Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?
I agree with you 100% about your design approach with relays. I took the same approach. I see the same issues with out sourced and China designs. In addition, US management has said to their engineering staff, if they can do it then you do it. I fought this battle at numerous design reviews. Therefore, I am not surprised that this Smart Fortwo? burn to a crisp. As far as UL, UL is not what they used to be. Things changed when the US changed to NRTLs. In order to compete for business, the labs have gotten cozy with businesses. From: Lee Hart Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 2:28 PM To: ROBERT Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ? ROBERT wrote: > Lee, you are correct. I agree; however, I would never use a relay on an EVSE. > But that just me. I have a motor control (with correct size heater) on my > outside fountain pump (1/6 HP). Hi ROBERT, All I can say is that both Nissan and Toyota used relays in their 120vac EVSEs, and both are UL listed. That means they satisfied UL that they are safe. I worked for Robertshaw and Honeywell for well over a decade, designing controls for large home appliances and furnaces. In all but the highest power ones, we used relays. But they weren't your run-of-the-mill cheap relays; they were ones with a long list of safety approvals and testing. And, we often had backup systems in place to detect a welded relay contact and stop operation some other way. For example, TWO relays in series, with logic that tested each one individually before closing both to energize the load. One thing that saddens me is that large amount of such "intrinsically safe" design has gone out the window as companies weaken the regulations and outsource everything to countries where safety testing is weak or nonexistent. Manufacturers now get controls from China that do things that would NEVER be tolerated in a US product. -- Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace. -- Dalai Lama -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com<http://www.sunrise-ev.com> The Sunrise EV2 Project<http://www.sunrise-ev.com/> www.sunrise-ev.com The Sunrise EV2 Project Homepage. Welcome! We are a group of dedicated electric vehicle enthusiasts whose goal is to create an affordable, high performance electric ... -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20170712/1d22627c/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?
ROBERT via EV wrote: I ask again. Is it a relay or a contactor? And before you answer, remember that a relay is tested to a different set of requirements than a contactor. The problem with a solid state relay is not the failure mode but the fact that a solid state device always has some level of leakage current. In other words, a SSD cannot provide complete isolation from a source. Have you every seen a UL listed (UL489) solid state branch circuit protection device? Contactors are basically larger, more powerful versions of relays. You're right; they are often tested to different standards, because of the power level and consequences of failure can be more drastic. A 120vac EVSE could use a relay. I have two, and they both use small inexpensive relays. A 240vac EVSE is higher power, and almost certainly would use a contactor. I have one EVSE, and it has a contactor. No way would I trust a solid-state relay for a safety disconnect! -- Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace. -- Dalai Lama -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?
I ask again. Is it a relay or a contactor? And before you answer, remember that a relay is tested to a different set of requirements than a contactor. The problem with a solid state relay is not the failure mode but the fact that a solid state device always has some level of leakage current. In other words, a SSD cannot provide complete isolation from a source. Have you every seen a UL listed (UL489) solid state branch circuit protection device? From: EV on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:50 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ? Robert, full galvanic isolation requires a mechanical relay in the EVSE, as the failure mode of a "solid state relay" (fancy words for essentially a transistor) is to fail "ON" (shorted). That is not an acceptable failure mode when the point of the EVSE is to disconnect power in failure situations. Cor. From: ROBERT [mailto:bhensle...@msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:09 PM To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ? Cor van de Water wrote: " Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply." Is this relay a mechanical relay or a contactor or solid state relay? From: EV on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:01 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ? I looked at the pictures and wondered the same - if the yellow cord was the connection between car and EVSE then the only way the EVSE coud set the car on fire would be burning bits to fall off and somehow reach the car, as most of the cord appears undamaged. However, it appears that the coiled yellow cord was enclosed in a sleeve, the tube-like thingy that is laying on the ground. So, it is possible that a fire in the EVSE traveled over the *outside* of the sleeve and set the last few feet of charging cord on fire, which then lit the car up. The weird thing is that the least affected spot on the whole vehicle is directy under the charging plug, as that tire appears complete while all other rims have burned off their tires, in the front therims are molten as well, so the temps must have been around 1000 deg C inside the fire. That is still possible, even if the car was lit up in the back via the cord, it only takes a light breeze from the back to cool the back side of an object and drive the flames in the forward direction... -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton via EV Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:41 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ? Cor van de Water wrote: > Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply. > As I related before, any wire that is damaged or improperly tightened > can burn, even if not overloaded for the spec of the wire. > If the EVSE is not frequently used, there is the risk of corrosion of > the relay contacts, adding to the resistance and easily causing > overheating of the relay or even starting a fire. Even if this were the case, it would result in the EVSE itself perhaps catching fire, or otherwise failing and interrupting AC power to the car's on-board charger. It is difficult to imagine a scenario where the wall-mounted EVSE visible in the pictures could burn with such intensity as to catch a nearby vehicle on fire in this way. I find it especially difficult to believe given that some of the photos clearly show the charge cord still attached to the vehicle, and aside for the few feet immediately at the car end of the cord, the cord itself appears undamaged. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20170711/2e4dcd6f/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://grou
Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?
Cor van de Water wrote: " Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply." Is this relay a mechanical relay or a contactor or solid state relay? From: EV on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:01 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ? I looked at the pictures and wondered the same - if the yellow cord was the connection between car and EVSE then the only way the EVSE coud set the car on fire would be burning bits to fall off and somehow reach the car, as most of the cord appears undamaged. However, it appears that the coiled yellow cord was enclosed in a sleeve, the tube-like thingy that is laying on the ground. So, it is possible that a fire in the EVSE traveled over the *outside* of the sleeve and set the last few feet of charging cord on fire, which then lit the car up. The weird thing is that the least affected spot on the whole vehicle is directy under the charging plug, as that tire appears complete while all other rims have burned off their tires, in the front therims are molten as well, so the temps must have been around 1000 deg C inside the fire. That is still possible, even if the car was lit up in the back via the cord, it only takes a light breeze from the back to cool the back side of an object and drive the flames in the forward direction... -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton via EV Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:41 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ? Cor van de Water wrote: > Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply. > As I related before, any wire that is damaged or improperly tightened > can burn, even if not overloaded for the spec of the wire. > If the EVSE is not frequently used, there is the risk of corrosion of > the relay contacts, adding to the resistance and easily causing > overheating of the relay or even starting a fire. Even if this were the case, it would result in the EVSE itself perhaps catching fire, or otherwise failing and interrupting AC power to the car's on-board charger. It is difficult to imagine a scenario where the wall-mounted EVSE visible in the pictures could burn with such intensity as to catch a nearby vehicle on fire in this way. I find it especially difficult to believe given that some of the photos clearly show the charge cord still attached to the vehicle, and aside for the few feet immediately at the car end of the cord, the cord itself appears undamaged. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20170711/94c03379/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?
Robert, full galvanic isolation requires a mechanical relay in the EVSE, as the failure mode of a "solid state relay" (fancy words for essentially a transistor) is to fail "ON" (shorted). That is not an acceptable failure mode when the point of the EVSE is to disconnect power in failure situations. Cor. From: ROBERT [mailto:bhensle...@msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:09 PM To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ? Cor van de Water wrote: " Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply." Is this relay a mechanical relay or a contactor or solid state relay? From: EV on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:01 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ? I looked at the pictures and wondered the same - if the yellow cord was the connection between car and EVSE then the only way the EVSE coud set the car on fire would be burning bits to fall off and somehow reach the car, as most of the cord appears undamaged. However, it appears that the coiled yellow cord was enclosed in a sleeve, the tube-like thingy that is laying on the ground. So, it is possible that a fire in the EVSE traveled over the *outside* of the sleeve and set the last few feet of charging cord on fire, which then lit the car up. The weird thing is that the least affected spot on the whole vehicle is directy under the charging plug, as that tire appears complete while all other rims have burned off their tires, in the front therims are molten as well, so the temps must have been around 1000 deg C inside the fire. That is still possible, even if the car was lit up in the back via the cord, it only takes a light breeze from the back to cool the back side of an object and drive the flames in the forward direction... -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton via EV Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:41 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ? Cor van de Water wrote: > Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply. > As I related before, any wire that is damaged or improperly tightened > can burn, even if not overloaded for the spec of the wire. > If the EVSE is not frequently used, there is the risk of corrosion of > the relay contacts, adding to the resistance and easily causing > overheating of the relay or even starting a fire. Even if this were the case, it would result in the EVSE itself perhaps catching fire, or otherwise failing and interrupting AC power to the car's on-board charger. It is difficult to imagine a scenario where the wall-mounted EVSE visible in the pictures could burn with such intensity as to catch a nearby vehicle on fire in this way. I find it especially difficult to believe given that some of the photos clearly show the charge cord still attached to the vehicle, and aside for the few feet immediately at the car end of the cord, the cord itself appears undamaged. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20170711/2e4dcd6f/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?
22kw from 3 x 240 volt phases at 32 amps each. The EVSE signals amps not watts. The car draws 7kw single phase and 22kw three phase. At least that's what my Australian Tesla does. Euro cars have Mennekes sockets with three live pins not j1772 or Tesla proprietary sockets. John Lindsay > On 12 Jul 2017, at 8:14 am, Lawrence Harris via EV wrote: > > The European smart ED supports 22kW charge rate, we only get 3.3kW with a > measly 7.2kW on the 2017 models. > > So a Europan smart could maybe ask for 22kW from a 7.2kW EVSE which if it > failed to limit the current might overheat and … > > Seems unlikely the EVSE would fail and the beaker would fail and then the > fire jump to the car and cause all this damage. More likely there was a > short in the car or someone torched it. > > My takeaway is the plastic in these items needs to have fire resistance added > so it can’t burn. > > Regards, > Lawrence Harris > lhar...@haritech.com > > > > >> On Jul 11, 2017, at 15:03, David Kerzel via EV wrote: >> >> In your example the EVSE is set for 40 amps providing 32 Amps via the PILOT >> signal but powered by 30 Amp circuit. If the car could use 32 amps the 30 >> amp breaker even with tolerance should trip in about an hour. Can the car >> in question charge at 32 Amps? >> I am still confused by how the EVSE even if it was defective or overloaded >> in some way caused the car to burn. The car should only accept the maximum >> amount of power the on board charger is rated for and that has nothing to do >> with the EVSE. >> I suspect the burning car burned the EVSE. I find it hard to believe a >> listed EVSE mounted on a wall would burn with enough intensity to set a >> vehicle on fire. >> David Kerzel >> >> -Original Message- >> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water >> via EV >> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 7:44 PM >> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to >> acrisp ? >> >> Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is safe >> to draw from the electrical connection. >> For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling the >> car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous. >> The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to convey >> this to the EV. >> If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it will >> tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit. >> >> Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself) there >> are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded contact in the >> charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car. >> And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord. >> This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had a >> small fire in his house this last winter due to the wire at the back of the >> wall plug starting to break internally and the remaining strands overheated >> to the point of setting the cord on fire. >> >> I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where the >> wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked before being attached, so >> after successfully washing loads of laundry for years (water was heated >> electrically so the washer drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so >> during a hot wash >> cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke and the wire inside >> the outlet burned clean through. >> There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this was >> purely a resistive heating induced failure. >> >> Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging plug >> contacts, also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger) >> can fail, for example an improperly tightened wire or a loss of water >> cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently fails and burns... >> So many different ways to let the magic smoke out... >> Cor. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Kerzel via EV >> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM >> To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to >> acrisp ? >> >> What does the EVSE have to do with this? The car makes the decisions. >> The EVSE is just a super safe power cord. >> David Kerzel >> >>
Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?
I looked at the pictures and wondered the same - if the yellow cord was the connection between car and EVSE then the only way the EVSE coud set the car on fire would be burning bits to fall off and somehow reach the car, as most of the cord appears undamaged. However, it appears that the coiled yellow cord was enclosed in a sleeve, the tube-like thingy that is laying on the ground. So, it is possible that a fire in the EVSE traveled over the *outside* of the sleeve and set the last few feet of charging cord on fire, which then lit the car up. The weird thing is that the least affected spot on the whole vehicle is directy under the charging plug, as that tire appears complete while all other rims have burned off their tires, in the front therims are molten as well, so the temps must have been around 1000 deg C inside the fire. That is still possible, even if the car was lit up in the back via the cord, it only takes a light breeze from the back to cool the back side of an object and drive the flames in the forward direction... -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton via EV Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:41 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ? Cor van de Water wrote: > Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply. > As I related before, any wire that is damaged or improperly tightened > can burn, even if not overloaded for the spec of the wire. > If the EVSE is not frequently used, there is the risk of corrosion of > the relay contacts, adding to the resistance and easily causing > overheating of the relay or even starting a fire. Even if this were the case, it would result in the EVSE itself perhaps catching fire, or otherwise failing and interrupting AC power to the car's on-board charger. It is difficult to imagine a scenario where the wall-mounted EVSE visible in the pictures could burn with such intensity as to catch a nearby vehicle on fire in this way. I find it especially difficult to believe given that some of the photos clearly show the charge cord still attached to the vehicle, and aside for the few feet immediately at the car end of the cord, the cord itself appears undamaged. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?
Cor van de Water wrote: > Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply. > As I related before, any wire that is damaged or improperly tightened > can burn, even if not overloaded for the spec of the wire. > If the EVSE is not frequently used, there is the risk of corrosion of > the relay contacts, adding to the resistance and easily causing > overheating of the relay or even starting a fire. Even if this were the case, it would result in the EVSE itself perhaps catching fire, or otherwise failing and interrupting AC power to the car's on-board charger. It is difficult to imagine a scenario where the wall-mounted EVSE visible in the pictures could burn with such intensity as to catch a nearby vehicle on fire in this way. I find it especially difficult to believe given that some of the photos clearly show the charge cord still attached to the vehicle, and aside for the few feet immediately at the car end of the cord, the cord itself appears undamaged. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?
Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply. As I related before, any wire that is damaged or improperly tightened can burn, even if not overloaded for the spec of the wire. If the EVSE is not frequently used, there is the risk of corrosion of the relay contacts, adding to the resistance and easily causing overheating of the relay or even starting a fire. I used an outdoor outlet (which was under a massive 8 ft overhang of roof on a patio and inside a weather-protecting cover, so it was never seeing rain) and the outlet was a 20A GFCI protected dual outlet, accepting both NEMA 5-15 and 5-20 plugs. I charged there for months until one day the outlet burned its GFCI contacts open (the GFCI never triggered, it simply overheated and failed) so I replaced it with another (brand new) 20A GFCI outlet and never had any problems. I disected the old outlet and could not find *why* it had failed, so my conclusion was that it was likely the contact resistance of the GFCI relay. The new outlet I exercised the contacts regularly by first unplugging and then pushing the TEST button to turn the outlet off and pushing the RESET button before I plugged in again. -Original Message- From: David Kerzel [mailto:a...@bellsouth.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:03 PM To: Cor van de Water; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' Subject: RE: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ? In your example the EVSE is set for 40 amps providing 32 Amps via the PILOT signal but powered by 30 Amp circuit. If the car could use 32 amps the 30 amp breaker even with tolerance should trip in about an hour. Can the car in question charge at 32 Amps? I am still confused by how the EVSE even if it was defective or overloaded in some way caused the car to burn. The car should only accept the maximum amount of power the on board charger is rated for and that has nothing to do with the EVSE. I suspect the burning car burned the EVSE. I find it hard to believe a listed EVSE mounted on a wall would burn with enough intensity to set a vehicle on fire. David Kerzel -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 7:44 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ? Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is safe to draw from the electrical connection. For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling the car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous. The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to convey this to the EV. If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it will tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit. Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself) there are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded contact in the charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car. And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord. This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had a small fire in his house this last winter due to the wire at the back of the wall plug starting to break internally and the remaining strands overheated to the point of setting the cord on fire. I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where the wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked before being attached, so after successfully washing loads of laundry for years (water was heated electrically so the washer drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so during a hot wash cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke and the wire inside the outlet burned clean through. There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this was purely a resistive heating induced failure. Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging plug contacts, also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger) can fail, for example an improperly tightened wire or a loss of water cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently fails and burns... So many different ways to let the magic smoke out... Cor. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Kerzel via EV Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ? What does the EVSE have to do with this? The car makes the decisions. The EVSE is just a super safe power cord. David Kerzel -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a crisp ? % First look at: http://electric-vehicle-discus
Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?
The European smart ED supports 22kW charge rate, we only get 3.3kW with a measly 7.2kW on the 2017 models. So a Europan smart could maybe ask for 22kW from a 7.2kW EVSE which if it failed to limit the current might overheat and … Seems unlikely the EVSE would fail and the beaker would fail and then the fire jump to the car and cause all this damage. More likely there was a short in the car or someone torched it. My takeaway is the plastic in these items needs to have fire resistance added so it can’t burn. Regards, Lawrence Harris lhar...@haritech.com > On Jul 11, 2017, at 15:03, David Kerzel via EV wrote: > > In your example the EVSE is set for 40 amps providing 32 Amps via the PILOT > signal but powered by 30 Amp circuit. If the car could use 32 amps the 30 > amp breaker even with tolerance should trip in about an hour. Can the car > in question charge at 32 Amps? > I am still confused by how the EVSE even if it was defective or overloaded > in some way caused the car to burn. The car should only accept the maximum > amount of power the on board charger is rated for and that has nothing to do > with the EVSE. > I suspect the burning car burned the EVSE. I find it hard to believe a > listed EVSE mounted on a wall would burn with enough intensity to set a > vehicle on fire. > David Kerzel > > -Original Message- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water > via EV > Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 7:44 PM > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to > acrisp ? > > Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is safe > to draw from the electrical connection. > For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling the > car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous. > The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to convey > this to the EV. > If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it will > tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit. > > Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself) there > are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded contact in the > charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car. > And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord. > This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had a > small fire in his house this last winter due to the wire at the back of the > wall plug starting to break internally and the remaining strands overheated > to the point of setting the cord on fire. > > I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where the > wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked before being attached, so > after successfully washing loads of laundry for years (water was heated > electrically so the washer drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so > during a hot wash > cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke and the wire inside > the outlet burned clean through. > There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this was > purely a resistive heating induced failure. > > Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging plug > contacts, also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger) > can fail, for example an improperly tightened wire or a loss of water > cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently fails and burns... > So many different ways to let the magic smoke out... > Cor. > > -Original Message- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Kerzel via EV > Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM > To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to > acrisp ? > > What does the EVSE have to do with this? The car makes the decisions. > The EVSE is just a super safe power cord. > David Kerzel > > -Original Message- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV > Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM > To: ev@lists.evdl.org > Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a crisp > ? > > % First look at: > > > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Fau > lty- > wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html > EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk > Electric car gutted by flames after it set fire while charging An electric > car was left completely burnt out after it set on fire while charging. The > vehicle was destroyed and a nearby building was damag
Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?
In your example the EVSE is set for 40 amps providing 32 Amps via the PILOT
signal but powered by 30 Amp circuit. If the car could use 32 amps the 30
amp breaker even with tolerance should trip in about an hour. Can the car
in question charge at 32 Amps?
I am still confused by how the EVSE even if it was defective or overloaded
in some way caused the car to burn. The car should only accept the maximum
amount of power the on board charger is rated for and that has nothing to do
with the EVSE.
I suspect the burning car burned the EVSE. I find it hard to believe a
listed EVSE mounted on a wall would burn with enough intensity to set a
vehicle on fire.
David Kerzel
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 7:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?
Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is safe
to draw from the electrical connection.
For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling the
car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous.
The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to convey
this to the EV.
If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it will
tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit.
Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself) there
are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded contact in the
charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car.
And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord.
This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had a
small fire in his house this last winter due to the wire at the back of the
wall plug starting to break internally and the remaining strands overheated
to the point of setting the cord on fire.
I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where the
wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked before being attached, so
after successfully washing loads of laundry for years (water was heated
electrically so the washer drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so
during a hot wash
cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke and the wire inside
the outlet burned clean through.
There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this was
purely a resistive heating induced failure.
Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging plug
contacts, also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger)
can fail, for example an improperly tightened wire or a loss of water
cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently fails and burns...
So many different ways to let the magic smoke out...
Cor.
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Kerzel via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM
To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?
What does the EVSE have to do with this? The car makes the decisions.
The EVSE is just a super safe power cord.
David Kerzel
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a crisp
?
% First look at:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Fau
lty-
wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html
EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk
Electric car gutted by flames after it set fire while charging An electric
car was left completely burnt out after it set on fire while charging. The
vehicle was destroyed and a nearby building was damaged by smoke in the ...
then at the end I placed some image links of Smart EV frames without their
body.
The EV's body was not metal and completely bunt away. Only the metal frame
was left, including the metal frame for the doors. Compare, and decide. Was
this EV really a Smart? Or was it something else.
http://evdl.org/evln/
For all EVLN EV-newswire posts
{brucedp.neocities.org}
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Is-this-rea
lly-
a-Smart-Fortwo-ED-EV-that-burnt-to-a-crisp-tp4687297.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?
Notice the burnt EVSE mounted on the wall.
Of course the caption improperly identifies this as the lithium battery it is
obvious it is the wall mounted EVSE.
From: Cor van de Water via EV
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp
?
Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is
safe to draw from the electrical connection.
For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling
the car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous.
The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to
convey this to the EV.
If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it
will tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit.
Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself)
there are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded
contact in the charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car.
And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord.
This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had
a small fire in his house this last winter
due to the wire at the back of the wall plug starting to break
internally and the remaining strands overheated to the point
of setting the cord on fire.
I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where
the wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked
before being attached, so after successfully washing loads of laundry
for years (water was heated electrically so the washer
drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so during a hot wash
cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke
and the wire inside the outlet burned clean through.
There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this
was purely a resistive heating induced failure.
Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging
plug contacts,
also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger) can
fail, for example an improperly tightened wire
or a loss of water cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently
fails and burns...
So many different ways to let the magic smoke out...
Cor.
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Kerzel
via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM
To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?
What does the EVSE have to do with this? The car makes the decisions.
The EVSE is just a super safe power cord.
David Kerzel
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a
crisp ?
% First look at:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Fau
lty-
wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html
EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk
Electric car gutted by flames after it set fire while charging An
electric car was left completely burnt out after it set on fire while
charging. The vehicle was destroyed and a nearby building was damaged by
smoke in the ...
then at the end I placed some image links of Smart EV frames without
their body.
The EV's body was not metal and completely bunt away. Only the metal
frame was left, including the metal frame for the doors. Compare, and
decide. Was this EV really a Smart? Or was it something else.
http://evdl.org/evln/
For all EVLN EV-newswire posts
{brucedp.neocities.org}
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Is-this-rea
lly-
a-Smart-Fortwo-ED-EV-that-burnt-to-a-crisp-tp4687297.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?
Interesting. Obviously the plastic body of the smart was quite flammable and maybe Mercedes should address that problem. My normal comeback on these incidents is - have you noticed those rectangular black spots along the sides of the highways in summer? The stated reason in the article was an electrical fault but it could have been arson as well. This occurred yesterday and the article was published about 8 hours after the fire was reported put out. It seems unlikely that it’s actually been investigated yet and that was just the initial opinion of either the fire department on sight or maybe even the reporter. These incidents should be investigated the failure mode determined and remediation recommended for future installations. Maybe the EVSE’s should have a thermal sensor so that connection blocks that are getting too hot cause a shutdown and the charging circuits in the car should have the same. I know the battery modules do (or should) but the main charger circuits could have the same. We are now required to install spark gap circuit breakers in houses on the circuits that are in bedrooms, smoke detectors, etc. it would be small leap to require similar in the vehicle and/or the EVSE circuit. It would be really nice to know as well if the fault was in the car or the EVSE. If cars were airplanes all this would be second nature. We demand to know why each and every plane crashes but just assume that unless a particular model car starts to show in the statistics we just ignore problems and assume human error or a one off manufacturing defect and go ‘oh well…" Regards, Lawrence Harris lhar...@haritech.com > On Jul 10, 2017, at 16:43, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: > > Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is > safe to draw from the electrical connection. > For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling > the car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous. > The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to > convey this to the EV. > If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it > will tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit. > > Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself) > there are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded > contact in the charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car. > And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord. > This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had > a small fire in his house this last winter > due to the wire at the back of the wall plug starting to break > internally and the remaining strands overheated to the point > of setting the cord on fire. > > I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where > the wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked > before being attached, so after successfully washing loads of laundry > for years (water was heated electrically so the washer > drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so during a hot wash > cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke > and the wire inside the outlet burned clean through. > There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this > was purely a resistive heating induced failure. > > Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging > plug contacts, > also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger) can > fail, for example an improperly tightened wire > or a loss of water cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently > fails and burns... > So many different ways to let the magic smoke out... > Cor. > > -Original Message- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Kerzel > via EV > Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM > To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' > Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to > acrisp ? > > What does the EVSE have to do with this? The car makes the decisions. > The EVSE is just a super safe power cord. > David Kerzel > > -Original Message- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV > Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM > To: ev@lists.evdl.org > Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a > crisp ? > > % First look at: > > > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Fau > lty- > wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html > EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk > Electric car gutted by flames after it set fire while charging An > electric car was left completely burnt out after it set on fir
Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?
Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is
safe to draw from the electrical connection.
For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling
the car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous.
The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to
convey this to the EV.
If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it
will tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit.
Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself)
there are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded
contact in the charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car.
And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord.
This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had
a small fire in his house this last winter
due to the wire at the back of the wall plug starting to break
internally and the remaining strands overheated to the point
of setting the cord on fire.
I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where
the wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked
before being attached, so after successfully washing loads of laundry
for years (water was heated electrically so the washer
drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so during a hot wash
cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke
and the wire inside the outlet burned clean through.
There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this
was purely a resistive heating induced failure.
Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging
plug contacts,
also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger) can
fail, for example an improperly tightened wire
or a loss of water cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently
fails and burns...
So many different ways to let the magic smoke out...
Cor.
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Kerzel
via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM
To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?
What does the EVSE have to do with this? The car makes the decisions.
The EVSE is just a super safe power cord.
David Kerzel
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a
crisp ?
% First look at:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Fau
lty-
wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html
EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk
Electric car gutted by flames after it set fire while charging An
electric car was left completely burnt out after it set on fire while
charging. The vehicle was destroyed and a nearby building was damaged by
smoke in the ...
then at the end I placed some image links of Smart EV frames without
their body.
The EV's body was not metal and completely bunt away. Only the metal
frame was left, including the metal frame for the doors. Compare, and
decide. Was this EV really a Smart? Or was it something else.
http://evdl.org/evln/
For all EVLN EV-newswire posts
{brucedp.neocities.org}
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Is-this-rea
lly-
a-Smart-Fortwo-ED-EV-that-burnt-to-a-crisp-tp4687297.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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