Re: [Finale] [OT] plural of rubato = rubati?
In Italian rubato is indeed a past participle of the verb rubare, which means stolen. However, as a musical term, here in Italy, it is not treated as a verb and not pluralized, the same way one wouldn't pluralize glissando, rallentando, allegro, moderato, etc. Nouns like instrument names are obviously pluralized so pianoforte will change in pianoforti, violino in violini, controfagotto in controfagotti. Giovanni Giovanni Andreani www.giovanniandreani.eu Not to mention using pianoforti for two or more, er, pianos! Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com - Original Message - From: John Howell john.how...@vt.edu To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] [OT] plural of rubato = rubati? At 5:16 PM -0700 3/24/11, Mark D Lew wrote: does this word actually exist? Technically, yes, it does exist. In Italian, rubato is an adjective, and if that adjective happens to be modifying a plural (and masculine) noun, it does indeed become rubati (as in gioielli rubati). However, you are intending it as a noun. Rubato only becomes a noun in English, so if you want to pluralize it, you should give it an English plural: rubatos. Agreed that one should use the English plural, but I would argue that it is STILL being used as an adjective, even though the noun it modifies is understood and unstated: tempo rubato; tempi rubati. And I think my mom, the language teacher, would have argued similarly. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] plural of rubato = rubati?
Hi Jef, If you expect consistency from language, you'll be constantly disappointed. In English, we regularize foreign loan-words unless we belong to a lexical community which puts a premium on using the appropriate foreign endings, as a kind of status-within-the-group signifier. (Classical music is a *clear* example of such a community.) But even within those communities, it's impossible to resist the tendency towards regularization over time. Even 20 years ago, celli was not uncommon, but now only the insufferably pretentious would use that term. I haven't seen sola (instead of solo) when applied to viola in quite a while (we're talking new scores here, obviously). When wearing my copyists' hat, had to learn to let go of the impulse to correct this when the composer called for a viola solo, because they would *invariably* overrule me when I changed solo to sola. Regarding your two examples, since in spoken use they are invariably abbreviated, the plural forms used most frequently are pizzes and glisses. But I wouldn't really have a problem with using pizzicatos or glissandos even in written English. I've not no particular attachment to preserving the irregular in either case. I still use leapt though, and wince when I hear leaped.Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 25 Mar 2011, at 12:08 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote: pizzicati, glissandi... rubatos? seriously? i'm not a linguist, but piano and violin are english words with relation to their italian equivalents (from which thye might have sprung) but gliss and pizz are clearly borrowed italian words and are generally (but not exclusively) used in plural using their italian form. on or around 18:59 -0400 3/24/11, Darcy James Argue seems to have said: Fercrissakes regularize. If you need to pluralize, use rubatos. You know, like pianos, violins, and all the other regularized musical terms we use every day. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] plural of rubato = rubati?
On Mar 24, 2011, at 7:44 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Regularization of foreign loan-words happens over time regardless of lexical category. Irregular forms have to be in frequent use and/ or have to signify status within a lexical community in order to be preserved -- which is why, for instance, alumni and syllabi are still in circulation, but virtually no one refers to more than one sports stadium as stadia. Actually, quite a few baseball geeks like to use stadia. I also see premia sometimes. These are reinvented forms with no consistent history in the language, and in my mind they are -- as you said in another post about celli -- insufferably pretentious. Which loan words keep their foreign plurals is not just random. There's a solid logic to it, primarily related to whether the word is loaned along with its plural and remains a noun, or whether it comes only as a singular and has some sort of transformation of meaning. Alumnus and syllabus mean in English roughly the same as what they meant in Latin. Stadium does not. And indeed when stadium is used in its original sense (a unit of distance) the preferred plural is indeed stadia. It also matters a lot when the word was loaned and whether it was primarily used in science or if it spread to general usage. Several words take a different plural for different meanings, and invariably it is the more technical meaning that keeps the foreign plural (eg, indexes/indices, focuses/foci, etc). mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] plural of rubato = rubati?
Darcy wrote: Even 20 years ago, celli was not uncommon It was about twenty years ago (OK, 30) that I played under a conductor for whom English was *not* his first language, though he was quite competent in it. He would often look to his right and ask something of the cellis. :-) Andrew Levin ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] plural of rubato = rubati?
At 10:06 AM -0700 3/25/11, Mark D Lew wrote: Alumnus and syllabus mean in English roughly the same as what they meant in Latin. As do the feminine alumna and the plural alumni, which are still universally used and understood. Syllabi is commonly used in the academy, although it ALMOST seems pretentious. And then there are those pesky words that seem to be in the middle of their transition: data (always plural) and datum (singular); and even worse, media (always plural) and medium (singular). For some borrowed and assimilated words singers have to make choices (unless a composer has made it perfectly clear): ro-DEH-oh (Spanish) or RO-dee-oh (ignorant American!). John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] plural of rubato = rubati?
On Fri Mar 25, at FridayMar 25 12:24 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Even 20 years ago, celli was not uncommon, but now only the insufferably pretentious would use that term. I dunno, I hear conductors say, Violas and celli all the time, which makes me giggle at the inconsistency. But maybe conductors ARE insufferably pretentious! Yeah, that would make sense. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: [OT] plural of rubato = rubati?
Adding, hu geeb uh fahk? Expletives deleted, isn't it time we moved beyond the egotistical false pride of insisting that expressions be in Italian? Or that dynamics be in abbreviated Italian with extended greater than or less than signs? This is not an attack on the Italians or on time-honored traditional practices. If German or French composers wish to notate in their native languages for native players, why not? The purpose of notation is to communicate as directly and to make the music as easily performable as possible for the players. If most of the players speak English, why not use English for expressions and dynamics? The international language is now English, for better or worse. There is nothing wrong with loud, louder, loudest or soft, softer, softest on the page with an expression like birds chirping in the distance. Visual text and notation can be very helpful. I'm not advocating music notation as post-modern art as much avant garde music does but there are easy and difficult ways to notate. there are notation methods that keep the page clear and readable and others that leave it cluttered. For example, you can notate a piano part with ties between a measure of eighth notes indicating to hold the notes down or you can use the largest note values possible and use a pedal marking with a text hold down notes. The choice should be to communicate the music clearly to the players so that they can communicate the music to the listeners. -- http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] plural of rubato = rubati?
Yes it's about communication - we could all use our own languages and that would communicate well to those who speak our language but what about those who don't speak our language? Maybe we could invent a new language that we could all learn so that we could all understand all the instructions? (or maybe we could use the expressions that originated in Italian but which have, over the years, become the standard musical language) For example, would someone explain to me exactly how I should play the passage I once saw which had the marking, Luscheroso? (And before you think me a fool, yes, I do know what it means, but do you?) On 25 March 2011 21:37, gplw...@letterboxes.org wrote: Adding, hu geeb uh fahk? Expletives deleted, isn't it time we moved beyond the egotistical false pride of insisting that expressions be in Italian? -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] plural of rubato = rubati?
On Fri Mar 25, at FridayMar 25 5:37 PM, gplw...@letterboxes.org wrote: isn't it time we moved beyond the egotistical false pride of insisting that expressions be in Italian? Or that dynamics be in abbreviated Italian with extended greater than or less than signs? I don't happen to think it's egotistical or false pride. All the musicians I know instantly recognise P, F, and various wedges as having musical meaning with no further translation or explanation necessary, and will give me exactly what I need when I write them. Loud takes up more room on the page and is slower for a musician to read than F. Even more so if English is not his first language. Wedges indicate rhythmically exact starting and stopping places for the changes of volume with remarkable efficiency. I have no problems with expressions like Gradually build to C where C is a rehearsal letter. But why substitute an expression that nobody has seen before for one that everyone knows? I take similar exception to your replacement for pedal markings. The text hold down notes is less detailed, slower to read, and ultimately less effective than a standard pedal marking or slurs. BTW, we're among friends here. How about a handle or a name? Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] [OT] plural of rubato = rubati?
John, I disagree. RO-dee-oh is an American pronunciation of a Spanish (Mexican) word. There are many examples of such borrowed words that are not commonly pronounced as they would be in Mexico or Spain: Animas as in the Animas River; Santa Fe, Santa Rosa, Amarillo, Lamesa, Tucumcari, chile (chili) etc. -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of John Howell As do the feminine alumna and the plural alumni, which are still universally used and understood. Syllabi is commonly used in the academy, although it ALMOST seems pretentious. And then there are those pesky words that seem to be in the middle of their transition: data (always plural) and datum (singular); and even worse, media (always plural) and medium (singular). For some borrowed and assimilated words singers have to make choices (unless a composer has made it perfectly clear): ro-DEH-oh (Spanish) or RO-dee-oh (ignorant American!). John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] plural of rubato = rubati?
I would have to agree with Dalvin re: the pronunciation of RO-dee-oh. There's nothing ignorant about it. Y'ever been out west? Regional pronunciation does not connote ignorance; after all: the word has been virtually re-defined as a uniquely Western US event over a century-and-a-half. Not the same as its Spanish antecedent - event OR pronunciation. It's RO-dee-oh! Just as it's Ne-VAA-da and NEVER Ne-VAH-da! And I would dare say that anyone - specially any 'them green dude Eastern fellers - even that-there Copland-feller (who I understand were born in NOO YORK CITY) who pronounces it any way OTHER than RO-dee-oh don't know what he's talkin' about!! Although: I DO smile when I write that, pard'ner! And now: hunkerin' back down in the dark. Les Marsden (209) 966-6988 (H) (559) 708-6027 (Cell - Emergency only) 7145 Snyder Creek Road Mariposa, CA 95338-9641 Trustee Central, California Democratic Council Mariposa County Planning Commissioner, District 5 Chair, Mariposa County Democratic Central Committee Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra Past two-term President, Economic Development Corporation of Mariposa County - Original Message - From: dalvin boone dalvin.bo...@avenuebroadband.com To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 6:42 PM Subject: RE: [Finale] [OT] plural of rubato = rubati? John, I disagree. RO-dee-oh is an American pronunciation of a Spanish (Mexican) word. There are many examples of such borrowed words that are not commonly pronounced as they would be in Mexico or Spain: Animas as in the Animas River; Santa Fe, Santa Rosa, Amarillo, Lamesa, Tucumcari, chile (chili) etc. -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of John Howell As do the feminine alumna and the plural alumni, which are still universally used and understood. Syllabi is commonly used in the academy, although it ALMOST seems pretentious. And then there are those pesky words that seem to be in the middle of their transition: data (always plural) and datum (singular); and even worse, media (always plural) and medium (singular). For some borrowed and assimilated words singers have to make choices (unless a composer has made it perfectly clear): ro-DEH-oh (Spanish) or RO-dee-oh (ignorant American!). John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] plural of rubato = rubati?
...but it is sometimes neVAYduh, MO (with either mizzuREE or mizzurUH trailing along) Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com - Original Message - From: MSO m...@sti.net To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] [OT] plural of rubato = rubati? I would have to agree with Dalvin re: the pronunciation of RO-dee-oh. There's nothing ignorant about it. Y'ever been out west? Regional pronunciation does not connote ignorance; after all: the word has been virtually re-defined as a uniquely Western US event over a century-and-a-half. Not the same as its Spanish antecedent - event OR pronunciation. It's RO-dee-oh! Just as it's Ne-VAA-da and NEVER Ne-VAH-da! And I would dare say that anyone - specially any 'them green dude Eastern fellers - even that-there Copland-feller (who I understand were born in NOO YORK CITY) who pronounces it any way OTHER than RO-dee-oh don't know what he's talkin' about!! Although: I DO smile when I write that, pard'ner! And now: hunkerin' back down in the dark. Les Marsden (209) 966-6988 (H) (559) 708-6027 (Cell - Emergency only) 7145 Snyder Creek Road Mariposa, CA 95338-9641 Trustee Central, California Democratic Council Mariposa County Planning Commissioner, District 5 Chair, Mariposa County Democratic Central Committee Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra Past two-term President, Economic Development Corporation of Mariposa County - Original Message - From: dalvin boone dalvin.bo...@avenuebroadband.com To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 6:42 PM Subject: RE: [Finale] [OT] plural of rubato = rubati? John, I disagree. RO-dee-oh is an American pronunciation of a Spanish (Mexican) word. There are many examples of such borrowed words that are not commonly pronounced as they would be in Mexico or Spain: Animas as in the Animas River; Santa Fe, Santa Rosa, Amarillo, Lamesa, Tucumcari, chile (chili) etc. -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of John Howell As do the feminine alumna and the plural alumni, which are still universally used and understood. Syllabi is commonly used in the academy, although it ALMOST seems pretentious. And then there are those pesky words that seem to be in the middle of their transition: data (always plural) and datum (singular); and even worse, media (always plural) and medium (singular). For some borrowed and assimilated words singers have to make choices (unless a composer has made it perfectly clear): ro-DEH-oh (Spanish) or RO-dee-oh (ignorant American!). John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
