A few responses: FCEVs are certainly earlier stage than EVs. Costs are coming down quickly. But to the consumer, FCEVs aren’t necessary more expensive. For the cost of a Tesla S, the only one out when I bought my first FCEV, I could buy at least two FCEVs, taking into account factory and other incentives.
Currently, are they more expensive? I don’t know. Taking into account infrastructure, particularly at scale, FCEVs are cheaper. To a consumer, only if they need to put in charging or fueling infrastructure. Cost to operate - you give no costs, only efficiency numbers. fCEV owners pay no nothing for fuel for the first three years. If they lease, nothing. We own one, and lease one. If you own, after the first three years, it’s VERY expensive, though costs are coming down. Maintenance is part of cost to own. Some manufacturers include it, some don’t. I don’t know operating costs of an EV, so can’t compare. One company charges 31¢/kWh IIRC. Efficiency - if your question is “to the consumer” it’s not as simple as miles per kWh. Do consumers even know that? What about time efficiency? Isn’t my time spent charging worth something? For some, sure they charge at home and it works for them. For others that’s not real world. BTW, efficiencies on both fuel cell and electrolyzers are increasing quickly. And then, you need to ask “under what conditions?”. What’s the efficiency at 0 degrees F? 110 degrees F? Infrastructure- Yes, currently infrastructure for H2 needs to be better. For a consumer, if there’s convenient fueling for you, there’s no problem. If not, it’s not for you. Same as the problem was for BEVs as few years ago. But stations are *not* being closed. If fact, the rollout of stations is accelerating, in California and internationally. Weight - your claim that they are the same was interesting, so I looked up the weight of the Honda Clarity Fuel cell and the Honda Clarity BEV. They *are* the same weight, but the BEV has an EPA range of 48 miles while the FCEV has a range of 366 or so. Of course that changes a LOT for the BEV (and not in a good way) when you have extremes of temperature. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 23, 2021, at 4:27 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > I thought it was obvious I was comparing BEV vs FCEV. Apparently not. > >> Higher cost to build? Well, yeah. But don’t BEVs cost more to build, > An FCEV is an EV with a fuel cell, so most of the extra BEV costs are still > there (still needs an electric motor/controller/batteries/etc) > You say a little by using a smaller battery pack but then spend a LOT more of > the fuel cell, tank(s), etc. > >> Higher cost to operate. For the consumer? Really? > Compared to an BEV? Yes, absolutely, much higher. It gets even worse if you > use green H2 since it requires about 3-4x as much electricity per mile to > make the H2 vs charging an EV. > >> Lower efficiency. Lower efficiency of what, and to whom? > Miles per kWh. To EVERYONE. > Modern LiIon batteries are about 90% efficient at storing energy, chargers > are also around 90%, equaling roughly 80% efficient at stroing electricity > (and that can be improved) > Modern electrolyzers are around 80-85% efficient and fuel cells are around > 60%, which means a combined efficiency of ~50%, and that does NOT count any > energy used to compress the H2, which front what I've read brings the total > storage efficiency down to around 25-30%...at best. You'll also have > additional losses charging/discharging the batteries on the FCEV. > >> >> No existing infrastructure. Again, this all depends. If you have access to a >> station and 5 minutes >> to fill every 300 miles or so, that’s plenty . > Currently there are less than 40 public H2 stations around LA. There are > zero H2 stations anywhere else in the USA. > Currently, in the USA, there are over 1,000 public charging stations for > every public H2 station. This number is increasing because while they are > constantly installing new EV charging stations, they are shutting down H2 > stations. > For all intents and purposes, there is NO H2 fueling infrastructure in the > USA, while Public EV charging stations are becoming common acrost most of the > USA. Extremely common on the coasts. > > As stated above, if you are cracking water for you FCEV, then it takes 3-4x > as much electricity per mile to charge at home (compared to a BEV) > > The weight of modern FCEV is roughly the same as the weight of comparable > BEVs, so that's not an advantage to either. > > They have EVs available today that can recharge almost as fast as refueling a > FCEV, and you can hook up the charge cord yourself, from what I've read every > H2 fueling station requires a trained individual to connect the hose. > Waiting for him/her to show up could elliminate the remaining time advantage. > > Consumers won't purchase FCEV unless they perceive and advantage TO THEM. > Let me put it simply, what advantages do YOU see to ANYONE other than the > folks that make H2? > How do you see these advantages making FCEV economically viable? > Viable enough to justify creating a nation wide H2 fueling infracstructure > from scratch? > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > _______________________________________________ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
