RE: NEBs Requirements for Cable Modems

[Gary McInturff]

I asked this once of one the Verizon guys who I trust and the answer was 
yes, and we were discussing cable modems at the time. I'm still only 80% 
certain he meant what he said. This was just a casual conversation.
If one end of the cable modem goes into a CO or a co-locator's space I 
think you're out of luck and NEBS applies, either level 1 or 3 as defined by 
the various RBOC's, for homes - which I think have to be CPE locations then its 
the 80% answer I got.
Contact me privately and I will give you a name of someone who I think we 
have a good answer for you. He's well known buy most folks but out of respect 
to his time I don't want to blast it for everyone's contact fill addition.
Gary

[Gary McInturff]  -Original Message-
From: J Alexander [mailto:alexander...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 9:15 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: NEBs Requirements for Cable Modems



Hi Group,

Our company wants to sell our Cable Modem to some of the major US carriers. Is 
anyone familiar with compliance requirements needed to meet their requirements? 
I'm aware they all have specific requirements so I would use Verizon and AT&T 
as a general reference.  These modems are located in a residential environment 
so I'm curious if they would have to meet any of the NEBS or GR ??? 
requirements? Any thing else to be aware of in the US other than FCC and UL 
Safety as applicable?

All input is appreciated,

Alex




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Re: common mode immunity coupling units

[Ken Javor]

Thanks to all who responded on this subject, but especially to Ing. Gremmen.
The point I missed was that the CDNs are more than simply injection and
isolation networks.  They also function as THE ONLY transmission line
termination resistances.

--
>From: "Gert Gremmen" 
>To: "Ken Javor" , "Jim Conrad" ,
"john woodgate" , 
>Subject: RE: common mode immunity coupling units
>Date: Fri, Nov 8, 2002, 5:35 AM
>

> Hi Jim,
>
>
> If you take a look at the setup, you would
> see that the EUT is not grounded, and any current flowing through the
> EUT will end (by means of other cables) on another CDN  having a fixed
> impedance of 150 ohm to the ground plane. The cables running from
> CDN-EUT-CDN
> are at 3 cm height, and will approximate a 150 ohm transmission line giving
> no rise to standing waves. The termination is not the EUT, but the other
> CDN.
>
> If the CDN is that large that any capacitive current to ground flows, then
> that
> would influence the result, and that is a part of the reasons that the CDN
> are limited to 80 MHz for reliable test set ups.
>
> If cables are unshielded the EUT cable-to-cable impedance would be in series
> with the transmission line affecting the results.
> If the EUT has one cable only this is the same.
>
> But non of these are contradictory with what happens real life immunity
> problem situations.
>
> The only thing worth to discuss is the value of the CM impedance
> of 150 ohm, and this value has been selected
> as an (arbitrary)  average of many measured CM
> cabling impedances as encountered in real life.
>
> One can discuss eternally about the value, but it is a
> compromise between 50 Ohm (too low) and infinite, which is too high.
> It is a value that can be realized over the defined frequency range
> and is feasible in terms of set up ( 3cm above ground).
>
> The ground plane is required for the return current and is metallic
> for reproducibility reasons.
>
> A 80 cm set-up is equally non representative for real life situations
> with the addition that the CM cable impedance is even higher
> and more difficult to inject current on, and that parasitic
> elements have a bigger impact on the results.
> Due to the increased distance , the environment of the setup must
> be much more tightly controlled and we would end up testing conducted
> immunity
> in a anechoic room or free space. Remember the conducted emissions (LISN)
> test
> set up which give most rise to discussion due to it's 40/80 cm set up.
> This is the also a reason  (among others) why the radiated immunity 80 cm
> set up
> lacks reproducibility.
>
> EN 61000-4-6 limits cabling length to 30 cm which is large for the highest
> frequencies in the test range (80-230 Mhz). Shortening will
> get better results.
> The new version of EN 61000-4-6 will also prescribe 30 cm leads for
> large EUTs by extending the ground plane vertically until 30 mm requirement
> can be met. It also contributes to better reproducibility
> by prescribing the application of maximum 2 CDN's at a (test) time,
> reducing the load of multiple CDN in parallel (on mult. cables) and
> bringing the load back to the desired 150 ohms.
>
> Basically, within it's limitations, this standard is easy to
> use, with limited investments and creates good reproducibility
> on small and medium sized EUT as long as CDN's are
> applied. Remember that this test allows for fast testing on PCB-level
> thus immunize equipment on PCB scale , preventing lots of
> problems on apparatus level.
>
> Work is going on to allow for CDN's to use in conducted emission
> tests instead of a LISN as immunity and emission are reciproke,
> and so should the test set up.
> The symmetry/asymmetry issue with LISN's needs to be resolved,
> but as emssion problems are mainly asymmetric (Common Mode) nowadays
> ( using a capacitor any symmetric noise can be suppressed)
>
> I have 3 years of experience with ten's of EUTs using EN 61000-4-6
> and have found the results satisfactory.
>
> Regards,
>
> Gert Gremmen
> Manager
>
>
> Ce-test, Qualified Testing
> ce marking and more ..
> EMCD  LVD  R&TTED  MDD  MD
> www.cetest.nl
> Electrical / Electronic Equipment
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ken Javor
> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 10:12 PM
> To: Jim Conrad; john woodgate; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: Re: common mode immunity coupling units
>
>
>
> I must be missing something.  The controlled impedance concept would work
> for me if the cable-under-test (CUT) were a single-wire-above-ground (swag)
> transmission line terminated at either end in its characteristic impedance.
> That is never the case.  If a cable is shielded, then it is terminated at
> the equipment-under-test (EUT) in a  low impedance and if it is not shielded
> its termination impedance reflects whatever circuit it is connected to, and
> whether that circuit is referenced to ground.  Actually that s

RE: CISPR 12 Testing

[Lothar Schmidt]

No this reflecting surfaces mentioned in the standard are objects outside
the specified ellipse
 

Best Regards 

Lothar Schmidt 

Technical Manager EMC/Radio 
BQB 
CETECOM Inc. 
411 Dixon Landing Road 
Milpitas, CA 95035 
* +1 408 586 6214 
* +1 408 586 6299 

-Original Message-
From: steve.ost...@flextronics.com [mailto:steve.ost...@flextronics.com]
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 8:42 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: CISPR 12 Testing


According to CISPR 12, Section 5.2.1, the OATS requirement calls out "a
clear area free from electromagnetic reflecting surfaces".  Does this imply
that the OATS facility should not have a ground plane or were they referring
to any other electromagnetic reflecting surfaces.  I would appreciate all
input on this topic.
 
Best Regards,
Steve O'Steen
919-554-0901x240
 

ISM Standards

[Robert . Seay]

Robert

Re: the following definitions:

EN 55011
2.1 ISM equipment; ISM appliance
Equipment or appliances designed to generate and/or use locally
radio-frequency energy for industrial, scientific, medical, domestic or
similar purposes.  Excluding applications in the field of telecommunications
and information technology and other applications; covered by other CISPR
publications.

FCC Part 18.107 (c)
Industrial, scientific and medical (ISM) equipment.
Equipment or appliance designed to generate and use locally RF energy for
industrial, scientific, medical, domestic or similar purposes., excluding
applications in the field of telecommunications.  Typical ISM applications
are the production of physical, biological, or chemical effects such as
heating, ionization of gases, mechanical vibrations, hair removal and
acceleration of charged particles.

Some people have interpreted ISM devices as anything which generates RF
energy and is used in a medical setting.  For example: 1) a computer that
analyzes blood samples (because it generates and uses RF energy internally -
a clock oscillator) and 1) a monitor that uses a low power transmitter to
relay patient temperature to a remote monitor.

The second example is identical in function to a sensor on my back porch
that uses RF to relay the temperature to a monitor on my desk.  Would this
device be reclassified from FCC Part 15 subpart B to FCC part 18 if I
strapped the sensor to my wrist?

In my opinion, ISM designation should be reserved for devices where the RF
is an essential function of the device such as heating, etc. Secondary uses
such as an RF link or clock oscillators would be excluded by the phrases
"excluding applications in the field of telecommunications" and "covered by
other CISPR publications".  In addition, the RF link is not an essential
function as it could be accomplished by infrared, acoustic, or even a wire
link.  The essential function is measurement.  On the other hand, if the
measurement were made by measuring the RF characteristics of some material,
then the RF would be an essential function of the device.

Am I splitting too fine a hair?

Robert Seay


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TCAM 11 Meeting Minutes

[FdeVall]

Does anyone have the minutes or URL for the 11th meeting that occurred on
03-04 September 2002?

Thanks,

Frank de Vall
Assa Abloy ITG
HID Corporation
Denver, CO  USA
fdev...@assaabloyitg.com



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Re: common mode immunity coupling units

[neven11]

Little belated response, but I thought it may be worth sending it anyway.

Laboratory Report: "Common-mode impedance measurements on cables in the 
frequency range 10-1000 MHz", report no. EIE 92004, by Mart Coenen from Philips 
in Eindhoven, the Netherlands, is probably the best reference on this subject.

If you connect a piece of long wire to a network analyzer, you can measure any 
impedance, from sub-Ohm to above kOhm. However, if you create the condition of 
cable-resonance, which is what the emission-testing is about when you maximize 
emission, then it can be shown that statistically the impedance is close to 150 
Ohm. The report describes a test results where a cable was set on a long bench 
over a plane, with an absorption clamp on it. One end of the cable was 
connected to a network analyzer (NWA). The clamp output was connected to the 
other NWA port and movedalong the cable to achieve max S21 (= max. emission 
condition). Then the input impedance of the cable was measured. All that was 
performed in many different configurations, and the measured impedances 
analyzed. The results support 150 Ohm as a reasonable "expected" value for the 
common-mode impedance of the cables.

BTW, if you look at the antenna theory, and realize that a cable in resonance 
is just a simple linear antenna such as monopole, half-wavelength or full-
wavelength dipole, then you'll see that its expected impedance at resonance is 
between about 30 Ohm and 300 Ohm, which again supports the 150 Ohm selection.

Neven


> 
> Please forgive my ignorance but can anyone tell me why above are designed to
> give load and source impedances of 150 ohms?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Chris Colgan
> Compliance Engineer
> TAG McLaren Audio Ltd
> The Summit, Latham Road
> Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU
> *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627
> *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159
> * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com
> * http://www.tagmclaren.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **  
>Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com
> **
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Re: CISPR 12 Testing

[Ken Javor]

That means reflecting surfaces above ground, not the ground plane itself. 
The old FCC MP-4 showed a clear area being an ellipse whose major axis was
twice the EUT-antenna separation, and whose minor axis was the EUT-antenna
separation, with the minor axis perpendicular to the vector separating the
antenna and EUT.  This ellipse had to be clear of all obstructions, trees,
shrubs, etc.

--
From: steve.ost...@flextronics.com
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: CISPR 12 Testing
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Fri, Nov 8, 2002, 10:41 AM


According to CISPR 12, Section 5.2.1, the OATS requirement calls out "a
clear area free from electromagnetic reflecting surfaces".  Does this imply
that the OATS facility should not have a ground plane or were they referring
to any other electromagnetic reflecting surfaces.  I would appreciate all
input on this topic.

Best Regards,
Steve O'Steen
919-554-0901x240

NEBs Requirements for Cable Modems

[J Alexander]

Hi Group,

Our company wants to sell our Cable Modem to some of the major US carriers. Is 
anyone familiar with compliance requirements needed to meet their requirements? 
I'm aware they all have specific requirements so I would use Verizon and AT&T 
as a general reference.  These modems are located in a residential environment 
so I'm curious if they would have to meet any of the NEBS or GR ??? 
requirements? Any thing else to be aware of in the US other than FCC and UL 
Safety as applicable?

All input is appreciated,

Alex



-
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RE: Looking for list of family standards for EU - Found it

[Grasso, Charles]

Hi Group 
I found the document at Conformity.com's website.
The link is..

http://www.conformity.com/emcdirectivestandardslist.pdf

Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Senior Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications Corp.
Tel:  303-706-5467
Fax: 303-799-6222
Cell: 303-204-2974
Email: charles.gra...@echostar.com;  
Email Alternate: chasgra...@ieee.org
 


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:11 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Looking for list of family standards for EU



I read in !emc-pstc that Grasso, Charles  wrote
(in <70B321FEC75C704A846DEE3D856ACB11084184D5@riv-
exch2.echostar.com>) about 'Looking for list of family standards for EU' on
Thu, 7 Nov 2002:
>I am looking for a document that lists all the famliy standards
>as defined in the EU.
>Does anyone have a link to same??

It's not clear what you want. All the (electrical) ENs are listed in the
CENELEC publications catalogue. All the EMC 'notified' standards are listed
on the EC web site whose URL has been given here several times. The
'notified' safety standards are also listed there.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk

Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

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CISPR 12 Testing

[Steve . Osteen]

According to CISPR 12, Section 5.2.1, the OATS requirement calls out "a
clear area free from electromagnetic reflecting surfaces".  Does this imply
that the OATS facility should not have a ground plane or were they referring
to any other electromagnetic reflecting surfaces.  I would appreciate all
input on this topic.
 
Best Regards,
Steve O'Steen
919-554-0901x240
 

RE: Looking for list of family standards for EU

[Grasso, Charles]

Hi John & Group..

Somewhere ( I have seen it!) there is a document that 
lists the product family standards for EMC. That document
also details the types of products can be grouped under
those standards. So for example, medical products have one 
set of standards, consumer equipment another, ITE a third.

Does that help??

Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Senior Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications Corp.
Tel:  303-706-5467
Fax: 303-799-6222
Cell: 303-204-2974
Email: charles.gra...@echostar.com;  
Email Alternate: chasgra...@ieee.org
 


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:11 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Looking for list of family standards for EU



I read in !emc-pstc that Grasso, Charles  wrote
(in <70B321FEC75C704A846DEE3D856ACB11084184D5@riv-
exch2.echostar.com>) about 'Looking for list of family standards for EU' on
Thu, 7 Nov 2002:
>I am looking for a document that lists all the famliy standards
>as defined in the EU.
>Does anyone have a link to same??

It's not clear what you want. All the (electrical) ENs are listed in the
CENELEC publications catalogue. All the EMC 'notified' standards are listed
on the EC web site whose URL has been given here several times. The
'notified' safety standards are also listed there.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk

Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

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EU DoC

[SOUNDSURFR]

>In response to John's comment/question, the answer could well be that the
>Commission and it's national enforcing authorities do not want to be faced
>with the possibility of having chase 2(or even 3 or more under a multiple
>branding situation) companies over a non-compliance/safety situation. Thus -
>as far as Directives compliance is concerned - they want only 1 company to
>take the responsibility for each product.

But there's no way for them to ensure that.  From what I can tell, there's 
nothing to stop several different different importers from importing the same 
product and independently issuing their own declarations for it.  If the 
product is found to be defective, all the importers of the product will 
theoretically be responsible - although I have no idea how the authorities 
might trace them. 

Greg Galluccio
www.productapprovals.com

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Re: EU DoC - ATEX Examples

[SOUNDSURFR]

In a message dated 11/8/02 7:56:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
chris_al...@eur.3com.com writes:

> 
> Company B should issue the DoC. But to show "due diligence" they should 
> obtain a
> DoC (and copies of test reports) from Company A. 

That makes two DoC's for one product.  If company A issues a legally 
compliant DoC, why would company B issue one?  



Greg Galluccio
www.productapprovals.com

RE: EU DoC - ATEX Examples

[Peter Merguerian]

Dear All,

We should learn from the Australians. When there are multiple distributors
in Europe and in order not to have the file duplicated, you the
manufacturer, can use an Agent that can hold the file and the Declarations.
The agent number should then appear by the CE Mark.

I think this would solve many sleepless nights and will create jobs for the
unemployed as Agents.


All the Best,


This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If
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received this e-mail message in error, please return by forwarding the
message and its attachments to the sender.



PETER S. MERGUERIAN
Technical Director
I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd.
26 Hacharoshet St., POB 211
Or Yehuda 60251, Israel
Tel: + 972-(0)3-5339022  Fax: + 972-(0)3-5339019
Mobile: + 972-(0)54-838175
http://www.itl.co.il
http://www.i-spec.com





-Original Message-
From: Chris Allen [mailto:chris_al...@eur.3com.com]
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 2:54 PM
To: John Woodgate
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EU DoC - ATEX Examples





I thought  it was the person who placed the product on the market that was
responsible for issuing the DoC?

In this case there are 2 markets that the product is being placed on to. The
commercial market and the end user market.

Company B should issue the DoC. But to show "due diligence" they should
obtain a
DoC (and copies of test reports) from Company A. That way if it ever goes to
court, Company B can show that they showed due diligence in maintaining
appropriate documentation and that Company A is responsible for the failure
to
comply.

Chris.





John Woodgate  on 08/11/2002 09:39:21

Please respond to John Woodgate 

Sent by:  John Woodgate 


To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
cc:(Chris Allen/GB/3Com)
Subject:  Re: EU DoC - ATEX Examples





I read in !emc-pstc that John Allen  wrote (in
) about 'EU DoC - ATEX
Examples' on Fri, 8 Nov 2002:
>In response to John's comment/question, the answer could well be that the
>Commission and it's national enforcing authorities do not want to be faced
>with the possibility of having chase 2(or even 3 or more under a multiple
>branding situation) companies over a non-compliance/safety situation. Thus
-
>as far as Directives compliance is concerned - they want only 1 company to
>take the responsibility for each product.

Maybe, but legally it won't wash. If Company B (marketer) were pursued
for a violation, its lawyers would immediately involve Company A
(manufacturer), and if they had previously earned their keep, that would
be based on the contract between A and B requiring A to provide a DOC in
every way and in every effect the same as if it were a DOC as required
by the relevant Directives.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

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Northeast Product Safety Society Vendors Night on Thursday, November 21st

[Matt Campanella]

All,

The Northeast Product Safety Society invites you to the 8th annual
Vendor’s Night to be held at the Marlboro Holiday Inn on Thursday
evening, November 21st from 5:00 to 9:30 PM.  Complementary technical
seminars from 1:00 to 4:00 PM titled “Design for Compliance” and
“International Approvals in Particular Japan and Russia” will be offered
by TUV Rheinland and M.A. Lamothe & Associates.

Vendor's Night is opportunity to get answers to all your product
safety/EMC questions in one evening from up to 50 certification
agencies, qualified testing laboratories, independent consultants and
suppliers of services, test equipment and components.

The Vendor’s Night registration and cash bar opens at 5:00 PM and the
Exhibition with appetizers opens at 5:30 PM.  The buffet dinner from
6:30 to 8:00 is free to paid NPSS members and available to non-members
for $15.00.  The Exhibition closes at 9:30 but will remain open during
the buffet.  If you join NPSS and pay your annual $28 dues during
registration on the 21st, the buffet will be included with your
membership, which will be valid for 2003.

An attendee Vendor’s Night registration form is available on the NPSS
web site at http://www.nepss.org/vendors2001/registration.htm.  An NPSS
membership application form with brief NPSS brochure is also available
on the NPSS site at http://www.nepss.org/membership/npssbroc.txt.

There are still a few tables available for any vendor that would like to
participate in the 8th Annual Vendor’s Night.  A Vendor exhibit space
application form is available on the NPSS web site at
http://www.nepss.org/vendors2001/vendorform.htm.  Please feel free to
contact myself or any other NPSS AdCom officer for more information
about Vendor’s Night.

The complementary seminars are aimed at designers, product safety and
regulatory compliance specialists involved in the development and
manufacture of electrical products.  Attendance is welcome at either or
both sessions.  The “International Approvals in particular Japan and
Russia” session will start at 1:00 PM and covers compliance requirements
and provides an overview of the approvals needed to sell in various
countries.  The “Design for Compliance” session will start at 3:00 PM
and covers practical application of electrical product safety standards
for regulatory compliance as well as design for compliance requirements
for construction, components, layout, etc.  Further information
regarding these sessions is available on the Lamothe Associates web site
at http://www.lamothe-approvals.com/seminars.htm.

Further information about the Northeast Product Safety Society and how
to become a member is available at http://www.nepss.org.  You can also
contact one of the NPSS officers via links at
http://www.nepss.org/secretary/officerskf.html.

The 8th Annual Vendor’s Night location is:

Marlborough Holiday Inn
265 Lakeside Ave.
Marlborough, MA
(508) 480-0015

>From Route 495 take exit 24 to Route 20 East in Marlboro
If Southbound on Route 495, the exit is the second of the two Route 20
exits.
If Northbound on Route 495, the exit is the first of the two Route 20
exits.
The entrance to the Holiday Inn is the first left just beyond the Route
495 ramps.

Matt Campanella
   NPSS Secretary

Compliance Engineer
Motorola, Inc.
Broadband Communications Sector
3 Highwood Drive East
Tewksbury, MA 01876

(978) 858-2303   Direct
(978) 858-2300   Main
(978) 858-2399   Fax

matthew.campane...@motorola.com  email





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RE: Conducted Line Emissions

[djumbdenstock]

Hello Dan,

You have 2 interesting options open to you, but you do not have enough
information for either.  

The FCC revised their Part 15 rules for conducted emissions this September
essentially adopting CISPR 22, measuring in both QP and Ave.  The product
needs to pass both limits to establish compliance.  However, the new rules
are not mandatory until July 2004 for new designs (production and
importation must include the new rules by July 2005).  

Under the old rules, the product is measured with a QP detector and compared
to the limits.  If an over-limit condition is observed, one then applies the
broadband test.  The broadband test compares the signal measured with an
Average detector to the signal measured with the QP detector.  If the Ave
level is more than 6 dB below the QP level, the signal is considered
broadband and a 13 dB relaxation is allowed.  Also note that under the old
rules, the spectrum of concern is 450 kHz to 30 MHz compared to 150 kHz to
30 MHz for the new rules.  

For the data that you presented, no one can tell if the product passes or
fails because there is no QP data.  Both the new and the old standard
require a QP measurement.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Don Umbdenstock
Tyco Safety Products -- Sensormatic


> --
> From: Dan Pierce[SMTP:dpie...@openglobe.net]
> Reply To: Dan Pierce
> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 4:04 PM
> To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject:  Conducted Line Emissions
> 
> <><>
> Greetings:
> 
> I am looking for proof that I can use the averaged value for emissions
> rather than the peak value.  Attached is a chart that I was given by an
> Asia
> test site that told me I failed.  According to my past experience, I
> believe
> that the average power is what I should be concerned about.  Similar to
> radiated emissions right?
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Daniel J. Pierce
> Sr. Design Engineer
> OpenGlobe, Inc.
> > (An Escient Technologies Affiliate)
> 6325 Digital Way
> Indianapolis, IN  46278
> 
> mailto:dpie...@openglobe.net
>  
> P:  (317) 616.6587
> F:  (317) 616.6587
> 
> 
> 

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RE: EU DoC

[Alexandru Guidea]

Chris Allen wrote: "Company B should raise a DoC  to sell the item under
it's own brand name. However, company B should obtain a DoC issued by
company A for it's own good."

My mistake. I overlooked the statement of the original message, which says
both companies are located in EU. Chris is right.

However, my message is true when at least company B is located elsewhere in
the world.

Alexandru Guidea.


-Original Message-
From: Chris Allen [mailto:chris_al...@eur.3com.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 2:34 AM
To: richwo...@tycoint.com
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: EU DoC





Company B should raise a DoC  to sell the item under it's own brand name.
However, company B should obtain a DoC issued by company A for it's own
good.

Chris.





richwo...@tycoint.com on 06/11/2002 18:22:08

Please respond to richwo...@tycoint.com

Sent by:  richwo...@tycoint.com


To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
cc:(Chris Allen/GB/3Com)
Subject:  EU DoC







Company A builds a device for company B which sells the device in the EU
under their own brand name. The device is subject to a Declaration of
Conformity, and both companies are located within the EU. Must both
companies issue a Declaration?

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International


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Re: EU DoC - ATEX Examples

[Chris Allen]

I thought  it was the person who placed the product on the market that was
responsible for issuing the DoC?

In this case there are 2 markets that the product is being placed on to. The
commercial market and the end user market.

Company B should issue the DoC. But to show "due diligence" they should obtain a
DoC (and copies of test reports) from Company A. That way if it ever goes to
court, Company B can show that they showed due diligence in maintaining
appropriate documentation and that Company A is responsible for the failure to
comply.

Chris.





John Woodgate  on 08/11/2002 09:39:21

Please respond to John Woodgate 

Sent by:  John Woodgate 


To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
cc:(Chris Allen/GB/3Com)
Subject:  Re: EU DoC - ATEX Examples





I read in !emc-pstc that John Allen  wrote (in
) about 'EU DoC - ATEX
Examples' on Fri, 8 Nov 2002:
>In response to John's comment/question, the answer could well be that the
>Commission and it's national enforcing authorities do not want to be faced
>with the possibility of having chase 2(or even 3 or more under a multiple
>branding situation) companies over a non-compliance/safety situation. Thus -
>as far as Directives compliance is concerned - they want only 1 company to
>take the responsibility for each product.

Maybe, but legally it won't wash. If Company B (marketer) were pursued
for a violation, its lawyers would immediately involve Company A
(manufacturer), and if they had previously earned their keep, that would
be based on the contract between A and B requiring A to provide a DOC in
every way and in every effect the same as if it were a DOC as required
by the relevant Directives.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

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Re: EU DoC - ATEX Examples

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that John Allen  wrote (in
) about 'EU DoC - ATEX
Examples' on Fri, 8 Nov 2002:
>In response to John's comment/question, the answer could well be that the
>Commission and it's national enforcing authorities do not want to be faced
>with the possibility of having chase 2(or even 3 or more under a multiple
>branding situation) companies over a non-compliance/safety situation. Thus -
>as far as Directives compliance is concerned - they want only 1 company to
>take the responsibility for each product.

Maybe, but legally it won't wash. If Company B (marketer) were pursued
for a violation, its lawyers would immediately involve Company A
(manufacturer), and if they had previously earned their keep, that would
be based on the contract between A and B requiring A to provide a DOC in
every way and in every effect the same as if it were a DOC as required
by the relevant Directives.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

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Re: Looking for list of family standards for EU

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that Grasso, Charles 
wrote (in <70B321FEC75C704A846DEE3D856ACB11084184D5@riv-
exch2.echostar.com>) about 'Looking for list of family standards for EU'
on Thu, 7 Nov 2002:
>I am looking for a document that lists all the famliy standards
>as defined in the EU.
>Does anyone have a link to same??

It's not clear what you want. All the (electrical) ENs are listed in the
CENELEC publications catalogue. All the EMC 'notified' standards are
listed on the EC web site whose URL has been given here several times.
The 'notified' safety standards are also listed there.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

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RE: Looking for list of family standards for EU

[Kazimier_Gawrzyjal]

Greetings,

I tried the links below but found some difficulty in opening the pages.  The
below might also be of use.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/newapproach/standardization/harmstds/re
flist.html

Regards,
Kaz Gawrzyjal
Dell
kazimier_gawrzy...@dell.com
-Original Message-
From: Mark Render [mailto:mren...@ktl.com]
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 2:58 AM
To: 'Grasso, Charles'
Cc: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org'
Subject: RE: Looking for list of family standards for EU



Hi

Is this what you are looking for ? Links to pages from the Official Journal
of the EC which specify harmonised standards which provide presumption of
conformity :

 List of harmonised standards under the EMC Directive 89/336/EC :
http://www.europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/newapproach/standardization/harmstd
s/reflist/emc.html

 List of harmonised standards under the RTTE Directive 1999/5/EC :
http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/newapproach/standardization/harmstds/re
flist/radiotte.html

Regards

Mark Render
EMC and Radio Group  Manager
KTL
Saxon Way
Priory Park West
Hessle
East Yorkshire
HU13 9PB

E-mail: mren...@ktl.com

Tel: +44 (0) 1482 801801
Fax: +44 (0) 1482 801806

-Original Message-
From: Grasso, Charles [mailto:charles.gra...@echostar.com]
Sent: 08 November 2002 01:38
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Looking for list of family standards for EU


Hi group..
 
I am looking for a document that lists all the famliy standards
as defined in the EU.
Does anyone have a link to same??

Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Senior Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications Corp.
Tel:  303-706-5467
Fax: 303-799-6222
Cell: 303-204-2974
Email: charles.gra...@echostar.com;  
Email Alternate: chasgra...@ieee.org
 

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Re: EU DoC

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that Nick Williams 
wrote (in ) about 'EU DoC' on Thu,
7 Nov 2002:
>...but for an alternative view, Regulation 40 (2) of the UK's The 
>Electromagnetic Compatibility Regulations 1992 (SI 1992:2372) says:
>
>
>An EC declaration of conformity to which this regulation applies shall-
>
>  (a) be in English;
>
>  (b) give the name and address-
>
>  (i) of the responsible person;
>
>  (ii) where that person is not the manufacturer, of the manufacturer;
>
>which I took to mean that both the manufacturer and their authorised 
>representative should sign where the manufacturer is not resident in 
>the EU.

That text doesn't say that *anyone* must sign!

People based in UK have to comply with the above, but other people need
only comply with the somewhat different approach indicated in the
Guidelines and Directives.

The UK Regulations were written before the Commission was asked about
OEM supply and other less simple cases, and have not been revised.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
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RE: common mode immunity coupling units

[Gordon,Ian]

Ken et al
The information is also available from Schaffner by following the links in
the Colloquium Details sheet attached. 
I'm sure the minutes will be posted on the NPL site afterwards for those of
us outside the UK or that don't like meetings on a Friday!
 http://www.npl.co.uk/electromagnetic/rfmff/tech-transfer/freemet/

Thanks
Ian Gordon
-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: 07 November 2002 21:13
To: Gordon,Ian
Subject: Re: common mode immunity coupling units


That looked like an excellent report, but the link wasn't working.

--
>From: "Gordon,Ian" 
>To: "'Ken Javor'" , John Woodgate
, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>Subject: RE: common mode immunity coupling units
>Date: Thu, Nov 7, 2002, 3:21 AM
>

> All
> The following website gives a "dissection" of uncertainties in immunity
> testing including EN61000-4-6 and there will be a meeting at NPL later
this
> month.
> http://www.elmac.co.uk/
>
>
> Thanks
> Ian Gordon
> -Original Message-
> From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
> Sent: 07 November 2002 03:54
> To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: Re: common mode immunity coupling units
>
>
>
> I have to agree with Mr. Woodgate's comment, as far as numbers go - 150
Ohms
> means the wire is very close to a well-defined ground plane if the number
> represents a transmission line characteristic impedance.  However, the IEC
> 1000-4-6 test set up does not represent the real world, because it
requires
> a well-defined low impedance ground plane underneath the entire test
set-up.
> In my opinion, the set-up ought to look precisely like the IEC 1000-4-3
set
> up (80 cm above ground), since the purpose of 1000-4-6 is to simulate the
> results of radiated field-to-wire coupling at frequencies too low to
> accurately simulate in a practical radiated set-up.
>
> I am curious to hear what Mr. Woodgate and others think about this topic.
>
> --
>>From: John Woodgate 
>>To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>>Subject: Re: common mode immunity coupling units
>>Date: Tue, Nov 5, 2002, 3:08 PM
>>
>
>>
>> I read in !emc-pstc that Ken Javor  wrote
>> (in <0h54004a5a4...@mtaout05.icomcast.net>) about 'common mode immunity
>> coupling units' on Tue, 5 Nov 2002:
>>>Because the Europeans think that is the right impedance to simulate a
>>>generic transmission line/antenna far from ground.
>>
>> Not 'far' from ground, AIUI, but 'not far' from ground.
>> --
>> Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
> http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
>> Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go
> to
>> http://www.isce.org.uk
>> PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!
>>
>> ---
>> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
>> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
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RE: Looking for list of family standards for EU

[Mark Render]

Hi

Is this what you are looking for ? Links to pages from the Official Journal
of the EC which specify harmonised standards which provide presumption of
conformity :

 List of harmonised standards under the EMC Directive 89/336/EC :
http://www.europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/newapproach/standardization/harmstd
s/reflist/emc.html

 List of harmonised standards under the RTTE Directive 1999/5/EC :
http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/newapproach/standardization/harmstds/re
flist/radiotte.html

Regards

Mark Render
EMC and Radio Group  Manager
KTL
Saxon Way
Priory Park West
Hessle
East Yorkshire
HU13 9PB

E-mail: mren...@ktl.com

Tel: +44 (0) 1482 801801
Fax: +44 (0) 1482 801806

-Original Message-
From: Grasso, Charles [mailto:charles.gra...@echostar.com]
Sent: 08 November 2002 01:38
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Looking for list of family standards for EU


Hi group..
 
I am looking for a document that lists all the famliy standards
as defined in the EU.
Does anyone have a link to same??

Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Senior Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications Corp.
Tel:  303-706-5467
Fax: 303-799-6222
Cell: 303-204-2974
Email: charles.gra...@echostar.com;  
Email Alternate: chasgra...@ieee.org
 

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RE: EU DoC

[John Allen]

Nick

I can see your viewpoint, but I don't think I agree with you - I believe
that b(i) and b(ii) are alternatives - not additive.

In Clause 3 "Intepretations" of the UK EMC Regs Regulations (SI 99 No 2372)
it defines the responsible person as follows:
"
"responsible person " in relation to relevant apparatus means-
 (a) the manufacturer thereof;
 (b) the manufacturer's authorised representative; or
 (c) where the manufacturer is not established in the Community and he has
not appointed an authorised representative, the person who supplies the
relevant apparatus;"..

>From the "or" at the end of (b)I take these to mean that (a), (b) and (c)
are alternatives - not an additive list.

See also my separate response today to John Woodgate's point about the
Commission's probably attitude to multiple signatories.

Regards

John Allen
Technical Consultant
Electromagnetics, Safety and Reliability Group
ERA Technology Ltd
Cleeve Rd
Leatherhead
Surrey KT22 7SA
Tel:+44 (0) 1372-367025 (Direct)
+44 (0) 1372-367000 (Switchboard)
Fax:+44 (0) 1372-367102 (Fax)

-Original Message-
From: Nick Williams [mailto:nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk]
Sent: 07 November 2002 21:54
To: John Allen
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: EU DoC


...but for an alternative view, Regulation 40 (2) of the UK's The 
Electromagnetic Compatibility Regulations 1992 (SI 1992:2372) says:


An EC declaration of conformity to which this regulation applies shall-

  (a) be in English;

  (b) give the name and address-

  (i) of the responsible person;

  (ii) where that person is not the manufacturer, of the manufacturer;

which I took to mean that both the manufacturer and their authorised 
representative should sign where the manufacturer is not resident in 
the EU.

Rgds

Nick.



At 16:55 + 7/11/02, John Allen wrote:
>Hi Folks
>
>Whilst investigating something else today, I came upon the Commission
>Guidance Notes for the implementation of the ATEX Directive :
>
>http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/atex/guide/guide_en.pdf
>
>On Page 112 in reply to Question 13 (about something else), Case 1, 2nd
>paragraph, states the following:
>
>"The EC declaration of conformity and the application of the CE marking may
>be effected either by the manufacturer or his authorised representative,
but
>not by both.  ."
>
>Whilst this is ATEX-specific, I think it would appear reasonable to assume
>that the Commission takes a similar line with the other CE Marking
>directives.
>
>The document does also contain more background and explanatory information
>on this point and the Directive in general.
>
>Regards
>
>John Allen

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*
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in confidence.
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suffered as a result of accessing this message or any attachments.

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RE: EU DoC - ATEX Examples

[John Allen]

Hi Folks

In response to John's comment/question, the answer could well be that the
Commission and it's national enforcing authorities do not want to be faced
with the possibility of having chase 2(or even 3 or more under a multiple
branding situation) companies over a non-compliance/safety situation. Thus -
as far as Directives compliance is concerned - they want only 1 company to
take the responsibility for each product.

Regards

John Allen
Technical Consultant
Electromagnetics, Safety and Reliability Group
ERA Technology Ltd
Cleeve Rd
Leatherhead
Surrey KT22 7SA
Tel:+44 (0) 1372-367025 (Direct)
+44 (0) 1372-367000 (Switchboard)
Fax:+44 (0) 1372-367102 (Fax)

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: 07 November 2002 20:37
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: EU DoC - ATEX Examples



I read in !emc-pstc that John Allen  wrote (in
) about 'EU DoC  -
ATEX Examples' on Thu, 7 Nov 2002:

>"The EC declaration of conformity and the application of the CE marking may
>be effected either by the manufacturer or his authorised representative,
but
>not by both.  ." 
>
>Whilst this is ATEX-specific, I think it would appear reasonable to assume
>that the Commission takes a similar line with the other CE Marking
>directives.

Can you think of any justification at all for *banning* 'effecting' by
both? It seems not sensible to me. I doubt that they would both WANT to
do it, but that is beside the point.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk

Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

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Re: Fixes

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that lisa_cef...@mksinst.com wrote (in
) about 'Fixes'
on Thu, 7 Nov 2002:
>Does anyone know of a source, (web site, book, papers, etc.) which contains
>suggestions on how to fix various EMI problems?

Books by Tim Williams, to begin with.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

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Re: Fixes

[Douglas Smith]

Hi Lisa and the group,

I am on a business trip at the moment, but lucky enough to be at a 
hotel with high speed internet service.


Lisa, I guess you could start with my website at http://emcesd.com 
where I have posted about 60 papers and articles, many of them on 
fixing EMI problems. There are links there to my book (High Frequency 
Measurements and Noise in Electronic Circuits).


There are many websites that would help, the problem is that my 
favorites file of them is at home and I am in Reno. NV wondering if I 
will be able to drive home tomorrow (big snow storm predicted for 
mountains). If you send me an email message to remind me, I will send 
you some of my favorite links. In fact, maybe I will post them on my 
website in a few weeks (another trip next week). When I do, I will post 
a notice here.


Doug

On Thursday, Nov 7, 2002, at 11:34 US/Pacific, lisa_cef...@mksinst.com 
wrote:




Hi all,

Does anyone know of a source, (web site, book, papers, etc.) which 
contains

suggestions on how to fix various EMI problems?

Thank you in advance.

Regards,

Lisa



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___  _Doug Smith
 \  / )   P.O. Box 1457
  =   Los Gatos, CA 95031-1457
   _ / \ / \ _TEL/FAX: 408-356-4186/358-3799
 /  /\  \ ] /  /\  \  Mobile:  408-858-4528
|  q-( )  |  o  | Email:   d...@dsmith.org
 \ _ /]\ _ /  Web: http://www.dsmith.org



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RE: Conducted Line Emissions

[Wan Juang Foo]

Dan,
Looks like the detectors are not correct.  The measurement should be done
with a QP detector, the limit line shown is the old FCC Class B.  If the
measurement is to the new limits, then measurement should start at 0.15
MHz.  No conclusion can be made for the region from 0.15 MHz-0.45 MHz!  All
we can see is that the device did not fail the limits for the average
detector between 0.45 MHz - 30 MHz under the new FCC Class B (I dare say
partially "harmonized") standard.

The peak values did go above the average limits of the new standard
(between 1-3 MHz and 6-7MHz) but this is meaningless unless you know
something about the nature or characteristics of the emission.  Judging
from the difference between the result from the average and peak detector
all we can say is that we are dealing with some form of broadband or even
perhaps partially intermitent emission.  This is impossible to tell unless
one have some knowledge of the product. :-)

Looks like this is a case of mistaken identity of sorts.  :-)

Just my 2 ¢ worth.

Tim Foo

EMC Short Course Singapore 25 Nov 2002
http://www.cec.np.edu.sg/courses.phtml?course_code=XC45



  
  "Pettit, Ghery"   
  
  , emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 
  m> cc:  (bcc: Wan Juang 
Foo/ece/staff/npnet)
  Sent by:   Subject: RE: Conducted 
Line Emissions
  owner-emc-pstc@majordo
  
  mo.ieee.org   
  

  

  
  11/08/02 06:56 AM 
  
  Please respond to 
  
  "Pettit, Ghery"   
  

  

  





Dan,

>From the data provided one cannot make a pass/fail decision.  The (old) FCC
limits for power line conducted emissions are based on a quasi-peak
detector.  Going over the limit with a peak detector does not necessarily
mean that the product fails as a peak detector quite often will read higher
than a quasi-peak detector.  Meeting the limit with an average detector is
meaningless as it is not the specified detector.  The new limits are equal
to the limits in CISPR 22 and require both an average and a quasi-peak
detector reading.  In either case, this data is incomplete.  The lab cannot
tell you that you fail, nor can it say you pass.

Radiated emissions are specified with a quasi-peak detector for frequencies
up to and including 1 GHz and an average detector above 1 GHz.

Ghery Pettit
Intel

-Original Message-
From: Dan Pierce [mailto:dpie...@openglobe.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:05 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Conducted Line Emissions


Greetings:

I am looking for proof that I can use the averaged value for emissions
rather than the peak value.  Attached is a chart that I was given by an
Asia
test site that told me I failed.  According to my past experience, I
believe
that the average power is what I should be concerned about.  Similar to
radiated emissions right?


Thank you.

Daniel J. Pierce
Sr. Design Engineer
OpenGlobe, Inc.
> (An Escient Technologies Affiliate)
6325 Digital Way
Indianapolis, IN  46278

mailto:dpie...@openglobe.net

P:  (317) 616.6587
F:  (317) 616.6587








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Re: Conducted Line Emissions

[Leslie Bai]

Dan,

Ask for the tabular "QUASI-PEAK" results against CISPR 22 limits from the lab 
if they told you your product "failed" FCC limits. I guess nobody can tell the 
pass/fail from the plot the lab presented to you.

Leslie

 

Dan Pierce  wrote: 

Greetings:

I am looking for proof that I can use the averaged value for emissions
rather than the peak value. Attached is a chart that I was given by an Asia
test site that told me I failed. According to my past experience, I believe
that the average power is what I should be concerned about. Similar to
radiated emissions right?


Thank you.

Daniel J. Pierce



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Looking for list of family standards for EU

[Grasso, Charles]

Hi group..
 
I am looking for a document that lists all the famliy standards
as defined in the EU.
Does anyone have a link to same??
 
Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Senior Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications Corp.
Tel:  303-706-5467
Fax: 303-799-6222
Cell: 303-204-2974
Email: charles.gra...@echostar.com; 

Email Alternate: chasgra...@ieee.org