to ask on).


Antony.

-- 
René Descartes walks in to a bar.
The barman asks him "Do you want a drink?"
Descartes says "I think not," and disappears.

   Please reply to the list;
 please *don't* CC me.

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gnome, KDE?

[Jaromil]

hi Antony,

On Mon, 12 Jun 2017, Antony Stone wrote:

> So, are Gnome and KDE currently still "known to suffer from some glitches due 
> to the lack of systemd" (and if so, are these documented anywhere)?
> 
> Or can these be expected to work as well as XFCE, and as well as Debian 
> Jessie 
> would provide them?

in brief I think we can pretty much anticipate that KDE will work
great on future Devuan distributions, also according to recent tests
made by some enthusiastic members of our community using Plasma on
ASCII.

but not GNOME! As with systemd, we are confident this won't hinder
user's freedom of choice since one can always go use Ubuntu or Debian
which are offering that.

the reason why there wasn't much progress made on this front is that
in Jessie we concentrated on two main priorities:

- establish a solid team and infrastructure to make Devuan born

- establish a sustainable strategy to remove systemd dependencies and
  monitor future ones sneaking in, while granting a reliable
  transition from Debian 7 and 8 to Devuan 1

as we managed to reach these goals now we'll move forward making our
distro as universal as possible, hence supporting all DEs that can
work without systemd. This way we also hope to facilitate the work of
DE developers, which are welcome to get in touch with us, by providing
a clean and familiar environment where to triage systemd-free
functionalities.

ciao



___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

[DNG] Gnome, KDE?

[Antony Stone]

Hi.

https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/stable-2nd-candidate-announce-050517

I notice that the above RC2 release notes say "Removed GNOME, KDE, and 
Cinnamon as DE options in tasksel. These three DEs are still (mostly) 
installable after the installation is complete, but they are known to suffer 
from some glitches due to the lack of systemd"

I don't see any comment at all about DEs in the LTS 1.0 announcement:
https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/stable-jessie-announce-052517

However, they're not available during a DVD installation of Devuan (although I 
notice that KDE at least does get neatly upgraded if you do a Debian Wheezy -> 
Devuan Jessie online upgrade).

So, are Gnome and KDE currently still "known to suffer from some glitches due 
to the lack of systemd" (and if so, are these documented anywhere)?

Or can these be expected to work as well as XFCE, and as well as Debian Jessie 
would provide them?


Thanks,


Antony.

-- 
I don't know, maybe if we all waited then cosmic rays would write all our 
software for us. Of course it might take a while.

 - Ron Minnich, Los Alamos National Laboratory

   Please reply to the list;
 please *don't* CC me.

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] Gnome-creep into Jessie

[Didier Kryn]

Le 23/05/2015 19:08, Go Linux a écrit :

Thought some of you might find this interesting. A sign of things to come?  Or 
maybe I've totally missed the point (I'm still far from 'back-to-the-living'):

Jessie, unwanted Gnome, xdg autostart, Console Kit

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=17t=122178sid=bd86a0bffd3a77e9f90dc9c52e59a0a7
___



AFAIK, these directories Documents, Music, Pictures, Public, 
Templates, and Videos are part of the Freedesktop standard. If you 
simply delete them, they will be re-created the next time you start your 
DE, eg Xfce. The way to get rid of them is to define them as an already 
existing directory in ~/.config/user-dirs.dirs, eg XDG_VIDEOS_DIR=$HOME.


Hope the trick can help somebody.
Didier

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

[Dng] Gnome-creep into Jessie

[Go Linux]

Thought some of you might find this interesting. A sign of things to come?  Or 
maybe I've totally missed the point (I'm still far from 'back-to-the-living'):

Jessie, unwanted Gnome, xdg autostart, Console Kit

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=17t=122178sid=bd86a0bffd3a77e9f90dc9c52e59a0a7
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] Gnome

[Richard]

 An init-free debian-like distro would be very appealing for the largest
 majority of those that would consider installing Devuan, GNOME or not.


Yes.
And use a DE like Xfce for easier takeup.
Needless complexity is a trap to delay the Devuan project.



On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Mauro Cicio ma...@cicio.org wrote:

 Why do we want to make the group of those not interested in GNOME wait for
 GNOME, when not waiting would result in no major impact on those that are
 interested in GNOME (probably a minority, BTW)?

 It is enough to have a two step release, the first w/o GNOME, which will
 be in the second half of the release.
 The GNOMErs will have to wait longer anyway. Why drag everybody in that?
 Is there any advantage in having a catch-all release?

 No need for polarisation or bridge burning. Just announce a two step
 release.

 Realistically, a tiny minority of those ready to leave Debian just for
 init freedom would make having GNOME sooner rather than later a deciding
 point.
 An init-free debian-like distro would be very appealing for the largest
 majority of those that would consider installing Devuan, GNOME or not.
 Addressing quickly this important subset of the community would guarantee
 Devuan some chances of success.

 mauro




 On 29 December 2014 at 09:55, KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 10:50:07PM -0500, Clarke Sideroad wrote:
  I think this whole CLI - GUI thing causes a lot more polarization
  than it should.
  There are I'm sure a lot of people like myself who use the linux
  desktop day to day, have no problem dealing with the command line or
  administering a few boxes.
  A lot of desktop users are long term geeks, nerds  and computer
  weirdos who don't fit into the Gnome/Redhat Future of the Desktop
  mold.

 If I can give my 2 cents to this discussion, I would like to point out
 that the Conquest of the Desktop Market is just a nonsense, and I
 believe that RedHat knows it very well. GNU/Linux has never taken off
 on desktops, and probably never will, first because the battle has
 already been won by Apple and second because desktops will practically
 disappear (meaning that they will represent an even smaller fraction
 of the overall market), replaced by smartphones and smart-tvs.

 Let's focus on the niche in which GNU/Linux has still the possibility
 to say a word, i.e. the server and backend world. This is exactly what
 RedHat is doing, in the end, with the systemd nonsense: one init to
 rule them all. They know very well that the market that counts for
 GNU/Linux is on the server side, and the systemd nonsense is the last
 strike to effectively wipe out all its competitors there. And they
 have already made a big step in that direction, mainly thanks to the
 silent and quick adoption of the systemd nonsense by virtually all the
 distros which might interfere with the plan, including SuSe and
 Debian.

 Let's try to focus on making a init-free debian-like distro for the
 moment, even at the cost of temporarily loosing some functionality
 (e.g., GNOME) and/or some users (e.g., GNOMErs). IMHO, it's far better
 (and maybe easier) to find tricks and hacks to let GNOME run on a
 functioning Devuan later on, than delaying the release of a
 functioning Devuan just to have GNOME on it since from the
 beginning. Too many projects have already been drowned by the GNOME
 nonsense

 My2Cents

 KatolaZ


 --
 [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
 [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
 [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ]
 [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ]
 ___
 Dng mailing list
 Dng@lists.dyne.org
 https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng



 ___
 Dng mailing list
 Dng@lists.dyne.org
 https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng




-- 
MX-14, Mint-LTS, PCLOS, Gobo
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] Gnome

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

On 29 December 2014 at 11:13, Richard richard.h...@gmail.com wrote:

 An init-free debian-like distro would be very appealing for the largest
 majority of those that would consider installing Devuan, GNOME or not.


 Yes.
 And use a DE like Xfce for easier takeup.


Or Enlightenment... I'm using it on a daily basis, it is very stable,
smooth and beautiful... It have a option to disable-systemd...   :-)

Never tried Xfce, I'll give it a shot...

Cheers!
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

[Dng] Gnome

[Go Linux]

There hasn't been much technical chatter on irc lately. dimkr was trying to 
extract systemd from Gnome with mixed results. I understand that Devuan wants 
to give Debianites who use Gnome an option to move smoothly to a systemd-free 
future (and stick it to Gnome in the process).  But does that have to be a top 
priority?  Why not get Devuan up and running with DEs/WMs that are not so 
entangled with systemd then tackle Gnome once the basic structure is in place?  
Working on Gnome first seems like putting the cart before the horse and my 
guess is that it is slowing things down.

When will 32 bit install isos be available. Any ETA?  That question for Dragan 
FOSS also.

golinux
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] Gnome

[Klaus Hartnegg]

Am 28.12.2014 21:47, schrieb Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI:

OTOH desktop users that will be attracted to Devuan will also be in
majority the same who also already renounced Gnome and Kde.


Very likely yes. But still the largest number of all is probably server 
admins. Linux is mostly a server OS anyway, and desktop users probably 
care less about the init system than server admins do.


Am 28.12.2014 22:02, schrieb Dima Krasner:

IMHO, if we're *technically* able to deliever GNOME, we definitely
should do that


YES!

The suggestion of the OP was not to drop Gnome, but to avoid a delay by 
get Devuan up and running with DEs/WMs that are not so entangled with 
systemd, then tackle Gnome once the basic structure is in place.


Does anybody have an idea how many server admins, and how many desktop 
users are interested in Devuan?


Klaus
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] Gnome

[Philip Lacroix]

Am 28.12.2014 22:57 schrieb Klaus Hartnegg:

OTOH desktop users that will be attracted to Devuan will also be in
majority the same who also already renounced Gnome and Kde.


Very likely yes. But still the largest number of all is probably
server admins. Linux is mostly a server OS anyway, and desktop users
probably care less about the init system than server admins do.


I'm mostly a CLI  desktop user and administrator of a few machines. I 
do care a lot about the init system. According to what I could read on 
forums at LinuxQuestions.org, there are many desktop users who do, 
especially when one particular init system is trying to screw the whole 
distributions ecosystem. I was a loyal Debian (stable) user for several 
years before switching to Slackware two years ago, and I still can't 
believe to what they did to such a venerable and rocky project. Again, 
not only server admins do care about their init system.



Does anybody have an idea how many server admins, and how many
desktop users are interested in Devuan?


What about doing a poll, say, at LinuxQuestions.org? I guess there are 
many Debian users and admins who are not happy at all with the new state 
of affairs. I guess they might welcome a Debian fork, i.e. a step 
backward to sanity.


That said, my hat's off to you, Devuan guys (and gals, if any).

Best wishes,
Philip
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng