Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 08:50:16PM -0800, T. Joseph Carter wrote: Actually, I went ~x86 in order to try and solve that problem. It had mixed results (solved some, created others..) I mostly stopped updating anything that didn't need to be updated to fix a problem or security hole. I think the better thing to do is copy the masked ebuilds that you want to PORTDIR_OVERLAY and unmask them there, instead of global unmasking. I've noticed that some masked ebuilds rely on library versions of other packages that don't even have masked ebuilds, as well as libraries that have API changes that are not accounted for in masked ebuilds for packages that use those libraries. Obviously, that makes things _very_ unstable. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
Id like to see a system that more like a few gig and be part of the system ram, like a simm that you pop in and is electronicly re-programmable, but non-volitile. and hard drives that didnt come on unless you needed them and ofcourse dirt cheap so that everyone could have them! -Jamie This sounds a lot like CF on IDE... and although it is not generally part of system memory on IDE, you could make it a swap partition (yikes!) although you do want to be very careful about the lifetime write-cycle of CF and other NV storage. They are now relatively dirt cheap and the first thing you'd need is a CF-IDE adapter, which I think can be had for ~$20. Great for embedded systems, solid-state systems (ie, no moving parts), and the like... Are you thinking of something else? Like a hot-swappable non-volatile DIMM that works in existing systems (as if any but top-end servers do hot-swappable memory!) and somehow also acts as a drive? That'd be nice, heh. ciao, Ben On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 00:57:23 -0500 Linux Rocks ! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Saturday 15 November 2003 09:47 pm, Bob Miller wrote: | : Linux Rocks ! wrote: | : I liked the commodore much better than the apple 2... neither were | : all that great, but the commodore would boot w/out a disk, which | is: a decent feature I wish carried over in the modern computing | world!: | : We have Linux boxes and distros that will boot from floppy, from | flash: memory (CompactFlash or USB), over Ethernet using PXE, or from | CD-ROM.: I think your wish has been granted. | | forgot about CF... that is an option... its still not as nice as rom | though... I think the commodore OS was about 25k, nowadays it would | have to be a few meg at least... Id like to see a system that more | like a few gig and be part of the system ram, like a simm that you pop | in and is electronicly re-programmable, but non-volitile. and hard | drives that didnt come on unless you needed them and ofcourse dirt | cheap so that everyone could have them! | | Jamie | | -- | Dijkstra probably hates me. | -- Linus Torvalds, in kernel/sched.c | ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
Yes!! You rock, Bob! Well put. Looks like the SCO-brained analysis and G5-speccing mentalities are merging; here's one: I have this computer in my closet that has an *infinitely* better price-performance ratio than ANY computer you can buy today, it was free. Ben PS - for those looking at averatech laptops, see this page: http://www.buy.com/retail/searchresults.asp?mfgID=10539loc=101search_store=1qu=*querytype=compmp=51 (there is a DVD-RW/CD-RW-happy model for $1300 after $100 rebate; about one inch thick) On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:34:44 -0800 Bob Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | T. Joseph Carter wrote: | | Let's see what Dell has to say. | | $2824 | | This is a fairly silly comparison. Why match every useless feature | Steve saw fit to bundle into the G5? Instead, let's see what Apple | would charge for a Mac that matches the box ComputerBase built for me | in July. | | I needed a new motherboard, CPU, and RAM. I chose a P4 | (hyperthreaded, 800 MHz FSB, 2.4GHz), 2 GB of PC3200 RAM, and an Intel | D865PERL. (Not my first choice of motherboard, but I needed the new | computer the same day. So for comparison, use the prices charged at | The Macintosh Store on 8th. (-: ) I didn't need disk drives (already | had 'em with RedHat and two years' work preinstalled), CD-ROM, DVD, | video, sound, firewire, NIC, case, power supply, or video editing | software. | | The closest thing, pricewise, in the Apple Store, is a 1.6 GHz G5. | With 2GB RAM, it's $2945. Never mind that if I'd bought a Mac that | day, I'd also need a new display and all new software, which is never | free on Macs. Oh, did The Macintosh Store have G5s in stock in July? | Might have had to settle for a G4. | | I paid $550. Got it in an hour. | | There. I've just proven a Mac costs 5X as much as a comparable PC. | (-: Is my comparison any less valid than yours? (Yes, I'm aware that | my comparison is about as valid as a SCO legal brief. But so is | yours.) | | | The thing is, the PC ecosystem is broad, deep and complex. There are | five vendors competing for every niche in it, from CPU to video card | to case to the little screws that hold the PCI cards in. The Mac | ecosystem is single source from top to bottom, exactly three | products at any time, cleverly positioned so that only the top product | has all the useful features. When Apple screws up -- ships a | faulty/unreliable product, can't meet demand, or misses a development | schedule, Mac users have no alternative. PC users just buy another | brand. | | One is rain forest, the other is parking lot. | | The other thing is, the Mac has a closed, proprietary software | architecture. Just like Windows. More so, in fact, since Apple owns | it from the apps to the chips. The PC, especially with Linux or *BSD, | is infinitely diverse. You always have choices, including the choice | to rewrite it your way. (That's why we're FOSS zealots, after all.) | | | I'm glad you like your Mac and your iBook. I'm glad they work for you | and for the other EUGLUGsters who have them. But don't for a minute | think Apple has the only viable platform. | | Disclaimer: I've owned three Macs. I've worked at Apple. I first | developed for Mac in 1985. | | -- | Bob Miller Kbob ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
What I was thinking was something like a simm(dimm... whatever) that you pop in where you would normally have simm/dimms (say you have 3 slots, put one that is the operating system, the other 2 are primary storage as usual) The one simm would be nonvolitle ram so it doesnt go away on power cycle. It wold ofcourse want to be programmable so you can upgrade the OS. really a simple concept... Jamie On Monday 17 November 2003 03:04 pm, Ben Barrett wrote: : Id like to see a system that more like a few gig and be part of the : system ram, like a simm that you pop in and is electronicly : re-programmable, but non-volitile. and hard drives that didnt come on : unless you needed them and ofcourse dirt cheap so that everyone : could have them! -Jamie : : This sounds a lot like CF on IDE... and although it is not generally : part of system memory on IDE, you could make it a swap : partition (yikes!) although you do want to be very careful about the : lifetime write-cycle of CF and other NV storage. They are now : relatively dirt cheap and the first thing you'd need is a CF-IDE : adapter, which I think can be had for ~$20. Great for embedded systems, : solid-state systems (ie, no moving parts), and the like... : : Are you thinking of something else? Like a hot-swappable non-volatile : DIMM that works in existing systems (as if any but top-end servers do : hot-swappable memory!) and somehow also acts as a drive? : That'd be nice, heh. : : ciao, : :Ben : : : : On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 00:57:23 -0500 : : Linux Rocks ! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: : | On Saturday 15 November 2003 09:47 pm, Bob Miller wrote: : | : Linux Rocks ! wrote: : | : I liked the commodore much better than the apple 2... neither were : | : all that great, but the commodore would boot w/out a disk, which : | : | is: a decent feature I wish carried over in the modern computing : | : | world!: : | : We have Linux boxes and distros that will boot from floppy, from : | : | flash: memory (CompactFlash or USB), over Ethernet using PXE, or from : | CD-ROM.: I think your wish has been granted. : | : | forgot about CF... that is an option... its still not as nice as rom : | though... I think the commodore OS was about 25k, nowadays it would : | have to be a few meg at least... Id like to see a system that more : | like a few gig and be part of the system ram, like a simm that you pop : | in and is electronicly re-programmable, but non-volitile. and hard : | drives that didnt come on unless you needed them and ofcourse dirt : | cheap so that everyone could have them! : | : | Jamie : | : | -- : | Dijkstra probably hates me. : | -- Linus Torvalds, in kernel/sched.c : : ___ : EuG-LUG mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug -- Some people have told me they don't think a fat penguin really embodies the grace of Linux, which just tells me they have never seen a angry penguin charging at them in excess of 100mph. They'd be a lot more careful about what they say if they had. -- Linus Torvalds, announcing Linux v2.0 ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
...that's what I thought you meant. Well, you can have that today! Just put in the IDE-CF adapter, and the special magical mystery memory is a CF that you boot from. It is programmable as you call it, meaning you can write a new OS to it, and it is nonvolatile. The problem with using a DIMM socket for this, as I see it, is that today's motherboards (and yesterday's) are created to handle RAM and drives, but not either on the other's interface! So, to do this you put CF on the *IDE* interface, and RAM on the *memory* interface. Can anyone speak at greater length about this? Is it the North bridge? (The south bridge handles PCI, right? or does it also do the IDE?) ciao, Ben On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:33:29 -0500 Linux Rocks ! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | What I was thinking was something like a simm(dimm... whatever) that | you pop in where you would normally have simm/dimms (say you have 3 | slots, put one that is the operating system, the other 2 are primary | storage as usual) The one simm would be nonvolitle ram so it doesnt go | away on power cycle. It wold ofcourse want to be programmable so you | can upgrade the OS. really a simple concept... | | Jamie ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
yeah... Ive been considering something like that. I have a cf pcmcia adapter, and cant find my camera... I saw a cf card on sale somewhere (think it was like 256mb. I could build a small system on that card (maybe even have X on it. or possibly a wireless firewall box (put a wireless card in the other slot, and you a have a wireless gateway. Jamie On Monday 17 November 2003 04:49 pm, Ben Barrett wrote: : ...that's what I thought you meant. Well, you can have that today! : Just put in the IDE-CF adapter, and the special magical mystery memory : is a CF that you boot from. It is programmable as you call it, : meaning you can write a new OS to it, and it is nonvolatile. : The problem with using a DIMM socket for this, as I see it, is that : today's motherboards (and yesterday's) are created to handle RAM and : drives, but not either on the other's interface! So, to do this you put : CF on the *IDE* interface, and RAM on the *memory* interface. : Can anyone speak at greater length about this? Is it the North bridge? : (The south bridge handles PCI, right? or does it also do the IDE?) : : ciao, : :Ben : : : On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:33:29 -0500 : : Linux Rocks ! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: : | What I was thinking was something like a simm(dimm... whatever) that : | you pop in where you would normally have simm/dimms (say you have 3 : | slots, put one that is the operating system, the other 2 are primary : | storage as usual) The one simm would be nonvolitle ram so it doesnt go : | away on power cycle. It wold ofcourse want to be programmable so you : | can upgrade the OS. really a simple concept... : | : | Jamie : : ___ : EuG-LUG mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug -- ¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø The Famous Joke of the Day One Liner! It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit. - Harry S Truman ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
Ben Barrett wrote: ...that's what I thought you meant. Well, you can have that today! Just put in the IDE-CF adapter, and the special magical mystery memory is a CF that you boot from. It is programmable as you call it, meaning you can write a new OS to it, and it is nonvolatile. The problem with using a DIMM socket for this, as I see it, is that today's motherboards (and yesterday's) are created to handle RAM and drives, but not either on the other's interface! So, to do this you put CF on the *IDE* interface, and RAM on the *memory* interface. Even better, flash Linux onto your BIOS. The BIOS is also nonvolatile memory, and it's directly addressable from the CPU. That's what the LinuxBIOS project is all about. With a Linux BIOS and a CF root drive, you could have a 100% solid state Linux box. Can anyone speak at greater length about this? Is it the North bridge? (The south bridge handles PCI, right? or does it also do the IDE?) Not me. -- Bob Miller Kbob kbobsoft software consulting http://kbobsoft.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
I like Linux on BIOS, but hearing about how many mobo's had to get thrashed down at Los Alamos's ACL (by Matt) made me, well, scared. I'm looking forward to some end-user-ready linux bios systems! I know it boots much faster, but why would you have to have a linux bios (if you already do boot from CF) in order to have a 100% solid state linux system? Ben PS - the main reason I saw for linux-bios was foreshortened boot times... what were the others again? On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:02:03 -0800 Bob Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Ben Barrett wrote: | | ...that's what I thought you meant. Well, you can have that today! | Just put in the IDE-CF adapter, and the special magical mystery | memory is a CF that you boot from. It is programmable as you call | it, meaning you can write a new OS to it, and it is nonvolatile. | The problem with using a DIMM socket for this, as I see it, is that | today's motherboards (and yesterday's) are created to handle RAM and | drives, but not either on the other's interface! So, to do this you | put CF on the *IDE* interface, and RAM on the *memory* interface. | | Even better, flash Linux onto your BIOS. The BIOS is also nonvolatile | memory, and it's directly addressable from the CPU. That's what the | LinuxBIOS project is all about. | | With a Linux BIOS and a CF root drive, you could have a 100% solid | state Linux box. | | Can anyone speak at greater length about this? Is it the North | bridge?(The south bridge handles PCI, right? or does it also do the | IDE?) | | Not me. | | -- ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
Ben Barrett wrote: I like Linux on BIOS, but hearing about how many mobo's had to get thrashed down at Los Alamos's ACL (by Matt) made me, well, scared. I'm looking forward to some end-user-ready linux bios systems! I know it boots much faster, but why would you have to have a linux bios (if you already do boot from CF) in order to have a 100% solid state linux system? Ben PS - the main reason I saw for linux-bios was foreshortened boot times... what were the others again? The other advantage is that you don't have the kernel (and grub) taking up space on your CF disk. That's about it. Booting from CompactFlash is fine (and doesn't risk trashing your motherboard). -- Bob Miller Kbob kbobsoft software consulting http://kbobsoft.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 01:47:22AM -0500, Linux Rocks! wrote: : : Several reasons (why I bought my Powerbook): : : : : 1. Ability to actually open Word documents people keep giving me : : without them getting annoyed when I tell them that OOo ate the thing. : : OOo sigh... OpenOffice was a disapointment to me. however abiword or even : kword work fine. : : Abiword may one day be the Linux word processor of choice. It's not : today, though. =( I have no complaints about abiword... works great for me. much better than OOo/StarOffice, but then I really dont use that type of software often... One factor is that I am a student. This means I get Word documents handed to me daily and I can't make excuses if my software isn't compatible with them. This means I actually have (igh) Word for Mac. It's an acceptable program actually and good enough that I tend to use it instead of Appleworks for that purpose. For the rest of Office, I usually use Appleworks or Keynote instead because ... well let's face it, Office is not exactly something Microsoft has a vested interest in seeing become too good or too useful on the Mac. I see Abiword as more akin to WordPad in Win32 than to Word, but then Linux needs a decent WordPad. Appleworks just feels too much like an old MacOS 9 program (because it basically is, just built with Carbon.) Little things like keyboard controls are missing, which suck for writing papers and the like. All the same, Abiword will probably find a place in my dock if it works out as well on the Mac as it was under Linux. I'd really like to see it running under a native GTK though, and I'm not sure it will be terribly useful without three buttons on my notebook, but still. well... I was thinking about DVD players mostly... every laptop Ive looked at recently has DVD (not RW), and CDRW, most are built in, but some are removable. The Dell (even the $600 one) did have many optical drive options (no extra charge) of DVDR, CD/DVD, CDRW, or CD. I think the DVDR was 4x, CD/ DVD was 24x RW, 8x DVD read I think. anyway you get the picture... I have a hard time accepting that there is no extra charge given that the choice then would be DVD+-RW, just as it would be for a desktop. (The drives are getting cheaper on the desktop - cheaper enough that that IS the standard choice for a new machine anymore.) Dell and Gateway typically offer DVD or CDRW for a fixed price, a combo drive for more. Burning DVDs is not something I've seen even as an option on non-mac notebooks thus far, though given that the Mac has had them for a year, it's about time the PC makers innovate the first notebooks to offer them. ;) If you buy a laptop with removable optical drive bay, you can replace it with whatever comes out next year... or even use it as a extra battery slot, or floppy, ... many of the sub $1000 laptops are all in one units, with no removable drives, but not all. How comfortable the keyboard/pointer is probably a better reason to buy one laptop over another IMHO. That was one of the reasons why I bought the (more expensive) Powerbook. The iBook just didn't have as nice a keyboard. Avoid Gateway notebooks, their keyboards are crap. Dell too bad - pretty similar to the iBook. IBM is supposed to have better, though I haven't tried their latest models. Their older keyboards were better, but they were also substantially thicker than the current models. ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
On Sunday 16 November 2003 03:33 am, T. Joseph Carter wrote: : well... I was thinking about DVD players mostly... every laptop Ive : looked at recently has DVD (not RW), and CDRW, most are built in, but : some are removable. The Dell (even the $600 one) did have many optical : drive options (no extra charge) of DVDR, CD/DVD, CDRW, or CD. I think the : DVDR was 4x, CD/ DVD was 24x RW, 8x DVD read I think. anyway you get the : picture... : : I have a hard time accepting that there is no extra charge given that the : choice then would be DVD+-RW, just as it would be for a desktop. (The : drives are getting cheaper on the desktop - cheaper enough that that IS : the standard choice for a new machine anymore.) dell didnt have much details in the dropdown menu list... but I think the DVDR(w?) was a very low end one, if you chose dvd/cdrw, it was fairly decent (like 8xDVD, 24x cdrw), and the plain cd was 48 or 52x). I wasnt really looking for DVD+-RW for the laptop... but that doesnt mean they arent out there, I was primarily looking at new laptops w/warrently under $1k. with a laptop that price, a USB DVD burner would be a decent option. For the same cost of the mac laptop (non-student price), Im sure you can find them with the burner built in, but havnt looked. : If you buy a laptop with removable optical drive bay, you can replace it : with whatever comes out next year... or even use it as a extra battery : slot, or floppy, ... many of the sub $1000 laptops are all in one units, : with no removable drives, but not all. : How comfortable the keyboard/pointer is probably a better reason to buy : one laptop over another IMHO. : : That was one of the reasons why I bought the (more expensive) Powerbook. : The iBook just didn't have as nice a keyboard. Avoid Gateway notebooks, : their keyboards are crap. Dell too bad - pretty similar to the iBook. : IBM is supposed to have better, though I haven't tried their latest : models. Their older keyboards were better, but they were also : substantially thicker than the current models. I used an older IBM last summer, and even though it wasnt a fast computer, I did like the keyboard and display on it... it was arpox 300mhz, so its probably a few years old. nice key size, and action on the keys. the mousepad was decent too, but ive used better. I did find an averatec at staples, and like they key size, placement and action (except the puny space bar and hard to reach backspace). I found the mousepad way too far from the keyboard though... hard to use w/out completely taking your hands off the keys (ie using your thumb.) but other than that it was pretty nice, real light and thin, decent display. its kind of a small display, but then, its a small computer! Jamie : : ___ : EuG-LUG mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug -- ...Unix, MS-DOS, and Windows NT (also known as the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly). -- Matt Welsh ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 03:53:19AM -0500, Linux Rocks! wrote: : I have a hard time accepting that there is no extra charge given that the : choice then would be DVD+-RW, just as it would be for a desktop. (The : drives are getting cheaper on the desktop - cheaper enough that that IS : the standard choice for a new machine anymore.) dell didnt have much details in the dropdown menu list... but I think the DVDR(w?) was a very low end one, if you chose dvd/cdrw, it was fairly decent (like 8xDVD, 24x cdrw), and the plain cd was 48 or 52x). I wasnt really looking for DVD+-RW for the laptop... but that doesnt mean they arent out there, I was primarily looking at new laptops w/warrently under $1k. with a laptop that price, a USB DVD burner would be a decent option. For the same cost of the mac laptop (non-student price), Im sure you can find them with the burner built in, but havnt looked. Well, I can say that I've only used it twice, and have been near enough my G5 since getting it that I haven't been willing to wait (the G5's burner is a faster for writing and a lot faster for verifying), but if I need to write one in a pinch, it's nice to have. I guess the real reason for any mac was having the desktop apps for school without having to put up with windows to get them. The choice between a 12 iBook with combo drive and the (normally far more expensive) Powerbook came down to having the money for the Powerbook in one place at exactly the same moment as a limited supply of maxed out models became available at a price still unmatched elsewhere four months later, even though the model I bought is now obsolete (updated in September/October but anticipated in June when I bought the machine..) I used an older IBM last summer, and even though it wasnt a fast computer, I did like the keyboard and display on it... it was arpox 300mhz, so its probably a few years old. nice key size, and action on the keys. the mousepad was decent too, but ive used better. I prefer the stick on the even older IBMs. Back about 96 or so, IBM made a greyscale notebook - might have been a 486 or early Pentium designed for students. It was about the size of the average 12 notebook today, but it is 7 year old technology, so it's thick and heavy by modern standards. It had one thing going for it, though. I have only seen one notebook with a screen as sharp and crisp. The grayscale was very nicely lit and the lack of color allowed the screen to be very black when black or very white when white. Even some of the best three dot color screens today aren't that good, though the four dot color models may be. The problem is that the fourth dot is a white LED, so the things use a lot of power. Not many of them are likely to make it into notebooks until OLED becomes cheaper and replaces the white silicon LED dot. FWIW, the Samsung LCDs are some of the best for desktops - used both by Apple and a couple of other flat panel makers. They are the makers of the four dot LCDs, though that's what I have here. (I just have one serious backlight and a very dark black. As with all color LCDs though, black is only black when viewed from straight on. It tends to look more reddish and greenish from one side and more bluish and greenish from the other. Unless you use a black background, you don't notice. I did find an averatec at staples, and like they key size, placement and action (except the puny space bar and hard to reach backspace). I found the mousepad way too far from the keyboard though... hard to use w/out completely taking your hands off the keys (ie using your thumb.) I'd be interested in seeing one of these at some point, especially if they have a decent battery life. I was disappointed because the first serious-looking notebooks at that price point (the ones that you could get with Lindows on them) were using C3 processors (which are not exactly good performers, but are great on battery life) but still only had 2-3 hours battery life. The point of these machines is to be small and available when you don't have your desktop in front of you. It's reasonable to assume then that you should optimize for battery life and not for performance. Even if that means using embedded applications in place of full-featured ones, it'd be worth it. About the best you get on a single battery with most notebooks is 4 hours. (Note, with two battery slots, 7 hours seems more the average..) The goal though is to get 7 hours out of one battery and keep the weight below the 5lb mark. I was discussing Thursday night the prospect of a hypothetical subnotebook/PDA hybrid which would be about 3/8 thick and still have about 7 hours of battery life. Basically I've imagined the guts of a higher-end PDA in the form factor of a 12 notebook trimmed down too thin for the usual notebook ports (like ethernet..) May never actually get formally designed and less likely to get even a prototype built, but it has proven a fun
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 07:34:44PM -0800, Bob Miller wrote: The thing is, the PC ecosystem is broad, deep and complex. There are five vendors competing for every niche in it, from CPU to video card to case to the little screws that hold the PCI cards in. The Mac ecosystem is single source from top to bottom, exactly three products at any time, cleverly positioned so that only the top product has all the useful features. When Apple screws up -- ships a faulty/unreliable product, can't meet demand, or misses a development schedule, Mac users have no alternative. PC users just buy another brand. One is rain forest, the other is parking lot. The other thing is, the Mac has a closed, proprietary software architecture. Just like Windows. More so, in fact, since Apple owns it from the apps to the chips. The PC, especially with Linux or *BSD, is infinitely diverse. You always have choices, including the choice to rewrite it your way. (That's why we're FOSS zealots, after all.) Not exactly part of the Mac ecosystem, but there is http://pegasosppc.com -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
T. Joseph Carter wrote: When Havoc is done with Gnome 2.6, it will have only one button labelled Do stuff. You say that like it's a bad thing. Why exactly did you buy a Mac, again? -- Bob Miller Kbob kbobsoft software consulting http://kbobsoft.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 11:25:03PM -0800, Bob Miller wrote: When Havoc is done with Gnome 2.6, it will have only one button labelled Do stuff. You say that like it's a bad thing. Why exactly did you buy a Mac, again? Several reasons (why I bought my Powerbook): 1. Ability to actually open Word documents people keep giving me without them getting annoyed when I tell them that OOo ate the thing. 2. The need to not need to fix something every time I have a paper, project, midterm, or other high-stress school thing pending in order to complete that thing. (OOo and, under Gentoo, ghostscript were common culprits, though portions of Gnome were also a factor..) 3. Sick and tired of hardware with half-assed support. ACPI-only notebook that couldn't be suspended in Linux safely, poor battery life because the speed controls didn't work, four button touchpad which only worked as two button because there was no driver, softmodems, PCI database, printer drivers which required annoying long command lines to print at more than 300 DPI and took 10-15 minutes to print a six page document, etc. 4. NeXT. The first thing I ever hacked on was an Apple //e. Then a little on a Mac, then I got a look at a NeXT box. Somewhere I went back to a IIgs and then wound up with a PC. The NeXT box was the single best-designed things I'd ever used, and that statement holds true to date. 5. Architecture. I know some 603e-era PPC asm. It's sane. The PPC is a well-designed processor. IA32 is basically a series of incremental hacks on the 8080A, which was a pretty lousy processor even then, hence the high usage of the 6809 and 6502. 6. 640 MB RAM, 60 GB disk, USB, Firewire, 802.11g, DVD-R, and Bluetooth in one small package that gets on average 4 hours battery life, and can be held in one arm comfortably (I did so with the Gateway often, but it was never comfortable..) 7. Price for all of that for me as a student was $1649. NO IA32 notebook at the time could match the feature set at that price. It's still nearly impossible to get IA32 notebooks with the featureset integrated (mainly the DVD-R), but it is now at least possible on $2500-3000 models. 8. Sexy metal keyboard 9. Warranty for 3 years (that was extra, but I didn't have to buy it at the same time I bought the notebook...) Additional reasons for G5: 1. Powerbook did its job so well that a Mac desktop seemed perfectly useful. 2. PCI-X, AGP 8x, SATA, TOSlink in/out now rather than in 6-12 months. 3. 7 fans, approximately 30 db total noise. The thing's virtually silent. 4. Sexy industrial case to match Powerbook 5. Same 3 year warranty thing applies 6. Because of the warranty deal applying to the display if purchased with the machine, I was able to justify replacing my 21 CRT with a 20 wide aspect LCD. The screen real-estate is about the same, the brightness scale is better, and the contrast scale is almost as good. The aspect means less neck strain. Also, while I averaged two headaches a week using my CRT for long periods, I have not had one computer-induced headache since I switched to the LCD. (I was expecting a reduction, not an elimination.) 7. With probable exception of video card and RAM, two years from now I'm not extremely likely to feel that my hardware isn't able to do what I need it to (because it currently can do more than I need it to..) 8. Replacing my Linux box with a Mac was easy because I basically still run all of the Linux software that was actually useful. That which was generally crappy (most of KDE and Gnome) has been replaced by native MacOS X applications which work better anyway. 9. Still faster than anything Intel has matching price and features 10. Did I mention the sexy industrial design? 11. And the 30db or so? 12. That I have been a NeXT fan since I was a kid? ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
On Saturday 15 November 2003 08:14 am, T. Joseph Carter wrote: : On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 11:25:03PM -0800, Bob Miller wrote: : When Havoc is done with Gnome 2.6, it will have only one button : labelled Do stuff. : : You say that like it's a bad thing. Why exactly did you buy a Mac, : again? well... a person should use whatever computer they like best... If I wasnt paying for it, Id probably have a titanium 15 (or 17) Although the performance difference between the fastest pc, and fastest mac is really neglegable (either will do the same things just about as fast... ) the mac claiming the g5 is the fastest computer on the planet seemd pretty lame... Heres PC mag's benchmarks... http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1274637,00.asp Looks to me it kind of depends on what your doing... I also read (but cannot confirm) that apples benchmarking was simular to the benchmarking linux/NT a few years back... I see PC's having a much more robust hardware market, and much lower prices (aprox 1/2 the cost of the comparable mac). : : Several reasons (why I bought my Powerbook): : : 1. Ability to actually open Word documents people keep giving me without :them getting annoyed when I tell them that OOo ate the thing. OOo sigh... OpenOffice was a disapointment to me. however abiword or even kword work fine. : 2. The need to not need to fix something every time I have a paper, :project, midterm, or other high-stress school thing pending in order to :complete that thing. (OOo and, under Gentoo, ghostscript were common :culprits, though portions of Gnome were also a factor..) never had a problem with ghostscript either... : 3. Sick and tired of hardware with half-assed support. ACPI-only notebook :that couldn't be suspended in Linux safely, poor battery life because :the speed controls didn't work, four button touchpad which only worked :as two button because there was no driver, softmodems, PCI database, :printer drivers which required annoying long command lines to print at :more than 300 DPI and took 10-15 minutes to print a six page document, :etc. Well.. I can agree with this one, If hardware manufacturers didnt only write drivers for windows, this wouldnt be much of a problem. The trick to this is buy hardware that has either been around long enough for linux drivers to exist. But then again, how many buttons work on your mac pointing device? With a mac, your even more limited by what hardware you can use. : 4. NeXT. The first thing I ever hacked on was an Apple //e. Then a :little on a Mac, then I got a look at a NeXT box. Somewhere I went :back to a IIgs and then wound up with a PC. The NeXT box was the :single best-designed things I'd ever used, and that statement holds :true to date. groovy... so nostalgia is reason to buy a computer? I liked the commodore much better than the apple 2... neither were all that great, but the commodore would boot w/out a disk, which is a decent feature I wish carried over in the modern computing world! The commodore was real easy to program too... incuding sound and color (a big deal 20 years ago), much nicer than my trs-80! : 5. Architecture. I know some 603e-era PPC asm. It's sane. The PPC is a :well-designed processor. IA32 is basically a series of incremental :hacks on the 8080A, which was a pretty lousy processor even then, hence :the high usage of the 6809 and 6502. True... back then motorola made much better CPU's than Intel, Intel based CPU's really havnt made any big advancements, just gotten bigger... : 6. 640 MB RAM, 60 GB disk, USB, Firewire, 802.11g, DVD-R, and Bluetooth in :one small package that gets on average 4 hours battery life, and can be :held in one arm comfortably (I did so with the Gateway often, but it :was never comfortable..) eh... I can find many laptops under $1000 that meet this criteria. which gives you many design choices too... many for 1/2 the cost of the powerbook. If you like light computers, sony makes some really nice ones, much nicer than the powerbook IMHO. If you dont like sony, there are other manufacturers too (such as the averatec (a bit under powered, but can be found for $700)). There are plenty of other options too... I also can run linux, windows, bsd, ... just not mac os. : 7. Price for all of that for me as a student was $1649. NO IA32 notebook :at the time could match the feature set at that price. It's still :nearly impossible to get IA32 notebooks with the featureset integrated :(mainly the DVD-R), but it is now at least possible on $2500-3000 :models. really dell will give you a dvd-r free on any of their notebooks... you can get them with most any notebook manufacturer that uses removable bay's in thier laptops... you can even put a spare battery in that slot if you prefer! : 8. Sexy metal keyboard I like that too! and the iluminated panel. : 9. Warranty for 3 years
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 12:35:06PM -0500, Linux Rocks ! wrote: On Saturday 15 November 2003 08:14 am, T. Joseph Carter wrote: : 2. The need to not need to fix something every time I have a paper, :project, midterm, or other high-stress school thing pending in order to :complete that thing. (OOo and, under Gentoo, ghostscript were common :culprits, though portions of Gnome were also a factor..) Yeah, whoever maintains ghostscript in gentoo wasn't paying attention to what was happening in CUPS. However, I give them credit for using ESP ghostscript, which supports more than either AFPL or regular GNU ghostscript. : 3. Sick and tired of hardware with half-assed support. ACPI-only notebook :that couldn't be suspended in Linux safely, poor battery life because :the speed controls didn't work, four button touchpad which only worked :as two button because there was no driver, softmodems, PCI database, :printer drivers which required annoying long command lines to print at :more than 300 DPI and took 10-15 minutes to print a six page document, :etc. Well.. I can agree with this one, If hardware manufacturers didnt only write drivers for windows, this wouldnt be much of a problem. The trick to this is buy hardware that has either been around long enough for linux drivers to exist. Or use hardware from manufacturers that want their hardware to be supported by Linux. In the printer realm, that would be Epson and HP. You don't have to type out long commands to get varying print quality with CUPS + gimp-print. You just have to set up different print queues for your printer, which you can do with lpr[ng] also, and has been the standard way to print at varying qualities on UNIX since BSD lpr. Hell, you can even graphically set up different print filters in KDE! Sorry, but griping about printing under Linux, IMHO, only shows that you didn't do your homework, either when buying the printer or when setting up your printing system. : 7. Price for all of that for me as a student was $1649. NO IA32 notebook :at the time could match the feature set at that price. It's still :nearly impossible to get IA32 notebooks with the featureset integrated :(mainly the DVD-R), but it is now at least possible on $2500-3000 :models. really dell will give you a dvd-r free on any of their notebooks... you can get them with most any notebook manufacturer that uses removable bay's in thier laptops... you can even put a spare battery in that slot if you prefer! Sony actuallly has a DVD-R/CD-RW/standalone mp3 player personal multimedia device that's the size of a Walkman that plugs into USB. I can't find it on sony.com, but I have a flier for it that came with a DVD+/-RW I just got. : 9. Warranty for 3 years (that was extra, but I didn't have to buy it at :the same time I bought the notebook...) do some reading on the net, there are a lot of unhappy mac buyers, many are diehard mac users that have gotten crappy hardware, and worse support. with the mac, your pretty much stuck with mac support too... Nearest I can tell, mac support and the quality of mac hardware went down the tubes a year or more ago... which is a real shame, as that was where they really shined. That, and they are obvious cohorts with Adobe. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
T. Joseph Carter wrote: On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 11:25:03PM -0800, Bob Miller wrote: When Havoc is done with Gnome 2.6, it will have only one button labelled Do stuff. You say that like it's a bad thing. Why exactly did you buy a Mac, again? Several reasons (why I bought my Powerbook): Thank you for the detailed answer. But I asked the question wrong. Sorry. Let me try again, hopefully more clearly and with less sarcasm. How can you complain about new GNOME releases reducing UI configurability when you prefer MacOS, the poster child for one-size-fits-all UI? (Does Apple even ship two button mice yet?) 2. The need to not need to fix something every time I have a paper, project, midterm, or other high-stress school thing pending in order to complete that thing. (OOo and, under Gentoo, ghostscript were common culprits, though portions of Gnome were also a factor..) I could have helped you solve that problem. You identified it precisely, right down to the file and line, in this email. Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:41:01 -0700 From: Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Eugene Unix and GNU/Linux User Group's mail list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [eug-lug]gentoo questions ACCEPT_KEYWORDS=~x86 is good to have in /etc/make.conf if you like to live on the bleeding edge. I use it now and am much happier with it than without, since it means I get fixes faster. It also means I get bugs faster, but what can you do? -- Bob Miller Kbob kbobsoft software consulting http://kbobsoft.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
The standard Microsoft Optical is a perfect mouse for Mac or PC OS's. ;) Microshaft software on the other hand is far from perfect for anything. --- Bob Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How can you complain about new GNOME releases reducing UI configurability when you prefer MacOS, the poster child for one-size-fits-all UI? (Does Apple even ship two button mice yet?) __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 12:35:06PM -0500, Linux Rocks! wrote: : On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 11:25:03PM -0800, Bob Miller wrote: : When Havoc is done with Gnome 2.6, it will have only one button : labelled Do stuff. : : You say that like it's a bad thing. Why exactly did you buy a Mac, : again? well... a person should use whatever computer they like best... If I wasnt paying for it, Id probably have a titanium 15 (or 17) Yeah, but the Ti 15 is getting a bit dated now and did feel a little flimsy. The Al 15 and 17 are very nice machines, but if you wanted to run Linux on them, the Albooks (all three sizes) contain stuff for which no open source driver exists. The first thing you'd notice is the lack of support for 802.11g. There also isn't a traditional PCMCIA slot (because you already have everything you'd put into PCMCIA onboard anyway), so you would have to try to find a way to physically get an Airport Card into the port designed for the smaller Airport Extreme card. If you are going to run it as a mac, it's good to leave it like it is. Although the performance difference between the fastest pc, and fastest mac is really neglegable (either will do the same things just about as fast... ) the mac claiming the g5 is the fastest computer on the planet seemd pretty lame... Heres PC mag's benchmarks... http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1274637,00.asp Note that fastest computer on the planet wasn't in my list. =) The very day the G5 test results came back and showed the dual G5 to be faster than anything the competition had which wasn't classified as a server machine, immediately some midrange dual processor servers began to get reclassified as ultra-high-end desktop machines to rival the G5's speed (at higher than G5 costs, I note..) The November issue of Macworld even shows that these ultra-high end desktop PCs are notably faster than the G5 for Microsoft Office (you're surprised that Office runs better under Windows right?) and the same with Adobe Premiere. (They didn't test against Final Cut Pro, and they cited that indeed it is widely accepted that Final Cut Pro is a much better program - but there's no equivalent on the PC..) There were some places that the G5 did not do so well, which surprised the reviewers. Didn't surprise me because the software is pre-G5 and still ran well enough. Recompile it with a G5 target and it'll smoke Windows in benchmarks.. ;) Of course, we know that there are lies, damned lies, and benchmarks. Apple's fastest desktop claim was made based on a test performed in August (later tests have not been made because it would no longer be quite true..) The only thing that is true is that you're not likely to notice 20ms difference for some of the big tasks, and for the things which require several seconds or even minutes (complex rendering and the like), a few extra seconds either way won't matter PC or Mac. Looks to me it kind of depends on what your doing... I also read (but cannot confirm) that apples benchmarking was simular to the benchmarking linux/NT a few years back... The testers documented exactly how they tested. The claims that the testing was skewed are: 1. Apple used a malloc they don't use in MacOS X normally that trades RAM efficiency for speed. - True, and they shipped the G5 with a MacOS X 10.2.7 designed only for the G5. The malloc tested was the malloc shipped. (This is the reason why I feel like the machine is not as fast as it should be when I really push it - too easily starts swapping..) Wasting RAM for speed is a common speed optimization - ask any game programmer today how much RAM they could save if they game didn't have to run at 60 FPS on their hardware target. 2. Hyperthreading was disabled on the fastest Intel box - True again. Turns out that Hyperthreading was skewing the results AGAINST Intel (ie, slowing the Intel box down), so they turned it off, according to Apple. Apple offered the Hyperthreading scores but I do not know if they have been independently verified. 3. All of the code that mattered was compiled for the 64 bit G5 itself using an optimizing compiler. The Intel boxes weren't subject to the same optimizing. - The compiler was gcc which _is_ good, but it's not THAT good. And yeah, the tests were compiled for the G5 using a G5 target. I do not know what compiler was used in Windows, probably VC++. gcc comes with every G5 sold, VC++ is a seperate (expensive) add-on. VC++ is, though, the standard Win32 compiler. Comparing gcc's generated code (normal on the G5) to VC++'s (normal in Windows) is indeed a fair comparison IMO. You can get better optimized Win32 compilers, but they're far from standard issue. 4. As soon as the benchmarks were published, they were obsolete. The claims made by Apple based on those benchmarks are a PR move and nothing more. - Well duh. This
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
Linux Rocks ! wrote: I liked the commodore much better than the apple 2... neither were all that great, but the commodore would boot w/out a disk, which is a decent feature I wish carried over in the modern computing world! We have Linux boxes and distros that will boot from floppy, from flash memory (CompactFlash or USB), over Ethernet using PXE, or from CD-ROM. I think your wish has been granted. -- Bob Miller Kbob kbobsoft software consulting http://kbobsoft.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
T. Joseph Carter wrote: Let's see what Dell has to say. $2824 This is a fairly silly comparison. Why match every useless feature Steve saw fit to bundle into the G5? Instead, let's see what Apple would charge for a Mac that matches the box ComputerBase built for me in July. I needed a new motherboard, CPU, and RAM. I chose a P4 (hyperthreaded, 800 MHz FSB, 2.4GHz), 2 GB of PC3200 RAM, and an Intel D865PERL. (Not my first choice of motherboard, but I needed the new computer the same day. So for comparison, use the prices charged at The Macintosh Store on 8th. (-: ) I didn't need disk drives (already had 'em with RedHat and two years' work preinstalled), CD-ROM, DVD, video, sound, firewire, NIC, case, power supply, or video editing software. The closest thing, pricewise, in the Apple Store, is a 1.6 GHz G5. With 2GB RAM, it's $2945. Never mind that if I'd bought a Mac that day, I'd also need a new display and all new software, which is never free on Macs. Oh, did The Macintosh Store have G5s in stock in July? Might have had to settle for a G4. I paid $550. Got it in an hour. There. I've just proven a Mac costs 5X as much as a comparable PC. (-: Is my comparison any less valid than yours? (Yes, I'm aware that my comparison is about as valid as a SCO legal brief. But so is yours.) The thing is, the PC ecosystem is broad, deep and complex. There are five vendors competing for every niche in it, from CPU to video card to case to the little screws that hold the PCI cards in. The Mac ecosystem is single source from top to bottom, exactly three products at any time, cleverly positioned so that only the top product has all the useful features. When Apple screws up -- ships a faulty/unreliable product, can't meet demand, or misses a development schedule, Mac users have no alternative. PC users just buy another brand. One is rain forest, the other is parking lot. The other thing is, the Mac has a closed, proprietary software architecture. Just like Windows. More so, in fact, since Apple owns it from the apps to the chips. The PC, especially with Linux or *BSD, is infinitely diverse. You always have choices, including the choice to rewrite it your way. (That's why we're FOSS zealots, after all.) I'm glad you like your Mac and your iBook. I'm glad they work for you and for the other EUGLUGsters who have them. But don't for a minute think Apple has the only viable platform. Disclaimer: I've owned three Macs. I've worked at Apple. I first developed for Mac in 1985. -- Bob Miller Kbob kbobsoft software consulting http://kbobsoft.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
Bob Miller wrote: We have Linux boxes and distros that will boot from floppy, from flash memory (CompactFlash or USB), over Ethernet using PXE, or from CD-ROM. I think your wish has been granted. Oops, forgot LinuxBIOS. http://www.linuxbios.org/ -- Bob Miller Kbob kbobsoft software consulting http://kbobsoft.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
(Didn't notice there was more..) On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 12:35:06PM -0500, Linux Rocks! wrote: : Several reasons (why I bought my Powerbook): : : 1. Ability to actually open Word documents people keep giving me without :them getting annoyed when I tell them that OOo ate the thing. OOo sigh... OpenOffice was a disapointment to me. however abiword or even kword work fine. Abiword may one day be the Linux word processor of choice. It's not today, though. =( : 2. The need to not need to fix something every time I have a paper, :project, midterm, or other high-stress school thing pending in order to :complete that thing. (OOo and, under Gentoo, ghostscript were common :culprits, though portions of Gnome were also a factor..) never had a problem with ghostscript either... Some packages in gentoo are just bound to have problems. I don't know why. Ghostscript and Imagemagick were two of the biggies, and obviously if everything you print goes through one or both, that's Very Bad. Both just seem to work in other dists such as Debian and SuSE. *shrug* Well.. I can agree with this one, If hardware manufacturers didnt only write drivers for windows, this wouldnt be much of a problem. The trick to this is buy hardware that has either been around long enough for linux drivers to exist. But then again, how many buttons work on your mac pointing device? With a mac, your even more limited by what hardware you can use. A reply to this notes that HP and Epson both support Linux. This is a nice HP printer with an HP driver written by HP. =) My powerbook has one button, but the OS is designed to only need one. X11 typically needs three. When you have four and two won't work, it's frustrating. I typically use an optical mouse with my Powerbook when I'm doing heavy GUI stuff and I have never used the single button mouse which came with my G5. Just because the OS works with one button doesn't mean that Mac users settle for one. The biggest plea of mac users today is for Apple to begin shipping two or three button mice with scroll wheels with computers and, more importantly, integrated on iBooks and Powerbooks. Apple isn't going to budge on this point, but there have been mumblings here and there about swapping the Apple/Synaptics touchpad in notebooks for one made by a third party (also a Synaptics device) which provides at least two buttons. With few exceptions, USB and firewire devices Just Work. (These are the primary expansion methods on a mac..) We are somewhat careful about IDE, SATA, SCSI, and Firewire PCI cards we put into PowerMacs not because drivers don't exist for them (many do have drivers) but because we want something supported by the existing drivers so that we will have no trouble booting off the drives in them. The distressing point is the number of PCI network chipsets which are not supported by Darwin. One notable excuse is that every Mac has Ethernet onboard and the onboard ethernet is supported. There are, at this time not many Gigabit chipsets, and at least one of the major ones is supported. 3rd party Broadcomm 802.11g is supported, and so is anything based on the Proxim/Lucent Orinoco 802.11b chipset. Generic Prism support would be nice since it is by far more common than Orinoco (which is better but sells for a premium, even in 3rd party labelled and OEM channels.) BSD drivers can be ported (some of them have been) and Linux drivers could be, but Apple could never include those drivers because of the GPL. : 4. NeXT. The first thing I ever hacked on was an Apple //e. Then a :little on a Mac, then I got a look at a NeXT box. Somewhere I went :back to a IIgs and then wound up with a PC. The NeXT box was the :single best-designed things I'd ever used, and that statement holds :true to date. groovy... so nostalgia is reason to buy a computer? I liked the commodore much better than the apple 2... neither were all that great, but the commodore would boot w/out a disk, which is a decent feature I wish carried over in the modern computing world! The commodore was real easy to program too... incuding sound and color (a big deal 20 years ago), much nicer than my trs-80! The NeXT is still one of the best designed things out there today. I basically bought a brand-spanking new NeXT box - made of aluminum rather than magnesium. =) : 5. Architecture. I know some 603e-era PPC asm. It's sane. The PPC is a :well-designed processor. IA32 is basically a series of incremental :hacks on the 8080A, which was a pretty lousy processor even then, hence :the high usage of the 6809 and 6502. True... back then motorola made much better CPU's than Intel, Intel based CPU's really havnt made any big advancements, just gotten bigger... Better is a matter of perspective, as someone who programmed both. Hardware-wise, the 8080A was lovely for the time. The 6502 was much harder to program because it
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 02:01:48PM -0801, Jacob Meuser wrote: Or use hardware from manufacturers that want their hardware to be supported by Linux. In the printer realm, that would be Epson and HP. My HP printer, with HP driver, with HP documentation? You don't have to type out long commands to get varying print quality with CUPS + gimp-print. You just have to set up different print queues for your printer, which you can do with lpr[ng] also, and has been the standard way to print at varying qualities on UNIX since BSD lpr. Hell, you can even graphically set up different print filters in KDE! Sorry, but griping about printing under Linux, IMHO, only shows that you didn't do your homework, either when buying the printer or when setting up your printing system. While I did not write the printing HOWTO or linuxprinting.org, I have sent in corrections to both, have set up CUPS for a number of Linux geeks, and know all about well-supported printers and print queues. I DID select my printer based on Linux support as well as cartridge technology (integrated printheads - something HP does that Epson does not, which means unless you print something about twice a day, Epsons will be wasting ink to keep the print heads clean..) The need to reconfigure the print software to add a new print queue every time you need different settings is ANNOYING, and the print times are unacceptable. It is possible to work around these factors, but that is where the complex command lines come in. Of course I had seperate print queues for the commonly used choices, but even those took minutes to print a single page. Sony actuallly has a DVD-R/CD-RW/standalone mp3 player personal multimedia device that's the size of a Walkman that plugs into USB. I can't find it on sony.com, but I have a flier for it that came with a DVD+/-RW I just got. It's a nice alternative for the average laptop with USB2, but the built-in aspect of the one in my Powerbook is very nice. Limitation: no 3 CDs, it's a slot-loader. That, and they are obvious cohorts with Adobe. Explain why Premiere for mac has languished so much then while it is still the best choice for Windows? Adobe got really annoyed when Apple started working on Final Cut Pro. ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 03:50:58PM -0800, Bob Miller wrote: You say that like it's a bad thing. Why exactly did you buy a Mac, again? Several reasons (why I bought my Powerbook): Thank you for the detailed answer. But I asked the question wrong. Sorry. Let me try again, hopefully more clearly and with less sarcasm. How can you complain about new GNOME releases reducing UI configurability when you prefer MacOS, the poster child for one-size-fits-all UI? You haven't used MacOS X much? ;) The modern mac is essentially (and most would say effectively) suffers from multiple personality disorder. One one hand you have a Mac which works the way a mac should work, dating back to a 1985 philosophy of keeping everything blissfully simple for idiots who can't handle anything complex or technical. This is what Havoc is trying to create with new versions of Gnome, but it doesn't quite work all that well. The extreme example of this idiotproofing on the mac are the iLife apps. Most of these are metal apps with brushed metal windows, big plastic-looking buttons, and are designed as some kind of fusion between an appliance and a program. They make it easy to do relatively complex things, but are not what we'd call designed for the advanced user. No complex settings or knobs to tweak. Pro apps have TONS of knobs to do everything you ever wanted to do, and many things you would never expect to do. Ever. They vary in how much direct control you have over the system, but still they are largely one size fits all approaches. Just that the one size is bigger than most people know what to do with. Many of these (all of them from Apple) use a Pro widget set thatis designed to be very small and unobtrusive so that all of the features and controls will fit into the available space. Adaptive GUI elements are also becoming much more popular. For example, the system font selector window can be left open as a palette and will show as many settings or as few as you make room for. Others adaptive interface programs include additional elements which are hidden unless you ask for them to be shown, allowing great simplicity or great complexity. This type of software (be it applcation, applet, or system service) are described as a few sizes should fit most everyone. The UNIX personality is the one that you wouldn't think fits in very well. Terminals sound like they should be out of place, but they are no more so than they were under NeXT. These days you also get an X server, so you can run many X11 programs with little difference over how they work on the average Linux box, including both Gnome and KDE (these run better if X11 does have a root window, which is an option.. Get a 3 button mouse for X11 or you'll be sorry.) Those who do not understand the UNIX personality much (and there are many in the mac world who don't) still find themselves learning just a bit about it because this is where you break the one-size-fits-all aspect of ... the other three personalities. =) Most of these programs include features which are not in the GUI, even after you customize all of your toolbars and enable all of the available plugins. In order to set, change, or enable these features, you'll usually need to use the defaults command or edit the plist files. (NeXTisms both, though the plist files are XML these days..) Plist, resource, and nib hacking are the normal way to do things in NeXT that the app author never intended for the average person to do, and they work quite well. (Does Apple even ship two button mice yet?) No, but the OS is designed throughout to use one if you have it. In fact, Panther provides good things to do with up to five mouse buttons if you've got them. More than five and you'll have to figure out for yourself what to do with the rest. 2. The need to not need to fix something every time I have a paper, project, midterm, or other high-stress school thing pending in order to complete that thing. (OOo and, under Gentoo, ghostscript were common culprits, though portions of Gnome were also a factor..) I could have helped you solve that problem. You identified it precisely, right down to the file and line, in this email. Actually, I went ~x86 in order to try and solve that problem. It had mixed results (solved some, created others..) I mostly stopped updating anything that didn't need to be updated to fix a problem or security hole. ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
On Saturday 15 November 2003 09:47 pm, Bob Miller wrote: : Linux Rocks ! wrote: : I liked the commodore much better than the apple 2... neither were : all that great, but the commodore would boot w/out a disk, which is : a decent feature I wish carried over in the modern computing world! : : We have Linux boxes and distros that will boot from floppy, from flash : memory (CompactFlash or USB), over Ethernet using PXE, or from CD-ROM. : I think your wish has been granted. forgot about CF... that is an option... its still not as nice as rom though... I think the commodore OS was about 25k, nowadays it would have to be a few meg at least... Id like to see a system that more like a few gig and be part of the system ram, like a simm that you pop in and is electronicly re-programmable, but non-volitile. and hard drives that didnt come on unless you needed them and ofcourse dirt cheap so that everyone could have them! Jamie -- Dijkstra probably hates me. -- Linus Torvalds, in kernel/sched.c ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
Gee... I thought that was pretty much what I said... I guess you(bob) put it better than I did... another thing not mentioned, while macinosh hardware (used to atleast) be among higher quality, its not alway the best quality, and with the PC, you do have the option of higher quality parts (and or lower quality too...) Jamie On Saturday 15 November 2003 10:34 pm, Bob Miller wrote: : T. Joseph Carter wrote: : Let's see what Dell has to say. : : $2824 : : This is a fairly silly comparison. Why match every useless feature : Steve saw fit to bundle into the G5? Instead, let's see what Apple : would charge for a Mac that matches the box ComputerBase built for me : in July. : : I needed a new motherboard, CPU, and RAM. I chose a P4 : (hyperthreaded, 800 MHz FSB, 2.4GHz), 2 GB of PC3200 RAM, and an Intel : D865PERL. (Not my first choice of motherboard, but I needed the new : computer the same day. So for comparison, use the prices charged at : The Macintosh Store on 8th. (-: ) I didn't need disk drives (already : had 'em with RedHat and two years' work preinstalled), CD-ROM, DVD, : video, sound, firewire, NIC, case, power supply, or video editing : software. : : The closest thing, pricewise, in the Apple Store, is a 1.6 GHz G5. : With 2GB RAM, it's $2945. Never mind that if I'd bought a Mac that : day, I'd also need a new display and all new software, which is never : free on Macs. Oh, did The Macintosh Store have G5s in stock in July? : Might have had to settle for a G4. : : I paid $550. Got it in an hour. : : There. I've just proven a Mac costs 5X as much as a comparable PC. (-: : Is my comparison any less valid than yours? (Yes, I'm aware that my : comparison is about as valid as a SCO legal brief. But so is yours.) : : : The thing is, the PC ecosystem is broad, deep and complex. There are : five vendors competing for every niche in it, from CPU to video card : to case to the little screws that hold the PCI cards in. The Mac : ecosystem is single source from top to bottom, exactly three : products at any time, cleverly positioned so that only the top product : has all the useful features. When Apple screws up -- ships a : faulty/unreliable product, can't meet demand, or misses a development : schedule, Mac users have no alternative. PC users just buy another : brand. : : One is rain forest, the other is parking lot. : : The other thing is, the Mac has a closed, proprietary software : architecture. Just like Windows. More so, in fact, since Apple owns : it from the apps to the chips. The PC, especially with Linux or *BSD, : is infinitely diverse. You always have choices, including the choice : to rewrite it your way. (That's why we're FOSS zealots, after all.) : : : I'm glad you like your Mac and your iBook. I'm glad they work for you : and for the other EUGLUGsters who have them. But don't for a minute : think Apple has the only viable platform. : : Disclaimer: I've owned three Macs. I've worked at Apple. I first : developed for Mac in 1985. -- Linux poses a real challenge for those with a taste for late-night hacking (and/or conversations with God). -- Matt Welsh ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
On Saturday 15 November 2003 10:54 pm, T. Joseph Carter wrote: : (Didn't notice there was more..) : : On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 12:35:06PM -0500, Linux Rocks! wrote: : : Several reasons (why I bought my Powerbook): : : : : 1. Ability to actually open Word documents people keep giving me : : without them getting annoyed when I tell them that OOo ate the thing. : : OOo sigh... OpenOffice was a disapointment to me. however abiword or even : kword work fine. : : Abiword may one day be the Linux word processor of choice. It's not : today, though. =( I have no complaints about abiword... works great for me. much better than OOo/StarOffice, but then I really dont use that type of software often... : : eh... I can find many laptops under $1000 that meet this criteria. which : gives you many design choices too... many for 1/2 the cost of the : powerbook. If you like light computers, sony makes some really nice ones, : much nicer than the powerbook IMHO. If you dont like sony, there are : other manufacturers too (such as the averatec (a bit under powered, but : can be found for $700)). There are plenty of other options too... I also : can run linux, windows, bsd, ... just not mac os. : : Show me one sub-$1000 IA32 notebook that writes DVDs without hanging a : drive off a USB or Firewire port. I have yet to see it. well... I was thinking about DVD players mostly... every laptop Ive looked at recently has DVD (not RW), and CDRW, most are built in, but some are removable. The Dell (even the $600 one) did have many optical drive options (no extra charge) of DVDR, CD/DVD, CDRW, or CD. I think the DVDR was 4x, CD/ DVD was 24x RW, 8x DVD read I think. anyway you get the picture... If you buy a laptop with removable optical drive bay, you can replace it with whatever comes out next year... or even use it as a extra battery slot, or floppy, ... many of the sub $1000 laptops are all in one units, with no removable drives, but not all. How comfortable the keyboard/pointer is probably a better reason to buy one laptop over another IMHO. : ___ : EuG-LUG mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug -- I'm an idiot.. At least this [bug] took about 5 minutes to find.. Disquieting ... -- Gonzalo Tornaria in response to Linus Torvalds's ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
[eug-lug]Gnome2
I switched from Enlightenment to Gnome2.2 with Metacity about a month ago. I like the Gnome2 better at this point simply b/c it integrates better with other apps. But there are 2 things that bother me... 1. I can't set up my own keybindings to launch various programs. Gnome has default keybindings such as minimizing windows, moving to different viewports, etc. But I cannot find a way to set up a keybinding to launch my xterm, for instance. Something I grew accustomed to with E. 2. I run gkrellm, and when I alt-tab to different windows, it shows up in the list of windows. I can't find where or how to make that not happen. Enlightement had an option on all windows to include them in the list or not. I'm going to go to gkrellm in a moment -- maybe there is a plugin or something. If anyone knows how to fix these, please tell me. You'll be my Gnome savior. :) -Rob ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
For the gkrellm issue: if you're using a new enough version of gkrellm, there is a configuration option in its GUI to achieve what you want: Right-click on gkrellm, and select configuration (or hit F1 when gkrellm has focus), then in the General area, select the second tab, Properties. There you'll see options for whether to set as a dock/panel type, as well as finer-grade options like inclusion on taskbar and pager... if your version does not have that, you might look for a gkrellm-plugins-gnome which offers similar functionality. Enjoy, Ben PS - I'm using version 2.1.12, with -plugins-utils, -plugins-media, and -plugins-misc (and a -themes package for 2.1.8)... I like it a lot, use the Glass2 theme, and generally don't bother with -plugins-media on systems which I'm only monitoring (as opposed to my workstation, where I enable the moon clock as well). Turn down the updates to 2/sec, too! On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 08:58:38 -0800 Rob Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I switched from Enlightenment to Gnome2.2 with Metacity about a month | ago. I like the Gnome2 better at this point simply b/c it integrates | better with other apps. But there are 2 things that bother me... | | 1. I can't set up my own keybindings to launch various programs. | Gnome has default keybindings such as minimizing windows, moving to | different viewports, etc. But I cannot find a way to set up a | keybinding to launch my xterm, for instance. Something I grew | accustomed to with E. | | 2. I run gkrellm, and when I alt-tab to different windows, it shows up | in the list of windows. I can't find where or how to make that not | happen. Enlightement had an option on all windows to include them in | the list or not. I'm going to go to gkrellm in a moment -- maybe | there is a plugin or something. | | If anyone knows how to fix these, please tell me. You'll be my Gnome | savior. :) | | -Rob | ___ | EuG-LUG mailing list | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug -- ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 08:58:38 -0800 Rob Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I switched from Enlightenment to Gnome2.2 with Metacity about a month | ago. I like the Gnome2 better at this point simply b/c it integrates | better with other apps. But there are 2 things that bother me... | | 1. I can't set up my own keybindings to launch various programs. | Gnome has default keybindings such as minimizing windows, moving to | different viewports, etc. But I cannot find a way to set up a | keybinding to launch my xterm, for instance. Something I grew | accustomed to with E. | | 2. I run gkrellm, and when I alt-tab to different windows, it shows up | in the list of windows. I can't find where or how to make that not | happen. Enlightement had an option on all windows to include them in | the list or not. I'm going to go to gkrellm in a moment -- maybe | there is a plugin or something. | | If anyone knows how to fix these, please tell me. You'll be my Gnome | savior. :) | | -Rob On 20031114.0924, Ben Barrett said ... For the gkrellm issue: if you're using a new enough version of gkrellm, there is a configuration option in its GUI to achieve what you want: Right-click on gkrellm, and select configuration (or hit F1 when gkrellm has focus), then in the General area, select the second tab, Properties. There you'll see options for whether to set as a dock/panel type, as well as finer-grade options like inclusion on taskbar and pager... if your version does not have that, you might look for a gkrellm-plugins-gnome which offers similar functionality. Yes, I have those options, but it doesn't seem to make any difference... even when I restart gkrellm in between. Strange. The website says these should work too. I have gkrellm 2.1.7, install via apt on debian testing. -Rob ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
Rob, Gnome 2.4 was released a while ago... (came with slack 9.1 atlest!) mabye using a more current version will alevaite some of your problems Jamie On Friday 14 November 2003 12:36 pm, Rob Hudson wrote: : On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 08:58:38 -0800 : : Rob Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: : | I switched from Enlightenment to Gnome2.2 with Metacity about a month : | ago. I like the Gnome2 better at this point simply b/c it integrates : | better with other apps. But there are 2 things that bother me... : | : | 1. I can't set up my own keybindings to launch various programs. : | Gnome has default keybindings such as minimizing windows, moving to : | different viewports, etc. But I cannot find a way to set up a : | keybinding to launch my xterm, for instance. Something I grew : | accustomed to with E. : | : | 2. I run gkrellm, and when I alt-tab to different windows, it shows up : | in the list of windows. I can't find where or how to make that not : | happen. Enlightement had an option on all windows to include them in : | the list or not. I'm going to go to gkrellm in a moment -- maybe : | there is a plugin or something. : | : | If anyone knows how to fix these, please tell me. You'll be my Gnome : | savior. :) : | : | -Rob : : On 20031114.0924, Ben Barrett said ... : : For the gkrellm issue: if you're using a new enough version of gkrellm, : there is a configuration option in its GUI to achieve what you want: : Right-click on gkrellm, and select configuration (or hit F1 when gkrellm : has focus), then in the General area, select the second tab, : Properties. There you'll see options for whether to set as a : dock/panel type, as well as finer-grade options like inclusion on : taskbar and pager... if your version does not have that, you might look : for a gkrellm-plugins-gnome which offers similar functionality. : : Yes, I have those options, but it doesn't seem to make any difference... : even when I restart gkrellm in between. Strange. The website says : these should work too. I have gkrellm 2.1.7, install via apt on debian : testing. : : -Rob : ___ : EuG-LUG mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug -- How do I type for i in *.dvi do xdvi $i done in a GUI? -- Discussion in comp.os.linux.misc on the intuitiveness of interfaces ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [eug-lug]Gnome2
On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 08:58:38AM -0800, Rob Hudson wrote: I switched from Enlightenment to Gnome2.2 with Metacity about a month ago. I like the Gnome2 better at this point simply b/c it integrates better with other apps. But there are 2 things that bother me... 1. I can't set up my own keybindings to launch various programs. Gnome has default keybindings such as minimizing windows, moving to different viewports, etc. But I cannot find a way to set up a keybinding to launch my xterm, for instance. Something I grew accustomed to with E. You don't need to set keybindings. You also don't need to match windows. You don't need to do a lot of things. And Havoc will ensure that you can't do them, even if you want to, because you don't need to. When Havoc is done with Gnome 2.6, it will have only one button labelled Do stuff. ___ EuG-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
[Eug-lug]gnome2
I keep hearing talk of gstreamer and/or rhythmbox. What do these programs do? ___ Eug-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [Eug-lug]gnome2
What is GStreamer? GStreamer allows the construction of graphs of media-handling components, ranging from simple mp3 playback to complex audio (mixing) and video (non-linear editing) processing. Applications can take advantage of advances in codec and filter technology transparently. Developers can add new codecs and filters by writing a simple plugin with a clean, generic interface. GStreamer is released under the LGPL, with many of the included plugins retaining the license of the code they were derived from, usually GPL or BSD http://www.gstreamer.net/ what is rhythmbox --- Rhythmbox which takes its inspiration from Apple's iTunes application, lets you do everything from importing your audio cd's into mp3 or Ogg Vorbis format, and play these music files and other music files you have. Play your music with an assortment of visualization plugins and burn new audio cd's from your music files. It is a one-stop shopping application for all your music needs. http://www.rhythmbox.org/index.phtml Rob Hudson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote*: I keep hearing talk of gstreamer and/or rhythmbox. What do these programs do? ___ Eug-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug ___ Eug-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [Eug-lug]gnome2
What is GStreamer? GStreamer allows the construction of graphs of media-handling components, ranging from simple mp3 playback to complex audio (mixing) and video (non-linear editing) processing. Applications can take advantage of advances in codec and filter technology transparently. Developers can add new codecs and filters by writing a simple plugin with a clean, generic interface. GStreamer is released under the LGPL, with many of the included plugins retaining the license of the code they were derived from, usually GPL or BSD http://www.gstreamer.net/ what is rhythmbox --- Rhythmbox which takes its inspiration from Apple's iTunes application, lets you do everything from importing your audio cd's into mp3 or Ogg Vorbis format, and play these music files and other music files you have. Play your music with an assortment of visualization plugins and burn new audio cd's from your music files. It is a one-stop shopping application for all your music needs. http://www.rhythmbox.org/index.phtml Rob Hudson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote*: I keep hearing talk of gstreamer and/or rhythmbox. What do these programs do? ___ Eug-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug ___ Eug-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [Eug-lug]gnome2
Rob Hudson wrote: I keep hearing talk of gstreamer and/or rhythmbox. What do these programs do? Gstreamer is a multimedia streaming framework. I.e., if you were writing a program that deals with media streams, gstreamer is a library you could call to do the actual moving and rendering of bits. It's a surprisingly hard problem. Rhythmbox I do not know. -- Bob Miller Kbob kbobsoft software consulting http://kbobsoft.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Eug-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
Re: [Eug-lug]gnome2
Rythmbox is a itunes clone. As far as I know it has never worked right. Last time I tried to install it it seg faulted. Oh well -David McCarley On Mon, 2003-01-13 at 16:44, Rob Hudson wrote: I keep hearing talk of gstreamer and/or rhythmbox. What do these programs do? ___ Eug-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug -- David McCarley [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Eug-LUG mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
