subject:"\[Emc\-users\] Commutating Reactor"

Yesterday I made some parts and had a giant fan on the drive to see if 
it is a cooling problem. After about an hour or so the drive tripped 
out. I forgot to mention that the only thing moving during these faults 
is the Z axis and it is moving up ie the most loaded direction. Of 
course I can make it trip out with S6000 M3 so it does point to the 
infeed unit. I checked the internal cooling fan on the drives and they 
all are running. After the fault I reset the drive and continued to 
finish the last 5 parts without a fault. When it is about to fault out 
on a rapid Z up move I can hear a change in the tone of the Z servo and 
it starts to grunt for lack of a better word to describe the sound.

The 600vdc buss is well protected as well as all the parts of the drive 
system. By the time I could get it open on the bench any hot part would 
be cool.

I'll check the AC ripple today when I make some parts.

John

On 6/3/2012 1:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
 John Thornton wrote:
 Currently with the 10hp idler and the Samson lathe running as a second
 idler and the 611 in the BP 308 on I have the voltage balanced at 245
 between all three phases give or take one volt. The VMC will make parts
 and run at 2k with full rapid speeds or ramp up with G code to 6k and
 run about an hour or so before the drive trips out. Turning off
 everything for a while and whatever caused the trip seems to mend
 itself. So now I'm thinking that there might be an actual problem in the
 infeed unit because once it starts to trip out if I reset the machine
 and start running again it trips out real fast.


 Ah HA!  Something is getting hot, most likely.  So, it takes an hour to
 heat up?
 That suggests something massive, or possibly with a poor heat sink.
 It is dangerous to work around inside the machine with 600 V DC in there.
 Can you borrow a thermal camera?  otherwise, you'll need to power down
 and wait for the caps to drain, and then feel for anything getting hot.
 One other possibility is if it takes an hour to heat up, a modest fan might
 keep everything cool enough to make it run continuously.

 One other thought, you might have TWO different problems!  One is in the
 infeed module, the other might be something wrong with the spindle servo
 drive.  it may have a bad cooling fan or something.
 Monitoring the generated phase voltage while running and during rapid
 moves of Z I see no more than one volt variation. So that seems pretty
 stiff to me.

 The spindle and axes are all Siemens AC servos. If I changed to a VFD
 then I would loose my tool changer which would suck. I'd be more
 inclined to buy another VMC that didn't have a Siemens Simodrive 611
 than try and mod this one, then sell the Discovery 308 on flea bay. The
 sad part is I have more $ invested in BT30 tooling than I care to think
 about so that clouds the issue of getting rid of the 308 for another VMC.

 I plan on calling Siemens back to see if there is anything I might do to
 reduce the sensitivity of the drive. The one thing that sticks in the
 back of my mind is how crappy the wave form was when I removed the
 commutating reactor from the circuit... anyway a lot to wonder about.

 The waveform will be crappy due to the rectifiers connecting the cap
 bank first to
 this line, then to that one.  There will be large current pulses.

 Have you measured the AC ripple of the DC bus?  Put a DVM on AC and see what
 numbers you get under loaded conditions.

 Jon

 Jon

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

If you can, pull off the bus covers and attach some wires to the bus and 
alligator clip to those wires with a good multimeter and leave it set on 
Volts DC while you run the machine.  Be careful though as cheap jumper 
leads are probably not good for 600 volts.
But most machine tool wire ( the heavier stuff) is rated for 600 
volts.   Most good DVM leads are rated for at least 600 volts.   That 
way perhaps you can glance at the meter when you hear the tone change.

Dave



On 6/4/2012 6:40 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 Yesterday I made some parts and had a giant fan on the drive to see if
 it is a cooling problem. After about an hour or so the drive tripped
 out. I forgot to mention that the only thing moving during these faults
 is the Z axis and it is moving up ie the most loaded direction. Of
 course I can make it trip out with S6000 M3 so it does point to the
 infeed unit. I checked the internal cooling fan on the drives and they
 all are running. After the fault I reset the drive and continued to
 finish the last 5 parts without a fault. When it is about to fault out
 on a rapid Z up move I can hear a change in the tone of the Z servo and
 it starts to grunt for lack of a better word to describe the sound.

 The 600vdc buss is well protected as well as all the parts of the drive
 system. By the time I could get it open on the bench any hot part would
 be cool.

 I'll check the AC ripple today when I make some parts.

 John

 On 6/3/2012 1:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

 John Thornton wrote:
  
 Currently with the 10hp idler and the Samson lathe running as a second
 idler and the 611 in the BP 308 on I have the voltage balanced at 245
 between all three phases give or take one volt. The VMC will make parts
 and run at 2k with full rapid speeds or ramp up with G code to 6k and
 run about an hour or so before the drive trips out. Turning off
 everything for a while and whatever caused the trip seems to mend
 itself. So now I'm thinking that there might be an actual problem in the
 infeed unit because once it starts to trip out if I reset the machine
 and start running again it trips out real fast.



 Ah HA!  Something is getting hot, most likely.  So, it takes an hour to
 heat up?
 That suggests something massive, or possibly with a poor heat sink.
 It is dangerous to work around inside the machine with 600 V DC in there.
 Can you borrow a thermal camera?  otherwise, you'll need to power down
 and wait for the caps to drain, and then feel for anything getting hot.
 One other possibility is if it takes an hour to heat up, a modest fan might
 keep everything cool enough to make it run continuously.

 One other thought, you might have TWO different problems!  One is in the
 infeed module, the other might be something wrong with the spindle servo
 drive.  it may have a bad cooling fan or something.
  
 Monitoring the generated phase voltage while running and during rapid
 moves of Z I see no more than one volt variation. So that seems pretty
 stiff to me.

 The spindle and axes are all Siemens AC servos. If I changed to a VFD
 then I would loose my tool changer which would suck. I'd be more
 inclined to buy another VMC that didn't have a Siemens Simodrive 611
 than try and mod this one, then sell the Discovery 308 on flea bay. The
 sad part is I have more $ invested in BT30 tooling than I care to think
 about so that clouds the issue of getting rid of the 308 for another VMC.

 I plan on calling Siemens back to see if there is anything I might do to
 reduce the sensitivity of the drive. The one thing that sticks in the
 back of my mind is how crappy the wave form was when I removed the
 commutating reactor from the circuit... anyway a lot to wonder about.


 The waveform will be crappy due to the rectifiers connecting the cap
 bank first to
 this line, then to that one.  There will be large current pulses.

 Have you measured the AC ripple of the DC bus?  Put a DVM on AC and see what
 numbers you get under loaded conditions.

 Jon

 Jon

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
  
 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

After the trip yesterday the only lights on the infeed unit that was on 
was 3 external enable not present and 4 DC link charged. The spindle 
drive lcd was 6 iirc and the Z was 3. I could not find anything on what 
the drive lcd's mean.

I'm not having any luck in borrowing an isolation transformer but have 
got prices on one but the poor guy must think I'm nuts as I keep adding 
things...

On 6/3/2012 7:59 PM, Dave wrote:
 Hi John,

 On the top of section 6.3 in the PDF manual it says:

 A switch S1 is provided on the upper side of the NE and monitoring
 module that
 is used to set the following functions (for UI 5 kW on the front side):

 Below that line it shows the meanings of the dipswitch settings.

 The NE is the Infeed module. Siemens loves acronyms. :-(

 They have two types of infeed modules the I/R module which is an
 Infeed/Regenerate module (common) and a UI module which is an
 unregulated input module (I have no idea what it is used for).

 So you may have to remove your Infeed module to get to the side of it
 and see the dipswitches. They are normally set and never changed.

 Regardless after reading the manual further, the only switch I would
 consider changing would be the sine wave/square wave switch but I would
 talk to Siemens tech support before doing that.

 According to your part number 6SN1145-1BA00-0BA0 for your infeed, you
 have a 16 KW infeed module. Siemens is very insistent about using a
 grounded Wye feed connection on this module ( Page 7-201 ) and they
 state this
 is because not using one might cause voltages to exceed the insulation
 levels of the infeed module - which of course leads to failure.

 On Page 6-160 they talk about the lights on the front of the infeed
 module and what they mean. If the lower right light was on, that is
 described as:

 6 LED red – DC link overvoltage
 possible causes: Regenerative feedback off, setting–up operation,
 line fault, for UI, PW either not operational or too small,
 line supply voltage too high, dynamic overload, line filter
 inserted between I/R and the commutating reactor

 It looks to me that the drive is having a problem dumping excess power
 back to the power line via regeneration which happens whenever a drive
 decels quickly, and the infeed module is overheating as a result.

 This is a good size drive system with a 16 KW infeed module. You must
 have some pretty healthy axis drives as well, as this machine was
 obviously meant to move fast.

 On page 7-202 they talk about sizing an isolation transformer for this
 infeed module and the recommendation is something larger than 21 KVA.
 They recommend a part number and it weighs about 300 lbs which seems
 about right.

 If I were you I would go hunting for either an isolation transformer if
 you want to still pursue the use of your phase converter or throw in the
 towel and find a decent generator. Even when using a generator, having
 an isolation transformer also might be a good idea just to protect the
 611 system.

 I'm afraid that if you push the 611 much further without at least an
 isolation transformer something bad is going to happen and that could
 get expensive. Obviously the drive system it is already being stressed
 already - probabaly due to regeneration issues. If the drive can't
 regenerate power back into the line to dump excess energy - it only has
 one other way to get rid of that and that is for the drive system itself
 to heat up - and that will only end badly.

 I looked on the web for that infeed module and the cheapest one I could
 find used was $1300 from Classic Automation.

 Dave



 On 6/3/2012 11:43 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 My infeed looks like Fig 6-2 on page 6-143.

 John

 On 6/3/2012 9:44 AM, Dave wrote:

 What is your S1-3 dipswitch switch settings on the infeed module?   Do
 you have regeneration back into the line turned on?

 That might be a situation that could cause thermal issues in the infeed
 with the phase converter setup.  I think the infeed might have some big
 problems trying to regenerate into a phase converter.

 If S1-3 is off, then regeneration is enabled.  That is the default setting.

 Also S1-6 is a switch for setting the input mode on the infeed module.
 If it is on, then it is set for sinusoidal input operation ( the
 default), but if it is off that setting is for use with square wave
 input operation.  ( I have no idea why this switch exists??)
 If you call Siemens, ask them about S1-6.  Obviously square waves have
 all kinds of harmonics, and your phase converter is putting out
 distorted sine waves (with harmonics), perhaps putting the infeed into
 square wave mode would
 make it much more tolerant of line noise ??

 Or perhaps turning on square wave input mode along with disabling
 regeneration might solve your problems?

 Dave

 On 6/3/2012 9:29 AM, John Thornton wrote:

 On 6/2/2012 2:14 PM, Dave wrote:


 Unfortunately if he buys a transformer it still might not work. That
 is why I would try and borrow one before

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

My DMM leads have alligator clips so that is not a problem to watch the 
DC buss while running. At least when the Z move to clear position is 
about to fault out I have a second or two notice with the tone change to 
try and focus on the DMM readout.

John

On 6/4/2012 7:41 AM, Dave wrote:
 If you can, pull off the bus covers and attach some wires to the bus and
 alligator clip to those wires with a good multimeter and leave it set on
 Volts DC while you run the machine.  Be careful though as cheap jumper
 leads are probably not good for 600 volts.
 But most machine tool wire ( the heavier stuff) is rated for 600
 volts.   Most good DVM leads are rated for at least 600 volts.   That
 way perhaps you can glance at the meter when you hear the tone change.

 Dave



 On 6/4/2012 6:40 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 Yesterday I made some parts and had a giant fan on the drive to see if
 it is a cooling problem. After about an hour or so the drive tripped
 out. I forgot to mention that the only thing moving during these faults
 is the Z axis and it is moving up ie the most loaded direction. Of
 course I can make it trip out with S6000 M3 so it does point to the
 infeed unit. I checked the internal cooling fan on the drives and they
 all are running. After the fault I reset the drive and continued to
 finish the last 5 parts without a fault. When it is about to fault out
 on a rapid Z up move I can hear a change in the tone of the Z servo and
 it starts to grunt for lack of a better word to describe the sound.

 The 600vdc buss is well protected as well as all the parts of the drive
 system. By the time I could get it open on the bench any hot part would
 be cool.

 I'll check the AC ripple today when I make some parts.

 John

 On 6/3/2012 1:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

 John Thornton wrote:

 Currently with the 10hp idler and the Samson lathe running as a second
 idler and the 611 in the BP 308 on I have the voltage balanced at 245
 between all three phases give or take one volt. The VMC will make parts
 and run at 2k with full rapid speeds or ramp up with G code to 6k and
 run about an hour or so before the drive trips out. Turning off
 everything for a while and whatever caused the trip seems to mend
 itself. So now I'm thinking that there might be an actual problem in the
 infeed unit because once it starts to trip out if I reset the machine
 and start running again it trips out real fast.



 Ah HA!  Something is getting hot, most likely.  So, it takes an hour to
 heat up?
 That suggests something massive, or possibly with a poor heat sink.
 It is dangerous to work around inside the machine with 600 V DC in there.
 Can you borrow a thermal camera?  otherwise, you'll need to power down
 and wait for the caps to drain, and then feel for anything getting hot.
 One other possibility is if it takes an hour to heat up, a modest fan might
 keep everything cool enough to make it run continuously.

 One other thought, you might have TWO different problems!  One is in the
 infeed module, the other might be something wrong with the spindle servo
 drive.  it may have a bad cooling fan or something.

 Monitoring the generated phase voltage while running and during rapid
 moves of Z I see no more than one volt variation. So that seems pretty
 stiff to me.

 The spindle and axes are all Siemens AC servos. If I changed to a VFD
 then I would loose my tool changer which would suck. I'd be more
 inclined to buy another VMC that didn't have a Siemens Simodrive 611
 than try and mod this one, then sell the Discovery 308 on flea bay. The
 sad part is I have more $ invested in BT30 tooling than I care to think
 about so that clouds the issue of getting rid of the 308 for another VMC.

 I plan on calling Siemens back to see if there is anything I might do to
 reduce the sensitivity of the drive. The one thing that sticks in the
 back of my mind is how crappy the wave form was when I removed the
 commutating reactor from the circuit... anyway a lot to wonder about.


 The waveform will be crappy due to the rectifiers connecting the cap
 bank first to
 this line, then to that one.  There will be large current pulses.

 Have you measured the AC ripple of the DC bus?  Put a DVM on AC and see what
 numbers you get under loaded conditions.

 Jon

 Jon

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-04 Thread gene heskett

On Monday, June 04, 2012 08:58:57 AM Dave did opine:

 If you can, pull off the bus covers and attach some wires to the bus and
 alligator clip to those wires with a good multimeter and leave it set on
 Volts DC while you run the machine.  Be careful though as cheap jumper
 leads are probably not good for 600 volts.
 But most machine tool wire ( the heavier stuff) is rated for 600
 volts.   Most good DVM leads are rated for at least 600 volts.   That
 way perhaps you can glance at the meter when you hear the tone change.
 
 Dave
 
Good idea, on the face of it, but I would highly recommend rigging an 
external resistive range multiplier in front of the meter as very few can 
withstand that sort of voltage for extended periods of time.  The problem 
isn't generally one of heating of the internal resistors, but of exceeding 
the end to end voltage rating of the resistors, causing microscopic arcs 
from carbon grain to carbon grain, which degrades the resistance to the low 
side, sometimes to nearly a dead short for a 20 megohm resistor.  A 20k 
ohms/volt multimeter would need 12 megohms as its buildout to make it read 
full scale on the 50 u-amp range when connected to 600 volts, but that, 
because of the applied voltage, should be a dozen 1 meg, 2 watt resistors 
in series in order to distribute the voltage stress across the individual 1 
meg resistors and be stable over extended times.  You are interested in the 
variation, not the absolute reading.  I'd use 13 1 meg R's just so there 
was room to read a slight rise too.

.  A multimeter, like an old Simpson 260, will gradually start reading 
high, but eventually will pin the needle and let all the magic smoke out.  
Don't ask me how I know. :)

 On 6/4/2012 6:40 AM, John Thornton wrote:
  Yesterday I made some parts and had a giant fan on the drive to see if
  it is a cooling problem. After about an hour or so the drive tripped
  out. I forgot to mention that the only thing moving during these
  faults is the Z axis and it is moving up ie the most loaded
  direction. Of course I can make it trip out with S6000 M3 so it does
  point to the infeed unit. I checked the internal cooling fan on the
  drives and they all are running. After the fault I reset the drive
  and continued to finish the last 5 parts without a fault. When it is
  about to fault out on a rapid Z up move I can hear a change in the
  tone of the Z servo and it starts to grunt for lack of a better word
  to describe the sound.
  
  The 600vdc buss is well protected as well as all the parts of the
  drive system. By the time I could get it open on the bench any hot
  part would be cool.
  
  I'll check the AC ripple today when I make some parts.
  
  John
  
  On 6/3/2012 1:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
  John Thornton wrote:
  Currently with the 10hp idler and the Samson lathe running as a
  second idler and the 611 in the BP 308 on I have the voltage
  balanced at 245 between all three phases give or take one volt. The
  VMC will make parts and run at 2k with full rapid speeds or ramp up
  with G code to 6k and run about an hour or so before the drive
  trips out. Turning off everything for a while and whatever caused
  the trip seems to mend itself. So now I'm thinking that there might
  be an actual problem in the infeed unit because once it starts to
  trip out if I reset the machine and start running again it trips
  out real fast.
  
  Ah HA!  Something is getting hot, most likely.  So, it takes an hour
  to heat up?
  That suggests something massive, or possibly with a poor heat sink.
  It is dangerous to work around inside the machine with 600 V DC in
  there. Can you borrow a thermal camera?  otherwise, you'll need to
  power down and wait for the caps to drain, and then feel for
  anything getting hot. One other possibility is if it takes an hour
  to heat up, a modest fan might keep everything cool enough to make
  it run continuously.
  
  One other thought, you might have TWO different problems!  One is in
  the infeed module, the other might be something wrong with the
  spindle servo drive.  it may have a bad cooling fan or something.
  
  Monitoring the generated phase voltage while running and during
  rapid moves of Z I see no more than one volt variation. So that
  seems pretty stiff to me.
  
  The spindle and axes are all Siemens AC servos. If I changed to a
  VFD then I would loose my tool changer which would suck. I'd be
  more inclined to buy another VMC that didn't have a Siemens
  Simodrive 611 than try and mod this one, then sell the Discovery
  308 on flea bay. The sad part is I have more $ invested in BT30
  tooling than I care to think about so that clouds the issue of
  getting rid of the 308 for another VMC.
  
  I plan on calling Siemens back to see if there is anything I might
  do to reduce the sensitivity of the drive. The one thing that
  sticks in the back of my mind is how crappy the wave form was when
  I removed the commutating reactor from the circuit...

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-04 Thread ceenbot

Hi John,

Too bad you can't connect your machine to a solid 3-ph line to see if the same 
issue happens regardless of the power source.  I had a handful of issues with 
my '86 VMC like loose PC boards, oxidized connectors, etc.  Now that it gets 
more use it seems to be doing better.  Keeping the caps charged makes it happy 
I guess.  Last year I fired it up after months of non-use and it worked fine on 
a Saturday but the Z-axis encoder went bad the next day.  Turns out I upset a 
mother mouse with my Saturday machining and she chewed through the nice 
Heidenhain shielded encoder cable!!  It was a 20 ft extension cable so I was 
able to shorten it a bit and get running again.  Now there are sticky traps in 
the machine's wire trays.  The kids drop dog food in the garage and the mice 
are quick about stuffing kibbles in my equipment.

A change in sound may indicate other issues like stressed driver silicon.  This 
may be electrical or thermal stress from its previous owner.  Even a tangential 
lightning hit may show up in weird ways.  Maybe an IGBT or MOSFET is on the 
edge of going and when it draws too much current the 611 trips out.


Dennis



  
   On 6/4/2012 6:40 AM, John Thornton wrote:
   Yesterday I made some parts and had a giant fan on the drive to see if
   it is a cooling problem. After about an hour or so the drive tripped
   out. I forgot to mention that the only thing moving during these faults
   is the Z axis and it is moving up ie the most loaded direction. Of
   course I can make it trip out with S6000 M3 so it does point to the
   infeed unit. I checked the internal cooling fan on the drives and they
   all are running. After the fault I reset the drive and continued to
   finish the last 5 parts without a fault. When it is about to fault out
   on a rapid Z up move I can hear a change in the tone of the Z servo and
   it starts to grunt for lack of a better word to describe the sound.
  
   The 600vdc buss is well protected as well as all the parts of the drive
   system. By the time I could get it open on the bench any hot part would
   be cool.
  
   I'll check the AC ripple today when I make some parts.
  
   John

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor


You just need yet another manual!  ;-)  Its all there, on the web, 
someplace.   The trick is finding it.  :-)

http://www.automation.siemens.com/doconweb/pdf/840C_1101_E/611a_iaa.pdf?p=1

Page 8/48 says that a 3 on the drive module display is a motor overheat 
situation.  I'm not sure if this manual applies directly to that 
particular drive module, but Siemens is pretty consistent with
their diagnostic error numbers on a product line (like the 611).

6 means pulse cancellation - which means that the spindle was shutdown 
probably due to an enable that dropped out when the Z axis motor 
overheat detection circuit tripped.

Might want to check the temp on that Z drive motor with an Infrared temp 
gun.  I have a el-cheapo Harbor Freight unit that I use for that.
Does your Z axis have a counter balance?  Perhaps it needs to be 
readjusted?   Or you might be able to lower your Z rapids to get rid of 
the overheat situation.  Or you could have a mechanical issue with your 
Z axis which is creating excessive drag - hence the grunting.

All of the Siemens servo motors I have seen have thermistors buried in 
the motor windings to detect motor temp.  The thermistor leads usually 
come back through the motor cables - I believe they are in the same 
cable as the motor power leads.  Usually they are the fine wires in the 
motor connection box.   If you have a bad motor cable you might get the 
same error even if the motor temp is fine.

You might be able to swap motors and see if the problems moves with the 
motor - assuming the Z motor is the same as the X or Y.

Dave



On 6/4/2012 9:09 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 After the trip yesterday the only lights on the infeed unit that was on
 was 3 external enable not present and 4 DC link charged. The spindle
 drive lcd was 6 iirc and the Z was 3. I could not find anything on what
 the drive lcd's mean.

 I'm not having any luck in borrowing an isolation transformer but have
 got prices on one but the poor guy must think I'm nuts as I keep adding
 things...

 On 6/3/2012 7:59 PM, Dave wrote:

 Hi John,

 On the top of section 6.3 in the PDF manual it says:

 A switch S1 is provided on the upper side of the NE and monitoring
 module that
 is used to set the following functions (for UI 5 kW on the front side):

 Below that line it shows the meanings of the dipswitch settings.

 The NE is the Infeed module. Siemens loves acronyms. :-(

 They have two types of infeed modules the I/R module which is an
 Infeed/Regenerate module (common) and a UI module which is an
 unregulated input module (I have no idea what it is used for).

 So you may have to remove your Infeed module to get to the side of it
 and see the dipswitches. They are normally set and never changed.

 Regardless after reading the manual further, the only switch I would
 consider changing would be the sine wave/square wave switch but I would
 talk to Siemens tech support before doing that.

 According to your part number 6SN1145-1BA00-0BA0 for your infeed, you
 have a 16 KW infeed module. Siemens is very insistent about using a
 grounded Wye feed connection on this module ( Page 7-201 ) and they
 state this
 is because not using one might cause voltages to exceed the insulation
 levels of the infeed module - which of course leads to failure.

 On Page 6-160 they talk about the lights on the front of the infeed
 module and what they mean. If the lower right light was on, that is
 described as:

 6 LED red – DC link overvoltage
 possible causes: Regenerative feedback off, setting–up operation,
 line fault, for UI, PW either not operational or too small,
 line supply voltage too high, dynamic overload, line filter
 inserted between I/R and the commutating reactor

 It looks to me that the drive is having a problem dumping excess power
 back to the power line via regeneration which happens whenever a drive
 decels quickly, and the infeed module is overheating as a result.

 This is a good size drive system with a 16 KW infeed module. You must
 have some pretty healthy axis drives as well, as this machine was
 obviously meant to move fast.

 On page 7-202 they talk about sizing an isolation transformer for this
 infeed module and the recommendation is something larger than 21 KVA.
 They recommend a part number and it weighs about 300 lbs which seems
 about right.

 If I were you I would go hunting for either an isolation transformer if
 you want to still pursue the use of your phase converter or throw in the
 towel and find a decent generator. Even when using a generator, having
 an isolation transformer also might be a good idea just to protect the
 611 system.

 I'm afraid that if you push the 611 much further without at least an
 isolation transformer something bad is going to happen and that could
 get expensive. Obviously the drive system it is already being stressed
 already - probabaly due to regeneration issues. If the drive can't
 regenerate power back into the line to dump excess energy - it only has

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

You need a shop cat! Unfortunately shop cats are not effective 
deterrents to raccoons and possums.

But I don't have any mice...  ;-)

Dave

On 6/4/2012 9:52 AM, ceen...@in-front.com wrote:
 Hi John,

 Too bad you can't connect your machine to a solid 3-ph line to see if the 
 same issue happens regardless of the power source.  I had a handful of issues 
 with my '86 VMC like loose PC boards, oxidized connectors, etc.  Now that it 
 gets more use it seems to be doing better.  Keeping the caps charged makes it 
 happy I guess.  Last year I fired it up after months of non-use and it worked 
 fine on a Saturday but the Z-axis encoder went bad the next day.  Turns out I 
 upset a mother mouse with my Saturday machining and she chewed through the 
 nice Heidenhain shielded encoder cable!!  It was a 20 ft extension cable so I 
 was able to shorten it a bit and get running again.  Now there are sticky 
 traps in the machine's wire trays.  The kids drop dog food in the garage and 
 the mice are quick about stuffing kibbles in my equipment.

 A change in sound may indicate other issues like stressed driver silicon.  
 This may be electrical or thermal stress from its previous owner.  Even a 
 tangential lightning hit may show up in weird ways.  Maybe an IGBT or MOSFET 
 is on the edge of going and when it draws too much current the 611 trips out.


 Dennis




   
 On 6/4/2012 6:40 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 Yesterday I made some parts and had a giant fan on the drive to see if
 it is a cooling problem. After about an hour or so the drive tripped
 out. I forgot to mention that the only thing moving during these faults
 is the Z axis and it is moving up ie the most loaded direction. Of
 course I can make it trip out with S6000 M3 so it does point to the
 infeed unit. I checked the internal cooling fan on the drives and they
 all are running. After the fault I reset the drive and continued to
 finish the last 5 parts without a fault. When it is about to fault out
 on a rapid Z up move I can hear a change in the tone of the Z servo and
 it starts to grunt for lack of a better word to describe the sound.
   
 The 600vdc buss is well protected as well as all the parts of the drive
 system. By the time I could get it open on the bench any hot part would
 be cool.
   
 I'll check the AC ripple today when I make some parts.
   
 John
  
 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users




--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

My meter is a Fluke 75 rated at 1000vdc and 750vac so I should be ok... 
I've had it connected to the 600vdc buss before for quite some time when 
messing about with the RPC a few weeks ago.

John

On 6/4/2012 8:23 AM, gene heskett wrote:
 On Monday, June 04, 2012 08:58:57 AM Dave did opine:

 If you can, pull off the bus covers and attach some wires to the bus and
 alligator clip to those wires with a good multimeter and leave it set on
 Volts DC while you run the machine.  Be careful though as cheap jumper
 leads are probably not good for 600 volts.
 But most machine tool wire ( the heavier stuff) is rated for 600
 volts.   Most good DVM leads are rated for at least 600 volts.   That
 way perhaps you can glance at the meter when you hear the tone change.

 Dave

 Good idea, on the face of it, but I would highly recommend rigging an
 external resistive range multiplier in front of the meter as very few can
 withstand that sort of voltage for extended periods of time.  The problem
 isn't generally one of heating of the internal resistors, but of exceeding
 the end to end voltage rating of the resistors, causing microscopic arcs
 from carbon grain to carbon grain, which degrades the resistance to the low
 side, sometimes to nearly a dead short for a 20 megohm resistor.  A 20k
 ohms/volt multimeter would need 12 megohms as its buildout to make it read
 full scale on the 50 u-amp range when connected to 600 volts, but that,
 because of the applied voltage, should be a dozen 1 meg, 2 watt resistors
 in series in order to distribute the voltage stress across the individual 1
 meg resistors and be stable over extended times.  You are interested in the
 variation, not the absolute reading.  I'd use 13 1 meg R's just so there
 was room to read a slight rise too.

 .  A multimeter, like an old Simpson 260, will gradually start reading
 high, but eventually will pin the needle and let all the magic smoke out.
 Don't ask me how I know. :)

 On 6/4/2012 6:40 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 Yesterday I made some parts and had a giant fan on the drive to see if
 it is a cooling problem. After about an hour or so the drive tripped
 out. I forgot to mention that the only thing moving during these
 faults is the Z axis and it is moving up ie the most loaded
 direction. Of course I can make it trip out with S6000 M3 so it does
 point to the infeed unit. I checked the internal cooling fan on the
 drives and they all are running. After the fault I reset the drive
 and continued to finish the last 5 parts without a fault. When it is
 about to fault out on a rapid Z up move I can hear a change in the
 tone of the Z servo and it starts to grunt for lack of a better word
 to describe the sound.

 The 600vdc buss is well protected as well as all the parts of the
 drive system. By the time I could get it open on the bench any hot
 part would be cool.

 I'll check the AC ripple today when I make some parts.

 John

 On 6/3/2012 1:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
 John Thornton wrote:
 Currently with the 10hp idler and the Samson lathe running as a
 second idler and the 611 in the BP 308 on I have the voltage
 balanced at 245 between all three phases give or take one volt. The
 VMC will make parts and run at 2k with full rapid speeds or ramp up
 with G code to 6k and run about an hour or so before the drive
 trips out. Turning off everything for a while and whatever caused
 the trip seems to mend itself. So now I'm thinking that there might
 be an actual problem in the infeed unit because once it starts to
 trip out if I reset the machine and start running again it trips
 out real fast.
 Ah HA!  Something is getting hot, most likely.  So, it takes an hour
 to heat up?
 That suggests something massive, or possibly with a poor heat sink.
 It is dangerous to work around inside the machine with 600 V DC in
 there. Can you borrow a thermal camera?  otherwise, you'll need to
 power down and wait for the caps to drain, and then feel for
 anything getting hot. One other possibility is if it takes an hour
 to heat up, a modest fan might keep everything cool enough to make
 it run continuously.

 One other thought, you might have TWO different problems!  One is in
 the infeed module, the other might be something wrong with the
 spindle servo drive.  it may have a bad cooling fan or something.

 Monitoring the generated phase voltage while running and during
 rapid moves of Z I see no more than one volt variation. So that
 seems pretty stiff to me.

 The spindle and axes are all Siemens AC servos. If I changed to a
 VFD then I would loose my tool changer which would suck. I'd be
 more inclined to buy another VMC that didn't have a Siemens
 Simodrive 611 than try and mod this one, then sell the Discovery
 308 on flea bay. The sad part is I have more $ invested in BT30
 tooling than I care to think about so that clouds the issue of
 getting rid of the 308 for another VMC.

 I plan on calling Siemens back to see if there is anything I might
 do to reduce the

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

I use a Fluke 77 for the same thing and I have never had any problems 
yet also.

Dave

On 6/4/2012 11:59 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 My meter is a Fluke 75 rated at 1000vdc and 750vac so I should be ok...
 I've had it connected to the 600vdc buss before for quite some time when
 messing about with the RPC a few weeks ago.

 John

 On 6/4/2012 8:23 AM, gene heskett wrote:

 On Monday, June 04, 2012 08:58:57 AM Dave did opine:

  
 If you can, pull off the bus covers and attach some wires to the bus and
 alligator clip to those wires with a good multimeter and leave it set on
 Volts DC while you run the machine.  Be careful though as cheap jumper
 leads are probably not good for 600 volts.
 But most machine tool wire ( the heavier stuff) is rated for 600
 volts.   Most good DVM leads are rated for at least 600 volts.   That
 way perhaps you can glance at the meter when you hear the tone change.

 Dave

 Good idea, on the face of it, but I would highly recommend rigging an
 external resistive range multiplier in front of the meter as very few can
 withstand that sort of voltage for extended periods of time.  The problem
 isn't generally one of heating of the internal resistors, but of exceeding
 the end to end voltage rating of the resistors, causing microscopic arcs
 from carbon grain to carbon grain, which degrades the resistance to the low
 side, sometimes to nearly a dead short for a 20 megohm resistor.  A 20k
 ohms/volt multimeter would need 12 megohms as its buildout to make it read
 full scale on the 50 u-amp range when connected to 600 volts, but that,
 because of the applied voltage, should be a dozen 1 meg, 2 watt resistors
 in series in order to distribute the voltage stress across the individual 1
 meg resistors and be stable over extended times.  You are interested in the
 variation, not the absolute reading.  I'd use 13 1 meg R's just so there
 was room to read a slight rise too.

 .  A multimeter, like an old Simpson 260, will gradually start reading
 high, but eventually will pin the needle and let all the magic smoke out.
 Don't ask me how I know. :)

  
 On 6/4/2012 6:40 AM, John Thornton wrote:

 Yesterday I made some parts and had a giant fan on the drive to see if
 it is a cooling problem. After about an hour or so the drive tripped
 out. I forgot to mention that the only thing moving during these
 faults is the Z axis and it is moving up ie the most loaded
 direction. Of course I can make it trip out with S6000 M3 so it does
 point to the infeed unit. I checked the internal cooling fan on the
 drives and they all are running. After the fault I reset the drive
 and continued to finish the last 5 parts without a fault. When it is
 about to fault out on a rapid Z up move I can hear a change in the
 tone of the Z servo and it starts to grunt for lack of a better word
 to describe the sound.

 The 600vdc buss is well protected as well as all the parts of the
 drive system. By the time I could get it open on the bench any hot
 part would be cool.

 I'll check the AC ripple today when I make some parts.

 John

 On 6/3/2012 1:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
  
 John Thornton wrote:

 Currently with the 10hp idler and the Samson lathe running as a
 second idler and the 611 in the BP 308 on I have the voltage
 balanced at 245 between all three phases give or take one volt. The
 VMC will make parts and run at 2k with full rapid speeds or ramp up
 with G code to 6k and run about an hour or so before the drive
 trips out. Turning off everything for a while and whatever caused
 the trip seems to mend itself. So now I'm thinking that there might
 be an actual problem in the infeed unit because once it starts to
 trip out if I reset the machine and start running again it trips
 out real fast.
  
 Ah HA!  Something is getting hot, most likely.  So, it takes an hour
 to heat up?
 That suggests something massive, or possibly with a poor heat sink.
 It is dangerous to work around inside the machine with 600 V DC in
 there. Can you borrow a thermal camera?  otherwise, you'll need to
 power down and wait for the caps to drain, and then feel for
 anything getting hot. One other possibility is if it takes an hour
 to heat up, a modest fan might keep everything cool enough to make
 it run continuously.

 One other thought, you might have TWO different problems!  One is in
 the infeed module, the other might be something wrong with the
 spindle servo drive.  it may have a bad cooling fan or something.


 Monitoring the generated phase voltage while running and during
 rapid moves of Z I see no more than one volt variation. So that
 seems pretty stiff to me.

 The spindle and axes are all Siemens AC servos. If I changed to a
 VFD then I would loose my tool changer which would suck. I'd be
 more inclined to buy another VMC that didn't have a Siemens
 Simodrive 611 than try and mod this one, then sell the Discovery
 308 on flea bay. The sad part is I

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-04 Thread Jon Elson

ceen...@in-front.com wrote:
 Hi John,

 Too bad you can't connect your machine to a solid 3-ph line to see if the 
 same issue happens regardless of the power source.
He ran it on a Diesel generator, and it did NOT trip.  So, it is 
SOMTHING about
the power source.

Jon

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-04 Thread gene heskett

On Monday, June 04, 2012 02:09:42 PM Dave did opine:

 You need a shop cat! Unfortunately shop cats are not effective
 deterrents to raccoons and possums.
 
That depends on the cat.  I met my first maine coon in about '61.  My dog 
at the time, an 85 lb German Shepherd bitch, had a hate for cats that was 
not negotiable.  This cat belonged to the neighbors across the street and 
was sized accordingly since they were both well over 6 foot tall, so their 
kitchen counters had been raised to about 44 high.  Over for a beer, she 
was cutting up a tossed salad in one of those big green monster tupperware 
bowls.  This cat was standing up at the counter with its front feet on the 
counter with its head poked under her arm  looking in the bowl. 35 lbs at 
least.

A week later this cat came walking across our side year as if it owned the 
place, while Lady, the GS, was napping with one eye half open on the front 
stoop.  There was an apple tree, perhaps 12 foot tall in the middle of that 
side yard.  Lady exploded and came down from a 1 bounce in 30 feet jump, 
where that cat _was_ when she aimed.  That cat came back down in the middle 
of Ladies back and for 10 seconds or so I thought that cat was gonna put 
Lady up that tree.  The 'Andy Capp' carton for real.  When the 
'festivities' ran down, Lady was bleeding from several places she wasn't 
supposed to bleed from, had a ear split about halfway to her skull, and 
about half of her nose had been cut free.  Jake, the cat, walked away at 
the same speed he walked in, with no apparent damage, still king of his 
hill.

Lady's nose did heal up nicely and she accounted for herself against coons 
and an occasional possum after we moved up canyon, usually leaving them 
dead in short order. Never tried to eat one, just killed it. That cat could 
have handled a coon or a possum without working up a sweat.  A Norway rat 
would have been just an appetizer.

 But I don't have any mice...  ;-)

Get some!  They can be great entertainment, for the cat. :)
 
Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene
Remember to say hello to your bank teller.

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-04 Thread gene heskett

On Monday, June 04, 2012 02:42:15 PM John Thornton did opine:

 My meter is a Fluke 75 rated at 1000vdc and 750vac so I should be ok...
 I've had it connected to the 600vdc buss before for quite some time when
 messing about with the RPC a few weeks ago.
 
 John
[...]

That should be ok, but many of the lower priced devices that sell for $80 
and less, would not survive long exposures to that. I don't think either of 
my el-cheapo's would.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene
After twelve years of therapy my psychiatrist said something that
brought tears to my eyes.  He said, No hablo ingles.
-- Ronnie Shakes

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-04 Thread ceenbot

Did John run it for an hour or longer to be able to repeat the only one hour 
run time situation?  I forgot what the capacity of the borrowed generator was 
to compare it to a 15HP weak leg system.  Even if the generator varied in speed 
and voltage when loaded, one thing should be fairly certain - the phases should 
be 120 degrees apart.  That is helpful by itself.


Dennis


  He ran it on a Diesel generator, and it did NOT trip.  So, it is
  SOMTHING about
  the power source.
  
  Jon


--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-04 Thread dave

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 14:34:20 -0400
gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote:

 On Monday, June 04, 2012 02:09:42 PM Dave did opine:
 
  You need a shop cat! Unfortunately shop cats are not effective
  deterrents to raccoons and possums.
  
 That depends on the cat.  I met my first maine coon in about '61.  My
 dog at the time, an 85 lb German Shepherd bitch, had a hate for cats
 that was not negotiable.  This cat belonged to the neighbors across
 the street and was sized accordingly since they were both well over 6
 foot tall, so their kitchen counters had been raised to about 44
 high.  Over for a beer, she was cutting up a tossed salad in one of
 those big green monster tupperware bowls.  This cat was standing up
 at the counter with its front feet on the counter with its head poked
 under her arm  looking in the bowl. 35 lbs at least.
 
 A week later this cat came walking across our side year as if it
 owned the place, while Lady, the GS, was napping with one eye half
 open on the front stoop.  There was an apple tree, perhaps 12 foot
 tall in the middle of that side yard.  Lady exploded and came down
 from a 1 bounce in 30 feet jump, where that cat _was_ when she
 aimed.  That cat came back down in the middle of Ladies back and for
 10 seconds or so I thought that cat was gonna put Lady up that tree.
 The 'Andy Capp' carton for real.  When the 'festivities' ran down,
 Lady was bleeding from several places she wasn't supposed to bleed
 from, had a ear split about halfway to her skull, and about half of
 her nose had been cut free.  Jake, the cat, walked away at the same
 speed he walked in, with no apparent damage, still king of his hill.
 
 Lady's nose did heal up nicely and she accounted for herself against
 coons and an occasional possum after we moved up canyon, usually
 leaving them dead in short order. Never tried to eat one, just killed
 it. That cat could have handled a coon or a possum without working up
 a sweat.  A Norway rat would have been just an appetizer.

Maine coons are some cat; only cat I know of that wants to shower with
you. ;-)
 
  But I don't have any mice...  ;-)
 
 Get some!  They can be great entertainment, for the cat. :)
  
 Cheers, Gene


--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

You should have seen that redneck circus... that was funny trying to 
keep the power unit running anything near 1800 RPM with no frequency 
feedback.

John

On 6/4/2012 1:12 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
 ceen...@in-front.com wrote:
 Hi John,

 Too bad you can't connect your machine to a solid 3-ph line to see if the 
 same issue happens regardless of the power source.
 He ran it on a Diesel generator, and it did NOT trip.  So, it is
 SOMTHING about
 the power source.

 Jon

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-04 Thread Jon Elson

ceen...@in-front.com wrote:
 Did John run it for an hour or longer to be able to repeat the only one hour 
 run time situation?  I forgot what the capacity of the borrowed generator 
 was to compare it to a 15HP weak leg system.  Even if the generator varied in 
 speed and voltage when loaded, one thing should be fairly certain - the 
 phases should be 120 degrees apart.  That is helpful by itself.
   
Can't say on the length of the test.  Still, the fact the thing runs for 
an HOUR before
croaking seems to say something is wrong in the CNC machine.

Jon

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-03 Thread Mark Wendt (Contractor)

Yep, that about covers it.  ;-)

Mark

On 6/2/2012 7:54 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
 Heh!
 Wife = transformer?
 Power = money?

 Sent from my iPad

 On Jun 2, 2012, at 6:14 AM, Mark Wendt 
 (Contractor)mark.we...@nrl.navy.mil  wrote:


 On 6/2/2012 6:35 AM, John Thornton wrote:
  
 After some checking most transformers show the percent of inductance on
 the label. Some are 2.5% some are 4.~%. Basically the 611 drive is a
 poorly designed drive as the power requirements are very strict. This
 drive wants balanced voltage and wants an unlimited supply of it now!

 John


 Sounds almost like my wife.

 Mark
  


--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

Currently with the 10hp idler and the Samson lathe running as a second 
idler and the 611 in the BP 308 on I have the voltage balanced at 245 
between all three phases give or take one volt. The VMC will make parts 
and run at 2k with full rapid speeds or ramp up with G code to 6k and 
run about an hour or so before the drive trips out. Turning off 
everything for a while and whatever caused the trip seems to mend 
itself. So now I'm thinking that there might be an actual problem in the 
infeed unit because once it starts to trip out if I reset the machine 
and start running again it trips out real fast.

Monitoring the generated phase voltage while running and during rapid 
moves of Z I see no more than one volt variation. So that seems pretty 
stiff to me.

The spindle and axes are all Siemens AC servos. If I changed to a VFD 
then I would loose my tool changer which would suck. I'd be more 
inclined to buy another VMC that didn't have a Siemens Simodrive 611 
than try and mod this one, then sell the Discovery 308 on flea bay. The 
sad part is I have more $ invested in BT30 tooling than I care to think 
about so that clouds the issue of getting rid of the 308 for another VMC.

I plan on calling Siemens back to see if there is anything I might do to 
reduce the sensitivity of the drive. The one thing that sticks in the 
back of my mind is how crappy the wave form was when I removed the 
commutating reactor from the circuit... anyway a lot to wonder about.

Thanks
John

On 6/2/2012 1:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
 gene heskett wrote:

 Well, at some point it should become a discussion where the cost of
 switching the drives out for something that can tolerate a softer regulated
 power supply source is becoming one possible solution.
 Well, this seems premature.  This machine ALMOST works.  I have not
 looked at the
 docs link that John posted, so I don't know how much detail is there on
 the fault logic.
 There may be a couple ways to attack this, but it would help to know
 what fault is
 being sensed.  If there is a phase fault sensor, I might just hot-wire
 it out.  if there
 is a DC bus low sensor, I might see about changing a resistor or
 adjustment to make
 it a little less sensitive.  Also, possibly, increase the size of the
 filter cap bank a
 bit to make it dip less.

 What is the spindle motor (AC, DC)?  Is it controlled by an analog 10 V
 command?
 Would it be possible to run the spindle off a conventional VFD or DC
 drive, and
 separate it from the servo axis drives?

 Jon

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor



On 6/2/2012 2:14 PM, Dave wrote:
 Unfortunately if he buys a transformer it still might not work. That 
 is why I would try and borrow one before opening my wallet for $1400. 
I hope to borrow one before dumping more cash into this machine, as 
stiff as the phase converter is not I'm wondering if the infeed unit is 
weak... I did notice that my feed from the breaker panel to the RPC 
panel was a bit on the small side so I'll up the gauge on that as I have 
some 6 gauge SO cord laying about and see what that might do.

 The higher the %, the more voltage drop through the
 transformer/reactor.   So what John was saying is that the 611 system
 can use up to a 3% reactor, but no more.

 Can I assume then that when the BBLB syndrome is accounted for, that a 3%
 transformer is probably going to cost 50% more than the one yonder on the
 shelf that sells for 1.4G's or less in the size John needs?


 Meaning the 611
 expects a very stiff power supply, which really does not surprise me as
 it is a rather high performance drive system.  Most of the machines
 equipped with 611s that I have seen are serious industrial machines
 where there is a 1000 amp 480 volt bus duct 50 feet from the machine,
 etc.

 Well, at some point it should become a discussion where the cost of
 switching the drives out for something that can tolerate a softer regulated
 power supply source is becoming one possible solution. I expect that Johns
 location, way off the main line, will account for the first 1.5% of that 3%
 budget.  Thats item 1.  Item 2 is the cost, and the 24/7 power used to
 power a ferroresonant regulator such as a Sola that big is a measurable
 percentage of his monthly power bill. They run HOT, he could heat the shop
 with it in cooler weather.  But unlike the fans and/or AC, you can't turn
 them off when you don't need the heat.  They are also frequency sensitive,
 enough so that driving it from the diesel generator is out unless it has a
 .5% governor and double the size needed.

 Those drives in that size range obviously aren't cheap.  IMO, I'd be
 looking for parts to take his raw single phase, working into a full wave
 bridge rectifier, with a serious choke to maintain the power factor to
 something reasonable, and feed that into a switchmode regulator whose
 output was the 600 volt DC bus the rest of it needs.  With proper design it
 is at least as efficient as the 60 HZ transformer, as its transformer is
 ferrite cored and running at 30 kilohertz, and probably moreso, and could
 hold that 600 volt buss at 600 with 0.01% regulation despite the startup
 sags it would impose on the input line.  And it shouldn't cost, if such a
 beast is even available, any more than one of those 611 drives.


 The 611 infeed/power supply has a ribbon cable connection to the rest of
 the drive bus and it communicates with the other modules, so it is very
 much a smart drive system.   If would be a major effort to make up a new
 infeed unit and create the control signals to keep the rest of the
 modules happy.  The communications on the ribbon cable is proprietary.
I assumed that the ribbon cable did this...

 So the availability of such a beast might be the controlling factor.
 One thing is for sure Dave, if I was 50 years younger and contemplating the
 purchase of a machine that had these drives it it, I would certainly
 discount my bid by the amount of headache this thread has become to John.

 Bigger used 3 phase CNC machines oftentimes go for a lot less money than
 slightly smaller CNC machines that run of single phase and this is
 why.   It has been a while, but I got the impression that John got that
 machine at a very good price.

I paid $6k plus delivery about $750 or so and have about $3.5k in 
tooling for the beast...
 But that is the advantage of hindsight.  ;-)  What we need to do now is
 find a solution that Just Works(TM).  The use of the limit2 module
 functioning as a digital miller integrator to control the start up speed
 ramp up, and the delta/wye isolation transformer, which will add its 3 or
 4% to the mix, might be the best solution for John.  How that will fare if
 a big inch face mill is installed remains to be determined.

 Cheers, Gene


 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-03 Thread Dave

Are the lights on the infeed unit when a drive fault occurs identical to 
what you saw before?

 So now I'm thinking that there might be an actual problem in the

infeed unit because once it starts to trip out if I reset the machine
and start running again it trips out real fast.

This sounds like a thermal issue.  Once it cools off it is good for a while.  
But until it cools off it trips out immediately.

Does your infeed unit have a fan in it?  Is it working?  If not, open the 
cabinet and aim a room fan at the unit and see if you can get more time out of 
it.  Or better yet attach a fan to the bottom or top of it to blow some air 
through it.  A larger pancake type fan would work.

If the fan in the infeed unit is working ok, the infeed waveform distortion 
might be causing some issues in the Infeed unit, or you might have some weak 
components.

Sounds to me like you are close to solving these problems if you can get an 
hour our of it.

Still, a drive isolation transformer might clear up these problems entirely 
(assuming the infeed unit is not malfunctioning)

Dave







On 6/3/2012 9:08 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 Currently with the 10hp idler and the Samson lathe running as a second
 idler and the 611 in the BP 308 on I have the voltage balanced at 245
 between all three phases give or take one volt. The VMC will make parts
 and run at 2k with full rapid speeds or ramp up with G code to 6k and
 run about an hour or so before the drive trips out. Turning off
 everything for a while and whatever caused the trip seems to mend
 itself. So now I'm thinking that there might be an actual problem in the
 infeed unit because once it starts to trip out if I reset the machine
 and start running again it trips out real fast.

 Monitoring the generated phase voltage while running and during rapid
 moves of Z I see no more than one volt variation. So that seems pretty
 stiff to me.

 The spindle and axes are all Siemens AC servos. If I changed to a VFD
 then I would loose my tool changer which would suck. I'd be more
 inclined to buy another VMC that didn't have a Siemens Simodrive 611
 than try and mod this one, then sell the Discovery 308 on flea bay. The
 sad part is I have more $ invested in BT30 tooling than I care to think
 about so that clouds the issue of getting rid of the 308 for another VMC.

 I plan on calling Siemens back to see if there is anything I might do to
 reduce the sensitivity of the drive. The one thing that sticks in the
 back of my mind is how crappy the wave form was when I removed the
 commutating reactor from the circuit... anyway a lot to wonder about.

 Thanks
 John

 On 6/2/2012 1:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

 gene heskett wrote:
  
 Well, at some point it should become a discussion where the cost of
 switching the drives out for something that can tolerate a softer regulated
 power supply source is becoming one possible solution.

 Well, this seems premature.  This machine ALMOST works.  I have not
 looked at the
 docs link that John posted, so I don't know how much detail is there on
 the fault logic.
 There may be a couple ways to attack this, but it would help to know
 what fault is
 being sensed.  If there is a phase fault sensor, I might just hot-wire
 it out.  if there
 is a DC bus low sensor, I might see about changing a resistor or
 adjustment to make
 it a little less sensitive.  Also, possibly, increase the size of the
 filter cap bank a
 bit to make it dip less.

 What is the spindle motor (AC, DC)?  Is it controlled by an analog 10 V
 command?
 Would it be possible to run the spindle off a conventional VFD or DC
 drive, and
 separate it from the servo axis drives?

 Jon

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
  
 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users




--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-03 Thread Dave

What is your S1-3 dipswitch switch settings on the infeed module?   Do 
you have regeneration back into the line turned on?

That might be a situation that could cause thermal issues in the infeed 
with the phase converter setup.  I think the infeed might have some big 
problems trying to regenerate into a phase converter.

If S1-3 is off, then regeneration is enabled.  That is the default setting.

Also S1-6 is a switch for setting the input mode on the infeed module.  
If it is on, then it is set for sinusoidal input operation ( the 
default), but if it is off that setting is for use with square wave 
input operation.  ( I have no idea why this switch exists??)
If you call Siemens, ask them about S1-6.  Obviously square waves have 
all kinds of harmonics, and your phase converter is putting out 
distorted sine waves (with harmonics), perhaps putting the infeed into 
square wave mode would
make it much more tolerant of line noise ??

Or perhaps turning on square wave input mode along with disabling 
regeneration might solve your problems?

Dave

On 6/3/2012 9:29 AM, John Thornton wrote:

 On 6/2/2012 2:14 PM, Dave wrote:

 Unfortunately if he buys a transformer it still might not work. That
 is why I would try and borrow one before opening my wallet for $1400.
  
 I hope to borrow one before dumping more cash into this machine, as
 stiff as the phase converter is not I'm wondering if the infeed unit is
 weak... I did notice that my feed from the breaker panel to the RPC
 panel was a bit on the small side so I'll up the gauge on that as I have
 some 6 gauge SO cord laying about and see what that might do.


 The higher the %, the more voltage drop through the
 transformer/reactor.   So what John was saying is that the 611 system
 can use up to a 3% reactor, but no more.

  
 Can I assume then that when the BBLB syndrome is accounted for, that a 3%
 transformer is probably going to cost 50% more than the one yonder on the
 shelf that sells for 1.4G's or less in the size John needs?



 Meaning the 611
 expects a very stiff power supply, which really does not surprise me as
 it is a rather high performance drive system.  Most of the machines
 equipped with 611s that I have seen are serious industrial machines
 where there is a 1000 amp 480 volt bus duct 50 feet from the machine,
 etc.

  
 Well, at some point it should become a discussion where the cost of
 switching the drives out for something that can tolerate a softer regulated
 power supply source is becoming one possible solution. I expect that Johns
 location, way off the main line, will account for the first 1.5% of that 3%
 budget.  Thats item 1.  Item 2 is the cost, and the 24/7 power used to
 power a ferroresonant regulator such as a Sola that big is a measurable
 percentage of his monthly power bill. They run HOT, he could heat the shop
 with it in cooler weather.  But unlike the fans and/or AC, you can't turn
 them off when you don't need the heat.  They are also frequency sensitive,
 enough so that driving it from the diesel generator is out unless it has a
 .5% governor and double the size needed.

 Those drives in that size range obviously aren't cheap.  IMO, I'd be
 looking for parts to take his raw single phase, working into a full wave
 bridge rectifier, with a serious choke to maintain the power factor to
 something reasonable, and feed that into a switchmode regulator whose
 output was the 600 volt DC bus the rest of it needs.  With proper design it
 is at least as efficient as the 60 HZ transformer, as its transformer is
 ferrite cored and running at 30 kilohertz, and probably moreso, and could
 hold that 600 volt buss at 600 with 0.01% regulation despite the startup
 sags it would impose on the input line.  And it shouldn't cost, if such a
 beast is even available, any more than one of those 611 drives.



 The 611 infeed/power supply has a ribbon cable connection to the rest of
 the drive bus and it communicates with the other modules, so it is very
 much a smart drive system.   If would be a major effort to make up a new
 infeed unit and create the control signals to keep the rest of the
 modules happy.  The communications on the ribbon cable is proprietary.
  
 I assumed that the ribbon cable did this...

 So the availability of such a beast might be the controlling factor.
  
 One thing is for sure Dave, if I was 50 years younger and contemplating the
 purchase of a machine that had these drives it it, I would certainly
 discount my bid by the amount of headache this thread has become to John.


 Bigger used 3 phase CNC machines oftentimes go for a lot less money than
 slightly smaller CNC machines that run of single phase and this is
 why.   It has been a while, but I got the impression that John got that
 machine at a very good price.

  
 I paid $6k plus delivery about $750 or so and have about $3.5k in
 tooling for the beast...

 But that is the advantage

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

I can't honestly say if the lights are the same, but I'll notice from 
now on. BTW, the bottom 4 leds were lit up on the infeed unit the last 
time I checked after a fault.

The unit itself does have a fan plus a fan in the door in front of the 
611. The internal fan was pretty gummed up when I replaced the 
capacitors in the infeed unit. I'll see if I can see the fan with a 
mirror to see if it is running. The internal fan was on the heat sink 
for the mosfet's or something that looked like that.

John

On 6/3/2012 9:06 AM, Dave wrote:
 Are the lights on the infeed unit when a drive fault occurs identical to
 what you saw before?

   So now I'm thinking that there might be an actual problem in the

 infeed unit because once it starts to trip out if I reset the machine
 and start running again it trips out real fast.

 This sounds like a thermal issue.  Once it cools off it is good for a while.  
 But until it cools off it trips out immediately.

 Does your infeed unit have a fan in it?  Is it working?  If not, open the 
 cabinet and aim a room fan at the unit and see if you can get more time out 
 of it.  Or better yet attach a fan to the bottom or top of it to blow some 
 air through it.  A larger pancake type fan would work.

 If the fan in the infeed unit is working ok, the infeed waveform distortion 
 might be causing some issues in the Infeed unit, or you might have some weak 
 components.

 Sounds to me like you are close to solving these problems if you can get an 
 hour our of it.

 Still, a drive isolation transformer might clear up these problems entirely 
 (assuming the infeed unit is not malfunctioning)

 Dave







 On 6/3/2012 9:08 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 Currently with the 10hp idler and the Samson lathe running as a second
 idler and the 611 in the BP 308 on I have the voltage balanced at 245
 between all three phases give or take one volt. The VMC will make parts
 and run at 2k with full rapid speeds or ramp up with G code to 6k and
 run about an hour or so before the drive trips out. Turning off
 everything for a while and whatever caused the trip seems to mend
 itself. So now I'm thinking that there might be an actual problem in the
 infeed unit because once it starts to trip out if I reset the machine
 and start running again it trips out real fast.

 Monitoring the generated phase voltage while running and during rapid
 moves of Z I see no more than one volt variation. So that seems pretty
 stiff to me.

 The spindle and axes are all Siemens AC servos. If I changed to a VFD
 then I would loose my tool changer which would suck. I'd be more
 inclined to buy another VMC that didn't have a Siemens Simodrive 611
 than try and mod this one, then sell the Discovery 308 on flea bay. The
 sad part is I have more $ invested in BT30 tooling than I care to think
 about so that clouds the issue of getting rid of the 308 for another VMC.

 I plan on calling Siemens back to see if there is anything I might do to
 reduce the sensitivity of the drive. The one thing that sticks in the
 back of my mind is how crappy the wave form was when I removed the
 commutating reactor from the circuit... anyway a lot to wonder about.

 Thanks
 John

 On 6/2/2012 1:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:


--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

I have verified that the infeed and the spindle drive internal fans are 
working and blow air nicely out of the top. I can not however find any 
dip switches on the infeed unit. I turned on all the lights and got a 
flash light... in the manual it shows some of the units have the dip's 
on the front cover where the infeed I/O connects. My unit looks like the 
first drawing in section 6 of the manual. Is it possible the dip's are 
inside?

John

On 6/3/2012 9:44 AM, Dave wrote:
 What is your S1-3 dipswitch switch settings on the infeed module?   Do
 you have regeneration back into the line turned on?

 That might be a situation that could cause thermal issues in the infeed
 with the phase converter setup.  I think the infeed might have some big
 problems trying to regenerate into a phase converter.

 If S1-3 is off, then regeneration is enabled.  That is the default setting.

 Also S1-6 is a switch for setting the input mode on the infeed module.
 If it is on, then it is set for sinusoidal input operation ( the
 default), but if it is off that setting is for use with square wave
 input operation.  ( I have no idea why this switch exists??)
 If you call Siemens, ask them about S1-6.  Obviously square waves have
 all kinds of harmonics, and your phase converter is putting out
 distorted sine waves (with harmonics), perhaps putting the infeed into
 square wave mode would
 make it much more tolerant of line noise ??

 Or perhaps turning on square wave input mode along with disabling
 regeneration might solve your problems?

 Dave

 On 6/3/2012 9:29 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 On 6/2/2012 2:14 PM, Dave wrote:

 Unfortunately if he buys a transformer it still might not work. That
 is why I would try and borrow one before opening my wallet for $1400.

 I hope to borrow one before dumping more cash into this machine, as
 stiff as the phase converter is not I'm wondering if the infeed unit is
 weak... I did notice that my feed from the breaker panel to the RPC
 panel was a bit on the small side so I'll up the gauge on that as I have
 some 6 gauge SO cord laying about and see what that might do.


 The higher the %, the more voltage drop through the
 transformer/reactor.   So what John was saying is that the 611 system
 can use up to a 3% reactor, but no more.


 Can I assume then that when the BBLB syndrome is accounted for, that a 3%
 transformer is probably going to cost 50% more than the one yonder on the
 shelf that sells for 1.4G's or less in the size John needs?



 Meaning the 611
 expects a very stiff power supply, which really does not surprise me as
 it is a rather high performance drive system.  Most of the machines
 equipped with 611s that I have seen are serious industrial machines
 where there is a 1000 amp 480 volt bus duct 50 feet from the machine,
 etc.


 Well, at some point it should become a discussion where the cost of
 switching the drives out for something that can tolerate a softer regulated
 power supply source is becoming one possible solution. I expect that Johns
 location, way off the main line, will account for the first 1.5% of that 3%
 budget.  Thats item 1.  Item 2 is the cost, and the 24/7 power used to
 power a ferroresonant regulator such as a Sola that big is a measurable
 percentage of his monthly power bill. They run HOT, he could heat the shop
 with it in cooler weather.  But unlike the fans and/or AC, you can't turn
 them off when you don't need the heat.  They are also frequency sensitive,
 enough so that driving it from the diesel generator is out unless it has a
 .5% governor and double the size needed.

 Those drives in that size range obviously aren't cheap.  IMO, I'd be
 looking for parts to take his raw single phase, working into a full wave
 bridge rectifier, with a serious choke to maintain the power factor to
 something reasonable, and feed that into a switchmode regulator whose
 output was the 600 volt DC bus the rest of it needs.  With proper design it
 is at least as efficient as the 60 HZ transformer, as its transformer is
 ferrite cored and running at 30 kilohertz, and probably moreso, and could
 hold that 600 volt buss at 600 with 0.01% regulation despite the startup
 sags it would impose on the input line.  And it shouldn't cost, if such a
 beast is even available, any more than one of those 611 drives.



 The 611 infeed/power supply has a ribbon cable connection to the rest of
 the drive bus and it communicates with the other modules, so it is very
 much a smart drive system.   If would be a major effort to make up a new
 infeed unit and create the control signals to keep the rest of the
 modules happy.  The communications on the ribbon cable is proprietary.

 I assumed that the ribbon cable did this...

 So the availability of such a beast might be the controlling factor.

 One thing is for sure Dave, if I was 50 years younger and contemplating the
 purchase of a machine that had these drives it it, I would certainly
 discount my bid by the amount of

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

My infeed looks like Fig 6-2 on page 6-143.

John

On 6/3/2012 9:44 AM, Dave wrote:
 What is your S1-3 dipswitch switch settings on the infeed module?   Do
 you have regeneration back into the line turned on?

 That might be a situation that could cause thermal issues in the infeed
 with the phase converter setup.  I think the infeed might have some big
 problems trying to regenerate into a phase converter.

 If S1-3 is off, then regeneration is enabled.  That is the default setting.

 Also S1-6 is a switch for setting the input mode on the infeed module.
 If it is on, then it is set for sinusoidal input operation ( the
 default), but if it is off that setting is for use with square wave
 input operation.  ( I have no idea why this switch exists??)
 If you call Siemens, ask them about S1-6.  Obviously square waves have
 all kinds of harmonics, and your phase converter is putting out
 distorted sine waves (with harmonics), perhaps putting the infeed into
 square wave mode would
 make it much more tolerant of line noise ??

 Or perhaps turning on square wave input mode along with disabling
 regeneration might solve your problems?

 Dave

 On 6/3/2012 9:29 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 On 6/2/2012 2:14 PM, Dave wrote:

 Unfortunately if he buys a transformer it still might not work. That
 is why I would try and borrow one before opening my wallet for $1400.

 I hope to borrow one before dumping more cash into this machine, as
 stiff as the phase converter is not I'm wondering if the infeed unit is
 weak... I did notice that my feed from the breaker panel to the RPC
 panel was a bit on the small side so I'll up the gauge on that as I have
 some 6 gauge SO cord laying about and see what that might do.


 The higher the %, the more voltage drop through the
 transformer/reactor.   So what John was saying is that the 611 system
 can use up to a 3% reactor, but no more.


 Can I assume then that when the BBLB syndrome is accounted for, that a 3%
 transformer is probably going to cost 50% more than the one yonder on the
 shelf that sells for 1.4G's or less in the size John needs?



 Meaning the 611
 expects a very stiff power supply, which really does not surprise me as
 it is a rather high performance drive system.  Most of the machines
 equipped with 611s that I have seen are serious industrial machines
 where there is a 1000 amp 480 volt bus duct 50 feet from the machine,
 etc.


 Well, at some point it should become a discussion where the cost of
 switching the drives out for something that can tolerate a softer regulated
 power supply source is becoming one possible solution. I expect that Johns
 location, way off the main line, will account for the first 1.5% of that 3%
 budget.  Thats item 1.  Item 2 is the cost, and the 24/7 power used to
 power a ferroresonant regulator such as a Sola that big is a measurable
 percentage of his monthly power bill. They run HOT, he could heat the shop
 with it in cooler weather.  But unlike the fans and/or AC, you can't turn
 them off when you don't need the heat.  They are also frequency sensitive,
 enough so that driving it from the diesel generator is out unless it has a
 .5% governor and double the size needed.

 Those drives in that size range obviously aren't cheap.  IMO, I'd be
 looking for parts to take his raw single phase, working into a full wave
 bridge rectifier, with a serious choke to maintain the power factor to
 something reasonable, and feed that into a switchmode regulator whose
 output was the 600 volt DC bus the rest of it needs.  With proper design it
 is at least as efficient as the 60 HZ transformer, as its transformer is
 ferrite cored and running at 30 kilohertz, and probably moreso, and could
 hold that 600 volt buss at 600 with 0.01% regulation despite the startup
 sags it would impose on the input line.  And it shouldn't cost, if such a
 beast is even available, any more than one of those 611 drives.



 The 611 infeed/power supply has a ribbon cable connection to the rest of
 the drive bus and it communicates with the other modules, so it is very
 much a smart drive system.   If would be a major effort to make up a new
 infeed unit and create the control signals to keep the rest of the
 modules happy.  The communications on the ribbon cable is proprietary.

 I assumed that the ribbon cable did this...

 So the availability of such a beast might be the controlling factor.

 One thing is for sure Dave, if I was 50 years younger and contemplating the
 purchase of a machine that had these drives it it, I would certainly
 discount my bid by the amount of headache this thread has become to John.


 Bigger used 3 phase CNC machines oftentimes go for a lot less money than
 slightly smaller CNC machines that run of single phase and this is
 why.   It has been a while, but I got the impression that John got that
 machine at a very good price.


 I paid $6k plus delivery about $750 or so and have about $3.5k in
 tooling for the beast...

 But that is the

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-03 Thread Jon Elson

John Thornton wrote:
 Currently with the 10hp idler and the Samson lathe running as a second 
 idler and the 611 in the BP 308 on I have the voltage balanced at 245 
 between all three phases give or take one volt. The VMC will make parts 
 and run at 2k with full rapid speeds or ramp up with G code to 6k and 
 run about an hour or so before the drive trips out. Turning off 
 everything for a while and whatever caused the trip seems to mend 
 itself. So now I'm thinking that there might be an actual problem in the 
 infeed unit because once it starts to trip out if I reset the machine 
 and start running again it trips out real fast.

   
Ah HA!  Something is getting hot, most likely.  So, it takes an hour to 
heat up?
That suggests something massive, or possibly with a poor heat sink.
It is dangerous to work around inside the machine with 600 V DC in there.
Can you borrow a thermal camera?  otherwise, you'll need to power down
and wait for the caps to drain, and then feel for anything getting hot.
One other possibility is if it takes an hour to heat up, a modest fan might
keep everything cool enough to make it run continuously.

One other thought, you might have TWO different problems!  One is in the
infeed module, the other might be something wrong with the spindle servo
drive.  it may have a bad cooling fan or something.
 Monitoring the generated phase voltage while running and during rapid 
 moves of Z I see no more than one volt variation. So that seems pretty 
 stiff to me.

 The spindle and axes are all Siemens AC servos. If I changed to a VFD 
 then I would loose my tool changer which would suck. I'd be more 
 inclined to buy another VMC that didn't have a Siemens Simodrive 611 
 than try and mod this one, then sell the Discovery 308 on flea bay. The 
 sad part is I have more $ invested in BT30 tooling than I care to think 
 about so that clouds the issue of getting rid of the 308 for another VMC.

 I plan on calling Siemens back to see if there is anything I might do to 
 reduce the sensitivity of the drive. The one thing that sticks in the 
 back of my mind is how crappy the wave form was when I removed the 
 commutating reactor from the circuit... anyway a lot to wonder about.
   
The waveform will be crappy due to the rectifiers connecting the cap 
bank first to
this line, then to that one.  There will be large current pulses.

Have you measured the AC ripple of the DC bus?  Put a DVM on AC and see what
numbers you get under loaded conditions.

Jon

Jon

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-03 Thread Dave

Hi John,

On the top of section 6.3 in the PDF manual it says:

A switch S1 is provided on the upper side of the NE and monitoring 
module that
is used to set the following functions (for UI 5 kW on the front side):

Below that line it shows the meanings of the dipswitch settings.

The NE is the Infeed module. Siemens loves acronyms. :-(

They have two types of infeed modules the I/R module which is an 
Infeed/Regenerate module (common) and a UI module which is an 
unregulated input module (I have no idea what it is used for).

So you may have to remove your Infeed module to get to the side of it 
and see the dipswitches. They are normally set and never changed.

Regardless after reading the manual further, the only switch I would 
consider changing would be the sine wave/square wave switch but I would 
talk to Siemens tech support before doing that.

According to your part number 6SN1145-1BA00-0BA0 for your infeed, you 
have a 16 KW infeed module. Siemens is very insistent about using a 
grounded Wye feed connection on this module ( Page 7-201 ) and they 
state this
is because not using one might cause voltages to exceed the insulation 
levels of the infeed module - which of course leads to failure.

On Page 6-160 they talk about the lights on the front of the infeed 
module and what they mean. If the lower right light was on, that is 
described as:

6 LED red – DC link overvoltage
possible causes: Regenerative feedback off, setting–up operation,
line fault, for UI, PW either not operational or too small,
line supply voltage too high, dynamic overload, line filter
inserted between I/R and the commutating reactor

It looks to me that the drive is having a problem dumping excess power 
back to the power line via regeneration which happens whenever a drive 
decels quickly, and the infeed module is overheating as a result.

This is a good size drive system with a 16 KW infeed module. You must 
have some pretty healthy axis drives as well, as this machine was 
obviously meant to move fast.

On page 7-202 they talk about sizing an isolation transformer for this 
infeed module and the recommendation is something larger than 21 KVA. 
They recommend a part number and it weighs about 300 lbs which seems 
about right.

If I were you I would go hunting for either an isolation transformer if 
you want to still pursue the use of your phase converter or throw in the 
towel and find a decent generator. Even when using a generator, having 
an isolation transformer also might be a good idea just to protect the 
611 system.

I'm afraid that if you push the 611 much further without at least an 
isolation transformer something bad is going to happen and that could 
get expensive. Obviously the drive system it is already being stressed 
already - probabaly due to regeneration issues. If the drive can't 
regenerate power back into the line to dump excess energy - it only has 
one other way to get rid of that and that is for the drive system itself 
to heat up - and that will only end badly.

I looked on the web for that infeed module and the cheapest one I could 
find used was $1300 from Classic Automation.

Dave



On 6/3/2012 11:43 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 My infeed looks like Fig 6-2 on page 6-143.

 John

 On 6/3/2012 9:44 AM, Dave wrote:

 What is your S1-3 dipswitch switch settings on the infeed module?   Do
 you have regeneration back into the line turned on?

 That might be a situation that could cause thermal issues in the infeed
 with the phase converter setup.  I think the infeed might have some big
 problems trying to regenerate into a phase converter.

 If S1-3 is off, then regeneration is enabled.  That is the default setting.

 Also S1-6 is a switch for setting the input mode on the infeed module.
 If it is on, then it is set for sinusoidal input operation ( the
 default), but if it is off that setting is for use with square wave
 input operation.  ( I have no idea why this switch exists??)
 If you call Siemens, ask them about S1-6.  Obviously square waves have
 all kinds of harmonics, and your phase converter is putting out
 distorted sine waves (with harmonics), perhaps putting the infeed into
 square wave mode would
 make it much more tolerant of line noise ??

 Or perhaps turning on square wave input mode along with disabling
 regeneration might solve your problems?

 Dave

 On 6/3/2012 9:29 AM, John Thornton wrote:
  
 On 6/2/2012 2:14 PM, Dave wrote:


 Unfortunately if he buys a transformer it still might not work. That
 is why I would try and borrow one before opening my wallet for $1400.

  
 I hope to borrow one before dumping more cash into this machine, as
 stiff as the phase converter is not I'm wondering if the infeed unit is
 weak... I did notice that my feed from the breaker panel to the RPC
 panel was a bit on the small side so I'll up the gauge on that as I have
 some 6 gauge SO cord laying about and see what that might do.



 The higher the %, the more voltage

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-02 Thread Erik Christiansen

On 29.05.12 06:57, John Thornton wrote:
 There is no N connection on the transformer so I remain confused as well 
 and I'm on my second cup of joe. I didn't measure the 390v to ground but 
 I assume one leg is pretty high, but I can wander out and measure it 
 easy enough.

It is 40 years since I fooled with 3 phase in the power lab at uni, and
I've kept to digital electronics and software most of the time since, so
the following relies on dusty memories of a mix of theory and practice.

It is not unconditionally necessary to connect a fourth wire to the
neutral of a Y. For example, take the case of a simple 3 phase resistive
load. If the load is balanced, its neutral hovers near the supply's
neutral, i.e. ground. If the load is severely unbalanced, its neutral
can be (many) tens of volts off, as I found when we conducted the
experiment, by leaning on the ventilated metal cabinet of the mobile
loadbank, and was zapped. (Grumping about the inadequacy of the
loadbank's isolation from it neutral did seem to meet a view that there
were plenty more students where we came from ... and a good zap is long
remembered, I will admit.)

If the neutrals are connected, neutral current flows, and the phase
voltages are pulled into equality if the supply is low impedance.

The only critical difference between Y and delta that I can remember is
that for identical transformer or motor windings, the voltage across the
Y is 1.73¹ times what the same windings give/need in delta. (Here that
is 240 and 415 volts.)

Erik

¹ sqrt(3)

-- 
There are three principal ways to lose money: wine, women, and engineers.
While the first two are more pleasant, the third is by far the more certain.
   - Baron Rothschild, ca. 1800

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-02 Thread John Thornton

I just pulled that feed rate out of my ear, assuming if you actually 
tried to cut you would replace it with a feed rate that worked for you.

John

On 6/1/2012 5:44 PM, gene heskett wrote:
 John T.:  I did a short pass with your code, cutting 2 slots.  Feed way too
 fast, the slots were badly S shaped from bit flex.  It sure looked like a
 good idea though.  Thanks.

 Running a .7 feedrate, it is gradually straightening out the bottoms of
 the slots.  I also went down to a 45 cycle wheel with the narrowest slot
 for the one under construction now, but my calipers are telling me I'll
 have to pull the opto's together by at least 50 thou to get good
 quadrature.  Dunno if I can bend then that far or not.  We'll see when this
 one is done.  I'll see what the duty cycle is as I'd druther go up than
 down.

 Cheers, Gene

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-02 Thread John Thornton

After some checking most transformers show the percent of inductance on 
the label. Some are 2.5% some are 4.~%. Basically the 611 drive is a 
poorly designed drive as the power requirements are very strict. This 
drive wants balanced voltage and wants an unlimited supply of it now!

John

On 6/1/2012 5:52 PM, gene heskett wrote:
 On Friday, June 01, 2012 06:50:05 PM John Thornton did opine:

 I posted on the C(ommerical)NCZone and a guy there says those drives are
 rated for a 3% inductance wye isolation transformer.

 John

 BS alert there John. 3% of what?  Without a frame of reference you may as
 well be shopping for a good used car.

 Cheers, Gene

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-02 Thread Mark Wendt (Contractor)

On 6/2/2012 6:35 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 After some checking most transformers show the percent of inductance on
 the label. Some are 2.5% some are 4.~%. Basically the 611 drive is a
 poorly designed drive as the power requirements are very strict. This
 drive wants balanced voltage and wants an unlimited supply of it now!

 John

Sounds almost like my wife.

Mark

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-02 Thread gene heskett

On Saturday, June 02, 2012 06:55:30 AM John Thornton did opine:

 I just pulled that feed rate out of my ear, assuming if you actually
 tried to cut you would replace it with a feed rate that worked for you.
 
 John

The 45 I made had very poor quadrature, but the bits I ordered from MCT 
arrived when it was about 1/2 done and that generated some nice straight 
slots.  I had ordered a 5 pack of 1mm's and a 5 pack of 1/32 (0.3125).  I  
had a 53% duty cycle with the 45.  So I set up, using the backplot, 
adjusting that code's slot count until I had what looked should be good 
quadrature and adjusted the slot lengths so that a straight line Y move of 
.400 from the X centered on a slot about 3 down from the index, passed 
thru the center of the index slot, and .800 up from the starting point was 
sitting about 1/4 of a blank below the slot 3 up from the index.  That 
turned out to be 50 slots.  With the much stiffer pcb mills, and with the 
difficulty in centering this .018 thick alu on the spindle tail, I will 
cut the next one at 50 slots, from the brass plate as its thick enough to 
ride the top of that thread in the spindle  stay centered much better.

It turns out that with the opto's in a straight line mount, on .4 centers, 
the slot lengths for the AB circle are about .020 less if the slot is to 
pass the center of it over the opto's as I had, with the longer slots, to 
set the opto's inward in order to get the AB ring out of the index channel.
This was putting the AB opto's at the inward, and more distorted from bit 
flex ends of the AB slots.  So I'll put a 1/32 mill in when I go out today, 
put the heavier brass under the bit  give that a shot.  If encoder mode 0 
doesn't work, I can always go back to mode 1.

I am thinking part of my instability is the storage effect of the 10 uf 
filter on the output stage of Arturo's C41 interface screwing with the 
correction rates, so that will get swapped for a .1 uf mylar before I give 
up and goto mode 1 again.

I am not at all happy with the encoders velocity output characteristics, 
one of the instability items is that at low speeds, it doesn't output 
anything at under 2 or 3 rps!  Then it kicks in and bangs the hell out of 
things, regardless of what I set the min-velocity pin to, including down to 
.125 last night.  .125 is well below the minimum speed I get just by 
clicking the fwd button, that is about .5 rps.  IMO I ought to get a valid 
but low velocity reading from it just by rocking the chuck by hand but I 
don't.

 On 6/1/2012 5:44 PM, gene heskett wrote:
  John T.:  I did a short pass with your code, cutting 2 slots.  Feed
  way too fast, the slots were badly S shaped from bit flex.  It sure
  looked like a good idea though.  Thanks.
  
  Running a .7 feedrate, it is gradually straightening out the bottoms
  of the slots.  I also went down to a 45 cycle wheel with the
  narrowest slot for the one under construction now, but my calipers
  are telling me I'll have to pull the opto's together by at least 50
  thou to get good quadrature.  Dunno if I can bend then that far or
  not.  We'll see when this one is done.  I'll see what the duty cycle
  is as I'd druther go up than down.

I couldn't pull them far enough.  So the experiment continues with a 50 
slot wheel and a 1/32 mill today.

Thanks John.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene
I think it's a new feature.  Don't tell anyone it was an accident.  :-)
 -- Larry Wall on s/foo/bar/eieio in 10911@jpl-
devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-02 Thread Erik Christiansen

A late reply, due to a week spent out on the farm, making sawdust
instead of swarf, and dodging a wombat who's taken up residence in the
home paddock. (He doesn't understand that he's supposed to be nocturnal,
not strolling about in the middle of the afternoon in bright sunlight.)

On 25.05.12 06:01, Dave Caroline wrote:
 Remember this is an LC network running at some amps and the current is
 not in phase with the voltage. so switching at zero volts might mean
 very high currents at that instant

Ah yes, that can complicate things a bit, due to the much higher
voltages generated if the LC network is set ringing due to those sudden
large transitions in current. The loss provided by the load ought
normally damp that severely, but on no load, it would be inadvisable to
switch capacitors, I figure. Let's look at it below, to see how the
worst risks might be avoided.

On 25.05.12 06:15, John Thornton wrote:
 Do you have an example circuit of this that I can drool over?

Sorry, no, I've never seen one for the whole problem. I was just
thinking of bits of circuit I'd put together to start to tame the design
challenge if it stood in front of me. If the alternative phase converter
approaches described downthread don't pan out, and you do want to try
switching capacitors to match various load situations, then we could
draw up schematics for elements of a design, such as the zero crossing
detector, isolated triac drive, etc. (Then it's just a matter of getting
it all to work acceptably, despite the problematic constraints. ;-))

There is ample truth in Jon's initial admonition, but with some careful
design we can avoid smoke, without a lot of hardware, or too much pain,
AFAICT. (It would probably not be a casual amateur design project,
though.)

The triacs naturally turn off at near-zero current, so would be
continuously driven, or repeatedly pulsed, while we want them on.
It would be OK to switch a capacitor out at near-zero current, since it
cannot excite inductor back-emf when switching at that point, and no
large currents result.

But with the current in each capacitor leading the voltage by something
less than 90°, choice of the quietest switch-on point is not zero
current, because that's approaching maximum voltage across the
capacitor. To avoid enormous switching currents¹, we have to either
switch a capacitor by switching in and then bridging current limiting
resistors (thus multiplying the number of triac switches needed), or
switch it in near zero voltage, which is around maximum current.

That is much less of a problem than might appear, I think. Increasing
the size of the capacitor bank at an instant when it has negligible
voltage across it does only one thing - it reduces the rate of voltage
increase per unit current on the next cycle. i.e. it moves the phase
relationship. (Which, curiously, is what we're trying to achieve. :-)

For the current zero crossing detector, a low value power resistor and
two back-to-back optocouplers plus one collector resistor suffice. The
voltage zero crossing detector differs by having a large value resistor
which is shunt rather than series connected. They are all we need for
monitoring each capacitor bank. In the FitchWConverter (appearing
downthread) there are two capacitors, and perhaps better performance
results from being able to twiddle both of them? If so, we'd need two
pairs of detectors.

And before we forget, the switched out capacitor needs to be discharged,
either by a permanent high value bleed resistor (if the RC time constant
is shorter than the minimum time before we reasonably would whack the
capacitor back in), or a lower value resistor switched across the
capacitor once it is isolated, if the phase twiddling capacitor
switching were done at a furious rate.

Pretty much all but the tiny AVRs have at least two interrupt inputs, so
we can efficiently handle the zero crossings without resort to polling,
and the 16 to 20 MIPS available in the family is an order of magnitude
more than we need for the task.

If triac gate drive is taken from the power circuit, then a cheap high
voltage opto-SSR in an 8-pin DIL package would be nifty for interface to
the microcontroller, but if drive is taken from the control circuitry,
then we'd need to generate both positive and negative drive pulses to
handle all conduction quadrants, and a small pulse transformer made from
a quite small toroid and a few inches of copper wire, would do the
trick. On-board PWM could look after that, without tying up the CPU.

The major ingredient though, is the sweat needed to change eminently
achievable to done. And I will admit that the scope for show-stopping
surprises grows both with power levels and circuit inductance. (But here
we're only switching part of the capacitance, so I believe the latter
risk is greatly mitigated.)

Sorry there's no off-the shelf circuit, but there are at least two
feasible ways to do this, I think. And with the control in software, an
implementation would be

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-02 Thread Stuart Stevenson

Heh!
Wife = transformer?
Power = money?

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 2, 2012, at 6:14 AM, Mark Wendt (Contractor) mark.we...@nrl.navy.mil 
wrote:

 On 6/2/2012 6:35 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 After some checking most transformers show the percent of inductance on
 the label. Some are 2.5% some are 4.~%. Basically the 611 drive is a
 poorly designed drive as the power requirements are very strict. This
 drive wants balanced voltage and wants an unlimited supply of it now!
 
 John
 
 Sounds almost like my wife.
 
 Mark
 
 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-02 Thread Dave

On 6/1/2012 6:52 PM, gene heskett wrote:
 On Friday, June 01, 2012 06:50:05 PM John Thornton did opine:


 I posted on the C(ommerical)NCZone and a guy there says those drives are
 rated for a 3% inductance wye isolation transformer.

 John

  
 BS alert there John. 3% of what?  Without a frame of reference you may as
 well be shopping for a good used car.

 Cheers, Gene


Gene,

It is simply power system lingo..  here is an explanation that I believe 
is correct.

http://www.control.com/thread/1026248874

The higher the %, the more voltage drop through the 
transformer/reactor.   So what John was saying is that the 611 system 
can use up to a 3% reactor, but no more.  Meaning the 611
expects a very stiff power supply, which really does not surprise me as 
it is a rather high performance drive system.  Most of the machines 
equipped with 611s that I have seen are serious industrial machines 
where there is a 1000 amp 480 volt bus duct 50 feet from the machine, etc.

Dave

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-02 Thread Dave

This drive wants balanced voltage and wants an unlimited supply of it now!

Ha ha ...   yep.

The 611 is a high performance drive system.

For comparison sakes, lets compare the 611 drive system to a hot 
motorcycle engine that has an 11.5:1 compression ratio.
You bought the motorcycle as it is a real screamer and drove it to the 
gas station and they were out of super premium 95 octane gas.

So you filled the tank with 87 octane gasahol, and now it barely runs!   :-(

I used to work for Siemens and I had to interface periodically with the 
German engineers as we tried to apply their gear to
situations in the US.   I can almost hear the German Siemens Engineers 
screaming about your situation right now.

It would go pretty much go like this:
What the h_ll are you doing with that fine 611 drive system?... it needs 
clean 3 phase power.. no junk, NO JUNK!
Single phase service... what is the problem?   Buy a good generator 
powered by a fine Mercedes diesel engine and equipped with a good
Bosch generator head and you will be all set.  Cost?  They would say you 
only pay for it once, buy the best.;-)

Of course they aren't trying to run a small business  so I entirely 
understand your situation.  :-)

However, they would not!Oh well.

Dave



On 6/2/2012 6:35 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 After some checking most transformers show the percent of inductance on
 the label. Some are 2.5% some are 4.~%. Basically the 611 drive is a
 poorly designed drive as the power requirements are very strict. This
 drive wants balanced voltage and wants an unlimited supply of it now!

 John

 On 6/1/2012 5:52 PM, gene heskett wrote:

 On Friday, June 01, 2012 06:50:05 PM John Thornton did opine:

  
 I posted on the C(ommerical)NCZone and a guy there says those drives are
 rated for a 3% inductance wye isolation transformer.

 John


 BS alert there John. 3% of what?  Without a frame of reference you may as
 well be shopping for a good used car.

 Cheers, Gene
  
 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users




--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-02 Thread gene heskett

On Saturday, June 02, 2012 11:40:14 AM Dave did opine:

 On 6/1/2012 6:52 PM, gene heskett wrote:
  On Friday, June 01, 2012 06:50:05 PM John Thornton did opine:
  I posted on the C(ommerical)NCZone and a guy there says those drives
  are rated for a 3% inductance wye isolation transformer.
  
  John
  
  BS alert there John. 3% of what?  Without a frame of reference you may
  as well be shopping for a good used car.
  
  Cheers, Gene
 
 Gene,
 
 It is simply power system lingo..  here is an explanation that I believe
 is correct.
 
 http://www.control.com/thread/1026248874
 
Which boils down to %Z = SQRT [ (%R)^2 + (%X x f/50)^2 ]
With the 50 being the frequency in HZ.

With no 'where's to define the rest of it.  This Phil Corso obviously has a 
dog in this fight as nowhere in that thread is there a full, checkable by 
anyone with a suitable set of measuring tools, explanation.  Its all 
contact me off line.  The clue about leakage reactance is valuable, but 
still at the end of the day he has done little of educational value unless 
you count the hand waving.

 The higher the %, the more voltage drop through the
 transformer/reactor.   So what John was saying is that the 611 system
 can use up to a 3% reactor, but no more.

Can I assume then that when the BBLB syndrome is accounted for, that a 3% 
transformer is probably going to cost 50% more than the one yonder on the 
shelf that sells for 1.4G's or less in the size John needs?

 Meaning the 611
 expects a very stiff power supply, which really does not surprise me as
 it is a rather high performance drive system.  Most of the machines
 equipped with 611s that I have seen are serious industrial machines
 where there is a 1000 amp 480 volt bus duct 50 feet from the machine,
 etc.

Well, at some point it should become a discussion where the cost of 
switching the drives out for something that can tolerate a softer regulated 
power supply source is becoming one possible solution. I expect that Johns 
location, way off the main line, will account for the first 1.5% of that 3% 
budget.  Thats item 1.  Item 2 is the cost, and the 24/7 power used to 
power a ferroresonant regulator such as a Sola that big is a measurable 
percentage of his monthly power bill. They run HOT, he could heat the shop 
with it in cooler weather.  But unlike the fans and/or AC, you can't turn 
them off when you don't need the heat.  They are also frequency sensitive, 
enough so that driving it from the diesel generator is out unless it has a 
.5% governor and double the size needed.

Those drives in that size range obviously aren't cheap.  IMO, I'd be 
looking for parts to take his raw single phase, working into a full wave 
bridge rectifier, with a serious choke to maintain the power factor to 
something reasonable, and feed that into a switchmode regulator whose 
output was the 600 volt DC bus the rest of it needs.  With proper design it 
is at least as efficient as the 60 HZ transformer, as its transformer is 
ferrite cored and running at 30 kilohertz, and probably moreso, and could 
hold that 600 volt buss at 600 with 0.01% regulation despite the startup 
sags it would impose on the input line.  And it shouldn't cost, if such a 
beast is even available, any more than one of those 611 drives.

So the availability of such a beast might be the controlling factor.

One thing is for sure Dave, if I was 50 years younger and contemplating the 
purchase of a machine that had these drives it it, I would certainly 
discount my bid by the amount of headache this thread has become to John.  

But that is the advantage of hindsight.  ;-)  What we need to do now is 
find a solution that Just Works(TM).  The use of the limit2 module 
functioning as a digital miller integrator to control the start up speed 
ramp up, and the delta/wye isolation transformer, which will add its 3 or 
4% to the mix, might be the best solution for John.  How that will fare if 
a big inch face mill is installed remains to be determined.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene


--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-02 Thread Jon Elson

gene heskett wrote:


 Well, at some point it should become a discussion where the cost of 
 switching the drives out for something that can tolerate a softer regulated 
 power supply source is becoming one possible solution.
Well, this seems premature.  This machine ALMOST works.  I have not 
looked at the
docs link that John posted, so I don't know how much detail is there on 
the fault logic.
There may be a couple ways to attack this, but it would help to know 
what fault is
being sensed.  If there is a phase fault sensor, I might just hot-wire 
it out.  if there
is a DC bus low sensor, I might see about changing a resistor or 
adjustment to make
it a little less sensitive.  Also, possibly, increase the size of the 
filter cap bank a
bit to make it dip less.

What is the spindle motor (AC, DC)?  Is it controlled by an analog 10 V 
command?
Would it be possible to run the spindle off a conventional VFD or DC 
drive, and
separate it from the servo axis drives?

Jon

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-02 Thread Dave

On 6/2/2012 12:41 PM, gene heskett wrote:
 On Saturday, June 02, 2012 11:40:14 AM Dave did opine:


 On 6/1/2012 6:52 PM, gene heskett wrote:
  
 On Friday, June 01, 2012 06:50:05 PM John Thornton did opine:

 I posted on the C(ommerical)NCZone and a guy there says those drives
 are rated for a 3% inductance wye isolation transformer.

 John
  
 BS alert there John. 3% of what?  Without a frame of reference you may
 as well be shopping for a good used car.

 Cheers, Gene

 Gene,

 It is simply power system lingo..  here is an explanation that I believe
 is correct.

 http://www.control.com/thread/1026248874

  
 Which boils down to %Z = SQRT [ (%R)^2 + (%X x f/50)^2 ]
 With the 50 being the frequency in HZ.

 With no 'where's to define the rest of it.  This Phil Corso obviously has a
 dog in this fight as nowhere in that thread is there a full, checkable by
 anyone with a suitable set of measuring tools, explanation.  Its all
 contact me off line.  The clue about leakage reactance is valuable, but
 still at the end of the day he has done little of educational value unless
 you count the hand waving.



The only purpose I have used the % impedance for before is when I was 
doing short circuit studies on big auto plants so we could try and 
coordinate circuit breakers and make sure they were big enough to break 
a dead short..
We usually did not worry about a too high % impedance since the supply 
to the plant was extremely stiff.  We were usually But in Johns case the 
lower the % impedance the better, but that directly translates into cost.

Unfortunately if he buys a transformer it still might not work.   That 
is why I would try and borrow one before opening my wallet for $1400.


 The higher the %, the more voltage drop through the
 transformer/reactor.   So what John was saying is that the 611 system
 can use up to a 3% reactor, but no more.
  
 Can I assume then that when the BBLB syndrome is accounted for, that a 3%
 transformer is probably going to cost 50% more than the one yonder on the
 shelf that sells for 1.4G's or less in the size John needs?


 Meaning the 611
 expects a very stiff power supply, which really does not surprise me as
 it is a rather high performance drive system.  Most of the machines
 equipped with 611s that I have seen are serious industrial machines
 where there is a 1000 amp 480 volt bus duct 50 feet from the machine,
 etc.
  
 Well, at some point it should become a discussion where the cost of
 switching the drives out for something that can tolerate a softer regulated
 power supply source is becoming one possible solution. I expect that Johns
 location, way off the main line, will account for the first 1.5% of that 3%
 budget.  Thats item 1.  Item 2 is the cost, and the 24/7 power used to
 power a ferroresonant regulator such as a Sola that big is a measurable
 percentage of his monthly power bill. They run HOT, he could heat the shop
 with it in cooler weather.  But unlike the fans and/or AC, you can't turn
 them off when you don't need the heat.  They are also frequency sensitive,
 enough so that driving it from the diesel generator is out unless it has a
 .5% governor and double the size needed.

 Those drives in that size range obviously aren't cheap.  IMO, I'd be
 looking for parts to take his raw single phase, working into a full wave
 bridge rectifier, with a serious choke to maintain the power factor to
 something reasonable, and feed that into a switchmode regulator whose
 output was the 600 volt DC bus the rest of it needs.  With proper design it
 is at least as efficient as the 60 HZ transformer, as its transformer is
 ferrite cored and running at 30 kilohertz, and probably moreso, and could
 hold that 600 volt buss at 600 with 0.01% regulation despite the startup
 sags it would impose on the input line.  And it shouldn't cost, if such a
 beast is even available, any more than one of those 611 drives.



The 611 infeed/power supply has a ribbon cable connection to the rest of 
the drive bus and it communicates with the other modules, so it is very 
much a smart drive system.   If would be a major effort to make up a new 
infeed unit and create the control signals to keep the rest of the 
modules happy.  The communications on the ribbon cable is proprietary.


So the availability of such a beast might be the controlling factor.
 One thing is for sure Dave, if I was 50 years younger and contemplating the
 purchase of a machine that had these drives it it, I would certainly
 discount my bid by the amount of headache this thread has become to John.


Bigger used 3 phase CNC machines oftentimes go for a lot less money than 
slightly smaller CNC machines that run of single phase and this is 
why.   It has been a while, but I got the impression that John got that 
machine at a very good price.


 But that is the advantage of hindsight.  ;-)  What we need to do now is
 find a solution that Just Works(TM).

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

No wonder that file takes so long it makes one pass at the OD then 
rapids to a slot makes one pass then rapids to the next slot... then 
rapids to the holes then rapids to the ID. And wow is it complicated and 
full of neat code. It would make much more sense from a machining view 
point to cut each slot fully then move to the next slot then change 
tools and drill the mounting holes and with a larger end mill cut out 
the center and OD of the part. The beauty of Lawrence's file is that it 
is completely configurable.

How in the world do you hold the material to machine ID, OD, slots, and 
holes at the same time?

If I had to make that part and I might one day, I'd drill the holes then 
mill the ID. Then I'd prepare a mounting plate with a boss the size of 
the ID then bolt the disk down and mill the slots and the OD.

By duty cycle does that mean the  width of the slot verses the width 
between the slots?

John

On 5/31/2012 10:43 PM, gene heskett wrote:
 On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:29:49 PM John Thornton did opine:

 Are you tapering the slots so the edges are perpendicular to the center?
 That was I believe the general idea, John.

 I have the next one about 1/3rd done, but the run time is nearly 4 hours as
 I had to slow it because I could see the bit flexing a few thou.  When my
 back gave out just now I hit the pause button while the bit was at SafeZ,
 put the spindle controller in manual at zero speed, blew that last passes
 oil  debris off it, its looking great, and turned off the lights for the
 night.

 BTW, 60 slots with the subroutine is a piece of cake. If you can come up
 with the code to do one slot I can paste it in my subroutine and send it
 back.

 John
 There's stuff in it that isn't now used, but I just put a copy of whats
 running right now on my web page, under Genes-os9-stf/eagle/genes-
 encoder.ngc

 Part of the run time is the sheet is warping when I cut off a piece, so I
 have to use a total cut depth that is about 2.5x as thick as the alu, and
 let it nibble on the oil soaked oak sacrificial pad under it.

 Thanks John.

 Cheers, Gene

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

That is some interesting code for sure and I can understand why it takes 
so long making one pass over the whole thing with a tiny bit and lots of 
rapid moves. It would be better from a machining view to do the OD and 
ID with a larger endmill and drill the mounting holes then switch to the 
tiny one to make the slots.

It appears the slot sides are perpendicular to the center of the disk. 
If your A and B sensors are mounted in a straight line the off and on 
times will be a bit different between A and B if I'm understanding this 
correctly. Of course Z won't matter.

I still think the slots could be done with less than 30 lines of code 
and using rotate. One bad thing I noticed is the arcs are using radius 
which is known to not be perfect in some cases.

On 5/31/2012 10:43 PM, gene heskett wrote:
 On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:29:49 PM John Thornton did opine:

 Are you tapering the slots so the edges are perpendicular to the center?
 That was I believe the general idea, John.

 I have the next one about 1/3rd done, but the run time is nearly 4 hours as
 I had to slow it because I could see the bit flexing a few thou.  When my
 back gave out just now I hit the pause button while the bit was at SafeZ,
 put the spindle controller in manual at zero speed, blew that last passes
 oil  debris off it, its looking great, and turned off the lights for the
 night.

 BTW, 60 slots with the subroutine is a piece of cake. If you can come up
 with the code to do one slot I can paste it in my subroutine and send it
 back.

 John
 There's stuff in it that isn't now used, but I just put a copy of whats
 running right now on my web page, under Genes-os9-stf/eagle/genes-
 encoder.ngc

 Part of the run time is the sheet is warping when I cut off a piece, so I
 have to use a total cut depth that is about 2.5x as thick as the alu, and
 let it nibble on the oil soaked oak sacrificial pad under it.

 Thanks John.

 Cheers, Gene

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

Gene,

I used debug to capture the path of the first slot and put it into my 
subroutine. Run the following in sim and see what you think. Even at F2 
and 0.001 DOC one slot only takes a smidgen over 2 minutes to cut in my 
sim.

F2
T1 M6 G43
#z-final = -0.025
#z-step  = 0.001
G0 X1.1 Y0 Z0.05
#current-r = 0
G10 L2 P1 R#current-r
o100 repeat [60]
   G0 X1.15 Y0
   G1 X1.093745 Y-0.003410 Z0
   o110 while [#5422 GT #z-final]
 G1 X1.093745 Y-0.003410 Z[#5422 - #z-step]
 G3 X1.093747 Y0.002728 R1.09375
 G1 X1.183744 Y0.003611
 G2 X1.183744 Y-0.003611 R1.18375
 G1 X1.093747 Y-0.002728
   o110 endwhile
G0 Z0.05
X0 Y0
#current-r = [#current-r + 6]
G10 L2 P1 R#current-r
o100 endrepeat
M2


--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

On Friday, June 01, 2012 07:20:37 AM John Thornton did opine:

 No wonder that file takes so long it makes one pass at the OD

:) To check fixture clearances.

 then
 rapids to a slot makes one pass then rapids to the next slot... then
 rapids to the holes then rapids to the ID. And wow is it complicated and
 full of neat code. It would make much more sense from a machining view
 point to cut each slot fully then move to the next slot then change
 tools

This spindle is #2 morse collets, loosen drawbar about 2 turns, beat it 
loose with a piece of steel. Hard on bearings.  The only fixed length is 
the rings on the drills, so my tool changing z accuracy if I change the 
collet to fit the bigger mill, really needs my autoz code. Unforch, without 
making a melamine jig to insulate the whole thing, that's out.  It uses 
G38.2 for that.  This way its all done with one z home  one bit if I don't 
break it...

 and drill the mounting holes and with a larger end mill cut out
 the center and OD of the part. The beauty of Lawrence's file is that it
 is completely configurable.

Almost, I've added about 6 or 8 more vars so it is considerable more 
adjustable.  Lawrence's original code is also available on the net.  If you 
need that for comparison I'll dig up the bookmark.
 
 How in the world do you hold the material to machine ID, OD, slots, and
 holes at the same time?

Clamps on each of the 4 corners. Because this stuff is so thin, I've 
considered making a jig fastened to the table, then using one of the 
leftovers in 1/16 brass as an overlaying holddown with its own bolts to 
hold the stuff flat while machining.  That could also serve as a dam to 
hold cutting oil in place a bit better, as it is, it creeps away and has to 
be replenished about 2x a loop thru the main loop.  If I see debris stuff 
on the bit when it goes to safeZ, its time for more oil.  I have made a 
mister that could keep the swarf blown away, but even with the shop door 
open, it turns into a glasses fogging fog of oil in there in about 30 
minutes.  And my lungs don't need that safflower oil in them either.

This between the clamps warpage is why I have to start about 15 thou high, 
and run to about 10 thou into the 1/4 oak sacrificial its clamped down to.  
It wasn't near the problem with 1/16 brass, but with a #60 drill it would 
be 2-3 days to carve because the brass tends to work harden.  I've already 
broke about $50 in these bits, but if I don't push them, they'll cut with a 
0.0025 touch forever in alu if I keep an oil film on the work to seal out 
the oxygen.  A higher speed spindle would help, this one is tapped out at 
2500.  Right now the 'touch' is about 0.0032, so I've dropped the feed 
override to about 75% where I don't see the bit flexing as much.  Time I 
have, accuracy is whats needed.  I only have to do it once IF I get it 
right.  Keyword=right...

 If I had to make that part and I might one day, I'd drill the holes then
 mill the ID. Then I'd prepare a mounting plate with a boss the size of
 the ID then bolt the disk down and mill the slots and the OD.

I've considered that. If I was to make them for sale I'd at least make a 
better holddown jig.  In my case, a mini lathe, the mounting holes could be 
dispensed with as the finished disk is trapped between the spindles preload 
adjusting nut, and an identical locking nut.  So the concentricity demands 
means that center hole is -0.000 to +0.002 max.  It's about right when I 
have to fuss a bit to get it over the threads and seated against the 
preload but.  At the diameter of that bolt circle the bolts would interface 
with the locknuts.  So if to actually be used, the bolt circle would need 
enlarged but the limit there is when the bolts or rivets hit the center, 
index pulse generating interrupter.  There isn't a lot of room to play in 
that area. :) 
 
 By duty cycle does that mean the  width of the slot verses the width
 between the slots?

Yes, exactly, in order to get a 50% duty square wave.  Lawrence's original 
cut at 50% with a /2.0 there, no comp for opto aperture.  Besides, mulls 
are quite a bit faster then divides for the computer.  My last attempt was 
at .45, and it was about 60/40 high/low since the opto's don't have an 
infinitely small aperture.  Lawrence's original code also tapered the index 
slot, but the placement of it at the same fixed width made the inner end of 
the AB slot wider at slot 0, big bump in encoder velocity output. Spindle 
goes whump whump as that slot went by the opto's out of time.  Not good.  
Listen to Z going crazy when running a G76, sounds like its being run by 
pink noise!

Thanks John

Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene
Man's horizons are bounded by his vision.

--
Live Security

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor



On 6/1/2012 7:28 AM, gene heskett wrote:
 On Friday, June 01, 2012 07:20:37 AM John Thornton did opine:

 No wonder that file takes so long it makes one pass at the OD
 :) To check fixture clearances.

 then
 rapids to a slot makes one pass then rapids to the next slot... then
 rapids to the holes then rapids to the ID. And wow is it complicated and
 full of neat code. It would make much more sense from a machining view
 point to cut each slot fully then move to the next slot then change
 tools
 This spindle is #2 morse collets, loosen drawbar about 2 turns, beat it
 loose with a piece of steel. Hard on bearings.  The only fixed length is
 the rings on the drills, so my tool changing z accuracy if I change the
 collet to fit the bigger mill, really needs my autoz code. Unforch, without
 making a melamine jig to insulate the whole thing, that's out.  It uses
 G38.2 for that.  This way its all done with one z home  one bit if I don't
 break it...
Yea, for multiple tools have multiple G code files, set Z run one to 
completion, change tools set Z ...
 and drill the mounting holes and with a larger end mill cut out
 the center and OD of the part. The beauty of Lawrence's file is that it
 is completely configurable.
 Almost, I've added about 6 or 8 more vars so it is considerable more
 adjustable.  Lawrence's original code is also available on the net.  If you
 need that for comparison I'll dig up the bookmark.
That's ok your rendition was interesting enough to look at...

 How in the world do you hold the material to machine ID, OD, slots, and
 holes at the same time?
 Clamps on each of the 4 corners. Because this stuff is so thin, I've
 considered making a jig fastened to the table, then using one of the
 leftovers in 1/16 brass as an overlaying holddown with its own bolts to
 hold the stuff flat while machining.  That could also serve as a dam to
 hold cutting oil in place a bit better, as it is, it creeps away and has to
 be replenished about 2x a loop thru the main loop.  If I see debris stuff
 on the bit when it goes to safeZ, its time for more oil.  I have made a
 mister that could keep the swarf blown away, but even with the shop door
 open, it turns into a glasses fogging fog of oil in there in about 30
 minutes.  And my lungs don't need that safflower oil in them either.

 This between the clamps warpage is why I have to start about 15 thou high,
 and run to about 10 thou into the 1/4 oak sacrificial its clamped down to.
 It wasn't near the problem with 1/16 brass, but with a #60 drill it would
 be 2-3 days to carve because the brass tends to work harden.  I've already
 broke about $50 in these bits, but if I don't push them, they'll cut with a
 0.0025 touch forever in alu if I keep an oil film on the work to seal out
 the oxygen.  A higher speed spindle would help, this one is tapped out at
 2500.  Right now the 'touch' is about 0.0032, so I've dropped the feed
 override to about 75% where I don't see the bit flexing as much.  Time I
 have, accuracy is whats needed.  I only have to do it once IF I get it
 right.  Keyword=right...

 If I had to make that part and I might one day, I'd drill the holes then
 mill the ID. Then I'd prepare a mounting plate with a boss the size of
 the ID then bolt the disk down and mill the slots and the OD.
 I've considered that. If I was to make them for sale I'd at least make a
 better holddown jig.  In my case, a mini lathe, the mounting holes could be
 dispensed with as the finished disk is trapped between the spindles preload
 adjusting nut, and an identical locking nut.  So the concentricity demands
 means that center hole is -0.000 to +0.002 max.  It's about right when I
 have to fuss a bit to get it over the threads and seated against the
 preload but.  At the diameter of that bolt circle the bolts would interface
 with the locknuts.  So if to actually be used, the bolt circle would need
 enlarged but the limit there is when the bolts or rivets hit the center,
 index pulse generating interrupter.  There isn't a lot of room to play in
 that area. :)

 By duty cycle does that mean the  width of the slot verses the width
 between the slots?
 Yes, exactly, in order to get a 50% duty square wave.  Lawrence's original
 cut at 50% with a /2.0 there, no comp for opto aperture.  Besides, mulls
 are quite a bit faster then divides for the computer.  My last attempt was
 at .45, and it was about 60/40 high/low since the opto's don't have an
 infinitely small aperture.  Lawrence's original code also tapered the index
 slot, but the placement of it at the same fixed width made the inner end of
 the AB slot wider at slot 0, big bump in encoder velocity output. Spindle
 goes whump whump as that slot went by the opto's out of time.  Not good.
 Listen to Z going crazy when running a G76, sounds like its being run by
 pink noise!
Pink Floyd noise! The subroutine I cobbled up could be done in the same 
way with all the variables. The radius of the arcs at the end of the 
slot is

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

On Friday, June 01, 2012 08:50:05 AM John Thornton did opine:

 Gene,
 
 I used debug to capture the path of the first slot and put it into my
 subroutine. Run the following in sim and see what you think. Even at F2
 and 0.001 DOC one slot only takes a smidgen over 2 minutes to cut in my
 sim.
 
 F2
 T1 M6 G43
 #z-final = -0.025
 #z-step  = 0.001
 G0 X1.1 Y0 Z0.05
 #current-r = 0
 G10 L2 P1 R#current-r
 o100 repeat [60]
G0 X1.15 Y0
G1 X1.093745 Y-0.003410 Z0
o110 while [#5422 GT #z-final]
  G1 X1.093745 Y-0.003410 Z[#5422 - #z-step]
  G3 X1.093747 Y0.002728 R1.09375
  G1 X1.183744 Y0.003611
  G2 X1.183744 Y-0.003611 R1.18375
  G1 X1.093747 Y-0.002728
o110 endwhile
 G0 Z0.05
 X0 Y0
 #current-r = [#current-r + 6]
 G10 L2 P1 R#current-r
 o100 endrepeat
 M2
 
Printed.  I'll likely put in some named vars if I use it, but I'll give it 
a shot as is after the current one is finished.

Thanks a bunch, John.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene
Absolutely nothing should be concluded from these figures except that
no conclusion can be drawn from them.
-- Joseph L. Brothers, Linux/PowerPC Project)

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

On Friday, June 01, 2012 08:59:21 AM John Thornton did opine:

 On 6/1/2012 7:28 AM, gene heskett wrote:
  On Friday, June 01, 2012 07:20:37 AM John Thornton did opine:
  No wonder that file takes so long it makes one pass at the OD
  
  :) To check fixture clearances.
  :
  then
  rapids to a slot makes one pass then rapids to the next slot... then
  rapids to the holes then rapids to the ID. And wow is it complicated
  and full of neat code. It would make much more sense from a
  machining view point to cut each slot fully then move to the next
  slot then change tools
  
  This spindle is #2 morse collets, loosen drawbar about 2 turns, beat
  it loose with a piece of steel. Hard on bearings.  The only fixed
  length is the rings on the drills, so my tool changing z accuracy if
  I change the collet to fit the bigger mill, really needs my autoz
  code. Unforch, without making a melamine jig to insulate the whole
  thing, that's out.  It uses G38.2 for that.  This way its all done
  with one z home  one bit if I don't break it...
 
 Yea, for multiple tools have multiple G code files, set Z run one to
 completion, change tools set Z ...
 
  and drill the mounting holes and with a larger end mill cut out
  the center and OD of the part. The beauty of Lawrence's file is that
  it is completely configurable.
  
  Almost, I've added about 6 or 8 more vars so it is considerable more
  adjustable.  Lawrence's original code is also available on the net. 
  If you need that for comparison I'll dig up the bookmark.
 
 That's ok your rendition was interesting enough to look at...
 
  How in the world do you hold the material to machine ID, OD, slots,
  and holes at the same time?
  
  Clamps on each of the 4 corners. Because this stuff is so thin, I've
  considered making a jig fastened to the table, then using one of the
  leftovers in 1/16 brass as an overlaying holddown with its own bolts
  to hold the stuff flat while machining.  That could also serve as a
  dam to hold cutting oil in place a bit better, as it is, it creeps
  away and has to be replenished about 2x a loop thru the main loop. 
  If I see debris stuff on the bit when it goes to safeZ, its time for
  more oil.  I have made a mister that could keep the swarf blown away,
  but even with the shop door open, it turns into a glasses fogging fog
  of oil in there in about 30 minutes.  And my lungs don't need that
  safflower oil in them either.
  
  This between the clamps warpage is why I have to start about 15 thou
  high, and run to about 10 thou into the 1/4 oak sacrificial its
  clamped down to. It wasn't near the problem with 1/16 brass, but
  with a #60 drill it would be 2-3 days to carve because the brass
  tends to work harden.  I've already broke about $50 in these bits,
  but if I don't push them, they'll cut with a 0.0025 touch forever in
  alu if I keep an oil film on the work to seal out the oxygen.  A
  higher speed spindle would help, this one is tapped out at 2500. 
  Right now the 'touch' is about 0.0032, so I've dropped the feed
  override to about 75% where I don't see the bit flexing as much. 
  Time I have, accuracy is whats needed.  I only have to do it once IF
  I get it right.  Keyword=right...
  
  If I had to make that part and I might one day, I'd drill the holes
  then mill the ID. Then I'd prepare a mounting plate with a boss the
  size of the ID then bolt the disk down and mill the slots and the
  OD.
  
  I've considered that. If I was to make them for sale I'd at least make
  a better holddown jig.  In my case, a mini lathe, the mounting holes
  could be dispensed with as the finished disk is trapped between the
  spindles preload adjusting nut, and an identical locking nut.  So the
  concentricity demands means that center hole is -0.000 to +0.002 max.
   It's about right when I have to fuss a bit to get it over the
  threads and seated against the preload but.  At the diameter of that
  bolt circle the bolts would interface with the locknuts.  So if to
  actually be used, the bolt circle would need enlarged but the limit
  there is when the bolts or rivets hit the center, index pulse
  generating interrupter.  There isn't a lot of room to play in that
  area. :)
  
  By duty cycle does that mean the  width of the slot verses the
  width between the slots?
  
  Yes, exactly, in order to get a 50% duty square wave.  Lawrence's
  original cut at 50% with a /2.0 there, no comp for opto aperture. 
  Besides, mulls are quite a bit faster then divides for the computer. 
  My last attempt was at .45, and it was about 60/40 high/low since the
  opto's don't have an infinitely small aperture.  Lawrence's original
  code also tapered the index slot, but the placement of it at the same
  fixed width made the inner end of the AB slot wider at slot 0, big
  bump in encoder velocity output. Spindle goes whump whump as that
  slot went by the opto's out of time.  Not good. Listen to Z going
  crazy when running a G76, sounds like its

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-01 Thread Greg Bernard

Gene-
You could hold your stock down easily with super glue and then use acetone to 
release it like this: 
http://millpcbs.com/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=19Itemid=63 .

 
+++
We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for 
fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy -- sun, 
wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. 
What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal 
run out before we tackle that. -Thomas Edison, inventor (1847-1931) 




 From: gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net 
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2012 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor
 
On Friday, June 01, 2012 07:20:37 AM John Thornton did opine:

 No wonder that file takes so long it makes one pass at the OD

:) To check fixture clearances.

 then
 rapids to a slot makes one pass then rapids to the next slot... then
 rapids to the holes then rapids to the ID. And wow is it complicated and
 full of neat code. It would make much more sense from a machining view
 point to cut each slot fully then move to the next slot then change
 tools

This spindle is #2 morse collets, loosen drawbar about 2 turns, beat it 
loose with a piece of steel. Hard on bearings.  The only fixed length is 
the rings on the drills, so my tool changing z accuracy if I change the 
collet to fit the bigger mill, really needs my autoz code. Unforch, without 
making a melamine jig to insulate the whole thing, that's out.  It uses 
G38.2 for that.  This way its all done with one z home  one bit if I don't 
break it...

 and drill the mounting holes and with a larger end mill cut out
 the center and OD of the part. The beauty of Lawrence's file is that it
 is completely configurable.

Almost, I've added about 6 or 8 more vars so it is considerable more 
adjustable.  Lawrence's original code is also available on the net.  If you 
need that for comparison I'll dig up the bookmark.

 How in the world do you hold the material to machine ID, OD, slots, and
 holes at the same time?

Clamps on each of the 4 corners. Because this stuff is so thin, I've 
considered making a jig fastened to the table, then using one of the 
leftovers in 1/16 brass as an overlaying holddown with its own bolts to 
hold the stuff flat while machining.  That could also serve as a dam to 
hold cutting oil in place a bit better, as it is, it creeps away and has to 
be replenished about 2x a loop thru the main loop.  If I see debris stuff 
on the bit when it goes to safeZ, its time for more oil.  I have made a 
mister that could keep the swarf blown away, but even with the shop door 
open, it turns into a glasses fogging fog of oil in there in about 30 
minutes.  And my lungs don't need that safflower oil in them either.

This between the clamps warpage is why I have to start about 15 thou high, 
and run to about 10 thou into the 1/4 oak sacrificial its clamped down to.  
It wasn't near the problem with 1/16 brass, but with a #60 drill it would 
be 2-3 days to carve because the brass tends to work harden.  I've already 
broke about $50 in these bits, but if I don't push them, they'll cut with a 
0.0025 touch forever in alu if I keep an oil film on the work to seal out 
the oxygen.  A higher speed spindle would help, this one is tapped out at 
2500.  Right now the 'touch' is about 0.0032, so I've dropped the feed 
override to about 75% where I don't see the bit flexing as much.  Time I 
have, accuracy is whats needed.  I only have to do it once IF I get it 
right.  Keyword=right...

 If I had to make that part and I might one day, I'd drill the holes then
 mill the ID. Then I'd prepare a mounting plate with a boss the size of
 the ID then bolt the disk down and mill the slots and the OD.

I've considered that. If I was to make them for sale I'd at least make a 
better holddown jig.  In my case, a mini lathe, the mounting holes could be 
dispensed with as the finished disk is trapped between the spindles preload 
adjusting nut, and an identical locking nut.  So the concentricity demands 
means that center hole is -0.000 to +0.002 max.  It's about right when I 
have to fuss a bit to get it over the threads and seated against the 
preload but.  At the diameter of that bolt circle the bolts would interface 
with the locknuts.  So if to actually be used, the bolt circle would need 
enlarged but the limit there is when the bolts or rivets hit the center, 
index pulse generating interrupter.  There isn't a lot of room to play in 
that area. :) 

 By duty cycle does that mean the  width of the slot verses the width
 between the slots?

Yes, exactly, in order to get a 50% duty square wave.  Lawrence's original 
cut at 50% with a /2.0 there, no comp for opto aperture.  Besides, mulls 
are quite a bit faster then divides for the computer.  My last attempt

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

I posted on the C(ommerical)NCZone and a guy there says those drives are 
rated for a 3% inductance wye isolation transformer.

John

On 5/31/2012 3:20 PM, Dave wrote:
 They really don't have to be, but they should probably both be larger
 than 10 KVA.  If you have one that was 30 KVA and another that was
 10KVA, I wouldn't hesitate to hook them together for a test.

 Although if you can trip out your 611 with only the spindle running and
 ramping up slowly,  even a couple of 7.5 KVA transformers would probably
 prove out the situation one way or another.

 Dave

 On 5/31/2012 3:15 PM, John Thornton wrote:
 I might be able to scrounge another 240-480 transformer and put it with
 the one I have to get back to 240... do you think they need to be
 similar in size?

 John

 On 5/31/2012 11:28 AM, Dave wrote:

 Looks to me like it is more like a $1264 question.  ;-)

 I don't know.   That's why I would try and borrow one first.

 Know of any plants where you do work that has a spare transformer lying
 around?

 I've put a couple of them together before to get the right voltage..  IE
 240 to 480 and then 480 to 380 etc.

 Dave

 On 5/31/2012 12:06 PM, John Thornton wrote:

 I just ran another program to drill and tap a slew of holes in a 1/2
 steel plate with no problems except for I picked the 5/16-18 tap and
 drill for the 1/4-20 holes and proceeded to tap all 8 of them at the 20
 TPI pitch... no biggie I'll tap them out to 3/8 and plug them and tap
 them over again.

 $64 question will the isolation transformer do the same thing the 7.5hp
 spindle motor is doing on the Samson?

 John

 On 5/31/2012 9:43 AM, Dave wrote:


 You are probably right. When the drive load surges it is likely faulting
 out on what it thinks is a lost phase or phase undervoltage.

 It might be interesting is to run this test again and put a clamp on
 ammeter on each leg feeding your Mill and see how balanced the currents
 are.

 I have never really had any problem with my phase converter running
 loads so I haven't paid much attention to it, but I think I only have
 run capacitors connected between one phase and the made up phase.   I
 know I don't have any
 between both of the two original phases.   I was always more concerned
 about the current balance between phases than voltages.   The voltages
 have always been  within reason ( as I recall ).   But then this is one
 of those things that I don't pay much attention to unless it isn't 
 working.

 I suspect that the 611 is expecting a stiff power supply - which most 3
 phase services can provide.  If you have a large pulley you can attach
 to your phase converter motor shaft to add inertia to the rotor, you
 might want to attach it.  It would help the motor supply surge current
 to the 611 drive.

 Dave



 On 5/31/2012 10:04 AM, John Thornton wrote:


 A little update this morning after last night's experiments I built on
 that a bit this morning. I upped the MFD's on the B-C and A-C caps a
 little at a time till I got close to what I think I wanted in voltage.
 This is what I ended up with...

 Phase ===   A-BB-CA-C
 Caps   50MFD  100MFD 220MFd
 RFC on 246v   263v   271v
 Samson @440 RPM246v   247v   249v
 611 Drive on   245v   243v   241v
 Engraving @6k RPM  244v   243v   234v

 I grabbed a program at random an it turned out to be engraving my
 company logo at 6k RPM. Now mind you this was not 0 to 6k but 0 to 2k
 with a 0.09 second pause between 100 RPM increases up to 6k. To my
 surprise the program ran to the end without a fault including rapids at
 295IPM on the Z axis. When I go to town I'm going to snatch up a few
 more caps to play with and bump up A-C a bit more to try and even it
 out. This will at least allow me to make parts for the time being until
 I either get an isolation transformer or generator. The interesting
 thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611
 on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain
 to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out
 the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to
 showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the
 wave form when this happens.

 Thanks for all the help and ideas.

 John

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users




 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-01 Thread Joseph Chiu

Hi,
I'm a complete newb on this particular topic, and may not have read
all the fine details, but it seems like this might be something better
suited to photoresist/chemical etching, rather than using bits to try
to mill out the interruptor disks?  Or perhaps laser cut sheets, like
the kinds used for solder stencils, would also do the job?
Cheers,
Joseph

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-01 Thread andy pugh

On 1 June 2012 21:19, Joseph Chiu joec...@joechiu.com wrote:

 I'm a complete newb on this particular topic, and may not have read
 all the fine details, but it seems like this might be something better
 suited to photoresist/chemical etching, rather than using bits to try
 to mill out the interruptor disks?  Or perhaps laser cut sheets, like
 the kinds used for solder stencils, would also do the job?

I can say that solder stencil manufacturers can certainly make very
nice encoders, for a price.
https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/CNCUnsorted#5746547530954320162
512 slots, 45mm bore.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

On Friday, June 01, 2012 06:18:41 PM Greg Bernard did opine:

 Gene-
 You could hold your stock down easily with super glue and then use
 acetone to release it like this:
 http://millpcbs.com/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=19Ite
 mid=63 .

I personally have not had that great an experience at getting superglue to 
let go with acetone.  Once set by the moisture in my skin, a stuck 
fingertip is half an hours work.  And required far more effort than this 
.018 thin alu could stand without bending it up pretty good.

I did get the 60 slot wheel done, but its not possible to have 60 slots AND 
a slot narrow enough for a 50% duty cycle output.

And despite a freshly done backlash adjustment for xy, I find this teensie 
bit wanting to crawl in the direction of the side that is cutting, at 
feedrates of 4 to 6 and .0015 DOC.  So I've restarted it after the first 
.014 down with a feedrate of .7.  Properties says it now has a 909 minute 
runtime, but it is gradually straightening out the S curve in what is 
supposed to be a straight line.  Dig cutting, if that doesn't fix it, I go 
to climb cutting I guess.

John T.:  I did a short pass with your code, cutting 2 slots.  Feed way too 
fast, the slots were badly S shaped from bit flex.  It sure looked like a 
good idea though.  Thanks.

Running a .7 feedrate, it is gradually straightening out the bottoms of 
the slots.  I also went down to a 45 cycle wheel with the narrowest slot 
for the one under construction now, but my calipers are telling me I'll 
have to pull the opto's together by at least 50 thou to get good 
quadrature.  Dunno if I can bend then that far or not.  We'll see when this 
one is done.  I'll see what the duty cycle is as I'd druther go up than 
down.

Here is a strange observance though, in halscope, encoder.0.velocity is not 
responding to spindle rotation at all until the spindle is up to at least 
1.5 to 2 rps!  Below that, nothing at any gain.  Weirdsville. I don't 
recall buying a ticket to this sideshow. ;)
 
Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene
The more complex the mind, the greater the need for the simplicity of play.
-- Kirk, Shore Leave, stardate 3025.8

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-01 Thread andy pugh

On 1 June 2012 23:44, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote:

 I personally have not had that great an experience at getting superglue to
 let go with acetone.

I glued in my encoder disc (see earlier picture) then found I needed
it out again.

Luckily heating to 200C released it, with no damage. And that was only
0.15mm thick.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-01 Thread dave

On Fri, 1 Jun 2012 13:19:24 -0700
Joseph Chiu joec...@joechiu.com wrote:

 Hi,
 I'm a complete newb on this particular topic, and may not have read
 all the fine details, but it seems like this might be something better
 suited to photoresist/chemical etching, rather than using bits to try
 to mill out the interruptor disks?  Or perhaps laser cut sheets, like
 the kinds used for solder stencils, would also do the job?
 Cheers,
 Joseph
 
If I wanted to make a lot of them I'd mill a master out of Cu and then
ECM (electrochemical machine) them. Works rather well. Low
distortion. 
I once saw a portable ecm designed to mill holes (actually cut a disc
out of) the side of unexploded ordnance in S.E Asia. ;-)

Dave

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
 Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the
 latest in malware threats.
 http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___ Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

On Friday, June 01, 2012 06:50:05 PM John Thornton did opine:

 I posted on the C(ommerical)NCZone and a guy there says those drives are
 rated for a 3% inductance wye isolation transformer.
 
 John
 
BS alert there John. 3% of what?  Without a frame of reference you may as 
well be shopping for a good used car.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene
I can't understand why a person will take a year or two to write a
novel when he can easily buy one for a few dollars.
-- Fred Allen

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

On Friday, June 01, 2012 07:00:33 PM Joseph Chiu did opine:

 Hi,
 I'm a complete newb on this particular topic, and may not have read
 all the fine details, but it seems like this might be something better
 suited to photoresist/chemical etching, rather than using bits to try
 to mill out the interruptor disks?  Or perhaps laser cut sheets, like
 the kinds used for solder stencils, would also do the job?
 Cheers,
 Joseph
 
Unforch, no laser.  But yes it might work.

Thanks Joseph.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene
It is only with the heart one can see clearly; what is essential is
invisible to the eye.
-- The Fox, 'The Little Prince

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

On Friday, June 01, 2012 07:03:18 PM andy pugh did opine:

 On 1 June 2012 23:44, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote:
  I personally have not had that great an experience at getting
  superglue to let go with acetone.
 
 I glued in my encoder disc (see earlier picture) then found I needed
 it out again.
 
 Luckily heating to 200C released it, with no damage. And that was only
 0.15mm thick.

Yes, that works well at 250C and up, but that is not at all friendly to 
other organics, like skin. :-)

Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene
It is only with the heart one can see clearly; what is essential is
invisible to the eye.
-- The Fox, 'The Little Prince

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-01 Thread dave

On Fri, 1 Jun 2012 19:04:23 -0400
gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote:

 On Friday, June 01, 2012 07:03:18 PM andy pugh did opine:
 
  On 1 June 2012 23:44, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote:
   I personally have not had that great an experience at getting
   superglue to let go with acetone.
  
  I glued in my encoder disc (see earlier picture) then found I needed
  it out again.
  
  Luckily heating to 200C released it, with no damage. And that was
  only 0.15mm thick.
 
 Yes, that works well at 250C and up, but that is not at all friendly
 to other organics, like skin. :-)
 
 Cheers, Gene

cyanoacrylics bond to almost anything but are reluctant to unbond
without help. Well, you are cooked at  250 F so another milder method
is recommended. :-)
The stuff will  hydrolyze so very warm water may help. However, be aware
that it makes a good surgical glues. 

Dave

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-06-01 Thread Jon Elson

gene heskett wrote:
 On Friday, June 01, 2012 06:50:05 PM John Thornton did opine:

   
 I posted on the C(ommerical)NCZone and a guy there says those drives are
 rated for a 3% inductance wye isolation transformer.

 John
 
 BS alert there John. 3% of what?  Without a frame of reference you may as 
 well be shopping for a good used car.
   
No, this is actually standard power engineering terminology.  I don't 
recall the
way this is measured, but it has a specific definition to a power EE.
The basic concept is this % inductance tells you what the fault current and
sag will be under particular loads.

But, of course, this refers to running the transformer from a stiff 
3-phase mains
supply, not a saggy rotary converter.

Jon

Jon

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

On Saturday, June 02, 2012 12:22:59 AM Jon Elson did opine:

 gene heskett wrote:
  On Friday, June 01, 2012 06:50:05 PM John Thornton did opine:
  I posted on the C(ommerical)NCZone and a guy there says those drives
  are rated for a 3% inductance wye isolation transformer.
  
  John
  
  BS alert there John. 3% of what?  Without a frame of reference you may
  as well be shopping for a good used car.
 
 No, this is actually standard power engineering terminology.  I don't
 recall the
 way this is measured, but it has a specific definition to a power EE.
 The basic concept is this % inductance tells you what the fault current
 and sag will be under particular loads.

Sounds like another way to state equivalent series impedance or as applied 
to capacitors, equivalent series resistance, or ESR.  3%, from a solid 3 
phase source wouldn't be so bad, but from a saggy RPC? 1% would be better, 
but would take more copper  higher priced iron.

 But, of course, this refers to running the transformer from a stiff
 3-phase mains
 supply, not a saggy rotary converter.
 
 Jon

Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene
Much of the excitement we get out of our work is that we don't really
know what we are doing.
-- E. Dijkstra

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-05-31 Thread andy pugh

On 31 May 2012 02:29, fritz fritzli...@gmail.com wrote:

 As an electrician, I should now interject that a neutral should only be
 bonded at the point of distribution (the breaker panel or upstream
 transformer).

The point we are discussing grounding is equivalent to the transformer
you mention, I think.

In this installation there is no ground associated with the power phases.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

That's a good idea, I don't hang out at the Zone any more but it's worth 
a shot.

John

On 5/30/2012 9:02 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
 John Thornton wrote:
From the tone of the tech's voice he hears this problem a lot with 611
 drive and rotary phase converters.


 Well, have you checked on CNCZone for any experiences with this system?
 maybe somebody there knows how to fix this problem.  there are some VERY
 savvy machine techs there who have faced all sorts of crazy problems.

 Jon

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

As an electrician I would agree with you normally. When you leave the 
world of power distribution and enter the world of electronics the 
rules might change. In any case I know Andy was just pulling my leg.

John

On 5/30/2012 8:29 PM, fritz wrote:
 On 05/29/2012 12:07 PM, andy pugh wrote:
 On 29 May 2012 17:00, John Thorntonbjt...@gmail.com   wrote:
 N to each X is.1 ohm
 X to X is .2 ohm
 That sounds like the tapping you needed.

 I would say earth it, put on rubber boots, rubber gloves and operate
 the machine with a long, dry stick :-)

 As an electrician, I should now interject that a neutral should only be
 bonded at the point of distribution (the breaker panel or upstream
 transformer).  Grounding a neutral anywhere else makes for strange
 problems and stray currents on the ground.  People often falsely assume
 electricity takes the path of least resistance - according to Ohm's law,
 it follows ALL paths in a parallel circuit.

 But hey, it's your cat and you can pick it up by the tail if you want.

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

Interestingly I had a bit of time last night and did some more voltage 
measurements with various bits turned on to load the RPC.

RPC only running AB=245 BC=253 AC=253
With the BP 308 (Simodrive 611) powered up AB=245 BC=245 AC=245
With the Samson 7.5hp manual lathe spindle at 660 RPM AB=244 BC=232
Adding the 308's spindle at 1000 RPM AB=244 BC=234 AC=229
Ramping up to 3000 RPM on the 308's spindle AB=244 BC=234 AC=227

So it appears I need to do a bit more tuning with the caps as the load 
is dragging down the voltage on the generated leg. Interestingly with 
the Samson running the BP 308 would start from 0 to a higher RPM than 
with it off even though the voltage had been pulled down by the Samson's 
spindle.

I also tried adjusting some of the pots on the 611 spindle drive with no 
conclusive results from that experiment.

I did hear back from the transformer guy Gene gave me the link to. Seems 
to be a fair price so I'll investigate that more as well as look at the 
diesel generator next week and do some more tuning on the RPC.

Hi John,
The cost for a 240 VAC 30A 3-phase isolation transformer is $1250.  
Factory lead time is approximately 4-5 weeks.
If you need any additional information or would like to order the unit, 
please feel to contact me by phone or email.
Regards,
Jeff
Jeff Weinberg
Harbach Electronics, LLC

John

On 5/30/2012 2:58 PM, Dave wrote:
 I think the reason why they want a grounded neutral is to keep the phase
 voltages controlled relative to a ground reference.

 The drive chassis usually has several large ground lugs on it which are
 suppose to be tied to earth ground as would be the neutral.

 An ungrounded Delta power system can get out of control relative to
 earth ground.  For instance, if for some reason one leg of a Delta goes
 to ground, the other two legs rise to a voltage equal to the line to
 line voltage away from ground.  If you get an intermittent short between
 one Delta leg and ground, the voltages can swing all over the place
 relative to ground.
 That stresses any parts in the drive system which are referenced to
 frame ground.   Back in the early 90's Siemens had one line of VFDs that
 had big problems blowing DC link capacitors.   I was told that was
 because they were being used on ungrounded delta systems (used to be
 very common in industrial plants in the US) and if the Delta power
 source got out of wack, the capacitors would see high voltages to ground
 and explode.   I saw a couple of them that literally blew apart the
 drive.  That line of VFDs was short lived and  they quickly changed
 their design.

  From the tone of the tech's voice he hears this problem a lot with 611
 drive and rotary phase converters.

 The 611 drives are very popular. Many machine manufacturers used them for 
 many years.  Those guys have pretty much heard it all.

 Dave



 On 5/30/2012 3:19 PM, John Thornton wrote:
 When we ran the generator we connected the 3 hots as usual and I don't
 recall if we grounded it or not. I only had 3 connectors large enough
 for the leads coming out of the generator so I'm sure we didn't connect
 the ground to the neutral of the generator.

 http://cache.automation.siemens.com/dnl_iis/DA/DA0NDQz_59401543_HB/PJU_0212_en.pdf

 In that manual after a fault I have 4 status LED's lit up. On page 6-143
 the bottom 4 LED's are lit. Which one caused the fault I can't tell.

 The machine schematic does not show a neutral connected at the stepup
 transformer and the infeed unit doesn't even have a neutral connection
 and neither does the machine.

From the tone of the tech's voice he hears this problem a lot with 611
 drive and rotary phase converters.

 John

 On 5/30/2012 1:12 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

 John Thornton wrote:

 I just got off the phone with Siemens tech support and Our systems
 don't run well on phase converters.

 Well, given the way this system works, I'm not surprised by his comment.
 But, it is fairly close.  You need to get into it and see WHICH trip it is
 getting.  There probably are several different sensing circuits
 (over-voltage,
 under-voltage, lost phase, etc.)  and knowing which one is the source of the
 trip should be VERY helpful.  Right now you are flying blind, not
 knowing whether
 it needs more or less voltage, etc.

 was the main theme of the
 conversation as well as we can't run on a Delta system because we need
 the ground reference I think he said.


 But, does the machine bring out the neutral?  I think you said it does
 not, so
 his comment does not make sense.  Well, given the way this system works, I'm
 not surprised by

 Additionally he suggested a Delta to WYE step up transformer with
 grounded secondaries between the RPC and the 611

 Well, if there's no neutral brought out, that doesn't make sense.  If it
 is SUPPOSED
 to have the neutral connected, and the wire has been removed when it was
 supposed to be connected, then suddenly, a LOT of things start to make
 sense.

 If it needs a neutral

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

On Thursday, May 31, 2012 07:34:36 AM John Thornton did opine:

 Interestingly I had a bit of time last night and did some more voltage
 measurements with various bits turned on to load the RPC.
 
 RPC only running AB=245 BC=253 AC=253
 With the BP 308 (Simodrive 611) powered up AB=245 BC=245 AC=245
 With the Samson 7.5hp manual lathe spindle at 660 RPM AB=244 BC=232
 Adding the 308's spindle at 1000 RPM AB=244 BC=234 AC=229
 Ramping up to 3000 RPM on the 308's spindle AB=244 BC=234 AC=227

The phase angles are shifting some.  And the sag might mean you would have 
to go back to the 15 horse idler for the RPC.  You said it was noisy, would 
fresh bearings help?  OTOH, if its an open frame Ajax, they howl like fire 
sirens anyway.

A 15 horse water pump we had as a backup at KXNE-TV, easily added 30 db to 
the noise level as it wasted at least a horse on internal cooling fans.  I 
didn't think much of it, but it did get 1000 or more running hours without 
problems while we ordered up and installed seal kits in the other, much 
quieter pump.  Klystron amplifiers need about 70 GPM of cooling water each 
when at full beam current, so between the 2 we were moving about 120 GPM.  
You don't scrimp on cooling those at $150,000 per cooling failure. A 3 
phase Heineman breaker single phased the pump, I recognized the sound and 
my hand was about 1/2 way to the kill button when the building entrance 
breaker, 1200 amps/phase, went down like a 8 gage shotgun  left me 
standing in the dark to contemplate my sins.  One klystron full of water 
where it should have had a very good vacuum.  The beam ate a hole in the 
anode bucket in less than a second.  That of course crow barred the 20 kv 
beam supply, and things all went to hell from there. They had to call in a 
quorum of the unicameral legislature to buy me a replacement.

How hot is the 10HP running after an hour with both loads on it?
 
 So it appears I need to do a bit more tuning with the caps as the load
 is dragging down the voltage on the generated leg. Interestingly with
 the Samson running the BP 308 would start from 0 to a higher RPM than
 with it off even though the voltage had been pulled down by the Samson's
 spindle.

Things that make you go humm.
 
 I also tried adjusting some of the pots on the 611 spindle drive with no
 conclusive results from that experiment.
 
 I did hear back from the transformer guy Gene gave me the link to. Seems
 to be a fair price so I'll investigate that more as well as look at the
 diesel generator next week and do some more tuning on the RPC.
 
 Hi John,
 The cost for a 240 VAC 30A 3-phase isolation transformer is $1250.
 Factory lead time is approximately 4-5 weeks.
 If you need any additional information or would like to order the unit,
 please feel to contact me by phone or email.
 Regards,
 Jeff
 Jeff Weinberg
 Harbach Electronics, LLC
 
 John

When you asked for the quote, did you include some extra primary taps so 
that a 5 to 10% step up/down could be done?  That could turn out to be 
handier than sliced bread or bottled beer. There will be a cost associated 
with the taps of course.  Whomever I talked to before, seemed to be a 
decent sort.  And the stuff is top quality in my experience.

[...]

Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene
Alex Haley was adopted!

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

I'm sure fresh bearings would help the 15hp and it is a heavy duty TEFC 
motor. I might pull it apart today and order some new ones...

I didn't measure the temperature of the 10hp and only ran a few minutes 
but I'll keep an eye on it.

I didn't ask for taps on the transformer but it won't hurt to find out 
the price. Input taps for 220 and 240?

How is the encoder disk coming along?

John

On 5/31/2012 7:21 AM, gene heskett wrote:
 On Thursday, May 31, 2012 07:34:36 AM John Thornton did opine:

 Interestingly I had a bit of time last night and did some more voltage
 measurements with various bits turned on to load the RPC.

 RPC only running AB=245 BC=253 AC=253
 With the BP 308 (Simodrive 611) powered up AB=245 BC=245 AC=245
 With the Samson 7.5hp manual lathe spindle at 660 RPM AB=244 BC=232
 Adding the 308's spindle at 1000 RPM AB=244 BC=234 AC=229
 Ramping up to 3000 RPM on the 308's spindle AB=244 BC=234 AC=227
 The phase angles are shifting some.  And the sag might mean you would have
 to go back to the 15 horse idler for the RPC.  You said it was noisy, would
 fresh bearings help?  OTOH, if its an open frame Ajax, they howl like fire
 sirens anyway.

 A 15 horse water pump we had as a backup at KXNE-TV, easily added 30 db to
 the noise level as it wasted at least a horse on internal cooling fans.  I
 didn't think much of it, but it did get 1000 or more running hours without
 problems while we ordered up and installed seal kits in the other, much
 quieter pump.  Klystron amplifiers need about 70 GPM of cooling water each
 when at full beam current, so between the 2 we were moving about 120 GPM.
 You don't scrimp on cooling those at $150,000 per cooling failure. A 3
 phase Heineman breaker single phased the pump, I recognized the sound and
 my hand was about 1/2 way to the kill button when the building entrance
 breaker, 1200 amps/phase, went down like a 8 gage shotgun  left me
 standing in the dark to contemplate my sins.  One klystron full of water
 where it should have had a very good vacuum.  The beam ate a hole in the
 anode bucket in less than a second.  That of course crow barred the 20 kv
 beam supply, and things all went to hell from there. They had to call in a
 quorum of the unicameral legislature to buy me a replacement.

 How hot is the 10HP running after an hour with both loads on it?

 So it appears I need to do a bit more tuning with the caps as the load
 is dragging down the voltage on the generated leg. Interestingly with
 the Samson running the BP 308 would start from 0 to a higher RPM than
 with it off even though the voltage had been pulled down by the Samson's
 spindle.
 Things that make you go humm.

 I also tried adjusting some of the pots on the 611 spindle drive with no
 conclusive results from that experiment.

 I did hear back from the transformer guy Gene gave me the link to. Seems
 to be a fair price so I'll investigate that more as well as look at the
 diesel generator next week and do some more tuning on the RPC.

 Hi John,
 The cost for a 240 VAC 30A 3-phase isolation transformer is $1250.
 Factory lead time is approximately 4-5 weeks.
 If you need any additional information or would like to order the unit,
 please feel to contact me by phone or email.
 Regards,
 Jeff
 Jeff Weinberg
 Harbach Electronics, LLC

 John
 When you asked for the quote, did you include some extra primary taps so
 that a 5 to 10% step up/down could be done?  That could turn out to be
 handier than sliced bread or bottled beer. There will be a cost associated
 with the taps of course.  Whomever I talked to before, seemed to be a
 decent sort.  And the stuff is top quality in my experience.

 [...]

 Cheers, Gene

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-05-31 Thread ceenbot

I also replaced my 15HP TEFC bearings with a pair from ebay.  Been quiet ever 
since.  The fan-end bearing was frozen and the balls were gliding on a grease 
film against the inner race.  It was noisy so I finally swapped them out.


Dennis


  ---Original Message---
  From: John Thornton bjt...@gmail.com
  To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
  Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor
  Sent: May 31 '12 07:51
  
  I'm sure fresh bearings would help the 15hp and it is a heavy duty TEFC
  motor. I might pull it apart today and order some new ones...

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

A little update this morning after last night's experiments I built on 
that a bit this morning. I upped the MFD's on the B-C and A-C caps a 
little at a time till I got close to what I think I wanted in voltage. 
This is what I ended up with...

Phase === A-BB-CA-C
Caps   50MFD  100MFD 220MFd
RFC on 246v   263v   271v
Samson @440 RPM246v   247v   249v
611 Drive on   245v   243v   241v
Engraving @6k RPM  244v   243v   234v

I grabbed a program at random an it turned out to be engraving my 
company logo at 6k RPM. Now mind you this was not 0 to 6k but 0 to 2k 
with a 0.09 second pause between 100 RPM increases up to 6k. To my 
surprise the program ran to the end without a fault including rapids at 
295IPM on the Z axis. When I go to town I'm going to snatch up a few 
more caps to play with and bump up A-C a bit more to try and even it 
out. This will at least allow me to make parts for the time being until 
I either get an isolation transformer or generator. The interesting 
thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611 
on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain 
to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out 
the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to 
showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the 
wave form when this happens.

Thanks for all the help and ideas.

John

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

You are probably right. When the drive load surges it is likely faulting 
out on what it thinks is a lost phase or phase undervoltage.

It might be interesting is to run this test again and put a clamp on 
ammeter on each leg feeding your Mill and see how balanced the currents 
are.

I have never really had any problem with my phase converter running 
loads so I haven't paid much attention to it, but I think I only have 
run capacitors connected between one phase and the made up phase.   I 
know I don't have any
between both of the two original phases.   I was always more concerned 
about the current balance between phases than voltages.   The voltages 
have always been  within reason ( as I recall ).   But then this is one 
of those things that I don't pay much attention to unless it isn't working.

I suspect that the 611 is expecting a stiff power supply - which most 3 
phase services can provide.  If you have a large pulley you can attach 
to your phase converter motor shaft to add inertia to the rotor, you 
might want to attach it.  It would help the motor supply surge current 
to the 611 drive.

Dave



On 5/31/2012 10:04 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 A little update this morning after last night's experiments I built on
 that a bit this morning. I upped the MFD's on the B-C and A-C caps a
 little at a time till I got close to what I think I wanted in voltage.
 This is what I ended up with...

 Phase ===  A-BB-CA-C
 Caps   50MFD  100MFD 220MFd
 RFC on 246v   263v   271v
 Samson @440 RPM246v   247v   249v
 611 Drive on   245v   243v   241v
 Engraving @6k RPM  244v   243v   234v

 I grabbed a program at random an it turned out to be engraving my
 company logo at 6k RPM. Now mind you this was not 0 to 6k but 0 to 2k
 with a 0.09 second pause between 100 RPM increases up to 6k. To my
 surprise the program ran to the end without a fault including rapids at
 295IPM on the Z axis. When I go to town I'm going to snatch up a few
 more caps to play with and bump up A-C a bit more to try and even it
 out. This will at least allow me to make parts for the time being until
 I either get an isolation transformer or generator. The interesting
 thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611
 on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain
 to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out
 the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to
 showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the
 wave form when this happens.

 Thanks for all the help and ideas.

 John

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users




--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-05-31 Thread ceenbot

Hi Dave,

I have not found that the rotary phase converter slows in RPM during high low 
demands as it is still an asynchronous AC motor and is there is no torque 
demand on the motor shaft.  I don't think a flywheel would help here.  If it 
were physically connected to a 3-ph generator it would be another story and the 
15HP motor would look more like a 10HP from a shaft stand point when run from 
single phase.

A larger rotary phase converter would help though.  Sounds like your machine is 
sensitive enough that a 25-40HP rotary phase motor may be be necessary to get 
the impedance closer to that of the grid.  Adding more 3-phase motors to the 
system lowers the impedance of the WYE and helps to stabilize the wild leg as 
demonstrated with the lathe motor.  I'm entertaining the thought of adding a 
15HP motor to mine if I find a cheap one.


Dennis


  ---Original Message---
  From: Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com
  To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
  Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor
  Sent: May 31 '12 09:43
  
  You are probably right. When the drive load surges it is likely faulting
  out on what it thinks is a lost phase or phase undervoltage.
  
  It might be interesting is to run this test again and put a clamp on
  ammeter on each leg feeding your Mill and see how balanced the currents
  are.
  
  I have never really had any problem with my phase converter running
  loads so I haven't paid much attention to it, but I think I only have
  run capacitors connected between one phase and the made up phase.   I
  know I don't have any
  between both of the two original phases.   I was always more concerned
  about the current balance between phases than voltages.   The voltages
  have always been  within reason ( as I recall ).   But then this is one
  of those things that I don't pay much attention to unless it isn't working.
  
  I suspect that the 611 is expecting a stiff power supply - which most 3
  phase services can provide.  If you have a large pulley you can attach
  to your phase converter motor shaft to add inertia to the rotor, you
  might want to attach it.  It would help the motor supply surge current
  to the 611 drive.
  
  Dave
  
  

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-05-31 Thread Kirk Wallace

On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 10:08 -0500, ceen...@in-front.com wrote:
... snip
 I have not found that the rotary phase converter slows in RPM during
 high low demands as it is still an asynchronous AC motor ...
... snip

It's the velocity variation during a revolution that comes into play,
although I haven't measured this so I can't back this up with data.
Since only one phase produces momentum, the two generated phases draw
energy from the rotating mass and slow it down. Increasing rotating mass
increases the amount of energy available and should also increase the
amount of input current capacity to replace the converted energy.
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

I've caused my 10hp to grunt with a big load and it appears to slow 
down then get back up to speed. I've drawn my 3hp RPC down so far the 
potential relay kicked the start caps back in... it was at that point I 
knew I could not run my Enco in high speed from the 3hp RPC. The 15hp 
has a sizable 6 belt pulley as a flywheel and I've never heard it grunt 
when applying a load.

On 5/31/2012 10:45 AM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
 On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 10:08 -0500, ceen...@in-front.com wrote:
 ... snip
 I have not found that the rotary phase converter slows in RPM during
 high low demands as it is still an asynchronous AC motor ...
 ... snip

 It's the velocity variation during a revolution that comes into play,
 although I haven't measured this so I can't back this up with data.
 Since only one phase produces momentum, the two generated phases draw
 energy from the rotating mass and slow it down. Increasing rotating mass
 increases the amount of energy available and should also increase the
 amount of input current capacity to replace the converted energy.

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

I just ran another program to drill and tap a slew of holes in a 1/2 
steel plate with no problems except for I picked the 5/16-18 tap and 
drill for the 1/4-20 holes and proceeded to tap all 8 of them at the 20 
TPI pitch... no biggie I'll tap them out to 3/8 and plug them and tap 
them over again.

$64 question will the isolation transformer do the same thing the 7.5hp 
spindle motor is doing on the Samson?

John

On 5/31/2012 9:43 AM, Dave wrote:
 You are probably right. When the drive load surges it is likely faulting
 out on what it thinks is a lost phase or phase undervoltage.

 It might be interesting is to run this test again and put a clamp on
 ammeter on each leg feeding your Mill and see how balanced the currents
 are.

 I have never really had any problem with my phase converter running
 loads so I haven't paid much attention to it, but I think I only have
 run capacitors connected between one phase and the made up phase.   I
 know I don't have any
 between both of the two original phases.   I was always more concerned
 about the current balance between phases than voltages.   The voltages
 have always been  within reason ( as I recall ).   But then this is one
 of those things that I don't pay much attention to unless it isn't working.

 I suspect that the 611 is expecting a stiff power supply - which most 3
 phase services can provide.  If you have a large pulley you can attach
 to your phase converter motor shaft to add inertia to the rotor, you
 might want to attach it.  It would help the motor supply surge current
 to the 611 drive.

 Dave



 On 5/31/2012 10:04 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 A little update this morning after last night's experiments I built on
 that a bit this morning. I upped the MFD's on the B-C and A-C caps a
 little at a time till I got close to what I think I wanted in voltage.
 This is what I ended up with...

 Phase ===   A-BB-CA-C
 Caps   50MFD  100MFD 220MFd
 RFC on 246v   263v   271v
 Samson @440 RPM246v   247v   249v
 611 Drive on   245v   243v   241v
 Engraving @6k RPM  244v   243v   234v

 I grabbed a program at random an it turned out to be engraving my
 company logo at 6k RPM. Now mind you this was not 0 to 6k but 0 to 2k
 with a 0.09 second pause between 100 RPM increases up to 6k. To my
 surprise the program ran to the end without a fault including rapids at
 295IPM on the Z axis. When I go to town I'm going to snatch up a few
 more caps to play with and bump up A-C a bit more to try and even it
 out. This will at least allow me to make parts for the time being until
 I either get an isolation transformer or generator. The interesting
 thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611
 on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain
 to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out
 the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to
 showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the
 wave form when this happens.

 Thanks for all the help and ideas.

 John

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

My phase converter is based on a 10 hp, 200 volt 3 phase motor (odd 
voltage, but it was cheap).

I have a 10 hp 3 phase compressor that I run once in a while off that 
phase converter and when the starter on the compressor kicks in the 
phase converter slows noticably and almost grunts..  With smaller motors 
the effect is not noticeable.

A spinning 3 phase asynchronous motor will act as a generator briefly 
when a load (like a another motor) is placed on the same line.That 
is why a rotary phase converter is preferable to a static phase 
converter.

The rotary phase converter rotors flywheel effect helps start up the 
motor you are trying to start.

I used to do short circuit and breaker coordination studies on General 
Motors electrical power systems ( my college thesis was on that subject 
- this was just after the stone age) and spinning motors contributes 
greatly to short circuit currents during a system fault as they all turn 
into generators temporarily and pump current/power back into the power 
lines.

Dave

On 5/31/2012 11:08 AM, ceen...@in-front.com wrote:
 Hi Dave,

 I have not found that the rotary phase converter slows in RPM during high low 
 demands as it is still an asynchronous AC motor and is there is no torque 
 demand on the motor shaft.  I don't think a flywheel would help here.  If it 
 were physically connected to a 3-ph generator it would be another story and 
 the 15HP motor would look more like a 10HP from a shaft stand point when run 
 from single phase.

 A larger rotary phase converter would help though.  Sounds like your machine 
 is sensitive enough that a 25-40HP rotary phase motor may be be necessary to 
 get the impedance closer to that of the grid.  Adding more 3-phase motors to 
 the system lowers the impedance of the WYE and helps to stabilize the wild 
 leg as demonstrated with the lathe motor.  I'm entertaining the thought of 
 adding a 15HP motor to mine if I find a cheap one.


 Dennis



   ---Original Message---
   From: Davee...@dc9.tzo.com
   To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
   Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor
   Sent: May 31 '12 09:43

   You are probably right. When the drive load surges it is likely faulting
   out on what it thinks is a lost phase or phase undervoltage.

   It might be interesting is to run this test again and put a clamp on
   ammeter on each leg feeding your Mill and see how balanced the currents
   are.

   I have never really had any problem with my phase converter running
   loads so I haven't paid much attention to it, but I think I only have
   run capacitors connected between one phase and the made up phase.   I
   know I don't have any
   between both of the two original phases.   I was always more concerned
   about the current balance between phases than voltages.   The voltages
   have always been  within reason ( as I recall ).   But then this is one
   of those things that I don't pay much attention to unless it isn't working.

   I suspect that the 611 is expecting a stiff power supply - which most 3
   phase services can provide.  If you have a large pulley you can attach
   to your phase converter motor shaft to add inertia to the rotor, you
   might want to attach it.  It would help the motor supply surge current
   to the 611 drive.

   Dave


  
 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

Looks to me like it is more like a $1264 question.  ;-)

I don't know.   That's why I would try and borrow one first.

Know of any plants where you do work that has a spare transformer lying 
around?

I've put a couple of them together before to get the right voltage..  IE 
240 to 480 and then 480 to 380 etc.

Dave

On 5/31/2012 12:06 PM, John Thornton wrote:
 I just ran another program to drill and tap a slew of holes in a 1/2
 steel plate with no problems except for I picked the 5/16-18 tap and
 drill for the 1/4-20 holes and proceeded to tap all 8 of them at the 20
 TPI pitch... no biggie I'll tap them out to 3/8 and plug them and tap
 them over again.

 $64 question will the isolation transformer do the same thing the 7.5hp
 spindle motor is doing on the Samson?

 John

 On 5/31/2012 9:43 AM, Dave wrote:

 You are probably right. When the drive load surges it is likely faulting
 out on what it thinks is a lost phase or phase undervoltage.

 It might be interesting is to run this test again and put a clamp on
 ammeter on each leg feeding your Mill and see how balanced the currents
 are.

 I have never really had any problem with my phase converter running
 loads so I haven't paid much attention to it, but I think I only have
 run capacitors connected between one phase and the made up phase.   I
 know I don't have any
 between both of the two original phases.   I was always more concerned
 about the current balance between phases than voltages.   The voltages
 have always been  within reason ( as I recall ).   But then this is one
 of those things that I don't pay much attention to unless it isn't working.

 I suspect that the 611 is expecting a stiff power supply - which most 3
 phase services can provide.  If you have a large pulley you can attach
 to your phase converter motor shaft to add inertia to the rotor, you
 might want to attach it.  It would help the motor supply surge current
 to the 611 drive.

 Dave



 On 5/31/2012 10:04 AM, John Thornton wrote:
  
 A little update this morning after last night's experiments I built on
 that a bit this morning. I upped the MFD's on the B-C and A-C caps a
 little at a time till I got close to what I think I wanted in voltage.
 This is what I ended up with...

 Phase ===A-BB-CA-C
 Caps   50MFD  100MFD 220MFd
 RFC on 246v   263v   271v
 Samson @440 RPM246v   247v   249v
 611 Drive on   245v   243v   241v
 Engraving @6k RPM  244v   243v   234v

 I grabbed a program at random an it turned out to be engraving my
 company logo at 6k RPM. Now mind you this was not 0 to 6k but 0 to 2k
 with a 0.09 second pause between 100 RPM increases up to 6k. To my
 surprise the program ran to the end without a fault including rapids at
 295IPM on the Z axis. When I go to town I'm going to snatch up a few
 more caps to play with and bump up A-C a bit more to try and even it
 out. This will at least allow me to make parts for the time being until
 I either get an isolation transformer or generator. The interesting
 thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611
 on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain
 to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out
 the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to
 showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the
 wave form when this happens.

 Thanks for all the help and ideas.

 John

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
  
 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats.

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:28:24 AM John Thornton did opine:

 I'm sure fresh bearings would help the 15hp and it is a heavy duty TEFC
 motor. I might pull it apart today and order some new ones...
 
 I didn't measure the temperature of the 10hp and only ran a few minutes
 but I'll keep an eye on it.
 
 I didn't ask for taps on the transformer but it won't hurt to find out
 the price. Input taps for 220 and 240?

Since the existing autoformer has taps for 208, 220 and 240, I'd say an 
extra at 220, so you could use it for a 220 to 240 step up, or conversely 
swap primary  secondary  use it for a 240 to 220 step down would cover 
the options nicely when combined with the autoformers own taps.

The N terminal on the existing autoformer can then be taken back to neutral 
in the service, thereby forcing the secondary side to become neutral 
referenced.  If this tranny comes with N connections on both windings, the 
N connection on whatever winding is used for drive to the existing 
autoformer could also be tied to this neutral run, but that would be more 
for correctness than any real advantage since it's the N terminal of the 
OEM autoformer that counts here.

I'd check my copy of the NEC, but it's either grown legs or belonged to the 
tv station.  In any event its a '98 issue and could be obsolete.  I haven't 
stumbled over it in 3 or 4 years.

 How is the encoder disk coming along?
 
 John
 
 On 5/31/2012 7:21 AM, gene heskett wrote:

So-so. I, took that printout out there yesterday, but being somewhat fam 
with the old code, and having a supply of #58  #60 pcb drills, I massaged 
that code for the smaller bits and tried to make a 60 slot encoder, then, 
trying to get the exec time down (its about 2.75 hours with that small a 
bit) I pushed too hard  broke the last #58, so I slowed down a bit more.  
So I've broken about $35 worth of bits now to get one poorly cut disk.  I 
added a duty cycle fudge value where the original code just divided by 2.0.

Since mulls are faster, the disk I made yesterday now has a mull by 
duty_cycle, with duty cycle at .45.  Next one will be at .40 to equalize 
the opto outputs to 50%, they were about 57/43 when I put it on the lathe.

I have the A/B slot ring about correct if I reduce the duty cycle from .45 
to .40, I should get pretty close to a 50% duty cycle out of the opto 
devices.  I can bend them back and forth perhaps 10 thou to fine tune the 
quadrature timing, or adjust the slot count one way or the other by one 
count.  But I think I am going to have to dig another 5 thou deeper into 
the piece of oil soaked oak used for sacrificial in order to remove the 
last vestiges of the fact that its not an end mill, but a drill bit with 
fairly steep angles. It left a fin at the bottom of the slot.  

Going from 39 to 60 slots, I had to adjust the encoder's scale  negate it 
but that was half expected.  And I have too much gain, the speed is hunting 
about 10%.

Then, I am going to have to separate the slot cutting and inner hole cutout 
from each other in the codes looping so this thinner stuff has less 
opportunity to flex, and after fighting with the index slot, trying to 
maintain its tapered shape, it occurred to me that a simple slot perhaps a 
thou wider than the bit itself is all that needs since I don't think it 
needs a specific timeing reference the A/B slot ring. So that is the next 
change for this code. The .001 off line movement there is about the limit 
of my mill, but would be intended to assure that only one edge of the drill 
is doing the cutting. When both edges cut, the cut isn't as clean as the 
bit flexes.  I ordered another 5 pack of each bit size yesterday. $89.

Another thing that I question is the math that does the tapering of the 
slots, I have a feeling its not quite right, but cannot put my finger on 
it.  That is about a screen full of code in vim all by itself just to make 
the 5 moves that carve the slot at each depth increment, and the last 
movement should be to the origin of the end of the first movement, but 
there is a small gap when you zoom in the backplot to look at slot 0 and 
the index or to any individual slot.  The error is at least consistent 
though so should be fixable.

I haven't started on that yet for today, I need to make a trip out to get 
some blood pressure  anti-sugar pills  some groceries first.  And since 
the temps are decent, I need to fire up the weed eater  finish trimming my 
jungle too.  And when I do get to the shop, from the looks of things in the 
mills head, I need to replace one of those plastic gears, a hub is starting 
to break out and the gear rim is flopping up  down about 1/16 with 
attendant rattling noises.  There was, 10 years ago, a belt drive kit for 
this thing that gave a max rpm of 5000 but that was discoed several years 
ago.  Damnit...

If they ever get my nose cleaned up for good, I'd like to get a G0704  a 
ball screw kit for it, it would *2 my xy envelope.  Z I have lots of thanks 
to

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

On Thursday, May 31, 2012 12:53:37 PM John Thornton did opine:

 A little update this morning after last night's experiments I built on
 that a bit this morning. I upped the MFD's on the B-C and A-C caps a
 little at a time till I got close to what I think I wanted in voltage.
 This is what I ended up with...
 
 Phase === A-BB-CA-C
 Caps   50MFD  100MFD 220MFd
 RFC on 246v   263v   271v
 Samson @440 RPM246v   247v   249v
 611 Drive on   245v   243v   241v
 Engraving @6k RPM  244v   243v   234v
 
 I grabbed a program at random an it turned out to be engraving my
 company logo at 6k RPM. Now mind you this was not 0 to 6k but 0 to 2k
 with a 0.09 second pause between 100 RPM increases up to 6k. To my
 surprise the program ran to the end without a fault including rapids at
 295IPM on the Z axis. When I go to town I'm going to snatch up a few
 more caps to play with and bump up A-C a bit more to try and even it
 out. This will at least allow me to make parts for the time being until
 I either get an isolation transformer or generator. The interesting
 thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611
 on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain
 to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out
 the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to
 showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the
 wave form when this happens.
 
That is certainly progress in the right direction, John.  You can actually 
get money making work done.  And that I believe is the object of this 
exercise, is it not?

 Thanks for all the help and ideas.
 
 John

Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene
I waited and waited and when no message came I knew it must be from you.

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-05-31 Thread Jon Elson

John Thornton wrote:
 RPC only running AB=245 BC=253 AC=253
 With the BP 308 (Simodrive 611) powered up AB=245 BC=245 AC=245
 With the Samson 7.5hp manual lathe spindle at 660 RPM AB=244 BC=232
 Adding the 308's spindle at 1000 RPM AB=244 BC=234 AC=229
 Ramping up to 3000 RPM on the 308's spindle AB=244 BC=234 AC=227

 So it appears I need to do a bit more tuning with the caps as the load 
 is dragging down the voltage on the generated leg. Interestingly with 
 the Samson running the BP 308 would start from 0 to a higher RPM than 
 with it off even though the voltage had been pulled down by the Samson's 
 spindle.
   
Yup, you need a setting that gives the best balance over a RANGE of 
loads, from
no-load to worst-case.  Adding the Samson lathe is essentially adding 
another
large idler motor, and may improve the balance under the worst-case load.

If you can get the generated leg to sag less under this load without 
surging too
high at no-load, you may solve the problem.

Jon

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-05-31 Thread Jon Elson

John Thornton wrote:
  The interesting 
 thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611 
 on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain 
 to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out 
 the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to 
 showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the 
 wave form when this happens.
   
The sagging of the A-C voltage under load and the trip when starting the 
lathe
point in the same direction.  If the Simodrive has individual sensing of 
each
line, it may be detecting that one is too low.  Otherwise, it may be 
detecting
too much ripple on the DC bus, as it doesn't get much charge from the
sagged line.  It is possible the DC filter caps are going out, and 
replacing these
caps would make it run reliably even as is.

Jon

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-05-31 Thread Jon Elson

John Thornton wrote:
 $64 question will the isolation transformer do the same thing the 7.5hp 
 spindle motor is doing on the Samson?
   
No, I do not think so.  You may be able to tune this better with caps so 
the generated leg
runs a bit high at no load, and sags less at high load, and that may 
keep the control
happy.  Or, you may need to add another idler motor to the system.

Re. my comment about the filter caps.  Has this problem slowly been getting
worse over time - like a few years?  If so, then it strongly suggests 
that the
filter caps are going out, slowly.  How old is this machine?

Jon

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

2012-05-31 Thread Les Newell

Are the servo drives 3-phase as well? If not it may be cheaper to
replace the spindle drive with one that is a bit less touchy. My
Colchester Triumph 2000 CNC lathe has an inverter designed to run off
415V 3-ph. I use a step-up transformer to take my 230V single phase
mains up to 415V single phase. I just feed two of the phase inputs and
leave the third unconnected. You do need to derate the inverter if you
do this as it stresses the filter capacitors and input rectifier. I
never use full spindle power (10hp) so I get away with using the
original inverter. I also need to limit the spindle acceleration in top
gear with a 10 chuck otherwise I blow my main fuse. This setup has been
working for 2+ years with no problems.

Another, rather expensive, solution is to use an inverter plus a
sinewave filter. This produces almost perfect 3-phase. These inverters
are 240V in, 415 out but I am sure they are also available 110V in or
whatever your local voltage is.
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Drives-Direct-Inverters-LTD/DIGITAL-240-TO-415-INVERTERS-/_i.html?_fsub=5_sid=60949062_trksid=p4634.c0.m322.

The sine wave filters clean up the inverter output and output a waveform
that is nearly as clean as proper 3-ph mains.

It is possible the DC filter caps are going out, and
replacing these caps would make it run reliably even as is.

That is a possibility that is worth investigating. Some drive
manufacturers even recommend changing these periodically.

Les

On 31/05/2012 18:27, Jon Elson wrote:
The sagging of the A-C voltage under load and the trip when starting the
lathe
point in the same direction. If the Simodrive has individual sensing of
each
line, it may be detecting that one is too low. Otherwise, it may be
detecting
too much ripple on the DC bus, as it doesn't get much charge from the
sagged line. It is possible the DC filter caps are going out, and
replacing these
caps would make it run reliably even as is.

Jon

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

On 5/31/2012 1:33 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
 John Thornton wrote:

 $64 question will the isolation transformer do the same thing the 7.5hp
 spindle motor is doing on the Samson?

  
 No, I do not think so.  You may be able to tune this better with caps so
 the generated leg
 runs a bit high at no load, and sags less at high load, and that may
 keep the control
 happy.  Or, you may need to add another idler motor to the system.

 Re. my comment about the filter caps.  Has this problem slowly been getting
 worse over time - like a few years?  If so, then it strongly suggests
 that the
 filter caps are going out, slowly.  How old is this machine?

 Jon

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



I think that John swapped out the caps in this power supply when he 
first got this machine and starting having problems.

With all of the hybrid cars running around these days, I wonder if it 
wouldn't be possible to tap into the car's DC bus, attach an inverter 
and come up with an handy 25 KW or so 3 phase power supply.

That might convince me that a hybrid vehicle could actually be useful.

I think that some of these hybrids are running on 300+ volt DC bus systems.

For now a diesel generator might be cheaper,  but sooner or later these 
hybrids are going to be coming down in price as the gloss wears off and 
the vehicles age.


Dave

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

I might be able to scrounge another 240-480 transformer and put it with 
the one I have to get back to 240... do you think they need to be 
similar in size?

John

On 5/31/2012 11:28 AM, Dave wrote:
 Looks to me like it is more like a $1264 question.  ;-)

 I don't know.   That's why I would try and borrow one first.

 Know of any plants where you do work that has a spare transformer lying
 around?

 I've put a couple of them together before to get the right voltage..  IE
 240 to 480 and then 480 to 380 etc.

 Dave

 On 5/31/2012 12:06 PM, John Thornton wrote:
 I just ran another program to drill and tap a slew of holes in a 1/2
 steel plate with no problems except for I picked the 5/16-18 tap and
 drill for the 1/4-20 holes and proceeded to tap all 8 of them at the 20
 TPI pitch... no biggie I'll tap them out to 3/8 and plug them and tap
 them over again.

 $64 question will the isolation transformer do the same thing the 7.5hp
 spindle motor is doing on the Samson?

 John

 On 5/31/2012 9:43 AM, Dave wrote:

 You are probably right. When the drive load surges it is likely faulting
 out on what it thinks is a lost phase or phase undervoltage.

 It might be interesting is to run this test again and put a clamp on
 ammeter on each leg feeding your Mill and see how balanced the currents
 are.

 I have never really had any problem with my phase converter running
 loads so I haven't paid much attention to it, but I think I only have
 run capacitors connected between one phase and the made up phase.   I
 know I don't have any
 between both of the two original phases.   I was always more concerned
 about the current balance between phases than voltages.   The voltages
 have always been  within reason ( as I recall ).   But then this is one
 of those things that I don't pay much attention to unless it isn't working.

 I suspect that the 611 is expecting a stiff power supply - which most 3
 phase services can provide.  If you have a large pulley you can attach
 to your phase converter motor shaft to add inertia to the rotor, you
 might want to attach it.  It would help the motor supply surge current
 to the 611 drive.

 Dave



 On 5/31/2012 10:04 AM, John Thornton wrote:

 A little update this morning after last night's experiments I built on
 that a bit this morning. I upped the MFD's on the B-C and A-C caps a
 little at a time till I got close to what I think I wanted in voltage.
 This is what I ended up with...

 Phase === A-BB-CA-C
 Caps   50MFD  100MFD 220MFd
 RFC on 246v   263v   271v
 Samson @440 RPM246v   247v   249v
 611 Drive on   245v   243v   241v
 Engraving @6k RPM  244v   243v   234v

 I grabbed a program at random an it turned out to be engraving my
 company logo at 6k RPM. Now mind you this was not 0 to 6k but 0 to 2k
 with a 0.09 second pause between 100 RPM increases up to 6k. To my
 surprise the program ran to the end without a fault including rapids at
 295IPM on the Z axis. When I go to town I'm going to snatch up a few
 more caps to play with and bump up A-C a bit more to try and even it
 out. This will at least allow me to make parts for the time being until
 I either get an isolation transformer or generator. The interesting
 thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611
 on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain
 to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out
 the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to
 showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the
 wave form when this happens.

 Thanks for all the help and ideas.

 John

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

Are you tapering the slots so the edges are perpendicular to the center? 
BTW, 60 slots with the subroutine is a piece of cake. If you can come up 
with the code to do one slot I can paste it in my subroutine and send it 
back.

John

On 5/31/2012 11:46 AM, gene heskett wrote:
 On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:28:24 AM John Thornton did opine:

 I'm sure fresh bearings would help the 15hp and it is a heavy duty TEFC
 motor. I might pull it apart today and order some new ones...

 I didn't measure the temperature of the 10hp and only ran a few minutes
 but I'll keep an eye on it.

 I didn't ask for taps on the transformer but it won't hurt to find out
 the price. Input taps for 220 and 240?
 Since the existing autoformer has taps for 208, 220 and 240, I'd say an
 extra at 220, so you could use it for a 220 to 240 step up, or conversely
 swap primary  secondary  use it for a 240 to 220 step down would cover
 the options nicely when combined with the autoformers own taps.

 The N terminal on the existing autoformer can then be taken back to neutral
 in the service, thereby forcing the secondary side to become neutral
 referenced.  If this tranny comes with N connections on both windings, the
 N connection on whatever winding is used for drive to the existing
 autoformer could also be tied to this neutral run, but that would be more
 for correctness than any real advantage since it's the N terminal of the
 OEM autoformer that counts here.

 I'd check my copy of the NEC, but it's either grown legs or belonged to the
 tv station.  In any event its a '98 issue and could be obsolete.  I haven't
 stumbled over it in 3 or 4 years.

 How is the encoder disk coming along?

 John

 On 5/31/2012 7:21 AM, gene heskett wrote:
 So-so. I, took that printout out there yesterday, but being somewhat fam
 with the old code, and having a supply of #58  #60 pcb drills, I massaged
 that code for the smaller bits and tried to make a 60 slot encoder, then,
 trying to get the exec time down (its about 2.75 hours with that small a
 bit) I pushed too hard  broke the last #58, so I slowed down a bit more.
 So I've broken about $35 worth of bits now to get one poorly cut disk.  I
 added a duty cycle fudge value where the original code just divided by 2.0.

 Since mulls are faster, the disk I made yesterday now has a mull by
 duty_cycle, with duty cycle at .45.  Next one will be at .40 to equalize
 the opto outputs to 50%, they were about 57/43 when I put it on the lathe.

 I have the A/B slot ring about correct if I reduce the duty cycle from .45
 to .40, I should get pretty close to a 50% duty cycle out of the opto
 devices.  I can bend them back and forth perhaps 10 thou to fine tune the
 quadrature timing, or adjust the slot count one way or the other by one
 count.  But I think I am going to have to dig another 5 thou deeper into
 the piece of oil soaked oak used for sacrificial in order to remove the
 last vestiges of the fact that its not an end mill, but a drill bit with
 fairly steep angles. It left a fin at the bottom of the slot.

 Going from 39 to 60 slots, I had to adjust the encoder's scale  negate it
 but that was half expected.  And I have too much gain, the speed is hunting
 about 10%.

 Then, I am going to have to separate the slot cutting and inner hole cutout
 from each other in the codes looping so this thinner stuff has less
 opportunity to flex, and after fighting with the index slot, trying to
 maintain its tapered shape, it occurred to me that a simple slot perhaps a
 thou wider than the bit itself is all that needs since I don't think it
 needs a specific timeing reference the A/B slot ring. So that is the next
 change for this code. The .001 off line movement there is about the limit
 of my mill, but would be intended to assure that only one edge of the drill
 is doing the cutting. When both edges cut, the cut isn't as clean as the
 bit flexes.  I ordered another 5 pack of each bit size yesterday. $89.

 Another thing that I question is the math that does the tapering of the
 slots, I have a feeling its not quite right, but cannot put my finger on
 it.  That is about a screen full of code in vim all by itself just to make
 the 5 moves that carve the slot at each depth increment, and the last
 movement should be to the origin of the end of the first movement, but
 there is a small gap when you zoom in the backplot to look at slot 0 and
 the index or to any individual slot.  The error is at least consistent
 though so should be fixable.

 I haven't started on that yet for today, I need to make a trip out to get
 some blood pressure  anti-sugar pills  some groceries first.  And since
 the temps are decent, I need to fire up the weed eater  finish trimming my
 jungle too.  And when I do get to the shop, from the looks of things in the
 mills head, I need to replace one of those plastic gears, a hub is starting
 to break out and the gear rim is flopping up  down about 1/16 with
 attendant rattling noises.  There was, 10

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

Well that and for fun too... but I do have a backlog of money to make...

John

On 5/31/2012 11:56 AM, gene heskett wrote:
 On Thursday, May 31, 2012 12:53:37 PM John Thornton did opine:

 A little update this morning after last night's experiments I built on
 that a bit this morning. I upped the MFD's on the B-C and A-C caps a
 little at a time till I got close to what I think I wanted in voltage.
 This is what I ended up with...

 Phase ===  A-BB-CA-C
 Caps   50MFD  100MFD 220MFd
 RFC on 246v   263v   271v
 Samson @440 RPM246v   247v   249v
 611 Drive on   245v   243v   241v
 Engraving @6k RPM  244v   243v   234v

 I grabbed a program at random an it turned out to be engraving my
 company logo at 6k RPM. Now mind you this was not 0 to 6k but 0 to 2k
 with a 0.09 second pause between 100 RPM increases up to 6k. To my
 surprise the program ran to the end without a fault including rapids at
 295IPM on the Z axis. When I go to town I'm going to snatch up a few
 more caps to play with and bump up A-C a bit more to try and even it
 out. This will at least allow me to make parts for the time being until
 I either get an isolation transformer or generator. The interesting
 thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611
 on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain
 to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out
 the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to
 showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the
 wave form when this happens.

 That is certainly progress in the right direction, John.  You can actually
 get money making work done.  And that I believe is the object of this
 exercise, is it not?

 Thanks for all the help and ideas.

 John
 Cheers, Gene

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

Not too long ago I replaced every cap in the infeed unit, so I know they 
are all fresh.

John

On 5/31/2012 12:27 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
 John Thornton wrote:
   The interesting
 thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611
 on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain
 to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out
 the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to
 showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the
 wave form when this happens.

 The sagging of the A-C voltage under load and the trip when starting the
 lathe
 point in the same direction.  If the Simodrive has individual sensing of
 each
 line, it may be detecting that one is too low.  Otherwise, it may be
 detecting
 too much ripple on the DC bus, as it doesn't get much charge from the
 sagged line.  It is possible the DC filter caps are going out, and
 replacing these
 caps would make it run reliably even as is.

 Jon

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

I'm not sure what the drives are as they are all in one modular unit and
have interconnecting communications between the infeed unit and all the
drives. My local voltage is 240 on the mains with 120 to neutral. I've
not seen any inverters designed to take single phase in larger than 3hp,
I have in the past long ago do the single phase in three phase out trick
on over sized inverters.

John

On 5/31/2012 12:55 PM, Les Newell wrote:
Are the servo drives 3-phase as well? If not it may be cheaper to
replace the spindle drive with one that is a bit less touchy. My
Colchester Triumph 2000 CNC lathe has an inverter designed to run off
415V 3-ph. I use a step-up transformer to take my 230V single phase
mains up to 415V single phase. I just feed two of the phase inputs and
leave the third unconnected. You do need to derate the inverter if you
do this as it stresses the filter capacitors and input rectifier. I
never use full spindle power (10hp) so I get away with using the
original inverter. I also need to limit the spindle acceleration in top
gear with a 10 chuck otherwise I blow my main fuse. This setup has been
working for 2+ years with no problems.

It is possible the DC filter caps are going out, and
replacing these caps would make it run reliably even as is.
That is a possibility that is worth investigating. Some drive
manufacturers even recommend changing these periodically.

Les

Jon

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

They really don't have to be, but they should probably both be larger 
than 10 KVA.  If you have one that was 30 KVA and another that was 
10KVA, I wouldn't hesitate to hook them together for a test.

Although if you can trip out your 611 with only the spindle running and 
ramping up slowly,  even a couple of 7.5 KVA transformers would probably 
prove out the situation one way or another.

Dave

On 5/31/2012 3:15 PM, John Thornton wrote:
 I might be able to scrounge another 240-480 transformer and put it with
 the one I have to get back to 240... do you think they need to be
 similar in size?

 John

 On 5/31/2012 11:28 AM, Dave wrote:

 Looks to me like it is more like a $1264 question.  ;-)

 I don't know.   That's why I would try and borrow one first.

 Know of any plants where you do work that has a spare transformer lying
 around?

 I've put a couple of them together before to get the right voltage..  IE
 240 to 480 and then 480 to 380 etc.

 Dave

 On 5/31/2012 12:06 PM, John Thornton wrote:
  
 I just ran another program to drill and tap a slew of holes in a 1/2
 steel plate with no problems except for I picked the 5/16-18 tap and
 drill for the 1/4-20 holes and proceeded to tap all 8 of them at the 20
 TPI pitch... no biggie I'll tap them out to 3/8 and plug them and tap
 them over again.

 $64 question will the isolation transformer do the same thing the 7.5hp
 spindle motor is doing on the Samson?

 John

 On 5/31/2012 9:43 AM, Dave wrote:


 You are probably right. When the drive load surges it is likely faulting
 out on what it thinks is a lost phase or phase undervoltage.

 It might be interesting is to run this test again and put a clamp on
 ammeter on each leg feeding your Mill and see how balanced the currents
 are.

 I have never really had any problem with my phase converter running
 loads so I haven't paid much attention to it, but I think I only have
 run capacitors connected between one phase and the made up phase.   I
 know I don't have any
 between both of the two original phases.   I was always more concerned
 about the current balance between phases than voltages.   The voltages
 have always been  within reason ( as I recall ).   But then this is one
 of those things that I don't pay much attention to unless it isn't working.

 I suspect that the 611 is expecting a stiff power supply - which most 3
 phase services can provide.  If you have a large pulley you can attach
 to your phase converter motor shaft to add inertia to the rotor, you
 might want to attach it.  It would help the motor supply surge current
 to the 611 drive.

 Dave



 On 5/31/2012 10:04 AM, John Thornton wrote:

  
 A little update this morning after last night's experiments I built on
 that a bit this morning. I upped the MFD's on the B-C and A-C caps a
 little at a time till I got close to what I think I wanted in voltage.
 This is what I ended up with...

 Phase ===  A-BB-CA-C
 Caps   50MFD  100MFD 220MFd
 RFC on 246v   263v   271v
 Samson @440 RPM246v   247v   249v
 611 Drive on   245v   243v   241v
 Engraving @6k RPM  244v   243v   234v

 I grabbed a program at random an it turned out to be engraving my
 company logo at 6k RPM. Now mind you this was not 0 to 6k but 0 to 2k
 with a 0.09 second pause between 100 RPM increases up to 6k. To my
 surprise the program ran to the end without a fault including rapids at
 295IPM on the Z axis. When I go to town I'm going to snatch up a few
 more caps to play with and bump up A-C a bit more to try and even it
 out. This will at least allow me to make parts for the time being until
 I either get an isolation transformer or generator. The interesting
 thing that I discovered is if I start up the Samson lathe with the 611
 on I get a fault and have to reset the drive. This leads my tiny brain
 to think that it is a voltage drop to some degree that is tripping out
 the 611... what do you guys think? When my neighbor gets around to
 showing me how to store the traces in the scope I'll try and capture the
 wave form when this happens.

 Thanks for all the help and ideas.

 John

 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
 will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
 threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users




 --
 Live Security Virtual Conference
 Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
 threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor

On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:27:21 PM John Thornton did opine:

 I might be able to scrounge another 240-480 transformer and put it with
 the one I have to get back to 240... do you think they need to be
 similar in size?
 

Only to the extent that the smaller one is big enough, John.

[...]

Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene
Just about every computer on the market today runs Unix, except the Mac
(and nobody cares about it).
-- Bill Joy 6/21/85

--
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and 
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware 
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Commutating Reactor