Re: [Finale] . Interesting article on battle over copyright for "We Shall Overcome"

[Michael Dutka]

I sang with the New York Choral Society when we were the backup chorus for
his Carnegie Hall concerts.

Needless to say, we prepared like crazy for our first rehearsal with him.
Somehow, our first song didn't go well, and we were looking around,
wondering what was happening. Bob deCormier, our conductor, stopped the
rehearsal, and Pete Seeger told us he'd been working really hard on the
Clearwater Festival, he hadn't had a chance to practice as much as he
needed to be as prepared as we wanted to be, and he wanted to  apologize to
each and every one of us.

We just gave him a standing ovation. Not a guy who took himself too
seriously.

On Aug 11, 2017 1:00 PM, <finale-requ...@shsu.edu> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Interesting article on battle over copyright for "We Shall
  Overcome" (Raymond Horton)
   2. Re: Interesting article on battle over copyright for "We
  Shall Overcome" (Christopher Smith)
   3. Re: Interesting article on battle over copyright for "We
  Shall Overcome" (Chuck Israels)
   4. Re: Interesting article on battle over copyright for "We
  Shall Overcome" (David H. Bailey)


--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 19:19:15 -0400
From: Raymond Horton <horton.raym...@gmail.com>
Subject: [Finale] Interesting article on battle over copyright for "We
Shall   Overcome"
To: orchestral...@yahoogroups.com, finale@shsu.edu,
"methodistmusici...@listbox.com" <methodistmusici...@listbox.com>
Message-ID:

Re: [Finale] Interesting article on battle over copyright for "We Shall Overcome"

[Chuck Israels]

Just to be clear, Pete’s manager, Harold Levanthal, was one of the best — never 
part of the bean counter problem.  He was an extraordinarily decent and 
principled man.

Chuck


> On Aug 11, 2017, at 3:12 AM, David H. Bailey  wrote:
> 
> On 8/10/2017 8:01 PM, Chuck Israels wrote:
>> Interesting — and the description of Pete Seeger as a humble, generous, and 
>> well-meaning person certainly parallels my experience with him.  I feel as 
>> if I practically grew up with him - singing and playing the guitar on stage 
>> with him at 10 or 12 years old and having him visit our home many times in 
>> the ensuing years.  I can’t imagine Pete himself making an issue over 
>> ownership of what seems to me to be something that clearly belongs in the 
>> public domain. I often find the business of music disturbingly venal as soon 
>> as non-musicians get involved.
> 
> I agree with your impression of Pete Seeger -- I remember hearing or reading 
> (I can't remember if it was part of his between-songs patter in a live 
> recording or printed in an interview) him recount the tale of copyrighting 
> the song "Where Have All The Flowers Gone."  He had written it and performed 
> it and others had picked it up and performed it and recorded it and one day 
> his manager heard it on the radio and asked him "Didn't you write that?"  
> Pete said "Yes."  The manager asked if Pete had copyrighted it and Pete said 
> he didn't think so.  So the manager registered the copyright for him.  I 
> don't think Pete was all that interested in the business end of things.
> 
> And I agree with your final statement -- once the bean counters get hold of 
> things, the nice collegial feeling of the music world is ruined.
> 
> 
> -- 
> *
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com

Chuck Israels
cisra...@comcast.net
(360) 201-3434

8831 SE 12th Ave.
Portland OR 97202






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Re: [Finale] Interesting article on battle over copyright for "We Shall Overcome"

[David H. Bailey]

On 8/10/2017 8:01 PM, Chuck Israels wrote:
> Interesting — and the description of Pete Seeger as a humble, generous, and 
> well-meaning person certainly parallels my experience with him.  I feel as if 
> I practically grew up with him - singing and playing the guitar on stage with 
> him at 10 or 12 years old and having him visit our home many times in the 
> ensuing years.  I can’t imagine Pete himself making an issue over ownership 
> of what seems to me to be something that clearly belongs in the public 
> domain. I often find the business of music disturbingly venal as soon as 
> non-musicians get involved.
> 

I agree with your impression of Pete Seeger -- I remember hearing or 
reading (I can't remember if it was part of his between-songs patter in 
a live recording or printed in an interview) him recount the tale of 
copyrighting the song "Where Have All The Flowers Gone."  He had written 
it and performed it and others had picked it up and performed it and 
recorded it and one day his manager heard it on the radio and asked him 
"Didn't you write that?"  Pete said "Yes."  The manager asked if Pete 
had copyrighted it and Pete said he didn't think so.  So the manager 
registered the copyright for him.  I don't think Pete was all that 
interested in the business end of things.

And I agree with your final statement -- once the bean counters get hold 
of things, the nice collegial feeling of the music world is ruined.


-- 
*
David H. Bailey
dhbaile...@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] Interesting article on battle over copyright for "We Shall Overcome"

[Chuck Israels]

Interesting — and the description of Pete Seeger as a humble, generous, and 
well-meaning person certainly parallels my experience with him.  I feel as if I 
practically grew up with him - singing and playing the guitar on stage with him 
at 10 or 12 years old and having him visit our home many times in the ensuing 
years.  I can’t imagine Pete himself making an issue over ownership of what 
seems to me to be something that clearly belongs in the public domain. I often 
find the business of music disturbingly venal as soon as non-musicians get 
involved.

Chuck


> On Aug 10, 2017, at 4:19 PM, Raymond Horton  wrote:
> 
> Interesting article on battle over copyright for "We Shall Overcome"
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/music/effort-free-civil-rights-anthem-120722464.html
> 
> Raymond Horton
> Composer, Arranger
> Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church
> Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016
> Visit us at rayhortonmusic.com
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Chuck Israels
cisra...@comcast.net
(360) 201-3434

8831 SE 12th Ave.
Portland OR 97202






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Re: [Finale] Interesting article on battle over copyright for "We Shall Overcome"

[Christopher Smith]

Okay, but apparently if you use the lyric “we will overcome” and “down in my 
heart” instead of “we shall” and “deep in my heart”, you are good to go; this 
version is in the public domain still.

Whew.

Christopher


> On Aug 10, 2017, at 7:19 PM, Raymond Horton  wrote:
> 
> Interesting article on battle over copyright for "We Shall Overcome"
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/music/effort-free-civil-rights-anthem-120722464.html
> 
> Raymond Horton
> Composer, Arranger
> Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church
> Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016
> Visit us at rayhortonmusic.com
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[Finale] Interesting article on battle over copyright for "We Shall Overcome"

[Raymond Horton]

Interesting article on battle over copyright for "We Shall Overcome"

https://www.yahoo.com/music/effort-free-civil-rights-anthem-120722464.html

Raymond Horton
Composer, Arranger
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church
Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016
Visit us at rayhortonmusic.com
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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[John Howell]

At 4:29 PM -0400 9/30/09, dhbailey wrote:
And I can't think of very many musical situations where you would 
want some of the musicians to be in one key and others to be in a 
different key, even if enharmonically equivalent.


Au contraire!  Writing for a university show ensemble with a 12-piece 
showband, we always put the music in the right keys for the voices, 
which often put the alto and bari in multiple sharps.  I always 
crossed over to give them fewer flats rather than more sharps, and 
never had a problem with it.


I agree with Aaron that even if a person wants two different key 
signatures, it should definitely be the users' decision, not the 
program's.


Absolutely!  But most of that writing was in the days of hand 
copying, and sometimes my mind refused to cooperate!


P.S. by the time you're writing music with 7 flats -- it's for 
advanced musicians who should be equally comfortable playing in 
flats or sharps.


I have to say that my alto and bari players learned to take multiple 
sharps in stride and sightread them just fine, and these were college 
students who likely were NOT music majors.  They just got used to it.


John


--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts  Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

We never play anything the same way once.  Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[John Howell]

At 2:59 PM -0400 9/30/09, Phil Daley wrote:
From what I have seen, string instruments are more comfortable 
playing in sharps.


True (although not responsive to the question), but for two very 
specific reasons.


1.  There are more open strings available in sharp keys.  You start 
losing open strings with the 2nd flat, but not until the 3rd sharp. 
Not so important in classical music, VERY important in bluegrass and 
traditional Old Time.


2.  Playing in 6 flats forces us to sightread in half position, which 
is cramped and a bit awkward.  Playing in 6 sharps lets us sightread 
in regular 1st position (actually first-and-a-half position), and is 
more comfortable.  They should be exactly equivalent, but for string 
players they are not.


However, rules of thumb have their limitations.  Orchestral string 
players must and do play in any key that's put in front of us. 
There's a long section in the middle of 1812 that's in 6 flats (and 
boring as heck!).




Trombones are more comfortable playing in flats.


Of course.  The instruments are built in a flat key, so the 1st 
position notes are all solid in flat keys up to Fbs.  But trombones 
can play in any key (as can any instrument, give or take bluegrass 
banjo).  Those rules of thumb are valid for beginners, and to a 
slight extent for intermediate players.  It's more a matter of their 
never seeing extreme keys on the other side than not being able to 
play them.


John


--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts  Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

We never play anything the same way once.  Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[dhbailey]

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre wrote:

And advanced musicians also will understand that a Db and a C# is the same 
during instructions. The number of sharps and flats shall always be kept as low 
as possible.



I agree that the number of sharps and flats shall always be 
kept as low as possible in principle, but one also has to 
take into account the number of changes from one key to 
another key.  In the work in question, the modulation is 
from Cb to Ab -- which only changes 3 of the accidentals in 
the key signature.  If the Cb section were to be written in 
B, then there would be 9 changes of accidentals (5 sharps to 
be naturalized plus 4 flats to be added), with some notes 
which had been sharps becoming flats.  So to Klaus's rule 
I would add the following corollary:


While keeping the number of flats and sharps as low as 
possible, also take into account any key changes and select 
the keys on either side of the change depending on how many 
pitches would be affected by the change and keep the 
affected pitches to a minimum.




--
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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RE: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[Richard Yates]

 [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of John Howell
 From what I have seen, string instruments are more 
 comfortable playing 
 in sharps.
 
 True (although not responsive to the question), but for two 
 very specific reasons.
 
 1.  There are more open strings available in sharp keys.  You 
 start losing open strings with the 2nd flat, but not until 
 the 3rd sharp. 

Nice observation. Hadn't thought of it that way. Even more true for guitar,
on which you lose an open string with the first flat and every one after
that down to c flat (Yah! It's an open string!).

Also, on a string instrument, you can always sharp a note by going up on the
same string while flatting often requires moving to a different string. 

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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[arabushk]

I suspect the A# major triad(s) in my brass quartet gave the players
involved a chance to cash in some practive routines that they don't get to
redeem very often!

ajr

 At 4:29 PM -0400 9/30/09, dhbailey wrote:
And I can't think of very many musical situations where you would
want some of the musicians to be in one key and others to be in a
different key, even if enharmonically equivalent.

 Au contraire!  Writing for a university show ensemble with a 12-piece
 showband, we always put the music in the right keys for the voices,
 which often put the alto and bari in multiple sharps.  I always
 crossed over to give them fewer flats rather than more sharps, and
 never had a problem with it.

I agree with Aaron that even if a person wants two different key
signatures, it should definitely be the users' decision, not the
program's.

 Absolutely!  But most of that writing was in the days of hand
 copying, and sometimes my mind refused to cooperate!

P.S. by the time you're writing music with 7 flats -- it's for
advanced musicians who should be equally comfortable playing in
flats or sharps.

 I have to say that my alto and bari players learned to take multiple
 sharps in stride and sightread them just fine, and these were college
 students who likely were NOT music majors.  They just got used to it.

 John


 --
 John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
 Virginia Tech Department of Music
 College of Liberal Arts  Human Sciences
 Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
 Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
 http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

 We never play anything the same way once.  Shelly Manne's definition
 of jazz musicians.
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[Finale] Interesting behavior

[Carl Dershem]

I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C-Flat) 
in the middle.  Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 sharps (B).


FinWin2k4

Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that?  And if so, why the 
guitar and bass, but not the piano?  And not the trombones?


Very interesting.

cd
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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[dhbailey]

Carl Dershem wrote:
I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C-Flat) 
in the middle.  Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 sharps 
(B).


FinWin2k4

Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that?  And if so, why the 
guitar and bass, but not the piano?  And not the trombones?


Very interesting.

cd


Maybe the programmers thought that guitarists and bassists 
can't actually read the music so it won't matter?  :-)


There's no logical reason for that to happen -- what happens 
if you transpose the guitar and bass parts chromatically?


--
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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{Fraud?} {Disarmed} Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre]

Actually it speaks for Final being rational.
Klaus

--- On Wed, 9/30/09, Carl Dershem ders...@cox.net wrote:

From: Carl Dershem ders...@cox.net
Subject: [Finale] Interesting behavior
To: finale@shsu.edu
Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 7:40 PM

I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C-Flat) in the 
middle.  Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 sharps (B).

FinWin2k4

Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that?  And if so, why the guitar 
and bass, but not the piano?  And not the trombones?

Very interesting.

cd
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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[Phil Daley]

From what I have seen, string instruments are more comfortable playing in 
sharps.


Trombones are more comfortable playing in flats.


At 9/30/2009 01:40 PM, Carl Dershem wrote:

I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C-Flat)
in the middle.  Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 sharps (B).

FinWin2k4

Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that?  And if so, why the
guitar and bass, but not the piano?  And not the trombones?

Very interesting.



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{Fraud?} {Disarmed} Re: {Fraud?} {Disarmed} Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre]

Why did my posting get the prefux of {Fraud?} {Disarmed}?
I wouldn’t be able to post if not  being a legit member.
My point of view isn’r exotic at all. Except for a very few situations of 
modulating to a dominant key or a parallel minor it hardly ever furthers 
reading to notate music with more than 6 sharps or 6 flats.
When i played bass trombone in a British style brass band (the only instrument 
written in bass clef concert in that type of scoring) I sometimes played in E 
major, while the Bb instruments played in written Gb and the Eb instruments in 
written Db.
Klaus (no need to sign my full name, as it comes with the mail address)

--- On Wed, 9/30/09, Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre yorkmaster...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre yorkmaster...@yahoo.com
Subject: {Fraud?} {Disarmed} Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
To: finale@shsu.edu
Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 8:27 PM

Actually it speaks for Final being rational.
Klaus

--- On Wed, 9/30/09, Carl Dershem ders...@cox.net wrote:

From: Carl Dershem ders...@cox.net
Subject: [Finale] Interesting behavior
To: finale@shsu.edu
Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 7:40 PM

I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C-Flat) in the 
middle.  Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 sharps (B).

FinWin2k4

Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that?  And if so, why the guitar 
and bass, but not the piano?  And not the trombones?

Very interesting.

cd
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RE: [SPAM] Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[Richard Yates]

 
 Carl Dershem wrote:
  I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 
 flats (C-Flat) 
  in the middle.  Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 
  sharps (B).
  
  FinWin2k4
  
  Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that?  And if so, why 
  the guitar and bass, but not the piano?  And not the trombones?
  
  Very interesting.
  
  cd
 
 Maybe the programmers thought that guitarists and bassists 
 can't actually read the music so it won't matter?  :-)

If they thought this, they were half right.

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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[Christopher Smith]

Well, a few things come to mind.

First of all, is this an old file being opened in a newer version of  
Finale? We know opening older versions is SUPPOSED to be transparent,  
but in real life... I have stopped using templates made in old  
versions of Finale because they gave me so much trouble, and never  
the same problem twice, it seemed.


Could independent key sigs be enabled on the guit and bass staves?  
Never mind if YOU did it, just check. Sometimes these things check  
themselves. There is an option somewhere to wrap keys; could that be  
checked? maybe ONLY on those staves?


Sometimes I hit the metatool for some behaviour or other, then  
discover that I was in the Staff Tool, so a weird Staff Style gets  
assigned instead of what I wanted (this often causes me to make  
everything a bass clarinet transposition instead of respacing!) Could  
this have happened?


If all else fails, create a new file with all the correct staves in  
the current version of Finale and copy the file contents over. This  
often filters out the corruption, if the file is indeed corrupted.


Hold on, I just thought of something. Of COURSE guit and bass staves  
are transposing instruments! In the Staff Attirbutes, click  
Transposition, and UNcheck Simplify Key! I'm 99% sure that's it.


Christopher


On Wed Sep 30, at WednesdaySep 30 1:40 PM, Carl Dershem wrote:

I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C- 
Flat) in the middle.  Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are  
in 5 sharps (B).


FinWin2k4

Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that?  And if so, why  
the guitar and bass, but not the piano?  And not the trombones?


Very interesting.

cd
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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[arabushk]

Still, that should be the users' decisions and not Finale's.

ajr

  From what I have seen, string instruments are more comfortable playing in
 sharps.

 Trombones are more comfortable playing in flats.


 At 9/30/2009 01:40 PM, Carl Dershem wrote:

  I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C-Flat)
  in the middle.  Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 sharps
 (B).
  
  FinWin2k4
  
  Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that?  And if so, why the
  guitar and bass, but not the piano?  And not the trombones?
  
  Very interesting.
  
  

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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[dhbailey]

And I can't think of very many musical situations where you 
would want some of the musicians to be in one key and others 
to be in a different key, even if enharmonically equivalent. 
 Stop the rehearsal and say that Db needs to be changed 
and you'll get the guitarists and bassists scratching their 
heads and complaining that you don't know what you're 
talking about 'cause we don't have any stinking Db at all!


I agree with Aaron that even if a person wants two different 
key signatures, it should definitely be the users' decision, 
not the program's.


David H. Bailey

P.S. by the time you're writing music with 7 flats -- it's 
for advanced musicians who should be equally comfortable 
playing in flats or sharps.



arabu...@cowtown.net wrote:

Still, that should be the users' decisions and not Finale's.

ajr




--
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dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[Florence + Michael]

Guitar and bass are transposing instruments. I'm sure that if you  
look at the transposition options in the staff attributes, you'll  
find that simplify key is checked.


Michael

On 30 Sep 2009, at 19:40, Carl Dershem wrote:

I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C- 
Flat) in the middle.  Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are  
in 5 sharps (B).


FinWin2k4

Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that?  And if so, why  
the guitar and bass, but not the piano?  And not the trombones?


Very interesting.

cd
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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[Christopher Smith]

Yeah, it's just weird that if you choose a concert key of Cb (which  
IS perfectly standard; no double flats or anything. I remember  
practicing études in that key) then it gets changed ONLY on the  
octave transposing instruments like guit and bass by default.


Christopher


On Wed Sep 30, at WednesdaySep 30 5:16 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:

Simplify Key is designed to avoid unwieldy, nonstandard keys  
(like, ahem, Cb major, which IMO you *really* ought to reconsider)  
on transposing instruments. In the vast majority of cases, this is  
what you want. If a piece is in F# major, the clarinets should be  
written in Ab -- not G#!


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
djar...@earthlink.net
Brooklyn, NY



On 30 Sep 2009, at 4:56 PM, Carl Dershem wrote:

Hold on, I just thought of something. Of COURSE guit and bass  
staves are transposing instruments! In the Staff Attirbutes,  
click Transposition, and UNcheck Simplify Key! I'm 99% sure  
that's it.


Argh.  Yes, that was it.  Who put that in there, and why?  What a  
pain!


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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[Carl Dershem]

Darcy James Argue wrote:
Simplify Key is designed to avoid unwieldy, nonstandard keys (like, 
ahem, Cb major, which IMO you *really* ought to reconsider) on 
transposing instruments. In the vast majority of cases, this is what you 
want. If a piece is in F# major, the clarinets should be written in Ab 
-- not G#!


Cheers,

- Darcy


Not my choice - the piece in question goes through numerous keys, which 
the composer chose*.  I guess this is what you get for letting Canadians 
write jazz.  ;


Carl

*Bb, to G, to Cb, to Ab, to G, to Ab, to C.

At least the drum part is readable.

cd
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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[Darcy James Argue]

This is an issue I'd certainly bring up with the composer, i.e, Are  
you *sure* you absolutely need this passage written in Cb? Because  
it's going to be a whole lot easier to read in B.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
djar...@earthlink.net
Brooklyn, NY



On 30 Sep 2009, at 5:58 PM, Carl Dershem wrote:


Darcy James Argue wrote:
Simplify Key is designed to avoid unwieldy, nonstandard keys  
(like, ahem, Cb major, which IMO you *really* ought to reconsider)  
on transposing instruments. In the vast majority of cases, this is  
what you want. If a piece is in F# major, the clarinets should be  
written in Ab -- not G#!

Cheers,
- Darcy


Not my choice - the piece in question goes through numerous keys,  
which the composer chose*.  I guess this is what you get for letting  
Canadians write jazz.  ;


Carl

*Bb, to G, to Cb, to Ab, to G, to Ab, to C.

At least the drum part is readable.

cd
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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[Darcy James Argue]

In Carl's case, Cb is the only key that needs simplifying. When  
simplify is checked, Finale wraps anything more than six sharps or  
six flats.


Assuming standard bigband instrumentation, you've got only Bb and Cb  
instruments, and therefore your transposed keys are Ab and Db, both  
standard keys that don't need simplifying.


If he actually put the chart in B, then checking simplify key would  
avoid having the alto saxes in G# and the tenor saxes and trumpets in  
C#. Since he's got it in Cb, the transposed-key instruments don't need  
simplifying, but the concert-key instruments (guitar and bass) do!


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
djar...@earthlink.net
Brooklyn, NY



On 30 Sep 2009, at 5:42 PM, Christopher Smith wrote:

Yeah, it's just weird that if you choose a concert key of Cb (which  
IS perfectly standard; no double flats or anything. I remember  
practicing études in that key) then it gets changed ONLY on the  
octave transposing instruments like guit and bass by default.


Christopher


On Wed Sep 30, at WednesdaySep 30 5:16 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:

Simplify Key is designed to avoid unwieldy, nonstandard keys  
(like, ahem, Cb major, which IMO you *really* ought to reconsider)  
on transposing instruments. In the vast majority of cases, this is  
what you want. If a piece is in F# major, the clarinets should be  
written in Ab -- not G#!


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
djar...@earthlink.net
Brooklyn, NY



On 30 Sep 2009, at 4:56 PM, Carl Dershem wrote:

Hold on, I just thought of something. Of COURSE guit and bass  
staves are transposing instruments! In the Staff Attirbutes,  
click Transposition, and UNcheck Simplify Key! I'm 99% sure  
that's it.


Argh.  Yes, that was it.  Who put that in there, and why?  What a  
pain!


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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[Carl Dershem]

Darcy James Argue wrote:

Should have been Bb and *Eb* instruments, obviously.

Cheers,

- Darcy


Well, except for the Bari player, who is always a little off anyway.  ;

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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre]

And advanced musicians also will understand that a Db and a C# is the same 
during instructions. The number of sharps and flats shall always be kept as low 
as possible.

Klaus
--- On Wed, 9/30/09, dhbailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com wrote:

From: dhbailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
Subject: Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
To: finale@shsu.edu
Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 10:29 PM

And I can't think of very many musical situations where you would want some of 
the musicians to be in one key and others to be in a different key, even if 
enharmonically equivalent.  Stop the rehearsal and say that Db needs to be 
changed and you'll get the guitarists and bassists scratching their heads and 
complaining that you don't know what you're talking about 'cause we don't have 
any stinking Db at all!

I agree with Aaron that even if a person wants two different key signatures, it 
should definitely be the users' decision, not the program's.

David H. Bailey

P.S. by the time you're writing music with 7 flats -- it's for advanced 
musicians who should be equally comfortable playing in flats or sharps.


arabu...@cowtown.net wrote:
 Still, that should be the users' decisions and not Finale's.
 
 ajr
 


-- David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior

[Carl Dershem]

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre wrote:

And advanced musicians also will understand that a Db and a C# is the same 
during instructions. The number of sharps and flats shall always be kept as low 
as possible.

Klaus


I always teach my private students that, for example, Gb should be 
played/thought as one natural instead of six flats.  It's much easier.


cd
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[Finale] Interesting bit of spam this morning...

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

I got a music typesetting spam from India, and decided to have a look 
at the document:


 http://printclassicalmusic.com/files/sample.pdf

The document properties show no music fonts, and it being done in Adobe 
Illustrator. A big magnification shows that the symbols like sharps and 
flats are individually built.


Their home pages says they use a free program called ABC Plus 
(http://www.walshaw.plus.com/abc/). There are even big samples linked to 
that site like this Beethoven movement:


 http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/abcmusic/s7m2mp.pdf

Anybody ever try this program? It's command line, like Score.

Anyway, there are no rates on the spammer's webpage. I wonder... are we 
endangered? :)


Now back to work...

Dennis

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Re: [Finale] Interesting bit of spam this morning...

[dhbailey]

Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
I got a music typesetting spam from India, and decided to have a look 
at the document:


 http://printclassicalmusic.com/files/sample.pdf

The document properties show no music fonts, and it being done in Adobe 
Illustrator. A big magnification shows that the symbols like sharps and 
flats are individually built.


Their home pages says they use a free program called ABC Plus 
(http://www.walshaw.plus.com/abc/). There are even big samples linked to 
that site like this Beethoven movement:


 http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/abcmusic/s7m2mp.pdf

Anybody ever try this program? It's command line, like Score.

Anyway, there are no rates on the spammer's webpage. I wonder... are we 
endangered? :)


Now back to work...



You actually opened that attachment?  You're a braver man than I.

I simply deleted the message.  If I wanted to outsource my engraving 
off-shore, I'd buy a villa in some tropical paradise and hire myself to 
do my engraving.  :-)


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] Interesting bit of spam this morning...

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

dhbailey wrote, on 4/3/2008 3:48 PM:

You actually opened that attachment?  You're a braver man than I.


It wasn't an attachment. I never open those. I typed in the link shown 
from a text-only mail display, no clicking phishing links. :) Since I'm 
browsered up with Firefox and have the repertoire of blocking plugins 
and XSS alarms along with Komodo and resident Spybot-SD and the lastest 
patched Adobe reader, I can download anything to a nice quarantined 
directory and look at it after the automated scrubbing. It was indeed 
just an ordinary PDF.


If I wanted to outsource my engraving 
off-shore, I'd buy a villa in some tropical paradise and hire myself to 
do my engraving.  :-)


Hedonist. :)

Dennis



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RE: [Finale] Interesting bit of spam this morning...

[Owain Sutton]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
 Sent: 03 April 2008 21:46
 To: finale@shsu.edu
 Subject: Re: [Finale] Interesting bit of spam this morning...
 
 
 dhbailey wrote, on 4/3/2008 3:48 PM:
  You actually opened that attachment?  You're a braver man than I.
 
 It wasn't an attachment. I never open those. I typed in the 
 link shown 
 from a text-only mail display, no clicking phishing links. :) 
 Since I'm 
 browsered up with Firefox and have the repertoire of blocking plugins 
 and XSS alarms along with Komodo and resident Spybot-SD and 
 the lastest 
 patched Adobe reader, I can download anything to a nice quarantined 
 directory and look at it after the automated scrubbing. It was indeed 
 just an ordinary PDF.
 
  If I wanted to outsource my engraving
  off-shore, I'd buy a villa in some tropical paradise and 
 hire myself to 
  do my engraving.  :-)
 
 Hedonist. :)
 
 Dennis
 


Spam, hedonism, I don't care.  They're using 'dimin.', which I just
can't stand.

Owain


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[Finale] Interesting Finale nsmathematical music series.

[Noel Stoutenburg]

Friends,

I know I've written about this topic before, but bear with me a moment. 
The following is an incomplete number series


2135, –, 1392, 18367, 2882, 18841, 16586, 2744, 8036, 6492, 8691, 3394, 
–, 37682, 69095, 69138, 128695


the dashes representing known missing values. The significance of this 
series is that it is the size in Kilobytes of the downloads for WIN FIN 
updaters, in order


2kc, 2k1a (missing), 2k1b, 2k1c, 2k1d, 2k2, 2k3a, 2k4a, 2k4b, 2k5a, 
2k5b, 2k6a, 2k6b (missing), 2k6c, 2k7a, 2k7b, and 2k8a.


ns



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Re: [Finale] Interesting Finale nsmathematical music series.

[Barbara Touburg]

Does that indicate that there are more and more bugs they have fixed? :)

Noel Stoutenburg wrote:

Friends,

I know I've written about this topic before, but bear with me a moment. 
The following is an incomplete number series


2135, –, 1392, 18367, 2882, 18841, 16586, 2744, 8036, 6492, 8691, 3394, 
–, 37682, 69095, 69138, 128695


the dashes representing known missing values. The significance of this 
series is that it is the size in Kilobytes of the downloads for WIN FIN 
updaters, in order


2kc, 2k1a (missing), 2k1b, 2k1c, 2k1d, 2k2, 2k3a, 2k4a, 2k4b, 2k5a, 
2k5b, 2k6a, 2k6b (missing), 2k6c, 2k7a, 2k7b, and 2k8a.


ns



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Re: [Finale] Interesting Finale nsmathematical music series.

[Jari Williamsson]

Noel Stoutenburg wrote:

I know I've written about this topic before, but bear with me a moment. 
The following is an incomplete number series


2135, –, 1392, 18367, 2882, 18841, 16586, 2744, 8036, 6492, 8691, 3394, 
–, 37682, 69095, 69138, 128695


the dashes representing known missing values. The significance of this 
series is that it is the size in Kilobytes of the downloads for WIN FIN 
updaters, in order


2kc, 2k1a (missing), 2k1b, 2k1c, 2k1d, 2k2, 2k3a, 2k4a, 2k4b, 2k5a, 
2k5b, 2k6a, 2k6b (missing), 2k6c, 2k7a, 2k7b, and 2k8a.


So, what you show here is that a Finale updater is always between 1.5-8 
MB and the rest is dependent on whether updates to 
documentation/sound/etc are bundled or not?



Best regards,

Jari Williamsson
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Re: [Finale] Interesting Finale nsmathematical music series.

[Noel Stoutenburg]

Friends,

Responding to my observation about the sizes of updaters for WINFIN 
since 2k, Barbara asked



Does that indicate that there are more and more bugs they have fixed?


and Jari asked

So, what you show here is that a Finale updater is always between 
1.5-8 MB and the rest is dependent on whether updates to 
documentation/sound/etc are bundled or not?
I don't have any information about the number of bugs, or the 
complexity of patches needed to resolve each one, and how much involved 
changes to sound or documentation modules; my aim here is only to point 
out the increase in the file size of the Windows updaters, which since 
2k5 have about doubled each year. I don't intend this as anything but 
raw data of some interest, which needs further evaluation and analysis 
before it can be used as the base of any substantive conclusions.


Except, perhaps for one. Since I am still on download (and I realize 
that I am one of perhaps a dozen and a half people for whom this is the 
case), I was not able in seven attempts to successfully download the 2k8 
updater; the download aborted unsuccessfully each time. Now, I know that 
there are various file download management routines which can be used to 
deal with the issue, and I can use one of these, but I do think, in view 
of the increasing file size of updaters that it is appropriate that 
MakeMusic either review their decision to discontinue offering updaters 
on CD (made in 2k5), or to offer updaters in smaller pieces. For 
example, I notice from the readme that certain aspects of the updater 
involve saving of sound files, which I won't use; I'd have preferred to 
be able to omit downloading these parts.


[NB: I have already made arrangements to obtain the updater from someone 
else who has a faster connection than my 56K dial-up, and I expect in 
the near future, that I, too, will be dragged, if not kicking and 
screaming, then still with no great joy and exuberance, into the realm 
of high-speed internet connection.


ns
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Re: [Finale] Interesting Finale nsmathematical music series.

[Chuck Israels]

 I expect in the near future, that I, too, will be dragged, if not  
kicking and screaming, then still with no great joy and exuberance,  
into the realm of high-speed internet connection.




Come on Noel, it's fun!

Chuck


Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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Re: [Finale] Interesting Finale nsmathematical music series.

[David W. Fenton]

On 12 Dec 2007 at 18:48, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:

 For 
 example, I notice from the readme that certain aspects of the updater 
 involve saving of sound files, which I won't use; I'd have preferred to 
 be able to omit downloading these parts.

Several observations:

1. the size of the updater doesn't mean much unless you provide the 
size of the corresponding Finale.exe. My bet is that as Finale.exe 
got bigger, the updaters for Finale got bigger.

2. there are two methods of patching a program:

  a. replace it with a new version, OR

  b. write a program that rewrites the old version's files, including 
internally rewriting binary data.

It's substantially more difficult to do b), except when you are 
dealing with external files (such as DLLs or configuration files). A 
monolithic EXE file is very hard to patch properly by this method.

Dividing up the updater into fixes for the things you use would 
vastly increase the amount of time it would take to create and test 
the updater before releasing it to users.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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[Finale] Interesting List Lag

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Greetings -

I just received this:

At 9:00 AM -0500 8/27/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Your membership in the mailing list Finale has been disabled due to
excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated
04-Mar-2005.

March???

I guess there's a slight lag in the server software.

Regards,

Carlberg




mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .



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[Finale] Interesting List Lag

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Greetings -

I just received this:

At 9:00 AM -0500 8/27/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Your membership in the mailing list Finale has been disabled due to
excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated
04-Mar-2005.

March???

I guess there's a slight lag in the server software.

Regards,

Carlberg
Guanajuato, Mexico



mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .



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[Finale] Interesting...?

[Jari Williamsson]

Hello!
When looking at the referrals to Finale tips site (to see where the 
traffic comes from/goes to), I get quite a couple of hits from this site:
http://beta.sibelius.com/cgi-bin//chat/chat.pl

And the referrals from this site started on the very same day I 
announced the reviews and Hall of Fame.

Interesting...? Or not.
Best regards,
Jari Williamsson
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Re: [Finale] Interesting...?

[Johannes Gebauer]

Doesn't surprise me at all. But competition is good. I actually hope the 
hall of fame is going to be extended (and thanks Jari for the kind words 
about my work, I may extend the examples page with examples of my custom 
music font - not for sale, just to make that clear).

Perhaps we will soon see a similar page of Sibelius examples. Which I 
think would be a good thing.

Johannes
Jari Williamsson wrote:
Hello!
When looking at the referrals to Finale tips site (to see where the 
traffic comes from/goes to), I get quite a couple of hits from this site:
http://beta.sibelius.com/cgi-bin//chat/chat.pl

And the referrals from this site started on the very same day I 
announced the reviews and Hall of Fame.

Interesting...? Or not.
Best regards,
Jari Williamsson
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