Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
John Howell wrote: At 7:02 AM -0800 11/15/08, Richard Yates wrote: Yes, exponential. http://www.math.ucdavis.edu/~kouba/Math21BThomasDIRECTORY/Exponential.pdf Pipes arranged in a decreasing series of half tone steps do not increase in length by a constant amount (which would make the profile of their ends a straight line.) The difference in their lengths gets larger and larger and so makes a curved profile - an exponential curve. OK, my math-starved brain can follow that reasoning, but do they not increase in length by a constant PERCENTAGE (as opposed to a constant LENGTH)? I thought exponential dealt with powers of 10 or some such thing. (My daughter is the math whiz in the family; she certainly didn't get it from ME!) John Yes, the formula can be re-defined as a percentage increase, but it's a fixed percentage each time and not a fixed length. In other words (to keep things simple) 10% of 100 is a smaller amount (10) than 10% of 110 (11), which in turn is a smaller amount than 10% of 121 (12.1). Calculating 1/12th (percentage necessary to lengthen tube one half-step) of 100% (the amount which is added to the tube length to lower the pitch one octave) gives you the percentage each tube needs to be lengthened by to sound the next lower half-step. So you get the same curve, just with a different mathematical formula. Interestingly enough, the length of the pipes is determined by reversing that curve in the link (which defines the increase in frequency) so the lowest pipes are the longest ones and the highest pipes are the shortest ones, while the graph has the lowest frequencies the closest to zero and the highest frequencies furthest from zero. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
On Nov 15, 2008, at 5:09 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Only outdoor pipe organs would be able to have more than about 4 or 5 logarithmic pipes, I think (unless you started with rilly, rilly tiny mixture-type pipes), and wouldn't be terribly useful musically. Pitch rises logarithmically *relative to frequency,* but wavelength (which is what we are talking about here) does indeed rise exponentially. The lowest open flue pipe on most (indoor) organs, 32' C, is indeed 32' long, and sounds the bottom C on the piano. Successive octaves of C have lengths of 16', 8' (cello), 4' (viola), 2' (middle c), 1', 6, 3, and 1.5 (top note on piano). A stopped pipe, however, sounds an octave lower than its length would suggest, so that 32' C will be produced by a stopped pipe only 16' long, and some organs, indeed, go down to 64' C (16.351 Hz!), produced by a stopped pipe 32' long. A typical church or concert hall can easily accommodate a pipe of that length. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
On 16 Nov 2008 at 17:27, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Nov 15, 2008, at 5:09 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Only outdoor pipe organs would be able to have more than about 4 or 5 logarithmic pipes, I think (unless you started with rilly, rilly tiny mixture-type pipes), and wouldn't be terribly useful musically. Pitch rises logarithmically *relative to frequency,* but wavelength (which is what we are talking about here) does indeed rise exponentially. The lowest open flue pipe on most (indoor) organs, 32' C, is indeed 32' long, and sounds the bottom C on the piano. Successive octaves of C have lengths of 16', 8' (cello), 4' (viola), 2' (middle c), 1', 6, 3, and 1.5 (top note on piano). A stopped pipe, however, sounds an octave lower than its length would suggest, so that 32' C will be produced by a stopped pipe only 16' long, and some organs, indeed, go down to 64' C (16.351 Hz!), produced by a stopped pipe 32' long. A typical church or concert hall can easily accommodate a pipe of that length. Er, Andrew, I think you completely missed the joke. I was going with the mistaken logarithmic idea, and that, indeed, would *not* fit inside any building in existence without a vast reduction in the number of pipes. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Howell Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 6:09 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History At 2:03 PM -0500 11/14/08, Andrew Stiller wrote: James McKinnon, who taught a course on this at SUNY Buffalo back in the '70s, made the important distinction of realistic, but not real. A major example of this is a famous painting of St. Cecilia at the organ, in which the lengths of the pipes increase linearly from low to high instead of exponentially from high to low. Ah, but that's because the artist needed a diagonal line going in that direction! But exponential? I don't think so. Or perhaps I don't understand how exponential applies in this case. Yes, exponential. http://www.math.ucdavis.edu/~kouba/Math21BThomasDIRECTORY/Exponential.pdf Pipes arranged in a decreasing series of half tone steps do not increase in length by a constant amount (which would make the profile of their ends a straight line.) The difference in their lengths gets larger and larger and so makes a curved profile - an exponential curve. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
At 7:02 AM -0800 11/15/08, Richard Yates wrote: Yes, exponential. http://www.math.ucdavis.edu/~kouba/Math21BThomasDIRECTORY/Exponential.pdf Pipes arranged in a decreasing series of half tone steps do not increase in length by a constant amount (which would make the profile of their ends a straight line.) The difference in their lengths gets larger and larger and so makes a curved profile - an exponential curve. OK, my math-starved brain can follow that reasoning, but do they not increase in length by a constant PERCENTAGE (as opposed to a constant LENGTH)? I thought exponential dealt with powers of 10 or some such thing. (My daughter is the math whiz in the family; she certainly didn't get it from ME!) John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
Yes, exponential. http://www.math.ucdavis.edu/~kouba/Math21BThomasDIRECTORY/Expo nential.p df Pipes arranged in a decreasing series of half tone steps do not increase in length by a constant amount (which would make the profile of their ends a straight line.) The difference in their lengths gets larger and larger and so makes a curved profile - an exponential curve. OK, my math-starved brain can follow that reasoning, but do they not increase in length by a constant PERCENTAGE (as opposed to a constant LENGTH)? Yes, that's right. And so the amount of increase increases at every step. I thought exponential dealt with powers of 10 or some such thing. (My daughter is the math whiz in the family; she certainly didn't get it from ME!) It does have to do with powers but not of 10. Each half tone increases by the twelfth root of 2, which is 2 to the 0.08333 power, which is 1.0594. Multiply 1.0594 times itself 12 times (for 12 steps in the octave) and you get 2 (i.e. twice the frequency, or one octave). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
On Nov 15, 2008, at 9:47 AM, John Howell wrote: I thought exponential dealt with powers of 10 or some such thing It sounds to me like your remembering logarithm. In this context, exponential just means that the formula describing the line would have at least one exponent. Like Y equals something squared. Dick H ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
On Nov 14, 2008, at 9:08 PM, John Howell wrote: At 2:03 PM -0500 11/14/08, Andrew Stiller wrote: James McKinnon, who taught a course on this at SUNY Buffalo back in the '70s, made the important distinction of realistic, but not real. A major example of this is a famous painting of St. Cecilia at the organ, in which the lengths of the pipes increase linearly from low to high instead of exponentially from high to low. Ah, but that's because the artist needed a diagonal line going in that direction! But exponential? I don't think so. Or perhaps I don't understand how exponential applies in this case. The length of a tuned pipe is w = 1/(2^p * n), where w is the (wave)length of the pipe, p is the pitch in octaves above n, and n is an arbitrary reference pitch (440 Hz, e.g.). This is an exponential equation. And of course the portatif organ she's often shown with didn't exist in her time, but did exist in the artists' times! And she didn't like or play music either! Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
On 15 Nov 2008 at 11:26, Dick Hauser wrote: On Nov 15, 2008, at 9:47 AM, John Howell wrote: I thought exponential dealt with powers of 10 or some such thing It sounds to me like your remembering logarithm. In this context, exponential just means that the formula describing the line would have at least one exponent. Like Y equals something squared. Only outdoor pipe organs would be able to have more than about 4 or 5 logarithmic pipes, I think (unless you started with rilly, rilly tiny mixture-type pipes), and wouldn't be terribly useful musically. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
At 11:26 AM -0800 11/15/08, Dick Hauser wrote: On Nov 15, 2008, at 9:47 AM, John Howell wrote: I thought exponential dealt with powers of 10 or some such thing It sounds to me like your remembering logarithm. In this context, exponential just means that the formula describing the line would have at least one exponent. Like Y equals something squared. You're exactly right! Goes back to my years using a slide rule. (Anyone remember those?) John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
Kim, You might want to take a look at the RIDIM (Répertoire International d'Iconographie Musicale) homepage: http://www.ridim-deutschland.de/ Also some of the volumes of the series Musikgeschichte in Bildern (VEB Leipzig) are pretty good. I think Bowles has done one of the volumes. Eric Habsburger Verlag Frankfurt (Dr. Fiedler) www.habsburgerverlag.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 13.11.2008, at 23:02, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Hi everyone: A friend has let me borrow a book called Musical Ensembles in Festival Books: 1500 - 1800. by Edmund A. Bowles. It must have hundreds of woodcuts and drawings from original sources, that I've never seen before-- and I've read a lot of music history books. It's really impressive. I was told the study of musical iconography is an area of study, primarily in Germany, where many similiar type of books are printed in four color ink (they must be *very* expensive). Would anyone on the list know about specific titles? I would love to find more information. Thank you! Kim -- Kim Patrick Clow Early Music enthusiasts think outside the Bachs! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
David W. Fenton wrote: On 14 Nov 2008 at 8:28, dc wrote: [quoting http://www.minkoff-editions.com/musique_musicologie/pages/i- j.htm] this collection assembles in handy volumes, unencumbered by superfluous notes or de luxe presentation, I'm always suspicious of people who are suspicous of notes. Notes tell us things that we need to know and are usually not superfluous, except to those who want to remain unencumbered by facts. Cf. Urtext. That's a huge assumption you're making, David. Not all notes tell us things we need to know. I've seen notes accompanying images say things like The flute player is leering a the lovely young maiden dancing nearby. Which is obvious to anybody who is over the age of 5 and is certainly a superfluous note, added only to show that some original content was included in an otherwise uncopyrightable collection. Scholarly notes which don't simply describe the content are certainly worthwhile and welcome by most people, but don't assume that all notes are scholarly notes. Your assumption that all notes are scholarly notes is as bad as the assumption you are jumping on, which seems to imply that all notes are superfluous. However, the statement didn't say there were no notes at all, just that there are no superfluous notes. And notes often contain opinion, not facts, so your final statement about people who want to remain unencumbered by facts is uncalled for. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
On Nov 13, 2008, at 9:58 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Many people try to take the images literally, when they were never created that way. James McKinnon, who taught a course on this at SUNY Buffalo back in the '70s, made the important distinction of realistic, but not real. A major example of this is a famous painting of St. Cecilia at the organ, in which the lengths of the pipes increase linearly from low to high instead of exponentially from high to low. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
On 14 Nov 2008 at 9:04, dc wrote: David W. Fenton écrit: I'm always suspicious of people who are suspicous of notes. Notes tell us things that we need to know and are usually not superfluous, except to those who want to remain unencumbered by facts. The English language is such that unencumbered by superfluous notes can also mean that there are notes, but no superfluous ones. I'm always suspicious of one-way readings... But unencumbered has a clear connotation, as does superfuous. I think it unlikely given the clear bias against a certain kind of notes considered by the editor to be unnecessary, that there are any notes. Besides, one person's useless is another person's invaluable. I have always seen Minkoff as something of a non-scholarly publisher (more like a book or art dealer), and that line seems hostile to scholarship, or one of those cases of recasting what some would consider a drawback (no scholarly apparatus) as a plus (no editorial interference). Prove me wrong, Dennis -- show me that there are notes, and that this is not an example of commercial promotion (i.e., advertising speak) at the expense of academic rigor. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
On 14 Nov 2008 at 6:04, dhbailey wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 14 Nov 2008 at 8:28, dc wrote: [quoting http://www.minkoff-editions.com/musique_musicologie/pages/i- j.htm] this collection assembles in handy volumes, unencumbered by superfluous notes or de luxe presentation, I'm always suspicious of people who are suspicous of notes. Notes tell us things that we need to know and are usually not superfluous, except to those who want to remain unencumbered by facts. Cf. Urtext. That's a huge assumption you're making, David. Well, I'm making it in response to a sentence that is written in a way that betrays a clear agenda *against* something (though it's at least arguably ambiguous whether it's against bad notes or against any notes at all). Not all notes tell us things we need to know. I've seen notes accompanying images say things like The flute player is leering a the lovely young maiden dancing nearby. Which is obvious to anybody who is over the age of 5 and is certainly a superfluous note, added only to show that some original content was included in an otherwise uncopyrightable collection. I don't know that what you say is true, even with the example you're given. Leering could be something that is not obvious to a modern viewer, if, for instance, an image partakes of certain conventional tropes in depicting the expression. The writer of the notes might in that case be pinning down the expression based on information about what tradition the image is a part of. Of course there can be useless notes that just recapitulate what's obvious to the viewer. But I read the Minkoff notice as being an attempt to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear -- they've got this publication they are trying to sell and it lacks any notes, so they make that into a virtue rather than a drawback. Scholarly notes which don't simply describe the content are certainly worthwhile and welcome by most people, but don't assume that all notes are scholarly notes. Your assumption that all notes are scholarly notes is as bad as the assumption you are jumping on, which seems to imply that all notes are superfluous. I'm reading what seems to me to be a very clear subtext. I also know something of the kind of facsimiles this particular publisher produces and they tend to be less scholarly than many others. This is not to say that Minkoff is not an essential publisher, just that they don't apply the same standards of scholarship that other music facsimile publishers do. If I had to trade their non-scholarly publications for none at all, I'd definitely take the publications. But I also wish they didn't veer so close to the edge of dilettantism. However, the statement didn't say there were no notes at all, just that there are no superfluous notes. If there were actual notes, I think they would have been described positively, with words like concise and on point and some such. But you could be right, I guess. And notes often contain opinion, not facts, so your final statement about people who want to remain unencumbered by facts is uncalled for. There's nothing wrong with informed opinion. Everyone is against bad notes. But the text from the Minkoff website doesn't really tell you much about what's in the publication on the subject of notes, does it? That's a problem, seems to me, as you don't really *know* from the description whether or not there are any notes or not, because of the weaselly fashion in which the subject is addressed. Because of that, my guess is that it's very likely a silk purse/sow's ear situation. If it's not, then it's a case of not very competent promotional copy, since the implications in the negative direction are stronger than any positive reading. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
On 14 Nov 2008 at 21:37, dc wrote: David W. Fenton écrit: Prove me wrong, Dennis -- show me that there are notes, and that this is not an example of commercial promotion (i.e., advertising speak) at the expense of academic rigor. Well, I have Edmund Bowles' volume on the Middle Ages. But the Minkoff website comment is *not* about that volume, but about a different one. He is a renowned scholar. All the iconography has notes - identifying the exact source, the instruments seen, etc. And the other books I've seen are all the works of scholars specialized in the field in question (the ballet de cour, for instance). But, if you're out to damn them without knowing anything about these books, I'm afraid I can't help you. Maybe they just need to write their promotional copy more carefully so as to not imply certain subtexts. I don't know. Maybe the Lesure volume is like the ones you've seen and maybe it's not. The problem with the promotional copy is that YOU CAN'T TELL. I was hoping that WorldCat might help, but it's only in once: http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/251860447 and with no annotations at all to show if there are notes or not. Perhaps someone could look at the original French on the website and determine if, perhaps, the English is a mistranslation, in which case, I've promoted a tempest in a teapot. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
Hi there: Well the book I have is full of notes with excerpts from diaries or court accounts of the event shown in the illustrations. Christopher Hogwood wrote some introductory notes for this vol, and I believe Philip Pickett uses the chapter on triumphant processions as an source for his recreations of these events during his concerts in London at the Globe Theater. Thanks much everyone ;) Kim On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 3:49 PM, dc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dc écrit: David W. Fenton écrit: Prove me wrong, Dennis -- show me that there are notes, and that this is not an example of commercial promotion (i.e., advertising speak) at the expense of academic rigor. Well, I have Edmund Bowles' volume on the Middle Ages. He is a renowned scholar. All the iconography has notes - identifying the exact source, the instruments seen, etc. And the other books I've seen are all the works of scholars specialized in the field in question (the ballet de cour, for instance). But, if you're out to damn them without knowing anything about these books, I'm afraid I can't help you. There's also a long introduction, with 16 very scholarly footnotes. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Kim Patrick Clow Early Music enthusiasts think outside the Bachs! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
On 14 Nov 2008 at 21:49, dc wrote: dc écrit: David W. Fenton écrit: Prove me wrong, Dennis -- show me that there are notes, and that this is not an example of commercial promotion (i.e., advertising speak) at the expense of academic rigor. Well, I have Edmund Bowles' volume on the Middle Ages. He is a renowned scholar. All the iconography has notes - identifying the exact source, the instruments seen, etc. And the other books I've seen are all the works of scholars specialized in the field in question (the ballet de cour, for instance). But, if you're out to damn them without knowing anything about these books, I'm afraid I can't help you. There's also a long introduction, with 16 very scholarly footnotes. In which volume? The Lesure or the Bowles? I don't understand what the Bowles has to do with the question of whether or not the Lesure has notes or not. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
On 14 Nov 2008 at 22:02, dc wrote: David W. Fenton écrit: Well, I have Edmund Bowles' volume on the Middle Ages. But the Minkoff website comment is *not* about that volume, but about a different one. Yes it is. It was in the list I sent of the Minkoff series. OK, I didn't understand the website. Since there *are* notes in some of the volumes, the descriptive text is really bad writing, seems to me. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
At 2:03 PM -0500 11/14/08, Andrew Stiller wrote: James McKinnon, who taught a course on this at SUNY Buffalo back in the '70s, made the important distinction of realistic, but not real. A major example of this is a famous painting of St. Cecilia at the organ, in which the lengths of the pipes increase linearly from low to high instead of exponentially from high to low. Ah, but that's because the artist needed a diagonal line going in that direction! But exponential? I don't think so. Or perhaps I don't understand how exponential applies in this case. And of course the portatif organ she's often shown with didn't exist in her time, but did exist in the artists' times! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
Hi everyone: A friend has let me borrow a book called Musical Ensembles in Festival Books: 1500 - 1800. by Edmund A. Bowles. It must have hundreds of woodcuts and drawings from original sources, that I've never seen before-- and I've read a lot of music history books. It's really impressive. I was told the study of musical iconography is an area of study, primarily in Germany, where many similiar type of books are printed in four color ink (they must be *very* expensive). Would anyone on the list know about specific titles? I would love to find more information. Thank you! Kim -- Kim Patrick Clow Early Music enthusiasts think outside the Bachs! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
Very interesting! Does it happen to have any images of string quartets in it? Johannes On 13.11.2008 Kim Patrick Clow wrote: A friend has let me borrow a book called Musical Ensembles in Festival Books: 1500 - 1800. by Edmund A. Bowles. It must have hundreds of woodcuts and drawings from original sources, that I've never seen before-- and I've read a lot of music history books. It's really impressive. I was told the study of musical iconography is an area of study, primarily in Germany, where many similiar type of books are printed in four color ink (they must be *very* expensive). Would anyone on the list know about specific titles? I would love to find more information. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
I'll check, but this book seems to be centered around Festivals related to coronations and other occassions for nobility and royality. If I find anything I'll let you know. Oh I heard your Haydn Trios CD, very nice ;) Thanks Kim On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Johannes Gebauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very interesting! Does it happen to have any images of string quartets in it? Johannes On 13.11.2008 Kim Patrick Clow wrote: A friend has let me borrow a book called Musical Ensembles in Festival Books: 1500 - 1800. by Edmund A. Bowles. It must have hundreds of woodcuts and drawings from original sources, that I've never seen before-- and I've read a lot of music history books. It's really impressive. I was told the study of musical iconography is an area of study, primarily in Germany, where many similiar type of books are printed in four color ink (they must be *very* expensive). Would anyone on the list know about specific titles? I would love to find more information. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Kim Patrick Clow Early Music enthusiasts think outside the Bachs! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Hi everyone: A friend has let me borrow a book called Musical Ensembles in Festival Books: 1500 - 1800. by Edmund A. Bowles. The Utrecht University Library has this book: see http://aleph.library.uu.nl/F/F31NKQ8CRPPBYUQR2MGCLY9E1X6VKJ9RAKTA4KAGNVLCQPVLGP-02214?func=find-accacc_sequence=003630971 (I hope this link will work). I live in Bilthoven, very clodr to Utrecht, 20 minutes by bus, so if someone wants me to make (black and white) photocopies, I can. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
That's the book I have, I appreciate your finding that ;) Are there other books in German that cover this same type of topic/material with full color plates? Thanks again! Kim On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Barbara Touburg [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Hi everyone: A friend has let me borrow a book called Musical Ensembles in Festival Books: 1500 - 1800. by Edmund A. Bowles. The Utrecht University Library has this book: see http://aleph.library.uu.nl/F/F31NKQ8CRPPBYUQR2MGCLY9E1X6VKJ9RAKTA4KAGNVLCQPVLGP-02214?func=find-accacc_sequence=003630971 (I hope this link will work). I live in Bilthoven, very clodr to Utrecht, 20 minutes by bus, so if someone wants me to make (black and white) photocopies, I can. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Kim Patrick Clow Early Music enthusiasts think outside the Bachs! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
Kim Patrick Clow wrote: That's the book I have, I appreciate your finding that ;) Are there other books in German that cover this same type of topic/material with full color plates? Thanks again! Kim I suppose you'd better ask Johannes! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Hi everyone: A friend has let me borrow a book called Musical Ensembles in Festival Books: 1500 - 1800. by Edmund A. Bowles. It must have hundreds of woodcuts and drawings from original sources, that I've never seen before-- and I've read a lot of music history books. It's really impressive. I was told the study of musical iconography is an area of study, primarily in Germany, where many similiar type of books are printed in four color ink (they must be *very* expensive). Would anyone on the list know about specific titles? I would love to find more information. I don't know about specific titles, but I know where to look for more info. Doing a Firstsearch lookup on the author, I readily found the title, and doing a lookup on the LC cataloging number resulted in quite an interesting array of nearly the greater part of 400 items (cf. http://newfirstsearch.oclc.org/WebZ/FSQUERY?sessionid=fsapp6-44175-fni0ygan-n68xlo:entitypagenum=4:0:next=html/records.html:bad=html/records.html:format=BI:numrecs=10:indexh1=:termh1=lc%3AML85:dbname=WorldCat:searchtype=hotlc) ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
On 13 Nov 2008 at 17:02, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: A friend has let me borrow a book called Musical Ensembles in Festival Books: 1500 - 1800. by Edmund A. Bowles. It must have hundreds of woodcuts and drawings from original sources, that I've never seen before-- and I've read a lot of music history books. It's really impressive. I was told the study of musical iconography is an area of study, primarily in Germany, where many similiar type of books are printed in four color ink (they must be *very* expensive). Would anyone on the list know about specific titles? I would love to find more information. Music iconography is an area rife will all sorts of bad scholarship. Many people try to take the images literally, when they were never created that way. For instance, just because two people are depicted together in an image doesn't mean they ever met, or that they were ever in the same place at the same time. It doesn't even mean that even one of them was ever at the depicted place/event. Likewise with musical instruments and playing technique. Many artists were quite indifferent to getting the details right, and even for artists who tried to be accurate in their depictions, some would use conventionalized renderings of instruments/playing positions because they weren't so much depicting what was represented as they were creating an instance in a long line of representations of a certain subject. These two problems were endemic to much of the early iconographic scholarship (before 20-30 years ago). I don't know if things are vastly improved now, but at least most of the work in the field that I've seen is no longer the amateurish work that was emblematic of the field not long ago. Also, CUNY many years ago under the direction of Barry Brook tried to create an music iconography reference (a RISM of images), but the project was so huge it was never finished. I expect the images that were collected are available for perusal at CUNY, but probably only with special permission. I have no real contacts there, but you could start here: http://web.gc.cuny.edu/rcmi/ I don't know if the materials they have are cataloged in a way that makes it possible to just walk in and use their collection, or if it's more of an ad hoc thing. But it's certainly a place to start serious research in iconography if you're in the area (as you are, Kim). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
On 13.11.2008 Kim Patrick Clow wrote: I'll check, but this book seems to be centered around Festivals related to coronations and other occassions for nobility and royality. If I find anything I'll let you know. Oh I heard your Haydn Trios CD, very nice ;) Thanks, we are bringing out J.L.Dussek's string quartets in a world premiere in the next few weeks, which I am very excited about. They are fab. Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Iconography in Music History
On 14 Nov 2008 at 8:28, dc wrote: [quoting http://www.minkoff-editions.com/musique_musicologie/pages/i- j.htm] this collection assembles in handy volumes, unencumbered by superfluous notes or de luxe presentation, I'm always suspicious of people who are suspicous of notes. Notes tell us things that we need to know and are usually not superfluous, except to those who want to remain unencumbered by facts. Cf. Urtext. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
