Re: John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology'
On 08 Jul 2013, at 02:43, meekerdb wrote: On 7/7/2013 6:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Jul 2013, at 04:41, meekerdb wrote: On 7/6/2013 3:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Atheists are usually just slightly more dishonest when talking like if science was on their side, which is a mockery of what is science at the start. Atheists think science is on their side because the common monotheisms demand faith in ancient myths and they murdered and tortured people for teaching what is now common scienctific knowledge. You might confuse religion and clericalism. And you might confuse mysticism and religion. Perhaps. For me theology is like any part of science. We have to convince ourself with arguments and experiences, against (old) institutions and argument per authority. I don't think there is scientific knowledge per se. Only beliefs which might or not be true. Only when refuted we can bet they are locally false. Like the Earth is flat and has four corners? That has been reasonably refuted. Like rain is water that is not held back by the firmament? Like disease is caused by impiety and sin? Like God punishes mankind with death for having sought knowledge? That are theories imposed to us by terror and violence. Brent Religion has the exact same job assignment as science, to make sense of the world, Exactly. that's why science and religion can never co exist peacefully. No. That's why science and authoritative arguments can never coexist peacefully. But the atheists are those who want confine the theological science in the domain of the perverted religious institution. The atheists are the allies of the perverted religion/theology. I have lived this and still live this everyday. Science changes its stories based on better evidence, religion writes its stories on stone tablets.- Science, yes. But atheism is not science: it is pervert religion. Science is agnosticism. --- Bob Zannelli Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology'
On 07 Jul 2013, at 04:41, meekerdb wrote: On 7/6/2013 3:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Atheists are usually just slightly more dishonest when talking like if science was on their side, which is a mockery of what is science at the start. Atheists think science is on their side because the common monotheisms demand faith in ancient myths and they murdered and tortured people for teaching what is now common scienctific knowledge. You might confuse religion and clericalism. I don't think there is scientific knowledge per se. Only beliefs which might or not be true. Only when refuted we can bet they are locally false. Bruno I'd think someone named Bruno would be more aware of that. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology'
On 7/7/2013 6:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Jul 2013, at 04:41, meekerdb wrote: On 7/6/2013 3:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Atheists are usually just slightly more dishonest when talking like if science was on their side, which is a mockery of what is science at the start. Atheists think science is on their side because the common monotheisms demand faith in ancient myths and they murdered and tortured people for teaching what is now common scienctific knowledge. You might confuse religion and clericalism. And you might confuse mysticism and religion. I don't think there is scientific knowledge per se. Only beliefs which might or not be true. Only when refuted we can bet they are locally false. Like the Earth is flat and has four corners? Like rain is water that is not held back by the firmament? Like disease is caused by impiety and sin? Like God punishes mankind with death for having sought knowledge? Brent Religion has the exact same job assignment as science, to make sense of the world, that's why science and religion can never co exist peacefully. Science changes its stories based on better evidence, religion writes its stories on stone tablets. --- Bob Zannelli -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology'
On 05 Jul 2013, at 15:19, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Brent, please acknowledge that aside from the divine right of kings, the Atheist-Marxists did exactly the identical badness under the leaderships of Stalin,Mao, Pol Pot, the Kim Dynasty in North Korean, slaughtered tens of millions, tortured, deprived women of rights, slave labor, and specialized, in torture. All these scientific socialsts, all athesists. Just a way of putting things into perspective. Atheism and Christianism are both slight variation of Aristotelian materialism. It is mainly the same theology, with the same social drawback, and the same use of argument per authority. Their fake opposition hides the real debate on the nature of reality. Atheists are usually just slightly more dishonest when talking like if science was on their side, which is a mockery of what is science at the start. Science does not commit itself ontologically at all. It is agnostic by construction. Bruno Mitch Peasent: Hey! That's a good idea! God: Of course it's a good idea, you idiot! Monty Python and the Holy Grail Of course this ethic requiredness supported slavery, ethnic cleansing, divine right of kings, faith over inquiry, ignorance over knowledge, oppression of women, and infinite torture for unbelievers. Brent Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his Reason. --- Martin Luther -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Jul 4, 2013 8:19 pm Subject: Re: John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology' On 7/4/2013 5:02 PM, freqflyer07281972 wrote: Hey List! (and in particular Bruno) I have started re-reading the book I mention in the subject line -- after languishing in my bookshelf for a number of years, I pulled it out and began noticing the uncanny parallels it had with Bruno's UDA, although it reaches the same conclusions by some rather different means, notably; it postulates God as the thinker of all thoughts, envisioning god in a Spinozistic/Platonic light, and (something that from what I have read seems absent from the UDA) postulates the 'ethical requiredness' of God as being of enough force to bring him into being, thus short-circuiting the old If God exists, what caused him to exist? type of argument. Yeah, postulating is a good way to short circuit arguments (and burn out rational wiring). I guess my general question is if any of you are familiar with Leslie's work and if so, to what degree, and also if so, to what degree do you find it plausible? Myself, I seem to be going through a kind of metaphysical conversion of sorts, one where, despite the multiplicity of minds/universes, there nevertheless seems to be an unspeakable and seemingly permanent unity to all things. I'm almost leaning towards Christianity, for the simple reason that it seems peculiar and particular enough to just be right and suitable to reality. (Reading CS Lewis' 'Mere Christianity' has swayed me in this way -- check it out, it's online). Of course this ethic requiredness supported slavery, ethnic cleansing, divine right of kings, faith over inquiry, ignorance over knowledge, oppression of women, and infinite torture for unbelievers. Brent Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his Reason. --- Martin Luther -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology'
On 7/6/2013 3:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Atheists are usually just slightly more dishonest when talking like if science was on their side, which is a mockery of what is science at the start. Atheists think science is on their side because the common monotheisms demand faith in ancient myths and they murdered and tortured people for teaching what is now common scienctific knowledge. I'd think someone named Bruno would be more aware of that. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology'
On 05 Jul 2013, at 02:02, freqflyer07281972 wrote: Hey List! (and in particular Bruno) I have started re-reading the book I mention in the subject line -- after languishing in my bookshelf for a number of years, I pulled it out and began noticing the uncanny parallels it had with Bruno's UDA, although it reaches the same conclusions by some rather different means, notably; it postulates God as the thinker of all thoughts, envisioning god in a Spinozistic/Platonic light, and (something that from what I have read seems absent from the UDA) postulates the 'ethical requiredness' of God as being of enough force to bring him into being, thus short-circuiting the old If God exists, what caused him to exist? type of argument. I guess my general question is if any of you are familiar with Leslie's work and if so, to what degree, and also if so, to what degree do you find it plausible? Leslie typically use bayesian reasoning. I read his book on the doomsday argument, that he attributes to Brandon Carter, and I am not convinced, by that type of ASSA argument. But I do think he wrote a book on many-world, which is more close to comp and MWI, perhaps. Myself, I seem to be going through a kind of metaphysical conversion of sorts, one where, despite the multiplicity of minds/universes, there nevertheless seems to be an unspeakable and seemingly permanent unity to all things. I'm almost leaning towards Christianity, for the simple reason that it seems peculiar and particular enough to just be right and suitable to reality. (Reading CS Lewis' 'Mere Christianity' has swayed me in this way -- check it out, it's online). Forgive the brevity of my remarks... I'd unpack more if there was any interest expressed in what I was saying... perhaps I'm not saying anything that hasn't already been said. You are welcome. I would be careful with the unnameable, as it can attract wishful thinking. Best, Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology'
Brent, please acknowledge that aside from the divine right of kings, the Atheist-Marxists did exactly the identical badness under the leaderships of Stalin,Mao, Pol Pot, the Kim Dynasty in North Korean, slaughtered tens of millions, tortured, deprived women of rights, slave labor, and specialized, in torture. All these scientific socialsts, all athesists. Just a way of putting things into perspective. Mitch Peasent: Hey! That's a good idea! God: Of course it's a good idea, you idiot! Monty Python and the Holy Grail Of course this ethic requiredness supported slavery, ethnic cleansing, divine ight of ings, faith over inquiry, ignorance over knowledge, oppression of women, and nfinite orture for unbelievers. Brent Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of is Reason. --- Martin Luther -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Jul 4, 2013 8:19 pm Subject: Re: John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology' On 7/4/2013 5:02 PM, freqflyer07281972 wrote: Hey List! (and in particular Bruno) I have started re-reading the book I mention in the subject line -- after anguishing in my bookshelf for a number of years, I pulled it out and began noticing the ncanny parallels it had with Bruno's UDA, although it reaches the same conclusions by ome rather different means, notably; it postulates God as the thinker of all houghts, envisioning god in a Spinozistic/Platonic light, and (something that from what have read seems absent from the UDA) postulates the 'ethical requiredness' of God s being of enough force to bring him into being, thus short-circuiting the old If God xists, what caused him to exist? type of argument. Yeah, postulating is a good way to short circuit arguments (and burn out ational wiring). I guess my general question is if any of you are familiar with Leslie's work nd if so, to what degree, and also if so, to what degree do you find it plausible? Myself, I seem to be going through a kind of metaphysical conversion of sorts, ne where, despite the multiplicity of minds/universes, there nevertheless seems o be an unspeakable and seemingly permanent unity to all things. I'm almost leaning owards Christianity, for the simple reason that it seems peculiar and particular nough to just be right and suitable to reality. (Reading CS Lewis' 'Mere Christianity' has wayed me in this way -- check it out, it's online). Of course this ethic requiredness supported slavery, ethnic cleansing, divine ight of ings, faith over inquiry, ignorance over knowledge, oppression of women, and nfinite orture for unbelievers. Brent Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of is Reason. --- Martin Luther -- ou received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. o unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email o everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. o post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. isit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. or more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology'
Yes, Infinite Minds, Defending Immortality, The End of the World. Leslie, was interviewed by Jim Holt in Holt's Why the World Exists? Leslie's Ethical Requireness is interesting. I have mentally tried to mingle Leslie's works with Boltzmann's Boltzmann Brains, by asking silly, questions, as, is God a Boltzmann Brain? Or, If God is a BB, are we mere flickerings of thoughts within that Boltzmann Brain? Are there others as there should be? in an envisaged, infinite single universe? These are stimulating ideas to toy with, but I am sure Karl Popper would be asking for falsifiability. Still, it might be enjoyable for us primates to meet and communicate with the Master Brain, of this section of reality. Or at least I think this. Mitch -Original Message- From: freqflyer07281972 thismindisbud...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Jul 4, 2013 8:02 pm Subject: John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology' Hey List! (and in particular Bruno) I have started re-reading the book I mention in the subject line -- after languishing in my bookshelf for a number of years, I pulled it out and began noticing the uncanny parallels it had with Bruno's UDA, although it reaches the same conclusions by some rather different means, notably; it postulates God as the thinker of all thoughts, envisioning god in a Spinozistic/Platonic light, and (something that from what I have read seems absent from the UDA) postulates the 'ethical requiredness' of God as being of enough force to bring him into being, thus short-circuiting the old If God exists, what caused him to exist? type of argument. I guess my general question is if any of you are familiar with Leslie's work and if so, to what degree, and also if so, to what degree do you find it plausible? Myself, I seem to be going through a kind of metaphysical conversion of sorts, one where, despite the multiplicity of minds/universes, there nevertheless seems to be an unspeakable and seemingly permanent unity to all things. I'm almost leaning towards Christianity, for the simple reason that it seems peculiar and particular enough to just be right and suitable to reality. (Reading CS Lewis' 'Mere Christianity' has swayed me in this way -- check it out, it's online). Forgive the brevity of my remarks... I'd unpack more if there was any interest expressed in what I was saying... perhaps I'm not saying anything that hasn't already been said. Cheers, Dan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology'
On 7/5/2013 6:19 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Brent, please acknowledge that aside from the divine right of kings, the Atheist-Marxists did exactly the identical badness under the leaderships of Stalin,Mao, Pol Pot, the Kim Dynasty in North Korean, slaughtered tens of millions, tortured, deprived women of rights, slave labor, and specialized, in torture. All these scientific socialsts, all athesists. Just a way of putting things into perspective. But unlike the inquistion and the crusades those purges were just for political power, as has been done for millenia. They were not in the name of atheism. Of course religion has often been used as cover for the exercise of political power; but in some of the most egregious cases religious belief itself has motivated the atrocities, c.f. the Cathars. And why not - certainly if it takes torture and bloodshed on a mere temporal scale to avoid an eternity of torture then it is justified. Brent But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. --- Jesus, Luke 19:27 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology'
As you indicated it is sometimes difficult to separate the the temporal from eternity. Lots of the massacres commited by the marxists, were done also out of paranoia and thus, emotion. I don't view the marxists as any cleaner, in purpose or reason then the religious witch burners, or the inquisitors. Stalins' slaughter of the Poles and Ukrainians, or Pol Pot's riddence of of those who could read and write, for example. It's all a form of group madness, seemingly. Mitch -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 2:29 pm Subject: Re: John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology' On 7/5/2013 6:19 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Brent, please acknowledge that aside from the divine right of kings, the Atheist-Marxists did exactly the identical badness under the leaderships of Stalin,Mao, Pol Pot, the Kim Dynasty in North Korean, slaughtered tens of millions, tortured, deprived women of rights, slave labor, and specialized, in torture. All these scientific socialsts, all athesists. Just a way of putting things into perspective. But unlike the inquistion and the crusades those purges were just for political power, as has been done for millenia. They were not in the name of atheism. Of course religion has often been used as cover for the exercise of political power; but in some of the most egregious cases religious belief itself has motivated the atrocities, c.f. the Cathars. And why not - certainly if it takes torture and bloodshed on a mere temporal scale to avoid an eternity of torture then it is justified. Brent But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. --- Jesus, Luke 19:27 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology'
Hey List! (and in particular Bruno) I have started re-reading the book I mention in the subject line -- after languishing in my bookshelf for a number of years, I pulled it out and began noticing the uncanny parallels it had with Bruno's UDA, although it reaches the same conclusions by some rather different means, notably; it postulates God as the thinker of all thoughts, envisioning god in a Spinozistic/Platonic light, and (something that from what I have read seems absent from the UDA) postulates the 'ethical requiredness' of God as being of enough force to bring him into being, thus short-circuiting the old If God exists, what caused him to exist? type of argument. I guess my general question is if any of you are familiar with Leslie's work and if so, to what degree, and also if so, to what degree do you find it plausible? Myself, I seem to be going through a kind of metaphysical conversion of sorts, one where, despite the multiplicity of minds/universes, there nevertheless seems to be an unspeakable and seemingly permanent unity to all things. I'm almost leaning towards Christianity, for the simple reason that it seems peculiar and particular enough to just be right and suitable to reality. (Reading CS Lewis' 'Mere Christianity' has swayed me in this way -- check it out, it's online). Forgive the brevity of my remarks... I'd unpack more if there was any interest expressed in what I was saying... perhaps I'm not saying anything that hasn't already been said. Cheers, Dan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: John Leslie's 'Infinite Minds: A Philosophical Cosmology'
On 7/4/2013 5:02 PM, freqflyer07281972 wrote: Hey List! (and in particular Bruno) I have started re-reading the book I mention in the subject line -- after languishing in my bookshelf for a number of years, I pulled it out and began noticing the uncanny parallels it had with Bruno's UDA, although it reaches the same conclusions by some rather different means, notably; it postulates God as the thinker of all thoughts, envisioning god in a Spinozistic/Platonic light, and (something that from what I have read seems absent from the UDA) postulates the 'ethical requiredness' of God as being of enough force to bring him into being, thus short-circuiting the old If God exists, what caused him to exist? type of argument. Yeah, postulating is a good way to short circuit arguments (and burn out rational wiring). I guess my general question is if any of you are familiar with Leslie's work and if so, to what degree, and also if so, to what degree do you find it plausible? Myself, I seem to be going through a kind of metaphysical conversion of sorts, one where, despite the multiplicity of minds/universes, there nevertheless seems to be an unspeakable and seemingly permanent unity to all things. I'm almost leaning towards Christianity, for the simple reason that it seems peculiar and particular enough to just be right and suitable to reality. (Reading CS Lewis' 'Mere Christianity' has swayed me in this way -- check it out, it's online). Of course this ethic requiredness supported slavery, ethnic cleansing, divine right of kings, faith over inquiry, ignorance over knowledge, oppression of women, and infinite torture for unbelievers. Brent Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his Reason. --- Martin Luther -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
