date:20180727


Matt Awesome via EV wrote:

Ya gotta think, the crossover between people who use 10x the national
average of electricity, as much energy as the rest of their entire
block, and people who drive EVs, would drive EVs, or would even care
about the monetary savings... is probably exactly zero.


It's not that simple. There are huge variations, so the "average" 
doesn't necessarily apply to all that many people. There are rich people 
with Teslas that use huge amounts of electricity in their McMansions. 
There are all-electric homes that use a huge amount of electricity 
because they don't have gas.



So, I'm not sure how much value there is in such an extreme off-case.


The statistics are slippery. The extremes don't make the case. But 
neither can you take the national average, and assume that everyone is 
like that, right in the middle.


I think each person's situation is a special case. They have to come up 
with solutions that work for their particuar situation -- not rely on 
what "everybody does", because that can easily be wrong for them.


Take the situation for leaving lights on. It seems to me (from observing 
my friends and family, and driving around the neighborhood) that each 
household has one of two strategies:


1. They don't bother to turn lights off. Every light in the house seems 
to be left on.


2. They obsessively turn lights off. The whole house is dark except for 
one or two rooms.


So I don't see a "normal" distribution. I don't see houses (or 
businesses, for that matter) with half the lights on at night. Each is 
at one extreme or the other.


--
Problems that go away by themselves will be back with friends.

Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)


Cor van de Water wrote:

So a tankless heatpump water heater would be the ultimate


Jay Summet wrote:

Yes, but you would need an enormous pump, and exterior condenser unit (and a 
serious electrical service to handle the startup load) to be able to provide 
the 24-27kw of heating power needed for a 3-8 GPM usage.  This would be a unit 
larger than a standard house AC unit.


It would also not be "instant" heat. It takes time for a compressor to 
start and build up pressure, and for it to heat up the "hot" side enough 
to make useful hot water.


An electric heater or gas fired flash boiler is probably the best 
solution for a sink heater. Save the bigger, slower, but more efficient 
solutions for big jobs, like filling a bathtub.


--
Problems that go away by themselves will be back with friends.

Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (corrected)

The calculation was for 50 bulbs 5 hours a day.  In my house, I leave 3
basement lights, and one shop light on all the time (hard to get to the
switches). And outdoors, there are 4 lights on dawn-to dusk (say 10
hours).

So, do the math.  The 4 bulbs on 24/7 are the same as 19  bulbs for 5 h
ours.  The 4 lights on for 10 hours a day are equivalent to another 8 bulbs
in my case of 5 hours.  So you see, already there are 28 of the 50 bulbs.
The other 22 bulbs lncludes the 5 in the dining room fixture, 5 in the
kitchen.  2 each in 2 bathrooms (4 total) and 2 in each bedroom (8 total)
and there is the 50, not counting at least 6 more bulbs scattered around
the house that are not on.  So the 50 bulbs I used seems reasonable.

With three teenagers, all the lights are on from dusk to around midnight.
About a third are 100W, about a third are 75 and about a third are 60.  I
stand by the average of 75W and that saves about 60W each when replaced
with a 9W LED.

I stand by my numbers.

Bob

se 8 lights alone are worth   In 24 hours, that is the same as

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Matt Awesome via EV 
wrote:

> > I stand by my numbers when corrected to a house that leaves most of their
> > lights on all evening and assuming averqaeg 75 Watt incandescent bulbs
> > originally..
>
> Which is some extreme outlier family who's electrical usage is
> literally 10x the average home.
>
> Ya gotta think, the crossover between people who use 10x the national
> average of electricity, as much energy as the rest of their entire
> block, and people who drive EVs, would drive EVs, or would even care
> about the monetary savings... is probably exactly zero.
>
> So, I'm not sure how much value there is in such an extreme off-case.
>
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306261916305360
>
> This has some datasets in Table 3 for hours of lights on in 3 different
> rooms.
>
> The mean for a living room is 7.15 with a standard deviation of 4.32.
> To find someone with not even 3x that (20), you're already looking at
> 1 household out of 1000. Let alone 10x that.
>
> I can't actually find a calculator that'll give me the odds for 71.5
> hours, it's so extraordinarily rare. It's like, one person per state,
> maybe.
>
> > But he equally exaggerated errors.
>
> I don't see that you showed that I did.
>
>  - You're claiming the average bulb in a house is 75W, which is even
> more ridiculous than 60w. Average bulb wattage for incandescents is
> probably 45, maybe 50 watts. I don't think that's an exaggerated claim
> to say you're not saving 100%, you're only saving 80%, which is about
> what I used in my math.
>
>  - I said two vehicles per family. Which is accurate. You said
> swapping bulbs provides the same amount of power needed to charge an
> EV the American average. Okay, true on a technicality but you're
> mixing variables. You're looking at a household average to find the
> savings, and then not using a household average of miles (only an
> individual average of miles). Okay, fine.
>
> Worst case I'm off by a factor of 2 for counting a second vehicle.
> You're off by a factor of 10-15.
>
> You said "Swapping out the average American home from Incandescent
> bulbs to LEDs" but want to amend that to "a house that leaves most of
> their lights on all evening" which is really "a house with also nearly
> double the average bulb wattage" which is off, in terms of
> frequency, by a factor of somewhere in the range of millions to tens
> of millions relative to the actual "average" household's lighting
> requirements.
>
> That's like saying "The average household switching from a lawnmower
> to a pair of nail clippers to mow their lawn will save time!", if by
> "average household" you mean "Those with only 10 blades of grass or
> fewer", which is functionally no one.
>
> ...
>
> I know this seems like I'm being pedantic, but, absurd, extreme
> arguments presented from an energy conservation side are what people
> use to ridicule, mock, and reject making changes in their lives or in
> the policies of government. It's literally as silly as telling people
> to go cut their lawn with nail clippers because it's faster. No, it's
> not, and saying things like that gets genuine problems laughed at.
> ___
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>
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[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20180726



http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Wouldn-t-You-Really-Rather-Have-a-Buick-EV-tp4690693.html
EVLN: Wouldn't You Really Rather Have a Buick? EV
Here's what's coming for Buick
July 25, 2018  -9 hours ago  However, the brand's reported plans, including
an expansion into electric vehicles, could be disrupted by public policy.
GM's impending loss of federal tax credits ...
http://hanabi.autoweek.com/sites/default/files/styles/gen-932-524/public/2018-Buick-Enspire-All-Electric-Concept-02_1.jpg?itok=44_i8D_V


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-C-Zero-i-MiEV-Most-Affordable-European-EV-To-Maintain-tp4690694.html
EVLN: C-Zero(i-MiEV)> Most Affordable European EV To Maintain
Turns Out The Citroen C-Zero Is The Most Affordable EV To Maintain In Europe
July 20th, 2018  · 1d  Although the electric BMW i3 seems to have the best
maintenance schedule, Britain’s most affordable electric vehicle is the
Czero ...
https://cleantechnica.com/files/2018/07/Citroen-C-Zero.jpg


+
https://www.iphoneincanada.ca/news/ontarios-end-to-incentive-hits-tesla-customers/
Tesla Customers Hit by Ontario Government's Sudden End to ...
Jul 20, 2018  Following the Ontario government's sudden end to an incentive
program for electric and hydrogen vehicles, Toronto-area resident Jeff
Sturch, who had drilled a ...
https://cdn.iphoneincanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/jeff.jpg
...
http://www.futurecar.com/2473/Ontario-Abandons-its-Electric-Vehicle-Incentive-Programs


https://www.electrive.com/2018/07/16/electric-isetta-remake-microlino-homologated-in-europe/
Electric Isetta remake Microlino homologated in Europe
Jul 16, 2018  -7 hours ago  The extra small electric car Microlino (
micro-mobility.com ) has completed homologation, making the Swiss EV street
legal in all European countries. Market entry will have to wait ... new
timeline sets production of 25 test vehicles for September ...
https://www.electrive.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Microlino-Vorserie-Premiere1.jpg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] EVLN: C-Zero(i-MiEV)> Most Affordable European EV To Maintain



https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/20/turns-out-the-citroen-c-zero-is-the-most-affordable-ev-to-maintain-in-europe/
Turns Out The Citroen C-Zero Is The Most Affordable EV To Maintain In Europe
July 20th, 2018  Nicolas Zart

[images  
https://cleantechnica.com/files/2018/07/Citroen-C-Zero.jpg

https://cleantechnica.com/files/2018/07/Citroen-C-ZeroMost-Affordable-EV-To-Maintain.jpg

video
https://youtu.be/vAz6GuLm5rY
Art Car E-Mehari by Jean-Charles de Castelbajac
]

Although the electric BMW i3 seems to have the best maintenance schedule,
Britain’s most affordable electric vehicle is the Citroen C-Zero, according
to automotive data specialist HPI.

The lack of clear electric vehicle (EV) maintenance information is confusing
for new drivers. Many people understand that EVs requires little to no
maintenance, but this is certainly not something the majority of the
population understands. Early EV drivers have stories of only changing brake
pads and windshield wipers in the first 70,000 miles, but how many people
looked for a used car have heard such stories?

Carmakers don’t like to talk much about EV maintenance since, technically,
there is often no reason for any in the first 100,000 miles. That’s not to
say there are no costs, though. Understandably, Tesla decided to charge for
yearly check-ups to check out its new package of technology in the
automotive world. Today, all EVs come with some form of the maintenance
schedule.

Citroen C Zero Most Affordable EV To MaintainSo, when FleetNews [
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/fleet-industry-news/2016/11/21/citroen-c-zero-offers-lowest-running-costs-for-used-ev-says-hpi?
] reported that the Citroen C-Zero is “the cheapest used electric vehicle to
run,” we felt that was something the company would want to brag about. After
all, who wouldn’t want to sell a car with little to no maintenance?

HPI is the organization that named the Citroen C-Zero [
https://www.citroen.co.uk/new-cars-and-vans/citroen-range/citroen-c-zero
] the most affordable used electric vehicle to run (in the UK), but not only
— the examination also included hybrids on Britain’s roads. In total, HPI
noted that electric cars and hybrids more than doubled last year from 20,522
to 45,236.

The analysis of lowest running costs includes monthly running costs, cost
per mile, service and maintenance, depreciation, and insurance to calculate
a total cost of motoring. HPI found the Citroen C-Zero came out on top at
£410 monthly, followed by the Peugeot iOn hatchback at £413 and the
Volkswagen e-Up at £526.

Although the Citroen C-Zero is an old car, the new electric Mehari could be
just what the doctor ordered — a seriusly fun EV.

Ultimately, until carmakers find a new business model to make EVs, we’ll
have to look for more affordable EVs like the Citroen C-Zero.
[© cleantechnica.com]
...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV
The Mitsubishi i-MiEV is a five-door hatchback electric car produced by
Mitsubishi Motors, and is the electric version of the Mitsubishi i. Rebadged
variants of the i-MiEV are also sold in Europe by PSA Peugeot Citroën (PSA)
as the Peugeot iOn and Citroën C-Zero ...


+
https://www.electrive.com/2018/07/16/electric-isetta-remake-microlino-homologated-in-europe/
Electric Isetta remake Microlino homologated in Europe
Jul 16, 2018  -7 hours ago  The extra small electric car Microlino (
micro-mobility.com ) has completed homologation, making the Swiss EV street
legal in all European countries. Market entry will have to wait ... new
timeline sets production of 25 test vehicles for September ...
https://www.electrive.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Microlino-Vorserie-Premiere1.jpg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] EVLN: Wouldn't You Really Rather Have a Buick? EV

"Buick's EV plans on ice"

http://autoweek.com/article/rumormill/buick-bulk-crossovers
Buick to bulk up on crossovers
July 25, 2018 Michael Wayland

[images
http://hanabi.autoweek.com/sites/default/files/styles/gen-932-524/public/2018-Buick-Enspire-All-Electric-Concept-02_1.jpg?itok=44_i8D_V
]

Buick's all-electric Enspire was shown as a concept in China. It was
intended for the U.S. market as well, but those plans are likely delayed or
canceled.

Here's what's coming for Buick
Planned expansion into electric vehicles could be halted by low demand, loss
of federal tax credit

Following a lineup overhaul away from sedans in recent years, Buick is
expected to continue to beef up its crossover portfolio with high-end Avenir
models as well as redesigns and freshens of its hottest-selling models.

However, the brand's reported plans, including an expansion into electric
vehicles, could be disrupted by public policy. GM's impending loss of
federal tax credits for alternative fuel vehicles and a lack of customer
demand could push Buick's EV plans for the U.S. into the next decade. And if
the Trump administration is successful in implementing higher tariffs, that
could mean trouble for the entire brand, as every vehicle aside from the
Enclave and LaCrosse is imported, with the Envision coming from China ...

EVs: Behind Chevrolet, Buick was expected to be GM's next brand to embrace
all-electric vehicles in the U.S. However, due to a lack of domestic demand
and the company's impending loss of federal tax credits, those plans may
have been pushed back, if not eliminated, until GM's next-gen EV platform is
released beginning in 2021. The brand is still expected to adopt several EV
models for China, but a Chevy Bolt-based EV — previously expected as early
as next year — may no longer show up in the U.S. If it does come stateside,
it could be a Chevrolet, which already has an established network of dealers
equipped for EVs.

"Buick's EV plans on ice" [
http://www.autonews.com/article/20180723/OEM04/180729980/future-product-buicks-ev-plans-on-ice?profile=-1
] was originally published by Automotive News on 7/23.
[© autoweek.com]
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Wouldn't+You+Really+Rather+Have+a+Buick%3F
Wouldn't You Really Rather Have a Buick?

[dated]
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Spacious-Buick-Enspire-not-a-cheese-grater-EV-r-370mi-0-100kph-4s-tp4689928.html
EVLN: Spacious Buick Enspire> not a cheese-grater EV r:370mi 0-100kph:4s
Buick's all-electric SUV concept packs an impressive 370-mile range ...
Apr 25 2018

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Wouldn-t-you-really-rather-drive-a-geezer-pleasing-Buick-EV-tp4688467.html
Wouldn't you really rather drive a geezer-pleasing Buick EV?
Nov 03, 2017 'Buick will likely position as an upscale alternative to the
Bolt EV' ...

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-GM-noise-Buick-e-SUV-w-Bolt-EV-drivetrain-e-Deuce-1-4-e-225-tp4687543.html
EVLN: (GM noise) Buick e-SUV w/ Bolt EV drivetrain(?) > e-Deuce& 1/4
(e-225)?
All-electric Buick small SUV to be based on Bolt EV:
Aug 03, 2017 ... buick-encore ...

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Vegas-Rat-Rods-1928-Buick-Electric-Rod-One-Creepy-EV-tp4670784.html
EVLN: Vegas Rat Rods' 1928 Buick Electric Rod> One Creepy EV
... going-green part of this EV is mainly its eerie green paint job. In the
show, after the E-Stopp customer asked that his 1928 Buick be Electric, the
VRR owner said he had never made an Electric, and this would be his first (a
piston-head shop doing an EV). New EV components would have cost...
Aug 03, 2014

+
https://www.iphoneincanada.ca/news/ontarios-end-to-incentive-hits-tesla-customers/
Tesla Customers Hit by Ontario Government's Sudden End to ...
Jul 20, 2018 Following the Ontario government's sudden end to an incentive
program for electric and hydrogen vehicles, Toronto-area resident Jeff
Sturch, who had drilled a ...
https://cdn.iphoneincanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/jeff.jpg
...
http://www.futurecar.com/2473/Ontario-Abandons-its-Electric-Vehicle-Incentive-Programs
Ontario Abandons Electric Vehicle Incentive Programs
Jul 21, 2018 -8 hours ago On July 11th, the Ontario Ministry of
Transportation announced the termination of its Electric and Hydrogen
Vehicle Incentive Program and Electric Vehicle ...
http://img.futurecar.com/201807/20/l_5b52442ae1481.jpg
...
https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/after-boom-in-sales-scrapped-electric-vehicle-rebate-could-hurt-1.4021452
After boom in sales, scrapped electric vehicle rebate could hurt
Jul 20, 2018 After boom in sales, scrapped electric vehicle rebate could
hurt ... An incentive program for electric vehicle charging stations
offering $700 rebate was cancelled ...

For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/archive/

{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (corrected)

2018-07-27 Thread Matt Awesome via EV

> I stand by my numbers when corrected to a house that leaves most of their
> lights on all evening and assuming averqaeg 75 Watt incandescent bulbs
> originally..

Which is some extreme outlier family who's electrical usage is
literally 10x the average home.

Ya gotta think, the crossover between people who use 10x the national
average of electricity, as much energy as the rest of their entire
block, and people who drive EVs, would drive EVs, or would even care
about the monetary savings... is probably exactly zero.

So, I'm not sure how much value there is in such an extreme off-case.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306261916305360

This has some datasets in Table 3 for hours of lights on in 3 different rooms.

The mean for a living room is 7.15 with a standard deviation of 4.32.
To find someone with not even 3x that (20), you're already looking at
1 household out of 1000. Let alone 10x that.

I can't actually find a calculator that'll give me the odds for 71.5
hours, it's so extraordinarily rare. It's like, one person per state,
maybe.

> But he equally exaggerated errors.

I don't see that you showed that I did.

 - You're claiming the average bulb in a house is 75W, which is even
more ridiculous than 60w. Average bulb wattage for incandescents is
probably 45, maybe 50 watts. I don't think that's an exaggerated claim
to say you're not saving 100%, you're only saving 80%, which is about
what I used in my math.

 - I said two vehicles per family. Which is accurate. You said
swapping bulbs provides the same amount of power needed to charge an
EV the American average. Okay, true on a technicality but you're
mixing variables. You're looking at a household average to find the
savings, and then not using a household average of miles (only an
individual average of miles). Okay, fine.

Worst case I'm off by a factor of 2 for counting a second vehicle.
You're off by a factor of 10-15.

You said "Swapping out the average American home from Incandescent
bulbs to LEDs" but want to amend that to "a house that leaves most of
their lights on all evening" which is really "a house with also nearly
double the average bulb wattage" which is off, in terms of
frequency, by a factor of somewhere in the range of millions to tens
of millions relative to the actual "average" household's lighting
requirements.

That's like saying "The average household switching from a lawnmower
to a pair of nail clippers to mow their lawn will save time!", if by
"average household" you mean "Those with only 10 blades of grass or
fewer", which is functionally no one.

...

I know this seems like I'm being pedantic, but, absurd, extreme
arguments presented from an energy conservation side are what people
use to ridicule, mock, and reject making changes in their lives or in
the policies of government. It's literally as silly as telling people
to go cut their lawn with nail clippers because it's faster. No, it's
not, and saying things like that gets genuine problems laughed at.
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (corrected)

2018-07-27 Thread Bobby Keeland via EV

I don't know about his interior lights, but my neighbor has several lights
in his carport that are on 24 hours per day.

On Jul 27, 2018 10:58 AM, "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
wrote:

> To make the math work, I should have said, "the average house with
> teenagers leaving all the lights on for 5 hours a day".  [50 lights times
> 60W saved times 5 hours a day = 40 miles daily EV charging]
>
> I stand by my numbers when corrected to a house that leaves most of their
> lights on all evening and assuming averqaeg 75 Watt incandescent bulbs
> originally..
>
> The average house with compulsive behaviors who turn off every unused
> light will be 10% of this as Matt noted...  But he equally exaggerated
> errors.
> .
> On Jul 25, 2018, at 1:08 PM, Matt Awesome via EV 
> wrote:
>
> >> Remember this factoid.
> >> Swapping out the average American home from Incandescent bulbs to
> >> LEDs saves the same amount of power needed to charge an EV the
> >> American 40 mile average per day forever.
> >
> > Plainly, no, it won't.
> >
> >> 50 bulbs saving an average 60 watts each for 5 hours a day is 15 kWh.
> > Who the hell leaves 50 lightbulbs on in their house for 5 hours a day?
> > I don't even think I have 50 lightbulbs in my house, let alone leave
> > them all on 5 hours a day.
> >
> > LEDs aren't free, so, there's not 60watts savings from a 60w bulb.
>
> I assumed an average 75W equivalent bulb (saving 60W) when going to a 9W
> LED.
> And around here, 60W equivalents are about $1 each (probably subsidized by
> the utility).
>
> > How many Kwh does an average US household consume in a day?:  ...
> > That's 27kwh/day.
> >
> > What percentage of an electrical bill is comprised of lighting?: ...
> > Source 3: - 9%.
> > Source 4:  - 6%.
> >
> > The split [might depend] on whether heat is made through gas or
> electricity.
> > So, we could say 27kwh/day of which lighting is 6% or 15kwh/day of
> > which lighting is 9% to at least be in the right ballpark (to arrive at
> this:)
> > - 27kwh*6% = 1.62kwh/day.
> > - 15kwh*9% = 1.35kwh/day.
> >
> > You're claiming 10x that amount in *savings* from switching to LED, ...
>
> Yes, I should have said in some homes who leave every light on all
> evening...
>
> >> Charging an EV at 1.5kw for 10 hours a day is 15 kWh.
> >
> > Since it's not the 1970s, the average household has at least 2
> > vehicles, more when there's teenagers/college kids.
>
> I said for one EV.  I didn't say for every car a household could own.
>
> > Add in that LEDs aren't free, you're off by a factor of 25x.
>
> I included their 9W when subtracted from an incandescent 75W to arrive at
> 60W savings per bulb.
> And around here they only cost $1 each for a 60W LED.
>
> > It would be more accurate to say that by switching from incandescents
> > to LEDs, you could expect to save enough energy to cover 4% of your
> > electric vehicle use. A pretty banal, unsensational, non-headlight
> > grabbing rhetoric for sure, but at least an accurate one.
>
> I stand by my numbers when corrected to a house that leaves most of their
> lights on all evening.
>
> Bob, WB4APR
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ... LEDs (update)


Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

UPDATE:
For grins, I had  the LEDs from a second bulb.  It fully illuminated at the
same 80 volts over 14 LEDs at 60 mA, but was 100% linear among the LEDs.
Every one of the LEDs started dim and ramped up linearly and identical to
each other just as one would expect in a series string.

A retest of the original set still showed the totally erratic threshold
effect of each of the LEDs flicking on and off until all were on at the same
80vdc and 60 ma.  -still  unexplained-


Don't 'cha just love modern "quality control"? :-)

Maybe they got a bag of cheap LEDs with some internal circuit, intended 
for car lights, blinkie toys, or as low battery detectors.

--
Problems that go away by themselves will be back with friends.

Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ... LEDs (update)

UPDATE:
For grins, I had  the LEDs from a second bulb.  It fully illuminated at the
same 80 volts over 14 LEDs at 60 mA, but was 100% linear among the LEDs.
Every one of the LEDs started dim and ramped up linearly and identical to
each other just as one would expect in a series string.

A retest of the original set still showed the totally erratic threshold
effect of each of the LEDs flicking on and off until all were on at the same
80vdc and 60 ma.  -still  unexplained-

-Original Message-
From: Robert Bruninga 
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 10:04 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Robert Bruninga 
Subject: RE: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ... LEDs

> If you're running the LEDs on 120vac, the voltage drop needed is much
larger.

The 60W equivalent I just took apart had a full 14 LEDs in series but still
used a PWM controller.

It took 80 volts DC to get the LED's to their proper brilliance.  So just a
small resistor will do.

This is just the metal disk with the 14 LEDs all in series, no other
electronics.

What was interesting was that 3 came on at around 15 volts, then more and
more came on as the voltage was raised.  And they shifted back and forth at
various levels until they were all on.  Since the bulb was rated at 9 Watts,
and assuming 80% PWM efficiency, then I assumed the LED's were rated at 60
mA. And that took 80 volts.

All the flashing back and forth as each began to illuminate surprised me.
It was almost as if there was a threshold effect.  As a new LED decided to
illuminate, then the series string suffered due to the greater current and
so all the other LED's adjusted.  Some ablve and some below threshold.
All being in series, it looks like there is a significant variability in
their characteristics.  But once I hit 80 volts the current above that was
linear.  But at 80 is also where it got to 60 mA and I did not go much
higher.

I was using a regulated variable DC supply with no series resistor (Supply
was current limited at 120 mA).

PS, this divides out to be about 5.7 volts per LED.  Much higher than the
2.8 mentioned?

Bob
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[EVDL] EVLN: Teardown gives incredible look @Tesla-3 oil filter (v)



https://electrek.co/2018/07/26/tesla-model-3-teardown-electric-powertrain/
Tesla Model 3 teardown gives incredible look at the electric powertrain
Jul. 26th 2018  Fred Lambert

[images  
https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-1.45.09-PM-e1532628208460.jpg?resize=1500%2C0=82=all=1

https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-2.00.22-PM.jpg?w=996=494=82=all=1
Tesla Model 3 drive unit subframe

https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-2.02.00-PM.jpg?w=996=498=82=all=1
Tesla Model 3 drive unit from back side

https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-2.00.44-PM.jpg?w=488=285=82=all=1
Tesla Model 3 drive unit high voltage connector

https://i2.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-2.01.16-PM.jpg?w=504=285=82=all=1
Tesla Model 3 drive unit high voltage connector 2

https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-2.06.12-PM.jpg?quality=82=all=1000Model
3 Drive unit bare

https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-2.09.47-PM.jpg?quality=82=all=1000
Model 3 drive unit oil filter

https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-2.10.05-PM.jpg?quality=82=all=1000
Model 3 drive unit plate stack heat exchanger

https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-2.16.25-PM.jpg?quality=82=all=1000
Model 3 inverter board

https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-2.20.23-PM.jpg?quality=82=all=1000
Model 3 inverter bus bars

https://i2.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-1.55.06-PM.jpg?w=996=474=82=all=1
Model 3 battery pack electronic housing

https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-1.55.17-PM.jpg?w=605=309=82=all=1
Model 3 battery pack electronic housing opened

https://i2.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-1.55.43-PM.jpg?w=387=309=82=all=1
Model 3 charge port connector on the battery pack

https://i2.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-1.55.55-PM.jpg?w=996=558=82=all=1
Model 3 pyro fuse

https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-2.23.25-PM.jpg?w=412=228=82=all=1
Model 3 cooling system reservoir assembly

https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-2.25.55-PM.jpg?w=412=228=82=all=1
Model 3 liquid cooling connection to computers

https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-2.27.29-PM.jpg?w=580=460=82=all=1
Model 3 battery pack cooling line which then splits into 4 connections to
the pack

https://i2.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-2.30.12-PM.jpg?w=508=299=82=all=1
Model 3 cooling connection to the battery pack electronics penthouse

https://i2.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/07/Screen-Shot-2018-07-26-at-2.31.21-PM.jpg?w=484=299=82=all=1
Model 3 cooling connection to the inverter


videos
https://youtu.be/m4eQ7nN_Lwo
First Look: Tesla Model 3 Drive Unit

https://youtu.be/ANLPPKRwiyQ
Model 3 Drive unit bare

https://youtu.be/l6dV2re3rtM
Model 3 Inverter

https://youtu.be/jm_tV8la-0c
Model 3 Battery Pack

https://youtu.be/vgfXyLLaO7I
Model 3 Cooling System Overview

https://youtu.be/fvynATgkp7M
Model 3 High Voltage System Overview
]

On the surface, Tesla’s Model 3 is already highly successful and
well-received among those who have driven it.

But the vehicle’s architecture and technology are also believed to represent
a significant step change by several people doing breakdowns and reverse
engineering the vehicle.

Now we get a great visual look at the powertrain through a new teardown.

After its own Tesla Model 3 teardown, Munro and Associates thought of the
vehicle’s electronics as a masterpiece and a German engineering firm was
also quite impressed after reverse-engineering the Model 3.

The entire powertrain is extremely compact with Tesla incorporating a lot of
the electronics directly into the battery pack enclosure.

We already managed to have a good look at the details of the powertrain
architecture with previously leaked information, but we now get to see the
impressive architecture thanks to longtime Tesla hacker/tinkerer Ingineerix
who has been tearing down a Model 3 and posting a series of videos about the
vehicle’s powertrain.

The videos are very short and to-the-point which makes the whole series easy
to watch and only about half an hour in total and I highly recommend it for
anyone interested in the Model 3 or electric vehicles in general:

... Ingineerix just gives a quick overview of the cooling system on a

[EVDL] EVLN: MDPD adore their Bolt Police EV



http://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/07/yes-this-is-a-chevrolet-bolt-ev-police-car-and-maryland-police-adore-it/
Yes, This Is A Chevrolet Bolt EV Police Car And Maryland Police Adore It
Jul 25, 2018  Sean Szymkowski

[images  
http://gmauthority.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Chevy-Bolt-EV-PPV-for-Hyattsville-Police-01-720x340.jpg
Chevy Bolt EV PPV for Hyattsville Police

http://gmauthority.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Chevy-Bolt-EV-PPV-for-Hyattsville-Police-02-720x463.jpg

http://gmauthority.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Chevy-Bolt-EV-PPV-for-Hyattsville-Police-03-720x391.jpg
]

The Hyattsville, Maryland, police department operates the first Chevrolet
Bolt EV police pursuit vehicle, and perhaps to the surprise of some, it’s
adored.

Chevrolet highlighted the Bolt EV police car in an issue of its “Find New
Roads” owners magazine. And the idea for an electric police car came from
Sergeant Richard Hartnett. Hartnett first floated the idea of a Bolt EV PPV
after learning of its 238-mile range. Other electric cars couldn’t match the
affordability or range requirement the department needed. Without the need
for gasoline, the Bolt EV may even help the department lower its operating
costs.

The 36-year police veteran worked with the Maryland Energy Administration to
obtain a grant that afforded the Bolt EV and two public charging stations.
From there, the department had the electric car outfitted with all necessary
police gear: two-way radio, computer, sirens, graphics, and lighting.

After the department had its concerns addressed over idle times and
usability (the department installed a special device that automatically
disconnects all aftermarket equipment 60 minutes after the vehicle’s
ignition has been turned off), the Bolt EV was cleared for patrol duty.

Hartnett said the Bolt EV’s 238-mile estimated range is plenty of a shift
and its quick acceleration holds its own in surface street pursuits. He
thinks the Bolt EV PPV is a sign of things to come.

“When I’m patrolling in the Bolt EV, I’m out there doing all of the things
that other officers do,” said Hartnett. “But I’m not polluting the air, and
I don’t have any of the other problems that gas-burning vehicles do. It’s
clear to me that EVs like the Bolt EV certainly have a place in law
enforcement.”

It’s been a year since the Bolt EV entered duty, and so successful that the
department has begun looking into adding a second one to its fleet.
[© gmauthority.com]


+
http://www.arabnews.com/node/1344831/corporate-news
First Chevrolet Bolt EV deliveries begin in UAE
4 July 2018   -11 hours ago  The Chevrolet Bolt EV is the brand's first
electric vehicle in the region and the first electric vehicle ever to
combine clean technology with an anxiety-free range of ...
http://www.arabnews.com/sites/default/files/styles/n_670_395/public/main-image/2018/07/24/1262831-1489559416.jpg?itok=RmPDlJGg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Waymo auton pickup order rides to-from Walmart Phoenix-AZ

2018-07-27 Thread Gail Lucas via EV


Bruce,

If Waymo opens shop in LV I am quite sure I will hear about it and I 
will see if I can have a test ride and report back.


Gail

On 7/27/2018 11:23 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

Yes, Gail,
I figured since Las Vegas is only 300mi from Phoenix,
whereas I am over 1000mi, you might hear,
if Waymo does the same deal/shtick in Las Vegas, NV,
or if your network of friends report on what they hear happening in Phoenix,
AZ.



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Re: [EVDL] Waymo auton pickup order rides to-from Walmart Phoenix-AZ

Yes, Gail, 
I figured since Las Vegas is only 300mi from Phoenix, 
whereas I am over 1000mi, you might hear, 
if Waymo does the same deal/shtick in Las Vegas, NV,
or if your network of friends report on what they hear happening in Phoenix,
AZ.




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

> There are ground-based heat pumps ... via a network of buried pipes...
> But this can get very expensive. The decision is economic: How many
> thousands of dollars will you spend to save a dollar a month?

Well the math is easy.  I was spending $3000 a year on heating oil (1000
gallons).
My Ground Source heatpump now heats the house for about $1000 worth of
(utility) electricity a year.  That saves me $2000 a year, or $20,000 over
ten years and more than paid for the added cost of the deep wells.

And I plan on living for another 25 or so...  The wells last "forever" and
any replacement indoor units are the same whether it is geothermal or not.
So I figure the $40,000 or so savings over the remaining time in that
house is much more than a "dollar a month"...

AND my house is solar, so in effect, my electricity is actually FREE after
the 10 year amortorization.
SO in the second 10 years, my savings are $3000 a year or $30,000 for the
next decade and so on.

>> Heatpump water heater heating at one third the electric energy
>> cost still beats a tankless hands down.

> That's true in the right circumstances. But you can't assume they
>  are always right. How long is it between when the water is heated,
> and when it is used? The longer it sits, the higher your standby losses.

> The demand heater doesn't lose any energy to these standby losses.

But I use hot water every day, morning and evening.  I adjust the capacity
(by adjusting the termprature) so that we only maintain the hot water we
need.

> The savings are hard to estimate because they depend so much on where
> you live, and your lifestyle. Is the heater in a hot garage, or a cold
basement?
> How much hot water do you use a day? Just one person, or a big family?

Yep, anyone installing a water heater should of course size it to their
needs in that installation.

> In my case (water heater in MN basement, a 2-person household that uses
> less than 10 gal/day) a heat pump water heater is uneconomical compared
to gas.

But if one has an anathema to continuing to burn a fossil fuel and
continuing dependence on the utility gas company for fuel every month
forever, then a heatpump water heater is ideal, since it can run on your
own home-produced solar power

> Problems that go away by themselves will be back with friends.

I like that.
Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (corrected)


Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

I stand by my numbers when corrected to a house that leaves most of their
lights on all evening and assuming averqaeg 75 Watt incandescent bulbs
originally..

The average house with compulsive behaviors who turn off every unused
light will be 10% of this as Matt noted...  But he equally exaggerated
errors.


Indeed, we all have this problem of over-generalization. We unconsiously 
apply our own special-case personal situation and knowledge as if it 
applies to everyone. When we say "everybody knows...", we really mean 
those in our own circle of friends and family. I catch myself doing it 
all the time!


"EVs can't work because there is no EV charging infrastructure".

"What do you mean? There are AC outlets in every parking lot here in 
Minnesota!"


Most arguments are really just blind men with different views of the 
same "elephant". :-)


--
Problems that go away by themselves will be back with friends.

Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ... LEDs

Again, it was the LED board only..  No other parts other than the 14 white
LED's in series.

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 1:43 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Lee Hart 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ... LEDs

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> The 60W equivalent I just took apart had a full 14 LEDs in series but
> still used a PWM controller.
>
> It took 80 volts DC to get the LED's to their proper brilliance.  So
> just a small resistor will do.

Right. And a rectifier. :-)

80/120v means a simple series resistor would make it 67% effient. Not bad.
40v at 60ma is 2.4 watts of waste heat.

> What was interesting was that 3 came on at around 15 volts, then more
> and more came on as the voltage was raised.  And they shifted back and
> forth at various levels until they were all on.

My guess is that there is more to the circuit than may appear. The
flashing could be a side effect of the PWM circuit's "brownout"
characteristics.

It's also possible that there are other parts inside the LED package
itself, too. Some are designed for applications like 5v indicators or 12v
car lights, and have their own internal regulator or limiter.

All these LED lights are made in China. They will use whatever part falls
to hand this week, regardless of its specs or source.

> PS, this divides out to be about 5.7 volts per LED.  Much higher than
> the 2.8v mentioned?

Was that actually measured at the LED? Or just 80v at the PWM input,
divided by 14 LEDs? It is likely that the PWM itself has a considerable
voltage drop, so this won't properly estimate the LED voltage.

It's also possible that each LED actually has more than one chip inside.

The 2.8v I used in my example was for the red LEDs inside a cheap car tail
light. That's actually rather high for red -- typical red LEDs are usually
1.6-1.8v. But they were driving these red LEDs at excessive currents;
about 100ma, when the part's data sheet says 60ma absolute maximum. (This
is unfortunately a common practice).

White LED voltages are generally higher; in the 3.x volt range.

--
Problems that go away by themselves will be back with friends.

Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

2018-07-27 Thread Willie via EV





On 07/27/2018 12:25 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Good catch. :-) I was assuming gas; not electric. I've never seen a big 
tankless electric water heater, for exactly the reason mentioned (too 
high a peak load). Tankless electric water heaters are usually little 
under-the-sink units, to provide hot water for a cup of tea or to wash 
your hands.


Wandering farther off topic  I have a seldom used guest house with a 
propane tank heater.  Several years ago, I put in a cheap chinese 
propane demand heater in parallel.  That cc heater worked well enough. 
Except that it threatened to burn the place down.  I now have, in stock, 
an electric demand heater which I intend to install when the fancy 
strike me.  It will replace the cc propane heater so that I can use the 
propane tank heater as back up in case the demand heater does not give 
acceptable temperature rise.  This is a situation where only about 2gpm 
of hot water is needed, either in the shower or the kitchen sink; not 
both at the same time.  I don't recall the power rating but I did decide 
it would pull about 20 amps and I intend to install it with about 5' of 
10 ga wire.  When I get around to it, I can report the results.


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Re: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ... LEDs


Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

The 60W equivalent I just took apart had a full 14 LEDs in series but
still used a PWM controller.

It took 80 volts DC to get the LED's to their proper brilliance.  So just
a small resistor will do.


Right. And a rectifier. :-)

80/120v means a simple series resistor would make it 67% effient. Not 
bad. 40v at 60ma is 2.4 watts of waste heat.



What was interesting was that 3 came on at around 15 volts, then more and
more came on as the voltage was raised.  And they shifted back and forth
at various levels until they were all on.


My guess is that there is more to the circuit than may appear. The 
flashing could be a side effect of the PWM circuit's "brownout" 
characteristics.


It's also possible that there are other parts inside the LED package 
itself, too. Some are designed for applications like 5v indicators or 
12v car lights, and have their own internal regulator or limiter.


All these LED lights are made in China. They will use whatever part 
falls to hand this week, regardless of its specs or source.



PS, this divides out to be about 5.7 volts per LED.  Much higher than the
2.8v mentioned?


Was that actually measured at the LED? Or just 80v at the PWM input, 
divided by 14 LEDs? It is likely that the PWM itself has a considerable 
voltage drop, so this won't properly estimate the LED voltage.


It's also possible that each LED actually has more than one chip inside.

The 2.8v I used in my example was for the red LEDs inside a cheap car 
tail light. That's actually rather high for red -- typical red LEDs are 
usually 1.6-1.8v. But they were driving these red LEDs at excessive 
currents; about 100ma, when the part's data sheet says 60ma absolute 
maximum. (This is unfortunately a common practice).


White LED voltages are generally higher; in the 3.x volt range.

--
Problems that go away by themselves will be back with friends.

Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

Lee Hart via EV wrote:

4. Tankless demand heaters (that only heat the water when it is actually
needed) are more efficient that anything you can do with a tank-type
waterheater, regular or hybrid.

Jay Summet 

Yes, when comparing gas tankless to gas tanked heaters.

NO for Electrically operated tankless heaters vs hybrid (heat pump) water
heaters with a tank.

Good catch. :-) I was assuming gas; not electric. I've never seen a big 
tankless electric water heater, for exactly the reason mentioned (too 
high a peak load). Tankless electric water heaters are usually little 
under-the-sink units, to provide hot water for a cup of tea or to wash 
your hands.

So I wasn't thinking of electric heat pump based water heaters. Though 
it's still a complicated question, with no easy one-size-fits-all answers.

There are circumstances where a heat pump is more efficient; and others 
where it is less efficient. As I said, I live in Minnesota, where 
heating is frequent and A/C is rare. Where does a heat pump get its heat 
in the winter? When it can't get it from outside air, it falls back to 
electrically powered resistors.

There are ground-based heat pumps that get their heat via a network of 
buried pipes. This works in the winter, if they are buried deep enough. 
But this can get very expensive. The decision is economic: How many 
thousands of dollars will you spend to save a dollar a month? A complex 
system can break down or wear out before you achieve paypack.

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>> Heatpump water heater heating at one third the electric energy
>> cost still beats a tankless hands down.

That's true in the right circumstances. But you can't assume they are 
always right. How long is it between when the water is heated, and when 
it is used? The longer it sits, the higher your standby losses. The 
demand heater doesn't lose any energy to these standby losses.

The savings are hard to estimate because they depend so much on where 
you live, and your lifestyle. Is the heater in a hot garage, or a cold 
basement? How much hot water do you use a day? Just one person, or a big 
family?

In my case (water heater in MN basement, a 2-person household that uses 
less than 10 gal/day) a heat pump water heater is uneconomical.

--
Problems that go away by themselves will be back with friends.

Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Waymo auton pickup order rides to-from Walmart Phoenix-AZ

2018-07-27 Thread Gail Lucas via EV

This sounds like a wonderful idea. Bruce, if I am the Gail you would 
like to have report on the Waymo EVs in Phoenix I am sorry I can't do 
that because I live in Las Vegas. I would love to have a self driving 
vehicle take me places, not just to Walmart. Next step should be to 
include a small robot to carry things into the house from the car.


Gail


On 7/26/2018 8:34 PM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

'no human driver and no engineer riding along'

% The newsitem below is about auton hevs not EVs. Perhaps when Waymo starts
using i-pace EVs in Phoenix-AZ, Gail can report on what she sees.

Here in Texas, Walmart stores are used big-time for pick-up orders.
Especially in this week's 111f heat. From the comfort of their running
air-conditioned ice (usually a huge 4-door TX truck), the public order their
groceries online. Then drive to the pickup parking area of the store,
waiting in air-conditioned comfort (again with the ice running). They text
what pickup space they are parked in, and their grocery order is carted out,
and put in their vehicle for them.

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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (corrected)

To make the math work, I should have said, "the average house with
teenagers leaving all the lights on for 5 hours a day".  [50 lights times
60W saved times 5 hours a day = 40 miles daily EV charging]

I stand by my numbers when corrected to a house that leaves most of their
lights on all evening and assuming averqaeg 75 Watt incandescent bulbs
originally..

The average house with compulsive behaviors who turn off every unused
light will be 10% of this as Matt noted...  But he equally exaggerated
errors.
.
On Jul 25, 2018, at 1:08 PM, Matt Awesome via EV 
wrote:

>> Remember this factoid.
>> Swapping out the average American home from Incandescent bulbs to
>> LEDs saves the same amount of power needed to charge an EV the
>> American 40 mile average per day forever.
>
> Plainly, no, it won't.
>
>> 50 bulbs saving an average 60 watts each for 5 hours a day is 15 kWh.
> Who the hell leaves 50 lightbulbs on in their house for 5 hours a day?
> I don't even think I have 50 lightbulbs in my house, let alone leave
> them all on 5 hours a day.
>
> LEDs aren't free, so, there's not 60watts savings from a 60w bulb.

I assumed an average 75W equivalent bulb (saving 60W) when going to a 9W
LED.
And around here, 60W equivalents are about $1 each (probably subsidized by
the utility).

> How many Kwh does an average US household consume in a day?:  ...
> That's 27kwh/day.
>
> What percentage of an electrical bill is comprised of lighting?: ...
> Source 3: - 9%.
> Source 4:  - 6%.
>
> The split [might depend] on whether heat is made through gas or
electricity.
> So, we could say 27kwh/day of which lighting is 6% or 15kwh/day of
> which lighting is 9% to at least be in the right ballpark (to arrive at
this:)
> - 27kwh*6% = 1.62kwh/day.
> - 15kwh*9% = 1.35kwh/day.
>
> You're claiming 10x that amount in *savings* from switching to LED, ...

Yes, I should have said in some homes who leave every light on all
evening...

>> Charging an EV at 1.5kw for 10 hours a day is 15 kWh.
>
> Since it's not the 1970s, the average household has at least 2
> vehicles, more when there's teenagers/college kids.

I said for one EV.  I didn't say for every car a household could own.

> Add in that LEDs aren't free, you're off by a factor of 25x.

I included their 9W when subtracted from an incandescent 75W to arrive at
60W savings per bulb.
And around here they only cost $1 each for a 60W LED.

> It would be more accurate to say that by switching from incandescents
> to LEDs, you could expect to save enough energy to cover 4% of your
> electric vehicle use. A pretty banal, unsensational, non-headlight
> grabbing rhetoric for sure, but at least an accurate one.

I stand by my numbers when corrected to a house that leaves most of their
lights on all evening.

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

AMEN!  Mine is a GE also, cost me $800 on sale.

BUT, I warn others to buy the special add on warranty if available.

Normally, I shun all these add-on warranties as just coinsumer rip-offs.
But after reading plenty of on-line reviews, there were a very high number
of installation errors reported (mostly due to the plumber being sloppy).
But in the case of such an expensive water heater, get the added full
coverage (initially) warranty.  Once it has proven beyond all the possible
installation errors, they seem to be excellent in the long run.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 11:05 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: ROBERT 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

I usually do not comment on energy use posting because this is an ev blog.
However, if you want to save energy in a house, buy a hybrid hot water
heater.  They cost $1800 - $2000; but they are worth the money.  They have
a 20 yr warranty on the tank.  The average HW heater has a 8 - 10 yr
warranty and little insulation (fast heat loss). I purchase a used one
made by GE off of craigslist for $200. I installed an energy monitor with
a totalize for KW-Hrs.  My pay back is less than one year because I
replaced a builder grade propane HW heater.  It beats LED lighting any
day. I also use LED lights.




From: EV  on behalf of Matt Awesome via EV

Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 11:08 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Matt Awesome
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

> Remember this factoid.

I'm all for saving energy and obviously I'm here so I'm passionate about
EV use, but, it's also important to me to not treat this like some kind of
religion.

> Swapping out the average American home from Incandescent bulbs to LEDs
> saves the same amount of power needed to charge an EV the American 40
> mile average per day forever.

Plainly, no, it won't.

> 50 bulbs saving an average 60 watts each for 5 hours a day is 15 kWh.

Who the hell leaves 50 lightbulbs on in their house for 5 hours a day?

I don't even think I have 50 lightbulbs in my house, let alone leave them
all on 5 hours a day.

Anyone with that many fixtures is putting 40w bulbs into them. And LEDs
aren't free, so, there's not 60watts savings from a 60w bulb.

Let's try to get some more realistic numbers.

How many Kwh does an average US household consume in a day?:
Source 1: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97=3 - Independent
US Energy & Information Statistics says ~10,000kwh/year.
That's 27kwh/day.
Source 2:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Energy/Electricity/Consumpt
ion-by-households-per-capita#2005
- Around half that.

What percentage of an electrical bill is comprised of lighting?:
Source 3: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=96=3 - 9%.
Source 4:
https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-energy-consumption-is-from-lighti
ng-in-a-typical-American-house
- 6%.

The split seems to vary depending on whether heat is made through gas or
electricity. Meaning the lower percentage use numbers for lighting are
from houses that use 2x as much electricity (for heat). If they're not
making heat electrically, their lighting percentage is higher (but the
same net total).

So, we could say 27kwh/day of which lighting is 6% or 15kwh/day of which
lighting is 9% to at least be in the right ballpark (this argument is
about general scale, not really precision).

What is the average lighting demand for a US household?:
- 27kwh*6% = 1.62kwh/day.
- 15kwh*9% = 1.35kwh/day.

Somewhere around 1500 watt-hours a day.

You're claiming 10x that amount in *savings* from switching to LED, let
alone total lighting use.

> Charging an EV at 1.5kw for 10 hours a day is 15 kWh.

Since it's not the 1970s, the average household has at least 2 vehicles,
more when there's teenagers/college kids.

So... your "factoid" for a household is now off by a factor of 20x.

Add in that LEDs aren't free, you're off by a factor of 25x.

It would be more accurate to say that by switching from incandescents to
LEDs, you could expect to save enough energy to cover 4% of your electric
vehicle use. A pretty banal, unsensational, non-headlight grabbing
rhetoric for sure, but at least an accurate one.

You can nitpick those numbers a bit, they might be off by, oh, perhaps
double, but they're not off by an order of magnitude.
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Re: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ... LEDs

> If you're running the LEDs on 120vac, the voltage drop needed is much
larger.

The 60W equivalent I just took apart had a full 14 LEDs in series but
still used a PWM controller.

It took 80 volts DC to get the LED's to their proper brilliance.  So just
a small resistor will do.

This is just the metal disk with the 14 LEDs all in series, no other
electronics.

What was interesting was that 3 came on at around 15 volts, then more and
more came on as the voltage was raised.  And they shifted back and forth
at various levels until they were all on.  Since the bulb was rated at 9
Watts, and assuming 80% PWM efficiency, then I assumed the LED's were
rated at 60 mA. And that took 80 volts.

All the flashing back and forth as each began to illuminate surprised me.
It was almost as if there was a threshold effect.  As a new LED decided to
illuminate, then the series string suffered due to the greater current and
so all the other LED's adjusted.  Some ablve and some below threshold.
All being in series, it looks like there is a significant variability in
their characteristics.  But once I hit 80 volts the current above that was
linear.  But at 80 is also where it got to 60 mA and I did not go much
higher.

I was using a regulated variable DC supply with no series resistor (Supply
was current limited at 120 mA).

PS, this divides out to be about 5.7 volts per LED.  Much higher than the
2.8 mentioned?

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)