RE: FCC Part 68 and prototypes
FCC Part 68 and prototypesYes: There is a process, interestingly enough, call Field Trials. However, it is somewhat Fuzzy since the outsourcing of the Part 68 process by the FCC. Bellcore, now Telecordia, was the holder of the procedure. What you will need to do is to contact the correct representative for the Telco to whose lines you wish to attach your modem. You will need to be able to show that the product has been sucessfully tested and complies with the FCC Part 68 Requirements (which includes TIA/EIA IS 968). You will need to complete a several page document and have signed by an officer of the company. You will also need to have the name of the responsible person , and their phone number, who will monitor the units during the tests. The telco will give you a number (similar to an (old) FCC Part 68 Registration number) which is to be located on the product (paper label with number typed on it). A few other minor items you will become aware of during time you are putting this together. The maximum number of units is limited to 12. However, if the product does not comply with the requirements of Part 68, no Telco will allow you to attach. So, as an alternative, make sure the products comply, generate a SDoC (Suppliers Declaration of Conformity) per TIA/EIA TSB-129, submit the required copy, information and $300 to ACTA and you can attach. If you need more information, please send me a private e-mail. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab. Operations Sanmina-SCI -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Georgerian, Richard Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 12:13 PM To: IEEE emc-pstc Subject: FCC Part 68 and prototypes Hello All, So far we have only tested our products to Part 68 and have not, until now, been requested to connect prototype telecom devices to the network. Is there a process that the FCC has for such prototypes for a limited amount of time and small number of units (less than 10), before the device is fully certified? The prototype model has either been certified by an earlier older model but is now being upgraded or the prototypes have not been certified yet, but require some field trials at a customer site for evaluation. Thanks in-advance. Richard Georgerian Compliance Engineer Carrier Access Corporation 5395 Pearl Parkway Boulder, CO 80301 USA Tele: 303-218-5748 Fax: 303-218-5503 mailto:rgeorger...@carrieraccess.com * This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution, or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving them in any manner. Thank you. *
Relative merits of various logic families in not generating RFI
Group, What are the relative merits of the various logic families HCT, HC, AC, ACT with regard to generating RFI? I remember one time we replaced an HCT which made more noise than Schottky TTL due to an internal overlap in the switching causing a power rail shorting spike. I'm sure by now that most IC vendors have addressed the EMC problems associated with poorly designed chips, but what's the status on these now? What's the order of preference? Which one's best? - Robert - Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com 408 286 3985 fx 408 297 9121 AJM International Electronics Consultants 619 North First St, San Jose, CA 95112 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Temporarily disabling a fire fighting system
John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk wrote: You are probably not allowed to turn the system off unless the building is unoccupied except by fire-fighters and a minimum maintenance crew. Not really. All that's needed is to call the central office for the alarms telling them to put the system on Test for a certain length of time. The central office will ignore any and all alarms during that time. But past that time, they'll call the appropriate emergency crews. At least that's what's done here in the U.S. Don't know about elsewhere. Now maybe it's worth visiting that issue when writing up the user manuals. - Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Temporarily disabling a fire fighting system
John Woodgate wrote: But what advice to you give about the circumstances under which the system may be switched off? The building must surely be substantially unoccupied, so that lives are not at risk. But there may be other requirements as well; the insurers wouldn't like the building to burn down even if there were no people in it.. John makes very good points. You must balance dual objectives of protecting lives/property and preventing false alarms (hollering 'wolf'). 1) If mains is disabled, the Control Panel reports a power loss fault to the Central Station which investigates and/or notifies authorities. This is not recommended: fire and police departments do not appreciate false alarms; some even charge fines. 2) An authorized user code is needed to disarm via keypad console; the Central Station will be alerted to the status change but will probably not investigate unless other faults are sent. Disarming the fire detection for maintenance (e.g. replace batteries, add or replace sensors) requires maintenance-level access. This puts the building at risk, but down time is presumably short, and the maintenance person is likely on site in case of fire. 3) If the entire system is wiped out (explosion, cutting telco, etc.) the Central Station automatically supervises the site on a regular basis and detects missing communicating devices. The Central Station can investigate the fault and/or notify authorities. The extent of protection depends on system installation, programming and the Central Station service agreement. Proposed functionality levels are given in prEN50131-n and prEN30133-n. Local requirements may apply as well. David Sterner Alarm Device Manufacturing Co. ADEMCO Group, Syosset NY -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 10:29 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Temporarily disabling a fire fighting system I read in !emc-pstc that david_ster...@ademco.com wrote (in 2DF7C54A75B dd311b61700508b64231002c5a...@nyhqex1.ademcohq.com) about 'Temporarily disabling a fire fighting system', on Tue, 19 Mar 2002: Our Installation Instructions for Fire/Burglary Alarm Control Panels specify permanent wiring to the mains for security reasons. However, a double-pole circuit breaker on the branch circuit supplying the control panel is recommended to satisfy the LVD. In the US-Canada we have optional radio- and cellular links so the panel with aux. battery reports faults even if mains and telephone are severed by intruders. To temporarily disable the system it is best to enter the proper commands on a keypad console. But what advice to you give about the circumstances under which the system may be switched off? The building must surely be substantially unoccupied, so that lives are not at risk. But there may be other requirements as well; the insurers wouldn't like the building to burn down even if there were no people in it.. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: product modifications by the end user
Et Al: I fully agree with Bob Wilson's comments concerning a good solution. It is only when marketing becomes responsible for its decisions will it provide marketing information that is truly useful. Regards, Jeff -Original Message- From: Robert Wilson [mailto:robert_wil...@tirsys.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 12:16 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: product modifications by the end user One solution that would soon get rid of the problem at its source, would be to have the Marketing Moron do a few of the upgrades himself. With any luck, he would find out firsthand the effects of electrical current flow through the human body. :) Bob Wilson TIR Systems Ltd. Vancouver. -Original Message- From: Colgan, Chris [mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com] Sent: March 19, 2002 4:36 AM To: 'Emc-Pstc' (E-mail) Subject: product modifications by the end user Hello good people Just say someone in your marketing department came up with the bright idea of selling upgrade kits to an unqualified, untrained end user that involved removing the top cover of a product. In the process not only would the victim be exposed to hazardous voltages (if the product was still connected to the mains) but he/she would also have to wire up mains connections. There would also be a possibility that critical insulation would be disturbed. Apart from telling them that they were mad and suggesting that someone could be killed or seriously injured, would there be any black and white legislation that you could use to help bin this idea? I can't find anything specific in EN60065 or the LVD. Thanks for any input Chris Colgan Compliance Engineer TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627 *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159 * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com * http://www.tagmclaren.com ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** The contents of this E-mail are confidential and for the exclusive use of the intended recipient. If you receive this E-mail in error, please delete it from your system immediately and notify us either by E-mail, telephone or fax. You should not copy, forward or otherwise disclose the content of the E-mail. TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, 11 Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU Telephone : 01480 415600 (+44 1480 415600) Facsimile : 01480 52159 (+44 1480 52159) ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing
FCC Part 68 and prototypes
Hello All, So far we have only tested our products to Part 68 and have not, until now, been requested to connect prototype telecom devices to the network. Is there a process that the FCC has for such prototypes for a limited amount of time and small number of units (less than 10), before the device is fully certified? The prototype model has either been certified by an earlier older model but is now being upgraded or the prototypes have not been certified yet, but require some field trials at a customer site for evaluation. Thanks in-advance. Richard Georgerian Compliance Engineer Carrier Access Corporation 5395 Pearl Parkway Boulder, CO 80301 USA Tele: 303-218-5748 Fax: 303-218-5503 mailto:rgeorger...@carrieraccess.com * This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution, or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving them in any manner. Thank you. *
Re: product modifications by the end user
I read in !emc-pstc that Allen, John john.al...@uk.thalesgroup.com wrote (in 999c839e7e27d41185ec00d0b7473692024cd...@norway.int.rdel.co.u k) about 'product modifications by the end user', on Tue, 19 Mar 2002: John Allen Thales Bracknell (This is probably my last post on the forum as I will be leaving Thales tomorrow! You don't have to leave the group for that reason. (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Conductive Coatings/Conductive Plastic
Did some research into switching over from conductive coated plastics to conductive plastics. The turn off was due to the metallic additions to the plastic with conductive plastics, the molds wore out faster than plastic molds. Tooling was expensive for the product in mind, so I have no idea if that's a factor with yours. - Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
purchasing BER testing devices
Where can I find inexpensive BER testing devices for testing the receiver sensitivity and other tests required by EN 300 113? Thanks, Stuart Lopata --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Conductive Coatings/Conductive Plastic
John, from my research on the topic long ago (we decided against it by the way) this is pretty much what I found. Another issue to be concerned with on the fibers is that generally they are part of the plastic enclosure itself, and as such they cause problems with the case tooling, Including wearing it out much faster. New tools aren't cheap. The electoless coatings etc, have a hidden cost in the EPA requirements for applying this stuff. You will be paying for that on each part as well. Make sure you know the true cost of the metallized part compared to the metal part- that will have a product volume component to it. The tool guys will have to watch radii and small parts to make certain they can be coating and that the material doesn't wick away from edges and corners. This was a while ago - so maybe some of the problems have been solved. Gary -Original Message- From: John Juhasz [mailto:jjuh...@fiberoptions.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 5:42 AM To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org' Subject: Conductive Coatings/Conductive Plastic Seeking comment on Conductive Coatings vs. Conductive Plastic Having dealt with metal (primarily steel) enclosures, my knowledge of conductive coatings/conductive plastics is strictly based on what I have been able to gleen from simple research and some conversation. It is my understanding the conductive plastic (metal fibers mixed with the plastic) is less effective at high frequencies ( 200MHz) than plastic with a conductive coating (i.e. electroless plating). Further, from a processing perspective (notwithstanding the shielding effectiveness), if good contact between mating pieces is required, conductive plastic is not a top ranked choice - the amount of fiber that is actually exposed to make contact is difficult to control and filing during product assembly may be required to expose sufficient fiber. And in both cases - SE and physical contact - the preparation (mixing) of the plastic/metal fiber needs to be tightly controlled (and is more difficult to control), with potential for greater variances from to batch to batch than there is for plated plastic. Comments please. GE Interlogix John A. Juhasz Product Qualification Compliance Engr. Fiber Options Div. Bohemia, NY 11716 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: product modifications by the end user
Hi Folks Safety compliance for an add-in card is not an impossibiity! You can follow EN 60950 and come up with a compliant product design which allows user access to internal SELV status parts. This is often the case with PC's. You may then design a card for installation within such a product which, together with the installation instructions, is deemed a compliant product. The same is true of certain games machines having SELV cartridge ports where a cover is removed allowing expansion memory etc. to be fitted. PCs designed in this way often require no tools to remove the access cover, some have knurled nuts or twist locks. I even beleive there is a UL scheme (although I haven't checked for a few months) to cover PCs designed in this way and also a scheme to cover a UL Listed Accessory card for use in these. This scheme includes the documentation in the listing. There may still be some EMC issues to address but safety compliance is not impossible! Bill Ellingford -Original Message- From: geor...@lexmark.com [mailto:geor...@lexmark.com] Sent: 19 March 2002 14:26 To: Colgan, Chris Cc: 'Emc-Pstc' (E-mail) Subject: Re: product modifications by the end user Chris, Every set of existing rules has an intent, to be achieved by following the letter of the rules. Personally, I always consider meeting the intent far superior to meeting the letter of rules. Example, the letter of the law says we must stop at stop signs before proceeding. The intent is to avoid accidents. We all know that sometimes we must exceed the rules, i.e. defensive driving, because the situation demands it. We also know that if the stop sign is in the middle of a desert, and we can see 5 miles in all directions, one would be meeting the intent of the law if no other cars could be seen, an we did not stop at the sign. The intent of IEC 60950 and like standards is to avoid personal injury and property damage. End users are generally considered operators under the standard. As such, they are to be reasonably prevented from access to hazards in the equipment. This does not mean that the equipment must be in a welded steel box, but that tools are required to enter hazardous areas, and the operator manual does not direct the operator to access such areas. The General Principles of 60950 (page 19) clearly states under Electric Shock : Prevent operator access to parts at hazardous voltage by fixed or locked covers, interlocks, etc. Page 17 indicates that operators are assumed to be oblivious to electrical hazards. When all else fails in such situations as yours, I get something in writing indicating that my team has explained the hazards and risks, and the the Product Manager (or other responsible party) understands and accepts these risks. This usually closes the issue. George Colgan, Chris chris.colgan%tagmclaren@interlock.lexmark.com on 03/19/2002 07:36:09 AM Please respond to Colgan, Chris chris.colgan%tagmclaren@interlock.lexmark.com To: 'Emc-Pstc' (E-mail) emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: product modifications by the end user Hello good people Just say someone in your marketing department came up with the bright idea of selling upgrade kits to an unqualified, untrained end user that involved removing the top cover of a product. In the process not only would the victim be exposed to hazardous voltages (if the product was still connected to the mains) but he/she would also have to wire up mains connections. There would also be a possibility that critical insulation would be disturbed. Apart from telling them that they were mad and suggesting that someone could be killed or seriously injured, would there be any black and white legislation that you could use to help bin this idea? I can't find anything specific in EN60065 or the LVD. Thanks for any input Chris Colgan Compliance Engineer TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627 *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159 * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com * http://www.tagmclaren.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list * --- This message is from the IEEE EMC
RE: Conductive Coatings/Conductive Plastic
I've had a fair amount of experience with both conductive plastics, and conductive coatings. Your comments are basically correct. A lot depends on what you are trying to achieve, both in terms of attenuation at a particular frequency, and how much actual attenuation you need. In one project I was involved with, we needed around 60dB of attenuation at 400 MHz. Conductive plastics were mostly useless, although the ones that were best (but still not good enough) were those filled with long strand stainless steel. As you mention, one of the big problems is making contact, since there tends to be a microscopic film of insulating plastic formed over the surface of the molded object. In this project, we achieved excellent results with selective electroless copper plating (covered with a thin flash of nickel for corrosion resistance). Similar excellent results were obtained using Spraylat's non-corroding copper paint. The results were almost identical to using a die cast aluminum case at this frequency (the device was a 416 MHz, 5 Watt, hand held search and rescue satellite transmitter). The usual nickel-bearing paints were useless at this high frequency, and carbon-bearing paints were absolutely hopeless. The high resistivity of both relegates them to low frequency, low attenuation requirements. Another reasonable choice is Zinc Arc Deposition. Even though zinc has relatively poor conductivity, this process lays on so much of the stuff (up to 0.1mm, or 0.004), that the overall resistivity is relatively good. Of course, the extra thickness can cause other problems in assembly and so on. As far as conductive plastics are concerned, we found that the best (but still not great) results were obtained with high percentages of LONG STRAND stainless fiber content. Toshiba's EMI CLEAR line of resins also seemed somewhat promising. But one significant problem with these and other filled conductive resins is that the surface finish is lousy. In general, they require painting (with masking of the critical areas) after moulding to be presentable, and this costs almost as much as simply spraying a decent conductive coating on ordinary plastic, which would work better anyway! Bob Wilson TIR Systems Ltd. Vancouver. -Original Message- From: John Juhasz [mailto:jjuh...@fiberoptions.com] Sent: March 19, 2002 5:42 AM To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org' Subject: Conductive Coatings/Conductive Plastic Seeking comment on Conductive Coatings vs. Conductive Plastic Having dealt with metal (primarily steel) enclosures, my knowledge of conductive coatings/conductive plastics is strictly based on what I have been able to gleen from simple research and some conversation. It is my understanding the conductive plastic (metal fibers mixed with the plastic) is less effective at high frequencies ( 200MHz) than plastic with a conductive coating (i.e. electroless plating). Further, from a processing perspective (notwithstanding the shielding effectiveness), if good contact between mating pieces is required, conductive plastic is not a top ranked choice - the amount of fiber that is actually exposed to make contact is difficult to control and filing during product assembly may be required to expose sufficient fiber. And in both cases - SE and physical contact - the preparation (mixing) of the plastic/metal fiber needs to be tightly controlled (and is more difficult to control), with potential for greater variances from to batch to batch than there is for plated plastic. Comments please. GE Interlogix John A. Juhasz Product Qualification Compliance Engr. Fiber Options Div. Bohemia, NY 11716 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher:
RE: product modifications by the end user
One solution that would soon get rid of the problem at its source, would be to have the Marketing Moron do a few of the upgrades himself. With any luck, he would find out firsthand the effects of electrical current flow through the human body. :) Bob Wilson TIR Systems Ltd. Vancouver. -Original Message- From: Colgan, Chris [mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com] Sent: March 19, 2002 4:36 AM To: 'Emc-Pstc' (E-mail) Subject: product modifications by the end user Hello good people Just say someone in your marketing department came up with the bright idea of selling upgrade kits to an unqualified, untrained end user that involved removing the top cover of a product. In the process not only would the victim be exposed to hazardous voltages (if the product was still connected to the mains) but he/she would also have to wire up mains connections. There would also be a possibility that critical insulation would be disturbed. Apart from telling them that they were mad and suggesting that someone could be killed or seriously injured, would there be any black and white legislation that you could use to help bin this idea? I can't find anything specific in EN60065 or the LVD. Thanks for any input Chris Colgan Compliance Engineer TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627 *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159 * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com * http://www.tagmclaren.com ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** The contents of this E-mail are confidential and for the exclusive use of the intended recipient. If you receive this E-mail in error, please delete it from your system immediately and notify us either by E-mail, telephone or fax. You should not copy, forward or otherwise disclose the content of the E-mail. TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, 11 Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU Telephone : 01480 415600 (+44 1480 415600) Facsimile : 01480 52159 (+44 1480 52159) ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: product modifications by the end user
Hi Chris, In addition to what Richard has said, may I suggest that you take a serious look at the Product Liability Directive, 85/374/EEC along with its amending directive 1999/34/EC. Remember, that it is a fuzzy gray area, indeed, that separates product safety from product liability, no matter how descriptive the standards are. And, due diligence has left the building whereby untrained personnel is allowed into an unsafe area of your product(s), which might be considered as lawyer fodder. Do you really want to go there? Ultimately, the decision must be laid at the feet of your company's management. I hope this helps. Best regards, Ron Pickard rpick...@hypercom.com richwo...@tycoint.com Sent by: To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org owner-emc-pstc@majordomcc: o.ieee.org Subject: RE: product modifications by the end user 03/19/02 07:38 AM Please respond to richwoods The LVD has an essential requirement for the safety of the user from electrical shock - see 1d, 2a and 2d of Annex 1. This essential requirement is transposed into the user access requirements of EN 60065. Anytime the user instructions instruct the user to open an electrical enclosure, the design must be sufficient to ensure that the user cannot access hazardous parts. Instructing them to remove power is not sufficient. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International -Original Message- From: Colgan, Chris [mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 7:36 AM To: 'Emc-Pstc' (E-mail) Subject: product modifications by the end user Hello good people Just say someone in your marketing department came up with the bright idea of selling upgrade kits to an unqualified, untrained end user that involved removing the top cover of a product. In the process not only would the victim be exposed to hazardous voltages (if the product was still connected to the mains) but he/she would also have to wire up mains connections. There would also be a possibility that critical insulation would be disturbed. Apart from telling them that they were mad and suggesting that someone could be killed or seriously injured, would there be any black and white legislation that you could use to help bin this idea? I can't find anything specific in EN60065 or the LVD. Thanks for any input Chris Colgan Compliance Engineer TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627 *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159 * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com * http://www.tagmclaren.com ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** The contents of this E-mail are confidential and for the exclusive use of the intended recipient. If you receive this E-mail in error, please delete it from your system immediately and notify us either by E-mail, telephone or fax. You should not copy, forward or otherwise disclose the content of the E-mail. TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, 11 Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU Telephone : 01480 415600 (+44 1480 415600) Facsimile : 01480 52159 (+44 1480 52159) ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line:
Re: product modifications by the end user
I read in !emc-pstc that Colgan, Chris chris.col...@tagmclaren.com wrote (in AE0F4BD08FEAD211895900805FE67B1F01090F0D@CAT) about 'product modifications by the end user', on Tue, 19 Mar 2002: Just say someone in your marketing department came up with the bright idea of selling upgrade kits to an unqualified, untrained end user that involved removing the top cover of a product. In the process not only would the victim be exposed to hazardous voltages (if the product was still connected to the mains) but he/she would also have to wire up mains connections. There would also be a possibility that critical insulation would be disturbed. Apart from telling them that they were mad and suggesting that someone could be killed or seriously injured, would there be any black and white legislation that you could use to help bin this idea? I can't find anything specific in EN60065 or the LVD. You wouldn't find such a detailed matter in a well-written new-style Directive. In the EN, (1998 edition) it's in the first sentence of 8.4, if you can get the top off without using a tool, and the first sentence of 9.1.1 if you need a tool to get it off, but instruct the user to use a tool. Operation with the cover off then becomes a 'normal operating condition' under 4.2 and the product would be tested with the cover off as well as on. I agree that the EN is not very specific on this issue, and that is because no-one envisaged that any manufacturer would be daft enough to advise the user to use a tool to take the cover off! If your marketroid persists, I'll take the issue to the committee meeting in April and get a definite interpretation. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Earthing of conductive floor tiles
They can be. It depends upon what your requirements for conductivity with the floor are. You can also use plain old bare concrete floors without any coverage. They have been known to be sufficient for some conductive requirements. Concrete flooring can be sufficient for such things as storage or not-so-strict assembly areas. But, concrete can be dependent upon the water table and/or moisture content of the ground it's on. Or, the floor can be painted with conductive paint. A paint specifically made for floors. But you may have to monitor the floor more often. Paint has a tendency to chip. Or you can have the tiled flooring bonded to building earth ground with copper strips. Or, you may not have to have the tiles connected with copper strips. Best to have a defined goal of conductivity that you're going to need, then work from there. If you need clean room or telco/Bellcore or medical equipment mfr type grounding, you might consider using the tiles because their conductivity is repeatable and reliable no matter what. - Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Earthing of conductive floor tiles
Hi Arno, John gave you the short answer...the MFG should have installation instructions. In all of the installation I have been party, there is a grid of copper tape laid down in the conductive adhesive. This keeps the adhesive from getting excessively resistive over large areas. Surface resistance tests run anywhere from 100k-400k ohms when it's all done. Note that if you are installing relay racks or metal benches that you can run into ground loops. Have a Great Day, Dave Spencer Oresis Communications -Original Message- From: Arno van Kesteren To: Arno van Kesteren; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: 3/18/02 1:48 PM Subject: Earthing of conductive floor tiles Dear Group, Do conductive tiles in floors for ESD prevention have to be connected together (e.g. through a low impedance earth bond) ? Arno van Kesteren ESO Munich, Germany e-mail: avkes...@eso.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Temporarily disabling a fire fighting system
I read in !emc-pstc that david_ster...@ademco.com wrote (in 2DF7C54A75B dd311b61700508b64231002c5a...@nyhqex1.ademcohq.com) about 'Temporarily disabling a fire fighting system', on Tue, 19 Mar 2002: Our Installation Instructions for Fire/Burglary Alarm Control Panels specify permanent wiring to the mains for security reasons. However, a double-pole circuit breaker on the branch circuit supplying the control panel is recommended to satisfy the LVD. In the US-Canada we have optional radio- and cellular links so the panel with aux. battery reports faults even if mains and telephone are severed by intruders. To temporarily disable the system it is best to enter the proper commands on a keypad console. But what advice to you give about the circumstances under which the system may be switched off? The building must surely be substantially unoccupied, so that lives are not at risk. But there may be other requirements as well; the insurers wouldn't like the building to burn down even if there were no people in it.. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: product modifications by the end user
Chris I would be inclined to look at the General Product Safety Directive http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/lif/dat/1992/en_392L0059.html and the Product Liability Directive http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/lif/dat/1999/en_399L0034.html You would probably also have to look at case law which resulted from the application of these two directives - notably the latter! Probably means that you would need to talk of to relevant legal counsel (e.g. CMS Cameron McKenna = law...@cmck.com) who specialise in these directives. When you have shown how liable the company becomes under these, then maybe you can scare the pants of the marketing department! However, if for some reason, you do have to go ahead with these mod kits, then ensure you have extremely explicit instructions (what to do/not do) and diagrams - preceeed by a clear warning that the mods must only be performed by a techically trained and competant person, and that the owner should not proceed with the mods if he has any doubts on his ability to perform them safely. However, in the marketing department's defence, it must be said that even repairing your own car incorrectly can be extremely dangerous (far more so than these mod kits)- and yet you can buy the parts and the service manuals almost anywhere. So there is some case for saying that such modifications can be quite acceptable if performed by the right person with the correct tools and training. Regards John Allen Thales Bracknell (This is probably my last post on the forum as I will be leaving Thales tomorrow! You might also -Original Message- From: Colgan, Chris [mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com] Sent: 19 March 2002 12:36 To: 'Emc-Pstc' (E-mail) Subject: product modifications by the end user Hello good people Just say someone in your marketing department came up with the bright idea of selling upgrade kits to an unqualified, untrained end user that involved removing the top cover of a product. In the process not only would the victim be exposed to hazardous voltages (if the product was still connected to the mains) but he/she would also have to wire up mains connections. There would also be a possibility that critical insulation would be disturbed. Apart from telling them that they were mad and suggesting that someone could be killed or seriously injured, would there be any black and white legislation that you could use to help bin this idea? I can't find anything specific in EN60065 or the LVD. Thanks for any input Chris Colgan Compliance Engineer TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627 *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159 * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com * http://www.tagmclaren.com ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** The contents of this E-mail are confidential and for the exclusive use of the intended recipient. If you receive this E-mail in error, please delete it from your system immediately and notify us either by E-mail, telephone or fax. You should not copy, forward or otherwise disclose the content of the E-mail. TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, 11 Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU Telephone : 01480 415600 (+44 1480 415600) Facsimile : 01480 52159 (+44 1480 52159) ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the
Re: product modifications by the end user
Chris, Every set of existing rules has an intent, to be achieved by following the letter of the rules. Personally, I always consider meeting the intent far superior to meeting the letter of rules. Example, the letter of the law says we must stop at stop signs before proceeding. The intent is to avoid accidents. We all know that sometimes we must exceed the rules, i.e. defensive driving, because the situation demands it. We also know that if the stop sign is in the middle of a desert, and we can see 5 miles in all directions, one would be meeting the intent of the law if no other cars could be seen, an we did not stop at the sign. The intent of IEC 60950 and like standards is to avoid personal injury and property damage. End users are generally considered operators under the standard. As such, they are to be reasonably prevented from access to hazards in the equipment. This does not mean that the equipment must be in a welded steel box, but that tools are required to enter hazardous areas, and the operator manual does not direct the operator to access such areas. The General Principles of 60950 (page 19) clearly states under Electric Shock : Prevent operator access to parts at hazardous voltage by fixed or locked covers, interlocks, etc. Page 17 indicates that operators are assumed to be oblivious to electrical hazards. When all else fails in such situations as yours, I get something in writing indicating that my team has explained the hazards and risks, and the the Product Manager (or other responsible party) understands and accepts these risks. This usually closes the issue. George Colgan, Chris chris.colgan%tagmclaren@interlock.lexmark.com on 03/19/2002 07:36:09 AM Please respond to Colgan, Chris chris.colgan%tagmclaren@interlock.lexmark.com To: 'Emc-Pstc' (E-mail) emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: product modifications by the end user Hello good people Just say someone in your marketing department came up with the bright idea of selling upgrade kits to an unqualified, untrained end user that involved removing the top cover of a product. In the process not only would the victim be exposed to hazardous voltages (if the product was still connected to the mains) but he/she would also have to wire up mains connections. There would also be a possibility that critical insulation would be disturbed. Apart from telling them that they were mad and suggesting that someone could be killed or seriously injured, would there be any black and white legislation that you could use to help bin this idea? I can't find anything specific in EN60065 or the LVD. Thanks for any input Chris Colgan Compliance Engineer TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627 *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159 * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com * http://www.tagmclaren.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Conductive Coatings/Conductive Plastic
Seeking comment on Conductive Coatings vs. Conductive Plastic Having dealt with metal (primarily steel) enclosures, my knowledge of conductive coatings/conductive plastics is strictly based on what I have been able to gleen from simple research and some conversation. It is my understanding the conductive plastic (metal fibers mixed with the plastic) is less effective at high frequencies ( 200MHz) than plastic with a conductive coating (i.e. electroless plating). Further, from a processing perspective (notwithstanding the shielding effectiveness), if good contact between mating pieces is required, conductive plastic is not a top ranked choice - the amount of fiber that is actually exposed to make contact is difficult to control and filing during product assembly may be required to expose sufficient fiber. And in both cases - SE and physical contact - the preparation (mixing) of the plastic/metal fiber needs to be tightly controlled (and is more difficult to control), with potential for greater variances from to batch to batch than there is for plated plastic. Comments please. GE Interlogix John A. Juhasz Product Qualification Compliance Engr. Fiber Options Div. Bohemia, NY 11716 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Temporarily disabling a fire fighting system
Arno, Our Installation Instructions for Fire/Burglary Alarm Control Panels specify permanent wiring to the mains for security reasons. However, a double-pole circuit breaker on the branch circuit supplying the control panel is recommended to satisfy the LVD. In the US-Canada we have optional radio- and cellular links so the panel with aux. battery reports faults even if mains and telephone are severed by intruders. To temporarily disable the system it is best to enter the proper commands on a keypad console. David -Original Message- From: Arno van Kesteren [mailto:avkes...@eso.org] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 4:44 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Cc: Arno van Kesteren Subject: Temporarily disabling a fire fighting system Dear All, Although maybe a bit out of the scope of this group I still hope that this issue may be dealt with. I would like to know whether the standards allow the installation of a switch in a fire detection fighting system to be able to temporarily disable its operation. If not, what would be the procedure to build in such functionality ? Arno van Kesteren ESO Munich, Germany e-mail: avkes...@eso.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: anybody have a better link than this to the fcc rules - only shows the odd sections of part 15
Maybe it's for future harmonization with IEC-CEI specs: they can put French on even-numbered pages. Dave -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 5:38 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: anybody have a better link than this to the fcc rules - only shows the odd sections of part 15 I read in !emc-pstc that Gary McInturff Gary.McInturff@worldwidepackets .com wrote (in 917063bab0ddb043af5faa73c7a835d40ac...@windlord.wwp.com ) about 'anybody have a better link than this to the fcc rules - only shows the odd sections of part 15', on Mon, 18 Mar 2002: 2. Did you remember to look at both sides of the paper? Yes, you need a display with an anode-ray tube (positrons) to see the even pages (in white letters on a black background, of course). And in mirror-writing, unless you reverse the horizontal scan. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Australian compliance to ARE: creepage v breakdown voltage
Yes, NATA has informed us that the RTA list is being updated soon. Curtis-Straus (USA) is also accredited to perform testing to AS/ACIF S043. Jon Curtis Kevin Richardson wrote: Kristiaan, Equipment which falls under TLN Category A50 is required to comply with ACA TS001:1997 (Compliance Level 3) and AS/ACIF S043 - Parts 1, 2 3 as appropriate (Compliance Level 3 from 1 Jan 02). You said deemed to comply but I presume you mean need to comply so this is correct. Compliance Level 3 does indeed require test reports be from an Recognised Testing Authority (RTA). Compliance Level 3 requirements are spelt out in the TLN Section 4.6(1) and 4.6(2). Yes there are other options to compliance with Compliance Level 3 instead of a test report from an RTA as listed in 4.6(2). NOTE: 4.6.(2)(c) I do not think could be applied as there is no reason a Category A50 device could not be tested in a lab. In addition, 4.6(2)(d), 4.6(2)(e), 4.6.(2)(f) and 4.6(2)(g) do not apply to Category A50 equipment. The only compliance options therefore for a Category A50 device would be: 1. a test report from an RTA; or 2. a written statement from a certification body. The NATA RTA listing is not up-to-date even though the last revision was dated 7 Mar 02. Apart from BABT TUV Product Services lab in Santa Clara, USA, there are at least 2 other labs that I am aware of accredited to S043: a) Austest (Sydney, Australia); and b) Comtest (Melb, Australia) Details for these labs can be found in the RTA listing on the NATA web site you referenced. Best regards, Kevin Richardson Stanimore Pty Limited Compliance Advice Solutions for Technology (including Australian Agent Services) (Legislation/Regulations/Standards) Ph: 02-4329-4070 (Int'l: +61-2-4329-4070) Fax: 02-4328-5639 (Int'l: +61-2-4328-5639) Mobile: 04-1224-1620 (Int'l: +61-4-1224-1620) Email:k...@compuserve.com (kevin.richard...@ieee.org - alternate email) The material transmitted in this message or contained in attachments to this message may contain confidential and/or privileged material and is intended only for the addressee. Any use of or reliance upon this material by persons or entities other than the addressee is prohibited. If you receive this in error, please notify the sender and destroy any copies of the material immediately. -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of kristiaan.carpent...@alcatel.be Sent: Saturday, 16 March 2002 3:12 AM To: Emc-Pstc Post Subject: Australian compliance to ARE: creepage v breakdown voltage Hello, According to the latest version of the Telecommunication Labelling Notice 2001, products in the Category A50 are deemed to comply with ACA TS-001-1997 and AS/ACIF S043-2001. No problem for TS-001, but S043 needs Compliance level 3 only since January 1rst 2002. The general approach is that testing for S043 must be done by a Recognised Testing Authority. After verifying the latest list of RTA´s http://www.nata.asn.au/downloads/rtalist.pdf of March 7th, only 1 lab seems to be listed as RTA and it is not even located in Australia, but in the US. From my reading of the Labelling Notice, Schedule 3 seems to give however other possibilities to comply, like a Certification or Competent body. Any-one can shed some light on this issue? Regards, Kris Carpentier -- Jon D. Curtis, P.E. Director of Engineering Curtis-Straus LLC NRTL TCB One Stop Laboratory for NEBS, EMC, Product Safety, and Telecom Testing. 527 Great Road Littleton, MA 01460 USA Voice 978-486-8880 Fax 978-486-8828 email: jcur...@curtis-straus.com WWW.CURTIS-STRAUS.COM
Re: product modifications by the end user
Chris, I'm not sure about EN60065, but in EN60950 the user is always considered to be unqualified personnel and therefore does not know what they are exposing themselves to. If you invite a user to remove a cover from a unit (even if you have told them to disconnect the mains) the whole of the unit becomes user accessible by definition of the standard and must be safe even when powered. The user should not be exposed to any hazardous energy / voltages i.e. all circuits should be SELV. Maybe you should ask the bright marketing person to have a go. If he survives then it is OK. Cheers, Chris. Colgan, Chris chris.col...@tagmclaren.com on 19/03/2002 12:36:09 Please respond to Colgan, Chris chris.col...@tagmclaren.com Sent by: Colgan, Chris chris.col...@tagmclaren.com To: 'Emc-Pstc' cc:(Chris Allen/GB/3Com) Subject: product modifications by the end user Hello good people Just say someone in your marketing department came up with the bright idea of selling upgrade kits to an unqualified, untrained end user that involved removing the top cover of a product. In the process not only would the victim be exposed to hazardous voltages (if the product was still connected to the mains) but he/she would also have to wire up mains connections. There would also be a possibility that critical insulation would be disturbed. Apart from telling them that they were mad and suggesting that someone could be killed or seriously injured, would there be any black and white legislation that you could use to help bin this idea? I can't find anything specific in EN60065 or the LVD. Thanks for any input Chris Colgan Compliance Engineer TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627 *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159 * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com * http://www.tagmclaren.com ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** The contents of this E-mail are confidential and for the exclusive use of the intended recipient. If you receive this E-mail in error, please delete it from your system immediately and notify us either by E-mail, telephone or fax. You should not copy, forward or otherwise disclose the content of the E-mail. TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, 11 Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU Telephone : 01480 415600 (+44 1480 415600) Facsimile : 01480 52159 (+44 1480 52159) ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
product modifications by the end user
Hello good people Just say someone in your marketing department came up with the bright idea of selling upgrade kits to an unqualified, untrained end user that involved removing the top cover of a product. In the process not only would the victim be exposed to hazardous voltages (if the product was still connected to the mains) but he/she would also have to wire up mains connections. There would also be a possibility that critical insulation would be disturbed. Apart from telling them that they were mad and suggesting that someone could be killed or seriously injured, would there be any black and white legislation that you could use to help bin this idea? I can't find anything specific in EN60065 or the LVD. Thanks for any input Chris Colgan Compliance Engineer TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627 *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159 * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com * http://www.tagmclaren.com ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** The contents of this E-mail are confidential and for the exclusive use of the intended recipient. If you receive this E-mail in error, please delete it from your system immediately and notify us either by E-mail, telephone or fax. You should not copy, forward or otherwise disclose the content of the E-mail. TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, 11 Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU Telephone : 01480 415600 (+44 1480 415600) Facsimile : 01480 52159 (+44 1480 52159) ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
EMC and Functional Safety guide
Just a short note to say a big 'Thank You' to the people who have read and commented on the IEE's Guide on EMC and Functional Safety (www.iee.org.uk/Policy/Areas/Electro) since my request for input from emc-pstc members in January 2002. Everyone who has commented to me has been generally in favor of the guide, and there have been many useful suggestions made as to how we might improve it in its next revision. There is no cut-off date for comments (it may be a year or two before the next revision is forthcoming). Any more feedback would be most welcome. Thank you all once again! Keith Armstrong www.cherryclough.com
SV: Temporarily disabling a fire fighting system
Fire detection systems are coved under the CEN series EN54 and the sub parts will be published under the CP-Directive. The control and indicating equipment (fire alarm panel) is covered by EN54-2. As far as I remember you are allowed to disable parts of the system, but you have to read EN54-2 Chapter 9 very carefully before you make your own decision. EN54-2 is a controversial standard and I know that test labs interpret it quite different. Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo/ Norway -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]På vegne av John Woodgate Sendt: 19. mars 2002 08:12 Til: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Emne: Re: Temporarily disabling a fire fighting system I read in !emc-pstc that Arno van Kesteren avkes...@eso.org wrote (in 000b01c1cec5$fe2c9ba0$55b9a...@hq.eso.org) about 'Temporarily disabling a fire fighting system', on Mon, 18 Mar 2002: I would like to know whether the standards allow the installation of a switch in a fire detection fighting system to be able to temporarily disable its operation. If not, what would be the procedure to build in such functionality ? If this is covered by EN54, parts of which are not yet published, you need to look at that. Otherwise, you have to look at the applicable National Standards. You are probably not allowed to turn the system off unless the building is unoccupied except by fire-fighters and a minimum maintenance crew. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Earthing of conductive floor tiles
I read in !emc-pstc that Arno van Kesteren avkes...@eso.org wrote (in 001801c1cec6$a16ff500$55b9a...@hq.eso.org) about 'Earthing of conductive floor tiles', on Mon, 18 Mar 2002: Do conductive tiles in floors for ESD prevention have to be connected together (e.g. through a low impedance earth bond) ? The manufacturer will give you full installation instructions. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Temporarily disabling a fire fighting system
I read in !emc-pstc that Arno van Kesteren avkes...@eso.org wrote (in 000b01c1cec5$fe2c9ba0$55b9a...@hq.eso.org) about 'Temporarily disabling a fire fighting system', on Mon, 18 Mar 2002: I would like to know whether the standards allow the installation of a switch in a fire detection fighting system to be able to temporarily disable its operation. If not, what would be the procedure to build in such functionality ? If this is covered by EN54, parts of which are not yet published, you need to look at that. Otherwise, you have to look at the applicable National Standards. You are probably not allowed to turn the system off unless the building is unoccupied except by fire-fighters and a minimum maintenance crew. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Temporarily disabling a fire fighting system
Dear All, Although maybe a bit out of the scope of this group I still hope that this issue may be dealt with. I would like to know whether the standards allow the installation of a switch in a fire detection fighting system to be able to temporarily disable its operation. If not, what would be the procedure to build in such functionality ? Arno van Kesteren ESO Munich, Germany e-mail: avkes...@eso.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
