RE: NEC Question
Hi gang: I have seen this thread more than once on this forum, regarding the fabled OSHA rule, CFR29 sec. 1910.399 as a basis to propose that ITE product safety in the US is a matter of legislation rather than litigation. It sounds great on the surface, but let's dig a little deeper. 29CFR sec. 1910.399 is the definitions section as applies to Subpart S--Electrical. If we take a look at the scope of Subpart S, found at sec.1910.301, we see that the scope of Subpart S DOES NOT include ITE, unless it is ITE used in Hazardous Locations. The definition found in 1910.399 only applies to "all electric equipment and installations used to provide electric power and light for employee workplaces." IMHO, product safety for ITE in the US is a matter of potential litigation, not legislation. There is no federal law along the lines of the LVD that mandates compliance of ITE to any safety standard. Other product types, such as laser devices and medical devices, have applicable federal code governing design, construction, reporting, record keeping, etc. Of course, the wise manufacturer may employ an independent third party (NRTL) to evaluate the product to accepted safety standards - an advance preperation of the defense against a product liability lawsuit - NOT required by US federal code, and certainly 29CFR does NOT require that ITE used by the American worker be approved by an NRTL. The scope of Subpart S is shown below. I heartily welcome any rebuttals to my opinion. Doug Massey Lead Regulatory Engineer LXE, Inc * This subpart addresses electrical safety requirements that are necessary for the practical safeguarding of employees in their workplaces and is divided into four major divisions as follows: (a) Design safety standards for electrical systems. These regulations are contained in Secs. 1910.302 through 1910.330. Sections 1910.302 through 1910.308 contain design safety standards for electric utilization systems. Included in this category are all electric equipment and installations used to provide electric power and light for employee workplaces. Sections 1910.309 through 1910.330 are reserved for possible future design safety standards for other electrical systems. (b) Safety-related work practices. These regulations will be contained in Secs. 1910.331 through 1910.360. (c) Safety-related maintenance requirements. These regulations will be contained in Secs. 1910.361 through 1910.380. (d) Safety requirements for special equipment. These regulations will be contained in Secs. 1910.381 through 1910.398. (e) Definitions. Definitions applicable to each division are contained in Sec. 1910.399. * -Original Message- From: Eric Petitpierre [mailto:eric.petitpie...@pulse.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 1:35 PM To: jjuh...@fiberoptions.com; sbr...@prodigy.net Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: NEC Question A couple of exceptions to what has been posted before by George and John. Referring to OSHA section 1910.399: "With respect to an installation or equipment of a kind which no nationally recognized testing laboratory accepts, certifies, lists, labels, or determines to be safe, if it is inspected or tested by another federal agency, or by a state, municipal, or other local authority responsible for enforcing occupational safety provisions of the National Electrical Code as applied in this Subpart, or: With respect to custom-made equipment or related installations which are designed, fabricated for, and intended for use by a particular customer, if it is determined to be safe for its intended use by its manufacturer on the basis of test data which the employer keeps and makes available for the inspection to the Assistant Secretary or his authorized representatives." The first part will probably boil down to the same thing, get an NRTL to accept the product. The second part is much more flexible, but limits it to a "particular customer". An excercise in Risk Management if you pursue that approach. Regards, Eric Petitpierre Pulsecom Herndon, VA ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. www.hubbell.com - Hubbell Incorporated ** --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To can
RE: NEC Question
Hello Ron, Yes, as you said. Burden was a poor choice of words. In regards to your second query, as a matter of doing business, it is always in a manufacturer's best interest to know what regulations apply to the use of their products in the hands of their Customers. Having compliant product already available is advantageous to the supplier. However, if a Customer does not require NRTL listing of a product, so be it. Just because you are not listed with an NRTL doesn't mean that your product is unsafe. Also, it is not up to a manufacturer to decide what a workplace is under OSHA regulations, the Customer decides this because the applicable workplace regulations apply to them. Regards, +=+ |Ronald R. Wellman|Voice : 408-345-8229 | |Agilent Technologies |FAX : 408-553-2412 | |5301 Stevens Creek Blvd.,|E-Mail: ron_well...@agilent.com| |Mailstop 54L-BB |WWW : http://www.agilent.com | |Santa Clara, California 95052 USA| | +=+ | "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age | | eighteen." - Albert Einstein | +=+ -Original Message- From: Ron Pickard [mailto:rpick...@hypercom.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 12:57 PM To: ron_well...@agilent.com Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: NEC Question Hi Ron, You wrote: > The burden of having products listed by >an NRTL, like UL, falls on the purchaser of the product if the product is >used in a workplace which is subject to OSHA regulations. To which OSHA regulation are you specifically referring to to make this statement? Its inconceiveable that a purchaser (customer?) be responsible for listing a supplier's product. Maybe you intended to say that, for products used in the workplace, it is the purchaser's responsibility to ensure that products installed under the purchaser's control be compliant to OSHA regulations. Anyway, please explain your statement above. >Most non-IT product manufacturers do not get their products listed unless a >Customer specifically requires it. In some cases, a product may get listed >because it is expected that a product will be marketed in a known >jurisdiction that requires listed products by an NRTL. The State of Oregon >and the City of Los Angeles are a couple examples. If a product, non-IT or otherwise, is to be used in the workplace (OSHA jurisdiction), your statement appears to contradict OSHA regulation, 29CFR Part 1910.399. Please advise. I look forward to your reply for clarification. Best regards, Ron Pickard rpick...@hypercom.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: NEC Question
I think the simple answer is no. The NEC deals primarily with installation wiring and not with equipment plugged into that wiring. A phrase similar to "where listed equipment is installed" is found in many sections of the code, generally where special installation conditions are acceptable which would not be generally accepted. For instance, Article 645 deals with computer rooms. You are allowed to use the special provisions of the article if, among other things, 645-2(c) Listed information technology equipment is installed. As a general rule, the NEC does require listed equipment within the building wiring such as receptacles, panelboards, etc. But, the code does not require that all equipment have a safety agency listing. It is an article by article issue. A specific listing by UL is never required. If listed equipment is required, the listing must be from a NRTL (Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory). A list of NRTL's may be found on the OSHA website. At least as far back as 1982 some articles in the code required listed equipment. The NEC is issued every three years. It is not a regulation. It only has the force of law when adopted by a legal jurisdiction -- town, city, county, state, etc. And, even though the NEC is updated every three years, local legislation may not be. There are some cities whose electrical code ordnance is the NEC from as far back as 2988 or earlier. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance & Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com > -- > From: sbr...@prodigy.net[SMTP:sbr...@prodigy.net] > Reply To: sbr...@prodigy.net > Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 8:57 AM > To: emc-p...@ieee.org > Subject: NEC Question > > > Colleagues: > > The question was asked if all products sold in the US, > specifically industrial products, that plugged into > the mains had to be UL Listed. The answer was that > not necessarily UL Listed, but according to the NEC > they did have to be listed, labeled, certified, > classified, etc., by a 3rd party. The answer went on > to say that this was only applicable if the locality > in which the product were to be used, and their AHJ, > adhered to the NEC and that not all areas of the > country adopted and adhered to the NEC. > > 1. Do you agree with the above responses? > > 2. How long has the NEC required products to be > listed, labeled, certified, classified, etc.? > > Your comments and feedback would be appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > > Steve Brody > sbr...@prodigy.net > > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ > Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" >
Re: NEC Question
Manufacturers of capital equipment for the semiconductor industry have been wrestling with these complicated "listing" problems for a while. We sponsored an all-day meeting on the topic last summer, and the 207 pages of handouts from that meeting can be found at http://www.semi.org/web/winitiatives.nsf/url/ehsW01NRTLpresent which is on the web site of SEMI, our trade organization. Mike Sherman FSI International --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
re: NEC Question
Thanks to all who responded. Great information, as always. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: NEC Question
Found a link to a version of the article that was run in 1999. http://www.conformity.com/9903whentolist.pdf Regards, Kaz Gawrzyjal Dell Computer Corporation -Original Message- From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 12:32 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: NEC Question An excellent paper, "Know when you need to list your product...and when you don't", can be found in Conformity 2002, the annual guide published by Conformity magazine. The paper covers commercial or business statutes, building or fire codes including the NEC, and labor codes. The states of Oregon, Washington, North Carolina and California are discussed as examples. I did not find the article posted on their web site, unfortunately. It might be worth contacting them for a reprint, if it is available. www.conformity.com Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International -Original Message- From: sbr...@prodigy.net [mailto:sbr...@prodigy.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 10:57 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: NEC Question Colleagues: The question was asked if all products sold in the US, specifically industrial products, that plugged into the mains had to be UL Listed. The answer was that not necessarily UL Listed, but according to the NEC they did have to be listed, labeled, certified, classified, etc., by a 3rd party. The answer went on to say that this was only applicable if the locality in which the product were to be used, and their AHJ, adhered to the NEC and that not all areas of the country adopted and adhered to the NEC. 1. Do you agree with the above responses? 2. How long has the NEC required products to be listed, labeled, certified, classified, etc.? Your comments and feedback would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Steve Brody sbr...@prodigy.net --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: NEC Question
A couple of exceptions to what has been posted before by George and John. Referring to OSHA section 1910.399: "With respect to an installation or equipment of a kind which no nationally recognized testing laboratory accepts, certifies, lists, labels, or determines to be safe, if it is inspected or tested by another federal agency, or by a state, municipal, or other local authority responsible for enforcing occupational safety provisions of the National Electrical Code as applied in this Subpart, or: With respect to custom-made equipment or related installations which are designed, fabricated for, and intended for use by a particular customer, if it is determined to be safe for its intended use by its manufacturer on the basis of test data which the employer keeps and makes available for the inspection to the Assistant Secretary or his authorized representatives." The first part will probably boil down to the same thing, get an NRTL to accept the product. The second part is much more flexible, but limits it to a "particular customer". An excercise in Risk Management if you pursue that approach. Regards, Eric Petitpierre Pulsecom Herndon, VA ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. www.hubbell.com - Hubbell Incorporated ** --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: NEC Question
Hello Steve, The NEC doesn't list products. Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (NRTLs) do, under OSHA regulations. However, it is not a requirement for a manufacturer to get products listed. The burden of having products listed by an NRTL, like UL, falls on the purchaser of the product if the product is used in a workplace which is subject to OSHA regulations. Most non-IT product manufacturers do not get their products listed unless a Customer specifically requires it. In some cases, a product may get listed because it is expected that a product will be marketed in a known jurisdiction that requires listed products by an NRTL. The State of Oregon and the City of Los Angeles are a couple examples. Regards, +=+ |Ronald R. Wellman|Voice : 408-345-8229 | |Agilent Technologies |FAX : 408-553-2412 | |5301 Stevens Creek Blvd.,|E-Mail: ron_well...@agilent.com| |Mailstop 54L-BB |WWW : http://www.agilent.com | |Santa Clara, California 95052 USA| | +=+ | "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age | | eighteen." - Albert Einstein | +=+ -Original Message- From: sbr...@prodigy.net [mailto:sbr...@prodigy.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 7:57 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: NEC Question Colleagues: The question was asked if all products sold in the US, specifically industrial products, that plugged into the mains had to be UL Listed. The answer was that not necessarily UL Listed, but according to the NEC they did have to be listed, labeled, certified, classified, etc., by a 3rd party. The answer went on to say that this was only applicable if the locality in which the product were to be used, and their AHJ, adhered to the NEC and that not all areas of the country adopted and adhered to the NEC. 1. Do you agree with the above responses? 2. How long has the NEC required products to be listed, labeled, certified, classified, etc.? Your comments and feedback would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Steve Brody sbr...@prodigy.net --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: NEC Question
An excellent paper, "Know when you need to list your product...and when you don't", can be found in Conformity 2002, the annual guide published by Conformity magazine. The paper covers commercial or business statutes, building or fire codes including the NEC, and labor codes. The states of Oregon, Washington, North Carolina and California are discussed as examples. I did not find the article posted on their web site, unfortunately. It might be worth contacting them for a reprint, if it is available. www.conformity.com Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International -Original Message- From: sbr...@prodigy.net [mailto:sbr...@prodigy.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 10:57 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: NEC Question Colleagues: The question was asked if all products sold in the US, specifically industrial products, that plugged into the mains had to be UL Listed. The answer was that not necessarily UL Listed, but according to the NEC they did have to be listed, labeled, certified, classified, etc., by a 3rd party. The answer went on to say that this was only applicable if the locality in which the product were to be used, and their AHJ, adhered to the NEC and that not all areas of the country adopted and adhered to the NEC. 1. Do you agree with the above responses? 2. How long has the NEC required products to be listed, labeled, certified, classified, etc.? Your comments and feedback would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Steve Brody sbr...@prodigy.net --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: NEC Question
Steve, To further George's remarks, if you have a product that may be 'custom' or the construction is inconsistent enough to make a general 'listing' by an NRTL unfeasible (more common with industrial products/installations), you may want to consider a 'Field Evaluation' by an NRTL for the product. John Juhasz GE Interlogix Fiber Options Div. Bohemia, NY -Original Message- From: geor...@lexmark.com [mailto:geor...@lexmark.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 11:16 AM To: sbr...@prodigy.net Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: NEC Question Steve, If the products in question are going into U.S. workplaces, they are bound under the OSHA requirements in the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations to be "listed" by an NRTL, regardless of the locale. Approved NRTLs can be found at: http://www.osha-slc.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/index.html#nrtls Note that not all NRTLs are approved to test to all the standards. You can use any approved to test to the standard covering your products. George sbrody%prodigy@interlock.lexmark.com on 03/20/2002 10:57:28 AM Please respond to sbrody%prodigy@interlock.lexmark.com To: emc-pstc%ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: NEC Question Colleagues: The question was asked if all products sold in the US, specifically industrial products, that plugged into the mains had to be UL Listed. The answer was that not necessarily UL Listed, but according to the NEC they did have to be listed, labeled, certified, classified, etc., by a 3rd party. The answer went on to say that this was only applicable if the locality in which the product were to be used, and their AHJ, adhered to the NEC and that not all areas of the country adopted and adhered to the NEC. 1. Do you agree with the above responses? 2. How long has the NEC required products to be listed, labeled, certified, classified, etc.? Your comments and feedback would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Steve Brody sbr...@prodigy.net --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
Re: NEC Question
Steve, If the products in question are going into U.S. workplaces, they are bound under the OSHA requirements in the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations to be "listed" by an NRTL, regardless of the locale. Approved NRTLs can be found at: http://www.osha-slc.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/index.html#nrtls Note that not all NRTLs are approved to test to all the standards. You can use any approved to test to the standard covering your products. George sbrody%prodigy@interlock.lexmark.com on 03/20/2002 10:57:28 AM Please respond to sbrody%prodigy@interlock.lexmark.com To: emc-pstc%ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: NEC Question Colleagues: The question was asked if all products sold in the US, specifically industrial products, that plugged into the mains had to be UL Listed. The answer was that not necessarily UL Listed, but according to the NEC they did have to be listed, labeled, certified, classified, etc., by a 3rd party. The answer went on to say that this was only applicable if the locality in which the product were to be used, and their AHJ, adhered to the NEC and that not all areas of the country adopted and adhered to the NEC. 1. Do you agree with the above responses? 2. How long has the NEC required products to be listed, labeled, certified, classified, etc.? Your comments and feedback would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Steve Brody sbr...@prodigy.net --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Scott: Very, very, likely.. Jack - Original Message - From: Scott Barrows To: Jacob Schanker ; PSTC Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 5:10 PM Subject: Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA | Jacob, | I would imagine that when the electrical inspector came in to review the electrical connections of that computerized, | T1 hooked up brand new home, there would be an issue that would relate to the NEC. | | Scott | | Jacob Schanker wrote: | | > Rich: | > | > You are implying, but not stating, that NEC has the force of law | > regarding the domestic environment. | > | > This differs with my understanding, or lack thereof. I have | > always regarded the National Electric Code as a recommended set | > of standards and practices which enabled localities to reference | > NEC in their local building codes, rather than develop their own | > from scratch. | > | > Perhaps you can expand on where the force of law applies to the | > NEC with regard to portable, plug-in (not permanently wired) home | > appliances and such? | > | > Jack | > | > Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. | > 65 Crandon Way | > Rochester, NY 14618 | > Phone: 716 442 3909 | > Fax: 716 442 2182 | > j.schan...@ieee.org | > | > - Original Message - | > From: Rich Nute | > To: | > Cc: ; ; | > ; | > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:32 PM | > Subject: Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA | > | > | | > | | > | | > | Hi Gregg: | > | | > | | > | > Just to ensure that I have my understanding right - if the | > equipment is used | > | > where OSHA applies then it must be approved by a third | > party like UL | > | | > | Yes. More specifically: | > | | > |If... the product is used by an employee in the workplace... | > | | > |Then... the product must be certified by an NRTL, | > |of which UL is one. | > | | > | > If it is domestic then it does not (in most states. | > | | > | No and yes. | > | | > | No, OSHA rules do not apply to a domestic place. | > | | > | Yes, NEC rules apply to a domestic place and do | > | require third-party safety certification. | > | | > | OSHA rules apply to the workplace, not to domestic places. | > | So, domestic places are not required -by OSHA- to have | > | NRTL-certified products. | > | | > | HOWEVER, the National Electrical Code applies everywhere, | > | including domestic places. The NEC requires products, | > | including domestic products, to be "listed" by a third- | > | party engaged in the safety evaluation of products. | > | | > | The NEC does not specify the third-party. During the | > | process of adoption of the NEC by various city, county, | > | or state governments, the government agency decides | > | which certification houses are acceptable to them. The | > | acceptable certification houses are published locally. | > | | > | For a third-party certifier, this means the certifier | > | must not only apply to OSHA for NRTL, but must also | > | apply to every jurisdiction in the USA for acceptance | > | under the NEC. | > | | > | Many, but not all NRTLs are also accepted by the various | > | city, county, or state governments under the local version | > | of the NEC. | > | | > | Likewise, there are some certifiers who are accepted by | > | one or more governments under the NEC, but are not NRTLs. | > | | > | There are a few pockets where local governments do not | > | require "listing" under the NEC. | > | | > | In summary: | > | | > | OSHA requires products used in the workplace to be | > | certified by an NRTL. | > | | > | The NEC requires products used in an installation | > | (including domestic places) to be certified by an | > | organization designated by the local government | > | agency charged with enforcing the NEC. | > | | > | These are independent functions. | > | | > | For all practical purposes, third-party safety certification | > | is required throughout the USA. | > | | > | Enforcement of both OSHA and NEC for cord-connected products | > | is spotty at best. | > | | > | Since virtually all products are NRTL-certified, OSHA spends | > | its time addressing more immediate workplace safety issues. | > | | > | Since cord-connected products are installed AFTER the | > | electrical installation is complete and approved, and since | > | virtually all products are safety-certified, there is little | > | or no enforcement of NEC-required certification. | > | | > | > AND, does anyone have a list of States where certification | > is mandated? | > | | > | I would be easier to come up with a list of where certification | > | is NOT required! :-) It would be
Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Jacob, I would imagine that when the electrical inspector came in to review the electrical connections of that computerized, T1 hooked up brand new home, there would be an issue that would relate to the NEC. Scott Jacob Schanker wrote: > Rich: > > You are implying, but not stating, that NEC has the force of law > regarding the domestic environment. > > This differs with my understanding, or lack thereof. I have > always regarded the National Electric Code as a recommended set > of standards and practices which enabled localities to reference > NEC in their local building codes, rather than develop their own > from scratch. > > Perhaps you can expand on where the force of law applies to the > NEC with regard to portable, plug-in (not permanently wired) home > appliances and such? > > Jack > > Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. > 65 Crandon Way > Rochester, NY 14618 > Phone: 716 442 3909 > Fax: 716 442 2182 > j.schan...@ieee.org > > - Original Message - > From: Rich Nute > To: > Cc: ; ; > ; > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:32 PM > Subject: Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA > > | > | > | > | Hi Gregg: > | > | > | > Just to ensure that I have my understanding right - if the > equipment is used > | > where OSHA applies then it must be approved by a third > party like UL > | > | Yes. More specifically: > | > |If... the product is used by an employee in the workplace... > | > |Then... the product must be certified by an NRTL, > |of which UL is one. > | > | > If it is domestic then it does not (in most states. > | > | No and yes. > | > | No, OSHA rules do not apply to a domestic place. > | > | Yes, NEC rules apply to a domestic place and do > | require third-party safety certification. > | > | OSHA rules apply to the workplace, not to domestic places. > | So, domestic places are not required -by OSHA- to have > | NRTL-certified products. > | > | HOWEVER, the National Electrical Code applies everywhere, > | including domestic places. The NEC requires products, > | including domestic products, to be "listed" by a third- > | party engaged in the safety evaluation of products. > | > | The NEC does not specify the third-party. During the > | process of adoption of the NEC by various city, county, > | or state governments, the government agency decides > | which certification houses are acceptable to them. The > | acceptable certification houses are published locally. > | > | For a third-party certifier, this means the certifier > | must not only apply to OSHA for NRTL, but must also > | apply to every jurisdiction in the USA for acceptance > | under the NEC. > | > | Many, but not all NRTLs are also accepted by the various > | city, county, or state governments under the local version > | of the NEC. > | > | Likewise, there are some certifiers who are accepted by > | one or more governments under the NEC, but are not NRTLs. > | > | There are a few pockets where local governments do not > | require "listing" under the NEC. > | > | In summary: > | > | OSHA requires products used in the workplace to be > | certified by an NRTL. > | > | The NEC requires products used in an installation > | (including domestic places) to be certified by an > | organization designated by the local government > | agency charged with enforcing the NEC. > | > | These are independent functions. > | > | For all practical purposes, third-party safety certification > | is required throughout the USA. > | > | Enforcement of both OSHA and NEC for cord-connected products > | is spotty at best. > | > | Since virtually all products are NRTL-certified, OSHA spends > | its time addressing more immediate workplace safety issues. > | > | Since cord-connected products are installed AFTER the > | electrical installation is complete and approved, and since > | virtually all products are safety-certified, there is little > | or no enforcement of NEC-required certification. > | > | > AND, does anyone have a list of States where certification > is mandated? > | > | I would be easier to come up with a list of where certification > | is NOT required! :-) It would be a one-page list of cities > | or counties which have very low population densities. > | > | > | Best regards, > | Rich > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel yo
RE: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Unfortunately, compliance to the NEC is only required if the local or state government adopts it. Even then, they are not required to adopt any specific edition of the NEC. There are communities that are still using older editions as their current code. Some states have their own electrical codes, which they feel are better than NEC's. So, there are no absolutes about this subject. -Original Message- From: Rich Nute [mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:32 PM To: gkerv...@eu-link.com Cc: schan...@frontiernet.net; wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; mi...@ucentric.com Subject: Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA Hi Gregg: > Just to ensure that I have my understanding right - if the equipment is used > where OSHA applies then it must be approved by a third party like UL Yes. More specifically: If... the product is used by an employee in the workplace... Then... the product must be certified by an NRTL, of which UL is one. > If it is domestic then it does not (in most states. No and yes. No, OSHA rules do not apply to a domestic place. Yes, NEC rules apply to a domestic place and do require third-party safety certification. OSHA rules apply to the workplace, not to domestic places. So, domestic places are not required -by OSHA- to have NRTL-certified products. HOWEVER, the National Electrical Code applies everywhere, including domestic places. The NEC requires products, including domestic products, to be "listed" by a third- party engaged in the safety evaluation of products. The NEC does not specify the third-party. During the process of adoption of the NEC by various city, county, or state governments, the government agency decides which certification houses are acceptable to them. The acceptable certification houses are published locally. For a third-party certifier, this means the certifier must not only apply to OSHA for NRTL, but must also apply to every jurisdiction in the USA for acceptance under the NEC. Many, but not all NRTLs are also accepted by the various city, county, or state governments under the local version of the NEC. Likewise, there are some certifiers who are accepted by one or more governments under the NEC, but are not NRTLs. There are a few pockets where local governments do not require "listing" under the NEC. In summary: OSHA requires products used in the workplace to be certified by an NRTL. The NEC requires products used in an installation (including domestic places) to be certified by an organization designated by the local government agency charged with enforcing the NEC. These are independent functions. For all practical purposes, third-party safety certification is required throughout the USA. Enforcement of both OSHA and NEC for cord-connected products is spotty at best. Since virtually all products are NRTL-certified, OSHA spends its time addressing more immediate workplace safety issues. Since cord-connected products are installed AFTER the electrical installation is complete and approved, and since virtually all products are safety-certified, there is little or no enforcement of NEC-required certification. > AND, does anyone have a list of States where certification is mandated? I would be easier to come up with a list of where certification is NOT required! :-) It would be a one-page list of cities or counties which have very low population densities. Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org A
Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Hi Jack: > You are implying, but not stating, that NEC has the force of law > regarding the domestic environment. I meant to state that the NEC does indeed have the force of law not only for the domestic environment but for all electrical installations within the scope of the NEC. > This differs with my understanding, or lack thereof. I have > always regarded the National Electric Code as a recommended set > of standards and practices which enabled localities to reference > NEC in their local building codes, rather than develop their own > from scratch. The NEC as published by the NFPA is indeed a recommended code. It is specifically offered to authorities for adoption as their Code. For example, the States of Oregon and Washington adopt each edition of the Code. The adoption is NOT a reference, but a true establishment of the NEC as the local Electrical Code, i.e., a regulation under the law. (Most authorities adopting the Code also have a few variations as well as identification of accepted safety certification houses. Sometimes, this is a pamphlet that supplements the NEC book.) However, various governments do indeed develop their own electrical code. The cities of Chicago and Los Angeles are two examples. > Perhaps you can expand on where the force of law applies to the > NEC with regard to portable, plug-in (not permanently wired) home > appliances and such? The adoption of the Code makes the Code a regulation under the law. Usually the law is the one that establishes the Building Code, of which the Electrical Code is a part. I recently posted a message specifically identifying the NEC Articles that specify third-party safety certification of appliances. I hope this answers your question! Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Rich: You are implying, but not stating, that NEC has the force of law regarding the domestic environment. This differs with my understanding, or lack thereof. I have always regarded the National Electric Code as a recommended set of standards and practices which enabled localities to reference NEC in their local building codes, rather than develop their own from scratch. Perhaps you can expand on where the force of law applies to the NEC with regard to portable, plug-in (not permanently wired) home appliances and such? Jack Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Phone: 716 442 3909 Fax: 716 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org - Original Message - From: Rich Nute To: Cc: ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:32 PM Subject: Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA | | | | Hi Gregg: | | | > Just to ensure that I have my understanding right - if the equipment is used | > where OSHA applies then it must be approved by a third party like UL | | Yes. More specifically: | |If... the product is used by an employee in the workplace... | |Then... the product must be certified by an NRTL, |of which UL is one. | | > If it is domestic then it does not (in most states. | | No and yes. | | No, OSHA rules do not apply to a domestic place. | | Yes, NEC rules apply to a domestic place and do | require third-party safety certification. | | OSHA rules apply to the workplace, not to domestic places. | So, domestic places are not required -by OSHA- to have | NRTL-certified products. | | HOWEVER, the National Electrical Code applies everywhere, | including domestic places. The NEC requires products, | including domestic products, to be "listed" by a third- | party engaged in the safety evaluation of products. | | The NEC does not specify the third-party. During the | process of adoption of the NEC by various city, county, | or state governments, the government agency decides | which certification houses are acceptable to them. The | acceptable certification houses are published locally. | | For a third-party certifier, this means the certifier | must not only apply to OSHA for NRTL, but must also | apply to every jurisdiction in the USA for acceptance | under the NEC. | | Many, but not all NRTLs are also accepted by the various | city, county, or state governments under the local version | of the NEC. | | Likewise, there are some certifiers who are accepted by | one or more governments under the NEC, but are not NRTLs. | | There are a few pockets where local governments do not | require "listing" under the NEC. | | In summary: | | OSHA requires products used in the workplace to be | certified by an NRTL. | | The NEC requires products used in an installation | (including domestic places) to be certified by an | organization designated by the local government | agency charged with enforcing the NEC. | | These are independent functions. | | For all practical purposes, third-party safety certification | is required throughout the USA. | | Enforcement of both OSHA and NEC for cord-connected products | is spotty at best. | | Since virtually all products are NRTL-certified, OSHA spends | its time addressing more immediate workplace safety issues. | | Since cord-connected products are installed AFTER the | electrical installation is complete and approved, and since | virtually all products are safety-certified, there is little | or no enforcement of NEC-required certification. | | > AND, does anyone have a list of States where certification is mandated? | | I would be easier to come up with a list of where certification | is NOT required! :-) It would be a one-page list of cities | or counties which have very low population densities. | | | Best regards, | Rich | | | | | | | --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Hi Gregg: > Just to ensure that I have my understanding right - if the equipment is used > where OSHA applies then it must be approved by a third party like UL Yes. More specifically: If... the product is used by an employee in the workplace... Then... the product must be certified by an NRTL, of which UL is one. > If it is domestic then it does not (in most states. No and yes. No, OSHA rules do not apply to a domestic place. Yes, NEC rules apply to a domestic place and do require third-party safety certification. OSHA rules apply to the workplace, not to domestic places. So, domestic places are not required -by OSHA- to have NRTL-certified products. HOWEVER, the National Electrical Code applies everywhere, including domestic places. The NEC requires products, including domestic products, to be "listed" by a third- party engaged in the safety evaluation of products. The NEC does not specify the third-party. During the process of adoption of the NEC by various city, county, or state governments, the government agency decides which certification houses are acceptable to them. The acceptable certification houses are published locally. For a third-party certifier, this means the certifier must not only apply to OSHA for NRTL, but must also apply to every jurisdiction in the USA for acceptance under the NEC. Many, but not all NRTLs are also accepted by the various city, county, or state governments under the local version of the NEC. Likewise, there are some certifiers who are accepted by one or more governments under the NEC, but are not NRTLs. There are a few pockets where local governments do not require "listing" under the NEC. In summary: OSHA requires products used in the workplace to be certified by an NRTL. The NEC requires products used in an installation (including domestic places) to be certified by an organization designated by the local government agency charged with enforcing the NEC. These are independent functions. For all practical purposes, third-party safety certification is required throughout the USA. Enforcement of both OSHA and NEC for cord-connected products is spotty at best. Since virtually all products are NRTL-certified, OSHA spends its time addressing more immediate workplace safety issues. Since cord-connected products are installed AFTER the electrical installation is complete and approved, and since virtually all products are safety-certified, there is little or no enforcement of NEC-required certification. > AND, does anyone have a list of States where certification is mandated? I would be easier to come up with a list of where certification is NOT required! :-) It would be a one-page list of cities or counties which have very low population densities. Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Don't forget the Product Liability Lawyers ! ! Listing a product does not "protect" the manufacturer from being sued, it just establishes that the manufacturer has been duly diligent and therefore has not been negligent. This makes a huge difference when a lawsuit happens. In our society, where lawyers outnumber engineers, suit happens. Best regards, Dan DTEC Associates LLC http://www.dtec-associates.com Streamlining the Compliance Process 5406 S. Glendora Drive Spokane, WA 99223 (509) 443-0215 (509) 443-0181 fax -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Gregg Kervill Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:12 AM To: 'Jacob Schanker'; wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; mi...@ucentric.com Subject: RE: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA Just to ensure that I have my understanding right - if the equipment is used where OSHA applies then it must be approved by a third party like UL If it is domestic then it does not (in most states. Comments please. AND, does anyone have a list of States where certification is mandated? Best regards Gregg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: NEC Question
YES, FOR THE CONSUMER MARKET, THIS IS LIKE THE UNLISTED CHRISTMAS TREE LIGHTS INVASION EACH YEAR. -Original Message- From: Jacob Schanker [mailto:schan...@frontiernet.net] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:34 AM To: Nikolassy, Anton; wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; mi...@ucentric.com Subject: Re: NEC Question Anton: Yes, I think you have summed it up nicely. Actually, I have found it very helpful, both for myself and for explaining to others, to consider the sociological background leading to regulations in the US and in Europe. Basically, the US, as I see it for this purpose, is a wild-west capitalist society. Anything goes and the market rules, unless we are told otherwise. The government protecting us from ourselves is a relatively recent development. Europe tends to paternalism and socialism. Government sets the rules and the rules protect the people. Maybe this stems from a history of monarchy and dictatorships. Anyways, the regulation writing business in Europe must certainly represent a significant part of the Gross National Product in EU countries. So, we have examples like EU requiring immunity testing/declaration of products before they are marketed. A consumer has a right to expect that the radio receiver or stereo amplifier or whatever they purchase will be reasonably immune from interference and disruption by unwanted signals. In the US, on the other hand, the FCC makes no requirements for immunity, only for emissions. Here, the marketplace is supposed to operate to eliminate "faulty" products which have poor immunity. Theory is that consumers will not buy these things. The trouble is that consumers DO buy these things, and that causes endless problems for people (like me) who are involved with radio/TV broadcasting, or other wireless transmitters. Put another way, in the US we have the freedom to buy crap and then complain about it. Back to topic: It has been accurately pointed out that employers/businesses have an obligation, under Federal Law, to use listed products for the safety of their workers. However, just to reiterate, equipment manufacturers have no legal obligation to list products before selling. Again, we see the marketplace. Why would a business buy anything other than a listed product? (The answer is generally ignorance of the requirement). Of course, I could be wrong. Regards, Jack Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Phone: 716 442 3909 Fax: 716 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org - Original Message - From: Nikolassy, Anton To: 'Jacob Schanker' ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:25 AM Subject: RE: NEC Question | This is a very interesting conversation. Basically you are saying that this | is America. Your allowed to be as liable as you want to be. | | Tony Nikolassy | FMRC | | -Original Message- | From: Jacob Schanker [mailto:schan...@frontiernet.net] | Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 4:38 PM | To: wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; | mi...@ucentric.com | Subject: Re: NEC Question | | | | Mike: | | There is no Federal requirement for the manufacturer to have | equipment listed or NRTL approved. The requirements are set by | localities, as Richard Woods clearly points out. | | I can understand that in some companies, the "powers-that-be" | have little patience with the time and expense of obtaining a | listing. The delay in hitting the market is often more costly | than the approval process itself. | | I say TOUGH. They should have allowed for that in the original | project plan and schedule. There was one, wasn't there? | | If you are having a problem, just ask marketing to agree to | exclude the areas that Richard enumerated from their sales areas. | If it's OK to exclude LA, etc. etc., than listing isn't needed, | legally. | | But the competition may be listing, so not doing so puts you at a | disadvantage. | | I have asked managers to imagine sitting on the witness stand at | a product liability trial, and trying to answer the question, why | didn't you get safety approval from an NRTL? | | When the implications of shortcuts are driven home, most people | see the light. Those that don't need to stick their fingers in an | unlisted light socket. | | Rant concluded, best regards, | | Jack | | Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. | 65 Crandon Way | Rochester, NY 14618 | Phone: 716 442 3909 | Fax: 716 442 2182 | j.schan...@ieee.org | | - Original Message - | From: | To: | Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 12:23 PM | Subject: RE: NEC Question | | | | | | Mike, regardless of what the NEC says, and it is not very clear | in this | | regard, it is the state, county and city electrical codes and | other local | | regulations that apply. Many jurisdictions have deviations from | the NEC | | and/or have other regulations that require electrical equipment | sold to the | | general public be Listed. I know of the following
Re: NEC Question
Anton: Yes, I think you have summed it up nicely. Actually, I have found it very helpful, both for myself and for explaining to others, to consider the sociological background leading to regulations in the US and in Europe. Basically, the US, as I see it for this purpose, is a wild-west capitalist society. Anything goes and the market rules, unless we are told otherwise. The government protecting us from ourselves is a relatively recent development. Europe tends to paternalism and socialism. Government sets the rules and the rules protect the people. Maybe this stems from a history of monarchy and dictatorships. Anyways, the regulation writing business in Europe must certainly represent a significant part of the Gross National Product in EU countries. So, we have examples like EU requiring immunity testing/declaration of products before they are marketed. A consumer has a right to expect that the radio receiver or stereo amplifier or whatever they purchase will be reasonably immune from interference and disruption by unwanted signals. In the US, on the other hand, the FCC makes no requirements for immunity, only for emissions. Here, the marketplace is supposed to operate to eliminate "faulty" products which have poor immunity. Theory is that consumers will not buy these things. The trouble is that consumers DO buy these things, and that causes endless problems for people (like me) who are involved with radio/TV broadcasting, or other wireless transmitters. Put another way, in the US we have the freedom to buy crap and then complain about it. Back to topic: It has been accurately pointed out that employers/businesses have an obligation, under Federal Law, to use listed products for the safety of their workers. However, just to reiterate, equipment manufacturers have no legal obligation to list products before selling. Again, we see the marketplace. Why would a business buy anything other than a listed product? (The answer is generally ignorance of the requirement). Of course, I could be wrong. Regards, Jack Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Phone: 716 442 3909 Fax: 716 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org - Original Message - From: Nikolassy, Anton To: 'Jacob Schanker' ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:25 AM Subject: RE: NEC Question | This is a very interesting conversation. Basically you are saying that this | is America. Your allowed to be as liable as you want to be. | | Tony Nikolassy | FMRC | | -Original Message- | From: Jacob Schanker [mailto:schan...@frontiernet.net] | Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 4:38 PM | To: wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; | mi...@ucentric.com | Subject: Re: NEC Question | | | | Mike: | | There is no Federal requirement for the manufacturer to have | equipment listed or NRTL approved. The requirements are set by | localities, as Richard Woods clearly points out. | | I can understand that in some companies, the "powers-that-be" | have little patience with the time and expense of obtaining a | listing. The delay in hitting the market is often more costly | than the approval process itself. | | I say TOUGH. They should have allowed for that in the original | project plan and schedule. There was one, wasn't there? | | If you are having a problem, just ask marketing to agree to | exclude the areas that Richard enumerated from their sales areas. | If it's OK to exclude LA, etc. etc., than listing isn't needed, | legally. | | But the competition may be listing, so not doing so puts you at a | disadvantage. | | I have asked managers to imagine sitting on the witness stand at | a product liability trial, and trying to answer the question, why | didn't you get safety approval from an NRTL? | | When the implications of shortcuts are driven home, most people | see the light. Those that don't need to stick their fingers in an | unlisted light socket. | | Rant concluded, best regards, | | Jack | | Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. | 65 Crandon Way | Rochester, NY 14618 | Phone: 716 442 3909 | Fax: 716 442 2182 | j.schan...@ieee.org | | - Original Message - | From: | To: | Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 12:23 PM | Subject: RE: NEC Question | | | | | | Mike, regardless of what the NEC says, and it is not very clear | in this | | regard, it is the state, county and city electrical codes and | other local | | regulations that apply. Many jurisdictions have deviations from | the NEC | | and/or have other regulations that require electrical equipment | sold to the | | general public be Listed. I know of the following locations: | Virginia, North | | Carolina, Los Angeles, Counties of Los Angeles and Orange, and | San | | Francisco. I have also heard but cannot confirm that other | locations include | | Oregon, Washington, New York city and Chicago. | | | | Richard Woods | | Sensormatic Electronics | | | | | | -Original Message- | | From: Mike
RE: NEC Question
This is a very interesting conversation. Basically you are saying that this is America. Your allowed to be as liable as you want to be. Tony Nikolassy FMRC -Original Message- From: Jacob Schanker [mailto:schan...@frontiernet.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 4:38 PM To: wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; mi...@ucentric.com Subject: Re: NEC Question Mike: There is no Federal requirement for the manufacturer to have equipment listed or NRTL approved. The requirements are set by localities, as Richard Woods clearly points out. I can understand that in some companies, the "powers-that-be" have little patience with the time and expense of obtaining a listing. The delay in hitting the market is often more costly than the approval process itself. I say TOUGH. They should have allowed for that in the original project plan and schedule. There was one, wasn't there? If you are having a problem, just ask marketing to agree to exclude the areas that Richard enumerated from their sales areas. If it's OK to exclude LA, etc. etc., than listing isn't needed, legally. But the competition may be listing, so not doing so puts you at a disadvantage. I have asked managers to imagine sitting on the witness stand at a product liability trial, and trying to answer the question, why didn't you get safety approval from an NRTL? When the implications of shortcuts are driven home, most people see the light. Those that don't need to stick their fingers in an unlisted light socket. Rant concluded, best regards, Jack Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Phone: 716 442 3909 Fax: 716 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 12:23 PM Subject: RE: NEC Question | | Mike, regardless of what the NEC says, and it is not very clear in this | regard, it is the state, county and city electrical codes and other local | regulations that apply. Many jurisdictions have deviations from the NEC | and/or have other regulations that require electrical equipment sold to the | general public be Listed. I know of the following locations: Virginia, North | Carolina, Los Angeles, Counties of Los Angeles and Orange, and San | Francisco. I have also heard but cannot confirm that other locations include | Oregon, Washington, New York city and Chicago. | | Richard Woods | Sensormatic Electronics | | | -Original Message- | From: Mike Morrow [mailto:mi...@ucentric.com] | Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:52 AM | To: EMC Society | Subject: NEC Question | | | | Can someone point me to a section in the NEC that says a piece of | RESIDENTIAL computer equipment must be "listed" (NEC definition). Article | 645 which requires a "listed" piece of equipment appears to apply to a | computer room and not a residence. | | Basically I've been asked where its says a piece of computer equipment must | listed/approved by a NRTL. I'm ignoring the obvious liability implications | should someone get injured for the purposes of this question.. | | Any help is appreciated. | | Mike Morrow | Senior Compliance Engineer | Ucentric Systems, LLC | 978-823-8166 | mi...@ucentric.com | | | --- | This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety | Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. | | Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ | | To cancel your subscription, send mail to: | majord...@ieee.org | with the single line: | unsubscribe emc-pstc | | For help, send mail to the list administrators: | Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org | Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net | | For policy questions, send mail to: | Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org | Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org | | All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: | No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old | messages are imported into the new server. | | --- | This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety | Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. | | Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ | | To cancel your subscription, send mail to: | majord...@ieee.org | with the single line: | unsubscribe emc-pstc | | For help, send mail to the list administrators: | Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org | Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net | | For policy questions, send mail to: | Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org | Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org | | All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: | No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. | --- This messag
RE: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Just to ensure that I have my understanding right - if the equipment is used where OSHA applies then it must be approved by a third party like UL If it is domestic then it does not (in most states. Comments please. AND, does anyone have a list of States where certification is mandated? Best regards Gregg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: NEC Question
Mike: There is no Federal requirement for the manufacturer to have equipment listed or NRTL approved. The requirements are set by localities, as Richard Woods clearly points out. I can understand that in some companies, the "powers-that-be" have little patience with the time and expense of obtaining a listing. The delay in hitting the market is often more costly than the approval process itself. I say TOUGH. They should have allowed for that in the original project plan and schedule. There was one, wasn't there? If you are having a problem, just ask marketing to agree to exclude the areas that Richard enumerated from their sales areas. If it's OK to exclude LA, etc. etc., than listing isn't needed, legally. But the competition may be listing, so not doing so puts you at a disadvantage. I have asked managers to imagine sitting on the witness stand at a product liability trial, and trying to answer the question, why didn't you get safety approval from an NRTL? When the implications of shortcuts are driven home, most people see the light. Those that don't need to stick their fingers in an unlisted light socket. Rant concluded, best regards, Jack Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Phone: 716 442 3909 Fax: 716 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 12:23 PM Subject: RE: NEC Question | | Mike, regardless of what the NEC says, and it is not very clear in this | regard, it is the state, county and city electrical codes and other local | regulations that apply. Many jurisdictions have deviations from the NEC | and/or have other regulations that require electrical equipment sold to the | general public be Listed. I know of the following locations: Virginia, North | Carolina, Los Angeles, Counties of Los Angeles and Orange, and San | Francisco. I have also heard but cannot confirm that other locations include | Oregon, Washington, New York city and Chicago. | | Richard Woods | Sensormatic Electronics | | | -Original Message- | From: Mike Morrow [mailto:mi...@ucentric.com] | Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:52 AM | To: EMC Society | Subject: NEC Question | | | | Can someone point me to a section in the NEC that says a piece of | RESIDENTIAL computer equipment must be "listed" (NEC definition). Article | 645 which requires a "listed" piece of equipment appears to apply to a | computer room and not a residence. | | Basically I've been asked where its says a piece of computer equipment must | listed/approved by a NRTL. I'm ignoring the obvious liability implications | should someone get injured for the purposes of this question.. | | Any help is appreciated. | | Mike Morrow | Senior Compliance Engineer | Ucentric Systems, LLC | 978-823-8166 | mi...@ucentric.com | | | --- | This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety | Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. | | Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ | | To cancel your subscription, send mail to: | majord...@ieee.org | with the single line: | unsubscribe emc-pstc | | For help, send mail to the list administrators: | Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org | Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net | | For policy questions, send mail to: | Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org | Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org | | All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: | No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old | messages are imported into the new server. | | --- | This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety | Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. | | Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ | | To cancel your subscription, send mail to: | majord...@ieee.org | with the single line: | unsubscribe emc-pstc | | For help, send mail to the list administrators: | Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org | Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net | | For policy questions, send mail to: | Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org | Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org | | All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: | No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. | --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave
RE: NEC Question
Hi Mike, I don't know if this will help but, CFR 29 Section 1910.399 subpart S.. is where the NRTL'S hang their hats on this issue. Good Luck Joe Josiah P. Burch Compliance Engineer II Andover Controls Corporation 300 Brickstone Square Andover,Ma 01810 (978)-470-0555 x335 (978)-470-3615 Fax > -Original Message- > From: Mike Morrow [SMTP:mi...@ucentric.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:52 AM > To: EMC Society > Subject: NEC Question > > > Can someone point me to a section in the NEC that says a piece of > RESIDENTIAL computer equipment must be "listed" (NEC definition). Article > 645 which requires a "listed" piece of equipment appears to apply to a > computer room and not a residence. > > Basically I've been asked where its says a piece of computer equipment must > listed/approved by a NRTL. I'm ignoring the obvious liability implications > should someone get injured for the purposes of this question.. > > Any help is appreciated. > > Mike Morrow > Senior Compliance Engineer > Ucentric Systems, LLC > 978-823-8166 > mi...@ucentric.com > > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org > Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old > messages are imported into the new server.
Re: NEC Question
Hi Mike: > Can someone point me to a section in the NEC that says a piece of > RESIDENTIAL computer equipment must be "listed" (NEC definition). Article > 645 which requires a "listed" piece of equipment appears to apply to a > computer room and not a residence. In terms of the NEC, a computer is an "appliance." (Article 100, definitions.) Also see the definition for "utilization equipment." An "appliance" is also an "equipment." (Article 100, definitions.) Article 110-2 requires equipment to be "approved." "Approved" means "acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction." (Article 100, definitions.) Article 90-7 states that "...equipment need not be inspected at the time of installation... if the equipment has been listed..." "Listed" is defined in Article 100. So, the NEC says that a residential computer must be Listed. > Basically I've been asked where its says a piece of computer equipment must > listed/approved by a NRTL. I'm ignoring the obvious liability implications > should someone get injured for the purposes of this question.. The NEC does not require listing by a NRTL. (NRTL is an OSHA concept, not a NEC concept.) The acceptable certification houses are defined by the authority having jurisdiction (the government that is enforcing the code, i.e, the city, county, or state). Many NRTLs are also accepted by all jurisdictions, but not necessarily so. Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: NEC Question
Mike, regardless of what the NEC says, and it is not very clear in this regard, it is the state, county and city electrical codes and other local regulations that apply. Many jurisdictions have deviations from the NEC and/or have other regulations that require electrical equipment sold to the general public be Listed. I know of the following locations: Virginia, North Carolina, Los Angeles, Counties of Los Angeles and Orange, and San Francisco. I have also heard but cannot confirm that other locations include Oregon, Washington, New York city and Chicago. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics -Original Message- From: Mike Morrow [mailto:mi...@ucentric.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:52 AM To: EMC Society Subject: NEC Question Can someone point me to a section in the NEC that says a piece of RESIDENTIAL computer equipment must be "listed" (NEC definition). Article 645 which requires a "listed" piece of equipment appears to apply to a computer room and not a residence. Basically I've been asked where its says a piece of computer equipment must listed/approved by a NRTL. I'm ignoring the obvious liability implications should someone get injured for the purposes of this question.. Any help is appreciated. Mike Morrow Senior Compliance Engineer Ucentric Systems, LLC 978-823-8166 mi...@ucentric.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: NEC Question/Observation
This is not yet prohibited by the code. Therefore I suppose agencies are somewhat obliged to approve a product provided it has the proper warnings. You can resolve the situation by moving the existing wiring into an additional box and provide a short length of new wire to the fixture's device box (note, you must make splices in a box). Some fixtures actually solve the problem by providing a wiring box at the end of a short pipe so it is cool enough for standard wiring. Recessed incandescent fixtures have always been a problem in this respect, especially with the advent of extra thick and loose attic insulation. Remember as well to pay attention to the recommended wattage rating for lamps or you can cook wires in a lot of fixtures, and if there's a little wafer of insulation between the fixture and the box, remember to leave it in place. Note that in many localities, a "qualified electrician" (= licensed) is required even to replace the fixture. Bob rbus...@es.com wrote: > During a recent re-model at home I decided to replace the ceiling lamp in > the dining room. Reading the instructions for the new lamp it stated: > > " Warning, light fixture to be connected to wiring rated 80 degrees C. Most > home older than 1985 will have 60 degree C wiring. Consult a qualified > electrician". > > I was surprised that 1) I could buy a common light assembly and not have it > correctly rated for the application, 2) a "qualified electrician was > required" and 3) I question what changes would be necessary to properly use > the light. Obviously you could run a new 80 degree C line, but this seems to > be a bit of an overkill. Is this REALLY what they are suggesting? I would > think that adequate thermal insulation between the fixture and the existing > wiring would be all that is required The fixture itself would have 80 degree > c wires. > > My apologies for submitting this national electrical code question, I > realize it is not generally applicable to the products generally discussed > on this list, but perhaps someone has some thoughts on it. > > Rick > rbus...@es.com > > - > This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. > To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the > quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, > j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or > roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
