Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Roger Stockton via EV]

Peri Hartman wrote:

> I don't think the desire for crash safety will go away.  Just because
> the odds decrease doesn't mean one doesn't want protection.  I can go
> on, but I think everyone knows what I mean.

In a word: "Titanic". ;^>

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Lawrence,

I took another, close look at the article.  It is a very impressive 
project and shows that it is possible to build a long range solar 
vehicle.  Not only that, it appears the group worked hard to build a 
vehicle that one could imagine morphing into a production vehicle.


That said, I didn't see anything in the article (could be mentioned 
elsewhere) that it p[assed Dutch safety standards.  It does say "fully 
road worthy in The Netherlands" but I doubt that's the same thing as 
passing safety standards.  It certainly isn't in the US, where each 
model must go through destructive crash tests to get a rating.


I also believe there's a big market demand difference from building what 
is essentially a 4 person sports car and a 4 person sedan.  In the 
Stella Lux, the bottom part of the doors appear to be thick, but the 
thin - window - part might still be in the bumper height range of an SUV 
or truck.  Also the design is very prone to damage during parking and 
other tight manipulations.  The back corners of the PV roof look very 
easy to get hit.


Still, I will be excited to see what the next iteration will produce.  
They're on to something good.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 31-Jan-16 11:00:54 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

Please look at the thickness of the doors, the specifications & that 
the car passed Dutch safety standards.  This is a real vehicle which 
though coming in second to the Japanese they won on points for comfort 
& space inside their vehicle.  If you look across the back seats you 
will see a roll cage and a strong carbon fiber bulkhead.  Lawrence 
Rhodes URL below



http://sinovoltaics.com/technology/stella-lux-winner-of-world-solar-challenge-visits-shanghai/


- Original Message -
From: Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com>
To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>

Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 7:14 AM
Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

My statement and questions were more general.  I was curious about
actually being able to build any 4 passenger (even 2 passenger) EV at
1000 pounds, not particularly a solar one.  As David pointed out, to
make a legally marketable EV it has to meet a lot of safety 
requirements
and have at least some creature comforts, too.  That provides, indeed, 
a

challenge to build something so light.

Peri


-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org"
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 31-Jan-16 1:30:57 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.


  Peri.  You didn't read the article.   Stella Lux used off the shelf
specially encapsulated cells from Sunpower.  Many of the components 
are

off the shelf.  Since the vehicle has a small pack it is much cheaper
to build. Much quicker to charge and it only takes 10 hours to charge
on solar.  95% of the time a car is sitting.  With solar panels it can
sit in the sun. The weight of the solar panels is negligible.  Lots of
great things happen when you get light.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Larry Gales via EV]

In the fairly near future I wonder if crash worthiness will be that
important.  Self driving cars (or ones that are close to self driving) will
mainly be achieved through sensors and electronics, neither of which should
add much mass to the car. So you achieve safety, not through armor, but
through avoiding accidents.

Of course that requires that nearly all cars be self driving

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> Please look at the thickness of the doors, the specifications & that the
> car passed Dutch safety standards.  This is a real vehicle which though
> coming in second to the Japanese they won on points for comfort & space
> inside their vehicle.  If you look across the back seats you will see a
> roll cage and a strong carbon fiber bulkhead.  Lawrence Rhodes URL below
>
>
>
> http://sinovoltaics.com/technology/stella-lux-winner-of-world-solar-challenge-visits-shanghai/
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com>
> To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 7:14 AM
> Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.
>
> My statement and questions were more general.  I was curious about
> actually being able to build any 4 passenger (even 2 passenger) EV at
> 1000 pounds, not particularly a solar one.  As David pointed out, to
> make a legally marketable EV it has to meet a lot of safety requirements
> and have at least some creature comforts, too.  That provides, indeed, a
> challenge to build something so light.
>
> Peri
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org"
> <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: 31-Jan-16 1:30:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.
>
> >  Peri.  You didn't read the article.   Stella Lux used off the shelf
> >specially encapsulated cells from Sunpower.  Many of the components are
> >off the shelf.  Since the vehicle has a small pack it is much cheaper
> >to build. Much quicker to charge and it only takes 10 hours to charge
> >on solar.  95% of the time a car is sitting.  With solar panels it can
> >sit in the sun. The weight of the solar panels is negligible.  Lots of
> >great things happen when you get light.  Lawrence Rhodes
> >-- next part --
> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >URL:
> ><
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160131/b7f8a621/attachment.htm
> >
> >___
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> >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA
> )
> >
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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I don't think the desire for crash safety will go away.  Just because 
the odds decrease doesn't mean one doesn't want protection.  I can go 
on, but I think everyone knows what I mean.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Larry Gales via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; "Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>

Sent: 05-Feb-16 1:49:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.


In the fairly near future I wonder if crash worthiness will be that
important.  Self driving cars (or ones that are close to self driving) 
will
mainly be achieved through sensors and electronics, neither of which 
should

add much mass to the car. So you achieve safety, not through armor, but
through avoiding accidents.

Of course that requires that nearly all cars be self driving

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>

wrote:

 Please look at the thickness of the doors, the specifications & that 
the
 car passed Dutch safety standards.  This is a real vehicle which 
though
 coming in second to the Japanese they won on points for comfort & 
space
 inside their vehicle.  If you look across the back seats you will see 
a
 roll cage and a strong carbon fiber bulkhead.  Lawrence Rhodes URL 
below




 
http://sinovoltaics.com/technology/stella-lux-winner-of-world-solar-challenge-visits-shanghai/



 - Original Message -
 From: Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com>
 To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
<

 ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 7:14 AM
 Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

 My statement and questions were more general.  I was curious about
 actually being able to build any 4 passenger (even 2 passenger) EV at
 1000 pounds, not particularly a solar one.  As David pointed out, to
 make a legally marketable EV it has to meet a lot of safety 
requirements
 and have at least some creature comforts, too.  That provides, 
indeed, a

 challenge to build something so light.

 Peri


 -- Original Message --
 From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org"
 <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 Sent: 31-Jan-16 1:30:57 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

 >  Peri.  You didn't read the article.   Stella Lux used off the 
shelf
 >specially encapsulated cells from Sunpower.  Many of the components 
are
 >off the shelf.  Since the vehicle has a small pack it is much 
cheaper
 >to build. Much quicker to charge and it only takes 10 hours to 
charge
 >on solar.  95% of the time a car is sitting.  With solar panels it 
can
 >sit in the sun. The weight of the solar panels is negligible.  Lots 
of

 >great things happen when you get light.  Lawrence Rhodes
 >-- next part --
 >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
 >URL:
 ><
 
http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160131/b7f8a621/attachment.htm

 >
 >___
 >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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 >Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
 >Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
 >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA
 )
 >
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 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)





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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Brandon Hines via EV]

I don't think that it is just a matter of odds.  With autonomous cars
there are many opportunities to change the safety equation.

Here are a few thoughts:
- If a car sees that it will soon experience an accident, it could take
partial evasive actions to minimize the impact thereby reducing the need
for as much heavy materials.
- Cars that contain less heavy materials need fewer batteries which
makes them even lighter.
- If cars all utilize lighter materials and fewer batteries then they
will exert less force during an impact.
- Cars may also be able to coordinate partial evasive actions further
reducing high impact scenarios.

A lot may be done by trading the weight of heavy safety materials and
replacing them with spongy exteriors and intelligent automated
responsiveness.

-Brandon


On 02/05/2016 04:17 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> I don't think the desire for crash safety will go away.  Just because
> the odds decrease doesn't mean one doesn't want protection.  I can go
> on, but I think everyone knows what I mean.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Larry Gales via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; "Electric Vehicle
> Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: 05-Feb-16 1:49:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.
>
>> In the fairly near future I wonder if crash worthiness will be that
>> important.  Self driving cars (or ones that are close to self
>> driving) will
>> mainly be achieved through sensors and electronics, neither of which
>> should
>> add much mass to the car. So you achieve safety, not through armor, but
>> through avoiding accidents.
>>
>> Of course that requires that nearly all cars be self driving
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV
>> <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>  Please look at the thickness of the doors, the specifications &
>>> that the
>>>  car passed Dutch safety standards.  This is a real vehicle which
>>> though
>>>  coming in second to the Japanese they won on points for comfort &
>>> space
>>>  inside their vehicle.  If you look across the back seats you will
>>> see a
>>>  roll cage and a strong carbon fiber bulkhead.  Lawrence Rhodes URL
>>> below
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>> http://sinovoltaics.com/technology/stella-lux-winner-of-world-solar-challenge-visits-shanghai/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  - Original Message -
>>>  From: Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com>
>>>  To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>;
>>> "ev@lists.evdl.org" <
>>>  ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>>  Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 7:14 AM
>>>  Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.
>>>
>>>  My statement and questions were more general.  I was curious about
>>>  actually being able to build any 4 passenger (even 2 passenger) EV at
>>>  1000 pounds, not particularly a solar one.  As David pointed out, to
>>>  make a legally marketable EV it has to meet a lot of safety
>>> requirements
>>>  and have at least some creature comforts, too.  That provides,
>>> indeed, a
>>>  challenge to build something so light.
>>>
>>>  Peri
>>>
>>>
>>>  -- Original Message --
>>>  From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>>  To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org"
>>>  <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>>  Sent: 31-Jan-16 1:30:57 AM
>>>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.
>>>
>>>  >  Peri.  You didn't read the article.   Stella Lux used off the shelf
>>>  >specially encapsulated cells from Sunpower.  Many of the
>>> components are
>>>  >off the shelf.  Since the vehicle has a small pack it is much cheaper
>>>  >to build. Much quicker to charge and it only takes 10 hours to charge
>>>  >on solar.  95% of the time a car is sitting.  With solar panels it
>>> can
>>>  >sit in the sun. The weight of the solar panels is negligible. 
>>> Lots of
>>>  >great things happen when you get light.  Lawrence Rhodes
>>>  >-- next part --
>>>  >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>  >URL:
>>>  ><
>>>  
>>> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachme

Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 31 Jan 2016 at 11:21, Lee Hart via EV wrote ...

... essentially what I wrote, but better and more succinctly.  Thanks, Lee.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Mike Nickerson via EV]

I would really like to see a video of someone getting into and out of the car.  
It only stands 43 inches tall.  I suspect you would have to be very flexible.

Mike


On January 31, 2016 12:00:54 PM MST, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
wrote:
>Please look at the thickness of the doors, the specifications & that
>the car passed Dutch safety standards.  This is a real vehicle which
>though coming in second to the Japanese they won on points for comfort
>& space inside their vehicle.  If you look across the back seats you
>will see a roll cage and a strong carbon fiber bulkhead.  Lawrence
>Rhodes URL below
>
>
>http://sinovoltaics.com/technology/stella-lux-winner-of-world-solar-challenge-visits-shanghai/
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com>
>To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; "ev@lists.evdl.org"
><ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 7:14 AM
>Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car. 
>
>My statement and questions were more general.  I was curious about 
>actually being able to build any 4 passenger (even 2 passenger) EV at 
>1000 pounds, not particularly a solar one.  As David pointed out, to 
>make a legally marketable EV it has to meet a lot of safety
>requirements 
>and have at least some creature comforts, too.  That provides, indeed,
>a 
>challenge to build something so light.
>
>Peri
>
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
><ev@lists.evdl.org>
>Sent: 31-Jan-16 1:30:57 AM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.
>
>>  Peri.  You didn't read the article.   Stella Lux used off the shelf 
>>specially encapsulated cells from Sunpower.  Many of the components
>are 
>>off the shelf.  Since the vehicle has a small pack it is much cheaper 
>>to build. Much quicker to charge and it only takes 10 hours to charge 
>>on solar.  95% of the time a car is sitting.  With solar panels it can
>
>>sit in the sun. The weight of the solar panels is negligible.  Lots of
>
>>great things happen when you get light.  Lawrence Rhodes
>>-- next part --
>>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>URL: 
>><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160131/b7f8a621/attachment.htm>
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>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA 
>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA
>)
>>
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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Lee Hart via EV]

There are two ways to look at this problem: From an engineering point of 
view, and from a marketing/legal perspective.


From an engineering standpoint, there is no doubt that a safe 
high-performance 4-passenger EV could be built that's under 1000 lbs. 
Reducing the weight scales down the whole problem; so for a given 
performance level you can use a smaller motor and controller, fewer 
batteries, etc. That translates into less energy needed to move it, 
lower cost, and other benefits. It's what Amory Lovins called his 
"hypercar" concept. Lawrence is right; we have the technology and 
materials to do it. There have already been a number of interesting 
prototypes that are close enough to prove it's possible.


But, this is a disruptive approach that goes against the entire 
automotive industry. For a start, the auto companies only want to build 
what they have *always* built. They want to keep using all their 
existing plants, materials, parts, manufacturing methods, and 
technology. This is how they maximize profit, and keep out competitors.


They don't want to build EVs because it throws out all their ICE 
expertise (they'd lose their competitive advantage). They don't want to 
use composites because it obsoletes their massive investments in steel 
stamping plants. They hate risk and change, and so don't want to try 
anything different because it might not work and reduce profits.


Government regulations have all been written around the cars of the 
past. No change or improvement can be made without monumental 
foot-dragging, legal challenges, and lobbying by the auto industry. It's 
no accident that the regulations tend to be written to lock in the 
design of today's cars as "the way it must be done". A hyperlight car 
just isn't going to fit within the present-day safety standards.


Finally, the consumer market doesn't want a hypercar. They don't care 
about light weight or efficiency. In fact, they see weight as a 
*virtue*. The mass market wants cars that have all the latest 
fashionable toys and flourishes (LED dome light, another air bag, more 
cupholders, and styled to look like some more expensive car). But 
underneath, they want it to be exactly the same as it's always been.


Thus you can build a hypercar... but you can't sell it. It would only 
interest a tiny slice of the market. Due to the low production volumes, 
it would be very expensive. That leads to no customers... and so no 
business.


The only "crack" I can see for the light to get in is if it can be built 
and sold as a kit car. That could get around the regulatory requirements 
(a home builder can do things a car company can't). It also avoids the 
excessive cost, as the builder provides "factory" and the labor.

--
Knowledge is better than belief. Belief is when someone else does
your thinking.  -- anonymous
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Please look at the thickness of the doors, the specifications & that the car 
passed Dutch safety standards.  This is a real vehicle which though coming in 
second to the Japanese they won on points for comfort & space inside their 
vehicle.  If you look across the back seats you will see a roll cage and a 
strong carbon fiber bulkhead.  Lawrence Rhodes URL below


http://sinovoltaics.com/technology/stella-lux-winner-of-world-solar-challenge-visits-shanghai/


- Original Message -
From: Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com>
To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 7:14 AM
Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car. 

My statement and questions were more general.  I was curious about 
actually being able to build any 4 passenger (even 2 passenger) EV at 
1000 pounds, not particularly a solar one.  As David pointed out, to 
make a legally marketable EV it has to meet a lot of safety requirements 
and have at least some creature comforts, too.  That provides, indeed, a 
challenge to build something so light.

Peri


-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 31-Jan-16 1:30:57 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

>  Peri.  You didn't read the article.   Stella Lux used off the shelf 
>specially encapsulated cells from Sunpower.  Many of the components are 
>off the shelf.  Since the vehicle has a small pack it is much cheaper 
>to build. Much quicker to charge and it only takes 10 hours to charge 
>on solar.  95% of the time a car is sitting.  With solar panels it can 
>sit in the sun. The weight of the solar panels is negligible.  Lots of 
>great things happen when you get light.  Lawrence Rhodes
>-- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Here is a video interview of the first car.  Lawrence Rhodes


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3FPK0KNZuc


- Original Message -
From: Mike Nickerson <m...@nickersonranch.com>
To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car. 

I would really like to see a video of someone getting into and out of the car.  
It only stands 43 inches tall.  I suspect you would have to be very flexible.

Mike


On January 31, 2016 12:00:54 PM MST, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
wrote:
>Please look at the thickness of the doors, the specifications & that
>the car passed Dutch safety standards.  This is a real vehicle which
>though coming in second to the Japanese they won on points for comfort
>& space inside their vehicle.  If you look across the back seats you
>will see a roll cage and a strong carbon fiber bulkhead.  Lawrence
>Rhodes URL below
>
>
>http://sinovoltaics.com/technology/stella-lux-winner-of-world-solar-challenge-visits-shanghai/
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com>
>To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; "ev@lists.evdl.org"
><ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 7:14 AM
>Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car. 
>
>My statement and questions were more general.  I was curious about 
>actually being able to build any 4 passenger (even 2 passenger) EV at 
>1000 pounds, not particularly a solar one.  As David pointed out, to 
>make a legally marketable EV it has to meet a lot of safety
>requirements 
>and have at least some creature comforts, too.  That provides, indeed,
>a 
>challenge to build something so light.
>
>Peri
>
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
><ev@lists.evdl.org>
>Sent: 31-Jan-16 1:30:57 AM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.
>
>>  Peri.  You didn't read the article.   Stella Lux used off the shelf 
>>specially encapsulated cells from Sunpower.  Many of the components
>are 
>>off the shelf.  Since the vehicle has a small pack it is much cheaper 
>>to build. Much quicker to charge and it only takes 10 hours to charge 
>>on solar.  95% of the time a car is sitting.  With solar panels it can
>
>>sit in the sun. The weight of the solar panels is negligible.  Lots of
>
>>great things happen when you get light.  Lawrence Rhodes
>>-- next part --
>>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160131/b7f8a621/attachment.htm>
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>>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA 
>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA

>)
>>
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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 Peri.  You didn't read the article.   Stella Lux used off the shelf specially 
encapsulated cells from Sunpower.  Many of the components are off the shelf.  
Since the vehicle has a small pack it is much cheaper to build. Much quicker to 
charge and it only takes 10 hours to charge on solar.  95% of the time a car is 
sitting.  With solar panels it can sit in the sun. The weight of the solar 
panels is negligible.  Lots of great things happen when you get light.  
Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 30 Jan 2016 at 18:31, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> If you go light and I mean under 1000 pounds you can use less batteries .. 
> The challenge is to make it safe.  Racing has given the answer.  5 point
> harnesses and airbags. 

If you're homebrewing, or possibly designing a kit car EV, this is the way 
already shown by RQ Riley and others.  However, if you want to turn it into 
a mass market EV here in the States, that's a different story, and a trail 
that's already tripped up other would-be EV makers.  

The solar challenge is a subject in itself.  We've discussed that here many 
times in the past.  Even neglecting that, building an ultralight EV and 
getting it on the market is far from trivial. Just ask the Aptera folks.  

While IMO it's worth it to save lives, crashworthiness inevitably adds mass. 
It's going to be tough to keep the weight under 1000lb and still meet FMVSS. 
The Smart Fortwo qualifies, but as tiny as it is, it weighs over 1800lb.  
For comparison, my plain old (uncrashworthy) monocoque steel 1965 Opel 
Kadett A carried 2 more passengers handily, and weighed less than 1500lb.  

That's hardly the only reason that cars today have higher mass than 50 years 
ago. A lot of it has to do with features that American drivers expect today, 
such as air-con, big stereo systems, power everything, and lots of sound 
deadening materials, none of which my Kadett had.  

Don't forget that adding 4 average American adult passengers can easily add 
over 70% to the mass of your 1000lb EV.  

Composites would help some, but then you're into higher production costs and 
the resulting customer resistance to higher prices.   

So would making your EV a 2-place vehicle so that your passenger load drops 
to an average of 360lb.  But that puts another limit on your sales 
potential.  

I expect that a 5-point harness would be fine with most EVDLers, but show 
that to Jane and Joe Average and watch how they react.  If they even know 
what it is and how to use it, they'll think "how inconvenient," and "this 
car isn't safe," even if it is.  Now you have yet another sales impediment.  

You could negate most FMVSS problems by making it a trike, but that's one 
more sales strike against you, and a big one.  

I would never say it's impossible, but you'd have to rethink the funding and 
marketing process at least as much as you were rethinking the vehicle 
development process.  As long as you're trying to work within the 
traditional US automotive investment, development, sales, and legal 
liability model, IMO you're just dreaming.  

You'd have a better chance in Europe, I think.  There you might be able to 
qualify such a car as a heavy quadricycle, like the G-Wiz and some versions 
of the Renault Twizy.  That would let you dodge some of the safety 
regulations, at the cost of having to limit the motor power to 15kW.   

European attitudes and legal framework might also give you a better chance 
against liability to the families of people injured and killed by crashes in 
your car.   

I would guess that you'd have a somewhat better chance there at partial 
public funding for your EV's development.  That might change though, given 
recent political and economic trends in the EU.  

Finally, some EU nations might put a thumb on the price and running costs 
scale for you, with beneficial EV tax, licensing, and usage treatments that 
would go beyond anything you'll ever see here in the US.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Peri Hartman via EV]

My statement and questions were more general.  I was curious about 
actually being able to build any 4 passenger (even 2 passenger) EV at 
1000 pounds, not particularly a solar one.  As David pointed out, to 
make a legally marketable EV it has to meet a lot of safety requirements 
and have at least some creature comforts, too.  That provides, indeed, a 
challenge to build something so light.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>

Sent: 31-Jan-16 1:30:57 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

 Peri.  You didn't read the article.   Stella Lux used off the shelf 
specially encapsulated cells from Sunpower.  Many of the components are 
off the shelf.  Since the vehicle has a small pack it is much cheaper 
to build. Much quicker to charge and it only takes 10 hours to charge 
on solar.  95% of the time a car is sitting.  With solar panels it can 
sit in the sun. The weight of the solar panels is negligible.  Lots of 
great things happen when you get light.  Lawrence Rhodes

-- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Yes it would weigh 1500 but somehow the kids from Holland did it.  Not 
experienced engineers but students with mostly off the shelf parts.  Nothing 
too exotic except for the motors which are special.  But they wouldn't be 
special for long.  It's no mistake or accident that Tesla is sponsoring the 
Cruiser Class at the World Solar Challenge.  It's only a matter of time when we 
get cars you don't have to regularly plug in. Retractors?  We don't need no 
stinking retractors! Lawrence Rhodes



- Original Message -
From: Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com>
To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" <ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2016 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

Is it possible to build a 4 person car that weighs 1000 (or so) pounds?  
With trunk or other storage?  That would be a game changer.  (Of course, 
with 4 adults in it and some luggage it would weigh closer to 1500+ 
pounds.)

Also, can 5 point harnesses have retractors?

Peri


-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
<ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 30-Jan-16 10:31:03 AM
Subject: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

>I think there are many reasons to go for efficiency rather than brute 
>strength in electric vehicles.  If your vehicle is heavy you have to 
>have more batteries which are expensive.  If you go light and I mean 
>under 1000 pounds you can use less batteries.  A 15kw battery in a sub 
>1000 pound car with good aerodynamics can go over 300 miles.  With a 
>15kw battery you can charge very quickly with just a J1772 connector.  
>The advantages outweigh the disadvantages.  The challenge is to make it 
>safe.  Racing has given the answer.  5 point harnesses and airbags.  
>The Tesla Cruiser Class at the World Solar Challenge has shown the way. 
>  Technology gets better.  Now 5000 dollars worth of Sun Power solar 
>cells can do some good but not on my Leaf.  It would take 16 
>hours...maybe that isn't so badmaybe I could build a solar 
>trailer..h..
>
>
>
>http://sinovoltaics.com/technology/stella-lux-winner-of-world-solar-challenge-visits-shanghai/
> 
>  Seats 4 goes far.  Specifications in the article and it uses off the 
>shelf solar panels.  Maybe we could build one.  Lawrence Rhodes
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>
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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Solar cars make almost no sense (1% sense maybe).  Adds weight that has to
be carried everywhere, custom shapes and size cells cost TEN times more
than conventional home panels and there is 10 times more surface area on
the carport than on the car. 10% x 10% =1%

 Solar carports make 100% sense.  10 times the surface area, ten times
cheaper solar panels.  10 x 10 = 100 times better than putting them on the
car.  Been there... done that...

http://aprs.org/APRS-SPHEV.html


On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 1:37 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> Is it possible to build a 4 person car that weighs 1000 (or so) pounds?
> With trunk or other storage?  That would be a game changer.  (Of course,
> with 4 adults in it and some luggage it would weigh closer to 1500+ pounds.)
>
> Also, can 5 point harnesses have retractors?
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" <
> ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: 30-Jan-16 10:31:03 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.
>
> I think there are many reasons to go for efficiency rather than brute
>> strength in electric vehicles.  If your vehicle is heavy you have to have
>> more batteries which are expensive.  If you go light and I mean under 1000
>> pounds you can use less batteries.  A 15kw battery in a sub 1000 pound car
>> with good aerodynamics can go over 300 miles.  With a 15kw battery you can
>> charge very quickly with just a J1772 connector.  The advantages outweigh
>> the disadvantages.  The challenge is to make it safe.  Racing has given the
>> answer.  5 point harnesses and airbags.  The Tesla Cruiser Class at the
>> World Solar Challenge has shown the way.  Technology gets better.  Now 5000
>> dollars worth of Sun Power solar cells can do some good but not on my
>> Leaf.  It would take 16 hours...maybe that isn't so badmaybe I could
>> build a solar trailer..h..
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://sinovoltaics.com/technology/stella-lux-winner-of-world-solar-challenge-visits-shanghai/
>> Seats 4 goes far.  Specifications in the article and it uses off the shelf
>> solar panels.  Maybe we could build one.  Lawrence Rhodes
>> ___
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>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Is it possible to build a 4 person car that weighs 1000 (or so) pounds?  
With trunk or other storage?  That would be a game changer.  (Of course, 
with 4 adults in it and some luggage it would weigh closer to 1500+ 
pounds.)


Also, can 5 point harnesses have retractors?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" <ev@lists.evdl.org>; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
<ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org>

Sent: 30-Jan-16 10:31:03 AM
Subject: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

I think there are many reasons to go for efficiency rather than brute 
strength in electric vehicles.  If your vehicle is heavy you have to 
have more batteries which are expensive.  If you go light and I mean 
under 1000 pounds you can use less batteries.  A 15kw battery in a sub 
1000 pound car with good aerodynamics can go over 300 miles.  With a 
15kw battery you can charge very quickly with just a J1772 connector.  
The advantages outweigh the disadvantages.  The challenge is to make it 
safe.  Racing has given the answer.  5 point harnesses and airbags.  
The Tesla Cruiser Class at the World Solar Challenge has shown the way. 
 Technology gets better.  Now 5000 dollars worth of Sun Power solar 
cells can do some good but not on my Leaf.  It would take 16 
hours...maybe that isn't so badmaybe I could build a solar 
trailer..h..




http://sinovoltaics.com/technology/stella-lux-winner-of-world-solar-challenge-visits-shanghai/ 
 Seats 4 goes far.  Specifications in the article and it uses off the 
shelf solar panels.  Maybe we could build one.  Lawrence Rhodes

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[EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

I think there are many reasons to go for efficiency rather than brute strength 
in electric vehicles.  If your vehicle is heavy you have to have more batteries 
which are expensive.  If you go light and I mean under 1000 pounds you can use 
less batteries.  A 15kw battery in a sub 1000 pound car with good aerodynamics 
can go over 300 miles.  With a 15kw battery you can charge very quickly with 
just a J1772 connector.  The advantages outweigh the disadvantages.  The 
challenge is to make it safe.  Racing has given the answer.  5 point harnesses 
and airbags.  The Tesla Cruiser Class at the World Solar Challenge has shown 
the way.  Technology gets better.  Now 5000 dollars worth of Sun Power solar 
cells can do some good but not on my Leaf.  It would take 16 hours...maybe that 
isn't so badmaybe I could build a solar 
trailer..h.. 



http://sinovoltaics.com/technology/stella-lux-winner-of-world-solar-challenge-visits-shanghai/
  Seats 4 goes far.  Specifications in the article and it uses off the shelf 
solar panels.  Maybe we could build one.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] The reasons for a solar car.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 30 Jan 2016 at 18:31, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> If you go light and I mean under 1000 pounds you can use less batteries
> ..  The challenge is to make it safe.  Racing has given the answer.  5
> point harnesses and airbags. 

If you're homebrewing, or possibly designing a kit car EV, this is the way 
already shown by RQ Riley and others.  However, if you want to turn it into 
a mass market EV here in the States, that's a different story, and a trail 
that's already tripped up other would-be EV makers.
 
The solar challenge is a subject in itself.  We've discussed that here many 
times in the past.  Even neglecting that, building an ultralight EV and 
getting it on the market is far from trivial. Just ask the Aptera folks.

While IMO it's worth it to save lives, crashworthiness inevitably adds mass. 
It's going to be tough to keep the weight under 1000lb and still meet FMVSS. 
The Smart Fortwo qualifies, but as tiny as it is, it weighs over 1800lb.  
For comparison, my plain old (uncrashworthy) monocoque steel 1965 Opel 
Kadett A carried 2 more passengers handily, and weighed less than 1500lb.

That's hardly the only reason that cars today are so tubby. Once you start 
adding the goodies that American drivers expect today, such as air-con, big 
stereo systems, power everything, and lots of sound deadening materials - 
none of which my Kadett had - you're packing on still more pounds.  

Don't forget that adding 4 average American adult passengers can easily add 
over 70% to the mass of your 1000lb EV.

Composites would help some, but then you're into higher production costs and 
the resulting customer resistance to higher prices.  

So would making your EV a 2-place vehicle so that your passenger load drops 
to an average of 360lb.  But there's another limit on your sales potential.

I expect that a 5-point harness would be fine with most EVDLers, but show 
that to Jane and Joe Average and watch how they react.  If they even know 
what it is and how to use it, they'll think "how inconvenient," and "this 
car isn't safe," even if it is.  Now you have yet another sales impediment.

You could negate most FMVSS problems by making it a trike, but that's one 
more sales strike against you, and a big one.

I would never say it's impossible, but you'd have to rethink the funding and 
marketing process at least as much as you were rethinking the vehicle 
development process.  As long as you're trying to work within the 
traditional US automotive investment, development, sales, and legal 
liability model, IMO you're just dreaming.

You'd have a better chance in Europe, I think.  There you might be able to 
qualify such a car as a heavy quadricycle, like the G-Wiz and some versions 
of the Renault Twizy.  That would let you dodge some of the safety 
regulations, at the cost of having to limit the motor power to 15kW.  

European attitudes and legal framework might also give you a better chance 
against liability to the families of people injured and killed by crashes in 
your car.  

I would guess that you'd have a somewhat better chance there at partial 
public funding for your EV's development.  That might change though, given 
recent political and economic trends in the EU.

Finally, some EU nations might put a thumb on the price and running costs 
scale for you, with beneficial EV tax, licensing, and usage treatments that 
would go beyond anything you'll ever see here in the US.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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