Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

A number of things to correct here:

- Availability dates: 

Well, a history lesson for you….technically, yes, Honda did start producing an 
FCX Clarity in 2008 in Japan, and first available there. However, this was 
essentially a run of demo vehicles with a very limited number of people that 
were given them to try. Some key influencers got them, like several well-known 
actresses. I tried, but was unable to get one. 

The first real availability of a fuel cell car in any number was one offered by 
Hyundai. I was at the event giving the first set of keys to a family in Orange 
County. I think it was in August of 2014. I have pictures, so can dig up the 
exact date if anyone is really interested. 

Several months later, Toyota released its Mirai, in Japan only. (This is all 
off the top of my head, so I may be off a little.) In the fall of 2015, the 
Mirai was made available in California. I bought one of those in October - it 
was one of the first off the line. I also obtained an early Clarity Fuel cell, 
the first really by Honda with widespread availability, in March, 2017. 

So no, fuel cells weren’t available to the general public until 2014. 

There was long wait lists, so they didn’t really start hitting the road for 
awhile.

On the BEV side, you’re forgetting the RAV4-EV in 1997, I think, and the EV1 
about that time, too, and Honda also had one. 

Of the EVs you mentioned, really only the Tesla was comparable. I tried 
unsuccessfully to get a FIT EV, and that was a great car, but not car able to 
the FCEVs. And yes, the EVs outsold the FCEVs in 2012, in part because you 
could not buy a FCEV! 

In fact, it you look at sales numbers in California, they were outsold every 
year. However, it you compare the adoption curve for the EV with the FCEV, the 
curve is the same for the two, just later by seven years. I consider that 
remarkable given the limits in infrastructure and other challenges.

Fueling stations - I hadn’t noticed that you got the number of stations wrong, 
only that you said they were closing. But your comment about only five opening 
since 2017 is way off. I think that at least five have already opened just this 
year.

Lastly, you equate cost of production with cost to the consumer. Yes, that’s 
part of it, but it’s much more complicated than that. That’s for both BEV and 
FCEV. For years, cost to Tesla owners for using super chargers was zero. And 
right now it is zero for FCEV owners. However, whatever the price has been and 
the cost to produce, both prices and costs are dropping.
 The important price comparison IMHO is with the price of gasoline and diesel.


- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 23, 2021, at 8:43 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  wrote:
> 
> FCEV have been available in California since 2008, that's nearly as as 
> modern EVs.
> 
> The Tesla S came out in 2012, at that time there were at least 8 other EVs 
> for sale in the USA.
> Ford Focus EV($39,995), Ford Transit Connect($58,000), Misubishi 
> i-Miev($27,900), Honda Fit EV($36,665), Nissan Leaf ($35,200), Wheego LiFe 
> ($32,995), Toyota RAV4 EV ($49,800), and the Coda sedan ($37,250)
> Granted most were only available in California and in limited qunatities, 
> although most (if not all) out sold FCEVs in California in 2012.
> 
> My mistake about the number of H2 fueling stations, I hadn't looked this up 
> since 2017, apparently they built 5 new stations since then.
> Of course in that same time frame they installed ~30,000 public charging 
> stations.
> They might open 1-2 new H2 stations in the next year or so.  They have opened 
> ~17,000 public EV charging stations in the last year (During COVID!!).
> The rate they are opening public chargin stations is accelerating.  At the 
> rate they are currently building H2 stations, it will take them 50 years to 
> build as many H2 stations as the number of public EV charging stations that 
> will open tomorrow.
> Clearly H2 infrastructure is catching up [rolls eyes]
> 
> I'll grant you that consumers, in general, don't care about effeciency, but 
> they do care about costs. 
> If H2 is made using electricity and it requires 4x as much electricity per 
> mile, then the cost to the consumer will be at least 4 times as much, plus 
> markup.
> Even when using public charging stations, that typically csot 2x-3x as much 
> as charging at home, H2 currently cost 2-3x as much per mile, which makes it 
> 5-10x as much as charging at home.
> Of course, myself and many others on this list, have solar panels at home 
> which makes fuel cost per mile effective zero (my panels paid for themselves 
> years ago)
> 
> When comparing weight, I ment vehicles with similar capabilities, not similar 
> names.  
> The closest EV (capability wise) to the Honda Clarity is the Tesla Model 3 
> long range, they have similar passenger volume, simlar cargo volume, similar 
> range and similar weight.  
> The Tesla weighs 120 lbs more (~3% heavier), 7 miles less EPA range 

Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

Other than my mistake about the total number of H2 fueling stations, what 
specifically was incorrect?

My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

August 23, 2021 5:57 PM, "Mark Abramowitz via EV"  wrote:

> Sums it up nicely with incorrect information?
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 23, 2021, at 5:02 PM, Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Enough with the hydrogen, Peter sums it up nicely.
>> 
>>> On 8/23/2021 7:27 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote:
>>> I thought it was obvious I was comparing BEV vs FCEV. Apparently not.
>> 
>> Higher cost to build? Well, yeah. But don’t BEVs cost more to build,
>>> An FCEV is an EV with a fuel cell, so most of the extra BEV costs are still 
>>> there (still needs an
>>> electric motor/controller/batteries/etc)
>>> You say a little by using a smaller battery pack but then spend a LOT more 
>>> of the fuel cell,
>>> tank(s), etc.
>> 
>> Higher cost to operate. For the consumer? Really?
>>> Compared to an BEV? Yes, absolutely, much higher. It gets even worse if you 
>>> use green H2 since it
>>> requires about 3-4x as much electricity per mile to make the H2 vs charging 
>>> an EV.
>> 
>> Lower efficiency. Lower efficiency of what, and to whom?
>>> Miles per kWh. To EVERYONE.
>>> Modern LiIon batteries are about 90% efficient at storing energy, chargers 
>>> are also around 90%,
>>> equaling roughly 80% efficient at stroing electricity (and that can be 
>>> improved)
>>> Modern electrolyzers are around 80-85% efficient and fuel cells are around 
>>> 60%, which means a
>>> combined efficiency of ~50%, and that does NOT count any energy used to 
>>> compress the H2, which
>>> front what I've read brings the total storage efficiency down to around 
>>> 25-30%...at best. You'll
>>> also have additional losses charging/discharging the batteries on the FCEV.
>> 
>> No existing infrastructure. Again, this all depends. If you have access to a 
>> station and 5 minutes
>> to fill every 300 miles or so, that’s plenty .
>>> Currently there are less than 40 public H2 stations around LA. There are 
>>> zero H2 stations anywhere
>>> else in the USA.
>>> Currently, in the USA, there are over 1,000 public charging stations for 
>>> every public H2 station.
>>> This number is increasing because while they are constantly installing new 
>>> EV charging stations,
>>> they are shutting down H2 stations.
>>> For all intents and purposes, there is NO H2 fueling infrastructure in the 
>>> USA, while Public EV
>>> charging stations are becoming common acrost most of the USA. Extremely 
>>> common on the coasts.
>>> 
>>> As stated above, if you are cracking water for you FCEV, then it takes 3-4x 
>>> as much electricity per
>>> mile to charge at home (compared to a BEV)
>>> 
>>> The weight of modern FCEV is roughly the same as the weight of comparable 
>>> BEVs, so that's not an
>>> advantage to either.
>>> 
>>> They have EVs available today that can recharge almost as fast as refueling 
>>> a FCEV, and you can
>>> hook up the charge cord yourself, from what I've read every H2 fueling 
>>> station requires a trained
>>> individual to connect the hose. Waiting for him/her to show up could 
>>> elliminate the remaining time
>>> advantage.
>>> 
>>> Consumers won't purchase FCEV unless they perceive and advantage TO THEM.
>>> Let me put it simply, what advantages do YOU see to ANYONE other than the 
>>> folks that make H2?
>>> How do you see these advantages making FCEV economically viable?
>>> Viable enough to justify creating a nation wide H2 fueling infracstructure 
>>> from scratch?
>>> ___
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Sums it up nicely with incorrect information?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 23, 2021, at 5:02 PM, Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:
> 
> Enough with the hydrogen, Peter sums it up nicely.
> 
>> On 8/23/2021 7:27 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote:
>> I thought it was obvious I was comparing BEV vs FCEV.  Apparently not.
>> 
>>> Higher cost to build? Well, yeah. But don’t BEVs cost more to build,
>> An FCEV is an EV with a fuel cell, so most of the extra BEV costs are still 
>> there (still needs an electric motor/controller/batteries/etc)
>> You say a little by using a smaller battery pack but then spend a LOT more 
>> of the fuel cell, tank(s), etc.
>> 
>>> Higher cost to operate. For the consumer? Really?
>> Compared to an BEV?  Yes, absolutely, much higher.  It gets even worse if 
>> you use green H2 since it requires about 3-4x as much electricity per mile 
>> to make the H2 vs charging an EV.
>> 
>>> Lower efficiency. Lower efficiency of what, and to whom?
>> Miles per kWh.  To EVERYONE.
>> Modern LiIon batteries are about 90% efficient at storing energy, chargers 
>> are also around 90%, equaling roughly 80% efficient at stroing electricity 
>> (and that can be improved)
>> Modern electrolyzers are around 80-85% efficient and fuel cells are around 
>> 60%, which means a combined efficiency of ~50%, and that does NOT count any 
>> energy used to compress the H2, which front what I've read brings the total 
>> storage efficiency down to around 25-30%...at best.  You'll also have 
>> additional losses charging/discharging the batteries on the FCEV.
>> 
>>> No existing infrastructure. Again, this all depends. If you have access to 
>>> a station and 5 minutes
>>> to fill every 300 miles or so, that’s plenty .
>> Currently there are less than 40 public H2 stations around LA.  There are 
>> zero H2 stations anywhere else in the USA.
>> Currently, in the USA, there are over 1,000 public charging stations for 
>> every public H2 station.  This number is increasing because while they are 
>> constantly installing new EV charging stations, they are shutting down H2 
>> stations.
>> For all intents and purposes, there is NO H2 fueling infrastructure in the 
>> USA, while Public EV charging stations are becoming common acrost most of 
>> the USA.  Extremely common on the coasts.
>> 
>> As stated above, if you are cracking water for you FCEV, then it takes 3-4x 
>> as much electricity per mile to charge at home (compared to a BEV)
>> 
>> The weight of modern FCEV is roughly the same as the weight of comparable 
>> BEVs, so that's not an advantage to either.
>> 
>> They have EVs available today that can recharge almost as fast as refueling 
>> a FCEV, and you can hook up the charge cord yourself, from what I've read 
>> every H2 fueling station requires a trained individual to connect the hose.  
>> Waiting for him/her to show up could elliminate the remaining time advantage.
>> 
>> Consumers won't purchase FCEV unless they perceive and advantage TO THEM.
>> Let me put it simply, what advantages do YOU see to ANYONE other than the 
>> folks that make H2?
>> How do you see these advantages making FCEV economically viable?
>> Viable enough to justify creating a nation wide H2 fueling infracstructure 
>> from scratch?
>> ___
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Yep. My money is on the bully factor.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 23, 2021, at 4:55 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  wrote:
> 
> Yes, it is enteresting that nobody (including you) has posted a single 
> advantage that FCEVs currently have over BEVs.
> 
> Rather telling wouldn't you say?
> 
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
> 
> August 19, 2021 11:22 AM, "Mark Abramowitz via EV"  wrote:
> 
>> I guess no one sees *any* advantages? I wonder why? Is everyone using the 
>> same 20 year old
>> information that some are using? Believing some of the myths? Are people 
>> afraid that if they list
>> something they will be attacked or bullied by a few who do that here?
>> 
>> It’s very odd that absolutely no one answered your question about advantages.
>> 
>> - Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>> 
 On Aug 17, 2021, at 12:49 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  
 wrote:
>>> 
>>> What, exactly, do people see as the advantage(s) of a FCEV over a BEV?
>>> 
>>> There are tons of disadvantages, higher cost to build, higher cost to 
>>> operate, lower efficiency, no
>>> existing infrastructure, etc.; so what is the big advantage that would make 
>>> them worth while?
>>> ___
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>> 
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

You may disagree, but they did give some reasons why someone might choose one 
over another.

To a question “Is an FCEV or a BEV the better choice for a consumer?” The 
answer is “it depends.”

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 23, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  wrote:
> 
> Drivel mostly.  
> 
> She compares energy density, but completely ignores the weight of H2 tanks, 
> fuel cells, batteries, etc. on the FCEV. Once you add those in the 
> differences are negligible.
> 
> She lists the speed advantage of refueling, but glosses over the fact that if 
> you not close to one of the few stations, you'll either have to spend a lot 
> of time driving out of your way, or (for someone like me) the time to refuel 
> with H2 is currently infinite.
> Even if I spent the thousands for an H2 hydrolzer and compression system, and 
> additional thousands to double the size of my PV array to power it, I could 
> only drive it locally because the nearest H2 fueling station is over 600 
> miles from my house.
> 
> 
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
> 
> August 22, 2021 2:27 PM, "Mark Abramowitz via EV"  wrote:
> 
>> You may find this interesting, in answer to your question.
>> 
>> https://youtu.be/dWAO3vUn7nw
>> 
>> - Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>> 
 On Aug 17, 2021, at 12:49 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  
 wrote:
>>> 
>>> What, exactly, do people see as the advantage(s) of a FCEV over a BEV?
>>> 
>>> There are tons of disadvantages, higher cost to build, higher cost to 
>>> operate, lower efficiency, no
>>> existing infrastructure, etc.; so what is the big advantage that would make 
>>> them worth while?
>>> ___
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>> 
>> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

A few responses:

FCEVs are certainly earlier stage than EVs. Costs are coming down quickly. But 
to the consumer, FCEVs aren’t necessary more expensive. For the cost of a Tesla 
S, the only one out when I bought my first FCEV, I could buy at least two 
FCEVs, taking into account factory and other incentives.

Currently, are they more expensive?  I don’t know. Taking into account 
infrastructure, particularly at scale, FCEVs are cheaper. To a consumer, only 
if they need to put in charging or fueling infrastructure.

Cost to operate - you give no costs, only efficiency numbers. fCEV owners pay 
no nothing for fuel for the first three years. If they lease, nothing. We own 
one, and lease one. If you own, after the first three years, it’s VERY 
expensive, though costs are coming down. Maintenance is part of cost to own. 
Some manufacturers include it, some don’t. 

I don’t know operating costs of an EV, so can’t compare. One company charges 
31¢/kWh IIRC.

Efficiency - if your question is “to the consumer” it’s not as simple as miles 
per kWh. Do consumers even know that? What about time efficiency? Isn’t my time 
spent charging worth something? For some, sure they charge at home and it works 
for them. For others that’s not real world. BTW, efficiencies on both fuel cell 
and electrolyzers are increasing quickly. And then, you need to ask “under what 
conditions?”. What’s the efficiency at 0 degrees F?  110 degrees F?

Infrastructure- Yes, currently infrastructure for H2 needs to be better. For a 
consumer, if there’s convenient fueling for you, there’s no problem. If not, 
it’s not for you. Same as the problem was for BEVs as few years ago.

But stations are *not* being closed.  If fact, the rollout of stations is 
accelerating, in California and internationally. 

Weight - your claim that they are the same was interesting, so I looked up the 
weight of the Honda Clarity Fuel cell and the Honda Clarity BEV. They *are* the 
same weight, but the BEV has an EPA range of 48 miles while the FCEV has a 
range of 366 or so. Of course that changes a LOT for the BEV (and not in a good 
way) when you have extremes of temperature.


- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 23, 2021, at 4:27 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  wrote:
> 
> I thought it was obvious I was comparing BEV vs FCEV.  Apparently not.
> 
>> Higher cost to build? Well, yeah. But don’t BEVs cost more to build, 
> An FCEV is an EV with a fuel cell, so most of the extra BEV costs are still 
> there (still needs an electric motor/controller/batteries/etc)
> You say a little by using a smaller battery pack but then spend a LOT more of 
> the fuel cell, tank(s), etc.
> 
>> Higher cost to operate. For the consumer? Really? 
> Compared to an BEV?  Yes, absolutely, much higher.  It gets even worse if you 
> use green H2 since it requires about 3-4x as much electricity per mile to 
> make the H2 vs charging an EV.
> 
>> Lower efficiency. Lower efficiency of what, and to whom? 
> Miles per kWh.  To EVERYONE.
> Modern LiIon batteries are about 90% efficient at storing energy, chargers 
> are also around 90%, equaling roughly 80% efficient at stroing electricity 
> (and that can be improved)
> Modern electrolyzers are around 80-85% efficient and fuel cells are around 
> 60%, which means a combined efficiency of ~50%, and that does NOT count any 
> energy used to compress the H2, which front what I've read brings the total 
> storage efficiency down to around 25-30%...at best.  You'll also have 
> additional losses charging/discharging the batteries on the FCEV.
> 
>> 
>> No existing infrastructure. Again, this all depends. If you have access to a 
>> station and 5 minutes
>> to fill every 300 miles or so, that’s plenty .
> Currently there are less than 40 public H2 stations around LA.  There are 
> zero H2 stations anywhere else in the USA.  
> Currently, in the USA, there are over 1,000 public charging stations for 
> every public H2 station.  This number is increasing because while they are 
> constantly installing new EV charging stations, they are shutting down H2 
> stations.
> For all intents and purposes, there is NO H2 fueling infrastructure in the 
> USA, while Public EV charging stations are becoming common acrost most of the 
> USA.  Extremely common on the coasts.
> 
> As stated above, if you are cracking water for you FCEV, then it takes 3-4x 
> as much electricity per mile to charge at home (compared to a BEV)
> 
> The weight of modern FCEV is roughly the same as the weight of comparable 
> BEVs, so that's not an advantage to either.  
> 
> They have EVs available today that can recharge almost as fast as refueling a 
> FCEV, and you can hook up the charge cord yourself, from what I've read every 
> H2 fueling station requires a trained individual to connect the hose.  
> Waiting for him/her to show up could elliminate the remaining time advantage.
> 
> Consumers won't purchase FCEV unless they perceive and advantage TO THEM.  
> Let 

Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn’t green, after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Perhaps not for you, but I’m on my second, my wife has one, and so does my son.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 23, 2021, at 3:03 PM, nathan christiansn via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> You may find this interesting, in answer to your question.
> 
> https://youtu.be/dWAO3vUn7nw
> 
> - Mark
> 
> I hope everyone heard when she said “thanks to Toyota for sponsoring this
> entire series”
> 
> Toyota has historically been anti BEV and pro FCEV. Like David said, she
> brought up the old lie that if everyone switches to BEVs, the electric grid
> would go down. As BEVs slowly gain market share, the grid will adapt.
> 
> Like I said before, Hydrogen never had and never will have a future in the
> cars that you and I drive.
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Alan Arrison via EV]

Enough with the hydrogen, Peter sums it up nicely.

On 8/23/2021 7:27 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote:

I thought it was obvious I was comparing BEV vs FCEV.  Apparently not.


Higher cost to build? Well, yeah. But don’t BEVs cost more to build,

An FCEV is an EV with a fuel cell, so most of the extra BEV costs are still 
there (still needs an electric motor/controller/batteries/etc)
You say a little by using a smaller battery pack but then spend a LOT more of 
the fuel cell, tank(s), etc.


Higher cost to operate. For the consumer? Really?

Compared to an BEV?  Yes, absolutely, much higher.  It gets even worse if you 
use green H2 since it requires about 3-4x as much electricity per mile to make 
the H2 vs charging an EV.


Lower efficiency. Lower efficiency of what, and to whom?

Miles per kWh.  To EVERYONE.
Modern LiIon batteries are about 90% efficient at storing energy, chargers are 
also around 90%, equaling roughly 80% efficient at stroing electricity (and 
that can be improved)
Modern electrolyzers are around 80-85% efficient and fuel cells are around 60%, 
which means a combined efficiency of ~50%, and that does NOT count any energy 
used to compress the H2, which front what I've read brings the total storage 
efficiency down to around 25-30%...at best.  You'll also have additional losses 
charging/discharging the batteries on the FCEV.


No existing infrastructure. Again, this all depends. If you have access to a 
station and 5 minutes
to fill every 300 miles or so, that’s plenty .

Currently there are less than 40 public H2 stations around LA.  There are zero 
H2 stations anywhere else in the USA.
Currently, in the USA, there are over 1,000 public charging stations for every 
public H2 station.  This number is increasing because while they are constantly 
installing new EV charging stations, they are shutting down H2 stations.
For all intents and purposes, there is NO H2 fueling infrastructure in the USA, 
while Public EV charging stations are becoming common acrost most of the USA.  
Extremely common on the coasts.

As stated above, if you are cracking water for you FCEV, then it takes 3-4x as 
much electricity per mile to charge at home (compared to a BEV)

The weight of modern FCEV is roughly the same as the weight of comparable BEVs, 
so that's not an advantage to either.

They have EVs available today that can recharge almost as fast as refueling a 
FCEV, and you can hook up the charge cord yourself, from what I've read every 
H2 fueling station requires a trained individual to connect the hose.  Waiting 
for him/her to show up could elliminate the remaining time advantage.

Consumers won't purchase FCEV unless they perceive and advantage TO THEM.
Let me put it simply, what advantages do YOU see to ANYONE other than the folks 
that make H2?
How do you see these advantages making FCEV economically viable?
Viable enough to justify creating a nation wide H2 fueling infracstructure from 
scratch?
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

Yes, it is enteresting that nobody (including you) has posted a single 
advantage that FCEVs currently have over BEVs.

Rather telling wouldn't you say?

My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

August 19, 2021 11:22 AM, "Mark Abramowitz via EV"  wrote:

> I guess no one sees *any* advantages? I wonder why? Is everyone using the 
> same 20 year old
> information that some are using? Believing some of the myths? Are people 
> afraid that if they list
> something they will be attacked or bullied by a few who do that here?
> 
> It’s very odd that absolutely no one answered your question about advantages.
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 17, 2021, at 12:49 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> What, exactly, do people see as the advantage(s) of a FCEV over a BEV?
>> 
>> There are tons of disadvantages, higher cost to build, higher cost to 
>> operate, lower efficiency, no
>> existing infrastructure, etc.; so what is the big advantage that would make 
>> them worth while?
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

Drivel mostly.  

She compares energy density, but completely ignores the weight of H2 tanks, 
fuel cells, batteries, etc. on the FCEV. Once you add those in the differences 
are negligible.

She lists the speed advantage of refueling, but glosses over the fact that if 
you not close to one of the few stations, you'll either have to spend a lot of 
time driving out of your way, or (for someone like me) the time to refuel with 
H2 is currently infinite.
Even if I spent the thousands for an H2 hydrolzer and compression system, and 
additional thousands to double the size of my PV array to power it, I could 
only drive it locally because the nearest H2 fueling station is over 600 miles 
from my house.


My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

August 22, 2021 2:27 PM, "Mark Abramowitz via EV"  wrote:

> You may find this interesting, in answer to your question.
> 
> https://youtu.be/dWAO3vUn7nw
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 17, 2021, at 12:49 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> What, exactly, do people see as the advantage(s) of a FCEV over a BEV?
>> 
>> There are tons of disadvantages, higher cost to build, higher cost to 
>> operate, lower efficiency, no
>> existing infrastructure, etc.; so what is the big advantage that would make 
>> them worth while?
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

I thought it was obvious I was comparing BEV vs FCEV.  Apparently not.

> Higher cost to build? Well, yeah. But don’t BEVs cost more to build, 
An FCEV is an EV with a fuel cell, so most of the extra BEV costs are still 
there (still needs an electric motor/controller/batteries/etc)
You say a little by using a smaller battery pack but then spend a LOT more of 
the fuel cell, tank(s), etc.

> Higher cost to operate. For the consumer? Really? 
Compared to an BEV?  Yes, absolutely, much higher.  It gets even worse if you 
use green H2 since it requires about 3-4x as much electricity per mile to make 
the H2 vs charging an EV.

> Lower efficiency. Lower efficiency of what, and to whom? 
Miles per kWh.  To EVERYONE.
Modern LiIon batteries are about 90% efficient at storing energy, chargers are 
also around 90%, equaling roughly 80% efficient at stroing electricity (and 
that can be improved)
Modern electrolyzers are around 80-85% efficient and fuel cells are around 60%, 
which means a combined efficiency of ~50%, and that does NOT count any energy 
used to compress the H2, which front what I've read brings the total storage 
efficiency down to around 25-30%...at best.  You'll also have additional losses 
charging/discharging the batteries on the FCEV.

> 
> No existing infrastructure. Again, this all depends. If you have access to a 
> station and 5 minutes
> to fill every 300 miles or so, that’s plenty .
Currently there are less than 40 public H2 stations around LA.  There are zero 
H2 stations anywhere else in the USA.  
Currently, in the USA, there are over 1,000 public charging stations for every 
public H2 station.  This number is increasing because while they are constantly 
installing new EV charging stations, they are shutting down H2 stations.
For all intents and purposes, there is NO H2 fueling infrastructure in the USA, 
while Public EV charging stations are becoming common acrost most of the USA.  
Extremely common on the coasts.

As stated above, if you are cracking water for you FCEV, then it takes 3-4x as 
much electricity per mile to charge at home (compared to a BEV)

The weight of modern FCEV is roughly the same as the weight of comparable BEVs, 
so that's not an advantage to either.  

They have EVs available today that can recharge almost as fast as refueling a 
FCEV, and you can hook up the charge cord yourself, from what I've read every 
H2 fueling station requires a trained individual to connect the hose.  Waiting 
for him/her to show up could elliminate the remaining time advantage.

Consumers won't purchase FCEV unless they perceive and advantage TO THEM.  
Let me put it simply, what advantages do YOU see to ANYONE other than the folks 
that make H2?  
How do you see these advantages making FCEV economically viable?  
Viable enough to justify creating a nation wide H2 fueling infracstructure from 
scratch?
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all - EV charging in Alaska

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

Yeah, and that was the folks with "high efficiency" EVs (or ones carrying over 
1/2 ton),  my pickup only got ~35-40 miles on 1/2 ton of lead.  

My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

> "EVDL Administrator via EV"  wrote:
> 
>> He was down to 50 miles remaining and beginning to worry.
> 
> Remember when EVs ran on a half ton of lead, and "50 miles remaining" meant
> you'd just finished charging?
>
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn’t green, after all

[nathan christiansn via EV]

> You may find this interesting, in answer to your question.

https://youtu.be/dWAO3vUn7nw

- Mark

I hope everyone heard when she said “thanks to Toyota for sponsoring this
entire series”

Toyota has historically been anti BEV and pro FCEV. Like David said, she
brought up the old lie that if everyone switches to BEVs, the electric grid
would go down. As BEVs slowly gain market share, the grid will adapt.

Like I said before, Hydrogen never had and never will have a future in the
cars that you and I drive.
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 23 Aug 2021 at 8:46, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

> I wouldnTMt expect that Toyota had that kind of editorial influence, nor
> would exercise it if they could.

They don't need to.

The once-solid firewalls between the management and fiscal people and the 
newsrooms are crumbling even in traditional broadcast media.  

Those firewalls never existed in the world of online "influencers."  For 
them, anything goes, and everything is for sale.

Toyota pays. They even let the presenter drive the car.  *Of course* they 
get top billing and good words for their policies and products.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 I think [Rio de Janeiro mayor Marcelo] Crivella will be 
 remembered as a mayor to be forgotten.

 -- Alvaro Costa e Silva
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Willie,

I actually didn’t see the “EVDL Administrator” questions. I don’t see his stuff 
- they go automatically in the bit bucket.

As far as the main question you and Peter posted, I’ve posted that I prefer to 
sit back and see what others come up with.

I’m pretty sure I’ve already posted my thought on it in the past. I may do so 
again, but I’ve waiting to see what others could come up with.


- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 23, 2021, at 5:52 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 8/23/21 6:09 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>> Mark, I'd still like to read YOUR responses to the questions posted here,
>> especially to my own questions.
> Ditto.  Though I have posted no specific questions.  But the primary question 
> seems to remain unanswered: "Why might a car buyer select a FCEV over a BEV?"
>>  
>> That said, thanks for posting that video clip.
>> 
>> 
>> But that's just technical griping.  To get to the info, the presenter made a
>> point that I hadn't thought much about - increasing range on an FCEV is less
>> likely to add significant weight than it would on a BEV.
>> 
>> She seems to think that that matters more for trucks than cars.  I'd say
>> that the opposite is true.  When you consider battery weight as a percentage
>> of a  truck's payload,  more might not be that big a deal.
> Thanks for the interpretation of the video.  I am generally not willing to 
> expend expensive bandwidth to view videos.
>> 
>> She points out that FCEVs fuel faster.  She says 5 minutes for FCEVs;
>> elsewhere I've read 8 minutes.  However, as superchargers hit 300kW, the
>> difference is narrowing.
> 
> An anecdote:  I recently charged at one of the new 250kw SuperChargers and 
> was impressed.  Though I did not measure total charge time, I did notice that 
> it started at about 240kw and by the time it had tapered to 200kw, I had 
> added more than 100 miles of range.  I needed more than that 100 miles so 
> spent a total of approximately 20 minutes charging.  In our area, 150kw 
> chargers are far more common where 30 minute charge times are typical. 150kw 
> chargers typically peak at 140-145kw and quickly taper.  I do not see real 
> significance in the difference.  When on the road, I spend almost no time 
> waiting for a charge.  Getting coffee and taking head breaks uses most of the 
> charge time.  We've mentioned it MANY times but most, by far, charging takes 
> NO time since it is done at night at homes.
> 
> Tesla is behind in charging times since all Tesla batteries are ~400 volts 
> and can not take advantage of 800 volt chargers. Though I have never actually 
> seen a 800 volt charger.  Quick charging is mostly a concern of those who do 
> no yet have Teslas.
> 
> In pondering what attraction a FCEV might have over a BEV, I hit upon an 
> extremely minor one.  BEVs do not shed mass as they are driven, while FCEVs 
> do.  So, FCEVs should see a very slight rise in efficiency as they expend 
> their fuel while BEVs do not.  I am NOT claiming that it should be a 
> consideration when making buying decisions.  But, since we are grasping for 
> straws, it is SOMETHING.
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

ight rise in efficiency as they
>> expend their fuel while BEVs do not.  I am NOT claiming that it should
>> be a consideration when making buying decisions.  But, since we are
>> grasping for straws, it is SOMETHING.
>> 
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Hydrogen lobbyist quits, slams oil companies’ “false claims” about blue
hydrogen Recent studies have questioned blue hydrogen’s low-carbon bona
fides.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/08/ex-lobbyist-slams-blue-hydrogen-says-it-would-lock-in-fossil-fuel-dependence/

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 8:19 AM Bobby Keeland via EV 
wrote:

> I found it very interesting when one person who was being interviewed
> talked about an advance of FCEVs over BEVs was when refueling at night when
> the sun is not and “when the wind is not blowing.” I’ve lived in 10
> different states and visited all 50 states. It is clear that wind blows
> both during the night and day. I guess that when an investigation/report is
> sponsored by Toyota the info presented favors Toyota as much as possible.
> The lady also failed to truly list the pollution caused by the predominate
> source of hydrogen for the fuel cell. From what I have read many times over
> the past few years the majority of hydrogen for fuel cells comes from
> natural gas. That natural gas is probably extracted from the earth via
> fracking which is most certainly not earth or people friendly.
>
> Bobby Keeland
>
> On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 8:08 AM Willie via EV  wrote:
>
> >
> > On 8/23/21 6:09 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> > > Mark, I'd still like to read YOUR responses to the questions posted
> here,
> > > especially to my own questions.
> > Ditto.  Though I have posted no specific questions.  But the primary
> > question seems to remain unanswered: "Why might a car buyer select a
> > FCEV over a BEV?"
> > >
> > >
> > > That said, thanks for posting that video clip.
> > >
> > >
> > > But that's just technical griping.  To get to the info, the presenter
> > made a
> > > point that I hadn't thought much about - increasing range on an FCEV is
> > less
> > > likely to add significant weight than it would on a BEV.
> > >
> > > She seems to think that that matters more for trucks than cars.  I'd
> say
> > > that the opposite is true.  When you consider battery weight as a
> > percentage
> > > of a  truck's payload,  more might not be that big a deal.
> > Thanks for the interpretation of the video.  I am generally not willing
> > to expend expensive bandwidth to view videos.
> > >
> > > She points out that FCEVs fuel faster.  She says 5 minutes for FCEVs;
> > > elsewhere I've read 8 minutes.  However, as superchargers hit 300kW,
> the
> > > difference is narrowing.
> >
> > An anecdote:  I recently charged at one of the new 250kw SuperChargers
> > and was impressed.  Though I did not measure total charge time, I did
> > notice that it started at about 240kw and by the time it had tapered to
> > 200kw, I had added more than 100 miles of range.  I needed more than
> > that 100 miles so spent a total of approximately 20 minutes charging.
> > In our area, 150kw chargers are far more common where 30 minute charge
> > times are typical. 150kw chargers typically peak at 140-145kw and
> > quickly taper.  I do not see real significance in the difference.  When
> > on the road, I spend almost no time waiting for a charge.  Getting
> > coffee and taking head breaks uses most of the charge time.  We've
> > mentioned it MANY times but most, by far, charging takes NO time since
> > it is done at night at homes.
> >
> > Tesla is behind in charging times since all Tesla batteries are ~400
> > volts and can not take advantage of 800 volt chargers. Though I have
> > never actually seen a 800 volt charger.  Quick charging is mostly a
> > concern of those who do no yet have Teslas.
> >
> > In pondering what attraction a FCEV might have over a BEV, I hit upon an
> > extremely minor one.  BEVs do not shed mass as they are driven, while
> > FCEVs do.  So, FCEVs should see a very slight rise in efficiency as they
> > expend their fuel while BEVs do not.  I am NOT claiming that it should
> > be a consideration when making buying decisions.  But, since we are
> > grasping for straws, it is SOMETHING.
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Bobby Keeland via EV]

I found it very interesting when one person who was being interviewed
talked about an advance of FCEVs over BEVs was when refueling at night when
the sun is not and “when the wind is not blowing.” I’ve lived in 10
different states and visited all 50 states. It is clear that wind blows
both during the night and day. I guess that when an investigation/report is
sponsored by Toyota the info presented favors Toyota as much as possible.
The lady also failed to truly list the pollution caused by the predominate
source of hydrogen for the fuel cell. From what I have read many times over
the past few years the majority of hydrogen for fuel cells comes from
natural gas. That natural gas is probably extracted from the earth via
fracking which is most certainly not earth or people friendly.

Bobby Keeland

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 8:08 AM Willie via EV  wrote:

>
> On 8/23/21 6:09 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> > Mark, I'd still like to read YOUR responses to the questions posted here,
> > especially to my own questions.
> Ditto.  Though I have posted no specific questions.  But the primary
> question seems to remain unanswered: "Why might a car buyer select a
> FCEV over a BEV?"
> >
> >
> > That said, thanks for posting that video clip.
> >
> >
> > But that's just technical griping.  To get to the info, the presenter
> made a
> > point that I hadn't thought much about - increasing range on an FCEV is
> less
> > likely to add significant weight than it would on a BEV.
> >
> > She seems to think that that matters more for trucks than cars.  I'd say
> > that the opposite is true.  When you consider battery weight as a
> percentage
> > of a  truck's payload,  more might not be that big a deal.
> Thanks for the interpretation of the video.  I am generally not willing
> to expend expensive bandwidth to view videos.
> >
> > She points out that FCEVs fuel faster.  She says 5 minutes for FCEVs;
> > elsewhere I've read 8 minutes.  However, as superchargers hit 300kW, the
> > difference is narrowing.
>
> An anecdote:  I recently charged at one of the new 250kw SuperChargers
> and was impressed.  Though I did not measure total charge time, I did
> notice that it started at about 240kw and by the time it had tapered to
> 200kw, I had added more than 100 miles of range.  I needed more than
> that 100 miles so spent a total of approximately 20 minutes charging.
> In our area, 150kw chargers are far more common where 30 minute charge
> times are typical. 150kw chargers typically peak at 140-145kw and
> quickly taper.  I do not see real significance in the difference.  When
> on the road, I spend almost no time waiting for a charge.  Getting
> coffee and taking head breaks uses most of the charge time.  We've
> mentioned it MANY times but most, by far, charging takes NO time since
> it is done at night at homes.
>
> Tesla is behind in charging times since all Tesla batteries are ~400
> volts and can not take advantage of 800 volt chargers. Though I have
> never actually seen a 800 volt charger.  Quick charging is mostly a
> concern of those who do no yet have Teslas.
>
> In pondering what attraction a FCEV might have over a BEV, I hit upon an
> extremely minor one.  BEVs do not shed mass as they are driven, while
> FCEVs do.  So, FCEVs should see a very slight rise in efficiency as they
> expend their fuel while BEVs do not.  I am NOT claiming that it should
> be a consideration when making buying decisions.  But, since we are
> grasping for straws, it is SOMETHING.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Willie via EV]

On 8/23/21 6:09 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

Mark, I'd still like to read YOUR responses to the questions posted here,
especially to my own questions.
Ditto.  Though I have posted no specific questions.  But the primary 
question seems to remain unanswered: "Why might a car buyer select a 
FCEV over a BEV?"
  


That said, thanks for posting that video clip.


But that's just technical griping.  To get to the info, the presenter made a
point that I hadn't thought much about - increasing range on an FCEV is less
likely to add significant weight than it would on a BEV.

She seems to think that that matters more for trucks than cars.  I'd say
that the opposite is true.  When you consider battery weight as a percentage
of a  truck's payload,  more might not be that big a deal.
Thanks for the interpretation of the video.  I am generally not willing 
to expend expensive bandwidth to view videos.


She points out that FCEVs fuel faster.  She says 5 minutes for FCEVs;
elsewhere I've read 8 minutes.  However, as superchargers hit 300kW, the
difference is narrowing.


An anecdote:  I recently charged at one of the new 250kw SuperChargers 
and was impressed.  Though I did not measure total charge time, I did 
notice that it started at about 240kw and by the time it had tapered to 
200kw, I had added more than 100 miles of range.  I needed more than 
that 100 miles so spent a total of approximately 20 minutes charging.  
In our area, 150kw chargers are far more common where 30 minute charge 
times are typical. 150kw chargers typically peak at 140-145kw and 
quickly taper.  I do not see real significance in the difference.  When 
on the road, I spend almost no time waiting for a charge.  Getting 
coffee and taking head breaks uses most of the charge time.  We've 
mentioned it MANY times but most, by far, charging takes NO time since 
it is done at night at homes.


Tesla is behind in charging times since all Tesla batteries are ~400 
volts and can not take advantage of 800 volt chargers. Though I have 
never actually seen a 800 volt charger.  Quick charging is mostly a 
concern of those who do no yet have Teslas.


In pondering what attraction a FCEV might have over a BEV, I hit upon an 
extremely minor one.  BEVs do not shed mass as they are driven, while 
FCEVs do.  So, FCEVs should see a very slight rise in efficiency as they 
expend their fuel while BEVs do not.  I am NOT claiming that it should 
be a consideration when making buying decisions.  But, since we are 
grasping for straws, it is SOMETHING.



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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Mark, I'd still like to read YOUR responses to the questions posted here, 
especially to my own questions.  

That said, thanks for posting that video clip.  

I wasn't too impressed with the production itself - all those annoying jump 
cuts!  I don't undertand why producers will put significant effort into a 
production, but can't be bothered to set up a second camera (old mobile 
phones are cheap) so they have another angle for editing without jump cuts.  
They don't even seem to know how to make or use simple B-roll.  

At least she was more prepared than the "Hey youtubers, today we're gonna 
look at ..." crowd who just wing it, wasting the viewers' time with semi-
coherent rambling.  

But that's just technical griping.  To get to the info, the presenter made a 
point that I hadn't thought much about - increasing range on an FCEV is less 
likely to add significant weight than it would on a BEV.  

She seems to think that that matters more for trucks than cars.  I'd say 
that the opposite is true.  When you consider battery weight as a percentage 
of a  truck's payload,  more might not be that big a deal.

She points out that FCEVs fuel faster.  She says 5 minutes for FCEVs; 
elsewhere I've read 8 minutes.  However, as superchargers hit 300kW, the 
difference is narrowing.  

So 2 of her 5 points - refueling and other uses - may give a slight edge to 
FCEVs. 

But her 3 other points are either pretty close to a toss-up (range), or come 
down solidly in favor of BEVs (efficiency and infrastructure)..  

That's especially true of infrastructure, because H2 stations are costly to 
build - from what I've just read, around $2.8 million.  However, adding 
150kW charging to existing filling stations costs less than $150k per 
charging point.

I was *really* irritated when she brought up that old, long-since debunked 
fiction, "If all our cars were EVs they'd take down the grid."  "All EVs" 
isn't going to happen overnight, nor any time soon, and possibly never.  
There's plenty of time for utlities to catch up.  She should know better.

On the balance, I thought that on her 5 challenge points, BEVs were the 
clear winner -  IN SPITE of "By the way, thank you to Toyota for sponsoring 
this entire series."  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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