Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Andrew Wright]

Hi Malcolm and all,

That is a specific problem of the US-based system - and a problem that
needs to be dealt with. Perhaps some classes should be mandatory, but not
count to your final grade...? The entire first year of my British undergrad
was considered to be foundation and didn't count to my final mark. You had
to pass everything to progress, but the grades didn't contribute to your
final mark.

Otherwise, the system is basically saying 'we shouldn't teach students hard
stuff, because it will hurt their grades'. I am not sure that this is a
good philosophy over the long-term.

Cheers,

Andrew


--
Andrew Wright, Ph.D.

VaquitaAreBrowncoats: Where Sci-Fi meets Science, the Cosmos meets
Conservation and Firefly meets Flipper. Shiny
https://www.facebook.com/vaquitaarebrowncoats.

"We don't have to save the world. The world is big enough to look after
itself. What we have to be concerned about is whether or not the world we
live in will be capable of sustaining us in it." Douglas Adams

GNU Terry Pratchett

On 24 October 2016 at 04:41, Malcolm McCallum <
malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The biggest problem for students in the life sciences is grades, PERIOD!!!
>
> If you have a 3.8 in the sciences and never took calculus, you can get in
> grad school, and at worse they will ask you to take it then.  If you have a
> 2.6 gpa and took calculus, and earned an A, you are still going to face a
> formidable challenge entering grad school, becoming employed, etc.
>
> The biggest challenge for students in science is undoubtedly science GPA.
> It is not grades in a specific course, which courses they take, or even if
> they major in a specific area of the life sciences.  Its grades grades
> grades.  Should they matter?  Yes to a degree.  But, whether they should or
> not, THEY DO MATTER...PERIOD.
>
> Want to send a message to students?  Put a minimum GPA on the major, but
> don't restrict courses to students in the major.
> If people are worried about the exceptional student who has extraordinary
> challenges leading to absurdly unique circumstances, provide an avenue for
> a waiver.
>
> IF students know they better get a 3.0 gpa or their career in biology is
> over, the ones who can will, and the ones who can't won't matter.
>
> That would be the single biggest improvement, so long as faculty did not
> drop standards in order to ensure students "stay in the major."
>
> Adding more classes to a major in which most States are mandating a 120 hr
> BS is simply not helpful.  Especially when a histotechnologist DOES NOT
> need calculus, a wildlife biologist MIGHT need calc (and certification
> requires it last I saw!), even if a pure ecologist WILL need it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 2:08 AM, Jane Shevtsov  wrote:
>
>> For the last four years, I have been working on a new Math for Life
>> Scientists course at UCLA that our life sciences majors can take (along
>> with a stats course) instead of the usual Calculus for Life Sciences
>> sequence. This course dives right into dynamical modeling, with students
>> learning how to write basic differential equation models on the first day,
>> before we do any calculus, treating X' as just a piece of notation. (Most
>> of our students took calculus in high school but this is not a requirement
>> and we cover the essential concepts of calculus, which most students who
>> took AP Calculus have very little understanding of.) During the two-course
>> sequence, we teach the core concepts of calculus, including multivariable,
>> and linear algebra, but our main focus is on making, simulating and
>> analyzing differential equation models, including many ecological ones.
>> Topics covered include state space, vector fields, trajectories, equilibria
>> and stability (both graphical and linear), nullclines, bifurcations,
>> oscillations and limit cycles, chaos and multivariable optimization, with
>> models from ecology, physiology, and other subject areas including
>> chemistry and physics. There's also a weekly computer lab that uses the
>> free, Python-based program SageMath, so our students also learn basic
>> programming.
>>
>> Student response has been tremendous, to the point where our main
>> challenge now is keeping up with demand. (If you might be interested in
>> teaching this course, please email me off-llist.) We've had many students
>> seek out opportunities to learn more about modeling, get into research that
>> uses it, ask for ways to stay involved with the course after finishing it
>> (we started an undergraduate learning assistant program for the computer
>> labs based on a combination of need and student enthusiasm) and request
>> that a third quarter be added to the sequence. (This would probably cover
>> stochastic and spatial models.) Basically, we're teaching nonlinear
>> dynamics to biology freshmen and they love it. Some combination of this
>> kind of modeling course and statistics would serve most students much
>> 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] should calculus be required of all ecology/biology majors

[Corbin, Jeffrey]

Hello all - Apologies if this has already been mentioned - I can't say I've
read EVERY post in this thread - but I think that an Intro to Computer
Science/Programming class can be as useful as Calculus or more so for many
biology majors. It builds good logical thinking and is much more likely to
be of practical use before and after graduation.

-Jeff

On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 11:40 AM, Michael Marchetti <
michaelpmarche...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Folks
> Very interesting topic and I appreciate all the diverse opinions and
> perspectives.
>
> I wanted to suggest that there is a larger issues at play here that is
> intimately tied to the question at hand, namely the fact that a majority of
> incoming biology students do not have good training in what has been called
> quantitative reasoning and data literacy.  I have found in my own
> experience, that students entering college are often lacking in both
> quantitative skills and data literacy.  These deficiencies create large
> barriers to teaching across the sciences, and I spend substantial portions
> of class and lab time addressing basic and sometimes fairly remedial
> quantitative skills.
>
> I also think that the science of ecology is a potentially great place to
> teach some of this material.  It is not that the subject of Ecology can be
> made more quantitative by incorporating experimental details, mathematical
> models or statistics; it is instead that Ecology is inherently quantitative
> by its very nature.  At the same time, the entire world is rapidly becoming
> more quantitative, so that an understanding of data and quantitative methods
> helps students navigate increasingly complex news cycles and job markets.  I
> think we have a wonderful educational opportunity to incorporate
> quantitative reasoning and data literacy within the ecology curriculum.
>
> as to whether they should also be required to take calculus and stats, im
> emphatically in the yes column.  the more math the better, if only to try
> and address the severe deficit in their educational background.
>
> cheers
> Michael Marchetti
> Fletcher Jones Professor of Ecology
> St Marys College of California
>
> --
> Michael Marchetti
>
> I've known rivers
> Ancient, dusky rivers.
> My soul has grown deep like the rivers
>  -Langston Hughes
>
>


-- 



Jeffrey D. Corbin

Associate Professor

Department of Biological Sciences

Union College

Schenectady, NY 12308

(518) 388-6097

http://jeffcorbin.org

@jeff_d_corbin

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[John Anderson]

Still more fascinating commentary on this thread. I hope I don't come
across as too much of a Luddite, but I am a simple person.  Yes, I do think
it is important to understand the expansions of dN/dt, but (and this is
where I am so simple minded) I really want to know what N is and how you
got it.  Every summer I take a team of students out to a seabird island for
seven weeks to both help me in my work and to develop projects of their
own. Every morning we climb the lighthouse tower and silently count and
write down the total number of birds we see. Then we compare our numbers
over breakfast. Big white birds against a simple backdrop. Sometimes the
difference between the low count and the high for gulls can be on the order
of 400%. We then talk about models and modeling

On Sunday, October 23, 2016, Jane Shevtsov  wrote:

> For the last four years, I have been working on a new Math for Life
> Scientists course at UCLA that our life sciences majors can take (along
> with a stats course) instead of the usual Calculus for Life Sciences
> sequence. This course dives right into dynamical modeling, with students
> learning how to write basic differential equation models on the first day,
> before we do any calculus, treating X' as just a piece of notation. (Most
> of our students took calculus in high school but this is not a requirement
> and we cover the essential concepts of calculus, which most students who
> took AP Calculus have very little understanding of.) During the two-course
> sequence, we teach the core concepts of calculus, including multivariable,
> and linear algebra, but our main focus is on making, simulating and
> analyzing differential equation models, including many ecological ones.
> Topics covered include state space, vector fields, trajectories, equilibria
> and stability (both graphical and linear), nullclines, bifurcations,
> oscillations and limit cycles, chaos and multivariable optimization, with
> models from ecology, physiology, and other subject areas including
> chemistry and physics. There's also a weekly computer lab that uses the
> free, Python-based program SageMath, so our students also learn basic
> programming.
>
> Student response has been tremendous, to the point where our main
> challenge now is keeping up with demand. (If you might be interested in
> teaching this course, please email me off-llist.) We've had many students
> seek out opportunities to learn more about modeling, get into research that
> uses it, ask for ways to stay involved with the course after finishing it
> (we started an undergraduate learning assistant program for the computer
> labs based on a combination of need and student enthusiasm) and request
> that a third quarter be added to the sequence. (This would probably cover
> stochastic and spatial models.) Basically, we're teaching nonlinear
> dynamics to biology freshmen and they love it. Some combination of this
> kind of modeling course and statistics would serve most students much
> better than calculus.
>
> Jane Shevtsov
>
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 8:30 PM, John Grady  > wrote:
>
>> Great conversation. I guess I'll add my two cents too. In my experience
>> (postdoc, macroecology) I deal regularly with calculus equations, but
>> really only insofar as I see them in a paper and need to understand what
>> they are trying to say. I'm not integrating many equations, and I suspect
>> the number of ecologists actually doing such work is somewhere near 1%.
>> Sure, the theory behind most ecology - from Lotka-Volterra to modern
>> statistical methods we use in R - is based on some amount of calculus,
>> probability theory or linear algebra. These are all great things to know,
>> but rarely of much actual use for the vast majority of practicing
>> ecologists. However, what I think *is* very useful, is knowing how read
>> and understand equations. To understand *dN/dt*, you should understand
>> what a derivative is and why its such an important concept. Likewise,
>> understanding integrals and limits are quite useful. A course designed to
>> give biologists a basic vocabulary in calculus - filled with real
>> biological examples - would be invaluable and not nearly so painful and
>> mostly pointless as the calculus many of us have taken. Those classes
>> basically consisted of pattern recognition (what kind of math problem is
>> this?), plugging in some  algorithm you'll forget the next week, and then
>> chugging away at a solution that makes little sense. Most math taught today
>> is too abstract and mechanical to offer conceptual insight to biologists.
>> It goes in one ear and out the other.
>>
>> Theoretical and computational type ecologists could certainly benefit
>> from more learning, but I think a mandatory semester stressing conceptual
>> and reading competency in math would be sufficient for 90+ percent of
>> biology majors. The main challenge I 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Malcolm McCallum]

Before anyone responds with the Einstein misinformation..
Read this..
He had stellar grades.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2004/06/23/1115185.htm

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Malcolm McCallum <
malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The biggest problem for students in the life sciences is grades, PERIOD!!!
>
> If you have a 3.8 in the sciences and never took calculus, you can get in
> grad school, and at worse they will ask you to take it then.  If you have a
> 2.6 gpa and took calculus, and earned an A, you are still going to face a
> formidable challenge entering grad school, becoming employed, etc.
>
> The biggest challenge for students in science is undoubtedly science GPA.
> It is not grades in a specific course, which courses they take, or even if
> they major in a specific area of the life sciences.  Its grades grades
> grades.  Should they matter?  Yes to a degree.  But, whether they should or
> not, THEY DO MATTER...PERIOD.
>
> Want to send a message to students?  Put a minimum GPA on the major, but
> don't restrict courses to students in the major.
> If people are worried about the exceptional student who has extraordinary
> challenges leading to absurdly unique circumstances, provide an avenue for
> a waiver.
>
> IF students know they better get a 3.0 gpa or their career in biology is
> over, the ones who can will, and the ones who can't won't matter.
>
> That would be the single biggest improvement, so long as faculty did not
> drop standards in order to ensure students "stay in the major."
>
> Adding more classes to a major in which most States are mandating a 120 hr
> BS is simply not helpful.  Especially when a histotechnologist DOES NOT
> need calculus, a wildlife biologist MIGHT need calc (and certification
> requires it last I saw!), even if a pure ecologist WILL need it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 2:08 AM, Jane Shevtsov  wrote:
>
>> For the last four years, I have been working on a new Math for Life
>> Scientists course at UCLA that our life sciences majors can take (along
>> with a stats course) instead of the usual Calculus for Life Sciences
>> sequence. This course dives right into dynamical modeling, with students
>> learning how to write basic differential equation models on the first day,
>> before we do any calculus, treating X' as just a piece of notation. (Most
>> of our students took calculus in high school but this is not a requirement
>> and we cover the essential concepts of calculus, which most students who
>> took AP Calculus have very little understanding of.) During the two-course
>> sequence, we teach the core concepts of calculus, including multivariable,
>> and linear algebra, but our main focus is on making, simulating and
>> analyzing differential equation models, including many ecological ones.
>> Topics covered include state space, vector fields, trajectories, equilibria
>> and stability (both graphical and linear), nullclines, bifurcations,
>> oscillations and limit cycles, chaos and multivariable optimization, with
>> models from ecology, physiology, and other subject areas including
>> chemistry and physics. There's also a weekly computer lab that uses the
>> free, Python-based program SageMath, so our students also learn basic
>> programming.
>>
>> Student response has been tremendous, to the point where our main
>> challenge now is keeping up with demand. (If you might be interested in
>> teaching this course, please email me off-llist.) We've had many students
>> seek out opportunities to learn more about modeling, get into research that
>> uses it, ask for ways to stay involved with the course after finishing it
>> (we started an undergraduate learning assistant program for the computer
>> labs based on a combination of need and student enthusiasm) and request
>> that a third quarter be added to the sequence. (This would probably cover
>> stochastic and spatial models.) Basically, we're teaching nonlinear
>> dynamics to biology freshmen and they love it. Some combination of this
>> kind of modeling course and statistics would serve most students much
>> better than calculus.
>>
>> Jane Shevtsov
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 8:30 PM, John Grady  wrote:
>>
>>> Great conversation. I guess I'll add my two cents too. In my experience
>>> (postdoc, macroecology) I deal regularly with calculus equations, but
>>> really only insofar as I see them in a paper and need to understand what
>>> they are trying to say. I'm not integrating many equations, and I suspect
>>> the number of ecologists actually doing such work is somewhere near 1%.
>>> Sure, the theory behind most ecology - from Lotka-Volterra to modern
>>> statistical methods we use in R - is based on some amount of calculus,
>>> probability theory or linear algebra. These are all great things to know,
>>> but rarely of much actual use for the vast majority of practicing
>>> ecologists. However, what I think *is* very useful, is 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Jane Shevtsov]

For the last four years, I have been working on a new Math for Life
Scientists course at UCLA that our life sciences majors can take (along
with a stats course) instead of the usual Calculus for Life Sciences
sequence. This course dives right into dynamical modeling, with students
learning how to write basic differential equation models on the first day,
before we do any calculus, treating X' as just a piece of notation. (Most
of our students took calculus in high school but this is not a requirement
and we cover the essential concepts of calculus, which most students who
took AP Calculus have very little understanding of.) During the two-course
sequence, we teach the core concepts of calculus, including multivariable,
and linear algebra, but our main focus is on making, simulating and
analyzing differential equation models, including many ecological ones.
Topics covered include state space, vector fields, trajectories, equilibria
and stability (both graphical and linear), nullclines, bifurcations,
oscillations and limit cycles, chaos and multivariable optimization, with
models from ecology, physiology, and other subject areas including
chemistry and physics. There's also a weekly computer lab that uses the
free, Python-based program SageMath, so our students also learn basic
programming.

Student response has been tremendous, to the point where our main challenge
now is keeping up with demand. (If you might be interested in teaching this
course, please email me off-llist.) We've had many students seek out
opportunities to learn more about modeling, get into research that uses it,
ask for ways to stay involved with the course after finishing it (we
started an undergraduate learning assistant program for the computer labs
based on a combination of need and student enthusiasm) and request that a
third quarter be added to the sequence. (This would probably cover
stochastic and spatial models.) Basically, we're teaching nonlinear
dynamics to biology freshmen and they love it. Some combination of this
kind of modeling course and statistics would serve most students much
better than calculus.

Jane Shevtsov

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 8:30 PM, John Grady  wrote:

> Great conversation. I guess I'll add my two cents too. In my experience
> (postdoc, macroecology) I deal regularly with calculus equations, but
> really only insofar as I see them in a paper and need to understand what
> they are trying to say. I'm not integrating many equations, and I suspect
> the number of ecologists actually doing such work is somewhere near 1%.
> Sure, the theory behind most ecology - from Lotka-Volterra to modern
> statistical methods we use in R - is based on some amount of calculus,
> probability theory or linear algebra. These are all great things to know,
> but rarely of much actual use for the vast majority of practicing
> ecologists. However, what I think *is* very useful, is knowing how read
> and understand equations. To understand *dN/dt*, you should understand
> what a derivative is and why its such an important concept. Likewise,
> understanding integrals and limits are quite useful. A course designed to
> give biologists a basic vocabulary in calculus - filled with real
> biological examples - would be invaluable and not nearly so painful and
> mostly pointless as the calculus many of us have taken. Those classes
> basically consisted of pattern recognition (what kind of math problem is
> this?), plugging in some  algorithm you'll forget the next week, and then
> chugging away at a solution that makes little sense. Most math taught today
> is too abstract and mechanical to offer conceptual insight to biologists.
> It goes in one ear and out the other.
>
> Theoretical and computational type ecologists could certainly benefit from
> more learning, but I think a mandatory semester stressing conceptual and
> reading competency in math would be sufficient for 90+ percent of biology
> majors. The main challenge I suppose would be designing an appropriate
> curriculum and getting the right instructor to teach it.
>
> John
>
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 6:17 PM, Loretta Fisher 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello, all,
>>
>> What an interesting discussion.  I am a master's student in ecology.  I
>> am also from a very rural area in Colorado that has poor public math
>> education, and am a first generation college student from a low-income
>> family.  Calculus requirements were much of the reason I initially dropped
>> out of my undergraduate schooling in an aerospace engineering program.
>> When I finally returned to finish my undergraduate studies, I went to the
>> humanities instead of the sciences, because I had completely lost my
>> confidence in my quantitative abilities.  It has taken me a long time to
>> develop the confidence and skills to circle back to the sciences for my
>> master's degree.  That said, I don't think even my sort of experience is a
>> reason to not have calculus as a 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Loretta Fisher]

Hello, all,

What an interesting discussion.  I am a master's student in ecology.  I am
also from a very rural area in Colorado that has poor public math
education, and am a first generation college student from a low-income
family.  Calculus requirements were much of the reason I initially dropped
out of my undergraduate schooling in an aerospace engineering program.
When I finally returned to finish my undergraduate studies, I went to the
humanities instead of the sciences, because I had completely lost my
confidence in my quantitative abilities.  It has taken me a long time to
develop the confidence and skills to circle back to the sciences for my
master's degree.  That said, I don't think even my sort of experience is a
reason to not have calculus as a requirement for at least those ecology
tracks that are meant to lead to a career in academia.  Academic rigor has
become something I deeply value, and I don't feel our pity or coddling will
help students succeed in a field that requires increasing amounts of
quantitative skill.  However, I think such requirements must also be paired
with academic tutoring programs that ACTIVELY reach out to students who are
struggling, and that do so early and often.  In my opinion, it is not
enough to just have the tutoring programs be passively available to
students.  When I struggled in my calculus classes, I was not at all a lazy
student, but I was ashamed of my struggles, and I found it too embarrassing
to ask for help when no one else in my class seemed to need it.  This was
the early 2000s and I was one of probably ten female students in my
freshman calculus class at that time.  Boys in my class would make fun of
me and ask me questions like, "Why don't you just major in psychology?"  At
our school, the calculus tutors were all male, and I did not want to have
them laugh at me either, so I never went to them.  I just bit my nails in
anxiety, writing almost nothing on my calculus exams while other students
madly scribbled answers.  I think the challenge of keeping careers in
science accessible to people of all socioeconomic groups, genders,
backgrounds, etc. lies in not having a disparate negative impact on some
student populations while also not compromising academic rigor.  If these
two goals share equal priority, then I feel students can only benefit from
adding the calculus requirement.  But the goals must share equal priority
to not exacerbate or perpetuate historical patterns of exclusion from the
sciences.  If I were the chair of an ecology department, I would design it
so that any ecology students whose GPA dropped below a certain level in
calculus would be required to let the department match them with a tutor
they felt comfortable with.

-Loretta

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Kyle Whittinghill <
kyle.whittingh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I agree with the points everyone has stated so far in support of
> Calculus.  In an ideal world students would have the options calculus
> courses geared toward the environmental/life sciences rather than the
> traditionally taught ones.  There are books that are oriented for this
> purpose (i.e. Neuhauser *Calculus for Biology and Medicine*
> https://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Biology-Medicine-
> Life-Sciences/dp/0321644689). Just as many institutions offer applied
> statistics courses.
>
> More and more of ecology and environmental biology requires modeling,
> statistics or both.  My anecdotal evidence from teaching Ecology courses
> and environmental computer modeling courses is that students who have taken
> calculus (not required in either case) perform better in the population
> growth parts of an Ecology class and in computer modeling than students who
> have not had calculus.  My guess is that when surveyed students would not
> say that they used calculus in either course, despite the benefits they had
> from a better understanding of derivatives, integration, and fitting
> functions. While I don't have data to back this up, it might be an
> interesting question which someone else has researched.
>
> Developing a quantitative methods course geared towards biology majors
> would give students the directly applicable skills to the major if done
> well. While I am someone who has used a significant amount of mathematics
> in my teaching and research and personally believe the more math the
> better, I understand students are limited in the time/money they have for
> taking courses.  Therefore, I worry requiring students to take a
> quantitative methods class when they might have to take calculus and/or
> statistics anyway (for medical school, graduate school, etc.) means
> essentially requiring more courses either now or in the future for your
> majors.
>
> Kyle
>
> --
> Dr. Kyle Ann Whittinghill
> Lecturer and Undergraduate Advisor
> Department of Geology and Environmental Science
> University of Pittsburgh
> 4107 O'Hara St.
> Pittsburgh, PA 15260-3332
> Office Phone: 412-383-7052
> Office: SRCC Room 216
>

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Steve Katz]

Hi All

I have been lurking on this thread without commenting because I think 
(as others have mentioned) that questions that start "should" we do 
things a certain way are likely going to be problematic.  That said, I 
think this lack of convergence on a rationale is worrisome to me.


I want my biology students to take more than 1 year of calculus - I 
would like them to have ODE and Linear algebra at a minimum.  I also 
want them to have a basic statistics course as well as advanced courses 
(Bayesian methods, time series analysis, etc.). I want them to take 
these courses in a manner that allows them to be integrated into 
training in philosophy of science, and a whole lot of other stuff.  I 
want them to have as many tools in their tool chest as possible.


I am motivated to this position by two questions:

1) What biology will my students be doing 20 years from now when they 
will need to remain competitive for jobs?  I currently have no idea what 
it will look like.  I suspect strongly that it will look nothing like 
what I am doing now.  I base this expectation on my observation that 
what I am doing now looks nothing like the biology I was exposed to in 
my training.  I am doing mathematical and statistical methods now that 
did not exist in the literature when I was an undergrad 25 years ago.  I 
would not have been flexible enough to survive to this point, and ask 
the  questions I am asking now, if I had not had to acquire some 
mathematical tools then.


2) What are your aspirations for your students?  I want mine to be 
great.  I want mine to do great things and go where I have not even 
thought about.  If they're going to do that, I think a lot of their 
opportunities are going to be in doing integrative work, which means 
their going to have to versatile and flexible to work across 
disciplinary boundaries.  So yes, they're going to need calculus - along 
with a lot of other stuff - even if its only to understand mundane stuff 
like when to put their cold milk in their hot coffee.


Put me down for requiring a lot of calculus.  Whether we are doing this 
well now is whole other question.


THanks

SLK




On 10/19/2016 7:43 AM, John Anderson wrote:
This has been a great thread so far (not least because I am in the 
process of writing an article on the importance of Natural History in 
education, and some folks have been really good at essentially 
pointing up some of the things I really worry about). I am MOST 
interested in WHY people think that Calculus should be a broad 
requirement.  So far the arguments seem to be pretty vague -it should 
be because it "always" has been, it should be because it is some sort 
of mark of being educated, it should be because otherwise we will feel 
inferior to international students, it should be because coding, it 
should be because modelling... all very interesting, but apart from 
the last, not really speaking to the utility of Calculus in actual 
professional life.  How many of us actually use calculus in 
modelling?  Arguing that calculus is essential "because today's youth 
is learning R", or "because modern ecology is about Big Data" seems a 
bit silly, coding is not calculus, Big Data is not necessarily reduced 
to meaningful information by calculus, most students (and grad 
students) going through universities probably won't use calculus at 
all. On the other hand they WILL need to be able to write.  I was on a 
boat with a journal editor a couple of weeks back and she was 
bemoaning how the quality of manuscripts she is getting is plunging.  
Students aren't being taught basic grammar, they don't understand 
punctuation, and they have a hard time making a point.  Perhaps a 
couple of extra English classes might benefit students more than more 
higher math?  The other arguments have a weird echo of child abuse to 
them: because we were abused we will also abuse".  Given the 
distractions of financial woes, outside jobs, and the need to 
encourage our students to become well rounded and useful citizens, 
might it not be a good idea to take a really cold hard look at what we 
require?  It is rather like the emphasis in High Schools on molecular 
genetics in "college bound" Biology classes. Only a tiny fraction of 
High School students who are taught electrophoresis (at significant 
cost in money and great cost in time) will ever retain or use that 
information.  On the other hand, if they were taught to identify the 
common plants and animals around them they might be of some use to 
their regional Conservation Commission. We have proscribed what it 
means to do "science" in some very arbitrary ways which smack of 19th 
century ideas of what it meant to be a "gentleman".  There was some 
merit to that concept, but also some difficulties...  Thanks for all 
the comments, I hope this keeps going!


On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Malcolm McCallum 
> wrote:


Back in 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Kyle Whittinghill]

Hello,

I agree with the points everyone has stated so far in support of Calculus.
In an ideal world students would have the options calculus courses geared
toward the environmental/life sciences rather than the traditionally taught
ones.  There are books that are oriented for this purpose (i.e.
Neuhauser *Calculus
for Biology and Medicine*
https://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Biology-Medicine-Life-Sciences/dp/0321644689).
Just as many institutions offer applied statistics courses.

More and more of ecology and environmental biology requires modeling,
statistics or both.  My anecdotal evidence from teaching Ecology courses
and environmental computer modeling courses is that students who have taken
calculus (not required in either case) perform better in the population
growth parts of an Ecology class and in computer modeling than students who
have not had calculus.  My guess is that when surveyed students would not
say that they used calculus in either course, despite the benefits they had
from a better understanding of derivatives, integration, and fitting
functions. While I don't have data to back this up, it might be an
interesting question which someone else has researched.

Developing a quantitative methods course geared towards biology majors
would give students the directly applicable skills to the major if done
well. While I am someone who has used a significant amount of mathematics
in my teaching and research and personally believe the more math the
better, I understand students are limited in the time/money they have for
taking courses.  Therefore, I worry requiring students to take a
quantitative methods class when they might have to take calculus and/or
statistics anyway (for medical school, graduate school, etc.) means
essentially requiring more courses either now or in the future for your
majors.

Kyle

-- 
Dr. Kyle Ann Whittinghill
Lecturer and Undergraduate Advisor
Department of Geology and Environmental Science
University of Pittsburgh
4107 O'Hara St.
Pittsburgh, PA 15260-3332
Office Phone: 412-383-7052
Office: SRCC Room 216

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Malcolm McCallum]

If someone is not taking higher math, they most definitely better be taking
some philosophy courses, especially in logic.

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 6:20 PM, Andrew Wright  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I find this an interesting response given that the fundamental basis for
> creating and understanding statistical models. Linear regression is
> calculus of a form. Furthermore, creating the equations in spreadsheets
> (etc.) needed to handle big data, access and utilise hidden data and map
> data onto different geographical projections will all involve calculus.
>
> I see this as a lack of understanding in just what calculus actually is.
> However, perhaps the point here is that a 'maths for biologists' course
> shouldn't focus on one branch of maths, but address the varied needs of
> model ecologists and biodiversity researchers.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew
>
>
> --
> Andrew Wright, Ph.D.
>
> VaquitaAreBrowncoats: Where Sci-Fi meets Science, the Cosmos meets
> Conservation and Firefly meets Flipper. Shiny
> https://www.facebook.com/vaquitaarebrowncoats.
>
> "We don't have to save the world. The world is big enough to look after
> itself. What we have to be concerned about is whether or not the world we
> live in will be capable of sustaining us in it." Douglas Adams
>
> GNU Terry Pratchett
>
> On 20 October 2016 at 12:03, David Inouye  wrote:
>
>> Posting this for Erik Piikkila esp...@yahoo.com
>>
>> I would like to suggest that taking a calculus course may not be the best
>> use of a student's time.  I think math and statistics are far more
>> important.
>>
>> Being able to count, measure and determine densities, abundance, cover
>> percentages, heights, and diameters are perhaps more important skills.
>>
>> Field orientation and navigation skills using maps, aerial photos,
>> satellite images, GPS, topography, geography and geology, are also perhaps
>> more important than calculus.
>>
>>
>> Perhaps more importantly, there are other courses or topics that should
>> occupy this time slot in one semester:
>>
>>
>>- Ecosystems of the World.  How do local ecosystems fit in with other
>>ecosystems in the same region, continent, other continents.  What are the
>>similarities, differences, types, species, disturbance regimes, changes 
>> and
>>threats
>>
>>
>>
>>- Systems Theory and Application
>>
>>
>>
>>- Interdisciplinary Research
>>
>>
>>
>>- Finding Data (Hidden & Forgotten) in Archives, Libraries, Research
>>& Experimental Sites, Theses & Online and look for Reports, Theses,
>>Newsletters, Photo collections, Maps, Aerial Photos, & Databases:
>>
>>
>>
>>- Tour Libraries & Archives at home institutions and view collections
>>of historic, recent and current research
>>
>>
>>
>>- Locate & Tour Local Community Archives & Museums
>>
>>
>>
>>- Locate & Tour State & Federal Libraries & Archives
>>
>>
>>
>>- Locate & Tour State & Federal Agency Archives:  Dept of Interior
>>General Land Office Surveys 1812 - 1946
>>
>>
>>
>>- Locate & Tour Corporate Libraries & Archives
>>
>>
>>
>>- Link the above data sources and locations of data with on the
>>ground research at research and experimental sites
>>
>>
>>
>>- Long Term Ecological Research Networks (https://lternet.edu/) &
>>National Ecological Observatory Network (NEON) (
>>http://www.neonscience.org/)
>>
>>
>>
>>- Big Data (http://harvardmagazine.com/20
>>14/03/why-big-data-is-a-big-deal
>>)
>>
>>
>>
>>- Efficient Searches on Google and Google Scholar
>>
>>
>>
>>- Finding online sources of historic research and data
>>
>>
>>
>>- Satellite Imagery
>>
>>
>>
>>- Turn industrial scale data into ecological data
>>
>>
>>
>>- Using Farming and Agriculture data to study and describe changes to
>>   prairie ecosystems and native grasslands
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>- Using forest harvesting and logging data to describe forested
>>   landscape change that would compliment satellite imagery and extend the
>>   data horizon beyond 1972 and into the early part of the 20th Century
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>- Forest harvesting and logging data can also be used to describe
>>   biological legacies especially at the forest stand level
>>
>>
>> My comments are NOT meant to denigrate or devalue calculus in any way.
>> Some have suggested that calculus has only cropped up once in 20 years.  As
>> a prime example of interdisciplinary research, a calculus expert could be
>> brought into the project if and when needed.
>>
>>
>> Erik Piikkila
>>
>>
>>
>


-- 
Malcolm L. McCallum
Director of the Aquatic Resources Center
Aquaculture and Water Quality Research Scientist
School of Agriculture and Applied Sciences
Langston University
Langston, Oklahoma


Link to online CV and portfolio :
https://www.visualcv.com/malcolm-mc-callum?access=18A9RYkDGxO
Google Scholar citation page:

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Andrew Wright]

Hi all,

I find this an interesting response given that the fundamental basis for
creating and understanding statistical models. Linear regression is
calculus of a form. Furthermore, creating the equations in spreadsheets
(etc.) needed to handle big data, access and utilise hidden data and map
data onto different geographical projections will all involve calculus.

I see this as a lack of understanding in just what calculus actually is.
However, perhaps the point here is that a 'maths for biologists' course
shouldn't focus on one branch of maths, but address the varied needs of
model ecologists and biodiversity researchers.

Cheers,

Andrew


--
Andrew Wright, Ph.D.

VaquitaAreBrowncoats: Where Sci-Fi meets Science, the Cosmos meets
Conservation and Firefly meets Flipper. Shiny
https://www.facebook.com/vaquitaarebrowncoats.

"We don't have to save the world. The world is big enough to look after
itself. What we have to be concerned about is whether or not the world we
live in will be capable of sustaining us in it." Douglas Adams

GNU Terry Pratchett

On 20 October 2016 at 12:03, David Inouye  wrote:

> Posting this for Erik Piikkila esp...@yahoo.com
>
> I would like to suggest that taking a calculus course may not be the best
> use of a student's time.  I think math and statistics are far more
> important.
>
> Being able to count, measure and determine densities, abundance, cover
> percentages, heights, and diameters are perhaps more important skills.
>
> Field orientation and navigation skills using maps, aerial photos,
> satellite images, GPS, topography, geography and geology, are also perhaps
> more important than calculus.
>
>
> Perhaps more importantly, there are other courses or topics that should
> occupy this time slot in one semester:
>
>
>- Ecosystems of the World.  How do local ecosystems fit in with other
>ecosystems in the same region, continent, other continents.  What are the
>similarities, differences, types, species, disturbance regimes, changes and
>threats
>
>
>
>- Systems Theory and Application
>
>
>
>- Interdisciplinary Research
>
>
>
>- Finding Data (Hidden & Forgotten) in Archives, Libraries, Research &
>Experimental Sites, Theses & Online and look for Reports, Theses,
>Newsletters, Photo collections, Maps, Aerial Photos, & Databases:
>
>
>
>- Tour Libraries & Archives at home institutions and view collections
>of historic, recent and current research
>
>
>
>- Locate & Tour Local Community Archives & Museums
>
>
>
>- Locate & Tour State & Federal Libraries & Archives
>
>
>
>- Locate & Tour State & Federal Agency Archives:  Dept of Interior
>General Land Office Surveys 1812 - 1946
>
>
>
>- Locate & Tour Corporate Libraries & Archives
>
>
>
>- Link the above data sources and locations of data with on the ground
>research at research and experimental sites
>
>
>
>- Long Term Ecological Research Networks (https://lternet.edu/) &
>National Ecological Observatory Network (NEON) (
>http://www.neonscience.org/)
>
>
>
>- Big Data (http://harvardmagazine.com/2014/03/why-big-data-is-a-big-
>deal)
>
>
>
>- Efficient Searches on Google and Google Scholar
>
>
>
>- Finding online sources of historic research and data
>
>
>
>- Satellite Imagery
>
>
>
>- Turn industrial scale data into ecological data
>
>
>
>- Using Farming and Agriculture data to study and describe changes to
>   prairie ecosystems and native grasslands
>
>
>
>
>- Using forest harvesting and logging data to describe forested
>   landscape change that would compliment satellite imagery and extend the
>   data horizon beyond 1972 and into the early part of the 20th Century
>
>
>
>
>- Forest harvesting and logging data can also be used to describe
>   biological legacies especially at the forest stand level
>
>
> My comments are NOT meant to denigrate or devalue calculus in any way.
> Some have suggested that calculus has only cropped up once in 20 years.  As
> a prime example of interdisciplinary research, a calculus expert could be
> brought into the project if and when needed.
>
>
> Erik Piikkila
>
>
>

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[David Inouye]

Posting this for Erik Piikkila esp...@yahoo.com

I would like to suggest that taking a calculus course may not be the 
best use of a student's time.  I think math and statistics are far more 
important.
Being able to count, measure and determine densities, abundance, cover 
percentages, heights, and diameters are perhaps more important skills.
Field orientation and navigation skills using maps, aerial photos, 
satellite images, GPS, topography, geography and geology, are also 
perhaps more important than calculus.
Perhaps more importantly, there are other courses or topics that should 
occupy this time slot in one semester:


 * Ecosystems of the World.  How do local ecosystems fit in with other
   ecosystems in the same region, continent, other continents.  What
   are the similarities, differences, types, species, disturbance
   regimes, changes and threats

 * Systems Theory and Application

 * Interdisciplinary Research

 * Finding Data (Hidden & Forgotten) in Archives, Libraries, Research &
   Experimental Sites, Theses & Online and look for Reports, Theses,
   Newsletters, Photo collections, Maps, Aerial Photos, & Databases:

 * Tour Libraries & Archives at home institutions and view collections
   of historic, recent and current research

 * Locate & Tour Local Community Archives & Museums

 * Locate & Tour State & Federal Libraries & Archives

 * Locate & Tour State & Federal Agency Archives:  Dept of Interior
   General Land Office Surveys 1812 - 1946

 * Locate & Tour Corporate Libraries & Archives


 * Link the above data sources and locations of data with on the ground
   research at research and experimental sites

 * Long Term Ecological Research Networks (https://lternet.edu/) &
   National Ecological Observatory Network (NEON)
   (http://www.neonscience.org/)

 * Big Data (http://harvardmagazine.com/2014/03/why-big-data-is-a-big-deal)

 * Efficient Searches on Google and Google Scholar

 * Finding online sources of historic research and data

 * Satellite Imagery


 * Turn industrial scale data into ecological data

 o Using Farming and Agriculture data to study and describe changes
   to prairie ecosystems and native grasslands



 o Using forest harvesting and logging data to describe forested
   landscape change that would compliment satellite imagery and
   extend the data horizon beyond 1972 and into the early part of
   the 20th Century



 o Forest harvesting and logging data can also be used to describe
   biological legacies especially at the forest stand level

My comments are NOT meant to denigrate or devalue calculus in any way. 
 Some have suggested that calculus has only cropped up once in 20 
years.  As a prime example of interdisciplinary research, a calculus 
expert could be brought into the project if and when needed.

Erik Piikkila

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[LITTLES,CHANDA JONES]

Hi All,


I have enjoyed reading the various perspectives and think the overall 
discussion is beneficial.


I am a recent PhD graduate and had the opportunity to participate in an NSF 
Integrative Graduate Education and Research Traineeship (IGERT) focused on 
building more interdisciplinary scientist, specifically across the fields of 
math, statistics, geology, and ecology. Part of the curriculum required all 
students to take coursework outside their respective disciplines. As an 
ecologist, I needed to take graduate-level courses in statistics, geology, and 
mathematics. While my former degrees (BS and MS) had provided sufficient 
prerequisites in statistics and geology, I needed to take Calculus II, Linear 
Algebra, and Differential Equations just to qualify for the graduate course in 
Mathematical Modeling. Calculus II is likely not "fun" for most students 
majoring in biology/ecology, but, it is substantially more difficult when it 
has been over 5 years since you've taken Calculus I.


I will never integrate functions by-hand as a regular part of my job. However, 
understanding fundamental math concepts, like function convergence/divergence 
and the Taylor Series, seems important for any ecologist working with 
mathematical models. In answer to the original question of "...whether we 
should restructure the mathematics and statistics requirements for our 
biology/ecology majors?" I would say, "Yes!"


If you want broadly trained ecologists/biologists with the greatest opportunity 
for success in diverse career paths, make core Mathematics and Statistics 
courses part of the undergraduate curriculum. It is much easier to take these 
courses as an undergrad than trying to fill in gaps as a graduate student that 
is also juggling research responsibilities.


Hope this helps!


Chanda


From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news 
<ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU> on behalf of John Anderson <jander...@coa.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 10:43:40 AM
To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology 
Majors?

This has been a great thread so far (not least because I am in the process of 
writing an article on the importance of Natural History in education, and some 
folks have been really good at essentially pointing up some of the things I 
really worry about). I am MOST interested in WHY people think that Calculus 
should be a broad requirement.  So far the arguments seem to be pretty vague 
-it should be because it "always" has been, it should be because it is some 
sort of mark of being educated, it should be because otherwise we will feel 
inferior to international students, it should be because coding, it should be 
because modelling... all very interesting, but apart from the last, not really 
speaking to the utility of Calculus in actual professional life.  How many of 
us actually use calculus in modelling?  Arguing that calculus is essential 
"because today's youth is learning R", or "because modern ecology is about Big 
Data" seems a bit silly, coding is not calculus, Big Data is not necessarily 
reduced to meaningful information by calculus, most students (and grad 
students) going through universities probably won't use calculus at all. On the 
other hand they WILL need to be able to write.  I was on a boat with a journal 
editor a couple of weeks back and she was bemoaning how the quality of 
manuscripts she is getting is plunging.  Students aren't being taught basic 
grammar, they don't understand punctuation, and they have a hard time making a 
point.  Perhaps a couple of extra English classes might benefit students more 
than more higher math?  The other arguments have a weird echo of child abuse to 
them: because we were abused we will also abuse".  Given the distractions of 
financial woes, outside jobs, and the need to encourage our students to become 
well rounded and useful citizens, might it not be a good idea to take a really 
cold hard look at what we require?  It is rather like the emphasis in High 
Schools on molecular genetics in "college bound" Biology classes. Only a tiny 
fraction of High School students who are taught electrophoresis (at significant 
cost in money and great cost in time) will ever retain or use that information. 
 On the other hand, if they were taught to identify the common plants and 
animals around them they might be of some use to their regional Conservation 
Commission. We have proscribed what it means to do "science" in some very 
arbitrary ways which smack of 19th century ideas of what it meant to be a 
"gentleman".  There was some merit to that concept, but also some 
difficulties...  Thanks for all the comments, I hope this keeps going!

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Malcolm McCallum 
<malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com<mailt

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[John Anderson]

This has been a great thread so far (not least because I am in the process
of writing an article on the importance of Natural History in education,
and some folks have been really good at essentially pointing up some of the
things I really worry about). I am MOST interested in WHY people think that
Calculus should be a broad requirement.  So far the arguments seem to be
pretty vague -it should be because it "always" has been, it should be
because it is some sort of mark of being educated, it should be because
otherwise we will feel inferior to international students, it should be
because coding, it should be because modelling... all very interesting, but
apart from the last, not really speaking to the utility of Calculus in
actual professional life.  How many of us actually use calculus in
modelling?  Arguing that calculus is essential "because today's youth is
learning R", or "because modern ecology is about Big Data" seems a bit
silly, coding is not calculus, Big Data is not necessarily reduced to
meaningful information by calculus, most students (and grad students) going
through universities probably won't use calculus at all. On the other hand
they WILL need to be able to write.  I was on a boat with a journal editor
a couple of weeks back and she was bemoaning how the quality of manuscripts
she is getting is plunging.  Students aren't being taught basic grammar,
they don't understand punctuation, and they have a hard time making a
point.  Perhaps a couple of extra English classes might benefit students
more than more higher math?  The other arguments have a weird echo of child
abuse to them: because we were abused we will also abuse".  Given the
distractions of financial woes, outside jobs, and the need to encourage our
students to become well rounded and useful citizens, might it not be a good
idea to take a really cold hard look at what we require?  It is rather like
the emphasis in High Schools on molecular genetics in "college bound"
Biology classes. Only a tiny fraction of High School students who are
taught electrophoresis (at significant cost in money and great cost in
time) will ever retain or use that information.  On the other hand, if they
were taught to identify the common plants and animals around them they
might be of some use to their regional Conservation Commission. We have
proscribed what it means to do "science" in some very arbitrary ways which
smack of 19th century ideas of what it meant to be a "gentleman".  There
was some merit to that concept, but also some difficulties...  Thanks for
all the comments, I hope this keeps going!

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Malcolm McCallum <
malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Back in the 1960s, when my Dad started junior college, freshman math...
> that everyone was required to take, was calculus I.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 3:55 AM, Richard Shefferson 
> wrote:
>
>> I normally do not contribute to ECOLOG (my apologies...), but thought I
>> should put my own 2 cents in on this one. I work in Japan at a major
>> university (although I am American and educated for the most part in the
>> US), and part of my job involves admissions into our international BS
>> program. We take applications from all over the world, and interview
>> students. As a part of this process, we generally quiz students in their
>> understanding of mathematics. What has shocked me in this regard is that
>> American students applying to our program, who include amazingly smart
>> students with top SAT scores, understand mathematics at a far lower level
>> than students from the entire rest of the planet (this is not an
>> exaggeration). European and Asian students applying, as high school
>> students, into out undergrad degree already understand calculus and
>> probability theory at levels I've only seen in American 3rd or 4th year
>> college math majors. I knew before moving to Japan that American students
>> were a little behind when it comes to STEM education, and in terms of the
>> basic sciences I think they are just a little behind. But in terms of
>> mathematics, they are at the bottom of cliff, and the rest of the world is
>> at the top of that cliff. As a personal aside, as an immigrant to the US, I
>> have also been strongly dismayed at the fact that the simplest math
>> questions always result in someone asking me for the answer. Simple
>> conversions from IMperial to metric, and so forth.
>>
>> So, to end my little rant, I would say that a discussion of whether to
>> end the teaching of calculus to ecology majors only reinforces my own
>> belief that American students are moving even further below the rest of the
>> world when it comes to STEM education.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Rich Shefferson
>>
>>
>> New book on the Evolution of Senescence in the Tree of Life
>> http://tinyurl.com/SenescenceBook
>>
>> Sent from my NSA tracking device
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 9:09 AM, Neufeld, Howard S. <
>> neufel...@appstate.edu> 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Malcolm McCallum]

Back in the 1960s, when my Dad started junior college, freshman math...
that everyone was required to take, was calculus I.



On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 3:55 AM, Richard Shefferson 
wrote:

> I normally do not contribute to ECOLOG (my apologies...), but thought I
> should put my own 2 cents in on this one. I work in Japan at a major
> university (although I am American and educated for the most part in the
> US), and part of my job involves admissions into our international BS
> program. We take applications from all over the world, and interview
> students. As a part of this process, we generally quiz students in their
> understanding of mathematics. What has shocked me in this regard is that
> American students applying to our program, who include amazingly smart
> students with top SAT scores, understand mathematics at a far lower level
> than students from the entire rest of the planet (this is not an
> exaggeration). European and Asian students applying, as high school
> students, into out undergrad degree already understand calculus and
> probability theory at levels I've only seen in American 3rd or 4th year
> college math majors. I knew before moving to Japan that American students
> were a little behind when it comes to STEM education, and in terms of the
> basic sciences I think they are just a little behind. But in terms of
> mathematics, they are at the bottom of cliff, and the rest of the world is
> at the top of that cliff. As a personal aside, as an immigrant to the US, I
> have also been strongly dismayed at the fact that the simplest math
> questions always result in someone asking me for the answer. Simple
> conversions from IMperial to metric, and so forth.
>
> So, to end my little rant, I would say that a discussion of whether to end
> the teaching of calculus to ecology majors only reinforces my own belief
> that American students are moving even further below the rest of the world
> when it comes to STEM education.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Rich Shefferson
>
>
> New book on the Evolution of Senescence in the Tree of Life
> http://tinyurl.com/SenescenceBook
>
> Sent from my NSA tracking device
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 9:09 AM, Neufeld, Howard S. <
> neufel...@appstate.edu> wrote:
>
>> Dear All -
>>
>>
>>
>> I am participating in a study here at Appalachian State University about
>> whether we should restructure the mathematics and statistics requirements
>> for our biology/ecology majors. For example, should we require all majors
>> to take an entire semester of calculus?
>>
>>
>>
>> I have written an explanation of why we are looking into this, and you
>> can read the essay by going to this link on Google Drive:
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxpSVO5IUz-EMGdwU1lD
>> NjhSRFE?usp=sharing
>>
>>
>>
>> I would welcome comments from those interested in this subject, which
>> would help us out here at Appalachian State in our discussions of this
>> important subject.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Howie Neufeld
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Howard S. Neufeld, Professor
>> Director, Southern Appalachian Environmental Research and Education Center 
>> (SAEREC)
>> Chair, Appalachian Interdisciplinary Atmospheric Research Group (AppalAIR)
>>
>> Mailing Address:
>>Department of Biology
>>572 Rivers St.
>>Appalachian State University
>>Boone, NC 28608
>>Tel: 828-262-2683; Fax 828-262-2127
>>
>> Websites:
>> Academic: http://biology.appstate.edu/faculty-staff/104
>> Personal: http://www.appstate.edu/~neufeldhs/index.html
>> SAEREC: http://saerec.appstate.edu
>> AppalAIR: http://appalair.appstate.edu
>> Fall Colors:
>>   Academic: http://biology.appstate.edu/fall-colors
>>   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FallColorGuy
>>
>>
>


-- 
Malcolm L. McCallum
Director of the Aquatic Resources Center
Aquaculture and Water Quality Research Scientist
School of Agriculture and Applied Sciences
Langston University
Langston, Oklahoma


Link to online CV and portfolio :
https://www.visualcv.com/malcolm-mc-callum?access=18A9RYkDGxO
Google Scholar citation page:
https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=lOHMjvYJ=en
Academia.edu:
https://ui-springfield.academia.edu/MalcolmMcCallum/Analytics#/activity/overview?_k=wknchj
Researchgate:
 https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Malcolm_Mccallum/reputation?ev=prf_rep_tab

Ratemyprofessor: http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=706874

*Confidentiality Notice:* This e-mail message, including any attachments,
is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain
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all copies of the original message.

“*Nothing is more priceless and worthy of preservation than the rich array
of animal life with which 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Richard Shefferson]

I normally do not contribute to ECOLOG (my apologies...), but thought I
should put my own 2 cents in on this one. I work in Japan at a major
university (although I am American and educated for the most part in the
US), and part of my job involves admissions into our international BS
program. We take applications from all over the world, and interview
students. As a part of this process, we generally quiz students in their
understanding of mathematics. What has shocked me in this regard is that
American students applying to our program, who include amazingly smart
students with top SAT scores, understand mathematics at a far lower level
than students from the entire rest of the planet (this is not an
exaggeration). European and Asian students applying, as high school
students, into out undergrad degree already understand calculus and
probability theory at levels I've only seen in American 3rd or 4th year
college math majors. I knew before moving to Japan that American students
were a little behind when it comes to STEM education, and in terms of the
basic sciences I think they are just a little behind. But in terms of
mathematics, they are at the bottom of cliff, and the rest of the world is
at the top of that cliff. As a personal aside, as an immigrant to the US, I
have also been strongly dismayed at the fact that the simplest math
questions always result in someone asking me for the answer. Simple
conversions from IMperial to metric, and so forth.

So, to end my little rant, I would say that a discussion of whether to end
the teaching of calculus to ecology majors only reinforces my own belief
that American students are moving even further below the rest of the world
when it comes to STEM education.

Sincerely,

Rich Shefferson


New book on the Evolution of Senescence in the Tree of Life
http://tinyurl.com/SenescenceBook

Sent from my NSA tracking device

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 9:09 AM, Neufeld, Howard S. 
wrote:

> Dear All -
>
>
>
> I am participating in a study here at Appalachian State University about
> whether we should restructure the mathematics and statistics requirements
> for our biology/ecology majors. For example, should we require all majors
> to take an entire semester of calculus?
>
>
>
> I have written an explanation of why we are looking into this, and you can
> read the essay by going to this link on Google Drive:
>
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxpSVO5IUz-
> EMGdwU1lDNjhSRFE?usp=sharing
>
>
>
> I would welcome comments from those interested in this subject, which
> would help us out here at Appalachian State in our discussions of this
> important subject.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Howie Neufeld
>
> --
> Dr. Howard S. Neufeld, Professor
> Director, Southern Appalachian Environmental Research and Education Center 
> (SAEREC)
> Chair, Appalachian Interdisciplinary Atmospheric Research Group (AppalAIR)
>
> Mailing Address:
>Department of Biology
>572 Rivers St.
>Appalachian State University
>Boone, NC 28608
>Tel: 828-262-2683; Fax 828-262-2127
>
> Websites:
> Academic: http://biology.appstate.edu/faculty-staff/104
> Personal: http://www.appstate.edu/~neufeldhs/index.html
> SAEREC: http://saerec.appstate.edu
> AppalAIR: http://appalair.appstate.edu
> Fall Colors:
>   Academic: http://biology.appstate.edu/fall-colors
>   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FallColorGuy
>
>

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[David Schneider]

Hi Howie Neufeld,

I'm going to suggest that rather than requiring a particular
course, such as calculus, that you identify a set of courses that 
address

quantitative reasoning based on the logic of mathematics
as it applies to measured quantities.

This set might include calculus courses that emphasize practical
applications of the rules of calculus.
It might include statistics course that focus on writing the
model instead of 'name the test' or 'get the pvalue.'
It might include a course in experimental design.
It might include physics or chemistry courses were there is
application to biology.
It might include a course in physiology, a discipline with
a strong and long established quantitative basis.
It might include a course in genetics where the quantitative
analysis is central.
It might include a course in network theory, as it applies
to biological systems.
And almost any course labelled 'modelling' would be part
of such a list.

Any list of course will be constrained to what is on the go
at any one university, or what can be arranged at a distance.

Good luck!
David S

On 2016-10-18 17:34, Andrew Wright wrote:

Hi all,

I agree with Carrie too and I already responded to Howard, but he's my
response again for you all:

The answer is simply 'yes'. Although biology was the science for
non-mathematicians back in the day, more and more modelling is coming
into the discipline and students will need a reasonable mathematical
foundation to cope in biology in the future. Even if only a basic
foundation is provided, this will help students understand innovative
statistical approaches and more complex models that touch on their
fields, even if they are unable to use them themselves.

More generally there should be more maths requirements in Biology.
Otherwise students will simply fall behind.

Andrew

--
Andrew Wright, Ph.D.

VaquitaAreBrowncoats: Where Sci-Fi meets Science, the Cosmos meets
Conservation and Firefly meets Flipper. Shiny
https://www.facebook.com/vaquitaarebrowncoats.

"We don't have to save the world. The world is big enough to look
after itself. What we have to be concerned about is whether or not the
world we live in will be capable of sustaining us in it." Douglas
Adams

GNU Terry Pratchett
On 19 October 2016 at 06:20, John Anderson  wrote:


I am fascinated by this discussion and would love to hear more
points of view.  As far as carrie's excellent post, I guess I am not
sure why one would expect a Calculus course to do her 6 points any
more than many other classes?  I was required to take two terms of
calculus as an undergrad Zoology major back when there were such
majors, plus a year of physics.  We had to take a year of physical
Chemistry before we could take Biology, and then could only enroll
in Biology if we simultaneously took Organic Chem.  It always seemed
to me that a LOT of these classes were more about getting rid of
people than educating them.  Weirdly, stats was NOT required.  In
all the years since I have used calculus (briefly) in a course on
theoretical population biology, I use Chemistry primarily when i
teach physiology, but professionally I use Stats all the time.
Talking with colleagues, this pattern seems by no means unique.
Thoughts?

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Joseph Russell
 wrote:

I agree with Carrie here! When I was a Marine Biology undergrad at
Stockton University in NJ, we were required to take two semesters of
physics. However, the physics I and II courses that we took were not
the same as would have been taken by a physics major. Our Physics
courses were titled "physics for life sciences" which narrowed down
the concepts to those that applied to people in the life sciences
field. I believe the calculus courses that we were required to take
were standard calculus, but I could see something like this working
as well, where the calculus courses would not be like a calculus
course taken by a math major, but rather, the curriculum would be
designed so that the concepts and learning objectives would suit the
field of study. Carrie has provided an excellent list below with the
6 points of valuable competencies for prospective biologists.

JOSEPH RUSSELL, MNR

_Wildlife Management and Recreational Planning Research Fellow_

Stockton University

Galloway, NJ 08205

(609) 287-0596 [9]

joseph.russ...@stockton.edu

www.stockton.edu [10]
Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 18, 2016, at 10:18 AM, Carrie Eaton  wrote:

Hi all,

I responded with a few details already to Howard.  But I’ll just
generally say that if you are thinking about curricular redesign,
I’d like to suggest backward design based on concepts and
competencies that employers need and which have been well identified
by many national level reports. For example, Vision and Change.
Vision and Change identifies 6 vital competencies for all biology
students:

1.  ABILITY TO APPLY THE PROCESS OF SCIENCE

2.  ABILITY TO USE QUANTITATIVE 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Malcolm McCallum]

It depends.

First of all, what do you mean by ecology.
If the person is working in theoretical domains, it is essential.
If the person is working in applied domains, it may be useful.
IF the person considers himself-herself an ecologist, although the person
is actually an organismal biology such as a zoologist or botanist, it might
be largely useless.

My view of math is that you keep taking it until you stop getting C's.
If you end up taking some extremely high math course and get a C, people
will respond "wow, you took that!"
No one will ask "why did you only get a C."
Well, maybe  some would, but most won't!

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 12:20 PM, John Anderson  wrote:

> I am fascinated by this discussion and would love to hear more points of
> view.  As far as carrie's excellent post, I guess I am not sure why one
> would expect a Calculus course to do her 6 points any more than many other
> classes?  I was required to take two terms of calculus as an undergrad
> Zoology major back when there were such majors, plus a year of physics.  We
> had to take a year of physical Chemistry before we could take Biology, and
> then could only enroll in Biology if we simultaneously took Organic Chem.
> It always seemed to me that a LOT of these classes were more about getting
> rid of people than educating them.  Weirdly, stats was NOT required.  In
> all the years since I have used calculus (briefly) in a course on
> theoretical population biology, I use Chemistry primarily when i teach
> physiology, but professionally I use Stats all the time.  Talking with
> colleagues, this pattern seems by no means unique.  Thoughts?
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Joseph Russell <
> josephdrussel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree with Carrie here! When I was a Marine Biology undergrad at
>> Stockton University in NJ, we were required to take two semesters of
>> physics. However, the physics I and II courses that we took were not the
>> same as would have been taken by a physics major. Our Physics courses were
>> titled "physics for life sciences" which narrowed down the concepts to
>> those that applied to people in the life sciences field. I believe the
>> calculus courses that we were required to take were standard calculus, but
>> I could see something like this working as well, where the calculus courses
>> would not be like a calculus course taken by a math major, but rather, the
>> curriculum would be designed so that the concepts and learning objectives
>> would suit the field of study. Carrie has provided an excellent list below
>> with the 6 points of valuable competencies for prospective biologists.
>>
>> *Joseph Russell, MNR*
>>
>> *Wildlife Management and Recreational Planning Research Fellow*
>>
>> Stockton University
>>
>> Galloway, NJ 08205
>>
>> (609) 287-0596
>>
>> joseph.russ...@stockton.edu
>>
>> *www.stockton.edu *
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Oct 18, 2016, at 10:18 AM, Carrie Eaton  wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I responded with a few details already to Howard.  But I’ll just
>> generally say that if you are thinking about curricular redesign, I’d like
>> to suggest backward design based on concepts and competencies that
>> employers need and which have been well identified by many national level
>> reports. For example, Vision and Change.  Vision and Change identifies 6
>> vital competencies for all biology students:
>>
>> 1.  ABILITY TO APPLY THE PROCESS OF SCIENCE
>>
>> 2.  ABILITY TO USE QUANTITATIVE REASONING
>>
>> 3.  ABILITY TO USE MODELING AND SIMULATION
>>
>> 4.  ABILITY TO TAP INTO THE INTERDISCIPLINARY NATURE OF SCIENCE
>>
>> 5.  ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE AND COLLABORATE WITH OTHER DISCIPLINES
>>
>> 6.  ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SCIENCE AND
>> SOCIETY
>>
>>
>>
>> Well-designed Calculus courses can help you reach many of these goals.
>> More traditional courses in calculus may not meet these goals. I encourage
>> you to consider if you advocate (as you do below) for its exclusion, that
>> you consider alternatives to help students meet these same competencies or
>> consider reaching out to your colleagues in mathematics (which I know well)
>> to brainstorm how to better meet the needs of your department.
>>
>>
>>
>> Carrie
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [
>> mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU ] *On Behalf
>> Of *Neufeld, Howard S.
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 17, 2016 8:09 PM
>> *To:* ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
>> *Subject:* [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology
>> Majors?
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear All -
>>
>>
>>
>> I am participating in a study here at Appalachian State University about
>> whether we should restructure the mathematics and statistics requirements
>> for our biology/ecology majors. For example, should we require all majors
>> to take an entire semester of calculus?
>>
>>
>>
>> I have written an 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Max Taub]

I will avoid the more difficult question of what SHOULD be done with the
easier question of what we do.

We require all Bio majors to take a statistics course early on. That is a
prerequisite to the sophomore Methods in Ecology and Evolution course.  THe
Methods course is required for the major, and is a required prerequisite
for upper-level ecology and evolution courses.That is where they really
learn statistics as typically applied to biology. Students progress A LOT
in this course- from vaguely remembering a few concepts from their
statistics course to making appropriate decisions on analyzing complex
datasets and interpreting results (both from their own analyses and those
in papers).

What we have not done as carefully as we might is to ensure that the
upper-level courses continue to reinforce these skills.


Calculus is required by us for the B.S., but not for the B.A. It is not a
prerequisite for any of the Bio classes. As far as I know it is rarely (if
ever) built upon in our upper-level classes. I personally don't see why it
should be required if we aren't doing anything with that knowledge
(nonwithstanding that calculus is fascinating and one of the most important
developments in humanity's ability to understand and think about the
world).

OK, I think I have a perspective now on what should be done- if a course in
calculus or stats or whatever is just going to stand by itself and not be
integrated with anything else in the curriculum, don't bother.

Max Taub

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 7:09 PM, Neufeld, Howard S. 
wrote:

> Dear All -
>
>
>
> I am participating in a study here at Appalachian State University about
> whether we should restructure the mathematics and statistics requirements
> for our biology/ecology majors. For example, should we require all majors
> to take an entire semester of calculus?
>
>
>
> I have written an explanation of why we are looking into this, and you can
> read the essay by going to this link on Google Drive:
>
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxpSVO5IUz-EMGdwU1lD
> NjhSRFE?usp=sharing
>
>
>
> I would welcome comments from those interested in this subject, which
> would help us out here at Appalachian State in our discussions of this
> important subject.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Howie Neufeld
>
> --
> Dr. Howard S. Neufeld, Professor
> Director, Southern Appalachian Environmental Research and Education Center 
> (SAEREC)
> Chair, Appalachian Interdisciplinary Atmospheric Research Group (AppalAIR)
>
> Mailing Address:
>Department of Biology
>572 Rivers St.
>Appalachian State University
>Boone, NC 28608
>Tel: 828-262-2683; Fax 828-262-2127
>
> Websites:
> Academic: http://biology.appstate.edu/faculty-staff/104
> Personal: http://www.appstate.edu/~neufeldhs/index.html
> SAEREC: http://saerec.appstate.edu
> AppalAIR: http://appalair.appstate.edu
> Fall Colors:
>   Academic: http://biology.appstate.edu/fall-colors
>   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FallColorGuy
>
>


-- 
Daniel Taub
Professor of Biology
Southwestern University
1001 East University Ave
Georgetown TX 78626 USA
Tel: 1-512-863-1583
ta...@southwestern.edu

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Matthew McTammany]

Good afternoon, John et al. I appreciate your question and reflection on
the value of calculus to biology students. In the end, I think mathematics
courses taken by biology majors lack application and relevance to most
areas of biology, but the information and perspective offered from
mathematics education (statistics, calculus, and differential equations
would be my recommendations) is critically important in biology and
becoming more so in my experience. I came across this BBC story the other
day and think people might enjoy it, as it is relevant to this discussion (
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-37630414).

But here's my perspective... I have felt for years that my background in
mathematics and modeling from undergraduate were important to my work as an
ecosystem ecologist, but I doubted the utility of mathematics to your
average undergraduate biology major. That is until I began advising an
applied math and biology double major and saw how she can envision
processes as models and mathematical expressions that can be relatively
simple to program in R or Python. After recently attending the NIMBioS
Undergraduate Research Conference at the Interface of Mathematics and
Biology with her, I am more convinced than ever of the importance of
calculus and statistics for all biology majors, whether students intend to
study ecology or medicine or any other aspect of biology. Most of the
presentations at the conference, all by undergraduates, were about medical
situations (epidemiology, disease spreading in organisms, wound healing,
molecular cascades and regulation, genomics, etc.), but a good deal were
about ecology (quantitative food webs, disturbance ecology, metabolism). In
general, most of them were using large data sets, which is the future of
biology in so many areas. As an anecdote to support this, my department's
faculty now includes scholars learning to handle and analyze incredibly
large datasets in their research on transcriptomics, molecular evolution
and systematics, and ecological monitoring. Not every field of biology
intersects as much with mathematics and computer science, but I feel that
reducing or eliminating mathematics education, especially calculus, from
biology majors would be a mistake and a step in the wrong direction given
the direction biology and science in general is going toward using
mathematics, modeling, and computer science to explore and understand
biology.

My $0.02... Matt

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:20 PM, John Anderson  wrote:

> I am fascinated by this discussion and would love to hear more points of
> view.  As far as carrie's excellent post, I guess I am not sure why one
> would expect a Calculus course to do her 6 points any more than many other
> classes?  I was required to take two terms of calculus as an undergrad
> Zoology major back when there were such majors, plus a year of physics.  We
> had to take a year of physical Chemistry before we could take Biology, and
> then could only enroll in Biology if we simultaneously took Organic Chem.
> It always seemed to me that a LOT of these classes were more about getting
> rid of people than educating them.  Weirdly, stats was NOT required.  In
> all the years since I have used calculus (briefly) in a course on
> theoretical population biology, I use Chemistry primarily when i teach
> physiology, but professionally I use Stats all the time.  Talking with
> colleagues, this pattern seems by no means unique.  Thoughts?
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Joseph Russell <
> josephdrussel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree with Carrie here! When I was a Marine Biology undergrad at
>> Stockton University in NJ, we were required to take two semesters of
>> physics. However, the physics I and II courses that we took were not the
>> same as would have been taken by a physics major. Our Physics courses were
>> titled "physics for life sciences" which narrowed down the concepts to
>> those that applied to people in the life sciences field. I believe the
>> calculus courses that we were required to take were standard calculus, but
>> I could see something like this working as well, where the calculus courses
>> would not be like a calculus course taken by a math major, but rather, the
>> curriculum would be designed so that the concepts and learning objectives
>> would suit the field of study. Carrie has provided an excellent list below
>> with the 6 points of valuable competencies for prospective biologists.
>>
>> *Joseph Russell, MNR*
>>
>> *Wildlife Management and Recreational Planning Research Fellow*
>>
>> Stockton University
>>
>> Galloway, NJ 08205
>>
>> (609) 287-0596
>>
>> joseph.russ...@stockton.edu
>>
>> *www.stockton.edu *
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Oct 18, 2016, at 10:18 AM, Carrie Eaton  wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I responded with a few details already to Howard.  But I’ll just
>> generally say that if you are thinking about 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Andrew Wright]

Hi all,

I agree with Carrie too and I already responded to Howard, but he's my
response again for you all:

The answer is simply 'yes'. Although biology was the science for
non-mathematicians back in the day, more and more modelling is coming into
the discipline and students will need a reasonable mathematical foundation
to cope in biology in the future. Even if only a basic foundation is
provided, this will help students understand innovative statistical
approaches and more complex models that touch on their fields, even if they
are unable to use them themselves.

More generally there should be more maths requirements in Biology.
Otherwise students will simply fall behind.

Andrew


--
Andrew Wright, Ph.D.

VaquitaAreBrowncoats: Where Sci-Fi meets Science, the Cosmos meets
Conservation and Firefly meets Flipper. Shiny
https://www.facebook.com/vaquitaarebrowncoats.

"We don't have to save the world. The world is big enough to look after
itself. What we have to be concerned about is whether or not the world we
live in will be capable of sustaining us in it." Douglas Adams

GNU Terry Pratchett

On 19 October 2016 at 06:20, John Anderson  wrote:

> I am fascinated by this discussion and would love to hear more points of
> view.  As far as carrie's excellent post, I guess I am not sure why one
> would expect a Calculus course to do her 6 points any more than many other
> classes?  I was required to take two terms of calculus as an undergrad
> Zoology major back when there were such majors, plus a year of physics.  We
> had to take a year of physical Chemistry before we could take Biology, and
> then could only enroll in Biology if we simultaneously took Organic Chem.
> It always seemed to me that a LOT of these classes were more about getting
> rid of people than educating them.  Weirdly, stats was NOT required.  In
> all the years since I have used calculus (briefly) in a course on
> theoretical population biology, I use Chemistry primarily when i teach
> physiology, but professionally I use Stats all the time.  Talking with
> colleagues, this pattern seems by no means unique.  Thoughts?
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Joseph Russell <
> josephdrussel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree with Carrie here! When I was a Marine Biology undergrad at
>> Stockton University in NJ, we were required to take two semesters of
>> physics. However, the physics I and II courses that we took were not the
>> same as would have been taken by a physics major. Our Physics courses were
>> titled "physics for life sciences" which narrowed down the concepts to
>> those that applied to people in the life sciences field. I believe the
>> calculus courses that we were required to take were standard calculus, but
>> I could see something like this working as well, where the calculus courses
>> would not be like a calculus course taken by a math major, but rather, the
>> curriculum would be designed so that the concepts and learning objectives
>> would suit the field of study. Carrie has provided an excellent list below
>> with the 6 points of valuable competencies for prospective biologists.
>>
>> *Joseph Russell, MNR*
>>
>> *Wildlife Management and Recreational Planning Research Fellow*
>>
>> Stockton University
>>
>> Galloway, NJ 08205
>>
>> (609) 287-0596
>>
>> joseph.russ...@stockton.edu
>>
>> *www.stockton.edu *
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Oct 18, 2016, at 10:18 AM, Carrie Eaton  wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I responded with a few details already to Howard.  But I’ll just
>> generally say that if you are thinking about curricular redesign, I’d like
>> to suggest backward design based on concepts and competencies that
>> employers need and which have been well identified by many national level
>> reports. For example, Vision and Change.  Vision and Change identifies 6
>> vital competencies for all biology students:
>>
>> 1.  ABILITY TO APPLY THE PROCESS OF SCIENCE
>>
>> 2.  ABILITY TO USE QUANTITATIVE REASONING
>>
>> 3.  ABILITY TO USE MODELING AND SIMULATION
>>
>> 4.  ABILITY TO TAP INTO THE INTERDISCIPLINARY NATURE OF SCIENCE
>>
>> 5.  ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE AND COLLABORATE WITH OTHER DISCIPLINES
>>
>> 6.  ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SCIENCE AND
>> SOCIETY
>>
>>
>>
>> Well-designed Calculus courses can help you reach many of these goals.
>> More traditional courses in calculus may not meet these goals. I encourage
>> you to consider if you advocate (as you do below) for its exclusion, that
>> you consider alternatives to help students meet these same competencies or
>> consider reaching out to your colleagues in mathematics (which I know well)
>> to brainstorm how to better meet the needs of your department.
>>
>>
>>
>> Carrie
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [
>> mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU ] *On Behalf
>> Of *Neufeld, Howard S.
>> *Sent:* 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[John Anderson]

I am fascinated by this discussion and would love to hear more points of
view.  As far as carrie's excellent post, I guess I am not sure why one
would expect a Calculus course to do her 6 points any more than many other
classes?  I was required to take two terms of calculus as an undergrad
Zoology major back when there were such majors, plus a year of physics.  We
had to take a year of physical Chemistry before we could take Biology, and
then could only enroll in Biology if we simultaneously took Organic Chem.
It always seemed to me that a LOT of these classes were more about getting
rid of people than educating them.  Weirdly, stats was NOT required.  In
all the years since I have used calculus (briefly) in a course on
theoretical population biology, I use Chemistry primarily when i teach
physiology, but professionally I use Stats all the time.  Talking with
colleagues, this pattern seems by no means unique.  Thoughts?

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Joseph Russell  wrote:

> I agree with Carrie here! When I was a Marine Biology undergrad at
> Stockton University in NJ, we were required to take two semesters of
> physics. However, the physics I and II courses that we took were not the
> same as would have been taken by a physics major. Our Physics courses were
> titled "physics for life sciences" which narrowed down the concepts to
> those that applied to people in the life sciences field. I believe the
> calculus courses that we were required to take were standard calculus, but
> I could see something like this working as well, where the calculus courses
> would not be like a calculus course taken by a math major, but rather, the
> curriculum would be designed so that the concepts and learning objectives
> would suit the field of study. Carrie has provided an excellent list below
> with the 6 points of valuable competencies for prospective biologists.
>
> *Joseph Russell, MNR*
>
> *Wildlife Management and Recreational Planning Research Fellow*
>
> Stockton University
>
> Galloway, NJ 08205
>
> (609) 287-0596
>
> joseph.russ...@stockton.edu
>
> *www.stockton.edu *
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 18, 2016, at 10:18 AM, Carrie Eaton  wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I responded with a few details already to Howard.  But I’ll just generally
> say that if you are thinking about curricular redesign, I’d like to suggest
> backward design based on concepts and competencies that employers need and
> which have been well identified by many national level reports. For
> example, Vision and Change.  Vision and Change identifies 6 vital
> competencies for all biology students:
>
> 1.  ABILITY TO APPLY THE PROCESS OF SCIENCE
>
> 2.  ABILITY TO USE QUANTITATIVE REASONING
>
> 3.  ABILITY TO USE MODELING AND SIMULATION
>
> 4.  ABILITY TO TAP INTO THE INTERDISCIPLINARY NATURE OF SCIENCE
>
> 5.  ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE AND COLLABORATE WITH OTHER DISCIPLINES
>
> 6.  ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SCIENCE AND SOCIETY
>
>
>
> Well-designed Calculus courses can help you reach many of these goals.
> More traditional courses in calculus may not meet these goals. I encourage
> you to consider if you advocate (as you do below) for its exclusion, that
> you consider alternatives to help students meet these same competencies or
> consider reaching out to your colleagues in mathematics (which I know well)
> to brainstorm how to better meet the needs of your department.
>
>
>
> Carrie
>
>
>
> *From:* Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [
> mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU ] *On Behalf
> Of *Neufeld, Howard S.
> *Sent:* Monday, October 17, 2016 8:09 PM
> *To:* ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
> *Subject:* [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology
> Majors?
>
>
>
> Dear All -
>
>
>
> I am participating in a study here at Appalachian State University about
> whether we should restructure the mathematics and statistics requirements
> for our biology/ecology majors. For example, should we require all majors
> to take an entire semester of calculus?
>
>
>
> I have written an explanation of why we are looking into this, and you can
> read the essay by going to this link on Google Drive:
>
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxpSVO5IUz-
> EMGdwU1lDNjhSRFE?usp=sharing
> 
>
>
>
> I would welcome comments from those interested in this subject, which
> would help us out here at Appalachian State in our discussions of this
> important subject.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Howie Neufeld
>
> --
>
> Dr. Howard S. Neufeld, Professor
>
> Director, Southern Appalachian Environmental Research and 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Joseph Russell]

I agree with Carrie here! When I was a Marine Biology undergrad at Stockton 
University in NJ, we were required to take two semesters of physics. However, 
the physics I and II courses that we took were not the same as would have been 
taken by a physics major. Our Physics courses were titled "physics for life 
sciences" which narrowed down the concepts to those that applied to people in 
the life sciences field. I believe the calculus courses that we were required 
to take were standard calculus, but I could see something like this working as 
well, where the calculus courses would not be like a calculus course taken by a 
math major, but rather, the curriculum would be designed so that the concepts 
and learning objectives would suit the field of study. Carrie has provided an 
excellent list below with the 6 points of valuable competencies for prospective 
biologists. 

Joseph Russell, MNR
Wildlife Management and Recreational Planning Research Fellow
Stockton University
Galloway, NJ 08205
(609) 287-0596
joseph.russ...@stockton.edu
www.stockton.edu

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 18, 2016, at 10:18 AM, Carrie Eaton  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> I responded with a few details already to Howard.  But I’ll just generally 
> say that if you are thinking about curricular redesign, I’d like to suggest 
> backward design based on concepts and competencies that employers need and 
> which have been well identified by many national level reports. For example, 
> Vision and Change.  Vision and Change identifies 6 vital competencies for all 
> biology students:
> 1.  ABILITY TO APPLY THE PROCESS OF SCIENCE
> 2.  ABILITY TO USE QUANTITATIVE REASONING
> 3.  ABILITY TO USE MODELING AND SIMULATION
> 4.  ABILITY TO TAP INTO THE INTERDISCIPLINARY NATURE OF SCIENCE
> 5.  ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE AND COLLABORATE WITH OTHER DISCIPLINES
> 6.  ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SCIENCE AND SOCIETY
>  
> Well-designed Calculus courses can help you reach many of these goals. More 
> traditional courses in calculus may not meet these goals. I encourage you to 
> consider if you advocate (as you do below) for its exclusion, that you 
> consider alternatives to help students meet these same competencies or 
> consider reaching out to your colleagues in mathematics (which I know well) 
> to brainstorm how to better meet the needs of your department.
>  
> Carrie
>  
> From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news 
> [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Neufeld, Howard S.
> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 8:09 PM
> To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
> Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?
>  
> Dear All -
>  
> I am participating in a study here at Appalachian State University about 
> whether we should restructure the mathematics and statistics requirements for 
> our biology/ecology majors. For example, should we require all majors to take 
> an entire semester of calculus?
>  
> I have written an explanation of why we are looking into this, and you can 
> read the essay by going to this link on Google Drive:
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxpSVO5IUz-EMGdwU1lDNjhSRFE?usp=sharing
>  
> I would welcome comments from those interested in this subject, which would 
> help us out here at Appalachian State in our discussions of this important 
> subject.
>  
> Thanks!
> Howie Neufeld
> -- 
> Dr. Howard S. Neufeld, Professor
> Director, Southern Appalachian Environmental Research and Education Center 
> (SAEREC)
> Chair, Appalachian Interdisciplinary Atmospheric Research Group (AppalAIR)
>  
> Mailing Address:
>Department of Biology
>572 Rivers St.
>Appalachian State University
>Boone, NC 28608
>Tel: 828-262-2683; Fax 828-262-2127
>  
> Websites:
> Academic: http://biology.appstate.edu/faculty-staff/104
> Personal: http://www.appstate.edu/~neufeldhs/index.html
> SAEREC: http://saerec.appstate.edu
> AppalAIR: http://appalair.appstate.edu
> Fall Colors: 
>   Academic: http://biology.appstate.edu/fall-colors 
>   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FallColorGuy

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

[Carrie Eaton]

Hi all,
I responded with a few details already to Howard.  But I’ll just generally say 
that if you are thinking about curricular redesign, I’d like to suggest 
backward design based on concepts and competencies that employers need and 
which have been well identified by many national level reports. For example, 
Vision and Change.  Vision and Change identifies 6 vital competencies for all 
biology students:

1.  ABILITY TO APPLY THE PROCESS OF SCIENCE

2.  ABILITY TO USE QUANTITATIVE REASONING

3.  ABILITY TO USE MODELING AND SIMULATION

4.  ABILITY TO TAP INTO THE INTERDISCIPLINARY NATURE OF SCIENCE

5.  ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE AND COLLABORATE WITH OTHER DISCIPLINES

6.  ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SCIENCE AND SOCIETY

Well-designed Calculus courses can help you reach many of these goals. More 
traditional courses in calculus may not meet these goals. I encourage you to 
consider if you advocate (as you do below) for its exclusion, that you consider 
alternatives to help students meet these same competencies or consider reaching 
out to your colleagues in mathematics (which I know well) to brainstorm how to 
better meet the needs of your department.

Carrie

From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news 
[mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Neufeld, Howard S.
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 8:09 PM
To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Should Calculus Be Required of All Ecology/Biology Majors?

Dear All -

I am participating in a study here at Appalachian State University about 
whether we should restructure the mathematics and statistics requirements for 
our biology/ecology majors. For example, should we require all majors to take 
an entire semester of calculus?

I have written an explanation of why we are looking into this, and you can read 
the essay by going to this link on Google Drive:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxpSVO5IUz-EMGdwU1lDNjhSRFE?usp=sharing

I would welcome comments from those interested in this subject, which would 
help us out here at Appalachian State in our discussions of this important 
subject.

Thanks!
Howie Neufeld

--

Dr. Howard S. Neufeld, Professor

Director, Southern Appalachian Environmental Research and Education Center 
(SAEREC)

Chair, Appalachian Interdisciplinary Atmospheric Research Group (AppalAIR)



Mailing Address:

   Department of Biology

   572 Rivers St.

   Appalachian State University

   Boone, NC 28608

   Tel: 828-262-2683; Fax 828-262-2127



Websites:

Academic: 
http://biology.appstate.edu/faculty-staff/104

Personal: 
http://www.appstate.edu/~neufeldhs/index.html

SAEREC: 
http://saerec.appstate.edu

AppalAIR: 
http://appalair.appstate.edu

Fall Colors:

  Academic: 
http://biology.appstate.edu/fall-colors

  Facebook: 
https://www.facebook.com/FallColorGuy