Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Lee is right that small cars HAVE had some modest success in the US, mostly 
for non-US manufacturers.  

I think the problem is that US automakers just don't want to bother with 
modest success.

Maybe it's not entirely that they don't want to, but also that they can't.  
In recent decades we've seen large institutional stockholders demanding ever 
larger short-term returns.  If the execs deliver them, they're rewarded with 
eye-watering salaries, bonuses, and stock options.  If they don't, they're 
shown the door.

That's an incentive to forget next year, let alone next decade, and focus on 
the highest possible profits for this quarter.  Hence bigger vehicles, which 
yield bigger profits.

Willie wonders why that's so.  I'm not an insider, but I think it's because 
a lot of the cost of building vehicles is labor, and it doesn't take much if 
any less labor to build a small car than a large one. But buyers perceive 
more value in a large vehicle, so large vehicles can be priced higher 
relative to production cost.

I might add parenthetically that I think one reason that Detroit is so hot 
for pickup trucks is that "new" models are even cheaper than cars to 
develop. Pickups haven't fundamentally changed since Ford added independent 
front suspension in 1965, so there's no significant engineering. Tweak the 
sheet metal a little; make new grille and taillight molds; raise the 
suspension another 2"; add more exhaust rumble, big phallic tailpipes, and 
some chrome trim; et voila - a "new" pickup with a 10% higher price.

The world event that turbocharged US small-car sales was the 1974 Mideast 
oil embargo.  It caught GM, Ford, and Chrysler flat-footed.  They had square 
miles of lots filled with 13mpg bloatmobiles, and no small efficient cars 
that anyone wanted to buy.  (Can you say "Ford Pinto" and "Chevy Vega"?)

Toyota and Nissan stepped in with 28mpg cars (1974 Nissan billboard: "Datsun 
saves - about a gallon a day") and the US discovered how GOOD Japanese 
vehicles were.  GM/Ford/Chrysler lost market share and positioning that they 
never fully recovered.

Today it might be corporate attitude or their stockholders, but whatever it 
is, GM, Ford, and Fiat/Chrysler just don't seem to give a hoot about EVs.  
Look here and tell me if you see them anywhere:

https://carsalesbase.com/european-sales-2020-q1-ev-phev/

(In case you don't know, GM sold Opel to the French PSA Group in 2017.)

I can't say for sure that we'll have an EV-boosting equivalent of the 1974 
oil embargo, or when, though I'm pretty sure the world's oil supply isn't 
infinite. 

But if and when something like that does happen, the big three (and maybe 
Toyota too this time) are going to get blindsided again.

That's when Tesla will become the #1 US automaker, provided that they have a 
nice range of EVs that the world still wants, and haven't sold out, moved to 
China, or been sued into oblivion.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I agree completely, but thought that it was the opposite of shaming. They just 
thought that they were missing out on the new craze.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Jul 25, 2020, at 1:48 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 7/25/20 11:02 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>> 
>> Sure.  Small cars don't sell well here.  They never have.  it's cultural.
>> America is the land of the supersized.
> 
> It wasn't foreordained.  I see several factors that has led us, as a country, 
> astray.
> 
> 1) At the top of the list is cheap oil.  Cheap gasoline and diesel. Almost 
> certainly, a result of government policy.
> 
> 2) Legacy auto makers have not wanted to make or sell small cars.  Auto 
> makers make more profit on large cars than on small.  I can not offer a 
> reason that that is so.
> 
> 3) Very effective advertising targeted at a not very discriminating audience. 
>  Many accept advertising premises without logical scrutiny. "Bigger is 
> better".  "This year's model is an improvement over last year's because it is 
> bigger".  Have you ever seen advertising such as: "This year's model is 
> better because it is more efficient (or smaller, or lighter)"?
> 
> 4) A relatively poorly educated populace.  Most college graduates have not 
> had a physics course.  They don't understand energy flows in vehicle 
> operation.  Of course, the poor education also ties into 3).  Critical 
> thinking is relatively rare.
> 
> But, I agree small cars are currently a hard sell in the USA.  Refusing to 
> advertise is only one of Tesla's admirable policies.
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

So, those are such great cars that sell well - why aren't they being sold in
the US? Could it possibly be because the demand for small cars isn't there?


Sure.  Small cars don't sell well here.  They never have.  it's cultural.
America is the land of the supersized.


I wouldn't go that far. Toyota, Honda, VW, Hyundai etc. have all sold a 
lot of small cars in the USA, and made lots of money doing it. The US 
automaker have just not been as successful doing it. They make more 
money selling big vehicles. So, they've used their marketing savvy to 
convince people that "You don't want some little econobox; you want a 
big huge truck or SUV."



There's a lot of world and a lot of EV demand outside of North America.
Tesla had better hop to it.  Otherwiase the big guys are going to leave them
nothing but some bread crumbs and a few celery sticks.


Right. So far, Tesla has only been aiming for the US luxury market. Just 
as GM, Ford, and Chrysler left the small car market wide-open for 
Toyota, Honda, and VW in the past; Tesla is leaving the small car market 
wide open for the Chinese or whoever the next big economy car maker will 
be in the future.


Lee Hart

--
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 - something to do
 - something to look forward to
 - someone to love
 - someone to take good care of
 - and misbehave, just a little
 --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Willie via EV]

On 7/25/20 11:02 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:


Sure.  Small cars don't sell well here.  They never have.  it's cultural.
America is the land of the supersized.


It wasn't foreordained.  I see several factors that has led us, as a 
country, astray.


1) At the top of the list is cheap oil.  Cheap gasoline and diesel. 
Almost certainly, a result of government policy.


2) Legacy auto makers have not wanted to make or sell small cars.  Auto 
makers make more profit on large cars than on small.  I can not offer a 
reason that that is so.


3) Very effective advertising targeted at a not very discriminating 
audience.  Many accept advertising premises without logical scrutiny. 
"Bigger is better".  "This year's model is an improvement over last 
year's because it is bigger".  Have you ever seen advertising such as: 
"This year's model is better because it is more efficient (or smaller, 
or lighter)"?


4) A relatively poorly educated populace.  Most college graduates have 
not had a physics course.  They don't understand energy flows in vehicle 
operation.  Of course, the poor education also ties into 3).  Critical 
thinking is relatively rare.


But, I agree small cars are currently a hard sell in the USA.  Refusing 
to advertise is only one of Tesla's admirable policies.



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 25 Jul 2020 at 7:52, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

> So, those are such great cars that sell well - why aren't they being sold in
> the US? Could it possibly be because the demand for small cars isn't there?

Sure.  Small cars don't sell well here.  They never have.  it's cultural. 
America is the land of the supersized.

I'm not saying Tesla's strategy was wrong, just that they're already pretty 
late to the small-affordable-EV table.  

There's a lot of world and a lot of EV demand outside of North America.  
Tesla had better hop to it.  Otherwiase the big guys are going to leave them 
nothing but some bread crumbs and a few celery sticks.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 a trilogy of Chinese curses that continues "May you come to the 
 attention of those in authority," and finishes with "May the 
 gods give you everything you ask for."  I have no idea about 
 its authenticity.  

-- Terry Pratchett 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

OEMs were never “shamed” into bringing EVs into U.S.. Regulations, and
the cost of NOT doing so did it.


Willie via EV wrote:> Well, "the cost of NOT doing so" is, at least in 
part, from the threat

of losing their ICE market.  That, due to Tesla success in developing
the EV market.  I would consider that "shamed" into getting into the USA
EV market.


I certainly saw the shaming in the automotive press. Before Tesla, EVs 
were considered slow, boring "golf carts". Totally uncool! The auto 
magazines made fun of them. Pundits said EVs could never sell, never 
make money without mandates.


Then along comes Tesla. They proved the critics wrong. "EVs are fast! 
EVs are fun! EVs have cool features that no ICE has! I want one!" They 
were beating the ICEs at their own game, and taking the top ratings in 
reviews.


The auto companies certainly felt it. And they reacted to it. They feel 
they are losing business to Tesla. They have to get "back in the game", 
and produce really good EVs... or Tesla is going to walk all over them.


Lee Hart
--
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
 - something to do
 - something to look forward to
 - someone to love
 - someone to take good care of
 - and misbehave, just a little
 --
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

By the cost of NOT doing so, I didn’t mean their ICE market. I meant cost of 
credits, costs of non-compliance.

One important thing Tesla did (among a long and great list) was provide a 
barrier to regulatory backsliding.  They also showed that there could be great 
demand for great EVs, and ultimately that they could have the cool factor.

No “shame factor” in there IMO.

No op-Ed’s targeting them, no campaigns excoriating them - not on the country’s 
radar at all.

You want “shame factor”? VW diesel.


- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Jul 25, 2020, at 10:04 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 7/25/20 5:19 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> OEMs were never “shamed” into bringing EVs into U.S.. Regulations, and the 
>> cost of NOT doing so did it.
> 
> Well, "the cost of NOT doing so" is, at least in part, from the threat of 
> losing their ICE market.  That, due to Tesla success in developing the EV 
> market.  I would consider that "shamed" into getting into the USA EV market.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Willie via EV]

On 7/25/20 5:19 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

OEMs were never “shamed” into bringing EVs into U.S.. Regulations, and the cost 
of NOT doing so did it.


Well, "the cost of NOT doing so" is, at least in part, from the threat 
of losing their ICE market.  That, due to Tesla success in developing 
the EV market.  I would consider that "shamed" into getting into the USA 
EV market.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Willie via EV]

On 7/25/20 5:19 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

OEMs were never “shamed” into bringing EVs into U.S.. Regulations, and the cost 
of NOT doing so did it.


Well, "the cost of NOT doing so" is, at least in part, from the threat 
of losing their ICE market.  That, due to Tesla success in developing 
the EV market.  I would consider that "shamed" into getting into the USA 
EV market.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

OEMs were never “shamed” into bringing EVs into U.S.. Regulations, and the cost 
of NOT doing so did it.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Jul 24, 2020, at 9:46 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> From: Peri Hartman
>> I want a cheaper Tesla, too. But I think Willie is right. If Tesla had 
>> tried to make a cheap model sooner, they would have only sold a trickle. 
>> That's not a good way for a startup to survive. Selling into to the 
>> masses will be a low profit cut throat market. I think that time is 
>> coming for Tesla, but not here yet. Little room for mistakes, high 
>> volume required, and ICE functionality.
>> 
>> The last raises eye brows, I know. But you aren't going to change the 
>> public attitude.
> 
> I feel much the same way. Tesla had enough money that they *could* have 
> produced an inexpensive EV first; and maybe even sell a lot of them. But they 
> wouldn't have made money; and worse, they wouldn't have been able to attract 
> investors. Without investors, I doubt they could have run the company at a 
> loss for long enough to become profitable.
> 
> And, though I'd like to see it happen faster, Tesla is slowly getting the 
> prices down and producing cheaper EVs.
> 
> So, I wish them all the luck in the world. They deserve it; and more 
> importantly, it's likely the automakers wouldn't be offering EVs in the US if 
> Tesla hadn't shamed them into it!
> 
> Lee Hart
> 
> 
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Sat Jul 25 02:22:46 PDT 2020 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>In the meantime, Renault and VW haven't sat on their hands.  The updated Zoe
>and the upcoming VW ID.3 are competent and attractive EVs with plenty of
>range.  The Zoe offers 80% of the Model 3 LR's range at 43% of its EU price -
>29% of it if you're willing to lease the battery!  And it fits in more of
>the tiny European garages and parking spaces than the Tesla does.

So, those are such great cars that sell well - why aren't they being sold in 
the US?
Could it possibly be because the demand for small cars isn't there?


--

Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Sat Jul 25 05:34:18 PDT 2020 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>> How much of a dealer discount below MSRP did you get on your Tesla? :-)

You do realize that MSRP is an imaginary number that has no basis in reality?  
It's chosen to let the Dealers show you what a great deal they are giving you.


--

Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Willie via EV]

On 7/24/20 7:37 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:



How much of a dealer discount below MSRP did you get on your Tesla? :-)


MANY, including me, consider the Tesla direct sales model to be an 
enormous improvement over the franchised dealer model where MSRPs are 
meaningless.


Tesla DOES offer incentives but only on models/stock they need to move. 
At this time, that does not include the low profit and high demand models.


For those who haven't much shopped Teslas, the incentives have been 
greatest near the end of the quarters when Tesla is trying to pump up 
sales/deliveries.  Incentives include discounts on in stock models and 
demos.  As well as numerous other strategies.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Lee Hart via EV]

From: Peri Hartman
>I want a cheaper Tesla, too. But I think Willie is right. If Tesla had 
>tried to make a cheap model sooner, they would have only sold a trickle. 
>That's not a good way for a startup to survive. Selling into to the 
>masses will be a low profit cut throat market. I think that time is 
>coming for Tesla, but not here yet. Little room for mistakes, high 
>volume required, and ICE functionality.
>
>The last raises eye brows, I know. But you aren't going to change the 
>public attitude.

I feel much the same way. Tesla had enough money that they *could* have 
produced an inexpensive EV first; and maybe even sell a lot of them. But they 
wouldn't have made money; and worse, they wouldn't have been able to attract 
investors. Without investors, I doubt they could have run the company at a loss 
for long enough to become profitable.

And, though I'd like to see it happen faster, Tesla is slowly getting the 
prices down and producing cheaper EVs.

So, I wish them all the luck in the world. They deserve it; and more 
importantly, it's likely the automakers wouldn't be offering EVs in the US if 
Tesla hadn't shamed them into it!

Lee Hart


--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I want a cheaper Tesla, too. But I think Willie is right. If Tesla had 
tried to make a cheap model sooner, they would have only sold a trickle. 
That's not a good way for a startup to survive. Selling into to the 
masses will be a low profit cut throat market. I think that time is 
coming for Tesla, but not here yet. Little room for mistakes, high 
volume required, and ICE functionality.


The last raises eye brows, I know. But you aren't going to change the 
public attitude.


Peri

<< Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ? 
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 24-Jul-20 8:18:55 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi


On 24 Jul 2020 at 12:39, Willie via EV wrote:


 I continue to be amused


Says the guy who, if I'm not mistake, has multiple Teslas.  :-\

Lots of us can't even afford ONE Tesla, and we are not so amused.  So it's
heartening to read that Tesla is finally getting on track to an affordable
EV, though personally I'd rather they made it somewhere other than Xi
Jinping's China.

However, if they're going to play to that market, they have some catching up
to do.  Volkswagen is forging Chinese automaker partnerships so fast I can
barely follow them - FAW, SAIC, JAC.  They're still building Chinese
factories, but even from their German factories, the ID.3 is well ahead of
the Tesla 3 in affordability. When they get the VW/JAC Sol E20X (under
US$20k, 50kWh battery, 400km range) in production in China, they'll be hard
to beat.

For now, Renault is the outside automaker arguably out in front in China
with the K-ZE already on the road there (under US$10k, 27kWh battery, 250km
range).  Renault also has a significant advantage in being allowed to use
their own name in China.

A tarted-up version of the K-ZE will reach Europe in about a year, to be
sold as the Dacia Spring.  The Renault Zoe was Europe's #1 selling EV in
2020-H1.  Renault has a shot at owning the low end too, if they give the
Spring enough range and price it aggressively.  But I'm afraid that they'll
hobble it, so it doesn't steal sales from Zoe.

Either way, it appears to me that some of the traditional automakers are
already several meters ahead of Tesla in the cheap and cheerful Chinese EV
race.

If Tesla stumbles, the big guys have a good shot at lapping them in Asia and
Europe, where the future of EVs lies.  Owning the US EV market won't be much
of a consolation prize for Tesla, with our economy sliding into the
dumpster.

I hope they nail it.  I'll be watching for a $25k Tesla.  I'm not so sure
I'd actually buy one, not that anyone cares, but I mIght be amused. :-)

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 24 Jul 2020 at 18:34, paul dove via EV wrote:

> .It has a 54KWh battery. What's the Leaf have? 24... 30 at any rate

Leaf hasn't been that feeble in quite a while.  It's 62kWh (226mi EPA) in 
the Plus version ($40k), 40kWh (149mi EPA) in the base version ($31.6k).  
>From what I read online, those prices are routinely discounted at dealers.

The Leaf's sleeker European sister, Renault Zoe, has a 52kWh battery and a 
base MSRP of around 32k euros (~9k less if you lease the battery).  WLTP 
range 400+km. At least in France, it's usually dealer-discounted to around 
25k euros ($28.5k) or less.  

How much of a dealer discount below MSRP did you get on your Tesla? :-)

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 24 Jul 2020 at 12:39, Willie via EV wrote:

> I continue to be amused 

Says the guy who, if I'm not mistake, has multiple Teslas.  :-\

Lots of us can't even afford ONE Tesla, and we are not so amused.  So it's 
heartening to read that Tesla is finally getting on track to an affordable 
EV, though personally I'd rather they made it somewhere other than Xi 
Jinping's China.

However, if they're going to play to that market, they have some catching up 
to do.  Volkswagen is forging Chinese automaker partnerships so fast I can 
barely follow them - FAW, SAIC, JAC.  They're still building Chinese 
factories, but even from their German factories, the ID.3 is well ahead of 
the Tesla 3 in affordability. When they get the VW/JAC Sol E20X (under 
US$20k, 50kWh battery, 400km range) in production in China, they'll be hard 
to beat. 

For now, Renault is the outside automaker arguably out in front in China 
with the K-ZE already on the road there (under US$10k, 27kWh battery, 250km 
range).  Renault also has a significant advantage in being allowed to use 
their own name in China.  

A tarted-up version of the K-ZE will reach Europe in about a year, to be 
sold as the Dacia Spring.  The Renault Zoe was Europe's #1 selling EV in 
2020-H1.  Renault has a shot at owning the low end too, if they give the 
Spring enough range and price it aggressively.  But I'm afraid that they'll 
hobble it, so it doesn't steal sales from Zoe.

Either way, it appears to me that some of the traditional automakers are 
already several meters ahead of Tesla in the cheap and cheerful Chinese EV 
race.  

If Tesla stumbles, the big guys have a good shot at lapping them in Asia and 
Europe, where the future of EVs lies.  Owning the US EV market won't be much 
of a consolation prize for Tesla, with our economy sliding into the 
dumpster. 

I hope they nail it.  I'll be watching for a $25k Tesla.  I'm not so sure 
I'd actually buy one, not that anyone cares, but I mIght be amused. :-)

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[paul dove via EV]

 That is not the least of what is wrong with there overpriced Tesla theories.It 
has a 54KWh battery. What's the Leaf have? 24... 30 at any rate Tesla chose to 
compete with ICE specs.Better choice.

On Friday, July 24, 2020, 12:39:53 PM CDT, Willie via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 

On 7/21/20 3:11 PM, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote:
> We bought our Tesla Model 3 for $35,000. It was ordered on March 30, 2016
> and received on May, 2019.

I haven't before seen testimony that anyone had actually purchased a 
$35k Tesla.  Thanks for confirming.

I continue to be amused by those here that think Tesla should suicide by 
early chasing of the low end and low margin segment of the market.  I am 
thankful that Tesla chose to survive.  It is all obvious and previously 
stated, but this is a clear statement of Tesla's path, past and future:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-compact-van-ice-extinction/
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Willie via EV]

On 7/21/20 3:11 PM, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote:

We bought our Tesla Model 3 for $35,000. It was ordered on March 30, 2016
and received on May, 2019.


I haven't before seen testimony that anyone had actually purchased a 
$35k Tesla.  Thanks for confirming.


I continue to be amused by those here that think Tesla should suicide by 
early chasing of the low end and low margin segment of the market.  I am 
thankful that Tesla chose to survive.  It is all obvious and previously 
stated, but this is a clear statement of Tesla's path, past and future:


https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-compact-van-ice-extinction/
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[paul dove via EV]

 Hmmm.
This is just physics. I worked on chargers and charging software.
Most LiIon charge algorithms usw CC/CV where in the beginning the current is 
set to the maximum the battery can handle.
When the maximum voltage is reached the control changes to constant voltage 
mode where the current is lowered to maintain the voltage.
You can set a power supply to constant voltage and hook it up to a li Ion 
battery and it will behave the same way.
Nothing special except where you set the CV limit too.

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 7:32:44 PM CDT, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 The positive electrode becomes very reactive at near fully charged and this
damages the electrolyte. As mentioned charging the last bit is a slow
process. So Tesla limits the charging to extend battery life and to make
charging to "100%" faster.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 5:23 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV 
wrote:

> Are you sure about that?  Rapid Charging LiIon typically slows down as you
> near full charge.
>
> July 22, 2020 9:41 AM, "Willie via EV"  wrote:
>
> > On 7/22/20 12:21 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed Jul 22 08:33:19 PDT 2020 dov...@bellsouth.net said:
> >>> At any rate Tesla doesn't let you use the whole battery anyway even at
> 100% charged it is not
> >>> because they gave people temporary range increases during the Florida
> Hurricane.
> >>
> >> Did they need to do more charging to get that extra range? or if their
> car was already fully
> >> charged, did it just have extra range?
> >> The former means the reduced range is the bottom of the pack, the
> latter means it's the top.
> >
> > I haven't used a car with a software limited battery but, as I
> > understand, the battery is just not allowed to fully charge.  One
> > benefit, observed and reported by many, is that SuperCharging goes MUCH
> > faster near the top.  With a not limited battery, one rarely has the
> > patience to fully charge at a SuperCharger because it tapers to just a
> > few kw near the top.  A second touted benefit of limited batteries is
> > that they have longer life.
> >
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Lee Hart via EV]

Michael Ross via EV wrote:

I always thought they took the buffer from both the high and low ends of
SOC%. You don't want to totally deplete or charge a pack to get the longest
life from it.


I agree. We know that cells are damaged by either over-charging or 
under-charging. We also know that they are never perfectly matched or 
balanced. So the sensible thing to do is use only the "middle" range, 
like 20-80%, or 10-90% SOC (depending on how conservative you want to be).


Lee Hart

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Michael Ross via EV]

I always thought they took the buffer from both the high and low ends of
SOC%. You don't want to totally deplete or charge a pack to get the longest
life from it.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 10:43 PM Bobby Keeland via EV 
wrote:

> It is interesting. I never thought about whether Tesla took the software
> limited part of the charge from the top or the bottom of the battery pack.
> I'm sure glad that I normally charge to only 85% and rarely take the
> battery pack below 30%.
> BobK
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 11:58 AM Willie via EV  wrote:
>
> >
> > On 7/22/20 12:21 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> > > On Wed Jul 22 08:33:19 PDT 2020 dov...@bellsouth.net said:
> > >> At any rate Tesla doesn't let you use the whole battery anyway even at
> > 100% charged it is not because they gave people temporary range increases
> > during the Florida Hurricane.
> > > Did they need to do more charging to get that extra range?  or if their
> > car was already fully charged, did it just have extra range?
> > > The former means the reduced range is the bottom of the pack, the
> latter
> > means it's the top.
> >
> > I haven't used a car with a software limited battery but, as I
> > understand, the battery is just not allowed to fully charge.  One
> > benefit, observed and reported by many, is that SuperCharging goes MUCH
> > faster near the top.  With a not limited battery, one rarely has the
> > patience to fully charge at a SuperCharger because it tapers to just a
> > few kw near the top.  A second touted benefit of limited batteries is
> > that they have longer life.
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Michael Ross via EV]

The positive electrode becomes very reactive at near fully charged and this
damages the electrolyte. As mentioned charging the last bit is a slow
process. So Tesla limits the charging to extend battery life and to make
charging to "100%" faster.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 5:23 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV 
wrote:

> Are you sure about that?  Rapid Charging LiIon typically slows down as you
> near full charge.
>
> July 22, 2020 9:41 AM, "Willie via EV"  wrote:
>
> > On 7/22/20 12:21 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed Jul 22 08:33:19 PDT 2020 dov...@bellsouth.net said:
> >>> At any rate Tesla doesn't let you use the whole battery anyway even at
> 100% charged it is not
> >>> because they gave people temporary range increases during the Florida
> Hurricane.
> >>
> >> Did they need to do more charging to get that extra range? or if their
> car was already fully
> >> charged, did it just have extra range?
> >> The former means the reduced range is the bottom of the pack, the
> latter means it's the top.
> >
> > I haven't used a car with a software limited battery but, as I
> > understand, the battery is just not allowed to fully charge.  One
> > benefit, observed and reported by many, is that SuperCharging goes MUCH
> > faster near the top.  With a not limited battery, one rarely has the
> > patience to fully charge at a SuperCharger because it tapers to just a
> > few kw near the top.  A second touted benefit of limited batteries is
> > that they have longer life.
> >
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

Are you sure about that?  Rapid Charging LiIon typically slows down as you near 
full charge.

July 22, 2020 9:41 AM, "Willie via EV"  wrote:

> On 7/22/20 12:21 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> 
>> On Wed Jul 22 08:33:19 PDT 2020 dov...@bellsouth.net said:
>>> At any rate Tesla doesn't let you use the whole battery anyway even at 100% 
>>> charged it is not
>>> because they gave people temporary range increases during the Florida 
>>> Hurricane.
>> 
>> Did they need to do more charging to get that extra range? or if their car 
>> was already fully
>> charged, did it just have extra range?
>> The former means the reduced range is the bottom of the pack, the latter 
>> means it's the top.
> 
> I haven't used a car with a software limited battery but, as I
> understand, the battery is just not allowed to fully charge.  One
> benefit, observed and reported by many, is that SuperCharging goes MUCH
> faster near the top.  With a not limited battery, one rarely has the
> patience to fully charge at a SuperCharger because it tapers to just a
> few kw near the top.  A second touted benefit of limited batteries is
> that they have longer life.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[paul dove via EV]

 Not likely, doesn't make any sense considering they recommend not charging all 
the way and it's know this does the most damage.
Their app lets you set to Charge percent so makes sense the software would 
limit the top voltage.
At any rate Tesla doesn't let you use the whole battery anyway even at 100% 
charged it is not because they gave people temporary range increases during the 
Florida Hurricane.
I believe some of the guys on the Tesla Forum know. The ones that monitor cell 
voltages. 

On Tuesday, July 21, 2020, 10:29:35 PM CDT, John Lussmyer via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On Tue Jul 21 20:12:13 PDT 2020 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>outlet and did not charge us anything. We are quite satisfied with our 220
>mile range battery. Because the battery pack actually has a range of 240
>miles, but is software limited we never have charged it to 100%.

Depends.  If Tesla is limiting you to the top 220 miles, or the bottom 220 
miles.
Charging to 100% might actually BE charging to 100%, and they just aren't 
letting you discharge all the way.



--

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Bobby Keeland via EV]

It is interesting. I never thought about whether Tesla took the software
limited part of the charge from the top or the bottom of the battery pack.
I'm sure glad that I normally charge to only 85% and rarely take the
battery pack below 30%.
BobK

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 11:58 AM Willie via EV  wrote:

>
> On 7/22/20 12:21 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> > On Wed Jul 22 08:33:19 PDT 2020 dov...@bellsouth.net said:
> >> At any rate Tesla doesn't let you use the whole battery anyway even at
> 100% charged it is not because they gave people temporary range increases
> during the Florida Hurricane.
> > Did they need to do more charging to get that extra range?  or if their
> car was already fully charged, did it just have extra range?
> > The former means the reduced range is the bottom of the pack, the latter
> means it's the top.
>
> I haven't used a car with a software limited battery but, as I
> understand, the battery is just not allowed to fully charge.  One
> benefit, observed and reported by many, is that SuperCharging goes MUCH
> faster near the top.  With a not limited battery, one rarely has the
> patience to fully charge at a SuperCharger because it tapers to just a
> few kw near the top.  A second touted benefit of limited batteries is
> that they have longer life.
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Willie via EV]

On 7/22/20 12:21 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

On Wed Jul 22 08:33:19 PDT 2020 dov...@bellsouth.net said:

At any rate Tesla doesn't let you use the whole battery anyway even at 100% 
charged it is not because they gave people temporary range increases during the 
Florida Hurricane.

Did they need to do more charging to get that extra range?  or if their car was 
already fully charged, did it just have extra range?
The former means the reduced range is the bottom of the pack, the latter means 
it's the top.


I haven't used a car with a software limited battery but, as I 
understand, the battery is just not allowed to fully charge.  One 
benefit, observed and reported by many, is that SuperCharging goes MUCH 
faster near the top.  With a not limited battery, one rarely has the 
patience to fully charge at a SuperCharger because it tapers to just a 
few kw near the top.  A second touted benefit of limited batteries is 
that they have longer life.




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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Wed Jul 22 08:33:19 PDT 2020 dov...@bellsouth.net said:
>At any rate Tesla doesn't let you use the whole battery anyway even at 100% 
>charged it is not because they gave people temporary range increases during 
>the Florida Hurricane.

Did they need to do more charging to get that extra range?  or if their car was 
already fully charged, did it just have extra range?
The former means the reduced range is the bottom of the pack, the latter means 
it's the top.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

It's longer on the outside, but roughly the same on the inside (which is where 
it counts).  Well actually, the Bolt has about 15% MORE cargo volume than the 
Ariya.

The low end Model 3 has roughly the same range as the base model Ariya, despite 
having a battery pack that is 9kwh smaller(at least according the the specs 
released by nissan).

Other than the looks (which I admit, I like the looks of the Ariya) it doesn't 
really seem to have anything to offer that isn't already available.

July 21, 2020 10:33 AM, "EVDL Administrator via EV"  wrote:

> On 21 Jul 2020 at 6:05, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote:
> 
>> Only it's pretty much exactly the same size as a Chevy Bolt or a Hyundai 
>> Kona,
>> or a Tesla Model 3 for that matter. It costs the same or slightly more than
>> those.
> 
> Actually at about 182" long (my gauge of how easy a car is to park) it's
> quite a bit larger, and no doubt heavier, than either the Bolt or Kona.
> It's a full foot and a half longer!
> 
> It's about 3" shorter than the Tesla 3.
> 
> As for price, at an estimated $40k it's in the same general range but it's a
> somewhat wide range.
> 
> The Bolt starts at $36,620 (8.5% less) and the Kona is $37,190, and remember
> these are much smaller cars. Most buyers tend to perceive "larger" as
> "worth more."
> 
> Despite what I've read many times here about a mid-30k Model 3, Edmunds list
> the cheapest model at $44k, so it's 10% more expensive. It's probably a
> better value, as long as a mid-size sedan suits your needs.
> 
> I still say we don't need more big, clunky, heavy $40k EVs, we need more
> agile little $25k ones.
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> I have three rules to live by. One, get your work done. If that
> doesn't work, shut up and drink your gin. And when all else fails,
> run like hell.
> 
> -- Ray Bradbury
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Tue Jul 21 20:12:13 PDT 2020 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>outlet and did not charge us anything. We are quite satisfied with our 220
>mile range battery. Because the battery pack actually has a range of 240
>miles, but is software limited we never have charged it to 100%.

Depends.  If Tesla is limiting you to the top 220 miles, or the bottom 220 
miles.
Charging to 100% might actually BE charging to 100%, and they just aren't 
letting you discharge all the way.



--

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Bobby Keeland via EV]

We ordered a standard range battery and black exterior paint. Any other
paint color was an additional $1,000. What we received was a standard range
plus that had an additional 20 miles of range. In addition we had autopilot
and a premium audio system. After a few months Tesla sent a message to me
stating that if I wanted to keep standard range plus, autopilot and premium
radio then we should pay an additional $4,500. We did not pay the extra
Money and at the end of that month all of the "extra" stuff went away.
We charge at home and 220 miles of range is just fine. On longer trips to
New Orleans we stop at a supercharger in Baton Rouge. On trips to Houston
we stop at superchargers in Lake Charles, Louisiana and Channelview, Texas,
both on the way to Houston and again on the way back. I have used the
navigation tool on the flat screen to plot trips to Wimberley, Texas (just
SW of Austin), Springfield, Missouri, Alden, Michigan (north of Traverse
City) and Seattle, Washington. With standard range we can use superchargers
for all of those trips except perhaps the one to Springfield, Missouri. For
the trip to Springfield there is a destination supercharger that we may be
able to use. If not then we can use the Plug Share app on my phone to use a
slower charger in Branson, Missouri.
At one time we did stop at the Acadiana Nature Center (Lafayette,
Louisiana) where they have RV sites. We could not charge at home because
the electricity was out at home. I asked the guy who was working at the
Nature Center if we could rent s 50 circuit to recharge our battery powered
electric car. He had never heard about anyone doing that, but sent to a 50
outlet and did not charge us anything. We are quite satisfied with our 220
mile range battery. Because the battery pack actually has a range of 240
miles, but is software limited we never have charged it to 100%.
Bob Keeland & Joy Young

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020, 3:39 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 21 Jul 2020 at 15:11, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote:
>
> > We bought our Tesla Model 3 for $35,000. It was ordered on March 30,
> 2016 and
> > received on May, 2019.
>
> Interesting!  That's a much more reasonable price, and a decent value for
> anyone who's OK with a mid-size sedan.
>
> What's your range, if you don't mine me asking?
>
> Looking again, I see that Edmunds have the "mid range" model as the $44k
> one.  So presumably there's a "short range" model too that they don't list.
>
> But it also says that the 44k one is discontinued!  So according to that
> page only the "long range AWD" and "performance AWD" models at $47,990 and
> $56,990 respectively are still available.  To me that seems like a a
> mightly
> long haul from an affordable car.
>
> https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2019/features-specs/
>
> Something strange is going on here ...
>
> I clicked on "See Model 3 inventory" and saw only used ones.  The cheapest
> is a 2019 "standard range plus" (whatever that means) with 24k+ miles.
> They're asking $34,980!  Ehhh, no thanks.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in
> common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts. They
> alter the facts to fit their views.  This can be uncomfortable
> if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering.
>
>  -- Doctor Who, "The Face of Evil"
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Bobby Keeland via EV]

We ordered a standard range battery and black exterior paint. The long
range battery pack was $9,000 extra and any other paint color was an
additional $1,000. What we received was a standard range plus that had an
additional 20 miles of range. In addition we had autopilot and a premium
audio system. After a few months Tesla sent a message to me stating that if
I wanted to keep standard range plus, autopilot and premium radio then we
should pay an additional $4,500. We did not pay the extra money and all of
the extra stuff disappeared. Now I realize that the battery pack in our M3
is a bit bigger than a real standard range even though we software limited
from using that extra range. If I charge the battery pack to 100% I am
really only charging the pack to 91.6%. I charge the battery pack to 85% so
I think/hope that the battery pack will last longer than I do. At 67 years
old I really don't need a million mile battery. I am however happy that
they are working on a battery that will last many years before needing to
be replaced. My grandkids really like the Tesla. As our grandson was
driving the M3 you could certainly see the Tesla Smile.
Standard range (220 miles) is fine for us. We charge at home 99% of the
time. New Orleans does not have a supercharger (SC) so when we go there we
stop at the SC in Baton Rouge to charge close to 100%. On the way home we
again charge at the SC in Baton Rouge. For a trip to Houston, Texas we stop
the SC in Lake Charles, Louisiana (next to a Sonic fast food) and then we
stop at a Hotel in Channelview, Texas. I assume that the Channelview SC was
a destination charger because there is "NOTHING" except for the hotel
there, and getting into the hotel parking lot from I-10 is a pain. But the
SC worked just fine for us, and we ate in the Hotel restaurant while the
battery pack charged. Anyway that gets us to downtown Houston and easily
back to the Hotel SC where we charge again. Another stop in Lake Charles to
use the SC and then on to home. None of the stops at the Tesla SCs took any
more than 20 minutes.
I have used the Tesla Navigation program to plot trips to visit family and
friends in Wimberly, Texas, Springfield, Missouri, Alden, Michigan and
Seattle, Washington. Service chargers were available on all trips with the
possible exception of the trip to Springfield, Missouri. On that trip there
is a destination SC near Branson, Missouri that we may be able to use. If
not then I use Plug Share on my phone to find a place to charge. Our house
is listed on Plug Share with 240 volt charging. No one has ever contacted
us needing a charge.
The 220 range of our car has been just fine for us. Yes, a range of 310 (or
400) miles would be nice, but I don't see it as necessary. I think that
Tesla needs to spend much less time thinking about how fast one of their
cars can accelerate to 60 miles per hour, and consider how many additional
people can buy their cars if they release something that cost closer to
$25,000. When I was a dumb 18 year old high school graduate I really wanted
a Porsche 911. I did own a 1972 Datsun 240Z that was a VERY nice car. It
was not as fast as a Porsche, but it handled great. Now that I am 67 years
old I no longer care about going that fast. Our Model 3 is fast enough, and
in over one year of ownership I have never felt the need to floor the
accelerator.
Bob Keeland, PhD
Retired Research Ecologist

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020, 3:39 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 21 Jul 2020 at 15:11, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote:
>
> > We bought our Tesla Model 3 for $35,000. It was ordered on March 30,
> 2016 and
> > received on May, 2019.
>
> Interesting!  That's a much more reasonable price, and a decent value for
> anyone who's OK with a mid-size sedan.
>
> What's your range, if you don't mine me asking?
>
> Looking again, I see that Edmunds have the "mid range" model as the $44k
> one.  So presumably there's a "short range" model too that they don't list.
>
> But it also says that the 44k one is discontinued!  So according to that
> page only the "long range AWD" and "performance AWD" models at $47,990 and
> $56,990 respectively are still available.  To me that seems like a a
> mightly
> long haul from an affordable car.
>
> https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2019/features-specs/
>
> Something strange is going on here ...
>
> I clicked on "See Model 3 inventory" and saw only used ones.  The cheapest
> is a 2019 "standard range plus" (whatever that means) with 24k+ miles.
> They're asking $34,980!  Ehhh, no thanks.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in
> common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts. They
> alter the facts to fit their views.  This can be uncomfortable
> if 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 21 Jul 2020 at 15:11, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote:

> We bought our Tesla Model 3 for $35,000. It was ordered on March 30, 2016 and
> received on May, 2019.

Interesting!  That's a much more reasonable price, and a decent value for 
anyone who's OK with a mid-size sedan.

What's your range, if you don't mine me asking?

Looking again, I see that Edmunds have the "mid range" model as the $44k 
one.  So presumably there's a "short range" model too that they don't list.

But it also says that the 44k one is discontinued!  So according to that 
page only the "long range AWD" and "performance AWD" models at $47,990 and 
$56,990 respectively are still available.  To me that seems like a a mightly 
long haul from an affordable car.

https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2019/features-specs/

Something strange is going on here ...

I clicked on "See Model 3 inventory" and saw only used ones.  The cheapest 
is a 2019 "standard range plus" (whatever that means) with 24k+ miles.  
They're asking $34,980!  Ehhh, no thanks.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in 
common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts. They 
alter the facts to fit their views.  This can be uncomfortable 
if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering.

 -- Doctor Who, "The Face of Evil"
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Bobby Keeland via EV]

We bought our Tesla Model 3 for $35,000. It was ordered on March 30, 2016
and received on May, 2019.

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020, 12:33 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 21 Jul 2020 at 6:05, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote:
>
> > Only it's pretty much exactly the same size as a Chevy Bolt or a Hyundai
> Kona,
> > or a Tesla Model 3 for that matter.  It costs the same or slightly more
> than
> > those.
>
> Actually at about 182" long (my gauge of how easy a car is to park) it's
> quite a bit larger, and no doubt heavier, than either the Bolt or Kona.
> It's a full foot and a half longer!
>
> It's about 3" shorter than the Tesla 3.
>
> As for price, at an estimated $40k it's in the same general range but it's
> a
> somewhat wide range.
>
> The Bolt starts at $36,620 (8.5% less) and the Kona is $37,190, and
> remember
> these are much smaller cars.  Most buyers tend to perceive "larger" as
> "worth more."
>
> Despite what I've read many times here about a mid-30k Model 3, Edmunds
> list
> the cheapest model at $44k, so it's 10% more expensive.  It's probably a
> better value, as long as a mid-size sedan suits your needs.
>
> I still say we don't need more big, clunky, heavy $40k EVs, we need more
> agile little $25k ones.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  I have three rules to live by. One, get your work done. If that
>  doesn't work, shut up and drink your gin. And when all else fails,
>  run like hell.
>
> -- Ray Bradbury
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 21 Jul 2020 at 6:05, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote:

> Only it's pretty much exactly the same size as a Chevy Bolt or a Hyundai Kona,
> or a Tesla Model 3 for that matter.  It costs the same or slightly more than
> those. 

Actually at about 182" long (my gauge of how easy a car is to park) it's 
quite a bit larger, and no doubt heavier, than either the Bolt or Kona.  
It's a full foot and a half longer!  

It's about 3" shorter than the Tesla 3.

As for price, at an estimated $40k it's in the same general range but it's a 
somewhat wide range.  

The Bolt starts at $36,620 (8.5% less) and the Kona is $37,190, and remember 
these are much smaller cars.  Most buyers tend to perceive "larger" as 
"worth more."

Despite what I've read many times here about a mid-30k Model 3, Edmunds list 
the cheapest model at $44k, so it's 10% more expensive.  It's probably a 
better value, as long as a mid-size sedan suits your needs. 

I still say we don't need more big, clunky, heavy $40k EVs, we need more 
agile little $25k ones. 

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 I have three rules to live by. One, get your work done. If that 
 doesn't work, shut up and drink your gin. And when all else fails, 
 run like hell.

-- Ray Bradbury
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

Not only that, but the author claims that it's "new and unique" just the right 
size, cheaper than the competition, etc. etc.

Only it's pretty much exactly the same size as a Chevy Bolt or a Hyundai Kona, 
or a Tesla Model 3 for that matter.  It costs the same or slightly more than 
those.  It has a slightly larger battery pack than the Bolt, but 5-10% less 
range (well that's revolutionary, an EV with lower efficiency), similar size 
pack to the Kona, only a LOT less range, etc.
I kinda like the styling, but it looks like it has a lot less headroom in the 
back seat than the Bolt or the Kona.

Despite what the author claims, it doesn't look like anything new,  There are 
already several other cars for the same price with the same size and better 
range.


July 20, 2020 10:29 AM, "EVDL Administrator via EV"  wrote:

> On 20 Jul 2020 at 17:00, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> 
>> The Electric Car Everyone Wants Has Finally Been Revealed
> 
> Maybe I'm being too grouchy, not that that would be anything new, but when I
> read stuff like this I want to reach out, grab the writer, and give him a
> good hard shake. Where does he get off stating what "everyone" wants?
> Where is his editor?
> 
> Like every other EV, this new one is a compromise. There is no one vehicle
> that "everyone wants' and there never will be. What an ignoramus.
> 
> Now get off my lawn.
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> I saw a sign on a guy's garage that said "Don't even think about
> parking here." So you know what I did? I sat right there and I
> thought about it. I yelled up at his window, "Hey buddy, I'm
> thinking about it. Go ahead, call the cops. I'll just tell them
> I was thinking about something else."
> 
> -- Paula Poundstone
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 20 Jul 2020 at 17:00, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> The Electric Car Everyone Wants Has Finally Been Revealed

Maybe I'm being too grouchy, not that that would be anything new, but when I 
read stuff like this I want to reach out, grab the writer, and give him a 
good hard shake.  Where does he get off stating what "everyone" wants?  
Where is his editor?

Like every other EV, this new one is a compromise.  There is no one vehicle 
that "everyone wants' and there never will be.  What an ignoramus.

Now get off my lawn.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
  I saw a sign on a guy's garage that said "Don't even think about
  parking here." So you know what I did? I sat right there and I 
  thought about it. I yelled up at his window, "Hey buddy, I'm 
  thinking about it. Go ahead, call the cops. I'll just tell them 
  I was thinking about something else." 

 -- Paula Poundstone 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Peri Hartman via EV]

It would be nice to see some specs. I did a bit of searching but it 
seems little is really known yet.

Peri

<< Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ? 
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "evln via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "evln" 
Sent: 19-Jul-20 12:23:52 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi




https://www.gearpatrol.com/cars/a33323142/nissan-ariya-electric-crossover-revealed/
The Electric Car Everyone Wants Has Finally Been Revealed
Jul 15, 2020  Buyers want a fun, affordable, reasonably-sized electric car.
Nissan may have delivered ... something in the middle: an EV that looks like
the compact crossovers buyers want, while still being affordable — and,
perhaps, even a bit fun to drive ... Ariya is a 2-row, 5-passenger crossover
...
https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/nissan-ariya-ev-lead-1594819818.jpg
...
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/bold-new-nissan-ariya-pivotal-electric-suv-310-mile-range


+ (Mercedes-Benz EQC EV= Boring)
https://www.teslarati.com/mercedes-benz-eqc-boring-ev-momentum/
“Boring” EQC fails to provide Mercedes-Benz with EV momentum
2020-07-08  The all-electric EQC was released last year, and Deka’s Head of
Sustainability and Corporate Governance Ingo Speich had prepared remarks
that broke down the disappointing performance of the car ...
https://www.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/mercedes-benz-eqc-e1536843010559.jpg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
http://www.evdl.org/archive/
https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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