Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 09:58, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> How does one tell the spindle to do one revolution at 0.5 rps and stop either 
> after one rev or when a sensor input is detected?  Given that I'm running the 
> MESA board in step/dir mode.

Presumably it is running in velocity mode?

Use a mux2 to switch between normal speed control and align speed
control (ie link in0 to spindle.0.speed and setp in1 to a small
number.
Operate the mux2 using a latch, set from a G-code digital and reset by
the index pulse:
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/man/man9/flipflop.9.html (I think
you would setp the data pin, pulse the clock low-to-high to enable the
mux, then let the index pulse reset it)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 24 November 2021 04:54:02 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Hi Gene,
> This doesn't answer my question.  .
>
> How does one tell the spindle to do one revolution at 0.5 rps and stop
> either after one rev or when a sensor input is detected?  Given that
> I'm running the MESA board in step/dir mode.

I would use the pulse you have as a both time reference and as a counter 
in the hal file, Start the counter at zero, until the count is one, and 
if thats not long enough, put in a oneshot to stretch it, or wait to 
stop at a count of 2. Running a stepper, the sudden stop might cause a 
step skip but at that slow a speed I doubt it. Use the end of the 
oneshot to rezero the counter for the next tool change.

Lowering the socket could be done gently, very low air pessure, while 
turning the spindle slowly until the socket drops onto the nut, 
reverseing the spindle for a few milliseconds to give it enough slack to 
fall all the way. then drive the stepper, turning everything until the 
lock pin drops in. tally that so you can start the unlock 2 turns. For 
locking, drive it the other way but use a oneshot to time it so the 
stepper cogs once and gets shut down. 

Rough outline, I've probably forgotten something.

> Thanks
> John
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> > Sent: November-23-21 7:44 PM
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> >
> > On Tuesday 23 November 2021 21:33:21 John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > Still wondering how I might make the spindle turn slowly and then
> > > stop on a sensor signal.  From the HAL file it's set up the same
> > > way as the XYZA axis with respect to step_type and control-type.
> > >
> > > I'd want to set the velocity to say 30 RPM (0.5 RPS) and during a
> > > revolution if it detects an input the motor is stopped.
> > >
> > > # SPINDLE Step Gen signals/setup
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirsetup[SPINDLE_9]DIRSETUP
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirhold [SPINDLE_9]DIRHOLD
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.steplen [SPINDLE_9]STEPLEN
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.stepspace   [SPINDLE_9]STEPSPACE
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.position-scale  [SPINDLE_9]STEP_SCALE
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.step_type   0
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.control-type1
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxaccel
> > > [SPINDLE_9]MAX_ACCELERATION setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxvel
> > >   [SPINDLE_9]MAX_VELOCITY
> > >
> > > net spindle-enable =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.enable
> > > net spindle-vel-cmd-rps =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.velocity-cmd
> >
> > For that sort of accuracy, put high rez a/b encoder on the motor
> > armature, but get the index from a hall effect watching the socket.
> > That will pretty much do away with quantization noise and will let
> > you set the stopped point to a small fraction of a degree.
> >
> > Or use that stepper with at least a 10x geardown if it has enough
> > twisting power.  Or a stepper with a 90 degree worm drive. I have
> > one of the small ones with a 5/1 worm that might be able to do my
> > g0704 with a 3NM nema23 on it. But they make that one at much higher
> > ratios than this 5/1.  There's also good looking plantary inline
> > reducers for nearly the same money that look stronger than a worm
> > drive.
> >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Gene,
This doesn't answer my question.  .

How does one tell the spindle to do one revolution at 0.5 rps and stop either 
after one rev or when a sensor input is detected?  Given that I'm running the 
MESA board in step/dir mode.

Thanks
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: November-23-21 7:44 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> On Tuesday 23 November 2021 21:33:21 John Dammeyer wrote:
> 
> > Still wondering how I might make the spindle turn slowly and then stop
> > on a sensor signal.  From the HAL file it's set up the same way as the
> > XYZA axis with respect to step_type and control-type.
> >
> > I'd want to set the velocity to say 30 RPM (0.5 RPS) and during a
> > revolution if it detects an input the motor is stopped.
> >
> > # SPINDLE Step Gen signals/setup
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirsetup[SPINDLE_9]DIRSETUP
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirhold [SPINDLE_9]DIRHOLD
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.steplen [SPINDLE_9]STEPLEN
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.stepspace   [SPINDLE_9]STEPSPACE
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.position-scale  [SPINDLE_9]STEP_SCALE
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.step_type   0
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.control-type1
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxaccel
> > [SPINDLE_9]MAX_ACCELERATION setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxvel
> >   [SPINDLE_9]MAX_VELOCITY
> >
> > net spindle-enable =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.enable
> > net spindle-vel-cmd-rps =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.velocity-cmd
> >
> For that sort of accuracy, put high rez a/b encoder on the motor
> armature, but get the index from a hall effect watching the socket. That
> will pretty much do away with quantization noise and will let you set
> the stopped point to a small fraction of a degree.
> 
> Or use that stepper with at least a 10x geardown if it has enough
> twisting power.  Or a stepper with a 90 degree worm drive. I have one of
> the small ones with a 5/1 worm that might be able to do my g0704 with a
> 3NM nema23 on it. But they make that one at much higher ratios than this
> 5/1.  There's also good looking plantary inline reducers for nearly the
> same money that look stronger than a worm drive.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> 
> 
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 23 November 2021 21:33:21 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Still wondering how I might make the spindle turn slowly and then stop
> on a sensor signal.  From the HAL file it's set up the same way as the
> XYZA axis with respect to step_type and control-type.
>
> I'd want to set the velocity to say 30 RPM (0.5 RPS) and during a
> revolution if it detects an input the motor is stopped.
>
> # SPINDLE Step Gen signals/setup
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirsetup[SPINDLE_9]DIRSETUP
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirhold [SPINDLE_9]DIRHOLD
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.steplen [SPINDLE_9]STEPLEN
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.stepspace   [SPINDLE_9]STEPSPACE
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.position-scale  [SPINDLE_9]STEP_SCALE
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.step_type   0
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.control-type1
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxaccel   
> [SPINDLE_9]MAX_ACCELERATION setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxvel   
>   [SPINDLE_9]MAX_VELOCITY
>
> net spindle-enable =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.enable
> net spindle-vel-cmd-rps =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.velocity-cmd
>
For that sort of accuracy, put high rez a/b encoder on the motor 
armature, but get the index from a hall effect watching the socket. That 
will pretty much do away with quantization noise and will let you set 
the stopped point to a small fraction of a degree.

Or use that stepper with at least a 10x geardown if it has enough 
twisting power.  Or a stepper with a 90 degree worm drive. I have one of 
the small ones with a 5/1 worm that might be able to do my g0704 with a 
3NM nema23 on it. But they make that one at much higher ratios than this 
5/1.  There's also good looking plantary inline reducers for nearly the 
same money that look stronger than a worm drive.
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

Still wondering how I might make the spindle turn slowly and then stop on a 
sensor signal.  From the HAL file it's set up the same way as the XYZA axis 
with respect to step_type and control-type.  

I'd want to set the velocity to say 30 RPM (0.5 RPS) and during a revolution if 
it detects an input the motor is stopped.

# SPINDLE Step Gen signals/setup
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirsetup[SPINDLE_9]DIRSETUP
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirhold [SPINDLE_9]DIRHOLD
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.steplen [SPINDLE_9]STEPLEN
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.stepspace   [SPINDLE_9]STEPSPACE
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.position-scale  [SPINDLE_9]STEP_SCALE
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.step_type   0
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.control-type1
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxaccel[SPINDLE_9]MAX_ACCELERATION
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxvel  [SPINDLE_9]MAX_VELOCITY

net spindle-enable =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.enable
net spindle-vel-cmd-rps =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.velocity-cmd





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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

Not this one.

> -Original Message-
> From: Thaddeus Waldner [mailto:thadw...@gmail.com]
> Sent: November-23-21 12:01 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> Some of those hammers have a thru-hole for pinning the socket.
> 
> > On Nov 23, 2021, at 1:14 PM, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> >
> > I've ordered a retaining ring set for it.  May help.  The socket has a 
> > recess for this ring to expand into but at the moment it almost
> falls out by itself.  The wrench is 10 years old and although not used during 
> that period the rubber had likely hardened and is no
> longer providing the spring action.
> >
> > You can see in the photo that I've used the Dremel to create a dimple for 
> > the retaining screw that is in the side of the socket.
> However it loosens with the impact driver vibration.  I don't have room to 
> put in a locking set screw and it's too early for Loctite.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> >> Sent: November-23-21 4:04 AM
> >> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> >>
> >> On Tuesday 23 November 2021 02:47:59 andy pugh wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 01:05, John Dammeyer 
> >> wrote:
> >>>>  Likely why the set screw works loose after a number of cycles.
> >>>
> >>> I am surprised that the air wrench doesn't have the usual ball-detente
> >>> to retain the socket.
> >>
> >> I have seen some that utilize a spring encircling the end of the driver
> >> square, and it works moderately well, with sockets made with an internal
> >> cutaway at the bottom of the square well.
> >>
> >> But we haven't seen a pix of his setup w/o the socket.
> >>
> >> Satire intended: Thats I think to encourage the sales of sockets using
> >> that scheme, also convieniently made by the wrench peddlar of course.
> >>
> >> That could be Johns problem. In that case John, you may be able to
> >> machine the socket or better a new one to utilise that retainer method,
> >> but take care, too deep a groove and the socket may be stuck on forever.
> >> Show us a closeup pix with the socket removed.
> >>
> >> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> >> --
> >> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> >> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> >> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
> >> - Louis D. Brandeis
> >> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[Thaddeus Waldner]

Some of those hammers have a thru-hole for pinning the socket.

> On Nov 23, 2021, at 1:14 PM, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> I've ordered a retaining ring set for it.  May help.  The socket has a recess 
> for this ring to expand into but at the moment it almost falls out by itself. 
>  The wrench is 10 years old and although not used during that period the 
> rubber had likely hardened and is no longer providing the spring action.
> 
> You can see in the photo that I've used the Dremel to create a dimple for the 
> retaining screw that is in the side of the socket.  However it loosens with 
> the impact driver vibration.  I don't have room to put in a locking set screw 
> and it's too early for Loctite.
> 
> John
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
>> Sent: November-23-21 4:04 AM
>> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
>> 
>> On Tuesday 23 November 2021 02:47:59 andy pugh wrote:
>> 
>>> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 01:05, John Dammeyer 
>> wrote:
>>>>  Likely why the set screw works loose after a number of cycles.
>>> 
>>> I am surprised that the air wrench doesn't have the usual ball-detente
>>> to retain the socket.
>> 
>> I have seen some that utilize a spring encircling the end of the driver
>> square, and it works moderately well, with sockets made with an internal
>> cutaway at the bottom of the square well.
>> 
>> But we haven't seen a pix of his setup w/o the socket.
>> 
>> Satire intended: Thats I think to encourage the sales of sockets using
>> that scheme, also convieniently made by the wrench peddlar of course.
>> 
>> That could be Johns problem. In that case John, you may be able to
>> machine the socket or better a new one to utilise that retainer method,
>> but take care, too deep a groove and the socket may be stuck on forever.
>> Show us a closeup pix with the socket removed.
>> 
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
>> --
>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
>> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>> - Louis D. Brandeis
>> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
>> 
>> 
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 23 November 2021 14:14:23 John Dammeyer wrote:

> I've ordered a retaining ring set for it.  May help.  The socket has a
> recess for this ring to expand into but at the moment it almost falls
> out by itself.  The wrench is 10 years old and although not used
> during that period the rubber had likely hardened and is no longer
> providing the spring action.
>
> You can see in the photo that I've used the Dremel to create a dimple
> for the retaining screw that is in the side of the socket.  However it
> loosens with the impact driver vibration.  I don't have room to put in
> a locking set screw and it's too early for Loctite.

low profile setscrews can be stacked, using the top one to lock the 
bottom one. Works pretty good.

Take care John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

The socket doesn't have a groove and it's very heavy.  The wrench uses a 
retaining ring like in this video
https://youtu.be/8RmhBd1wcEA
but I don't think there's a rubber Oring underneath it.   
I'll report back once the 12 point arrives.  The 6 point is useless for the 
other reasons I've mentioned.
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: November-23-21 4:04 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> On Tuesday 23 November 2021 02:47:59 andy pugh wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 01:05, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> > >   Likely why the set screw works loose after a number of cycles.
> >
> > I am surprised that the air wrench doesn't have the usual ball-detente
> > to retain the socket.
> 
> I have seen some that utilize a spring encircling the end of the driver
> square, and it works moderately well, with sockets made with an internal
> cutaway at the bottom of the square well.
> 
> But we haven't seen a pix of his setup w/o the socket.
> 
> Satire intended: Thats I think to encourage the sales of sockets using
> that scheme, also convieniently made by the wrench peddlar of course.
> 
> That could be Johns problem. In that case John, you may be able to
> machine the socket or better a new one to utilise that retainer method,
> but take care, too deep a groove and the socket may be stuck on forever.
> Show us a closeup pix with the socket removed.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 23 November 2021 02:47:59 andy pugh wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 01:05, John Dammeyer  
wrote:
> >   Likely why the set screw works loose after a number of cycles.
>
> I am surprised that the air wrench doesn't have the usual ball-detente
> to retain the socket.

I have seen some that utilize a spring encircling the end of the driver 
square, and it works moderately well, with sockets made with an internal 
cutaway at the bottom of the square well. 

But we haven't seen a pix of his setup w/o the socket.

Satire intended: Thats I think to encourage the sales of sockets using 
that scheme, also convieniently made by the wrench peddlar of course. 

That could be Johns problem. In that case John, you may be able to 
machine the socket or better a new one to utilise that retainer method, 
but take care, too deep a groove and the socket may be stuck on forever. 
Show us a closeup pix with the socket removed.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> 
> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 01:05, John Dammeyer  wrote:
>   
> >   Likely why the set screw works loose after a number of cycles.
> 
> I am surprised that the air wrench doesn't have the usual ball-detente
> to retain the socket.
> 
> --
> atp

It has the standard clip ring with O-Ring underneath.  The Impact Socket is 
heavy, and doesn't have the standard dimples you see in a standard socket.   
Until I get the 12 point socket jury is out on all choices.  I suspect I'm 
going to go electric but one thing I want to try is an exponential PWM on the 
wrench.

Say I want a 1 second burp on the impact wrench.  That's 10x 100mS.  If each 
100mS was PWM where we start with 100mS then 90mS then 80mS etc.. we have a 
linear decay with a hard shove to break loose the torqued nut and then light 
PWM to move the motor slowly to unwind 2 turns or so.

It might need to be more logarithmic so the decay is much faster or the motor 
would again overspeed.  But hard impact to break it loose and then light PWM to 
turn it a tad.

Just a thought.  Won't be hard to program that test tomorrow sometime.

John




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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 01:05, John Dammeyer  wrote:

>   Likely why the set screw works loose after a number of cycles.

I am surprised that the air wrench doesn't have the usual ball-detente
to retain the socket.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

And therein lies the problem.  For your NMBT-30 quick change tooling you could 
just as easily set up wave washers and just press and release the draw bar as 
is done on so many of those instead of turning into the holder itself.  But it 
only requires one or two turns before that large cone is no longer held by 
friction.

Contrast that with .75" or so of the top of the R8 which is a sliding fit with 
supposedly 0.001" difference in diameter.  That requires a substantial push to 
release it compared with the NMBT-30 or TTS that require a push of 0.050" or so.

BTW, for fun I installed the 1/4" TTS held chuck and then manually brought the 
drawbar down with the air cyl.  Then spun the spindle up to 700 RPM on the AXIS 
display. Some LCNC content here...  8-).The airmotor in the wrench, 
although not lubricated with oily air at this point, spun without any issues.  
However it was visibly clear that the draw bar nut wasn't completely centered 
as the bottom of the socket wobbled ever so slightly, and at the top there was 
also ticking noise from the 3/8" socket connection since it wasn't spinning 
concentric with the impact wrench spindle.  Likely why the set screw works 
loose after a number of cycles.

 John



> From: John Figie [mailto:zephyr9...@gmail.com]
> Maybe I didn't fully answer your question. After the tool drops out. If the
> button is held the impact driver will just keep spinning like an unloaded
> impact wrench.
> 
> John
> 
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:57 PM John Figie  wrote:
> 
> > When the load or unload button is pressed the impact driver first moves
> > down and then starts impacting for as long as the button is pressed. I only
> > let it impact for about 1 or 2 seconds.
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:39 PM John Dammeyer 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> So far I'm well under the $974 of the R8 version although if I had to pay
> >> retail for the GIM controller I'm using then I'd be well over that.  So far
> >> I think I'm at about $200 Cdn.  plus I'm using one of the first prototype
> >> GIMs I build almost 10 years ago.
> >>
> >> https://www.kurtworkholding.com/product/kurt-bridgeport-series-i-std-2-j/
> >>
> >> What happens with yours if you pressed the unload button for 5 seconds?
> >> Obviously the tool would drop out.  But does anything else unscrew or
> >> require manual operations to put back?
> >>
> >>
> >> > -Original Message-
> >> > From: John Figie [mailto:zephyr9...@gmail.com]
> >> > Sent: November-22-21 2:30 PM
> >> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> >> >
> >> > Instead of a drawbar with a hex end you could use the kind with a spline
> >> > end like the ones that Kurt sells for their power drawbar. My Bridgeport
> >> > came with a Kurt power drawbar. I have had it since around 2003. Still
> >> > using the same drawbar. The socket looks kind of like a torx socket -
> >> maybe
> >> > it is - I never looked at it that close. The Kurt uses butterfly impact
> >> > kind of like yours. It just uses regulated air pressure. I just let it
> >> > drive the drawbar for about 1 or 2 seconds. It has never stripped and I
> >> > have never replaced the drawbar.  Tooling is NMTB 30. Home shop use
> >> only.
> >> >
> >> > http://www.machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
> >> >
> >> > John
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 3:39 PM John Dammeyer 
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hi Mathew,
> >> > > I want to be able to swap easily and quickly between R8 and TTS.
> >> Here's a
> >> > > selection of some of the tooling.
> >> > >
> >> > > http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/ToolSelection.jpg
> >> > >
> >> > >  There's a full set of R8 collets of course.  The spring loaded Tap
> >> Holder
> >> > > has a 3/4" shank so it really just needs a TTS collar to make it full
> >> TTS.
> >> > >   The two gear cutter arbours for the different sized cutters.  Face
> >> mill.
> >> > > Changing from a 1/4" drill bit means I have to swap out the TTS to
> >> install
> >> > > the R8 based expensive 16mm JT3 ball bearing chuck.
> >> > >
> >> > > To change completely over to TTS is expensive.  To change to a mill
> >> with a
> >> > > NMBT or CAT cone type is really expensive.   The lowe

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Figie]

Maybe I didn't fully answer your question. After the tool drops out. If the
button is held the impact driver will just keep spinning like an unloaded
impact wrench.

John

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:57 PM John Figie  wrote:

> When the load or unload button is pressed the impact driver first moves
> down and then starts impacting for as long as the button is pressed. I only
> let it impact for about 1 or 2 seconds.
>
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:39 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
>
>> So far I'm well under the $974 of the R8 version although if I had to pay
>> retail for the GIM controller I'm using then I'd be well over that.  So far
>> I think I'm at about $200 Cdn.  plus I'm using one of the first prototype
>> GIMs I build almost 10 years ago.
>>
>> https://www.kurtworkholding.com/product/kurt-bridgeport-series-i-std-2-j/
>>
>> What happens with yours if you pressed the unload button for 5 seconds?
>> Obviously the tool would drop out.  But does anything else unscrew or
>> require manual operations to put back?
>>
>>
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: John Figie [mailto:zephyr9...@gmail.com]
>> > Sent: November-22-21 2:30 PM
>> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
>> >
>> > Instead of a drawbar with a hex end you could use the kind with a spline
>> > end like the ones that Kurt sells for their power drawbar. My Bridgeport
>> > came with a Kurt power drawbar. I have had it since around 2003. Still
>> > using the same drawbar. The socket looks kind of like a torx socket -
>> maybe
>> > it is - I never looked at it that close. The Kurt uses butterfly impact
>> > kind of like yours. It just uses regulated air pressure. I just let it
>> > drive the drawbar for about 1 or 2 seconds. It has never stripped and I
>> > have never replaced the drawbar.  Tooling is NMTB 30. Home shop use
>> only.
>> >
>> > http://www.machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 3:39 PM John Dammeyer 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi Mathew,
>> > > I want to be able to swap easily and quickly between R8 and TTS.
>> Here's a
>> > > selection of some of the tooling.
>> > >
>> > > http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/ToolSelection.jpg
>> > >
>> > >  There's a full set of R8 collets of course.  The spring loaded Tap
>> Holder
>> > > has a 3/4" shank so it really just needs a TTS collar to make it full
>> TTS.
>> > >   The two gear cutter arbours for the different sized cutters.  Face
>> mill.
>> > > Changing from a 1/4" drill bit means I have to swap out the TTS to
>> install
>> > > the R8 based expensive 16mm JT3 ball bearing chuck.
>> > >
>> > > To change completely over to TTS is expensive.  To change to a mill
>> with a
>> > > NMBT or CAT cone type is really expensive.   The lowest cost power
>> toolbar
>> > > system was the butterfly wrench and air cylinder.  Cost escalated as
>> the
>> > > ordered electric pneumatic valves just never showed up from China so
>> I went
>> > > local.  Not really expensive but it adds up as do all the fittings.
>> > >
>> > > At this point I could see spending as much as $150 Cdn. for the
>> planetary
>> > > gear and stepper combination.Still way less expensive than fully
>> > > switching over to TTS which I probably will over time but not all in
>> one
>> > > shot.   And I'm not sure the TTS wouldn't slip with the 5/8" chuck
>> holding
>> > > a 1" reduced shank drill bit.
>> > >
>> > > First step now is to wait for the 12 point deep socket.
>> > >
>> > > John
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > -Original Message-
>> > > > From: Matthew Herd [mailto:herd.m...@gmail.com]
>> > > > Sent: November-22-21 10:49 AM
>> > > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
>> > > >
>> > > > Hi John,
>> > > >
>> > > > You don?t need pull studs on the R-8 collets, just thread the draw
>> bar
>> > > into the collet. Either until it stops or loctite the draw bar at
>> > > > the right depth. Then use a Belleville washer and air cylinder setup
>> > > like An

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Figie]

When the load or unload button is pressed the impact driver first moves
down and then starts impacting for as long as the button is pressed. I only
let it impact for about 1 or 2 seconds.

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:39 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

> So far I'm well under the $974 of the R8 version although if I had to pay
> retail for the GIM controller I'm using then I'd be well over that.  So far
> I think I'm at about $200 Cdn.  plus I'm using one of the first prototype
> GIMs I build almost 10 years ago.
>
> https://www.kurtworkholding.com/product/kurt-bridgeport-series-i-std-2-j/
>
> What happens with yours if you pressed the unload button for 5 seconds?
> Obviously the tool would drop out.  But does anything else unscrew or
> require manual operations to put back?
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: John Figie [mailto:zephyr9...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: November-22-21 2:30 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> >
> > Instead of a drawbar with a hex end you could use the kind with a spline
> > end like the ones that Kurt sells for their power drawbar. My Bridgeport
> > came with a Kurt power drawbar. I have had it since around 2003. Still
> > using the same drawbar. The socket looks kind of like a torx socket -
> maybe
> > it is - I never looked at it that close. The Kurt uses butterfly impact
> > kind of like yours. It just uses regulated air pressure. I just let it
> > drive the drawbar for about 1 or 2 seconds. It has never stripped and I
> > have never replaced the drawbar.  Tooling is NMTB 30. Home shop use only.
> >
> > http://www.machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 3:39 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Mathew,
> > > I want to be able to swap easily and quickly between R8 and TTS.
> Here's a
> > > selection of some of the tooling.
> > >
> > > http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/ToolSelection.jpg
> > >
> > >  There's a full set of R8 collets of course.  The spring loaded Tap
> Holder
> > > has a 3/4" shank so it really just needs a TTS collar to make it full
> TTS.
> > >   The two gear cutter arbours for the different sized cutters.  Face
> mill.
> > > Changing from a 1/4" drill bit means I have to swap out the TTS to
> install
> > > the R8 based expensive 16mm JT3 ball bearing chuck.
> > >
> > > To change completely over to TTS is expensive.  To change to a mill
> with a
> > > NMBT or CAT cone type is really expensive.   The lowest cost power
> toolbar
> > > system was the butterfly wrench and air cylinder.  Cost escalated as
> the
> > > ordered electric pneumatic valves just never showed up from China so I
> went
> > > local.  Not really expensive but it adds up as do all the fittings.
> > >
> > > At this point I could see spending as much as $150 Cdn. for the
> planetary
> > > gear and stepper combination.Still way less expensive than fully
> > > switching over to TTS which I probably will over time but not all in
> one
> > > shot.   And I'm not sure the TTS wouldn't slip with the 5/8" chuck
> holding
> > > a 1" reduced shank drill bit.
> > >
> > > First step now is to wait for the 12 point deep socket.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Matthew Herd [mailto:herd.m...@gmail.com]
> > > > Sent: November-22-21 10:49 AM
> > > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> > > >
> > > > Hi John,
> > > >
> > > > You don?t need pull studs on the R-8 collets, just thread the draw
> bar
> > > into the collet. Either until it stops or loctite the draw bar at
> > > > the right depth. Then use a Belleville washer and air cylinder setup
> > > like Andy?s.
> > > >
> > > > Matt
> > > >
> > > > > On Nov 22, 2021, at 1:32 PM, John Dammeyer  >
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ?It's the lowering of the wrench that I don't have a lot of control
> > > on.  It's pushed down hard enough to keep the draw bar on top of
> > > > the spindle so as it turns it pushes the sometimes a bit stiff R8 all
> > > the way down and out.  If it's allow to move upwards (or I haven't
> > > > locked the quill) then the drawbar may unthread but I then have to
> push
&g

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 22 November 2021 17:30:08 John Figie wrote:

> Instead of a drawbar with a hex end you could use the kind with a
> spline end like the ones that Kurt sells for their power drawbar. My
> Bridgeport came with a Kurt power drawbar. I have had it since around
> 2003. Still using the same drawbar. The socket looks kind of like a
> torx socket - maybe it is - I never looked at it that close. The Kurt
> uses butterfly impact kind of like yours. It just uses regulated air
> pressure. I just let it drive the drawbar for about 1 or 2 seconds. It
> has never stripped and I have never replaced the drawbar.  Tooling is
> NMTB 30. Home shop use only.
>
> http://www.machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
>
> John
>
Sweet machine John, wish I had room for one like it. 

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

So far I'm well under the $974 of the R8 version although if I had to pay 
retail for the GIM controller I'm using then I'd be well over that.  So far I 
think I'm at about $200 Cdn.  plus I'm using one of the first prototype GIMs I 
build almost 10 years ago.

https://www.kurtworkholding.com/product/kurt-bridgeport-series-i-std-2-j/

What happens with yours if you pressed the unload button for 5 seconds?  
Obviously the tool would drop out.  But does anything else unscrew or require 
manual operations to put back?


> -Original Message-
> From: John Figie [mailto:zephyr9...@gmail.com]
> Sent: November-22-21 2:30 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> Instead of a drawbar with a hex end you could use the kind with a spline
> end like the ones that Kurt sells for their power drawbar. My Bridgeport
> came with a Kurt power drawbar. I have had it since around 2003. Still
> using the same drawbar. The socket looks kind of like a torx socket - maybe
> it is - I never looked at it that close. The Kurt uses butterfly impact
> kind of like yours. It just uses regulated air pressure. I just let it
> drive the drawbar for about 1 or 2 seconds. It has never stripped and I
> have never replaced the drawbar.  Tooling is NMTB 30. Home shop use only.
> 
> http://www.machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
> 
> John
> 
> 
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 3:39 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> > Hi Mathew,
> > I want to be able to swap easily and quickly between R8 and TTS.  Here's a
> > selection of some of the tooling.
> >
> > http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/ToolSelection.jpg
> >
> >  There's a full set of R8 collets of course.  The spring loaded Tap Holder
> > has a 3/4" shank so it really just needs a TTS collar to make it full TTS.
> >   The two gear cutter arbours for the different sized cutters.  Face mill.
> > Changing from a 1/4" drill bit means I have to swap out the TTS to install
> > the R8 based expensive 16mm JT3 ball bearing chuck.
> >
> > To change completely over to TTS is expensive.  To change to a mill with a
> > NMBT or CAT cone type is really expensive.   The lowest cost power toolbar
> > system was the butterfly wrench and air cylinder.  Cost escalated as the
> > ordered electric pneumatic valves just never showed up from China so I went
> > local.  Not really expensive but it adds up as do all the fittings.
> >
> > At this point I could see spending as much as $150 Cdn. for the planetary
> > gear and stepper combination.Still way less expensive than fully
> > switching over to TTS which I probably will over time but not all in one
> > shot.   And I'm not sure the TTS wouldn't slip with the 5/8" chuck holding
> > a 1" reduced shank drill bit.
> >
> > First step now is to wait for the 12 point deep socket.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Matthew Herd [mailto:herd.m...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: November-22-21 10:49 AM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> > >
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > You don?t need pull studs on the R-8 collets, just thread the draw bar
> > into the collet. Either until it stops or loctite the draw bar at
> > > the right depth. Then use a Belleville washer and air cylinder setup
> > like Andy?s.
> > >
> > > Matt
> > >
> > > > On Nov 22, 2021, at 1:32 PM, John Dammeyer 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ?It's the lowering of the wrench that I don't have a lot of control
> > on.  It's pushed down hard enough to keep the draw bar on top of
> > > the spindle so as it turns it pushes the sometimes a bit stiff R8 all
> > the way down and out.  If it's allow to move upwards (or I haven't
> > > locked the quill) then the drawbar may unthread but I then have to push
> > on the draw bar.
> > > >
> > > > A sensor on the Z down may be what has to happen.  Then repeated tries
> > with blipping the air wrench until it goes down all the
> > > way is an option.
> > > >
> > > > Making a draw bar from oil hardening steel and hardening the head a
> > bit so it doesn't get carved away and ends up more slippery
> > > might also be a requirement.
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> -Original Message-
> > > >> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > > >> Sent: November-22-21 5:41 AM
> > > >> To

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 22 November 2021 16:35:37 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Hi Mathew,
> I want to be able to swap easily and quickly between R8 and TTS. 
> Here's a selection of some of the tooling.
>
> http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/ToolSelection.jpg
>
I've quite a bit more than that John but not the variety. I do any 
slotting I need with EDM. Just as precise, slower too, but no smearing 
of the slot edges.

>  There's a full set of R8 collets of course.  The spring loaded Tap
> Holder has a 3/4" shank so it really just needs a TTS collar to make
> it full TTS.The two gear cutter arbors for the different sized
> cutters.  Face mill.  Changing from a 1/4" drill bit means I have to
> swap out the TTS to install the R8 based expensive 16mm JT3 ball
> bearing chuck.
>
> To change completely over to TTS is expensive.

And gets you slippery tool holding because its pure friction.

> To change to a mill 
> with a NMBT or CAT cone type is really expensive.   The lowest cost
> power toolbar system was the butterfly wrench and air cylinder.  Cost
> escalated as the ordered electric pneumatic valves just never showed
> up from China so I went local.  Not really expensive but it adds up as
> do all the fittings.
>
> At this point I could see spending as much as $150 Cdn. for the
> planetary gear and stepper combination.Still way less expensive
> than fully switching over to TTS which I probably will over time but
> not all in one shot.   And I'm not sure the TTS wouldn't slip with the
> 5/8" chuck holding a 1" reduced shank drill bit.

I'm sure it will if the mill has the cajones to turn a 1" bit at the 
recommended speed and feed per rev. The fix is a notch in the edge of an 
r8, fits the head of a 4mm cap screw installed in the chuck adapter 
shank.  That leaves the next weak point the pin that engages the slot in 
the side of the r8 to keep the r8 from slipping in the spindle. IMO 
thats too small to turn a 1" bit with. It will shear. The question is 
when, not if.
>
> First step now is to wait for the 12 point deep socket.
>
> John
[...]

Take care John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Figie]

Instead of a drawbar with a hex end you could use the kind with a spline
end like the ones that Kurt sells for their power drawbar. My Bridgeport
came with a Kurt power drawbar. I have had it since around 2003. Still
using the same drawbar. The socket looks kind of like a torx socket - maybe
it is - I never looked at it that close. The Kurt uses butterfly impact
kind of like yours. It just uses regulated air pressure. I just let it
drive the drawbar for about 1 or 2 seconds. It has never stripped and I
have never replaced the drawbar.  Tooling is NMTB 30. Home shop use only.

http://www.machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html

John


On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 3:39 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

> Hi Mathew,
> I want to be able to swap easily and quickly between R8 and TTS.  Here's a
> selection of some of the tooling.
>
> http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/ToolSelection.jpg
>
>  There's a full set of R8 collets of course.  The spring loaded Tap Holder
> has a 3/4" shank so it really just needs a TTS collar to make it full TTS.
>   The two gear cutter arbours for the different sized cutters.  Face mill.
> Changing from a 1/4" drill bit means I have to swap out the TTS to install
> the R8 based expensive 16mm JT3 ball bearing chuck.
>
> To change completely over to TTS is expensive.  To change to a mill with a
> NMBT or CAT cone type is really expensive.   The lowest cost power toolbar
> system was the butterfly wrench and air cylinder.  Cost escalated as the
> ordered electric pneumatic valves just never showed up from China so I went
> local.  Not really expensive but it adds up as do all the fittings.
>
> At this point I could see spending as much as $150 Cdn. for the planetary
> gear and stepper combination.Still way less expensive than fully
> switching over to TTS which I probably will over time but not all in one
> shot.   And I'm not sure the TTS wouldn't slip with the 5/8" chuck holding
> a 1" reduced shank drill bit.
>
> First step now is to wait for the 12 point deep socket.
>
> John
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Matthew Herd [mailto:herd.m...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: November-22-21 10:49 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > You don�t need pull studs on the R-8 collets, just thread the draw bar
> into the collet. Either until it stops or loctite the draw bar at
> > the right depth. Then use a Belleville washer and air cylinder setup
> like Andy�s.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > > On Nov 22, 2021, at 1:32 PM, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?It's the lowering of the wrench that I don't have a lot of control
> on.  It's pushed down hard enough to keep the draw bar on top of
> > the spindle so as it turns it pushes the sometimes a bit stiff R8 all
> the way down and out.  If it's allow to move upwards (or I haven't
> > locked the quill) then the drawbar may unthread but I then have to push
> on the draw bar.
> > >
> > > A sensor on the Z down may be what has to happen.  Then repeated tries
> with blipping the air wrench until it goes down all the
> > way is an option.
> > >
> > > Making a draw bar from oil hardening steel and hardening the head a
> bit so it doesn't get carved away and ends up more slippery
> > might also be a requirement.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > >> Sent: November-22-21 5:41 AM
> > >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> > >>
> > >>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 08:03, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.
> And since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the
> > >> sensing has to happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex
> head is at a known position.
> > >>
> > >> How about:
> > >>
> > >> Lower the wrench, but don't turn it on.
> > >> Rotate the spindle until the wrench drops down to the "engaged" height
> > >> (sensor on the slide)
> > >> Then operate the wrench.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> atp
> > >> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > >> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > >> lunatics."
> > >> ? George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Mathew,
I want to be able to swap easily and quickly between R8 and TTS.  Here's a 
selection of some of the tooling. 

http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/ToolSelection.jpg

 There's a full set of R8 collets of course.  The spring loaded Tap Holder has 
a 3/4" shank so it really just needs a TTS collar to make it full TTS.The 
two gear cutter arbours for the different sized cutters.  Face mill.  Changing 
from a 1/4" drill bit means I have to swap out the TTS to install the R8 based 
expensive 16mm JT3 ball bearing chuck.

To change completely over to TTS is expensive.  To change to a mill with a NMBT 
or CAT cone type is really expensive.   The lowest cost power toolbar system 
was the butterfly wrench and air cylinder.  Cost escalated as the ordered 
electric pneumatic valves just never showed up from China so I went local.  Not 
really expensive but it adds up as do all the fittings.

At this point I could see spending as much as $150 Cdn. for the planetary gear 
and stepper combination.Still way less expensive than fully switching over 
to TTS which I probably will over time but not all in one shot.   And I'm not 
sure the TTS wouldn't slip with the 5/8" chuck holding a 1" reduced shank drill 
bit.

First step now is to wait for the 12 point deep socket.  

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Matthew Herd [mailto:herd.m...@gmail.com]
> Sent: November-22-21 10:49 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> You don�t need pull studs on the R-8 collets, just thread the draw bar into 
> the collet. Either until it stops or loctite the draw bar at
> the right depth. Then use a Belleville washer and air cylinder setup like 
> Andy�s.
> 
> Matt
> 
> > On Nov 22, 2021, at 1:32 PM, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> >
> > ?It's the lowering of the wrench that I don't have a lot of control on.  
> > It's pushed down hard enough to keep the draw bar on top of
> the spindle so as it turns it pushes the sometimes a bit stiff R8 all the way 
> down and out.  If it's allow to move upwards (or I haven't
> locked the quill) then the drawbar may unthread but I then have to push on 
> the draw bar.
> >
> > A sensor on the Z down may be what has to happen.  Then repeated tries with 
> > blipping the air wrench until it goes down all the
> way is an option.
> >
> > Making a draw bar from oil hardening steel and hardening the head a bit so 
> > it doesn't get carved away and ends up more slippery
> might also be a requirement.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: November-22-21 5:41 AM
> >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> >>
> >>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 08:03, John Dammeyer  
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.  And 
> >>> since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the
> >> sensing has to happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head 
> >> is at a known position.
> >>
> >> How about:
> >>
> >> Lower the wrench, but don't turn it on.
> >> Rotate the spindle until the wrench drops down to the "engaged" height
> >> (sensor on the slide)
> >> Then operate the wrench.
> >>
> >> --
> >> atp
> >> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> >> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> >> lunatics."
> >> ? George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[Matthew Herd]

Hi John,

You don’t need pull studs on the R-8 collets, just thread the draw bar into the 
collet. Either until it stops or loctite the draw bar at the right depth. Then 
use a Belleville washer and air cylinder setup like Andy’s. 

Matt

> On Nov 22, 2021, at 1:32 PM, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> It's the lowering of the wrench that I don't have a lot of control on.  It's 
> pushed down hard enough to keep the draw bar on top of the spindle so as it 
> turns it pushes the sometimes a bit stiff R8 all the way down and out.  If 
> it's allow to move upwards (or I haven't locked the quill) then the drawbar 
> may unthread but I then have to push on the draw bar.
> 
> A sensor on the Z down may be what has to happen.  Then repeated tries with 
> blipping the air wrench until it goes down all the way is an option.  
> 
> Making a draw bar from oil hardening steel and hardening the head a bit so it 
> doesn't get carved away and ends up more slippery might also be a requirement.
> 
> John
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: November-22-21 5:41 AM
>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
>> 
>>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 08:03, John Dammeyer  wrote:
>>> 
>>> One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.  And 
>>> since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the
>> sensing has to happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head 
>> is at a known position.
>> 
>> How about:
>> 
>> Lower the wrench, but don't turn it on.
>> Rotate the spindle until the wrench drops down to the "engaged" height
>> (sensor on the slide)
>> Then operate the wrench.
>> 
>> --
>> atp
>> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
>> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
>> lunatics."
>> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

It's the lowering of the wrench that I don't have a lot of control on.  It's 
pushed down hard enough to keep the draw bar on top of the spindle so as it 
turns it pushes the sometimes a bit stiff R8 all the way down and out.  If it's 
allow to move upwards (or I haven't locked the quill) then the drawbar may 
unthread but I then have to push on the draw bar.

A sensor on the Z down may be what has to happen.  Then repeated tries with 
blipping the air wrench until it goes down all the way is an option.  

Making a draw bar from oil hardening steel and hardening the head a bit so it 
doesn't get carved away and ends up more slippery might also be a requirement.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: November-22-21 5:41 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 08:03, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> > One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.  And 
> > since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the
> sensing has to happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head is 
> at a known position.
> 
> How about:
> 
> Lower the wrench, but don't turn it on.
> Rotate the spindle until the wrench drops down to the "engaged" height
> (sensor on the slide)
> Then operate the wrench.
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Sam Sokolik [mailto:samco...@gmail.com]
> 
> Can you backdrive the impact wrench?  Keep it engaged?
> 
At the moment the loudest part of my system is the splined spindle shaft 
rattling in the splined pulley drive.  Especially with light cuts or not 
engaged.  Really quite annoying.  Once fully loaded it doesn't rattle of 
course.  But cheap far east mill design or construction has created one issue 
that ultimately I'd like to fix but that would remove the ability to have the 
quill go up and down for manual operations.

A permanent connection between socket and draw bar given that it's not a tight 
fit either would add secondary rattle.  Even more annoying. 

And I'm not sure if the impact wrench could handle that.

BTW, I took apart the old impact driver and the planetary gearbox inside is 
really nice.  Also with a 12V supply that immediately current limited at 3A it 
turned slowly.  So with a big enough 12V supply the old impact driver could be 
put into service.  Not sure how well the hex driver to 3/8" socket would last 
but that's a potential spot for an encoder disk too.

Need to think about this for a day or so.
John




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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

The problem is the air wrench turns freely unlike the electric impact wrenches. 
 So if it even just drops on the wrong point it then stays there and tracks the 
spindle turning.  Been there.  Tried that.  
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: November-22-21 7:06 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> On Monday 22 November 2021 07:01:27 Roland Jollivet wrote:
> 
> > You probably don't need more than 1 bar on the lifting air cylinder,
> > up or down. No need to force it down.
> > So let it down, then if you can give the spindle a 1RPM burst to let
> > the nut slip over.
> > And have a switch on driver Z to know if it's down over the nut.
> >
> > You could also stop the spindle and descend the driver as the spindle
> > reaches it's last 5RPM? before stopping.
> 
> With my spindle, it would be stopped before it dropped a mm BUT rig a
> lever to push the lock pin AND have the motor running at gear change
> speeds. The wrench would fall, pressing on the lock pin, put half a bar
> down pressure one second after initiating the move, the spindle would
> match the nut and the socket falls over it. At that point it all turns
> until the lock pin falls into the hole which would close the engaged
> switch telling linuxcnc to stop the spindle, the wrench is in position
> to initiate the unlock. bring in the carousel, do the unlock, terminate
> the unlock on the second pulse from the magnet. The tool should drop
> into the waiting carousel pocket it came out of. Raise the head for
> clearance to turn the carousel, turn it to the selected tool, drop the
> head onto that tool and drive the air motor in the oposite direction
> long enough to get a good grip on the tool. raise the head, get the
> carousel out of the way and lift the air motor and socket back off the
> nut, releasing the lock pin. Give it a second to hit the upper stop, and
> let linuxcnc restart full spindle control.  No spindle to nut
> positioning needed. M6 t# is done. Most of it is sequenced by classic
> ladder code. restart the spindle in creep speed fwd to release the pin
> and nut at the end of the lockup. Tally switch the upper stop to let
> linuxcnc know its safe to TLO measure this tool, spin up the spindle and
> get back to work.  Whats not to like?
> 
> > Roland
> >
> > On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:03, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> > > > From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> > > >
> > > > On 11/21/21 9:24 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > > > Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the
> > > > > index
> > >
> > > and stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like
> > >
> > > > decelerate to 0.5 rev per second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when
> > > > the
> > >
> > > index happens?  With either an M5 or the button on the
> > >
> > > > user interface?
> > > >
> > > > If I were? doing that? today I would use 3 sensors. IOW a guard
> > > > sensor either side of index, rotate quickly to detection of guard
> > > > slow way down and search for the central sensor. How you know
> > > > which is the shortest path is left as an exercise for the
> > > > "student". ;-) Or maybe one simply defaults to searching in one
> > > > direction.
> > > >
> > > > If you don't need orientation then a stepper motor and a gear
> > > > would seem to be as simplistic as one can get.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > >
> > > One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.
> > > And since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the
> > > sensing has to happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until
> > > hex head is at a known position.  Then rotate socket from and
> > > indexed position until it matches the socket and then send it down.
> > > This could all happen in under 100mS and be almost transparent to an
> > > end user.
> > >
> > > There are times where I wish I had BMT-30 cone type tooling or just
> > > only TTS.
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

First of all.  Way cool video.  Thanks for that link.  Didn't even speed 
through it.

A pull stud on R8 tools.  Interesting concept.  Not sure there's room inside 
the spindle for that.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Matthew Herd [mailto:herd.m...@gmail.com]
> Sent: November-22-21 4:15 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> What about a custom draw bar with an Andy Pugh style air cylinder release?  
> Seems simpler to engineer the mechanism than do all
> this control. Just have a drawbar that�s normally retracted with a flange. 
> Engage the flange with a mechanism on an air cylinder to
> release.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mZWQvq-X7DQ
> 
> I think you could probably adapt the idea without the need to make your own 
> air cylinder, but the idea is sound.  No need to invent
> pull studs or pull stud fingers either. Just thread the other end of the draw 
> bar into the collet. Preferably with some Loctite or a
> similar solution.
> 
> Matt
> 
> >
> > On Nov 22, 2021, at 7:06 AM, Roland Jollivet  
> > wrote:
> >
> > ?You probably don't need more than 1 bar on the lifting air cylinder, up or
> > down. No need to force it down.
> > So let it down, then if you can give the spindle a 1RPM burst to let the
> > nut slip over.
> > And have a switch on driver Z to know if it's down over the nut.
> >
> > You could also stop the spindle and descend the driver as the spindle
> > reaches it's last 5RPM? before stopping.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[Sam Sokolik]

Can you backdrive the impact wrench?  Keep it engaged?

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:45 AM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> Thanks Roland,
> What I've found is that once the socket has reached that midpoint between
> flats it sticks there.  Rounding off the edges of the inside didn't fix it
> but did help.  I can even shut off the air so I can pull it down slowly
> against the return spring pressure and turn the spindle carefully by hand
> and I can still make it stick in that one area.
>
> The problem with turning the spindle is that the socket spins freely in
> the wrench so even the slightest bit of friction once it touches the nut
> causes it to turn with the spindle.  I tried 1RPM all the way up to 30RPM
> and it didn't matter.  The rounding of the nut and socket means 50% of the
> time it works perfectly and the other 50% sticks.
>
> Also if my set screw is too loose then on the way up the socket pulls
> out.  And the set screw loosens after about 10 cylces.  Hardened metal
> against hardened metal doesn't work well.  A softer screw didn't work much
> better.  Way to much rattle on the socket/driver connection.
>
> I never thought I'd have this much trouble...
> John
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Roland Jollivet [mailto:roland.jolli...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: November-22-21 4:01 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> >
> > You probably don't need more than 1 bar on the lifting air cylinder, up
> or
> > down. No need to force it down.
> > So let it down, then if you can give the spindle a 1RPM burst to let the
> > nut slip over.
> > And have a switch on driver Z to know if it's down over the nut.
> >
> > You could also stop the spindle and descend the driver as the spindle
> > reaches it's last 5RPM? before stopping.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:03, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> > > > On 11/21/21 9:24 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > > > Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the index
> > > and stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like
> > > > decelerate to 0.5 rev per second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when
> the
> > > index happens?  With either an M5 or the button on the
> > > > user interface?
> > > > >
> > > > If I were? doing that? today I would use 3 sensors. IOW a guard
> sensor
> > > > either side of index, rotate quickly to detection of guard slow way
> down
> > > > and search for the central sensor. How you know which is the shortest
> > > > path is left as an exercise for the "student". ;-) Or maybe one
> simply
> > > > defaults to searching in one direction.
> > > >
> > > > If you don't need orientation then a stepper motor and a gear would
> seem
> > > > to be as simplistic as one can get.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > >
> > > One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.
> And
> > > since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the sensing
> has to
> > > happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head is at a
> known
> > > position.  Then rotate socket from and indexed position until it
> matches
> > > the socket and then send it down.  This could all happen in under
> 100mS and
> > > be almost transparent to an end user.
> > >
> > > There are times where I wish I had BMT-30 cone type tooling or just
> only
> > > TTS.
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
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>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

Thanks Roland,
What I've found is that once the socket has reached that midpoint between flats 
it sticks there.  Rounding off the edges of the inside didn't fix it but did 
help.  I can even shut off the air so I can pull it down slowly against the 
return spring pressure and turn the spindle carefully by hand and I can still 
make it stick in that one area.

The problem with turning the spindle is that the socket spins freely in the 
wrench so even the slightest bit of friction once it touches the nut causes it 
to turn with the spindle.  I tried 1RPM all the way up to 30RPM and it didn't 
matter.  The rounding of the nut and socket means 50% of the time it works 
perfectly and the other 50% sticks.

Also if my set screw is too loose then on the way up the socket pulls out.  And 
the set screw loosens after about 10 cylces.  Hardened metal against hardened 
metal doesn't work well.  A softer screw didn't work much better.  Way to much 
rattle on the socket/driver connection.

I never thought I'd have this much trouble...
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Roland Jollivet [mailto:roland.jolli...@gmail.com]
> Sent: November-22-21 4:01 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> You probably don't need more than 1 bar on the lifting air cylinder, up or
> down. No need to force it down.
> So let it down, then if you can give the spindle a 1RPM burst to let the
> nut slip over.
> And have a switch on driver Z to know if it's down over the nut.
> 
> You could also stop the spindle and descend the driver as the spindle
> reaches it's last 5RPM? before stopping.
> 
> Roland
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:03, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> >
> > > From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> > > On 11/21/21 9:24 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > > Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the index
> > and stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like
> > > decelerate to 0.5 rev per second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when the
> > index happens?  With either an M5 or the button on the
> > > user interface?
> > > >
> > > If I were? doing that? today I would use 3 sensors. IOW a guard sensor
> > > either side of index, rotate quickly to detection of guard slow way down
> > > and search for the central sensor. How you know which is the shortest
> > > path is left as an exercise for the "student". ;-) Or maybe one simply
> > > defaults to searching in one direction.
> > >
> > > If you don't need orientation then a stepper motor and a gear would seem
> > > to be as simplistic as one can get.
> > >
> > > Dave
> >
> > One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.  And
> > since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the sensing has to
> > happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head is at a known
> > position.  Then rotate socket from and indexed position until it matches
> > the socket and then send it down.  This could all happen in under 100mS and
> > be almost transparent to an end user.
> >
> > There are times where I wish I had BMT-30 cone type tooling or just only
> > TTS.
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 22 November 2021 07:01:27 Roland Jollivet wrote:

> You probably don't need more than 1 bar on the lifting air cylinder,
> up or down. No need to force it down.
> So let it down, then if you can give the spindle a 1RPM burst to let
> the nut slip over.
> And have a switch on driver Z to know if it's down over the nut.
>
> You could also stop the spindle and descend the driver as the spindle
> reaches it's last 5RPM? before stopping.

With my spindle, it would be stopped before it dropped a mm BUT rig a 
lever to push the lock pin AND have the motor running at gear change 
speeds. The wrench would fall, pressing on the lock pin, put half a bar 
down pressure one second after initiating the move, the spindle would 
match the nut and the socket falls over it. At that point it all turns 
until the lock pin falls into the hole which would close the engaged 
switch telling linuxcnc to stop the spindle, the wrench is in position 
to initiate the unlock. bring in the carousel, do the unlock, terminate 
the unlock on the second pulse from the magnet. The tool should drop 
into the waiting carousel pocket it came out of. Raise the head for 
clearance to turn the carousel, turn it to the selected tool, drop the 
head onto that tool and drive the air motor in the oposite direction 
long enough to get a good grip on the tool. raise the head, get the 
carousel out of the way and lift the air motor and socket back off the 
nut, releasing the lock pin. Give it a second to hit the upper stop, and 
let linuxcnc restart full spindle control.  No spindle to nut 
positioning needed. M6 t# is done. Most of it is sequenced by classic 
ladder code. restart the spindle in creep speed fwd to release the pin 
and nut at the end of the lockup. Tally switch the upper stop to let 
linuxcnc know its safe to TLO measure this tool, spin up the spindle and 
get back to work.  Whats not to like?

> Roland
>
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:03, John Dammeyer  
wrote:
> > > From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> > >
> > > On 11/21/21 9:24 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > > Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the
> > > > index
> >
> > and stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like
> >
> > > decelerate to 0.5 rev per second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when
> > > the
> >
> > index happens?  With either an M5 or the button on the
> >
> > > user interface?
> > >
> > > If I were� doing that� today I would use 3 sensors. IOW a guard
> > > sensor either side of index, rotate quickly to detection of guard
> > > slow way down and search for the central sensor. How you know
> > > which is the shortest path is left as an exercise for the
> > > "student". ;-) Or maybe one simply defaults to searching in one
> > > direction.
> > >
> > > If you don't need orientation then a stepper motor and a gear
> > > would seem to be as simplistic as one can get.
> > >
> > > Dave
> >
> > One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar. 
> > And since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the
> > sensing has to happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until
> > hex head is at a known position.  Then rotate socket from and
> > indexed position until it matches the socket and then send it down. 
> > This could all happen in under 100mS and be almost transparent to an
> > end user.
> >
> > There are times where I wish I had BMT-30 cone type tooling or just
> > only TTS.
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
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-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 08:03, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.  And 
> since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the sensing has to 
> happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head is at a known 
> position.

How about:

Lower the wrench, but don't turn it on.
Rotate the spindle until the wrench drops down to the "engaged" height
(sensor on the slide)
Then operate the wrench.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[Matthew Herd]

What about a custom draw bar with an Andy Pugh style air cylinder release?  
Seems simpler to engineer the mechanism than do all this control. Just have a 
drawbar that’s normally retracted with a flange. Engage the flange with a 
mechanism on an air cylinder to release. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mZWQvq-X7DQ

I think you could probably adapt the idea without the need to make your own air 
cylinder, but the idea is sound.  No need to invent pull studs or pull stud 
fingers either. Just thread the other end of the draw bar into the collet. 
Preferably with some Loctite or a similar solution. 

Matt

> 
> On Nov 22, 2021, at 7:06 AM, Roland Jollivet  
> wrote:
> 
> You probably don't need more than 1 bar on the lifting air cylinder, up or
> down. No need to force it down.
> So let it down, then if you can give the spindle a 1RPM burst to let the
> nut slip over.
> And have a switch on driver Z to know if it's down over the nut.
> 
> You could also stop the spindle and descend the driver as the spindle
> reaches it's last 5RPM? before stopping.
> 
> Roland
> 

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[Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[Roland Jollivet]

You probably don't need more than 1 bar on the lifting air cylinder, up or
down. No need to force it down.
So let it down, then if you can give the spindle a 1RPM burst to let the
nut slip over.
And have a switch on driver Z to know if it's down over the nut.

You could also stop the spindle and descend the driver as the spindle
reaches it's last 5RPM? before stopping.

Roland



On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:03, John Dammeyer  wrote:

>
> > From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> > On 11/21/21 9:24 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the index
> and stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like
> > decelerate to 0.5 rev per second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when the
> index happens?  With either an M5 or the button on the
> > user interface?
> > >
> > If I were� doing that� today I would use 3 sensors. IOW a guard sensor
> > either side of index, rotate quickly to detection of guard slow way down
> > and search for the central sensor. How you know which is the shortest
> > path is left as an exercise for the "student". ;-) Or maybe one simply
> > defaults to searching in one direction.
> >
> > If you don't need orientation then a stepper motor and a gear would seem
> > to be as simplistic as one can get.
> >
> > Dave
>
> One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.  And
> since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the sensing has to
> happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head is at a known
> position.  Then rotate socket from and indexed position until it matches
> the socket and then send it down.  This could all happen in under 100mS and
> be almost transparent to an end user.
>
> There are times where I wish I had BMT-30 cone type tooling or just only
> TTS.
> John
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 22 November 2021 02:48:36 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > I assume you have a similar, fixed position spindle lock? I had to
> > make mine.
>
> Nope.  As a friend said the other day when I asked if he'd found a
> lock on his... "I use a big hammer on the supplied wrench to tighten
> or loosen it".  He's since carved a 3/4" hex head on his and is now
> using his electric impact driver manually.
>
> > Doing that twice, to position the socket as its comes down to fully
> > engage the drawbar should be doable with a dup of the same idea, but
> > since that needs to be done while its up, maybe a second ring and
> > magnet on the socket to make it work in the up position. That would
> > also give you the rotational tweek for free. The impact driver, with
> > a short 1/4" hex to 3/8" adapter should solve the socket dropping
> > problem too.
>
> Humans are funny creatures.  We do things so easily that are difficult
> for a machine.  So we reach up and place the 6 point socket over the
> draw bar.  If it doesn't go down right away we just angle/tilt/twist
> the driver a bit until it slips down and then we press the trigger.
>
> My air cylinder just rams down the driver and the 6 point socket and
> even with rounding of the inside edges of the socket it's still been
> scraping away metal on the nut.  It's not looking great at the moment
> at the attached photo shows.  Hence I'm waiting for the 12 point deep
> socket.  I don't have enough adjustment space for a normal length 12
> point and most of the 19mm sockets appear to only be 6 point for some
> reason.

Most of the 19's are 6 because they fit older spark plugs too.

Timed right, the 6 point would be easier on the bolt. On my little g0704, 
its a 10mm square but I'm using an 8 point socket, I haven't found a 4 
point, doubt they are even made. A 12 point would likely wipe the 
corners off. The adapter locks into the tool, and the ball bearing 
detent in the 4 point 1/4" adapter grabs the socket pretty firmly. I'd 
assume the 3/8" adapter would be more than adequate to hold even the 
heavier deep socket.

> If I had a magnet on the drawbar nut assembly (or reflective tape) I
> could rotate the spindle until I know where the one of the 6 flats is.

Humm... There is probably a random thread start for different collets, I 
have them (r8 collets) from at least 5 makers making the flat random 
even if tight.  To reliaby find it, I think you'd have to put glossy 
paint on a fresh bolt with polished flats and search for the peak 
reflectance off the gloss to nail it down accurately enough. Paint it 
all, any flat would do.  And a 12 point wouldn't wear the paint off the 
middle of the flat, so the paint ought to last a long time.  And I'd use 
a dark paint, its the glossy reflectance peak you want to search for. 
Glossy black would probably be best. Its the gloss you want to use as a 
mirror. Off axis glossy black is the best black there is. Back when we 
used tube color tv cameras, making a good black adjustment was the most 
precious adjustment, so we often cut the black velvet out of the center 
of a linearity stair step card, putting a curved partial spiral painted 
glossy black on the inside, on the back of the hole. The gloss made the 
light going into that spiral, it bounces back and forth in the spiral 
until it was absorbed totaly, making a true black hole. Light goes in 
and never comes back out. Hell of a thing to do to a $600 card (1990 
prices)

>  At that point if I had fine enough control over the drive unit I
> could turn the socket until the flats were reasonably lined up before
> I send the socket down.
>
> Yes.  I'm making  this overly complicated.  It's what I do.  I can't
> help myself.  You are allowed to laugh. John
>
And I am, but It's not at you, its with you I hope...
I'm the same way but since I'm a CET, its the electronics that get the 
attention. And folks don't always see the magic, its hidden behind the 
poorly finished mechanics. So go ahead, laugh at my stuff but it usually 
works well.

That sheldon has been rode hard and put away wet, 13 thou of bed wear 
right in front of the spindle, but thanks to linuxcnc, it still cuts a 
pretty good cylinder 36" long.

Cheers John, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

> From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> On 11/21/21 9:24 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the index and 
> > stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like
> decelerate to 0.5 rev per second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when the index 
> happens?  With either an M5 or the button on the
> user interface?
> >
> If I were� doing that� today I would use 3 sensors. IOW a guard sensor
> either side of index, rotate quickly to detection of guard slow way down
> and search for the central sensor. How you know which is the shortest
> path is left as an exercise for the "student". ;-) Or maybe one simply
> defaults to searching in one direction.
> 
> If you don't need orientation then a stepper motor and a gear would seem
> to be as simplistic as one can get.
> 
> Dave

One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.  And since 
it can be at any position relative to the spindle the sensing has to happen 
against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head is at a known position.  
Then rotate socket from and indexed position until it matches the socket and 
then send it down.  This could all happen in under 100mS and be almost 
transparent to an end user.

There are times where I wish I had BMT-30 cone type tooling or just only TTS.
John




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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

> I assume you have a similar, fixed position spindle lock? I had to make
> mine.

Nope.  As a friend said the other day when I asked if he'd found a lock on 
his... "I use a big hammer on the supplied wrench to tighten or loosen it".  
He's since carved a 3/4" hex head on his and is now using his electric impact 
driver manually.

> 
> Doing that twice, to position the socket as its comes down to fully
> engage the drawbar should be doable with a dup of the same idea, but
> since that needs to be done while its up, maybe a second ring and magnet
> on the socket to make it work in the up position. That would also give
> you the rotational tweek for free. The impact driver, with a short 1/4"
> hex to 3/8" adapter should solve the socket dropping problem too.

Humans are funny creatures.  We do things so easily that are difficult for a 
machine.  So we reach up and place the 6 point socket over the draw bar.  If it 
doesn't go down right away we just angle/tilt/twist the driver a bit until it 
slips down and then we press the trigger.

My air cylinder just rams down the driver and the 6 point socket and even with 
rounding of the inside edges of the socket it's still been scraping away metal 
on the nut.  It's not looking great at the moment at the attached photo shows.  
Hence I'm waiting for the 12 point deep socket.  I don't have enough adjustment 
space for a normal length 12 point and most of the 19mm sockets appear to only 
be 6 point for some reason.

If I had a magnet on the drawbar nut assembly (or reflective tape) I could 
rotate the spindle until I know where the one of the 6 flats is.  At that point 
if I had fine enough control over the drive unit I could turn the socket until 
the flats were reasonably lined up before I send the socket down.

Yes.  I'm making  this overly complicated.  It's what I do.  I can't help 
myself.  You are allowed to laugh.
John


> 
> Cheers John, Gene Heskett.
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[dave engvall]

On 11/21/21 9:24 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

I'm running my AC Servo spindle motor as step/dir and can easily tell LCNC to 
do 1 RPM.   I also have the quadrature encoder on it so I can do power tapping. 
 The drive is through the MESA 7i92H as one of the stepper channels as is the 
encoder signals.
  
Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the index and stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like decelerate to 0.5 rev per second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when the index happens?  With either an M5 or the button on the user interface?
  
I currently have acceleration/deceleration set high so it reverses quickly with power tapping.  Not to mention the ratio from motor to spindle isn't quite 1:1 because I didn't turn the pulleys exactly the same diameter or groove depth.  But on an M5 a deceleration to 30 RPM and then a complete stop on the index edge.
  
Thanks

John
Some of the '80 vintage Mazaks used a hydraulic cam to index the 
spindle. Fast and positive.
Stop the spindle, rotate with cam which locks orientation for tool 
change, change tool, get the cam clear of the drive pin, start spindle.


If I were  doing that  today I would use 3 sensors. IOW a guard sensor 
either side of index, rotate quickly to detection of guard slow way down 
and search for the central sensor. How you know which is the shortest 
path is left as an exercise for the "student". ;-) Or maybe one simply 
defaults to searching in one direction.


If you don't need orientation then a stepper motor and a gear would seem 
to be as simplistic as one can get.


Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 22 November 2021 00:24:40 John Dammeyer wrote:

> I'm running my AC Servo spindle motor as step/dir and can easily tell
> LCNC to do 1 RPM.   I also have the quadrature encoder on it so I can
> do power tapping.  The drive is through the MESA 7i92H as one of the
> stepper channels as is the encoder signals.
>
> Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the index
> and stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like
> decelerate to 0.5 rev per second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when the
> index happens?  With either an M5 or the button on the user interface?
>
> I currently have acceleration/deceleration set high so it reverses
> quickly with power tapping.  Not to mention the ratio from motor to
> spindle isn't quite 1:1 because I didn't turn the pulleys exactly the
> same diameter or groove depth.  But on an M5 a deceleration to 30 RPM
> and then a complete stop on the index edge.
>
> Thanks
> John
This is a separate problem, but it should be solvable even for me with a 
pwm-servo driving a 1 hp pmdc motor.

An expansion of what I'm doing when I reach up to change gears. I have a 
mux4 in the path to the pid with a limit3 between the output of the mux4 
and the pid to slow the speed change at reversal into a ramp that the z 
axis can follow without throwing a following error when rigid tapping.

The sel inputs come from 2 tally switches on the knob, so I have 2 of the 
4 selections determined by the tally switches, neither of which is true 
unless the knob is within 2 or 3 degrees of fully engaged. This gives 2 
positions of input selection on the mux4. So instead of zero volts on 
the other two inputs, a small setp runs the motor at about 30 or 40 
rpm's. There's no engagement ramps to speak of on those plastic gears 
and that means the gears are moving plenty slow enough to self mesh as I 
turn the knob and the spindle only returns to the set speed when the 
gears are fully engaged and that particular tally switch closes. Control 
of the motor is quite instant in human time, but I can have it turning 
1500 revs, wide open in low gear, reach up and turn the shift kbob, the 
motor is down to 40 revs in about 200 milliseconds, my wrist runs out of 
twist so I have to change grips to finish the shift, the gears remesh 
without stalling the knob and 200 milliseconds after it's home in high 
gear, the spindle is up to wide open at 3000 rpms.

I think I could put a counter in the hal that was zeroed on the index, 
use that to oneshot the the slow speed signal, and stop it on the next 
index pulse since in my case the index is an ats667 watching a steel pin 
on the drawbar retainer cap. So the index remains timed to the spindle 
and another mux changes the scale so the pyvcp tach always reads the 
spindles real speed. Yes, the scale change is independent from the index 
but thats self correcting on the next index, so theoreticly I could set 
both the socket and the spindle to any arbtrary position. One of them 
needs to be adjustable and since I lock the spindle with a spring loaded 
pin to change tools, its the socket that needs the tweek.

I still think the spring in the air motor thats making it overspin should 
be replaced with the impact screw tool since crowbaring its motor will 
be a considerably more precise stop without abusing a mechanical stop. 
More like hydraulics. The trigger replacement would be one of these:



at about $7 usd, drive it with both outputs of a pwmgen in mode 2.

I assume you have a similar, fixed position spindle lock? I had to make 
mine.

Doing that twice, to position the socket as its comes down to fully 
engage the drawbar should be doable with a dup of the same idea, but 
since that needs to be done while its up, maybe a second ring and magnet 
on the socket to make it work in the up position. That would also give 
you the rotational tweek for free. The 

[Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

[John Dammeyer]

I'm running my AC Servo spindle motor as step/dir and can easily tell LCNC to 
do 1 RPM.   I also have the quadrature encoder on it so I can do power tapping. 
 The drive is through the MESA 7i92H as one of the stepper channels as is the 
encoder signals.
 
Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the index and stop so 
it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like decelerate to 0.5 rev per 
second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when the index happens?  With either an M5 
or the button on the user interface?
 
I currently have acceleration/deceleration set high so it reverses quickly with 
power tapping.  Not to mention the ratio from motor to spindle isn't quite 1:1 
because I didn't turn the pulleys exactly the same diameter or groove depth.  
But on an M5 a deceleration to 30 RPM and then a complete stop on the index 
edge.
 
Thanks
John

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning in degrees

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Well, i think i will improve my pid to make it more accurate and then
continue with the tests.

About the range of the angular axis, if i use the index-enable pulse of the
mesa 5i20 encoder module (wich says that the position is reset to zero when
an index pulse has ocurred) for reset the counter to 0, could this be useful
to do that? also the counter in the gui will be reset to zero? or i have to
make a little of logical with hal to make this work?

Thanks again for your attention.

Regards.

Leonardo.

2009/11/22 Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com

 I haven't tried the ss-wrapped-rotary branch yet but I will shortly. It may
 do what you want in keeping the numbers between 0 - 360. That is the
 specific purpose for it.

 On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 4:55 AM, robert rob...@innovative-rc.com wrote:

 
   Well the thing that comes to my mind is to make something in hal and
 use
  the
   index pulse to reset the C axis to zero everytime the pulse is
 activated.
  So
   the axis count will go from 0 to 360 degree and then start all over
 again
   from 0.
  
   Well it's just an approach to what i'm trying to do, i really
 appreciate
   your help as always :) so correct me if i'm saying something wrong
  please.
  
 
  that is correct when you switch to C axis mode you will need to reset on
  the first index then go about getting into position
  you could keep clearing on index pulse as you say to give 0 - 360 or you
  can make it so you only reset count for the thirst turn in C axis mode
  then you can have unlimited number of degrees depends what you are
  looking to do.
 
  dont forget about the *pid.*/N/*.maxerrorI* to stop all that error
  windup from long spindle runs.
 
 
  good luck with your setup.
 
 
 
 
 
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 Of the few who listen, fewer still will understand,
 Understanding does not mean believe,
 Of the handful who believe, most may not know what to do,
 Those who even know, how many will actually do ?
 And the rare ones who have done it...
 Need not listen anymore.

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning in degrees

[robert]

 Well the thing that comes to my mind is to make something in hal and use the
 index pulse to reset the C axis to zero everytime the pulse is activated. So
 the axis count will go from 0 to 360 degree and then start all over again
 from 0.

 Well it's just an approach to what i'm trying to do, i really appreciate
 your help as always :) so correct me if i'm saying something wrong please.
   

that is correct when you switch to C axis mode you will need to reset on 
the first index then go about getting into position
you could keep clearing on index pulse as you say to give 0 - 360 or you 
can make it so you only reset count for the thirst turn in C axis mode 
then you can have unlimited number of degrees depends what you are 
looking to do.

dont forget about the *pid.*/N/*.maxerrorI* to stop all that error 
windup from long spindle runs.


good luck with your setup.



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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning in degrees

[Stuart Stevenson]

I haven't tried the ss-wrapped-rotary branch yet but I will shortly. It may
do what you want in keeping the numbers between 0 - 360. That is the
specific purpose for it.

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 4:55 AM, robert rob...@innovative-rc.com wrote:


  Well the thing that comes to my mind is to make something in hal and use
 the
  index pulse to reset the C axis to zero everytime the pulse is activated.
 So
  the axis count will go from 0 to 360 degree and then start all over again
  from 0.
 
  Well it's just an approach to what i'm trying to do, i really appreciate
  your help as always :) so correct me if i'm saying something wrong
 please.
 

 that is correct when you switch to C axis mode you will need to reset on
 the first index then go about getting into position
 you could keep clearing on index pulse as you say to give 0 - 360 or you
 can make it so you only reset count for the thirst turn in C axis mode
 then you can have unlimited number of degrees depends what you are
 looking to do.

 dont forget about the *pid.*/N/*.maxerrorI* to stop all that error
 windup from long spindle runs.


 good luck with your setup.




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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning in degrees

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Hello guys thanks for the attention,

I'm making tests with a telemecanique VFD that has the +/- 10 volt analog
input (as far as i know is a vectorial vfd but i don't know if it's the same
as a flux-vector), i tried both using as a spindle and as an axis, and
worked ok... i didn't tune quite well the pid since it was a rapid test so,
i had oscillation but, this is the main question that i have about the
spindle/axis switching:

When i tried to move the motor in axis mode with my hand, immediately the
motor turned in the oposite direction to stay in the position. So i'm
thinking in how i can make with hal the switching because if i use the
spindle the axis will refuse to lose its position so first the axis will try
to run against the spindle turning and if not i'll get a following error, so
that makes me think that i have to deactivate the axis during the spindle
work, but if i do that i lose the position of the axis so i have to make a
new homing sequence and  wich is not possible in auto mode and so on...

Well the thing that comes to my mind is to make something in hal and use the
index pulse to reset the C axis to zero everytime the pulse is activated. So
the axis count will go from 0 to 360 degree and then start all over again
from 0.

Well it's just an approach to what i'm trying to do, i really appreciate
your help as always :) so correct me if i'm saying something wrong please.

Best regards.

Leonardo.

2009/11/21 Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com

 On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Leonardo Marsaglia 
 leonardomarsagli...@gmail.com wrote:

  Hello guys, i've already asked something similar in the forum but this is
 a
  simpler..
 
  I read about the retrofit of the mazak that some of the guys made, and
 i'm
  making tests with an AC motor with a vfd and an encoder..
 
  So i was wondering if i can make the spindle turn and stop in a given
  angle?
 
 
  It would be could if i can make the spindle turn degree by degree, but i
  don't see a gcode to do that.
 
  I think most machines that position the spindle will reconfigure the
 system
 to use the spindle as a C axis. Then they can command the C axis angle for
 position.


  Well thanks in advance for your attention. :)
 
  Regards.
 
  Leonardo.
 
 
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[Emc-users] Spindle positioning in degrees

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Hello guys, i've already asked something similar in the forum but this is a
simpler..

I read about the retrofit of the mazak that some of the guys made, and i'm
making tests with an AC motor with a vfd and an encoder..

So i was wondering if i can make the spindle turn and stop in a given angle?


It would be could if i can make the spindle turn degree by degree, but i
don't see a gcode to do that.

Well thanks in advance for your attention. :)

Regards.

Leonardo.
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning in degrees

[Jon Elson]

Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
 So i was wondering if i can make the spindle turn and stop in a given angle?


 It would be could if i can make the spindle turn degree by degree, but i
 don't see a gcode to do that.
   
Some machines need to orient the spindle so that a tool changer can 
correctly
insert a toolholder.  That was what was needed on the Mazak.  So, it 
didn't need to
resist torques, just to deliver the spindle to that angle.  If you want 
to turn a spindle
to a specified angle, then it is a C axis, not a spindle.  Some 
machines, especially
lathes with live tooling do this.  I think it could be done with EMC 
with a little trickery
at the HAL level.  You would likely have a pair of custom G-codes that would
switch between spindle mode and C axis mode.  A standard VFD would not be
very good for this, as they get sluggish right near zero speed.  A 
flux-vector
VFD (which costs more) is designed for this kind of operation.

The HAL trickery is to make EMC not see spindle movement as C axis motion
when the spindle is running, and so spindle speed commands would 
control it
in that mode.  It would then connect the VFD to the C axis control for C 
axis
positioning mode.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning in degrees

[Stuart Stevenson]

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Leonardo Marsaglia 
leonardomarsagli...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello guys, i've already asked something similar in the forum but this is a
 simpler..

 I read about the retrofit of the mazak that some of the guys made, and i'm
 making tests with an AC motor with a vfd and an encoder..

 So i was wondering if i can make the spindle turn and stop in a given
 angle?


 It would be could if i can make the spindle turn degree by degree, but i
 don't see a gcode to do that.

 I think most machines that position the spindle will reconfigure the system
to use the spindle as a C axis. Then they can command the C axis angle for
position.


 Well thanks in advance for your attention. :)

 Regards.

 Leonardo.

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And the rare ones who have done it...
Need not listen anymore.

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