Re: Product Safety Certification School

[Rich Nute]

Hi Dan:


>   Last year, sometime, reference was made about the possible creation of a
>   University program to teach Product Safety.  I was wondering if anybody has
>   heard anything further about this program?

I probably was the one who mentioned that engineering
schools should include a 1-term course in product 
safety.

Its on my wish-list.  I'd like to find even one 
engineering school that would consider such a course,
and then I'd volunteer to help create the course.

But, I believe that no engineering school currently
has such a course.


Best regards,
Rich





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Update-NEBS Testing RFQ

[Leslie Bai]

Group:

I posted for NEBS testing RFQ a month ago
and received lots of replies from competitive
labs and advice from well-experienced group 
members.

It's to update to the group that I have selected
three potential testing labs for further discussion.

Only those labs who sent us the quotation
have been notifed individually. 

By any way, I would like to appreciate all
labs who expressed their interests and all
experienced members who offered their 
advice.

Thank you.
Leslie Bai
Digital Microwave Corporation
www.dmcwave.com




__
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RE: Technical Documentation

[Lfresearch]

This is how we manage our technical files also.

A CD-ROM, with a single start page, enables you to browse for anything from the 
product manual to the chart showing conducted emissions. Even the test fixture 
electrical schematic is included...

The CB that looked this over eventually warmed to the approach, but initially 
thought it was a pain because their PC's were slow

Best regards,

Derek.

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re: EMC certification

[Dave Wilson]

Try NARTE (National Association of Radio and Telecommunications Engineers). 
www.narte.org

Dave Wilson
EMC Manager
BABT Product Service
Tel: 408-919-3745
-- Original Text --

From: john.linst...@cdynamics.com, on 3/3/00 1:48 PM:
To: smtp@DAN7@Servers[]

FROM too long. Original FROM is
"Linstrom, John  (IndSys, GEFanuc, CDI)" 


--  Original Message Follows  --

Is there an EMI/EMC equivalent to the PE (professional engineer) or CNE
(certified network engineer) - and how would one go about getting this
certification?

John Linstrom
Computer Dynamics
PH 864.281.7768 x266
FX  864.675.0106
john.linst...@cdynamics.com



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Product Safety Certification School

[Dan Mitchell]

Last year, sometime, reference was made about the possible creation of a
University program to teach Product Safety.  I was wondering if anybody has
heard anything further about this program?



Daniel W. Mitchell
Product Safety Engineer
Condor DC Power Supplies, Inc.

P: (805) 486-4565 x323
F: (805) 483-4307



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Re: EMC certification

[Ken Javor]

NARTE, Medway, MA

--
From: "Linstrom, John  (IndSys, GEFanuc, CDI)" 
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: EMC certification
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Fri, Mar 3, 2000, 11:12 AM



Is there an EMI/EMC equivalent to the PE (professional engineer) or CNE
(certified network engineer) - and how would one go about getting this
certification?

John Linstrom
Computer Dynamics
PH 864.281.7768 x266
FX  864.675.0106
john.linst...@cdynamics.com 

RE: Technical Documentation

[Dan Mitchell]

At a former company, we decided to do this.  We found out that if you used
a complete verision of Adobe Acrobat Writer, you could create a word
document and convert it into a .pdf format that was an order of magnitude
smaller than the same file that was scanned in.  Consequently, we also had
the test houses provide their reports in electronic format and converted
them to .pdf file.

Daniel Mitchell
Product Safety Engineer
Condor DC Power Supplies, Inc.





"Grasso Charles (Chaz)"  on 03/03/2000
10:36:03 AM

To:   "'Bruce Touzel'" , Scott Douglas
  
cc:   emc-p...@ieee.org (bcc: Dan Mitchell/CondorDC)

Subject:  RE: Technical Documentation





Excellent thought - and one that we are moving to.
There are a couple logistical issues that need resolving..
1) one problem there is that
we would have to employ 2 persons fulltime to
perform all the necessary library functions
2) the transmittal of the data (the files can attain several
megabytes) is non trivial. Webdownlaads can take a L..O..N..G
time and email systems typically puke on the file size.

-Original Message-
From: Bruce Touzel [mailto:btou...@acc.com]
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 10:37 AM
To: Scott Douglas
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Technical Documentation



why don't you just scan-in your documents and post them on the internal
company
server so that anyone can get it if needed ?

thx
bruce

Scott Douglas wrote:

> I guess I want to toss my 2 cents in here. I am probably going to be
found
> out in left field but here's what I do with all this stuff. I keep a 3
ring
> binder where I store copies of all of the safety agency certifications
and
> notices of compliance from the EMC test house. I also keep a copy of the
> Declaration of Conformity in the book. I keep one copy of this binder in
our
> UK office, one copy here in my office and one copy here in Document
Control
> (here being our US factory). In addition to the binders, I keep one file
> cabinet in Document Control where I store all safety and EMC test
records.
I
> am now adding copies of component proofs to this file cabinet. I do not
> store schematics, fabrication or assembly drawings. Neither do I store
user
> manuals or reference manuals. Tech Pubs and Drafting store all these
> documents and drawings.
>
> Should the need arise, anyone can ask our UK office for a document and
that
> request will be passed on to me. If that request ever comes in, I will go
to
> Document Control and arrange  to collect the necessary paperwork. I am
> certainly not going to create a file of duplicate documents that I have
to
> update on an every day basis. So it would seem that my TCF or whatever
else
> you want to call it is actually scattered all over our factory, each
> function keeping their own records. About the only thing I did to these
> other document storage processes was to add the 10 storage requirement to
> their ISO 9001 procedures. One other thing I did was to insert myself in
the
> ECO process such that I sign off on every change order to a tested and
> released product. That way, I won't miss anything.
>
> So far, it seems to be working with minimal fuss. The few requests I have
> had were from non-European countries for test records, specifically from
> South Africa, Australia and Russia. I am sure somebody will tell me I am
way
> out there and really non-compliant. But since I test and certify to
product
> specific (ITE) standards, I do not need to keep "TCF's or whatever else"
at
> a test house / notified / competent body. Therefore, I will not keep such
a
> file here either. I will deliver whatever documents to whomever requests,
it
> may take a few days, but I will deliver. If that is not in keeping with
the
> spirit and intent, then somebody better lock me up.
>
> Scott
> s_doug...@ecrm.com
> ECRM Incorporated
> Tewksbury, MA  USA
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>
> To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
>  majord...@ieee.org
> with the single line:
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>
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>  Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
>  Richard Nute:   ri...@ieee.org


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Tech

RE: EMC certification

[Pettit, Ghery]

John,
 
The equivalent is the NARTE Certified EMC Engineer (or Technician).  Their
URL is http://www.narte.org/  .  I've copied the key
requirments from the web page below:
 
  
*   Complete the EMC Application Form and submit application fee. 


*   Provide specific record of nine years or more of experience in
engineering work. Provide an up-to-date resume or complete the EMC Resume
Equivalent form. 


a) Graduation from a NARTE-approved engineering curriculum of four
years shall be considered equivalent to four years of such required
experience.
b) The satisfactory completion of each year of such an approved engineering
curriculum shall be considered equivalent to a year of such required
experience.
c) Graduation in a physical science curriculum other than engineering will
be evaluated by NARTE.
d) Graduation from a college with a BSET in Engineering Technology (BSET)
shall be considered as equivalent to two years of such required experience.
e) Graduation in a curriculum other than engineering or physical science
will be evaluated by NARTE.
f) Postgraduate study in engineering may be given credit up to one year.
g) Teaching: Engineering teaching of a character satisfactory to NARTE shall
be considered as experience not in excess of two years.

The mere execution or the supervision of construction of such work as a
foreman, first line supervisor or superintendent shall not be deemed to be
the practice of engineering. 

*   Provide evidence of education and training.
Official school transcripts are required. Photocopies of applicable training
certificates may be submitted. 


*   References: Using the NARTE reference forms, submit a minimum of 1
supervisory reference and 2 additional references each supporting character
and competency as an EMC Engineer. Reference forms must be signed and
fowarded directly to NARTE. 


*   Compose 10 original multiple choice questions with correct answers
and supporting references. 


*   Pass the NARTE EMC Engineer examination.  
 
 
Hope this helps.  You can find more information on their web page.
 
Ghery S. Pettit, NCE
Intel
 
 
*   -Original Message-
From: Linstrom, John (IndSys, GEFanuc, CDI)
[mailto:john.linst...@cdynamics.com]
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 11:13 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: EMC certification



Is there an EMI/EMC equivalent to the PE (professional engineer) or CNE
(certified network engineer) - and how would one go about getting this
certification?

John Linstrom 
Computer Dynamics 
PH 864.281.7768 x266 
FX  864.675.0106 
john.linst...@cdynamics.com 



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Re: Technical Documentation

[CDUPRES]

In a message dated 03/03/00 12:28:55 GMT Standard Time, cet...@cetest.nl 
writes:

<< 
 In my opinion both TCF and Technical Documentation is meant to be the same
 in EC language.  >>

Hi Gert.

Here's another way of coming at it.

In the UK EMC Regulations, which is UK Law, the term 'Technical Construction 
File' is a legal entity.  It has a particular description in the act and has 
to meet minimum criteria in order to enable a Competent Body to grant a 
compliance certificate.

'Technical Documentation' is a generic term which covers anything included in 
a technical file that may be used to support a claim of Compliance under the 
Standards Route to compliance.   Technical Documentation does not have to 
prove compliance, it could be photo's of a test site, test results, or even a 
statement that the equipment does not need to be compliant!  e.g. a light 
bulb.

Chris Dupres
Surrey, UK.


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Re: EMC certification

[teckert]

The University of Missouri at Rolla has a very good EMC program.  They have
an EMC certification program available.  You should be able to find
information at their web site:

http://www.emclab.umr.edu/

Although this certification does not carry the weight of a PE, it is known
by many in the industry.

The National Association of Radio and Telecommunications Engineers (NARTE)
also has a certification program.

http://www.narte.org/emc.html

Like the UM Rolla program, this is not as well recognized as a PE, but it
is a thorough certification program.

Ted Eckert
Regulatory Compliance Engineer
American Power Conversion Corporation
teck...@apcc.com

The items contained in this e-mail reflect the personal opinions of the
writer and are only provided for the assistance of the reader.  The writer
is not speaking in an official capacity for APC nor representing APC's
official position on any matter.



Please respond to "Linstrom, John  (IndSys, GEFanuc, CDI)"
  

To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
cc:(bcc: Ted Eckert/SDD/NAM/APCC)
From: "Linstrom, John  (IndSys, GEFanuc, CDI)"
   on 03/03/2000 01:12 PM
Subject:  EMC certification




Is there an EMI/EMC equivalent to the PE (professional engineer) or CNE
(certified network engineer) - and how would one go about getting this
certification?

John Linstrom
Computer Dynamics
PH 864.281.7768 x266
FX  864.675.0106
john.linst...@cdynamics.com

Title: EMC certification





Is there an EMI/EMC equivalent to the PE (professional engineer) or CNE (certified network engineer) - and how would one go about getting this certification?

John Linstrom
Computer Dynamics
PH 864.281.7768 x266
FX  864.675.0106
john.linst...@cdynamics.com

EMC certification

[Linstrom, John (IndSys, GEFanuc, CDI)]

Is there an EMI/EMC equivalent to the PE (professional engineer) or CNE
(certified network engineer) - and how would one go about getting this
certification?

John Linstrom
Computer Dynamics
PH 864.281.7768 x266
FX  864.675.0106
john.linst...@cdynamics.com

RE: ETSI Document Downloading

[Barbara Judge]

Ron,

I downloaded 57 documents on Tuesday and Wednesday of this week with no
trouble whatsoever.  Perhaps I was monopolizing the servers time!!!  

Best Regards,
Barbara Judge

-Original Message-
From: Ron Pickard [mailto:rpick...@hypercom.com]
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 8:01 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org; t...@world.std.com
Subject: ETSI Document Downloading



To all,

Have any of you had any difficulties lately downloading documents from
the
ETSI site? I'm experiencing no problems whatsoever getting to the point
of
identifying the document(s) I wish to download. The problem is after I
put
in my EOL identifier and clicking the download button, the ETSI system
seems to go into cardiac arrest.

Are any of you experiencing this same phenomenon? I would appreciate
knowing if any others are having similar experinces with the ETSI site.

Best regards,
Ron Pickard
rpick...@hypercom.com



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Fwd:RE: Surge Testing per EN 55024/EN61000-4-5

[Jim Bacher]

forwarded for   wolfgang_josenh...@3com.com...   Jim

Forward Header_
Subject:RE: Surge Testing per EN 55024/EN61000-4-5
Author: wolfgang_josenh...@3com.com
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date:   3/3/00 12:16 PM



Jim,

One other thing to keep in mind, the modem typically will be grounded by a
serial or USB
cable to the PC and then to earth through the PC power cord.

I believe Surge tests to ground must be performed to determine if any real
failure mechanism exists.
Keep in mind that events like Lightning are Common mode in nature .

Regards,

Wolf






"Lacey,Scott"  on 03/02/2000 08:51:23 AM

Please respond to "Lacey,Scott" 

Sent by:  "Lacey,Scott" 


To:   "'Jim Hulbert'" 
cc:   "'emc-pstc @ieee.org'"  (Wolfgang Josenhans/MW/US/3Com)
Subject:  RE: Surge Testing per EN 55024/EN61000-4-5





Jim,
You do in fact have a potential ground connection - at the phone line. In
the static (on-hook) state you will have -48 Vdc, referenced to earth. If
you look at your home phone service you will see a wire running to a cold
water pipe, with a tag that says something like "Telephone Company Ground -
Do Not Remove". PBX systems at work will be different. I have little
knowledge of whether they ground or not. I have learned the hard way to look
for these non-obvious ground connections.

Best wishes,

Scott Lacey

 -Original Message-
 From: Jim Hulbert [SMTP:hulbe...@pb.com]
 Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 8:52 AM
 To:  Lacey,Scott; emc-p...@ieee.org
 Subject:  RE: Surge Testing per EN 55024/EN61000-4-5




 Scott,

 The product I'm currently looking at uses a 2 -prong AC mains plug.
Actually
 the supply is small direct plug-in type with DC leads that connect
to the
 product.  The product itself is encased in plastic and the only
other connection
 is through an internal modem board to a standard analog telephone
line.  The
 connection to the phone line is a simple 2-wire (tip and ring)
configuration.
 As I see it, surge tests with reference to earth ground are
pointless.

 Others have pointed out that an "ungrounded" product may in the real
world
 actually have a reference to ground depending on how it is installed
or what
 other equipment it is connected to.   That is a good point which I
hadn't
 thought about.  However, I don't think that in my particular
situation that's
 that case.

 Thanks to all who responded with their opinions.

 Jim





 "Lacey,Scott"  on 03/01/2000 01:31:46 PM

 Please respond to "Lacey,Scott" 

 To:   "'Jim Hulbert'" 
 cc:   "'emc-p...@ieee.org'"  (bcc: Jim
Hulbert/MSD/US/PBI)

 Subject:  RE: Surge Testing per EN 55024/EN61000-4-5





 Jim,
 I'm not quite sure from the description what your product looks
like, but,
 here are a few things to keep in mind. If you use a 3-prong ac mains
plug
 you absolutely should do the line-to-ground test. If you use a
2-prong ac
 mains plug you still might want to perform the test anyway,
depending on how
 your product is used. For example, if your plastic housing may be
DIN rail
 mounted or screwed to a wall, you may have a leakage or arc path to
earth.
 Your customer may have deliberately grounded the DIN rail to satisfy
the
 requirements of other vendor's equipment already mounted. Even if it
only
 gets screwed to a plasterboard wall, it still may get grounded by
accident.
 I have seen two such scenarios over the years. In the first instance
one
 mounting screw went through the wallboard and touched the grounded
sheath of
 a BX cable in an older building. In the second instance a screw
penetrated a
 metal stud used to frame the wall. An outlet box was attached to
another
 stud. Bingo - instant ground.

 I'm sure there are many who will disagree with me, but we test
products not
 only to conform to a standard, but also to ensure a more robust
product. I
 want to find any vulnerability first, before the product gets to a
customer.
 Customers tend to get VERY angry when their new product "hiccups",
and the
 nasty stuff tends to flow downhill real fast when their CEO calls
yours.

 Scott Lacey

  -Original Message-
  From: Jim Hulbert [SMTP:hulbe...@pb.com]
  Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 10:32 AM
  To:  emc-p...@ieee.org
  Subject:  Surge Testing per EN 55024/EN61000-4-5




  Colleagues,

  EN 55024 calls for surge pulses to be applied line-to-line and
 line-to-earth on
  the AC mains port and line-to-ground on signal and
 telecommunications ports that
  connect directly to outdoor cables.   However, if my EUT is
encased
 in plastic
  covers and has no direct earth ground connection (class 2 power
 supply), is the
  line-to-line test on the AC mains the only surge test that I
need to

RE: Technical Documentation

[Grasso, Charles (Chaz)]

Excellent thought - and one that we are moving to.
There are a couple logistical issues that need resolving..
1) one problem there is that
we would have to employ 2 persons fulltime to
perform all the necessary library functions
2) the transmittal of the data (the files can attain several
megabytes) is non trivial. Webdownlaads can take a L..O..N..G
time and email systems typically puke on the file size.

-Original Message-
From: Bruce Touzel [mailto:btou...@acc.com]
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 10:37 AM
To: Scott Douglas
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: Technical Documentation



why don't you just scan-in your documents and post them on the internal
company
server so that anyone can get it if needed ?

thx
bruce

Scott Douglas wrote:

> I guess I want to toss my 2 cents in here. I am probably going to be found
> out in left field but here's what I do with all this stuff. I keep a 3
ring
> binder where I store copies of all of the safety agency certifications and
> notices of compliance from the EMC test house. I also keep a copy of the
> Declaration of Conformity in the book. I keep one copy of this binder in
our
> UK office, one copy here in my office and one copy here in Document
Control
> (here being our US factory). In addition to the binders, I keep one file
> cabinet in Document Control where I store all safety and EMC test records.
I
> am now adding copies of component proofs to this file cabinet. I do not
> store schematics, fabrication or assembly drawings. Neither do I store
user
> manuals or reference manuals. Tech Pubs and Drafting store all these
> documents and drawings.
>
> Should the need arise, anyone can ask our UK office for a document and
that
> request will be passed on to me. If that request ever comes in, I will go
to
> Document Control and arrange  to collect the necessary paperwork. I am
> certainly not going to create a file of duplicate documents that I have to
> update on an every day basis. So it would seem that my TCF or whatever
else
> you want to call it is actually scattered all over our factory, each
> function keeping their own records. About the only thing I did to these
> other document storage processes was to add the 10 storage requirement to
> their ISO 9001 procedures. One other thing I did was to insert myself in
the
> ECO process such that I sign off on every change order to a tested and
> released product. That way, I won't miss anything.
>
> So far, it seems to be working with minimal fuss. The few requests I have
> had were from non-European countries for test records, specifically from
> South Africa, Australia and Russia. I am sure somebody will tell me I am
way
> out there and really non-compliant. But since I test and certify to
product
> specific (ITE) standards, I do not need to keep "TCF's or whatever else"
at
> a test house / notified / competent body. Therefore, I will not keep such
a
> file here either. I will deliver whatever documents to whomever requests,
it
> may take a few days, but I will deliver. If that is not in keeping with
the
> spirit and intent, then somebody better lock me up.
>
> Scott
> s_doug...@ecrm.com
> ECRM Incorporated
> Tewksbury, MA  USA
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>
> To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
>  majord...@ieee.org
> with the single line:
>  unsubscribe emc-pstc
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>  Jim Bacher:  jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com
>  Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
>  Richard Nute:   ri...@ieee.org


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Re: ETSI Document Downloading

[Ed Nakauchi]

Hello,

I downloaded a couple of documents about two-three weeks ago.  I did have a
problem with one of them.  It would download with "corrputed files".  I
tried two times unsuccessfully to download it.  I did not have any problems
downloading the other document.

Ed Nakauchi
EMI/EMC Consultant

-Original Message-
From: Ron Pickard 
To: emc-p...@ieee.org ; t...@world.std.com

List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Friday, March 03, 2000 9:58 AM
Subject: ETSI Document Downloading


>
>To all,
>
>Have any of you had any difficulties lately downloading documents from the
>ETSI site? I'm experiencing no problems whatsoever getting to the point of
>identifying the document(s) I wish to download. The problem is after I put
>in my EOL identifier and clicking the download button, the ETSI system
>seems to go into cardiac arrest.
>
>Are any of you experiencing this same phenomenon? I would appreciate
>knowing if any others are having similar experinces with the ETSI site.
>
>Best regards,
>Ron Pickard
>rpick...@hypercom.com
>
>
>
>---
>This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
>Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>
>To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
> majord...@ieee.org
>with the single line:
> unsubscribe emc-pstc
>
>For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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>
>For policy questions, send mail to:
> Richard Nute:   ri...@ieee.org
>
>
>


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RE: Technical Documentation

[Grasso, Charles (Chaz)]

Scott - We maintain a similar system. That is with
stuff scattered at different points in the company.

I (and you and I think many others) belive that WHERE
access to the documentation is irrelevant. What really counts
is GETTING the documentation to the person that requests it.



-Original Message-
From: Scott Douglas [mailto:s_doug...@ecrm.com]
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 10:19 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Technical Documentation




I guess I want to toss my 2 cents in here. I am probably going to be found
out in left field but here's what I do with all this stuff. I keep a 3 ring
binder where I store copies of all of the safety agency certifications and
notices of compliance from the EMC test house. I also keep a copy of the
Declaration of Conformity in the book. I keep one copy of this binder in our
UK office, one copy here in my office and one copy here in Document Control
(here being our US factory). In addition to the binders, I keep one file
cabinet in Document Control where I store all safety and EMC test records. I
am now adding copies of component proofs to this file cabinet. I do not
store schematics, fabrication or assembly drawings. Neither do I store user
manuals or reference manuals. Tech Pubs and Drafting store all these
documents and drawings.

Should the need arise, anyone can ask our UK office for a document and that
request will be passed on to me. If that request ever comes in, I will go to
Document Control and arrange  to collect the necessary paperwork. I am
certainly not going to create a file of duplicate documents that I have to
update on an every day basis. So it would seem that my TCF or whatever else
you want to call it is actually scattered all over our factory, each
function keeping their own records. About the only thing I did to these
other document storage processes was to add the 10 storage requirement to
their ISO 9001 procedures. One other thing I did was to insert myself in the
ECO process such that I sign off on every change order to a tested and
released product. That way, I won't miss anything.

So far, it seems to be working with minimal fuss. The few requests I have
had were from non-European countries for test records, specifically from
South Africa, Australia and Russia. I am sure somebody will tell me I am way
out there and really non-compliant. But since I test and certify to product
specific (ITE) standards, I do not need to keep "TCF's or whatever else" at
a test house / notified / competent body. Therefore, I will not keep such a
file here either. I will deliver whatever documents to whomever requests, it
may take a few days, but I will deliver. If that is not in keeping with the
spirit and intent, then somebody better lock me up.


Scott
s_doug...@ecrm.com
ECRM Incorporated
Tewksbury, MA  USA




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IEC 60167

[Compliance]

Hi All -

EN60065 specifies a specimen of material, as specified in IEC60167, clause 9
to be subjected to a humidity test.

Can anyone fill me in on the details of this clause?

Thank you in advance for your assistance,

Brent Taira
Eos Corporation


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Re: Technical Documentation

[Bruce Touzel]

why don't you just scan-in your documents and post them on the internal company
server so that anyone can get it if needed ?

thx
bruce

Scott Douglas wrote:

> I guess I want to toss my 2 cents in here. I am probably going to be found
> out in left field but here's what I do with all this stuff. I keep a 3 ring
> binder where I store copies of all of the safety agency certifications and
> notices of compliance from the EMC test house. I also keep a copy of the
> Declaration of Conformity in the book. I keep one copy of this binder in our
> UK office, one copy here in my office and one copy here in Document Control
> (here being our US factory). In addition to the binders, I keep one file
> cabinet in Document Control where I store all safety and EMC test records. I
> am now adding copies of component proofs to this file cabinet. I do not
> store schematics, fabrication or assembly drawings. Neither do I store user
> manuals or reference manuals. Tech Pubs and Drafting store all these
> documents and drawings.
>
> Should the need arise, anyone can ask our UK office for a document and that
> request will be passed on to me. If that request ever comes in, I will go to
> Document Control and arrange  to collect the necessary paperwork. I am
> certainly not going to create a file of duplicate documents that I have to
> update on an every day basis. So it would seem that my TCF or whatever else
> you want to call it is actually scattered all over our factory, each
> function keeping their own records. About the only thing I did to these
> other document storage processes was to add the 10 storage requirement to
> their ISO 9001 procedures. One other thing I did was to insert myself in the
> ECO process such that I sign off on every change order to a tested and
> released product. That way, I won't miss anything.
>
> So far, it seems to be working with minimal fuss. The few requests I have
> had were from non-European countries for test records, specifically from
> South Africa, Australia and Russia. I am sure somebody will tell me I am way
> out there and really non-compliant. But since I test and certify to product
> specific (ITE) standards, I do not need to keep "TCF's or whatever else" at
> a test house / notified / competent body. Therefore, I will not keep such a
> file here either. I will deliver whatever documents to whomever requests, it
> may take a few days, but I will deliver. If that is not in keeping with the
> spirit and intent, then somebody better lock me up.
>
> Scott
> s_doug...@ecrm.com
> ECRM Incorporated
> Tewksbury, MA  USA
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>
> To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
>  majord...@ieee.org
> with the single line:
>  unsubscribe emc-pstc
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>  Jim Bacher:  jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com
>  Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
>  Richard Nute:   ri...@ieee.org


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RE: Demo Units Sent to EU w/o CE ?

[Dick Grobner]

In the Medical Device Directive (93/42/EEC) Article 4 paragraph 3 states:
"At trade fairs, exhibitions, demonstrations, etc. Member States shall not
create any obstacles to the showing of devices which do not conform to this
Directive, provided that a visible sign clearly indicates that such a device
cannot be marketed or put into service until they have been made to comply"
I do not know if this same statement is in place in other directives, such
as low voltage, EMC, etc.
However - Common sense would state that one would want to assure that the
device is "risk free" to environment, humans, etc. if one was going to have
the device placed into an operational mode at a trade show. A risk
assessment should be done to assure the device is electrically safe,
compliant with EMI/RFI (especially emissions, unless you want to "blast" out
your competitors next door in booth) basic requirements. I hope this helps!
-Original Message-
From: Lyons, Jim [mailto:jim.ly...@gtech.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 4:29 PM
To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org'
Subject: Demo Units Sent to EU w/o CE ?



Can anyone tell me if there are provisions for sending prototype electrical
equipment to Europe before it has been CE approved? This equipment would
normally be subject to the LVD and EMC directive, and would be used at shows
to demonstrate the equipment. It is possible that attendies at the show
would touch or operate the equipment.

Thanks for any comments or insight.

Jim Lyons
Mgr - Product Compliance
GTECH Corp.


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RE: Technical Documentation

[Scott Douglas]

I guess I want to toss my 2 cents in here. I am probably going to be found
out in left field but here's what I do with all this stuff. I keep a 3 ring
binder where I store copies of all of the safety agency certifications and
notices of compliance from the EMC test house. I also keep a copy of the
Declaration of Conformity in the book. I keep one copy of this binder in our
UK office, one copy here in my office and one copy here in Document Control
(here being our US factory). In addition to the binders, I keep one file
cabinet in Document Control where I store all safety and EMC test records. I
am now adding copies of component proofs to this file cabinet. I do not
store schematics, fabrication or assembly drawings. Neither do I store user
manuals or reference manuals. Tech Pubs and Drafting store all these
documents and drawings.

Should the need arise, anyone can ask our UK office for a document and that
request will be passed on to me. If that request ever comes in, I will go to
Document Control and arrange  to collect the necessary paperwork. I am
certainly not going to create a file of duplicate documents that I have to
update on an every day basis. So it would seem that my TCF or whatever else
you want to call it is actually scattered all over our factory, each
function keeping their own records. About the only thing I did to these
other document storage processes was to add the 10 storage requirement to
their ISO 9001 procedures. One other thing I did was to insert myself in the
ECO process such that I sign off on every change order to a tested and
released product. That way, I won't miss anything.

So far, it seems to be working with minimal fuss. The few requests I have
had were from non-European countries for test records, specifically from
South Africa, Australia and Russia. I am sure somebody will tell me I am way
out there and really non-compliant. But since I test and certify to product
specific (ITE) standards, I do not need to keep "TCF's or whatever else" at
a test house / notified / competent body. Therefore, I will not keep such a
file here either. I will deliver whatever documents to whomever requests, it
may take a few days, but I will deliver. If that is not in keeping with the
spirit and intent, then somebody better lock me up.


Scott
s_doug...@ecrm.com
ECRM Incorporated
Tewksbury, MA  USA




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Re: Extremes of Operating Ambient Temperature for ITE

[Rich Nute]

Hi Peter:


There are two issues in your question:

1.  The equipment use environment.

Test and Measurement Equipment is likely to be used in 
outdoor or sheltered environments, including arctic regions.  
Hence, a lower temperature limit of 5 C.

Information Technology Equipment is likely to be used in 
indoor environments, usually heated.  Hence, a lower 
temperature limit of 25 C. 

2.  The protection mechanisms that are affected by temperature.

Protection against electric shock is principally provided
by insulation.  We know that insulation deteriorates as a
function of elevated temperatures, not as a function of low 
temperatures (although some may become brittle).  So, as a 
general rule, we can ignore low temperatures insofar as solid 
insulation is concerned.  We can say the same for the 
supplemental protection schemes such as grounding and 
double/reinforced insulation.

Protection against fire is principally achieved by using flame-
retardant materials and a fire enclosure.  These are not 
affected by low temperatures.

Protection against mechanical hazards is achieved by using
interlock schemes and mechanical enclosures.  These, too are
not affected by low temperatures.

Protection against hot parts is provided by an enclosure.  This,
too, is not affected by low temperatures.

Etc.

As far as I can tell, there are no protective mechanisms that
are adversely affected by low temperatures (excluding extremely
low temperatures).  So, it seems to me that IEC 61010 may be
overly conservative in considering temperatures down to 5 C.

(The requirements ignore the problem of condensation resulting 
from moving a cold unit into a warmer environment.)


Best regards,
Rich




>   From owner-emc-p...@ieee.org Fri Mar  3 06:43:50 PST 2000
>   Received: from hpsdlo.sdd.hp.com (hpsdlo-sw.sdd.hp.com [15.80.36.40]) by 
> hpsdlfsg.sdd.hp.com with ESMTP (8.7.6/8.7.3 TIS 5.0/sdd epg) id GAA15173 for 
> ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 06:43:49 -0800 (PST)
>   Received: from ruebert.ieee.org (ruebert.ieee.org [199.172.136.3])
>   by hpsdlo.sdd.hp.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.5btis+epg) with ESMTP id 
> GAA20964
>   for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 06:43:48 -0800 (PST)
>   Received:  by ruebert.ieee.org (8.9.3/8.9.3)id JAA24511; Fri, 3 Mar 
> 2000 09:16:03 -0500 (EST)
>   Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.2303161333.00820b30@194.132.55.100>
>   X-Sender: pmerguerian@194.132.55.100
>   X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)
>   Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 16:13:33 +0200
>   To: 
>   From: pmerguer...@itl.co.il (Peter Merguerian)
>   Subject: Extremes of Operating Ambient Temperature for ITE
>   Mime-Version: 1.0
>   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>   Sender: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org
>   Precedence: bulk
>   Reply-To: pmerguer...@itl.co.il (Peter Merguerian)
>   X-Resent-To: Multiple Recipients 
>   X-Listname: emc-pstc
>   X-Info: Help requests to  emc-pstc-requ...@majordomo.ieee.org
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>   X-Moderator-Address: emc-pstc-appro...@majordomo.ieee.org
>   
>   
>   Hello There!
>   
>   For IEC1010 Type products (measurement and test equipment), the standard
>   specifies it is written for units operating from 5 - 45 deg C. For any
>   other ambient operating temperature, additional tests should be made to
>   ensure an equivalent level of asfety is achieved.
>   
>   What about IEC 950/ UL1950? The standard is based on a 25 deg C ambient. It
>   also has formula to use for limits of temperature rises above for equipment
>   rated for a higher ambient operating temperature. However, nothing is
>   mentioned regarding lower than 25 deg C ambient temperatures. 
>   
>   I have seen many units Listed/CE Approved with an ambient operating
>   temperature say of -20 deg C to 60 deg C without additional tests in the
>   Listing/CE Reports. 
>   
>   Any comments would be appreciated.
>   Peter Merguerian
>   Managing Director
>   Product Testing Division
>   I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd.
>   Hacharoshet 26, POB 211
>   Or Yehuda 60251, Israel
>   
>   Tel: 972-3-5339022 Fax: 972-3-5339019
>   e-mail: pmerguer...@itl.co.il
>   website: http://www.itl.co.il 
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   ---
>   This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
>   Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>   
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>Richard Nute:   ri...@ieee.org
>   
>   
>   


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Re: ETSI Document Downloading

[Art Michael]

Hello Ron,

Consider the following:

I signed up for access to the ETSI site a week or two ago; in their
confirmation message to me, they noted that the "from" address I provided
to them was slightly different from the one my provides appends to my
messages. 

ETSI instructed me to re-enroll at the ETSI site using the address my
provider appends to my mail. In my case I had input "amich...@connix.com",
my usual email address.  It turns out that my ISP modifies the address to;
"amich...@comet.connix.com" which apparently refers to a sub-location or
server within their domain.  While this difference is transparent to me
(and either address will arrive here) it makes a difference to ETSI's
confirmation system. 

Perhaps this quirk is affecting your access. A work-around - just request
a single document, a courtesy afforded visitors while they await
confirmation. 

Regards, Art Michael

Int'l Product Safety News
A.E. Michael, Editor
166 Congdon St. East
P.O. Box 1561 
Middletown CT 06457 U.S.A.

Phone  :  (860) 344-1651
Fax:  (860) 346-9066
Email  :  i...@connix.com
Website:  http://www.safetylink.com
ISSN   :  1040-7529


On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Ron Pickard wrote:

> 
> To all,
> 
> Have any of you had any difficulties lately downloading documents from the
> ETSI site? I'm experiencing no problems whatsoever getting to the point of
> identifying the document(s) I wish to download. The problem is after I put
> in my EOL identifier and clicking the download button, the ETSI system
> seems to go into cardiac arrest.
> 
> Are any of you experiencing this same phenomenon? I would appreciate
> knowing if any others are having similar experinces with the ETSI site.
> 
> Best regards,
> Ron Pickard
> rpick...@hypercom.com
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
> 
> To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
>  majord...@ieee.org
> with the single line:
>  unsubscribe emc-pstc
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>  Jim Bacher:  jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com
>  Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
>  Richard Nute:   ri...@ieee.org
> 
> 
> 


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ETSI Document Downloading

[Ron Pickard]

To all,

Have any of you had any difficulties lately downloading documents from the
ETSI site? I'm experiencing no problems whatsoever getting to the point of
identifying the document(s) I wish to download. The problem is after I put
in my EOL identifier and clicking the download button, the ETSI system
seems to go into cardiac arrest.

Are any of you experiencing this same phenomenon? I would appreciate
knowing if any others are having similar experinces with the ETSI site.

Best regards,
Ron Pickard
rpick...@hypercom.com



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CE Directive for Batteries

[Hougaard, Niels]

There is an EC directive for batteries and accumulators holding dangerous
materials:
Directive 91/157/EEC with two adaptation directives: 93/86/EEC and
98/101/EC.

I only have these directives in Danish, so I don't think it would be of any
help faxing you them.

Venlig hilsen/Regards

Niels Hougaard
EMC Engineer, B.Sc.E.E
BARCO AS/Communication Systems
Phone direct: +45 39170815
Fax: +45 39170010
Mailto:niels.houga...@barco.com
www.barco.com


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RE: FW: CE Directive for Batteries

[WOODS]

The Battery Directive is 91/157/EC and amended by 93/86/EC and 98/101/EC.
Other safety directives may apply to the final product.

Richard Woods

--
From:  jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com
[SMTP:jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com]
Sent:  Friday, March 03, 2000 9:16 AM
To:  emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject:  Fwd:FW: CE  Directive for Batteries


forwarded for israel_yeshu...@scitex.com  ... Jim


Forward Header_
Subject:FW: CE  Directive for Batteries 
Author: Israel Yeshurun 
Date:   3/3/00 12:43 PM



>Dear all 
  
Does anyone  know by what EC Directive (if any) a  Battery
(Description:
Lead, rechargeable, sealed, portable)   that is provided in a
dedicated
carrying case,  is covered ?   The May 1996 edition of " ...the
Links
between Products, Directive and Standards.." by CENELEC does not
say.If
not covered by an  EC Directive has it to be CE Marked ?

 Best Regards,   

> Israel Yeshurun,Scitex Corporation,  Herzlia,  ISRAEL.  
> 
>   


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Fwd:FW: CE Directive for Batteries

[Jim Bacher]

forwarded for israel_yeshu...@scitex.com  ... Jim


Forward Header_
Subject:FW: CE  Directive for Batteries 
Author: Israel Yeshurun 
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date:   3/3/00 12:43 PM



>Dear all 
  
Does anyone  know by what EC Directive (if any) a  Battery (Description:
Lead, rechargeable, sealed, portable)   that is provided in a dedicated
carrying case,  is covered ?   The May 1996 edition of " ...the Links
between Products, Directive and Standards.." by CENELEC does not say.If
not covered by an  EC Directive has it to be CE Marked ?

 Best Regards,   

> Israel Yeshurun,Scitex Corporation,  Herzlia,  ISRAEL.  
> 
>   


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Fwd:FW: Protection for Revolving Drum

[Jim Bacher]

forwarded for israel_yeshu...@scitex.com  Jim

Forward Header_
Subject:FW: Protection for Revolving Drum
Author: Israel Yeshurun 
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date:   3/2/00 6:59 PM




>   Hello  group members ! 
> 
>  I  am looking for a safety device intended for protection against an
> Hazardous Revolving Drum. The drum is enclosed by a protective enclosure
> that is equipped with an access door.I can not use the approach (that
> I think is taken by  Washing Machines manufacturers ?)  of using a time
> delay solenoid for locking the access door until the drum has stopped.
> 
>   I would expect the desired device to rely upon measuring of the drum
> revolving speed and compare it to a predetermined (low enough) speed
> value.   If the measured speed is low enough the device will  operate a
> solenoid that will allow the operator to open the  door and get access to
> the drum. 
> 
>Probably a magnet or other component should be attached to the drum
> surface for this purpose.
> 
> And, very Important,  we need the device to have safety approvals:
> BSI or VDE or TUV, UL etc.
> 
> Many thanks for any contribution !
> 
>  Best Regards   Israel Yeshurun, Product Safety Engineer.  Scitex
> Corporation,   Israel.


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Extremes of Operating Ambient Temperature for ITE

[Peter Merguerian]

Hello There!

For IEC1010 Type products (measurement and test equipment), the standard
specifies it is written for units operating from 5 - 45 deg C. For any
other ambient operating temperature, additional tests should be made to
ensure an equivalent level of asfety is achieved.

What about IEC 950/ UL1950? The standard is based on a 25 deg C ambient. It
also has formula to use for limits of temperature rises above for equipment
rated for a higher ambient operating temperature. However, nothing is
mentioned regarding lower than 25 deg C ambient temperatures. 

I have seen many units Listed/CE Approved with an ambient operating
temperature say of -20 deg C to 60 deg C without additional tests in the
Listing/CE Reports. 

Any comments would be appreciated.
Peter Merguerian
Managing Director
Product Testing Division
I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd.
Hacharoshet 26, POB 211
Or Yehuda 60251, Israel

Tel: 972-3-5339022 Fax: 972-3-5339019
e-mail: pmerguer...@itl.co.il
website: http://www.itl.co.il 






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RE: Technical Documentation

[Gert Gremmen]

In my opinion both TCF and Technical Documentation is meant to be the same
in EC language. It may reside everywhere the manufacturer thinks it is best.
It must be available however to the one putting the product on the market.

In legal terms, if you are USA based manufacturer, you rep in Europe is
putting your product on the market. That means that the authorities will
pursue your rep in case of compliance problems with your product. You may
understand that a rep who want to  commercially survive will not do business
with you without a decent civil contract deviating all consequences,
commercially and legally to your side of the ocean.

If he doesn't, he is unaware, and putting his business in danger, if he has
the bad luck of you making a mistake (in EMC compliance f.a.) and your
competitor making bad use of that.

What do you all think of that ??? Please reply.

Regards,

Gert Gremmen, (Ing)

ce-test, qualified testing

===
Web presence  http://www.cetest.nl
CE-shop http://www.cetest.nl/ce_shop.htm
/-/ Compliance testing is our core business /-/
===


>>-Original Message-
>>From: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf
>>Of Stafford, Jim
>>Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 8:49 PM
>>To: Dick Grobner
>>Cc: IEEE EMC BB
>>Subject: RE: Technical Documentation
>>
>>
>>
>>In the R&TTE, under the conformity assessment procedure for internal
>>production control (which is for the self declaration route)  states
>>
>>"3. Where neither the manufacturer nor his authorised representative is
>>established within the Community, the obligation to keep the technical
>>documentation available is the responsibility  of the person who
>>places the
>>product on the Community market"
>>
>>I interpreted this to be that the techinical documenation (not the "TCF")
>>needs to be in the Community.
>>
>>However, conformity assessement for the "TCF" route with a notified body
>>states
>>"The manufacturer or his authorised representative established within the
>>Community or the person responsible for placing the apparatus on
>>the market
>>must keep the file for a period ending at least 10 years after the last
>>apparatus has been manufactured at the dsposal of the relevant national
>>authorities of any Member States for inspection"
>>
>>There is no condition as whether the manufacturer must reside within the
>>Community. I assume because the notified body is essentially
>>maintaining it.
>>
>>It appears (of course I will have to read it several more times) that  the
>>location of the technical documentation(whether in the form of a "formal"
>>tcf or a praf (courtesy of John Allen)) depends upon the confomity
>>assessment procedure used.
>>
>>I have not gone back to the EMC or LVD directive to check this.
>>I would be nice if all the directives where consistent in terminology as
>>well as the documentation process.
>>
>>jim stafford
>>carrier access corp.
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: Dick Grobner [mailto:dick.grob...@medgraph.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 8:58 AM
>>To: 'Stafford, Jim'
>>Cc: 'emc-p...@ieee.org'
>>Subject: RE: Technical Documentation
>>
>>
>>Within the Medical Device Directive, 93/42/EEC,  Annex VII it states as:
>>
>>"The manufacturer must prepare the technical documentation described in
>>Section 3 (TDF). The manufacturer or his authorized representative
>>established within the community must make this documentation,
>>including the
>>declaration of conformity, available to the national authorities for
>>inspection purposes for a period ending at least five years after the last
>>product has been manufactured."
>>
>>It seems it can be either one. However - our Authorized Representative has
>>requested a copy of our technical documentation file and we obliged.
>>There is also a similar requirement in Article 10 of the EMC Directive
>>89/336/EEC.
>>Hope this helps.
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: Stafford, Jim [mailto:jstaff...@carrieraccess.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 1:50 PM
>>To: IEEE EMC BB
>>Subject: RE: Techinical Documentation
>>
>>
>>
>>a couple of questions to round out this thread.
>>
>>Let me start off with definitions
>>  TCF : document for "type" approval by competent body
>>  Technical documentation file (TDF): manufacturer's documentation
>>that show conformity with essential requirements.
>>
>>
>>1) Can either of the these files mentioned above (which depends upon the
>>certification route) be held by a foreign manufacturer (non-EC
>>member) or do
>>they need to be held
>>within the community by authorized representative?
>>
>>2) Does this vary depending upon the directive(s) to which conformity is
>>being shown?
>>
>>
>>jim stafford
>>carrier access corporation
>>jstaff...@carrieraccess.com
>>
>>
>>---
>>This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
>>Technical Committee emc-pstc di

RE: CB

[James, Chris]

the link below is wrong - should be 

www.cbscheme.org

(no uk on the end)

-Original Message-
From: pgodf...@icomply.com [mailto:pgodf...@icomply.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 7:37 PM
To: pmerguer...@itl.co.il; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: CB



You may want to try www.cbscheme.org.uk

> -Original Message-
> From: pmerguer...@itl.co.il [SMTP:pmerguer...@itl.co.il]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 11:34 AM
> To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject:  CB
> 
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> Does anyone know a good sight where I can have a good explanation of the
> CB
> Scheme? I checked the "CB" in safetylink and it does not give a good
> explanation (advantages, etc.). Anyone knows of any other site on the
> internet?
> Peter Merguerian
> Managing Director
> Product Testing Division
> I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd.
> Hacharoshet 26, POB 211
> Or Yehuda 60251, Israel
> 
> Tel: 972-3-5339022 Fax: 972-3-5339019
> e-mail: pmerguer...@itl.co.il
> website: http://www.itl.co.il 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
> 
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> 

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Re: Technical Construction File

[carlos . perkins]

A small addition to Nick's excellent summary of the Routes to Compliance:

The TCF route can also be used when Harmonised Standards exist, but the
manufacturer chooses not to (or can't) use all (or any) of them.

Cheers,



   Carlos A J Perkins
   Compliance Manager
   MEI
   Eskdale Rd. Winnersh Triangle
   Wokingham, Berks, RG41 5AQ UK
   Mobile:  07818 456961
   Tel :  +44 (0) 118-944-6461
   Fax : +44 (0) 118-944-6412
   Email : carlos.perk...@eu.effem.com
   www.meiglobal.com

-







Please respond to Nick Williams 


To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
cc:  (bcc: Carlos A. Perkins/WIN/Effem)
From:   Nick Williams  on 02/03/2000 11:58

Subject:  Re: Technical Construction File






There seems to be come confusion on the matter of technical files and
technical construction files, and referring to the text of the CE
mark directives, it's not difficult to see why since there is no
consistency in the way in which the terms are used. My understanding
is as follows.

1.With the exception of the EMC Directive, all CE mark directives
require the Responsible Person to compile a file of documentation
which demonstrates how the manufacturer justifies their claim of
compliance with the requirements of the relevant directive.

2. This collection of documentation is known variously as a Technical
File or a Technical Construction File. Except in the EMC Directive,
these terms seem to be used interchangeably to mean the same thing.

3. There is no provision in any directive to require that the
information relevant to compliance with one directive need be kept
separate from that for any other and therefore in most cases a
combined technical file which covers compliance with all directives
(and lots of other information) makes sense from an organisational
point of view.

4. Under the EMC Directive, a manufacturer has three options for
compliance. These are the Standards route, the Technical Construction
File route and the Type Approval route.

5. Under the Standards route, the manufacturer simply claims
compliance with the requirements of the relevant harmonised
standards, and thus with the requirements of the directives. While he
would, in most cases, be foolish to do this without having some
documentary evidence that tests have been completed and passed, this
is not mandated under the Directive.

6. Under the Type Approval route, the manufacturer gives the product
to a suitably qualified test house who test it and issue a
certificate of compliance. This method of complying with the
directive is primarily intended for communications (transmitting)
apparatus and therefore the new R&TTE Directive will have a major
bearing on much equipment which has formerly followed this route.

7. The Technical Construction File (TCF) route to compliance with the
EMC Directive is intended for use in those situations where the other
two routes do not apply. This will be either because the apparatus is
not transmitting apparatus, or because there are no appropriate
harmonised standards.

8. Under the TCF route, the manufacturer creates a justification for
a claim of compliance with the requirements of the EMC Directive
based on such factors as the location and use of the equipment, the
results of any tests which have been done and the requirements of any
standards which are relevant, if only in part.

9. The key point about the EMC directive's TCF is that for it to be
used as the basis of CE marking a product, the file must be submitted
to a Competent Body (a term defined in the directive and distinct
from a Notified Body) who must examine it and agree to the logic used
to justify the claim of compliance. Thus, the TCF route to complying
with the EMC directive is NOT a self-certification process.

10. To cloud the matter even further, there is a (complicated)
provision within the Machinery Directive which allows for a
manufacturer to involve a notified body in the creation and storage
of the Technical File for certain machinery. This really only has
relevance in the context of annex IV machines which require type
approval (etc.). I don't know of any situation where such a provision
has been applied, and it's a mystery to me and to several other
people I have spoken to about this subject as to quite what the
Commssion was thinking when it drafted this section of the directive.

As I mentioned at the beginning, the EC have done us no favours in
being muddled about the terminology they apply in the different
directives, but it is important to understand that the TCF specified
under the EMC Directive has a quite distinct and different legal
status to the technical documentation requirements of the other
directives.

Hope that helps!

Nick.


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T

Re: Searching for a Design for EMC email list

[Doug]

I opened my own discussion group in this 
regard with OneList a couple of weeks ago. 
It was started to discuss issues specific 
to board design techniques used or required 
to pass all sorts of agency testing.  I have 
only a few people on it.  And I'm not sure 
what the response will be.  

If you or anyone else is interested, I would 
invite you to join.  The more the resources 
we'll have.  The membership list is closed. 
No one can view it.  The group is not intended 
to detract from this or any other group. 

To view the details of it, go to  

 http://www.onelist.com/community/pcbtechniques 

Regards,  Doug McKean 


Jose Rodriguez wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
>   I understand that this Forum was founded to discuss product safety issues.  
> And also discussed are product EMC and other product regulatory issues.
> 
>   I am trying to find an email list forum that deals with product design 
> issues as related to EMC.
> 
>   For example:
>   Discussions about available CAD software for EM radiation of PCBs.
>   Comments on validity of "rules of thumb" and when they can be applied to 
> reduce EM radiation and susceptibility.
>   PCB design for EMC.
>  etc, etc etc
> 
>   Could you direct me to such an email list? (the closest I have found is the 
> Signal Integrity at "si-l...@silab.eng.sun.com", but it mainly deals with SI 
> issues).
> 
>   Best Regards,
> 
> Jose

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Re: Surge Testing per EN 55024/EN61000-4-5

[rc]

In the Test-Setup Section, Conditions during Testing of EN 55024 it is said:

Test should be made in the most representative mode.

To my understanding, in the present days most ITE Equipment and Peripherals
comes with a 3-prong plug, i.e. it is grounded.

So, if the EUT has external ports intended to be connected to  ITE Peripherals ,
Surge Testing should be done Line to Ground, with the secondary side of the
Equipment Grounded, or with a Grounded ITE Peripheral connected.

Dipl.-Ing. Rene Charton
Manager
EMC Services
_
TUV Rheinland Taiwan Ltd.
TAIPEI HEAD OFFICE
Spring Plaza Building
14F, No.6, Min Chuan E. Rd., Sec. 3,
Taipei 104, Taiwan, R. O. C.
Tel. (02) 2516 6040 Ext. [ 086 ]   e-mail:  r...@twn.tuv.com






Please respond to "Jim Hulbert" 

To:   emc-p...@ieee.org
cc:(bcc: Rene Charton/TUV-Twn)
Subject:  Surge Testing per EN 55024/EN61000-4-5






Colleagues,

EN 55024 calls for surge pulses to be applied line-to-line and line-to-earth on
the AC mains port and line-to-ground on signal and telecommunications ports that
connect directly to outdoor cables.   However, if my EUT is encased in plastic
covers and has no direct earth ground connection (class 2 power supply), is the
line-to-line test on the AC mains the only surge test that I need to apply?   It
seems to me that performing a line-to-earth test on either the AC mains port or
on signal/telecommunications ports is not warranted since the basic standard EN
61000-4-5 does not specify placing the EUT over a reference ground plane.   With
no reference ground plane and no direct ground connection how can a test be
applied with respect to ground?

Jim Hulbert
Pitney Bowes



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Re: Fwd:Re: UL 891

[Robert Macy]

Wouldn't BABT have such a facility, too?

  - Robert -

-Original Message-
From: Jim Bacher 
To: emc-p...@ieee.org 
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Thursday, March 02, 2000 3:51 PM
Subject: Fwd:Re: UL 891


>
>forwarded for Chris Dupres.. Jim
>
>
>Forward Header_
>Subject:Re: UL 891
>Author: cdup...@cs.com
>Date:   3/1/00 2:51 PM
>
>In a message dated 01/03/00 08:40:29 GMT Standard Time,
phsm...@excite.co.uk
>writes:
>
><<
> UL891 requires a 100 KA short circuit test. I know of facilities in the US
>that can cope with this test. Does anybody know of a facility in the UK
that
>could do it also? >>
>
>Hi Paul.
>
>Speak to ASTA.  (Association of Short circuit Testing Agencies?)They
>should be in the book.  They have very high current testing facilities and
>are the people who rate distribution centres etc., for fault current
>protection and so on.
>
>Chris Dupres
>Surrey, UK.
>



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RE: Demo Units Sent to EU w/o CE ?

[David Spencer]

Jim,
I have always used a label that states:
"Demonstration Equipment Only"
"Not Tested for Compliance"
Regards,
Dave Spencer
Oresis Communications
Compliance Engineer

-Original Message-
From: Lyons, Jim [mailto:jim.ly...@gtech.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 2:29 PM
To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org'
Subject: Demo Units Sent to EU w/o CE ?



Can anyone tell me if there are provisions for sending prototype electrical
equipment to Europe before it has been CE approved? This equipment would
normally be subject to the LVD and EMC directive, and would be used at shows
to demonstrate the equipment. It is possible that attendies at the show
would touch or operate the equipment.

Thanks for any comments or insight.

Jim Lyons
Mgr - Product Compliance
GTECH Corp.


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RE: Web Sites

[David Spencer]

How True!
Self certifying declarations of conformity have created a world wide
nightmare for the compliance and quality professions.  The tendency Gert
kindly termed "Selective Unawareness" is really an out right attempt to
deceive!  At a previous employer, we had a terrible time finding AC-AC power
adapters that had any type of regulatory documentation beyond the claim of
the CE mark!  We had a similar situation with a modem manufacturer who did
not have UL/CSA but claimed CE compliance...through the mystical process of
self certification they didn't need access to EN60950.

I believe this falls in line with the topic of TCF's.  There should never be
a question about providing documentation dealing with test reports and it
should be a REQUIREMENT to do business when marketing  materials hawk
products as compliant.

I wonder if instances like those Duncan mentioned are not subject to
litigation under the truth in advertising laws?

My two cents,
Dave Spencer
Oresis Communications
Compliance Engineer

-Original Message-
From: Gert Gremmen [mailto:cet...@cetest.nl]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 1:18 PM
To: duncan.ho...@snellwilcox.com; s_doug...@ecrm.com;
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Web Sites 




I want to agree very very much with this...

Companies are too reluctant in issuing safety certificates, and
this is not always because they don't understand, but because they actually
DO.

Many many times components are not really tested, just one in a list of
related types. A switch using snap-on contacts may be approved , the one
with solder joints is not. The approval mark above the table may mislead
you.
Possibly both switches are safe, but only one was submitted for testing.
Of course the manufacturer will not send you a approval certificate
if there is none !!

Those who are doing electrical safety tests and electrical components must
all
be familiar with this selective unawareness !

Regards,

Gert Gremmen, (Ing)

ce-test, qualified testing

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>>-Original Message-
>>From: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf
>>Of duncan.ho...@snellwilcox.com
>>Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 10:57 AM
>>To: s_doug...@ecrm.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>>Subject: Re:Web Sites
>>
>>
>>
>>Scott and group,
>>I agree this is a well thought out site. I'm doing a similar
>>exercise at the
>>moment and trying to get hold of all of the approval certificates
>>for components
>>within one of our products. This can be hard work owing to the
>>variation in the
>>quality and quantity of information available.
>>
>>One site that I believe stands out above all others is
>>www.wickmannusa.com.
>>Again this is not an advert for the company but for the common
>>sense layout of
>>the site, and... get this
>>ON LINE APPROVAL CERTIFICATES! (downloadable in PDF form)
>>
>>Its interesting how the ease of obtaining these certificates varies. Some
>>companies you call know exactly what you mean and send the
>>details stright away,
>>whereas others are clueless or send you copies of their ISO9000
>>certificate of
>>approval or technical specs. One manufacturer of removable
>>storage devices I
>>recently contatcted has even refered my request to its head
>>office as the lady I
>>spoke to didn't know what I was asking for and believed that
>>safety related
>>documentation was 'company confidential'
>>Another one of my annoyances is manufacturers who quote 'flame retarded to
>>UL94-V0' Is it listed? sometimes it is sometimes it is not so why
>>dont they say
>>either 'UL listed Exx or 'manufactured from UL94-V0 material
>>Exx' or
>>manufactured from non UL listed material that has passed a UL94-V0 test'
>>
>>The point I am trying to make is that I wish that all
>>suppliers/manufacturers
>>were as good as the best ones and have an organised system for
>>retaining and
>>issuing these certificates and give clear and concise information
>>on approvals
>>and listings. Some companies you call, you would think that you
>>are the first
>>and only person who has ever asked for the certificates. Surely
>>others must ask
>>for these on a regular basis? A stark contrast from the best ones
>>where they
>>know what you require and have it ready to hand.
>>Regards,
>>Duncan
>>
>>
>>Reply Separator
>>Subject:Web Sites
>>Author: "Scott Douglas" 
>>Date:   3/1/00 9:22 AM
>>
>>
>>Hello All,
>>
>>I have been traveling the internet for the past several weeks
>>tracking down
>>agency approval information for the various components we use in our
>>products. Of the more than 30 sites I have visited, one stands out
>>particularly well. It is a good example of how a well designed web site
>>could function, navigation was always clear, th