Re: Should animals be treated as people?
On 05 Jun 2014, at 00:04, LizR wrote: If you have any doubts, just look at the scrolling messages underneath. It's DEFINITELY a spoof! I looked at many onions, and have few doubt that those are 'spoof'. Very funny. I liked very much the one on al qaeda :) Be careful because spoof does not entails necessarily false ! I have to go (busy day), so I might comment other posts later. But let me ask you a question (for the derivation of physics from arithmetic): have you any idea of what is quantum logic? Best, Bruno On 5 June 2014 04:17, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 29 May 2014, at 03:56, meekerdb wrote: On 5/28/2014 6:48 PM, LizR wrote: On 29 May 2014 13:43, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/28/2014 6:28 PM, LizR wrote: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/innovators/2014/05/140528-lori-marino-dolphins-animals-personhood-blackfish-taiji-science-world/?utm_source=Twitterutm_medium=Socialutm_content=link_tw20140528news-loriutm_campaign=Contentsf3097303=1 The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but Can they suffer? Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) Ah, so consciousness is both more difficult and more important than intelligence! I don't think it's more difficult - I think some very unintelligent animals can suffer. Of course there are different kinds of suffering. I doubt that suffering pain requires human-like consciousness, OK. but suffering existential angst probably does. A funny (or depressive?) video, on a team of scientist explaining to a gorilla that he will die: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkWS4t4l0k I think it is a sort of april fool, though. Animals know angst, but probably not the angst of angst. You might need languages for that. I am not sure though. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Should animals be treated as people?
I rather pray for many forgotten human beings to be treated at least like most animals 2014-05-29 3:28 GMT+02:00, LizR lizj...@gmail.com: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/innovators/2014/05/140528-lori-marino-dolphins-animals-personhood-blackfish-taiji-science-world/?utm_source=Twitterutm_medium=Socialutm_content=link_tw20140528news-loriutm_campaign=Contentsf3097303=1 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Should animals be treated as people?
On 5 June 2014 21:41, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: I rather pray for many forgotten human beings to be treated at least like most animals Like most animals we're fond of, yes. Rather than treating them like the ones we eat (and we're even getting kinder to them). A person is not just a machine for bringing us the latest gadgets / fashions, and the fact that we have made slavery invisible by outsourcing it to the third world doesn't make it OK. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Should animals be treated as people?
On 29 May 2014, at 03:56, meekerdb wrote: On 5/28/2014 6:48 PM, LizR wrote: On 29 May 2014 13:43, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/28/2014 6:28 PM, LizR wrote: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/innovators/2014/05/140528-lori-marino-dolphins-animals-personhood-blackfish-taiji-science-world/?utm_source=Twitterutm_medium=Socialutm_content=link_tw20140528news-loriutm_campaign=Contentsf3097303=1 The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but Can they suffer? Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) Ah, so consciousness is both more difficult and more important than intelligence! I don't think it's more difficult - I think some very unintelligent animals can suffer. Of course there are different kinds of suffering. I doubt that suffering pain requires human-like consciousness, OK. but suffering existential angst probably does. A funny (or depressive?) video, on a team of scientist explaining to a gorilla that he will die: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkWS4t4l0k I think it is a sort of april fool, though. Animals know angst, but probably not the angst of angst. You might need languages for that. I am not sure though. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Should animals be treated as people?
If you have any doubts, just look at the scrolling messages underneath. It's DEFINITELY a spoof! On 5 June 2014 04:17, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 29 May 2014, at 03:56, meekerdb wrote: On 5/28/2014 6:48 PM, LizR wrote: On 29 May 2014 13:43, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/28/2014 6:28 PM, LizR wrote: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/innovators/2014/05/140528-lori-marino-dolphins-animals-personhood-blackfish-taiji-science-world/?utm_source=Twitterutm_medium=Socialutm_content=link_tw20140528news-loriutm_campaign=Contentsf3097303=1 The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but Can they suffer? Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) Ah, so consciousness *is* both more difficult and more important than intelligence! I don't think it's more difficult - I think some very unintelligent animals can suffer. Of course there are different kinds of suffering. I doubt that suffering pain requires human-like consciousness, OK. but suffering existential angst probably does. A funny (or depressive?) video, on a team of scientist explaining to a gorilla that he will die: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkWS4t4l0k I think it is a sort of april fool, though. Animals know angst, but probably not the angst of angst. You might need languages for that. I am not sure though. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Should animals be treated as people?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/innovators/2014/05/140528-lori-marino-dolphins-animals-personhood-blackfish-taiji-science-world/?utm_source=Twitterutm_medium=Socialutm_content=link_tw20140528news-loriutm_campaign=Contentsf3097303=1 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Should animals be treated as people?
On 5/28/2014 6:28 PM, LizR wrote: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/innovators/2014/05/140528-lori-marino-dolphins-animals-personhood-blackfish-taiji-science-world/?utm_source=Twitterutm_medium=Socialutm_content=link_tw20140528news-loriutm_campaign=Contentsf3097303=1 The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but Can they suffer? Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Should animals be treated as people?
On 29 May 2014 13:43, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/28/2014 6:28 PM, LizR wrote: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/innovators/2014/05/140528- lori-marino-dolphins-animals-personhood-blackfish-taiji- science-world/?utm_source=Twitterutm_medium=Socialutm_ content=link_tw20140528news-loriutm_campaign=Contentsf3097303=1 The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but Can they suffer? Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) Ah, so consciousness *is* both more difficult and more important than intelligence! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Should animals be treated as people?
On 5/28/2014 6:48 PM, LizR wrote: On 29 May 2014 13:43, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/28/2014 6:28 PM, LizR wrote: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/innovators/2014/05/140528-lori-marino-dolphins-animals-personhood-blackfish-taiji-science-world/?utm_source=Twitterutm_medium=Socialutm_content=link_tw20140528news-loriutm_campaign=Contentsf3097303=1 The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but Can they suffer? Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) Ah, so consciousness /is/ both more difficult and more important than intelligence! I don't think it's more difficult - I think some very unintelligent animals can suffer. Of course there are different kinds of suffering. I doubt that suffering pain requires human-like consciousness, but suffering existential angst probably does. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Should animals be treated as people?
On 29 May 2014 13:56, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/28/2014 6:48 PM, LizR wrote: On 29 May 2014 13:43, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/28/2014 6:28 PM, LizR wrote: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/innovators/2014/05/140528-lori-marino-dolphins-animals-personhood-blackfish-taiji-science-world/?utm_source=Twitterutm_medium=Socialutm_content=link_tw20140528news-loriutm_campaign=Contentsf3097303=1 The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but Can they suffer? Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) Ah, so consciousness *is* both more difficult and more important than intelligence! I don't think it's more difficult - I think some very unintelligent animals can suffer. Of course there are different kinds of suffering. I doubt that suffering pain requires human-like consciousness, but suffering existential angst probably does. No one mentioned huiman like consciousness (well, no one except you). Consciousness is required for suffering, and we have very little idea which animals are conscious. Whereas we can tell how intelligent animals are by looking at their behaviour - their ability to learn and to deal with novel situations etc. Hence consciousness is more difficult to detect than intelligence. And if one believes your quote, it's also more important. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Should animals be treated as people?
On 5/28/2014 7:14 PM, LizR wrote: On 29 May 2014 13:56, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/28/2014 6:48 PM, LizR wrote: On 29 May 2014 13:43, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/28/2014 6:28 PM, LizR wrote: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/innovators/2014/05/140528-lori-marino-dolphins-animals-personhood-blackfish-taiji-science-world/?utm_source=Twitterutm_medium=Socialutm_content=link_tw20140528news-loriutm_campaign=Contentsf3097303=1 The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but Can they suffer? Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) Ah, so consciousness /is/ both more difficult and more important than intelligence! I don't think it's more difficult - I think some very unintelligent animals can suffer. Of course there are different kinds of suffering. I doubt that suffering pain requires human-like consciousness, but suffering existential angst probably does. No one mentioned huiman like consciousness (well, no one except you). I mentioned it to raise the point that there are different kinds of consciousness and that implies different kinds of potential suffering. Even simple animals are conscious of the status of their bodies and so they can suffer pain - but probably not boredom. Consciousness is required for suffering, and we have very little idea which animals are conscious. Whereas we can tell how intelligent animals are by looking at their behaviour - their ability to learn and to deal with novel situations etc. Hence consciousness is more difficult to detect than intelligence. And if one believes your quote, it's also more important. Yes, I think it is more important. We would have no ethical qualms about destroying an intelligent computer if we thought it was not conscious (e.g. Watson). But I think it's impossible to completely separate the two. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Should animals be treated as people?
On 29 May 2014 15:07, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/28/2014 7:14 PM, LizR wrote: On 29 May 2014 13:56, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/28/2014 6:48 PM, LizR wrote: On 29 May 2014 13:43, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 5/28/2014 6:28 PM, LizR wrote: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/innovators/2014/05/140528-lori-marino-dolphins-animals-personhood-blackfish-taiji-science-world/?utm_source=Twitterutm_medium=Socialutm_content=link_tw20140528news-loriutm_campaign=Contentsf3097303=1 The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but Can they suffer? Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) Ah, so consciousness *is* both more difficult and more important than intelligence! I don't think it's more difficult - I think some very unintelligent animals can suffer. Of course there are different kinds of suffering. I doubt that suffering pain requires human-like consciousness, but suffering existential angst probably does. No one mentioned huiman like consciousness (well, no one except you). I mentioned it to raise the point that there are different kinds of consciousness and that implies different kinds of potential suffering. Even simple animals are conscious of the status of their bodies and so they can suffer pain - but probably not boredom. True (although it doesn't obviously support the statement I don't think it's more difficult) Consciousness is required for suffering, and we have very little idea which animals are conscious. Whereas we can tell how intelligent animals are by looking at their behaviour - their ability to learn and to deal with novel situations etc. Hence consciousness is more difficult to detect than intelligence. And if one believes your quote, it's also more important. Yes, I think it is more important. We would have no ethical qualms about destroying an intelligent computer if we thought it was not conscious (e.g. Watson). But I think it's impossible to completely separate the two. If you can have an intelligent but not conscious computer it is. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
