Re: [EVDL] V2H

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> What everyone is missing is that v2g is vehicle to grid.
> In other words you can power the grid with the batteries
> in your vehicle. I don’t see the attraction.

Agree.  But V-2-H (home) is a great EV application.  V2G requires
100% utility buy-in to PAY EV owners for their juice and the utility
greed just wont let that happen except under forced government
intervention.  Dont waste our time.

The business model that does work is "someday" when the utility
will sign up to give us free daily charging in exchange to access
to our batteries for an hour or so during the late afternoon when
their peaking generators have to ramp up at ten times the cost
over just a few hours as the sun goes down.until base-load generation
can kick in (and/or we go to bed).  - Bob
>
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, October 4, 2021, 6:45 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV 
>  wrote:
>
> > Also, what a great way to power a robust 120v circular saw or drill away
> > from home. (Yeah, I know that cordless power tools exist.) For example,
> > you could buy a sheet of plywood at the lumberyard and cut it into the
> > pieces you need right there in the parking lot, so that it fits neatly into
> > your car. Not that I've ever done anything like that in a Home Depot
> > parking lot, of course. :-)
>
> Most(all?) HD/Lowes stores have a panel saw and will cut the plywood for you 
> for free.  Just sayin'.
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Re: [EVDL] V2H

[paul dove via EV]

What everyone is missing is that v2g is vehicle to grid. In other words you can 
power the grid with the batteries in your vehicle. I don’t see the attraction. 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, October 4, 2021, 6:45 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  
wrote:

> Also, what a great way to power a robust 120v circular saw or drill away
> from home. (Yeah, I know that cordless power tools exist.) For example,
> you could buy a sheet of plywood at the lumberyard and cut it into the
> pieces you need right there in the parking lot, so that it fits neatly into
> your car. Not that I've ever done anything like that in a Home Depot
> parking lot, of course. :-)

Most(all?) HD/Lowes stores have a panel saw and will cut the plywood for you 
for free.  Just sayin'.
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Re: [EVDL] V2H

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

> Also, what a great way to power a robust 120v circular saw or drill away
> from home. (Yeah, I know that cordless power tools exist.) For example,
> you could buy a sheet of plywood at the lumberyard and cut it into the
> pieces you need right there in the parking lot, so that it fits neatly into
> your car. Not that I've ever done anything like that in a Home Depot
> parking lot, of course. :-)

Most(all?) HD/Lowes stores have a panel saw and will cut the plywood for you 
for free.  Just sayin'.
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Re: [EVDL] V2H

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 4 Oct 2021 at 10:19, Tim Economu via EV wrote:

> Paul, a house backup system can in fact be purchased for much less than 
> $78,000. Mine was about $8k. The point is that if it already included in the
> large battery EV you just bought, then it's effectively free. 

Your EV already has a big battery (well most these days do), and a high 
power inverter.  It shouldn't take much extra hardware to make that system 
able to squirt its battery energy out to a changeover panel in your garage 
or cellar.  

That HAS to be cheaper and more convenient than buying yet another battery 
and inverter for your house.  It's hard to imagine it costing even close to 
$8k. It might add (guessing here) 5-10% to the cost of the EV. 

That should make home backup power readily available to many homeowners who 
otherwise might think it wasn't worth the investment for the few times 
they'd need it.  

Add a couple of NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 receptacles to the EV, and apartment 
dwellers might be able to join in the fun too.  

Also, what a great way to power a robust 120v circular saw or drill away 
from home.  (Yeah, I know that cordless power tools exist.)  For example, 
you could buy a sheet of plywood at the lumberyard and cut it into the 
pieces you need right there in the parking lot, so that it fits neatly into 
your car.  Not that I've ever done anything like that in a Home Depot 
parking lot, of course. :-)

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] V2H

[Tim Economu via EV]

Willie, totally agree.

Paul, a house backup system can in fact be purchased for much less than 
$78,000. Mine was about $8k. The point is that if it already included in 
the large battery EV you just bought, then it's effectively free. And 
for most of us, free is a good thing. Now in actually we know nothing is 
free, there is a cost of using energy from your car, whether driving or 
running some of your house. Not sure what you mean about rural areas not 
likely to buy EV, I think that might be in error, at least out here on 
the left coast.


t

On 10/4/2021 8:16 AM, Willie McKemie wrote:

I believe V2H WILL be  TREMENDOUS selling point.


On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 10:08 paul dove via EV > wrote:


   Well, that is a little presumptuous. I never claimed no one
needed it. I claimed it wold not be a selling point for EV's. Not
enough people are in that situation to make a difference in sales.
Besides my vehicle was $78,000. I believe a house backup system
can be purchased for much less than this amount. I admit I haven't
researched the number of power outages and could be wrong but it
seems implausible to me. Rural areas probably have more outages
but then they are left likely to buy an EV for any reason.
    On Sunday, October 3, 2021, 9:29:58 PM CDT, Tim Economu via EV
mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:

 " I said that. Lost power for three days back in the 90's when a
tornado
blew through. Not worth investing a lot of money for 3 days every
25 years."

That seems like a quaint world view to me. "I don't need it so no
one else does either" .

We have lived in rural America for the past 40 years and power is
not so consistent in a lot of places here in the US. We lose power
every year numerous times, for varying amounts of hours and days.
I don't use fossil fuels much anymore, so backup generators are
not an option, and are a poor option for those that do use fossils
in my opinion. But I do have solar power and a small battery bank,
so recharging during a power outage is possible and is necessary
if we want to maintain power for water,refrigeration, electronics,
and fresh air inside our passive house.

To have an EV that will provide not only transportation but
occasional power is not a little thing, it's huge. Especially if
you can recharge during the sunny day. To have jobsite power is
even bigger.

I do realize that it might be something that some people do not
think is worth spending money. But there are a lot of us out here
that it would be worth spending quite a lot of for that option. If
it came as part of the package, all the better.

I happen to believe that vehicle to grid is a game changer, kind
of like Level 5 autonomy will be a game changer.
Tim Economu
Whidbey Island


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Re: [EVDL] V2H or better, (V2O)

[paul dove via EV]

The drawback is the vehicle onboard charger. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 31, 2019, at 1:46 PM, Josh L via EV  wrote:
> 
> I do think it would be worth considering to beef up the 120 Volt
> plug output capabilities of many BEVs and PHEVs.  I don't know
> if there are signficant drawbacks such as general wear and tear
> on the vehicle battery, as is a concern in general with all V2x,
> as I understand it.
> 
> On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 09:22:21 -0400, Robert Bruninga via EV
>  you wrote:
> 
>> I am amazed that EVs and hybrids do not inherently install 120v AC outlets
>> in the front and back of every car for VEHICLE-TO-OUTLETS..  (VTO) It would
>> only cost them maybe $99 per car to add a 1 kW or better inverter.  Shucks,
>> they could even make a profit and charge for it as an option.
>> 
>> But it is ridiculous to be driving around every day in a 50 kW generator or
>> in a car with 60 kWh of battery capacity and not be able to plug stuff in!
>> Bob, Wb4APR
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV  On Behalf Of Ing. Marco Gaxiola via EV
>> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 10:59 PM
>> To: Lee Hart ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> 
>> Cc: Ing. Marco Gaxiola 
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] V2H
>> 
>> I believe there may be two main reasons:
>> 
>> a) is that they may be waiting the right moment, that will boost other Tesla
>> news etc. Probably when launching the truck.
>> 
>> b) may be more of a complex software and business strategy to successfully
>> deploy it among all existing M3 owners and especially EV fleets. Like for
>> example: updating the car software to show new screens with graphs and
>> databases with buy/sell schedules while plugged in, similar the phone and
>> web apps to monitor KWh/$ earned. And of course Including legal just like
>> Lee Hart mentioned it. I know all commercial ‘grid tie’ products in the
>> market, must pass certain electrical tests to ensure they can safely
>> disconnect in case of over/under voltages, changes in frequency, etc.
>> 
>> And I can also see two different approaches: one would be the grid tie
>> service (I believe this will be the biggest target) and the second will be
>> off-grid to give the M3 ability to work as a stand-alone AC generator (power
>> blackouts, camping, etc.)
>> 
>> The firs one could also easily even work without any house electrical
>> modification, everything thru the L1 or L2 EVSE.
>> 
>> As a power generator, EVSEs would have to be different than actual ones to
>> ‘receive power’ from the M3 before powering AC devices. Or maybe they will
>> come up with a special AC outlet that will plug right into the charge port.
>> 
>> It could even work like Rivian, to provide charge from one M3 to any other
>> EV on the road.
>> 
>> 
>> With regards the cost, I actually was surprised the way they designed the
>> whole ‘penthouse’ area (how I heard it’s been called); they packaged the
>> onboard charger and DC-DC converter into one sole PCB, and next the HV
>> contactors and a ‘country/region AC adapter PCB, saving lot of money on
>> individual HV and LV wiring and connectors, avoiding use of individual
>> cooling loops, coolant hoses & fittings, mounting brackets and die-cast
>> metal enclosures like most other OEMs use to do (individually packing each
>> component, find a mounting location and then interconnect everything)
>> 
>> They used only one piece ‘cold plate’ to remove heat from all hi-pwr
>> semiconductors, transformers and coils, the design from my point of view was
>> awesome and the best I’ve ever seen.
>> 
>> Probably the bi-directionally feature may add cost, yes. But all other
>> improvements and efficient packaging they did seems to me that they beat all
>> competitors cost over all.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 29, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> From: Alan Arrison via EV 
>>>> It seems odd Tesla would have that capability available and not
>>>> mention it. It seems like it would add cost.
>>>> 
>>>> I was thinking more about an off board inverter that would connect to
>>>> the vehicle fast charge port.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Perhaps it is a legal issue? In most parts of the US, the local power
>>> companies sought (and were granted) a legal monopoly on selling
>>> electricity. 100+ years ago, they wouldn't wire your city unless you gave
>>> them a monopoly on selling power.
>>> 
>>> So pushing power bac

Re: [EVDL] V2H or better, (V2O)

[Josh L via EV]

I do think it would be worth considering to beef up the 120 Volt
plug output capabilities of many BEVs and PHEVs.  I don't know
if there are signficant drawbacks such as general wear and tear
on the vehicle battery, as is a concern in general with all V2x,
as I understand it.

On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 09:22:21 -0400, Robert Bruninga via EV
 you wrote:

>I am amazed that EVs and hybrids do not inherently install 120v AC outlets
>in the front and back of every car for VEHICLE-TO-OUTLETS..  (VTO) It would
>only cost them maybe $99 per car to add a 1 kW or better inverter.  Shucks,
>they could even make a profit and charge for it as an option.
>
>But it is ridiculous to be driving around every day in a 50 kW generator or
>in a car with 60 kWh of battery capacity and not be able to plug stuff in!
>Bob, Wb4APR
>
>-Original Message-
>From: EV  On Behalf Of Ing. Marco Gaxiola via EV
>Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 10:59 PM
>To: Lee Hart ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>
>Cc: Ing. Marco Gaxiola 
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] V2H
>
>I believe there may be two main reasons:
>
>a) is that they may be waiting the right moment, that will boost other Tesla
>news etc. Probably when launching the truck.
>
>b) may be more of a complex software and business strategy to successfully
>deploy it among all existing M3 owners and especially EV fleets. Like for
>example: updating the car software to show new screens with graphs and
>databases with buy/sell schedules while plugged in, similar the phone and
>web apps to monitor KWh/$ earned. And of course Including legal just like
>Lee Hart mentioned it. I know all commercial ‘grid tie’ products in the
>market, must pass certain electrical tests to ensure they can safely
>disconnect in case of over/under voltages, changes in frequency, etc.
>
>And I can also see two different approaches: one would be the grid tie
>service (I believe this will be the biggest target) and the second will be
>off-grid to give the M3 ability to work as a stand-alone AC generator (power
>blackouts, camping, etc.)
>
>The firs one could also easily even work without any house electrical
>modification, everything thru the L1 or L2 EVSE.
>
>As a power generator, EVSEs would have to be different than actual ones to
>‘receive power’ from the M3 before powering AC devices. Or maybe they will
>come up with a special AC outlet that will plug right into the charge port.
>
>It could even work like Rivian, to provide charge from one M3 to any other
>EV on the road.
>
>
>With regards the cost, I actually was surprised the way they designed the
>whole ‘penthouse’ area (how I heard it’s been called); they packaged the
>onboard charger and DC-DC converter into one sole PCB, and next the HV
>contactors and a ‘country/region AC adapter PCB, saving lot of money on
>individual HV and LV wiring and connectors, avoiding use of individual
>cooling loops, coolant hoses & fittings, mounting brackets and die-cast
>metal enclosures like most other OEMs use to do (individually packing each
>component, find a mounting location and then interconnect everything)
>
>They used only one piece ‘cold plate’ to remove heat from all hi-pwr
>semiconductors, transformers and coils, the design from my point of view was
>awesome and the best I’ve ever seen.
>
>Probably the bi-directionally feature may add cost, yes. But all other
>improvements and efficient packaging they did seems to me that they beat all
>competitors cost over all.
>
>
>
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jul 29, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>>
>> From: Alan Arrison via EV 
>>> It seems odd Tesla would have that capability available and not
>>> mention it. It seems like it would add cost.
>>>
>>> I was thinking more about an off board inverter that would connect to
>>> the vehicle fast charge port.
>>
>>
>> Perhaps it is a legal issue? In most parts of the US, the local power
>> companies sought (and were granted) a legal monopoly on selling
>> electricity. 100+ years ago, they wouldn't wire your city unless you gave
>> them a monopoly on selling power.
>>
>> So pushing power back into the grid has been interpreted as "selling"
>> power by some lawyers.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>

Re: [EVDL] V2H or better, (V2O)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I am amazed that EVs and hybrids do not inherently install 120v AC outlets
in the front and back of every car for VEHICLE-TO-OUTLETS..  (VTO) It would
only cost them maybe $99 per car to add a 1 kW or better inverter.  Shucks,
they could even make a profit and charge for it as an option.

But it is ridiculous to be driving around every day in a 50 kW generator or
in a car with 60 kWh of battery capacity and not be able to plug stuff in!
Bob, Wb4APR

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Ing. Marco Gaxiola via EV
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 10:59 PM
To: Lee Hart ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List

Cc: Ing. Marco Gaxiola 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] V2H

I believe there may be two main reasons:

a) is that they may be waiting the right moment, that will boost other Tesla
news etc. Probably when launching the truck.

b) may be more of a complex software and business strategy to successfully
deploy it among all existing M3 owners and especially EV fleets. Like for
example: updating the car software to show new screens with graphs and
databases with buy/sell schedules while plugged in, similar the phone and
web apps to monitor KWh/$ earned. And of course Including legal just like
Lee Hart mentioned it. I know all commercial ‘grid tie’ products in the
market, must pass certain electrical tests to ensure they can safely
disconnect in case of over/under voltages, changes in frequency, etc.

And I can also see two different approaches: one would be the grid tie
service (I believe this will be the biggest target) and the second will be
off-grid to give the M3 ability to work as a stand-alone AC generator (power
blackouts, camping, etc.)

The firs one could also easily even work without any house electrical
modification, everything thru the L1 or L2 EVSE.

As a power generator, EVSEs would have to be different than actual ones to
‘receive power’ from the M3 before powering AC devices. Or maybe they will
come up with a special AC outlet that will plug right into the charge port.

It could even work like Rivian, to provide charge from one M3 to any other
EV on the road.


With regards the cost, I actually was surprised the way they designed the
whole ‘penthouse’ area (how I heard it’s been called); they packaged the
onboard charger and DC-DC converter into one sole PCB, and next the HV
contactors and a ‘country/region AC adapter PCB, saving lot of money on
individual HV and LV wiring and connectors, avoiding use of individual
cooling loops, coolant hoses & fittings, mounting brackets and die-cast
metal enclosures like most other OEMs use to do (individually packing each
component, find a mounting location and then interconnect everything)

They used only one piece ‘cold plate’ to remove heat from all hi-pwr
semiconductors, transformers and coils, the design from my point of view was
awesome and the best I’ve ever seen.

Probably the bi-directionally feature may add cost, yes. But all other
improvements and efficient packaging they did seems to me that they beat all
competitors cost over all.




Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 29, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>
> From: Alan Arrison via EV 
>> It seems odd Tesla would have that capability available and not
>> mention it. It seems like it would add cost.
>>
>> I was thinking more about an off board inverter that would connect to
>> the vehicle fast charge port.
>
>
> Perhaps it is a legal issue? In most parts of the US, the local power
> companies sought (and were granted) a legal monopoly on selling
> electricity. 100+ years ago, they wouldn't wire your city unless you gave
> them a monopoly on selling power.
>
> So pushing power back into the grid has been interpreted as "selling"
> power by some lawyers.
>
>
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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Re: [EVDL] V2H

[Ing. Marco Gaxiola via EV]

I believe there may be two main reasons:

a) is that they may be waiting the right moment, that will boost other Tesla 
news etc. Probably when launching the truck. 

b) may be more of a complex software and business strategy to successfully 
deploy it among all existing M3 owners and especially EV fleets. Like for 
example: updating the car software to show new screens with graphs and 
databases with buy/sell schedules while plugged in, similar the phone and web 
apps to monitor KWh/$ earned. And of course Including legal just like Lee Hart 
mentioned it. I know all commercial ‘grid tie’ products in the market, must 
pass certain electrical tests to ensure they can safely disconnect in case of 
over/under voltages, changes in frequency, etc. 

And I can also see two different approaches: one would be the grid tie service 
(I believe this will be the biggest target) and the second will be off-grid to 
give the M3 ability to work as a stand-alone AC generator (power blackouts, 
camping, etc.)

The firs one could also easily even work without any house electrical 
modification, everything thru the L1 or L2 EVSE. 

As a power generator, EVSEs would have to be different than actual ones to 
‘receive power’ from the M3 before powering AC devices. Or maybe they will come 
up with a special AC outlet that will plug right into the charge port. 

It could even work like Rivian, to provide charge from one M3 to any other EV 
on the road. 


With regards the cost, I actually was surprised the way they designed the whole 
‘penthouse’ area (how I heard it’s been called); they packaged the onboard 
charger and DC-DC converter into one sole PCB, and next the HV contactors and a 
‘country/region AC adapter PCB, saving lot of money on individual HV and LV 
wiring and connectors, avoiding use of individual cooling loops, coolant hoses 
& fittings, mounting brackets and die-cast metal enclosures like most other 
OEMs use to do (individually packing each component, find a mounting location 
and then interconnect everything)

They used only one piece ‘cold plate’ to remove heat from all hi-pwr 
semiconductors, transformers and coils, the design from my point of view was 
awesome and the best I’ve ever seen. 

Probably the bi-directionally feature may add cost, yes. But all other 
improvements and efficient packaging they did seems to me that they beat all 
competitors cost over all. 




Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 29, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> From: Alan Arrison via EV 
>> It seems odd Tesla would have that capability available and not mention 
>> it. It seems like it would add cost.
>> 
>> I was thinking more about an off board inverter that would connect to 
>> the vehicle fast charge port.
> 
> 
> Perhaps it is a legal issue? In most parts of the US, the local power 
> companies sought (and were granted) a legal monopoly on selling electricity. 
> 100+ years ago, they wouldn't wire your city unless you gave them a monopoly 
> on selling power.
> 
> So pushing power back into the grid has been interpreted as "selling" power 
> by some lawyers.
> 
> 
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
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Re: [EVDL] V2H

[Lee Hart via EV]

From: Alan Arrison via EV 
>It seems odd Tesla would have that capability available and not mention 
>it. It seems like it would add cost.
>
>I was thinking more about an off board inverter that would connect to 
>the vehicle fast charge port.


Perhaps it is a legal issue? In most parts of the US, the local power companies 
sought (and were granted) a legal monopoly on selling electricity. 100+ years 
ago, they wouldn't wire your city unless you gave them a monopoly on selling 
power.

So pushing power back into the grid has been interpreted as "selling" power by 
some lawyers.


--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] V2H DIY

[jerry freedomev via EV]

  Hi Bob and All,       A solar string inverter can do those voltages to the 
grid V2G by net metering and fairly cheap.        You just need to make a 
control/timers, etc  when you want it to work  and a DC port comm card to close 
the battery contactor giving battery access.     Or buy a 1999-2000 Ford E 
Ranger and convert it to lithium has V2G stock as did some other EVs then with 
the ACPropulsion controller/charger/V2G in 1 unit.      A company in San Diego 
is making some for Nissan but forgot their name might sell them retail.         
           Jerry Dycus.
On Monday, July 29, 2019, 12:18:33 AM UTC, Robert Bruninga via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 > So why is it very difficult, fading to impossible,
> to buy a system to power a home with a dead grid from an EV?

It is trivial and only about $150 to buy almost anywhere a 1.5 to 2 kW 12v
inverter than can run a house at that power level almsot continuously for a
day or days or a week, depending on if it is a hybrid, a plugin hybrid or a
Tesla.

But your lament is right-on!  There is no existing market for 100-330 HV
VDC input 60 Hz inverters in any power class except for extremely rare high
voltage UPS that run on 16 or so batteries.  But they are so rare and so
highly prized for jusst this application that they simply cost too much
even on ebay.

The reason they dont existin quantity, is because there is no consumer
market for that power level and input characteristic.  But they will!
There is a company that makes them for the Prius.  200-240 VDC input and 3
kW split phase 240 VAC output.

What I describe in my book is a hacker alternative.  That is, modify an
existing 3 kW 12 or 24V invreter by recognizing that all the DC inversion
is done at DC, and chopping to AC is only in the output stage.  So the 3 kW
DC/DC inverter boosts the 12 or 24v to around +/- 170 VDC  Then that gets
sent to a MOSFET H-bridge and choped into 60 Hz sine or modified sine.

My idea is to simply bring in +/- 170 VDC at 8 amps from my solar array,
feed it to the existing high voltage section.  and let the inverter draw
all its power from those rails instead of from the 12 or 24v battery.  The
battery has to remain connected so that you dont have to re-invent all the
inverter control circuits, but let the bulk of the current come from the
arrays.

A great hack... someday when I retire
But all the circuits are there.  Just need somneone to hack them to our use.

bob, WB4APR
Author: http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html

On Sun, Jul 28, 2019 at 7:59 PM Willie via EV  wrote:

>
>
> On 7/28/19 4:10 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>
> > So, the claim that Wallbox is the only one with V2G is... misleading.
> >
> > Full disclosure: I work for a company that is owned by Enel, designing
> > innovative EV charging solutions.
> >
> >
> https://www.enel.com/media/news/d/2016/08/energy-on-wheels-v2g-innovation-renewables-and-grids
>
> Thanks for the additional information, Cor!
>
> So why is it very difficult, fading to impossible, to buy a system to
> power a home with a dead grid from an EV?
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>
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Re: [EVDL] V2H

[Alan Arrison via EV]

It seems odd Tesla would have that capability available and not mention 
it. It seems like it would add cost.


I was thinking more about an off board inverter that would connect to 
the vehicle fast charge port.


Al


On 7/28/2019 11:45 AM, Ing. Marco Gaxiola wrote:
It is not actually that big, last year I was able to presence a Model 
3 tear down, from a very early VIN and I found that the onboard harger 
was already hardware enable to perform that.


The electronic design was made to work worldwide, 3 or 2 phase, 
120/240vac and with a very simple architecture that allows the charger 
take power back from the HV battery, step it down using same step-up 
transformer used to charge, convert it into a sine wave and send it 
back to the grid or work like an island. Converting the car work like 
a stationary energy storage system.

Sent from my iPhone


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Re: [EVDL] V2H

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> So why is it very difficult, fading to impossible,
> to buy a system to power a home with a dead grid from an EV?

It is trivial and only about $150 to buy almost anywhere a 1.5 to 2 kW 12v
inverter than can run a house at that power level almsot continuously for a
day or days or a week, depending on if it is a hybrid, a plugin hybrid or a
Tesla.

But your lament is right-on!  There is no existing market for 100-330 HV
VDC input 60 Hz inverters in any power class except for extremely rare high
voltage UPS that run on 16 or so batteries.  But they are so rare and so
highly prized for jusst this application that they simply cost too much
even on ebay.

The reason they dont existin quantity, is because there is no consumer
market for that power level and input characteristic.  But they will!
There is a company that makes them for the Prius.  200-240 VDC input and 3
kW split phase 240 VAC output.

What I describe in my book is a hacker alternative.  That is, modify an
existing 3 kW 12 or 24V invreter by recognizing that all the DC inversion
is done at DC, and chopping to AC is only in the output stage.  So the 3 kW
DC/DC inverter boosts the 12 or 24v to around +/- 170 VDC  Then that gets
sent to a MOSFET H-bridge and choped into 60 Hz sine or modified sine.

My idea is to simply bring in +/- 170 VDC at 8 amps from my solar array,
feed it to the existing high voltage section.  and let the inverter draw
all its power from those rails instead of from the 12 or 24v battery.  The
battery has to remain connected so that you dont have to re-invent all the
inverter control circuits, but let the bulk of the current come from the
arrays.

A great hack... someday when I retire
But all the circuits are there.  Just need somneone to hack them to our use.

bob, WB4APR
Author: http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html

On Sun, Jul 28, 2019 at 7:59 PM Willie via EV  wrote:

>
>
> On 7/28/19 4:10 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>
> > So, the claim that Wallbox is the only one with V2G is... misleading.
> >
> > Full disclosure: I work for a company that is owned by Enel, designing
> > innovative EV charging solutions.
> >
> >
> https://www.enel.com/media/news/d/2016/08/energy-on-wheels-v2g-innovation-renewables-and-grids
>
> Thanks for the additional information, Cor!
>
> So why is it very difficult, fading to impossible, to buy a system to
> power a home with a dead grid from an EV?
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] V2H

[Willie via EV]

On 7/28/19 4:10 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:


So, the claim that Wallbox is the only one with V2G is... misleading.

Full disclosure: I work for a company that is owned by Enel, designing
innovative EV charging solutions.

https://www.enel.com/media/news/d/2016/08/energy-on-wheels-v2g-innovation-renewables-and-grids


Thanks for the additional information, Cor!

So why is it very difficult, fading to impossible, to buy a system to 
power a home with a dead grid from an EV?

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Re: [EVDL] V2H

[Cor van de Water via EV]

The author did not do his due diligence before releasing his article.
Almost 3 years ago Enel opened a V2G hub for charging and grid
stabilization in Denmark, using Enel V2G chargers.
Enel has also already released a 15kW V2G charger that works with Nissan
Leaf.
So, the claim that Wallbox is the only one with V2G is... misleading.

Full disclosure: I work for a company that is owned by Enel, designing
innovative EV charging solutions.

https://www.enel.com/media/news/d/2016/08/energy-on-wheels-v2g-innovation-renewables-and-grids

Regards,
Cor.


On Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 12:11 AM Alan Arrison via EV 
wrote:

> I had been wondering why something like this hadn't been done yet.
>
> However, it is by no means a done deal. They have a big problem to
> solve. They would have to work with all the automakers to have the
> vehicles allow access to the battery through the charge port and allow
> power to flow out of the battery.
>
> Good luck with that.
>
> Al
>
> On 7/27/2019 9:33 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
> > Anyone know anything about this:
> >
> https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/26/wallbox-launches-in-us-china-adds-residential-bi-directional-dc-fast-charger/
> >
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> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] V2H

[Paul Compton via EV]

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 at 17:01, Ing. Marco Gaxiola via EV
 wrote:

> The electronic design was made to work worldwide, 3 or 2 phase,

Split-single phase isn't two phase.


-- 
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www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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Re: [EVDL] V2H

[Ing. Marco Gaxiola via EV]

It is not actually that big, last year I was able to presence a Model 3 tear 
down, from a very early VIN and I found that the onboard harger was already 
hardware enable to perform that. 

The electronic design was made to work worldwide, 3 or 2 phase, 120/240vac and 
with a very simple architecture that allows the charger take power back from 
the HV battery, step it down using same step-up transformer used to charge, 
convert it into a sine wave and send it back to the grid or work like an 
island. Converting the car work like a stationary energy storage system. 

I don’t know why they haven’t released that feature yet to public, maybe 
waiting the right moment, waiting from the software team (car updates, app 
release, energy management Inet platform, etc.) or maybe they just made a few 
cars with those and forgot about that, which I don’t think so. 

The Model 3 charger architecture I saw was based on a similar design like the 
one on this page: 
https://powerpulse.net/6-6-kw-bi-directional-ev-on-board-charger-reference-design/
(After a quick search on my phone)

So just changing a few traditional components on a standard charger you can 
make it bi-directional. And it’s up to the control side where it becomes the 
challenging part. 


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 27, 2019, at 7:22 PM, Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:
> 
> I had been wondering why something like this hadn't been done yet.
> 
> However, it is by no means a done deal. They have a big problem to solve. 
> They would have to work with all the automakers to have the vehicles allow 
> access to the battery through the charge port and allow power to flow out of 
> the battery.
> 
> Good luck with that.
> 
> Al
> 
>> On 7/27/2019 9:33 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
>> Anyone know anything about this:
>> https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/26/wallbox-launches-in-us-china-adds-residential-bi-directional-dc-fast-charger/
>>  
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>> 
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] V2H

[Alan Arrison via EV]

I had been wondering why something like this hadn't been done yet.

However, it is by no means a done deal. They have a big problem to 
solve. They would have to work with all the automakers to have the 
vehicles allow access to the battery through the charge port and allow 
power to flow out of the battery.


Good luck with that.

Al

On 7/27/2019 9:33 AM, Willie via EV wrote:

Anyone know anything about this:
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/26/wallbox-launches-in-us-china-adds-residential-bi-directional-dc-fast-charger/ 


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