Re: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

I agree with this assessment based on an old book called Nazis and the Occult 
or Hitler and the Occult, I forget which. The big cheese in this manner of 
thinking we SS chieftain, Heinrich Himmler, who believed in a hollow earth in 
which "moons" arose, and the nordic race was spawned forth. The funny thing is 
that Himmler and his SS buds used to hold seances using the severed heads of 
the SS members or the those of the SA who were killed by the police during the 
1923 Putsch, and held at Bewewelsburg Castle. The funny thing is that back in 
the 1970's so did Ugandan dictator, idi Amin Dada, a Muslim, did the same 
practice with some of his dispatched associates. Go figure? 
On the religious history of the Church, please note that if we look back to the 
bishops of the church and the rise of the Pope, I discovered that through 
reading a history book called The Bad Popes, that the bishops in Italy, were 
from the lineage of the land owners (Lantinafundia) who were originally Roman 
senators! The empire fell but these guys were still rich land owners who 
maintained their own private armies. Allow me. Amazon.com: The Bad Popes (The 
Mad, Bad and Ugly of Italian History) eBook : Chamberlin, E.R.: Kindle Store
So the organization of the Church, based on the once, pagan Roman Empire, and 
organized as such deliberately, were not such wonderful people. They made wars 
(not the popes per say) upon each other incessantly. Costing thousands of lives 
every few years, and these were their fellow Christians, Phil. In fact it is a 
tool right up to this very hour with the Ukrainian Church and Putin's 
church-both Eastern Orthodox.
What of the Jews? Weak, weak, weak, all waiting close to Jerusalem, for the 
messiah to come, so they could be raised in this new wonderful age. What about 
the Muslims? Slightly better in behavior but still kill kill kill, over land, 
power, God. What about the Hindus? Very tolerant. The Chinese Buddhists and 
Confucius and Daoist's, mostly nice. So, based on pure behavior Phil, show me 
how the medieval Christians were "Jesus like" in temperament, from the nice 
pagans  
As the preachers of the 20th century said Phil, ya gotta walk the walk and not 
just talk the talk.
What about communists, socialists, and progressives? I think Phil has a point 
on barbarity being a go-to. What about Rightist Church goers? Yeah, I can see a 
totalitarian tendency here as well, tho' not funded like the Corporate Boards 
of Directors that fund the dems. As the preachers (fundamentalist's) of the 
20th century spake; "We are all sinners!" I agree, because we all make mistakes 
and we like to hit! Atheist, Believer, Pagan, Thief, we all suck!
On the other hand Phil, can you blame anyone for getting weak of spirit for 
Jesus's return (Matt:24) after 21 centuries? Many people hold on for  fear, 
others just have move on, I suppose? 
Pax et fortuna omnibus!
-Spud, da sinner!


-Original Message-
From: Philip Benjamin 
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Mon, May 9, 2022 3:52 pm
Subject: RE: FW: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?

Socialist Hitler was a Nordic PAGAN with the Aryan Swastika. He was also 
reported to be an astrology fanatic and occultist, probably a Satanist. PAGANS 
have infiltrated everywhere from the Whitehouse to the outhouse, in the pulpits 
and pews, vivil and military, almost entirely the Western academia and media.  
Philip Benjamin    From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
On Behalf Of Brent Meeker
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 2:44 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: FW: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?       
On 5/9/2022 7:15 AM, Philip Benjamin wrote: 
Philip Benjamin  Monday, May 9, 2022 9:13 AM 
'general_the...@googlegroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?   [Philip 
Benjamin] As for Wikipedia, there is no contradiction here! As far as chemistry 
is concerned an atom is the smallest unit of matter for any chemical bonds. No 
atom, no chemistry. As for the British Encyclopedia, “without the release of 
electrically charged particles” (i.e. before division into constituent 
fundamental particles) is the keynote. It is high time that the sciences think 
in terms of Dark atoms and their Dark chemistries.   Brilliant Niels Bohr 
and his ardent followers did not think in terms of chemistry. There are 
physicists who still think of Socialist PAGAN Hitler 

Whatever else he was, Hitler was a Christian...of a vengeful variety.

"Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the
world enemy -- the Jews. The work that Christ started but did not
finish, I, Adolf Hitler, will conclude."
   --- "The Book of Political Quotes," London: Angus & Robertson
Publishers, 1982, p. 195)

"The party as such represents the point of view of a positive
Christianity without binding itself to any one particular
confession."
  Adolf Hitler, in the Nazi 

RE: FW: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?

[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip benjamin].
"Was" is okay. Abraham "WAS" a pagan. Augustine "WAS" a Greco-Roman- Phoenician 
pagan. Pagan means  Pan-Gaia-n, earth-worshippers, modern environmental 
fanatic. An "unawakened consciousness" is a natural product. "Awakening" has to 
be by an extrinsic source. Athenian Mars Hill discourse (Acts 17) gives the 
clue. Augustinian "transformation" is an example. The historic and historical 
"Two Great Awakenings" in the American Colonies are other examples. In these 
instances Adonai (plural) YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural) was the external 
Source. Those events shaped the Western Civilization. Yoga, TM, Jungian 
sorceries, occultism, Psycho-Therapy etc. also may eventually lead to a 
completely different external source, with a completely different outcome. 
Politicians of all stripes are mostly inclined to the latter pagan techniques.
Philip Benjamin


From: everything-list@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 3:15 PM
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
Subject: Re: FW: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?

On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:52 PM Philip Benjamin 
mailto:medinucl...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

> Socialist Hitler was a Nordic PAGAN with

Ah, your favorite word yet again. Tell me Phillip, is there anybody or anything 
that was not a PAGAN?

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  
Extropolis
qzz

yzz





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Re: FW: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?

[John Clark]

On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:52 PM Philip Benjamin 
wrote:

*> Socialist Hitler was a Nordic PAGAN with*
>

Ah, your favorite word yet again. Tell me Phillip, is there anybody or
anything that was not a PAGAN?

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

qzz

yzz





>

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Re: The Nature of Contingency: Quantum Physics as Modal Realism

[John Clark]

On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:18 PM Brent Meeker  wrote:

>> And all of that is fundamentally the same as "shut up and calculate ",
>> they're just dressed up in slightly different philosophical bafflegab.
>
>
> * > They're not "dressed up", they are perfectly explicit in their
> interpretation and ontology.  *
>

Not just explicit but "perfectly explicit"?! I don't think so. I think
Copenhagen and QBism are not quantum interpretations at all, they're just
thinly disguised "shut up and calculate"; Pilot Wave and Many Worlds are
genuine interpretations, both are deterministic but pilot wave is not local
and Many Worlds is not realistic. Explicit collapse theories like GRW are
not quantum interpretations at all but propose a new theory that would
replace quantum mechanics, a theory that is much harder to use than quantum
mechanics, is nondeterministic, has no experimental evidence in its favor,
nobody knows how to make it compatible with special relativity, and
GRW violates
conservation of energy that some on this list think is sacred holy writ.


>> If Everett is right then when an electron makes an up/down decision it
>> makes no difference if you think of it as the entire universe  instantly
>> splits or as the split expanding outward at the speed of light, either way
>> something that happens on the surface of that expanding sphere can have no
>> effect on its center because no signal can travel faster than light.
>
>

> *An electron makes an up/down decision??  That's a new interpretation!
> You miss the point that* [...]
>

I'm quite sure you are not missing my point, but you were certainly trying
very hard to pretend that you are.

> *> parts of the universe not accounted for in your SE are acting on the
> instrument which is interacting with the electron as it's "making a
> decision". *
>

You're talking about non-locality such as in pilot wave theory, a particle
right here can instantly make a profound change to another particle on the
other side of the universe without affecting anything in between. That
sounds a little bit too much like magic for my taste, I agree with Isaac
Newton when he said:


"*T**hat one body may act upon another at a distance through a vacuum,
without the mediation of anything else, by and through which their action
and force may be conveyed from one to another, is to me so great an
absurdity that I believe no man who has in philosophical matters a
competent faculty of thinking can ever fall into it *"


> * > It's not the one-light-minute sphere expanding after the measurement
> event, it's the one-light-minute sphere contracting onto the measurement
> event before it.  How does the SE account for it?*
>

You tell me, you're the one pushing this cockamamie idea.

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

ev7

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RE: FW: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?

[Philip Benjamin]

Socialist Hitler was a Nordic PAGAN with the Aryan Swastika. He was also 
reported to be an astrology fanatic and occultist, probably a Satanist. PAGANS 
have infiltrated everywhere from the Whitehouse to the outhouse, in the pulpits 
and pews, vivil and military, almost entirely the Western academia and media.
Philip Benjamin

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of Brent Meeker
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 2:44 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: FW: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?


On 5/9/2022 7:15 AM, Philip Benjamin wrote:
Philip Benjamin  Monday, May 9, 2022 9:13 AM 
'general_the...@googlegroups.com' 

Subject: RE: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?

[Philip Benjamin]
As for Wikipedia, there is no contradiction here! As far as chemistry is 
concerned an atom is the smallest unit of matter for any chemical bonds. No 
atom, no chemistry. As for the British Encyclopedia, "without the release of 
electrically charged particles" (i.e. before division into constituent 
fundamental particles) is the keynote. It is high time that the sciences think 
in terms of Dark atoms and their Dark chemistries.
Brilliant Niels Bohr and his ardent followers did not think in terms of 
chemistry. There are physicists who still think of Socialist PAGAN Hitler

Whatever else he was, Hitler was a Christian...of a vengeful variety.

"Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the
world enemy -- the Jews. The work that Christ started but did not
finish, I, Adolf Hitler, will conclude."
   --- "The Book of Political Quotes," London: Angus & Robertson
Publishers, 1982, p. 195)

"The party as such represents the point of view of a positive
Christianity without binding itself to any one particular
confession."
  Adolf Hitler, in the Nazi manifesto:

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have 
therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not 
merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
---Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

"We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity in fact 
our movement is Christian."
---Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv 
Berlin-Zehlendorf, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall¹s The Holy Reich]

"God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and unshakeable 
faith, that he was sent to us by God to save Germany."
--- Hermann Goering, speaking of Adolf Hitler

Brent
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Re: FW: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?

[Brent Meeker]

On 5/9/2022 7:15 AM, Philip Benjamin wrote:


Philip Benjamin  Monday, May 9, 2022 9:13 AM 
'general_the...@googlegroups.com' 

*Subject:* RE: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?

[*Philip Benjamin*]

As for Wikipedia, there is no contradiction here! As far as chemistry 
is concerned an atom is the smallest unit of matter for any chemical 
bonds. No atom, no chemistry. As for the British Encyclopedia, 
“without the release of electrically charged particles” (i.e. before 
division into constituent fundamental particles) is the keynote. It is 
high time that the sciences think in terms of Dark atoms and their 
Dark chemistries.


Brilliant Niels Bohr and his ardent followers did not think in 
terms of chemistry. There are physicists who still think of Socialist 
PAGAN Hitler




Whatever else he was, Hitler was a Christian...of a vengeful variety.

"Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the
world enemy -- the Jews. The work that Christ started but did not
finish, I, Adolf Hitler, will conclude."
   --- "The Book of Political Quotes," London: Angus & Robertson
Publishers, 1982, p. 195)

"The party as such represents the point of view of a positive
Christianity without binding itself to any one particular
confession."
  Adolf Hitler, in the Nazi manifesto:

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have 
therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that 
not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

    ---Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

"We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity 
in fact our movement is Christian."
    ---Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, 
Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf,         [cited from Richard 
Steigmann-Gall¹s The Holy Reich]


"God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and 
unshakeable faith, that he was sent to us by God to save Germany."

    --- Hermann Goering, speaking of Adolf Hitler

Brent

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Re: The Nature of Contingency: Quantum Physics as Modal Realism

[Brent Meeker]

On 5/9/2022 3:36 AM, John Clark wrote:

On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 7:00 PM Brent Meeker  wrote:

On 5/8/2022 1:50 PM, smitra wrote:

>> That the CI is inconsistent with the Schrödinger equation
is easy to 


>> see. If the Schrödinger is valid, then the state of a
system evolves 


>> in a unitary way. But after a real collapse the state
changes in a 

>> non-unitary way. 



> /Which is only a problem if one insists that the Schroedinger
equation is
the whole of the theory and it is ontic.  CI denies the first and
says
that measurements are projection operators because a measurements is
necessarily a classical-like result.  QBism says the whole theory is
epistemic./


And all of that is fundamentallythe same as "shut up and calculate ", 
they're just dressed up in slightly different philosophical bafflegab.


They're not "dressed up", they are perfectly explicit in their 
interpretation and ontology.  Only the Priesthood of Everett resorts to 
snide denigration.  And their ontology does not need an continuum 
infinity of universes to "explain" probability.




>> If the measurement takes one minute, then the initial state
of a patch 


>> of one light-minute diameter around the location of the
experiment 

>> maps to a final state of that patch in a unitary way. 



> /You seem to overlook that this one-light minute sphere also had
incomingparticles and radiation which could not be accounted for
theSchroedinger equation./


If Everett is right then when an electron makes an up/down decision it 
makes no difference if you think of it as the entire universe 
 instantly splits or as the split expanding outward at the speed of 
light, either way something that happens on the surface of that 
expanding sphere can have no effect on its center because no signal 
can travel faster than light.


An electron makes an up/down decision??  That's a new interpretation!  
You miss the point that parts of the universe not accounted for in your 
SE are acting on the instrument which is interacting with the electron 
as it's "making a decision".  It's not the one-light-minute sphere 
expanding after the measurement event, it's the one-light-minute sphere 
contracting onto the measurement event before it.  How does the SE 
account for it?


Brent



John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 


lft


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Re: The Nature of Contingency: Quantum Physics as Modal Realism

[Brent Meeker]

On 5/9/2022 3:15 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 6:34 PM Bruce Kellett  
wrote:


/> The Everett program is to say that the SE is all that there is
-- it explains everything. /


No! The Everett program says the only assumption Quantum Mechanics 
needs is that the Schrodinger Equation means what it says, and nobody 
in their right mind thinks Quantum Mechanics as it currently exists, 
or the Schrodinger Equation, describes gravity.


/> That is clearly false (no Born rule in the SE), /


The Born Rule is not an assumption nor is it a theory, it is an 
experimentally derived fact, a fact that EVERY quantum interpretation 
makes use of.


/> so it might be wise to doubt the universal application of the SE./


Without Schrodinger's Equation there could be no quantum wave 
function, and without the quantum wave function there could be no Born 
Rule, and without the Born Rule there could be no Quantum Mechanics. 
And Quantum Mechanics is the most universally applicable idea in all 
of science, it works on everything except gravity, so it might be wise 
to keep it around.


We keep Newtonian mechanics around too.  That doesn't mean nothing 
better can be found.  Schroedinger's equation isn't even the only form 
of QM.  There are also transactional and path integral forms and 
epistemic forms like QBism.  And there are also slightly different 
theories like Adler's emergent QM and explicit collapse theories like 
GRW.  All of which are the same theory at the level of "might be wise to 
keep around."


Brent



John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 


ebk


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FW: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?

[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip Benjamin]
  Hi Rosie, They are PHYSICAL matter particles. Chemistry means  PHYSICAL 
chemical bonds which are PHYSICAL duets and octets of PHYSICAL particles 
(electrons). Dark matter is PHYSICAL, gravitationally and optically measurable. 
 Spin is amathematical derivative and PHYSICAL. There is no  PHYSICAL need to 
bring metaphysics or mysticism or occultism or the breaking of basic Laws of 
Logic into any REAL science.
Philip Benjamin
PS. Glad to know that Serge is alive and well in Ukraine, as a real patriotic 
citizen against fascist PAGAN tyranny.
From: 'Rosemary Rock-Evans' via Consciousness-Online 
mailto:general_the...@googlegroups.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 9:29 AM
To: general_the...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?

so atoms are matter [material] but they are formed from particles.

These particles must have a very fundamental set of functions in order to bond 
- the laws of attraction and repulsion for example - and form an atom. Do they 
literally spin or only figuratively spin?

Are they material or non material ? Atums [with a u, o 'objects' maybe ?]

rosie

-- Original Message --
From: "Philip Benjamin" 
mailto:medinucl...@hotmail.com>>
To: "general_the...@googlegroups.com" 
mailto:general_the...@googlegroups.com>>
Sent: Monday, 9 May, 22 At 15:12
Subject: RE: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?
[Philip Benjamin]
As for Wikipedia, there is no contradiction here! As far as chemistry is 
concerned an atom is the smallest unit of matter for any chemical bonds. No 
atom, no chemistry. As for the British Encyclopedia, "without the release of 
electrically charged particles" (i.e. before division into constituent 
fundamental particles) is the keynote. It is high time that the sciences think 
in terms of Dark atoms and their Dark chemistries.
Brilliant Niels Bohr and his ardent followers did not think in terms of 
chemistry. There are physicists who still think of Socialist PAGAN Hitler and 
Marxist PAGAN Stalin and Fascist PAGAN Mussolini or appeaser-occultist PAGAN 
Neville Chamberlain still carrying out their activities in the Many Worlds!! 
Absurdly, they have no need of a Many World chemistry!! There are eminent 
physicists who follow the late brilliant physicist Stephen Hawking in proposing 
"self-creation" of the Universe (Many Worlds?), without being aware of the 
basic logical Law of Noncontradiction" and the basic laws of chemistry.
Philip Benjamin  (Nonconformist to anarchist Marxist pagan globalism of 
WAMP-the-Ingrate)
Subject: RE: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?

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FW: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?

[Philip Benjamin]

Philip Benjamin  Monday, May 9, 2022 9:13 AM 'general_the...@googlegroups.com' 

Subject: RE: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is Artificial Life Conscious?

[Philip Benjamin]
As for Wikipedia, there is no contradiction here! As far as chemistry is 
concerned an atom is the smallest unit of matter for any chemical bonds. No 
atom, no chemistry. As for the British Encyclopedia, "without the release of 
electrically charged particles" (i.e. before division into constituent 
fundamental particles) is the keynote. It is high time that the sciences think 
in terms of Dark atoms and their Dark chemistries.
Brilliant Niels Bohr and his ardent followers did not think in terms of 
chemistry. There are physicists who still think of Socialist PAGAN Hitler and 
Marxist PAGAN Stalin and Fascist PAGAN Mussolini or appeaser-occultist PAGAN 
Neville  Chamberlain still carrying out their activities in the Many Worlds!!  
Absurdly, they have no need of a Many World chemistry!!  There are eminent 
physicists who follow the late brilliant physicist Stephen Hawking in proposing 
"self-creation" of the Universe (Many Worlds?), without being aware of the 
basic logical Law of Noncontradiction" and the basic laws of chemistry.
Philip Benjamin
(Nonconformist to anarchist Marxist pagan globalism of WAMP-the-Ingrate)

From: 'Rosemary   via Consciousness-Online  
general_the...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 3:02 PM Subject: RE: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Is 
Artificial Life Conscious?

Dear Philip,



Definition from Encyclopaedia Britannica
An atom, is the smallest unit into which matter can be divided without the 
release of electrically charged particles. It is also the smallest unit of 
matter that has the 
characteristic
 properties of a chemical 
element.
 As such, the atom is the basic building block of 
chemistry.



Definition according to Wikipedia
An atom is the smallest unit of ordinary 
matter
 that forms a chemical 
element.
 Every 
solid,
 
liquid,
 

Re: The Nature of Contingency: Quantum Physics as Modal Realism

[John Clark]

On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 7:00 PM Brent Meeker  wrote:

On 5/8/2022 1:50 PM, smitra wrote:
>
> >> That the CI is inconsistent with the Schrödinger equation is easy to
>
> >> see. If the Schrödinger is valid, then the state of a system evolves
>
> >> in a unitary way. But after a real collapse the state changes in a
>
> >> non-unitary way.
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> *Which is only a problem if one insists that the Schroedinger equation is
> the whole of the theory and it is ontic.  CI denies the first and says that
> measurements are projection operators because a measurements is necessarily
> a classical-like result.  QBism says the whole theory is epistemic.*
>

And all of that is fundamentally the same as "shut up and calculate ",
they're just dressed up in slightly different philosophical bafflegab.

>> If the measurement takes one minute, then the initial state of a patch
>
> >> of one light-minute diameter around the location of the experiment
>
> >> maps to a final state of that patch in a unitary way.
>
>
> > *You seem to overlook that this one-light minute sphere also had
> incoming particles and radiation which could not be accounted for the
> Schroedinger equation.*
>

If Everett is right then when an electron makes an up/down decision it
makes no difference if you think of it as the entire universe  instantly
splits or as the split expanding outward at the speed of light, either way
something that happens on the surface of that expanding sphere can have no
effect on its center because no signal can travel faster than light.

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

lft


>

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Re: The Nature of Contingency: Quantum Physics as Modal Realism

[John Clark]

On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 6:34 PM Bruce Kellett  wrote:

*> The Everett program is to say that the SE is all that there is -- it
> explains everything. *


No! The Everett program says the only assumption Quantum Mechanics needs is
that the Schrodinger Equation means what it says, and nobody in their right
mind thinks Quantum Mechanics as it currently exists, or the Schrodinger
Equation, describes gravity.

*> That is clearly false (no Born rule in the SE), *


The Born Rule is not an assumption nor is it a theory, it is an
experimentally derived fact, a fact that EVERY quantum interpretation makes
use of.

*> so it might be wise to doubt the universal application of the SE.*


Without Schrodinger's Equation there could be no quantum wave function, and
without the quantum wave function there could be no Born Rule, and without
the Born Rule there could be no Quantum Mechanics. And Quantum Mechanics is
the most universally applicable idea in all of science, it works on
everything except gravity, so it might be wise to keep it around.

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

ebk

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