Re: [E-devel] Current State and Future Direction of E/EFL

[The Rasterman]

On Sat, 10 Mar 2018 11:57:56 -0500 "William L. Thomson Jr."
 said:

> On Sat, 10 Mar 2018 16:35:02 +0900
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)  wrote:
> >
> > that's not how open source works. there is nothing keeping you around
> > unlike thew moral obligation you put on yourself to volunteer to
> > clean up after a disaster for example.
> 
> Yes and no. Not doing what you say you will, or following through
> publicly online can be a much more permanent visible record than not
> showing in person.
>  
> > they are very very very different things. also physically
> > volunteering means that walking away is something everyone sees you
> > do.
> 
> Who the internet? Nothing like saying online in archives you will do
> something and then not. Where strangers around the world can see you
> did or did not do something.

i notice people on line being far more flaky than in real life. maybe that's my
experience, but if they have to disappoint you to your face it tends to happen
less.
 
> > there is a face to it. walking away from an oss project is simply
> > stopping work. invariably there are not even real names let alone
> > faces associated. there e never many repercussions that you'd get
> > from the example above like your neighbours and community giving you
> > a hard time after walking off.
> 
> The chance of not seeing people in person, vs not coming across
> someones name online is not even in the same league. You can easily
> come across and find people online you cannot in person. You can move
> to a new town where your record as a flaky volunteer would not be known.
> Unless someone published it from physical to online.
> 
> Again I think people saying such haven't volunteered. People no show
> quite often. There is no peer pressure, etc. Most have no clue what
> anyone volunteered to do, said they would, etc.

Maybe our experiences differ - I've seen it through more structured
volunteering e.g. like volunteering days at school or via work as well as
conferences.

> > also cleanup after a disaster is doing what has to be done, not what
> > someone WANTS to be done. how would you like it if you volunteered to
> > clean up and the home owner comes by to the house you're cleaning
> > stuff out of and says "oh by the way. paint the walls lime green...
> > no not that green. this green. and can you rebuild my garage to be a
> > double instead of single, also use concrete instead of gravel on the
> > driveway..." any volunteer and organization will tell them to jump in
> > the lake. they get the cleanup they get. not just the exact way they
> > want it to be. the volunteers and organization decide what needs
> > doing. not the "users". they don't get a say.
> 
> Really you assume all things are rebuilt exactly as they were? Again I
> do not think you have experienced such first hand. They very much
> follow the requests of the home/property owner, etc.

No. I'm comparing volunteering for disaster recovery when it's more about just
getting things back to working rather than perfect vs. volunteer work on an
open source project. Disaster cleanup (2 of your examples) I think are vastly
different beasts to an OSS software project.

> The only time you have no choice, is like when there is debris that
> must be cleared. If you think people just go into others homes and do

That's what I'm thinking when you talk about hurricane and disaster recovery
volunteering. Debris everywhere, buildings damaged etc. etc.

> what ever with no direction. Again that shows more a lack of
> in person volunteer experience than reality.
> 
> > > When it comes to FOSS this gets lost. People think its my time, my
> > > volunteering, I am going to do what ever I want with my time. That
> > > is true within reason. But that also says they only care about
> > > themselves, not the project, or what ever they are volunteering
> > > for.  
> > 
> > that is absolutely correct. that's what it is. it's not a
> > humanitarian effort to clean up after a disaster. it's utterly
> > superfluous really to the daily trials and tribulations of life. it's
> > a luxury to get your software for free.
> 
> You would be surprised. There are many luxuries in life, such as a
> fence around your property. Nothing would effect daily life if that was
> missing.
> 
> I do not think it is a luxury to get software for free. If you think
> about what comes on say Apple or Microsoft to open source alternatives.
> Open source is not really that luxurious or feature rich in comparison.
> Not to mention your time you will spend, you would not otherwise. Its
> not like users do nothing in FOSS. They spend more time than they would
> with non-free software. Why despite free software, most run non-free.

Imagine if all the FOSS devs just never had released anything... :) Imagine the
only choices in the world were the software you describe above?

> > it is absolutely the job of users to convince the devs to do what
> > they 

Re: [E-devel] EFM drag animation was -> Current State and Future Direction of E/EFL

[The Rasterman]

On Sat, 10 Mar 2018 10:21:38 -0500 "William L. Thomson Jr."
 said:

> On Sat, 10 Mar 2018 16:38:34 +0900
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)  wrote:
> >
> > as i explained. that actually cannot be the case. the animation is
> > rendered in that window. its in-canvas as part of the efm window and
> > view... and thus if efm window goes - all objects in it go etc. ...
> > so my guess sis you mis-remember things.
> 
> I will provide a screenshot at some point for proof. I have seen odd
> stuff at times. The other day the battery icon was on my desktop as
> well. It was also on the shelf, but somehow it was on desktop. I could
> not click on it or anything. After log out and back in, it went away.

that theoretically could happen as objects in shelf are also in the main
compositor canvas. but also... you can put gadgets on the desktop too.

> The arrow animation stuck on the desktop, I know for a fact I have seen
> more than once. I am for sure remembering that very clearly. It maybe
> impossible, but it has happened for me. I have a great memory for such
> things, photographic... I can see it still Rather than debate, I
> will just take a screenshot next time. That cannot be debated.

if it was dnd into a window - a dir in there. it isn't possible but if it was a
dir on your desktop, then it would be possible. you did say you never had dirs
on your desktop, right? so taking that out of the picture... it really can't
happen. :/

> > > I do not believe you can restart EFM like you can E. I will try to
> > > restart that process or something next time to see if that fixes.
> > > Restarting E of course does fix, either via menu or log out/in.  
> > 
> > restarting e restarts efm. its the same thing. you can close and open
> > efm windows. you can also unload the fileman module and load it.
> > again. the module just provides the emf window wrapper and desktop
> > icons. the efm core that handles listing dirs, the icons, their dnd
> > and animation etc. is in e itself. it is the same thing used for the
> > file selector in e. that's efm. actually 2 efm views (one for
> > shortcuts/places, one for the directory content)
> 
> Next I have problems I will experiment. I just know EFM has been a
> problem for me more than once. 

if you find issues. bring them up - let me know. show me how to reproduce them.

i have to narrow down what and why and at least for the above unless it was
icons on the desktop i can't so how it's even possible, so i'm guessing it was
something else.

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: [E-devel] Current State and Future Direction of E/EFL

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

On Sat, 10 Mar 2018 16:35:02 +0900
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)  wrote:
>
> that's not how open source works. there is nothing keeping you around
> unlike thew moral obligation you put on yourself to volunteer to
> clean up after a disaster for example.

Yes and no. Not doing what you say you will, or following through
publicly online can be a much more permanent visible record than not
showing in person.
 
> they are very very very different things. also physically
> volunteering means that walking away is something everyone sees you
> do.

Who the internet? Nothing like saying online in archives you will do
something and then not. Where strangers around the world can see you
did or did not do something.

> there is a face to it. walking away from an oss project is simply
> stopping work. invariably there are not even real names let alone
> faces associated. there e never many repercussions that you'd get
> from the example above like your neighbours and community giving you
> a hard time after walking off.

The chance of not seeing people in person, vs not coming across
someones name online is not even in the same league. You can easily
come across and find people online you cannot in person. You can move
to a new town where your record as a flaky volunteer would not be known.
Unless someone published it from physical to online.

Again I think people saying such haven't volunteered. People no show
quite often. There is no peer pressure, etc. Most have no clue what
anyone volunteered to do, said they would, etc.

> also cleanup after a disaster is doing what has to be done, not what
> someone WANTS to be done. how would you like it if you volunteered to
> clean up and the home owner comes by to the house you're cleaning
> stuff out of and says "oh by the way. paint the walls lime green...
> no not that green. this green. and can you rebuild my garage to be a
> double instead of single, also use concrete instead of gravel on the
> driveway..." any volunteer and organization will tell them to jump in
> the lake. they get the cleanup they get. not just the exact way they
> want it to be. the volunteers and organization decide what needs
> doing. not the "users". they don't get a say.

Really you assume all things are rebuilt exactly as they were? Again I
do not think you have experienced such first hand. They very much
follow the requests of the home/property owner, etc.

The only time you have no choice, is like when there is debris that
must be cleared. If you think people just go into others homes and do
what ever with no direction. Again that shows more a lack of
in person volunteer experience than reality.

> > When it comes to FOSS this gets lost. People think its my time, my
> > volunteering, I am going to do what ever I want with my time. That
> > is true within reason. But that also says they only care about
> > themselves, not the project, or what ever they are volunteering
> > for.  
> 
> that is absolutely correct. that's what it is. it's not a
> humanitarian effort to clean up after a disaster. it's utterly
> superfluous really to the daily trials and tribulations of life. it's
> a luxury to get your software for free.

You would be surprised. There are many luxuries in life, such as a
fence around your property. Nothing would effect daily life if that was
missing.

I do not think it is a luxury to get software for free. If you think
about what comes on say Apple or Microsoft to open source alternatives.
Open source is not really that luxurious or feature rich in comparison.
Not to mention your time you will spend, you would not otherwise. Its
not like users do nothing in FOSS. They spend more time than they would
with non-free software. Why despite free software, most run non-free.

> it is absolutely the job of users to convince the devs to do what
> they want. not to expect devs to line up and take orders.

Its the job of devs to be receptive to users. Users have no job. Their
sole role is to use. They could not say anything to devs and use
another product. That doesn't help developers or their products.

Users are very important. Why there is the saying, the customer is
always right. There is not a saying, the developer is always right,
etc. The user is the customer.

> > Which if they do not care about users, that also shows they do not
> > care about the entity, organization, or project over all. If users
> > must always convince others, that will not work, and tends to not
> > work for projects who go down that path.  
> 
> that is how almost every project works. do you think you can go to a
> kernel dev and tell them "i want you do add feature x for me" and
> they will just go do it? i can name almost every tingle oss project
> that if a user just tells a developer "i want x" and if the dev
> doesn't like x .. it's not going to happen. even if user does x and
> submits a patch .. it doesn't mean the patch is accepted.

That is the same for most anything in life 

Re: [E-devel] Current State and Future Direction of E/EFL

[Andrew Williams]

Hi,

I know I’m not really active here but I just wanted to agree with the
sentiment here. It’s a little blunt but overall Stephen has a point.

I still think that would could have helped is a shared understanding of
what is being done (& why) and who the project is aimed at. Armed with such
a “vision” or “roadmap” it would be clearer if contributions will be
welcomed or not. And if commercial sponsorship is taking the project in the
right direction...

Andrew
On Sat, 10 Mar 2018 at 09:28, Stephen Houston  wrote:

> There is so much I whole heartedly disagree with in your attitude and point
> of view in this thread that will take me too much energy and time and
> arguing to cover.  I think other developers are coming to this same
> realization and are leaving rather than trying to change your mind.  This
> project has become far more than just you and your opinion and what you
> think is right but every word you say is coming out with an arrogance to it
> that you can't possibly be wrong, and it seems this is why you don't want
> to add any structure because then there would be rules that you too would
> have to follow and decisions made that you would not like.  While having a
> free to work on and push whatever you like unless raster vetos it community
> works out really well for you, you are not the entire dev or users
> community and they are the ones being hurt.  Our community is clearly down
> and grasping for air.  I don't think arguing for the status quo is a good
> idea.
>
> On Sat, Mar 10, 2018, 3:43 AM Carsten Haitzler 
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 11:28:01 -0500 "William L. Thomson Jr."
> >  said:
> >
> > > On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 13:38:36 +0900
> > > Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)  wrote:
> > >
> > > > a volunteer is not going to do something they dislike. certainly not
> > > > readily. users have to convince the volunteer to do it. not the other
> > > > way around (that volunteers need to be slaves to users and do work
> > > > for them even if the volunteer disagrees and dislikes it). volunteers
> > > > don't get paid... they do things because they desire and want to.
> > > > it's the user's job to convince them... or for the user to stand up
> > > > and do it themselves. :)
> > >
> > > Yes and no. Being a volunteer does not mean you just show up and do
> > > what ever you want to do. I do not think anyone who thinks along those
> > > lines has ever volunteered in person. In my area we do things like
> > > beach cleanup, hurricane and disaster recovery. You do no get to just
> > > show up and do what ever. You do get assigned things to do as a
> > > volunteer.
> >
> > that's not how open source works. there is nothing keeping you around
> > unlike
> > thew moral obligation you put on yourself to volunteer to clean up after
> a
> > disaster for example.
> >
> > they are very very very different things. also physically volunteering
> > means
> > that walking away is something everyone sees you do. there is a face to
> it.
> > walking away from an oss project is simply stopping work. invariably
> there
> > are
> > not even real names let alone faces associated. there e never many
> > repercussions that you'd get from the example above like your neighbours
> > and
> > community giving you a hard time after walking off.
> >
> > also cleanup after a disaster is doing what has to be done, not what
> > someone
> > WANTS to be done. how would you like it if you volunteered to clean up
> and
> > the
> > home owner comes by to the house you're cleaning stuff out of and says
> "oh
> > by
> > the way. paint the walls lime green... no not that green. this green. and
> > can
> > you rebuild my garage to be a double instead of single, also use concrete
> > instead of gravel on the driveway..." any volunteer and organization will
> > tell
> > them to jump in the lake. they get the cleanup they get. not just the
> > exact way
> > they want it to be. the volunteers and organization decide what needs
> > doing.
> > not the "users". they don't get a say.
> >
> > > When it comes to FOSS this gets lost. People think its my time, my
> > > volunteering, I am going to do what ever I want with my time. That is
> > > true within reason. But that also says they only care about themselves,
> > > not the project, or what ever they are volunteering for.
> >
> > that is absolutely correct. that's what it is. it's not a humanitarian
> > effort to
> > clean up after a disaster. it's utterly superfluous really to the daily
> > trials
> > and tribulations of life. it's a luxury to get your software for free.
> >
> > it is absolutely the job of users to convince the devs to do what they
> > want.
> > not to expect devs to line up and take orders.
> >
> > > Which if they do not care about users, that also shows they do not
> > > care about the entity, organization, or project over all. If users must
> > > always convince others, that 

Re: [E-devel] EFM drag animation was -> Current State and Future Direction of E/EFL

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

On Sat, 10 Mar 2018 16:38:34 +0900
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)  wrote:
>
> as i explained. that actually cannot be the case. the animation is
> rendered in that window. its in-canvas as part of the efm window and
> view... and thus if efm window goes - all objects in it go etc. ...
> so my guess sis you mis-remember things.

I will provide a screenshot at some point for proof. I have seen odd
stuff at times. The other day the battery icon was on my desktop as
well. It was also on the shelf, but somehow it was on desktop. I could
not click on it or anything. After log out and back in, it went away.

The arrow animation stuck on the desktop, I know for a fact I have seen
more than once. I am for sure remembering that very clearly. It maybe
impossible, but it has happened for me. I have a great memory for such
things, photographic... I can see it still Rather than debate, I
will just take a screenshot next time. That cannot be debated.
 
> > I do not believe you can restart EFM like you can E. I will try to
> > restart that process or something next time to see if that fixes.
> > Restarting E of course does fix, either via menu or log out/in.  
> 
> restarting e restarts efm. its the same thing. you can close and open
> efm windows. you can also unload the fileman module and load it.
> again. the module just provides the emf window wrapper and desktop
> icons. the efm core that handles listing dirs, the icons, their dnd
> and animation etc. is in e itself. it is the same thing used for the
> file selector in e. that's efm. actually 2 efm views (one for
> shortcuts/places, one for the directory content)

Next I have problems I will experiment. I just know EFM has been a
problem for me more than once. 

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.


pgpi_5Qtqu7CD.pgp
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Re: [E-devel] Current State and Future Direction of E/EFL

[Stephen Houston]

There is so much I whole heartedly disagree with in your attitude and point
of view in this thread that will take me too much energy and time and
arguing to cover.  I think other developers are coming to this same
realization and are leaving rather than trying to change your mind.  This
project has become far more than just you and your opinion and what you
think is right but every word you say is coming out with an arrogance to it
that you can't possibly be wrong, and it seems this is why you don't want
to add any structure because then there would be rules that you too would
have to follow and decisions made that you would not like.  While having a
free to work on and push whatever you like unless raster vetos it community
works out really well for you, you are not the entire dev or users
community and they are the ones being hurt.  Our community is clearly down
and grasping for air.  I don't think arguing for the status quo is a good
idea.

On Sat, Mar 10, 2018, 3:43 AM Carsten Haitzler  wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 11:28:01 -0500 "William L. Thomson Jr."
>  said:
>
> > On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 13:38:36 +0900
> > Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)  wrote:
> >
> > > a volunteer is not going to do something they dislike. certainly not
> > > readily. users have to convince the volunteer to do it. not the other
> > > way around (that volunteers need to be slaves to users and do work
> > > for them even if the volunteer disagrees and dislikes it). volunteers
> > > don't get paid... they do things because they desire and want to.
> > > it's the user's job to convince them... or for the user to stand up
> > > and do it themselves. :)
> >
> > Yes and no. Being a volunteer does not mean you just show up and do
> > what ever you want to do. I do not think anyone who thinks along those
> > lines has ever volunteered in person. In my area we do things like
> > beach cleanup, hurricane and disaster recovery. You do no get to just
> > show up and do what ever. You do get assigned things to do as a
> > volunteer.
>
> that's not how open source works. there is nothing keeping you around
> unlike
> thew moral obligation you put on yourself to volunteer to clean up after a
> disaster for example.
>
> they are very very very different things. also physically volunteering
> means
> that walking away is something everyone sees you do. there is a face to it.
> walking away from an oss project is simply stopping work. invariably there
> are
> not even real names let alone faces associated. there e never many
> repercussions that you'd get from the example above like your neighbours
> and
> community giving you a hard time after walking off.
>
> also cleanup after a disaster is doing what has to be done, not what
> someone
> WANTS to be done. how would you like it if you volunteered to clean up and
> the
> home owner comes by to the house you're cleaning stuff out of and says "oh
> by
> the way. paint the walls lime green... no not that green. this green. and
> can
> you rebuild my garage to be a double instead of single, also use concrete
> instead of gravel on the driveway..." any volunteer and organization will
> tell
> them to jump in the lake. they get the cleanup they get. not just the
> exact way
> they want it to be. the volunteers and organization decide what needs
> doing.
> not the "users". they don't get a say.
>
> > When it comes to FOSS this gets lost. People think its my time, my
> > volunteering, I am going to do what ever I want with my time. That is
> > true within reason. But that also says they only care about themselves,
> > not the project, or what ever they are volunteering for.
>
> that is absolutely correct. that's what it is. it's not a humanitarian
> effort to
> clean up after a disaster. it's utterly superfluous really to the daily
> trials
> and tribulations of life. it's a luxury to get your software for free.
>
> it is absolutely the job of users to convince the devs to do what they
> want.
> not to expect devs to line up and take orders.
>
> > Which if they do not care about users, that also shows they do not
> > care about the entity, organization, or project over all. If users must
> > always convince others, that will not work, and tends to not work for
> > projects who go down that path.
>
> that is how almost every project works. do you think you can go to a
> kernel dev
> and tell them "i want you do add feature x for me" and they will just go
> do it?
> i can name almost every tingle oss project that if a user just tells a
> developer
> "i want x" and if the dev doesn't like x .. it's not going to happen. even
> if
> user does x and submits a patch .. it doesn't mean the patch is accepted.
>
> if you believe projects are there to serve their users and just do whatever
> they say.. then that is a very wrong idea. it may apply to projects whose
> only
> goal in life is popularity. that's very few of them and i can tell you
> 

Re: [E-devel] futures again... :(

[Carsten Haitzler]

On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 10:52:59 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri 
said:

> On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:58 AM, Carsten Haitzler  wrote:
> > On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 14:11:26 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
> >  said:
> >
> >> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 2:33 AM, Carsten Haitzler 
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 18:34:59 -0500 Cedric Bail  said:
> >> >
> >> >>  Original Message 
> >> >>  On February 27, 2018 2:52 PM, Carsten Haitzler 
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >so I'm implementing a new efl.exe class (and efl.task and some others)
> >> >> >and i
> >> >> > WAS going to use a future as the return for run() ... but after just
> >> >> > writing about 20 lines of code (get a scheduler, create a promise
> >> >> > alloc promise data and all the checking in between) and i then
> >> >> > realized... it's ballooning to an insane amount of code vs
> >> >> > event_callback_call which is a 1 line func call when the event
> >> >> > happens.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > let me just copy and paste the relevant lines i had sketched out (was
> >> >> > not final or even compiling yet):
> >> >> >
> >> >> > typedef struct _Efl_Exe_Run_Data
> >> >> > {
> >> >> > Eo *obj;
> >> >> > } Efl_Exe_Run_Data;
> >>
> >> not sure you need this
> >
> > i need to report the object the future is for with the future... and i don't
> > want to rely on people having to use the data ptr for that. this is probably
> > one of the most common needs/uses of a future - that it's a one off action
> > FOR an object.
> 
> well, the thing is: promise is about a value, not anything else... if
> we start to misuse, it start to become less useful.

actually it's about calling success or failure at some point in the future and
standardizing this so you can have those all/race things and chain a then b
then c etc. 

value is actually secondary to this.

> for instance, with events rarely we carry payload info, usually one
> queries from the object... like text changed on widgets.
> 
> however for promises, with the chaining idea, rarely you should be
> getting the owner object... in the rare cases you need it, use "the
> closure" (void *data), which BTW is specific for each future in the
> chain, then you can chain multiple and "pass thru" the value if you
> need multiple objects (ie: say you need to get a value and show it to
> 2 label objects, you can connect 2 cb in a chain, each with a label
> object.

actually it's going to be incredibly common. example:

file_set on an image object... what do you think people want to do? they want
to then SHOW the object or emit a signal to it or something. they want to
initiate some response.

for exe's and threads the object will not be magically deleted if the exe
exits or thread exits. the object has to exist firstly to collect the results
(i/o, exit code results etc.) - it has fd's it has to listen on etc. etc. ...

if the object is deleted the promise cannot "continue" and report success or
failure. it won't know. all tracking of the child is deleted. i have chosen for
now at least that deletion doesn't block and wait for a child to exit nor
initiate any exiting (of thread or exe).

but... once the thread or exe has exited... the object SHOULD then be deleted.
otherwise it hangs around forever consuming memory for no reason other than to
store an exit code and any other data the user may have attached to it.

thus the object should always be provided to the future (success or failure)
because it is basically expected that you "do something about it" and delete
the object. if you do not then it'll leak. if you manage to somehow chain
things so you delete something else (a parent object etc.) and then this gets
magically deleted along with that - great. but most of the time you have to
handle the deletion manually because of autodel being bad for c++ etc.

> anyway, last but not least `efl_future` (not EINA) is bound to an
> object and carries it automatically for you... so basically if the
> user needs that behavior, just use that helper.

does the promise cancel (and thus call the fail cb) automatically if the obj is
deleted?

> >> >> > static void
> >> >> > _efl_exe_run_cancel(void *data, const Eina_Promise *dead_ptr
> >> >> > EINA_UNUSED) {
> >> >> > Efl_Exe_Run_Data *d = data;
> >> >> >
> >> >> > efl_task_end(d->obj);
> >> >> >}
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Efl_Exe_Run_Data *d;
> >> >> > Eina_Promise *p;
> >> >> >
> >> >> > d = calloc(1, sizeof(Efl_Exe_Run_Data));
> >> >> > EINA_SAFETY_ON_NULL_RETURN_VAL(d, NULL);
> >> >> > d->obj = obj;
> >> >> >p = eina_promise_new(sched, _efl_exe_run_cancel, d);
> >> >> > EINA_SAFETY_ON_NULL_RETURN_VAL(p, NULL);
> >> >> > d->promise = p;
> >> >> >d->run_future = efl_future_Eina_FutureXXX_then(obj,
> >> >> >eina_future_new(p)); return d->run_future;
> >> >>
> >> >> You do not need to keep the future at all in your structure. You are
> >> >> good to go with just :
> 

Re: [E-devel] EFM drag animation was -> Current State and Future Direction of E/EFL

[The Rasterman]

On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 11:57:03 -0500 "William L. Thomson Jr."
 said:

> On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 11:28:01 -0500
> "William L. Thomson Jr."  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 13:38:36 +0900
> > Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)  wrote:
> 
> > > like arrows pointing in over a directory indicating you are going to
> > > drop the file into the directory?   
> > 
> > I guess not sure. There are for arrows, one in each corner, and they
> > like point in as part of their animation. Horrible description sorry!
> > 
> > I cannot easily replicate that animation. If I drag a file over a
> > folder nothing happens. Just noticed I cannot drag a file into a
> > folder or anything. I am not sure how to trigger that animation, but
> > seems like its some drag and drop. Though I think its happened on
> > regular files not just folders.
> 
> I dragged a file over a folder on the desktop and got the animation.
> For some reason it was not triggering in EFM itself. Then after I did
> that on the desktop. It started working again in EFM.
> 
> I never have the animation stuck on desktop icons. It only gets stuck
> in EFM, and then when that closes. The animation keeps going on the
> desktop. I assume because same process or something not sure.

as i explained. that actually cannot be the case. the animation is rendered in
that window. its in-canvas as part of the efm window and view... and thus if
efm window goes - all objects in it go etc. ... so my guess sis you mis-remember
things.

> I do not believe you can restart EFM like you can E. I will try to
> restart that process or something next time to see if that fixes.
> Restarting E of course does fix, either via menu or log out/in.

restarting e restarts efm. its the same thing. you can close and open efm
windows. you can also unload the fileman module and load it. again. the module
just provides the emf window wrapper and desktop icons. the efm core that
handles listing dirs, the icons, their dnd and animation etc. is in e itself.
it is the same thing used for the file selector in e. that's efm. actually 2 efm
views (one for shortcuts/places, one for the directory content)

> I will play around and see if I can get it to get stuck and take a
> screenshot, etc.
> 
> -- 
> William L. Thomson Jr.


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: [E-devel] Current State and Future Direction of E/EFL

[The Rasterman]

On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 11:28:01 -0500 "William L. Thomson Jr."
 said:

> On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 13:38:36 +0900
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)  wrote:
> 
> > a volunteer is not going to do something they dislike. certainly not
> > readily. users have to convince the volunteer to do it. not the other
> > way around (that volunteers need to be slaves to users and do work
> > for them even if the volunteer disagrees and dislikes it). volunteers
> > don't get paid... they do things because they desire and want to.
> > it's the user's job to convince them... or for the user to stand up
> > and do it themselves. :)
> 
> Yes and no. Being a volunteer does not mean you just show up and do
> what ever you want to do. I do not think anyone who thinks along those
> lines has ever volunteered in person. In my area we do things like
> beach cleanup, hurricane and disaster recovery. You do no get to just
> show up and do what ever. You do get assigned things to do as a
> volunteer.

that's not how open source works. there is nothing keeping you around unlike
thew moral obligation you put on yourself to volunteer to clean up after a
disaster for example.

they are very very very different things. also physically volunteering means
that walking away is something everyone sees you do. there is a face to it.
walking away from an oss project is simply stopping work. invariably there are
not even real names let alone faces associated. there e never many
repercussions that you'd get from the example above like your neighbours and
community giving you a hard time after walking off.

also cleanup after a disaster is doing what has to be done, not what someone
WANTS to be done. how would you like it if you volunteered to clean up and the
home owner comes by to the house you're cleaning stuff out of and says "oh by
the way. paint the walls lime green... no not that green. this green. and can
you rebuild my garage to be a double instead of single, also use concrete
instead of gravel on the driveway..." any volunteer and organization will tell
them to jump in the lake. they get the cleanup they get. not just the exact way
they want it to be. the volunteers and organization decide what needs doing.
not the "users". they don't get a say.

> When it comes to FOSS this gets lost. People think its my time, my
> volunteering, I am going to do what ever I want with my time. That is
> true within reason. But that also says they only care about themselves,
> not the project, or what ever they are volunteering for.

that is absolutely correct. that's what it is. it's not a humanitarian effort to
clean up after a disaster. it's utterly superfluous really to the daily trials
and tribulations of life. it's a luxury to get your software for free.

it is absolutely the job of users to convince the devs to do what they want.
not to expect devs to line up and take orders.

> Which if they do not care about users, that also shows they do not
> care about the entity, organization, or project over all. If users must
> always convince others, that will not work, and tends to not work for
> projects who go down that path.

that is how almost every project works. do you think you can go to a kernel dev
and tell them "i want you do add feature x for me" and they will just go do it?
i can name almost every tingle oss project that if a user just tells a developer
"i want x" and if the dev doesn't like x .. it's not going to happen. even if
user does x and submits a patch .. it doesn't mean the patch is accepted.

if you believe projects are there to serve their users and just do whatever
they say.. then that is a very wrong idea. it may apply to projects whose only
goal in life is popularity. that's very few of them and i can tell you that it
almost always ends in tears as the project falls apart technically.

> Just as devs/volunteers must be motivated to fulfill a users wishes and

and that is where i think you have it wrong. devs absolutely have no
requirement to fulfill users wishes. none. no requirement. if they do so it's
them being kind, or perhaps being inspired or motivated by an idea or a user.
unless their goal is pure popularity by saying yes to anything no matter what
it is or what the cost to them just for a bit of popularity.

> desires. A user has to be motivated to step up. They have to want to,
> and that can start with wanting to work with given developers. If they
> see those developers/volunteers are just self serving. They likely will
> not want to work with them. I see that to often. People with skill, but
> others avoid them and the distro. Then they use that to drive off
> others saying others are having that effect. Not realizing its them...
> Thus despite running others off, project still  suffers.

what you are describing is developer utterly ignoring users. i never said that.
i did say that listening is good. it does not mean they just do whatever a
user asks. it goes like this: